To Eve:

It probably doesn't sound like it, but I am still in Baker's corner. I said he should get the season to show something significant to continue building around him, but the Pitt game is a large argument to the contrary. He'll get 10 more chances to prove that was a fluke (my hope).

I find it odd or funny that Baker landed in the most dysfunctional franchise in the NFL - he's on his 4th HC and he hasn't completed 2 1/2 seasons of football. He's on his 3rd play caller / OC. He set a record for rookie TD's in his first year before Freddie took over as HC with his culture that seemed to be a mixture of arrogance and unpreparedness and unprofessionalism and added to Baker's own failings and short comings with last year's woeful performances. Yes Freddie simplified and made the offense sing in 2018 when he took over Haley's scheme - then he *seems* to have decided he was smarter than everyone, abandoned what worked for his scheme in 2019.

Rosen and Darnold went to bad teams but have not faced these same challenges - and both seemed to have failed as starters in the NFL, without touching or showing the same ability/potential/ceiling Baker did in 2018..... and yet it seems to be a thing where posters in the other thread that's now locked think those 2 have more/better potential than Baker? I just don't get it.

This is what I posted b4 and probably needs to be my last take for a few weeks on Baker while things play out:

I think it's perfectly rational and reasonable to say that Baker:

[1] clearly has issues reading the D pre-snap when the D tries to confuse him - that he needs to continue to show and speed up going thru progressions when his 1st option is covered - needs to continue to get better at moving the safeties with his eyes - continue the pocket awareness and stop leaving clean pockets

[2] At the same time, also say that against Pit/Ravens, he wasn't given a chance to succeed because the whole team was totally overmatched. Personally I think there are few QB's that would have had success and none would have got the win - just look at Rogers when he was also put under similar pressure. AND - Acknowledge he's not been put into a stable situation to succeed AND he's not been coached in a stable environment give him a chance to reach his full potential.

He's shown flashes of elite arm talent. He's shown consistent flaws. I'm not yet prepared to anoint him a bust and I am not going to say all his issues are coachable - there is a certain amount of innate mental ability to process the game and read what's happening *at a speed that is required at an elite level*. What we don't know is with a consistent environment and team around him, what is his ceiling regards the mental aspect of the game?

I mentioned elsewhere - the NFL has seen the blueprint on how to beat Baker with pressure and disguised coverages .... we should get ample opportunity to see if he can get better because every defense we face should be doing both things to the best of their ability for the remainder of the year.

Jc

We are 4 and 2. Stop throwing Baker under the bus. The losses we had were TEAM LOSSES.

Pointing out flaws is not the same thing as throwing him under the bus.

I'm not holding anything in this past game against him. I've had bruised ribs and I couldnt imagine taking the hits he did within a week of sustaining the injury. He was wincing in pain after that first hit. They should have pulled him right then. There's no way anyone could not let that kind of pain affect their play.

I agree to an extent the loss is not on Baker, but he was a large contributor. He didn't help at all.

I have held out hope for Baker. I have seen flashes of a Franchise QB, but no consistency. I can't think of one game where Baker faced an elite team and showcased himself. We need to face it, he is just not that great.

I saw a QB who is gun shy, scared, and not able to process his reads quick enough to make a decision. We have 2 of the best receivers in the game of football on our team, and all we could muster was 119 yards passing? I know there was immense pressure and our OL laid an egg, but that is on Baker. He needs to understand this and get the ball out quickly. When his first read is not open, he either throws it anyway, or just holds it and doesn't know what to do. Heck, just throw it away, or just get it in the vicinity or Landry or Beckham and give them a chance.

If Baker is still "learning the offense" then he needs to be benched and Keenan needs to start. Let him "learn" for a few games and put him back. Baker is costing us games at this point, and hasn't really had a great game yet this season. I'm quickly losing hope he is the answer.

Baker will have the rest of the season to show what he has. I hope he makes great strides and becomes the best QB in history. Will he?
One thing is for sure, once the NFL gets an inkling of your weaknesses,they use them.
Did Pitt show the rest of the league the map? Maybe.

I had a fractured (non-displaced) rib many years ago, and could not even breathe without incredible pain. I could not sleep without pain. It was awful.

So you're blaming Baker for not being perfect because he is still learning a new offense when he is on his 4th HC in 3 years, there was no offseason or preseason, and the rest of the team is trying to catch up as well.

And still we are 4 and 2.

Got it.

I think he knows the offense - I just don't agree that he has cost us wins. Ravens dominated us ... Pittsburgh made us their lil bitches for 60 minutes. Both were team losses.

j/c:

One of the biggest concerns is how is the locker room going to react to what's happening. There are players on this team who are real "ballers," yet they are being held back due to Baker's deficiencies. Then, those same players see him plastered all over TV on commercial after commercial. Progressive, Hula, the Heisman house...I think that is Nissan. And he can't even pull his weight on the field.

Then, you have social media and sports talk radio and people are focusing on absurd things like OBJ's shoes. They blame the OL. They blame the coaches. They blame the D. And say that we need to be patient w/Baker.

I've been in locker rooms. That doesn't play out well w/the brotherhood. I am NOT blaming Baker for any of that, other than he has sucked. Playing in a new offense isn't why he can't read coverages or exploit blitzes. I've seen similar situations play out time and time again. Blaming others for the shortcomings of others hurts the camaraderie of the team. I wonder if anyone has even considered that if Baker had played better, he might not be on his 4th HC? Even more crazy is that some want to ship OBJ out.

Your reasoning is a bunch of bs.

I do not think anyone cares if Baker makes commercials. Nor does anyone care about OBJ shoes. Its a bunch of fluff for weak minded fans to chew on.

We are 4 and 2. We lost to 2 teams with established dominant schemes and systems.

We lost because we are still learning how to win.

They are TEAM LOSSES.

Stop throwing Baker under the bus.

I'll do as I wish. And I already have said it was a team loss.

The only way any of that affects the locker room is if Baker isn't owning his poor play.

Baker's attitude in the locker room is what matters...not commercials, not talking heads, not Twitter. Baker deserves a lot of criticism for his play. But unless he's an absolute arse off the field on top of that, I don't think we need to kick a guy when he's down and add this to his list of cons as well.

I'm not kicking him when he is down, but I have been in locker rooms. I have know professional athletes. I think some old timers around here remember when I used to share stories from two players and one coach from the Browns. I understand the dynamics of a locker room. You don't have to believe me, but I'm not talking out my butt when I say ballers now ballers and they put a ton of emphasis on the coin.

I could have sworn I said I didn't blame Baker for that stuff when I replied to Eve? Did I leave that out? Or, are you just ignoring it to start another argument?

I'm not trying to pick a fight nor am I trying to engage in an argument.

Quite honestly I'm pretty depressed over the realization that we are still in search of a QB.

We are 4-2 and I couldn't be less excited about watching the game this weekend.

I hate this feeling.

Okay, sorry.

I just wanted to clarify I wasn't blaming Baker for the mindset of some fans, advertisers, and talk radio. I don't blame him for getting it while he can.

I've had broken ribs before. Not fun at all. In fact, if the CIA were to call me and ask me how to get a Isis terrorist to talk, I'd tell them a couple hard whacks to the ribs with a baseball bat.. wait a couple days till it's nice and tender then show the terrorist a small jar of sneezing powder... he'll babble his brains out.

Now try to toss a football.

Hey bro..............here is the thing. I think Baker is a tough guy. I admire his moxie. I admire that gutted it out and played w/the bad ribs. There are not many injuries that are more painful. Sneezing causes intense pain.

I don't question Baker's toughness. I have also admired how he has kept his mouth shut this year instead of bashing people. No personality issues this year.

But, his ribs aren't causing his inability to read coverages. They aren't causing his inability recognize where the blitz is coming from and where to throw it to exploit the blitz. Those are mental issues rather than physical.

ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky: Browns shouldn't give up on Baker, but he and the team have work to do

https://www.news5cleveland.com/sports/br...have-work-to-do


By: Camryn JusticePosted at 2:04 PM, Oct 20, 2020 and last updated 2:28 PM, Oct 20, 2020
CLEVELAND — Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield had a rough time in Pittsburgh during Sunday's 38-7 loss. His less-than-ideal performance drew the ire of fans who are now questioning whether Mayfield is the guy for the job. Former NFL quarterback and current ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky says now is not the time to panic.

Orlovsky said that while there are clear concerns about Mayfield’s deficiencies, such as adjusting his defensive reads pre-snap versus post-snap, there are ways to improve those issues and for the Browns to remain confident in the player they chose as their franchise quarterback.

What Baker Mayfield can do
When you go back and watch some of the questionable (or downright awful) throws Mayfield has made this season, one thing stands out about almost all of them—his eyes.

The way Mayfield reads the field and reads defenses is great pre-snap, but post-snap, he struggles. Take, for example, the interception thrown to the Steelers’ safety Minkah Fitzpatrick on Sunday.

team have work to do
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Photo by: Gene J. Puskar/AP
(AP Photo/Gene J. Puskar)
By: Camryn JusticePosted at 2:04 PM, Oct 20, 2020 and last updated 2:28 PM, Oct 20, 2020
CLEVELAND — Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield had a rough time in Pittsburgh during Sunday's 38-7 loss. His less-than-ideal performance drew the ire of fans who are now questioning whether Mayfield is the guy for the job. Former NFL quarterback and current ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky says now is not the time to panic.

Orlovsky said that while there are clear concerns about Mayfield’s deficiencies, such as adjusting his defensive reads pre-snap versus post-snap, there are ways to improve those issues and for the Browns to remain confident in the player they chose as their franchise quarterback.

Recent Stories from news5cleveland.com

What Baker Mayfield can do
When you go back and watch some of the questionable (or downright awful) throws Mayfield has made this season, one thing stands out about almost all of them—his eyes.

The way Mayfield reads the field and reads defenses is great pre-snap, but post-snap, he struggles. Take, for example, the interception thrown to the Steelers’ safety Minkah Fitzpatrick on Sunday.


Breaking down the game on ESPN’s “Get Up,” Orlovsky noted that while Mayfield read the defense correctly pre-snap—seeing an open midfield—post-snap, Fitzpatrick came down rather than dropping back. If Mayfield had adjusted and read the defense correctly post-snap, he may have seen Odell Beckham Jr. open on the outside slant and would have avoided the interception.

Orlovsky said that Mayfield’s eyes are his biggest flaw, adding that eyes are something all quarterbacks spend their careers improving, and while no one ever perfects theirs, they can get better.

The first step is making sure Mayfield is seeing the whole field clearly while not trying to focus on any one thing at a time, all while understanding the way a defense moves.

“First of all, you have to understand that you don't want quarterbacks to really see people. You want them to see movement and color and rotation. If you focus on one person, you're going to see nothing. You want to see everything,” Orlovsky said. “And so it's really trying to teach quarterbacks that they have to have a 30,000-foot view rather than an up-close and personal interaction. And so once you try to see everything, you'll see nothing. You know, it's very vice-versa. You want to see everything by not focusing on anything.”

Orlovsky said that Mayfield, if he doesn’t already, has to have a firm grasp on the inner workings of how a defense moves together, comparing it to a dial and how the parts move together when you turn it one way or the other.

The second step is “cutting the fat off plays” to make them very simple. The play-action offense that Mayfield thrives under is good for that, Orlovsky said, but it comes with a downside.

“When you're a play action-based offense, one of the benefits is you don't really need to know the coverage. You're turning your back to the defense. You're making a play fake. It's a progression offense after that—one to two to three,” Orlovsky said. “Cover 1, Cover 2—you've got to find the areas where you're going to throw the football or find the person that you have to see where they are. So: ‘Cover 2 or Cover 3— I don't care—I’ve just got to find the area where I want to throw the ball. Who's the person that could take that away?’ So that's part of the benefit of play-action passing.”

The downside to running play-action is it leaves the quarterback vulnerable to lacking good eye discipline when it comes to post-snap reads, which is what Mayfield has been struggling with.

Orlovsky said that Mayfield could benefit from replicating what he himself saw while playing under Texans head coach Gary Kubiak and behind Matt Schaub in 2009.

“I used to sit in meetings with Gary Kubiak Saturday night before the game," he said. "He would go to Matt Schaub, our starting quarterback, and say, ‘What's your read on stick dragon and Schuab has to be like, 'Alright, if I get two-high safeties, I'm working the stick outside-in, got to be aware of the corner and squat Cover 2 look. Middle field closed, I'm going to work the drag to the slant or the slant to the drag. The only time that I would work the drag right now in a middle-field open defense is if it was Cover 4 and I hated my leverage and I could just outflank a MIKE.'"

“You've got to get to the point as a quarterback where you know that like the backside of your hand, like it's breathing."

A quarterback must have a maniacal obsession with preparation and walk-throughs. He has to consistently think through what he would do in changing defensive situations, and he has to know those changes like he’s the person calling the play.

What Kevin Stefanski can do

Orlovsky believes that Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski has the ability to help improve Mayfield based on his well-rounded coaching background across different positions. What Stefanski needs to focus on, Orlovsky said, is getting Mayfield’s feet into a rhythm.

“Sometimes when Stefanski dials up plays, number one is going to be there. It's going to be there and you let it rip, and that's where Baker's at his best. If number one's not there, you've got to listen to your feet, and your feet don't have to be fast. Your feet can just be rhythmic,” Orlovsky said. “When number one's not there for Baker right now, his feet become panicky. When your feet become panicky, your eyes become panicky. When your eyes become panicky, your thoughts become panicky. And so you really just want rhythm out of his feet.”

Orlovsky said Stefanski and his coaching staff can be vigilant about Mayfield’s reads, his knowledge of the playbook and his understanding of the game.

“If I'm them, I'm maniacal with it. Baker does not get a single second at practice off. You don't get a second at practice off. We're either walking through things or talking through things. And maybe that's the case. I don't know. But he's not allowed to stand. We are constantly working on the small things of this offense,” Orlovsky said.

What the fans should expect

Three seasons into his career, it’s clear Mayfield is a far different quarterback than the superstars across the league at the position, but he can grow into a reliable, successful talent.

Four head coaches in three years isn’t going to benefit any quarterback, let alone one with the pressure of being the first-round draft pick coming onto a team that has burned through a catalog of quarterbacks looking for “the one.”

Orlovsky compared Mayfield to Washington Football Team’s quarterback Alex Smith, who has had a solid career built on continuity and noted the slack he got while growing as a player.

“A great correlation is Alex Smith on all the turnover that Alex went through as the first pick in the draft of the 49ers and all the turnover and change that he went through,” Orlovsky said. “‘Oh, Alex Smith sucks. He's never going to be anything, blah, blah, blah.' Well, no, continuity is one of the greatest forms, signs or foreshadowings of success for a young quarterback.”

If Mayfield can be consistent, he can be successful, especially for the Browns, who have added high-grade talent to surround him.

Orlovsky said that, no, Mayfield will not be a Patrick Mahomes or a Lamar Jackson or an Aaron Rodgers, but that doesn’t mean the Browns are doomed.

“The San Francisco 49ers, because of a good football team and a great coaching staff, went to the Super Bowl with a good player at the quarterback position. And so we have kind of gotten into this place, and I kind of get there myself sometimes, that we think the only way to do it is with the absolute superstar talent. There's other ways to do it,” Orlovsky said. “Quarterbacks can be just really good players, and I think Baker Mayfield can still be a really good player with good coaching and good people around him.

“Is he ever going to carry a football team? I can't say that right now. Can he ever be a really important piece on a good team? Yes."

So to the fans ready to give up on Mayfield and restart the search for a franchise quarterback, Orlovsky says this: “It's not time to consider Baker Mayfield as a bust.”

Mayfield has now had just 89 days to work with Stefanski, to mesh with his offensive scheme and to correct the mistakes and bad habits acquired last season. He needs time to improve—time that the team, and the fans, have to give him, Orlovsky said.

“It's not time to move on from him as your starting quarterback. You've got to see him fix the things that are holding him back from growth and development. That's it. And if you see incremental steps, you're encouraged. And if you don't, then the question never leaves.”

Interesting in regards to how the author represents Orlovsky's comments.

Someone who doesn't like Baker could present those comments in a completely different light.

Good read.

I've been hammering on this, but this is really what everything hinges on, for me.

"Orlovsky said that Mayfield’s eyes are his biggest flaw, adding that eyes are something all quarterbacks spend their careers improving, and while no one ever perfects theirs, they can get better."

His biggest flaw is something that's possible to improve.

I think his height has a little to do with it as well, which is tougher to improve.

It just seems like he can’t either:
A) process what he’s seeing quickly
B) literally see what he’s trying to see
C) not trusting anything
D) a mixture of all of them

"... which is tougher to improve."

lol

The team is 4-2. I picked them to end up 8-8 in the season prediction thread. Being without Chubb for a big chunk of the season doesn't help the team, let alone Baker...so I didn't factor that in. Having a rookie LT who's never played LT WAS a factor for me though. Having NO pre-season in a NEW offensive scheme, and a new HC, and a NEW QB coach, and a NEW OC was a factor for me.

That said, Baker has issues that aren't attributable to these factors, but they are complicating factors nonetheless. It surprises me to see that his QBR is higher than Jared Goff's, Tom Brady's, and Ben Roethlisberger's at this point, but I'm not even sure what all that entails, but since this is a "Baker Comparisons" thread I guess it should be considered.

And watching people meltdown over a QB that came into an organization that was 1-31 upon his arrival, who is currently 4-2, with 17 wins in his 2 1/4 seasons currently is high entertainment.

Jc

Not gonna lie, if I’m Andrew Berry, I’m SERIOUSLY thinking about trading for Matt Ryan now that the falcons are shopping him and Julio.

I’ve kept quiet about bakers terrible performance last Sunday because he’s hurt, but man.....

Matt Ryan would be THE upgrade we need for us to make a deep run with this team. We got the run game, the OL, and the receivers.

Meltdown? LOL

I love when fans of one player start rooting for our team because of one player and then trash our team and it's fans. Even better is when Baker's wife calls Browns fans front-runners and idiots.

j/c

After reading this thread it seems perspective is quite lacking. First, this is the NFL and not Little League baseball. Some people act as though people who break down Bakers game are attacking a small child. That's simply not the case.

There are certain professions people choose to enter that bring constant analysis. Professional sports is one of those career paths. They get paid millions of dollars to place themselves under the microscope. It's part of the territory.

I've seen most people try to break down Bakers game. The fact is, he isn't playing well. He has played well in spurts in other games. The same can't be said for last weekend. Even in the spurts where he has played well there are still gaps in his game.

I'm not going to get into what I think he did poorly. I've already stated that in the previous thread by the same name. The only thing about that I will say is he does very poorly at his post snap reads. To some extent I can see both sides of it. We do have some posters who beat on the topic over and over and over again like beating on a drum on top of a dead horse. I can see how that can become nauseating and grating.

I also see people making every excuse in the book for him and trying to undermine everyone who points out the things he does poorly. As has been stated, he doesn't see the field well post snap. That's just a fact.

When a person enters a field where you place yourself under the microscope you will see people looking through that microscope. In every profession you are graded and evaluated. This is nothing new. It's not an attempt to demean or degrade anyone. In fact, if you're not willing to take a stab at evaluating your team or your players, other than just shouting rah, rah, what are you doing here?

Baker isn't the entire problem on this team. Even playing well it would have been very hard for him to have ever have been the savior and pull out a win against the Steelers. There is a lot of blame to go around.

Playing hurt is certainly not a time to evaluate every aspect of his game. But even in that old childhood song, the rib bone isn't connected to the eye bone.

I read something about Blank not committing to Ryan being w/the team after this year. Is there new news out there that say he is available now?

Oh, and I didn't hear anything Julio. Trading him would be crazy.

That's a gross mischaracterization of the criticisms of Baker Mayfield as well as what has went into our 4-2 record.

Do you have Twitter? The hate for Baker is real. Browns fans tweeting crap to his wife about him. Some of the stuff tweeted at them makes you look like a fanboy.

j/c ironic that in the Baker thread *some* posters are trying to make it *appear* that they are fair and balanced and want Baker to succeed and give him a chance.

But in the 'Odell' thread - the entire woes of the offense and every position group is being held back because of Baker. No agenda right. LOL

Butt hurt Ohio State football fans...and I am an Ohio State fan.

Wait... are you trying to tell me that there are people on social media that act like keyboard warriors behind their computer screens?

How much do you think that population overlaps with the group of people that comment on weaknesses of his game after watching breakdown videos?

I have no idea. I do know rational people don’t tweet at Baker and his wife about his deficiencies.

No, I don't belong to Twitter, Facebook, etc. I assumed Trooper was talking about people on this board and most likely...me. About the only thing some people have left is to try and attack other poster's character. As if that will make Baker better. LOL

I can’t speak for Trooper but there is a lot of hate out there. I don’t see much on this website. I see a lot of criticism but most is warranted imo. I don’t blame Emily for what she said because I have seen some of the crap written to them.

I believe you. It's one of the reasons why I have never signed up w/Twitter. There are other reasons, but that is one of them.

I don't think posting stats and showing videos that break down Baker's reads and even saying things like I believe he is holding our offense back are even close to having a "meltdown," though. And it does bother me when people who were never fans of our team come in here and start bad-mouthing our team and our fans.

The game threads are where the certifiable posts occur. I don't recall bad-mouthing a fan here. Perhaps you could provide a post?

Large portions of the gameday thread do exist in an alternate dimension... that is certainly true. Fandom during the heat of battle is an amazing and horrifying thing.

Who was your question directed at? Are you asking for an example of an offending tweet at Baker and/or his wife?

I am going to apologize. I thought you meant threads like this one. I never participate in the Game Day threads once the game starts. I don't even read them later. I have read some Cavs' threads back in the day and I bet the Brown's Game Day threads probably get ugly.

I'm sorry. I honestly thought you were taking a cheap shot. I was mistaken.

IMHO, Baker has already spent his rookie season credit last year, and then some. Made too many rookie mistakes that have nothing to do with the amount of coaches, he is a slow learner, untalented player that does not work more than the guys who are better than him.

He should have been benched last year at the bye week, we would have been to the playoffs and probably with a viable starting QB this year to win the division.

Baker is by far the worst Qb in the division, and we need an elite QB to stand any chance for the next 5 years.

Baker needs to be benched because we face the real danger of losing the rest of the team if we don't...

.

LOL.........I have seen some of the college game day threads on here. It's brutal.

When I watch the Browns or Ohio State, I stay off the board. I like to focus my complete attention on the game. I post on the "Other Games" thread sometimes when there is a night game and I miss a bunch because I'm reading and/or typing. When I watch my teams, I want all my attention on the game.

Thanks for being cool about this, but I am still going to apologize again. I incorrectly interpreted your post. That's on me. I know you are a big Baker fan and that is cool, but you might want to avoid the Game Day threads. LOL They probably get crazy!!!

Btw--------P-Dawg is a straight shooter and he says that fans are tearing Baker and his wife up on Twitter. That's so freaking wrong. Football opinions are okay, but these people should not be subjected to personal attacks on their own Twitter accounts. That's classless.


Hmmmm............I just responded to your post, but yours is gone. Oh well...

Do you really believe Case Keenum would make us better? I'm not a Baker fan, but I have a hard time buying into that one.

Unfortunately I think Baker might be so broken that the answer to this is yes.

Keenum hitting Jarvis up the seam shortly after being inserted into the game was there all game. Baker didn't see it.

His brain is a scrambled mess right now.

I don't think Baker is good, but I would not bench him for Keenum. The only thing that would change that opinion is if he loses the locker room.

I think the interesting thing to watch is to see if the Browns pick-up his option next year. I don't really follow that part of the game and I might not have this right, but I could see them not doing that.

Maybe someone in the know can educate us on the particulars of that.

This is where I am at. Baker needs to be better.

Twitter is a cesspool of idiots. Weak minded people who found a place to trash people where there is no consequence. It is destroying society and dividing people on every topic. Much of what is reported in the news is coming from this cesspool. People make stuff up and once it is repeated enough, it is believed as fact. People are ruining others lives by posting false crap about them.

I remember when tweets were not allowed on this board because they were not reliable to be factual. Now they are used as facts, even when they are not true. What is sad is that people who use twitter think that it is representative of the whole population, when in reality, it is just a small sliver of the population.

That was really harsh. But again, former NFL players are saying that Baker is not a good qb and are talking about how it's going to be a problem for those in the locker room.

I'm so sick of it. I get that evaluating collegiate QBs is like picking straws out of a hat because the games are so different, but you would think that the Browns would get lucky just one freaking time.

I think one issue is that this is Baker's 3rd offense in 3 years. As a Qb learns an offense and it becomes 2nd nature to him, he'll know much more quickly where his read is. Do I have to see what the safety is doing or the Lb?

Think about learning a foreign language. You can be pretty good at it, then you find yourself in a loud bar with a bunch of native speakers talking really fast and you can't keep up. But as you learn the language better and become fluent you can.

What am I saying? Baker can get better with his reads as he learns the offense better
What I am not saying is that he will. With the language analogy, some people just never become fluent.
So I think that we should give Baker the season before we judge him too harshly.

This is not true. Reading coverages is reading coverages.

Agree to disagree

You've tried to explain this a couple times, but I still just can't wrap my brain around how getting other things nailed down WON'T help you read coverages during the play. I would think that having to think about your footwork and other QB technique you're working on plus still getting familiar with your receivers would eat up a bunch of that finite brain processing power. Only by getting those extra things down so that they're muscle memory can a QB fully utilize their brain for reading coverages and quickly reacting during a play.

Think about driving your car. When you started at age 16 your were completely reactive in your driving. A car cuts you off and you have to brake harder than what is comfortable.

Fast forward 10-15 years. You have so much more experience on the road. You see the way a car is driving and you can just tell that they are going to change lanes right in front of you without signaling, without looking. So you slow down. Now when they cut over as you can now predict, you barely have to brake.

They'll pick up his 5th year option after this season. It's only guaranteed if Baker is injured or he is still on the roster at the beginning of the league year of that fifth year.

It would be a complete distraction all next year if they did not. Especially, considering the likelihood the Browns make the playoffs. We know Baker can beat the bad and mediocre teams. The schedule is littered w/ such teams.

What I expect them not to do, is offer him the big contract extension even if we do make the playoffs.

I haven't watched this specific video, but Marcus Wiley, much like Cowherd, has a vested interest in Baker failing. They don't like him personally, and have trashed him consistently over the years. This outcome of Baker sucking validates them. They are going to beat this drum until there is no more mileage to get out of it.

Sadly, Baker could have put them in their place with his play.

Hot take - we don't make the playoffs this year.

Flame emojis!

I don't know if we will or not, but don't forget the expanded playoffs this year. In a typical year probably not. But with the extra (is it 1) team per conference, we might.

jc -

Just a general comment...I think there is a lot of validity to giving Baker more time. I even beat that drum before the beginning of the season. I said no matter what, don't turn on him. I think I had one caveat and that was all play was acceptable minus the wheels completely falling off...which brings me to this next point...

I get the feeling that people on this board either don't watch all Browns games or if they do, don't watch much football beyond the Browns. I watch nearly every game every weekend...and I can confidently say that the wheels are falling off. It's hard to put into words how bad Baker is, but it's really, really bad.

It's the kind of bad that you don't come back from. It's Trubisky bad. For those who do watch a lot of football and are familiar with Trubisky, they are basically the same player. And Trubisky is less than a year away from never being a starter again.

I hope he proves me wrong and can turn it around, but if that is even remotely possible it won't be with the Browns. It will be on another team after a couple years of sitting if he can use that time to get his brain unscrambled.

It's uber important that Berry and company have some type of plan because this team has too much talent to not get competent QB play over the next few years.

I did not know that. Thanks.

Thank you for the info.

I started to get snarky and say you can believe football experts like Jester, device, and 888 or believe me.............but I won't go there. LOL........even though I just did.

Serious answer. Reading coverages is based off of what the defense is doing. You make pre-snap and post-snap reads. I'm not sure how much more clear Orlovsky's breakdown of Baker's pick six could be, but if you are legit in wanting me to try and explain more...........I will.

If this is just about defending Baker..........then you can side w/guys like Jester, 888, eotab, and device. And I have no problem w/that. We are all entitled to our opinions. Let me know if you want o be educated or if you are just debating me.

I think we stand a great chance of being victims of one of the NFL's poison pills because of the strength of our division.

This is where beating teams like the Colts and hopefully the Raiders will be significant in tiebreaks. Owning the head-to-head win in the event of a tied record is huge (obviously).

I play ice hockey. I've played since grade school, but I was always a goalie. When I finished school and started playing mens league, I started skating out (as a forward, defenseman... not a goalie). As a goalie, you stay in your crease and stop pucks... but when you skate out, you're skating and handling the puck and passing, shooting, etc.

Playing as long as I did, I was a very good skater. It took a couple games to get used to skating in not-goalie skates, but that was fine. I was one of the fastest skaters on my team, and probably the fastest defensemen in my particular mens league. I was also pretty decent with the puck on my stick. My buddies and I would goof around in shoes passing the puck back and forth.

Then I'd get on the ice in a game, and I'd have to skate, handle the puck, and make plays. I looked like I'd never played before. All of those individual skills that I was good at (at least, when doing them independently) weren't muscle memory yet. I had to think about doing each one, and when I was trying to do all of them simultaneously, it was too much. Even skating, which was my strength, wasn't as automatic as it should've been because I hadn't been doing it that way (skating out versus moving within the crease) for very long.


That's what I think about when I see Baker do stuff like throw it right to the FS.

Okay.

Which is why people need to understand the significance of my ^post^. We could own both tiebreakers you mentioned and miss the playoffs because ties within a division are resolved first - and the loser takes a hike.

That's an interesting analogy, especially from my vantage point - a guy who can't even look at ice without slipping.

I do have to imagine that there will be a lot of safety movement in our next few games, post-snap. It's an area where Baker has really struggled. He threw the INT to Fitzpatrick when he moved from his cover two spot into the box after the snap.

He also threw an INT against the Bengals when the safety (can't remember his name) did the opposite, and that was all pre-snap, so it should have been easier to notice.

I do suppose one could make the argument that Baker is not as familiar in this new offense and needs to devote more focus on his receivers and where they are going, versus the defender and where they are going. However, defenses are going to disguise their coverage and move DBs around in hopes of removing his primary read because it greatly increases the chances of him throwing an INT. If he wants to keep them honest, he will need to identify this. It could come down to how he scans the field, but I have to say that it concerns me that we haven't seen much progress on this front.

That's not to say I'm writing him off or don't think he should be the starter or given the chance. I'm just very anxious about his development in this area.

Hey 05, knowing the offense isn't related to reading pre and post-snap coverages. The issues created by having a new O are in regards to timing and anticipation. Reading coverages is completely different. Also, I don't think the concerns about the newness is even relevant at this point in the season. Hell, we've seen this offense execute crisply many times. The problems always come when Baker isn't reading defenses, whether it be pre or post-snap.

I've mentioned this a couple of times, but it doesn't seem to be getting much run. Expect teams to start blitzing us a lot because Baker is doing a poor job of recognizing and defeating the blitz. This is a copy-cat league and Pittsburgh exposed yet another weakness. Look for the OL to receive the brunt of the blame.

I would expect teams to TRY to replicate what Pittsburgh did, but not all of them have the horses to do so. Teams can try to do that, but won't be able to contain the run game.

Taking that and looking ahead, we end up being a team that looks fantastic against bad-mediocre teams, but then struggles mightily when we have to face someone tougher (like most of our division).

I think this is one of those things that sounds really simple/obvious, but needs to be said. We've been arguing the whole new offense thing, but in terms of this season, the longer we go the lesser this argument is relevant.

Guess I just wanted to say I had to read that in order to realize it.

Hey Vers, I agree with you. I was trying to frame it in a way where I tried to identify the logic I think others were using when they were making assertions about the offense affecting Baker's motions in reading the field, but I didn't communicate that clearly. Him trying to watch how the routes develop and where the receivers are going was the only remotely tangible way I could see the new offense affecting Baker not appropriately reading coverage, but to call it a stretch would be an understatement.

I wasn't chastising you, but instead, simply using your commentary as a vehicle to try and clarify my position on all of this. I think both you and oober are two of the most open-minded and fair posters on the entire board. Just conversating, bro.

Yeah - so this isn't about just scoring points and winning an argument?
Yeah - you never get personal.
LOL
You like to mix enough football talk in so you can keep framing your agenda and try to needle people - or simply be an outright hypocrite. Same old same old.

Maybe explain what the different FOOTBALL TAKE on Baker you have as an "Expert" than the "POSTERS" you mentioned? Because from my memory each poster you mentioned in your post have ALL acknowledged Baker's struggles. But instead of fixating on them and gnawing on them EVERY chance like a dog with a bone - or a poster who despises Baker The Person ... we've also talked about other elements that impact Baker. smh.

j/c:

I think Baker has done a much, much better job of staying focused on himself and the team rather than getting into talking about others or allowing the media to rile him up.

The other day, Mary Kay asked Baker about all the criticism he has been facing and she brought up Stephan A. Smith's tirades. In the past, Baker would have taken the bait and lashed out. Instead, he said:



I think he has been displaying a growth in maturity and focus this year. I respect that and it gives me more of a reason to hope he gets it on the field, too.

I don't claim to be a football expert. Never have, never will. But I am pretty observant. You get better at everything in life the more you do it. It becomes faster and easier. I don't see shy reading defenses should be any different. You weren't born with the ability to read defenses. You developed that over time. I don't understand how anyone can say, you are in the NFL now, you can't possibly get better at reading defenses.

So let me preface this with a couple of things. 1st I'm not a Baker apologist. 2nd I'm no guru. 3rd I'm directing this towards you because you display a lot of knowledge. 4th this is not to start an argument but a legitimate question.

You say that his post snap reads aren't tied to his knowledge of the offense, correct? Couldn't it be though? If I understand correctly, most pass plays have different progressions for different coverages, say Jarvis, OBJ, Hooper if it's Cover 1 and lets just say Hooper, Jarvis, OBJ if it's Cover 3. Is it possible to be able to see the defense change after the snap but NOT be knowledgeable or comfortable enough to immediately know what read progression to change to?

Maybe it's just wishful thinking so that we don't need to find another QB already.

Question? The Buffalo Bills are 4-2 like us do you think Bills fans are calling for Josh Allen's head like a lot of our "fans" are?

I didn't take it that way, brother. You know I always appreciate your takes.

I think the difference there is that Allen looked bad his first year and has progressed where as Baker looked good as a rookie and has never neared that level of performance again.

Welcome to the board. I think you ask a good question. I can see why it seems that way, but I believe they are two different things while being linked at the same time.

I think there can be issues w/your receivers due to lack of timing, reading the zone coverages the same way, making hot reads and sight adjustments, and it's part of the equation w/throwing w/anticipation.

I think we saw issues last year w/those things. I believe that OBJ and Landry did not practice much and they never really developed a great chemistry. This is more true w/OBJ in my opinion.

I think the timing routes are looking good this year. We've seen many examples of Baker firing strikes to our receivers when that first read is open. We even seen him do a better job of trying to go through his progressions.

I think that reading coverages is about reading the defenders. The Safeties and LBers are your primary keys, but corners also have to be read. That's why I think using motion is a good idea because it gives you a pre-snap indication of the coverage. For example, if a S or CB follows the slot guy across the formation while the latter is in motion, that's a indicator that they might be in some sort of man coverage. That's not always the case, but it helps. What's crazy is that teams are becoming increasingly clever w/disguising their coverages and changing them up. There are times when they could play man on one receiver and zone everything else. They might play one coverage on one side of the field and then another on the opposite side of the field. Remember there are similarities between Cover 2, Cover 4, and even Cover 6. Cover 3 can look like Cover 1 or even Cover 0.

I also want to add something else. I have never once said that guys can't get better at reading coverages. When you hear a phrase like "the game is slowing down for me," they are probably referring to reading coverages. On the other hand, a lot of it is a gift that requires incredible processing speed. Think about all the things you have to diagnose in less than 2.5 seconds. Set a timer for 3 seconds and drop back while trying to keep your eye on multiple moving parts. And last time I looked at NextGen Stats, Baker was holding the ball longer than any other qb at 3.18 seconds or something very close to that. Maybe it was 3.13 seconds? That's not much time at all. It's a really hard job.

Let me know if you have more questions or need any clarification. Hell, feel free to disagree. Let's just keep it civil. And again.........welcome to the board.

Allen is playing a lot better than Baker. And he shows signs of improvement. So ... not the same thing.

Did you see the last two Bills games? Allen did not play well.

I looked up the latest QB stats at NextGen stats to see if Baker is still holding the ball longer than any other qb. He is at 3.20 seconds.

Also, to support your claim about Baker vs Allen, I will provide the following link and people can scroll through the different categories to see for themselves who is playing better. Also, what is not included is that Josh Allen can shrug off tacklers and is an excellent runner.

Here is the link: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-time-to-throw

I am going to quote myself because the refs won't do anything about the continued BS on here..............but the above response was directed towards Cap, because I agreed w/his take and I was trying to support Cap's take.

He's 2nd all-time in rushing TDs through thirty games.
If rushers aren't careful they get stiff-armed and run over.
3rd and short means a new set of downs, no RB required. If he fails to pick it up on 3rd... he'll humiliate you on 4th.

Would have been a great QB for the AFC Norris.




I just call him Paul Bunyan.

can you explain why the Browns have had 17 team losses in a row against the steelers in pittsburgh

He didn't play well last two games, but ours hasn't been adequate every game either.

I think your question is dead on although I would say its not just a matter of the knowledge of the offense, its also about how much of that knowledge has been internalized. I think this is common sense as it holds true for any job. I've been at my job for almost 12 years now. I can tell you year 1 was not year 2 was not year 5, and that wasn't year 10. As we get better at our stuff, it allows us to better handle someone else's stuff.

Here's a Baker example: 2018. He had a simpler offense, did a lot of 1 read stuff, wasn't really asked to read the whole field. Clearly not a formula for a sustained NFL career but he managed a record breaking year. But having internalized that limited playbook meant he had to think less about what we were doing because he already knew what we were doing. That led to things like looking off defenders, making plays all over the field, having the confidence and patience to pull off some of that crazy play action stuff.

Now obviously this isn't all of it. There's certainly more he can do to help his situation. I'm not a stat or film junkie, but it seems to me that the safeties don't usually seem to be in too much of a hurry to tip their hand or make a break in a direction. Baker's got to do a better of job of trusting that his guys are going to be where they are supposed to so he can do things like look off the defenders, make some effective pump fakes... force that safety or LB to show his cards earlier.

Bakers got the physical tools. It's apparent he takes his coaching to heart. I think it speaks well that even the posters who get criticized for being critical of Baker recognize the effort. Even though as we've settled in to the season Stefanski's learning curve has become a little more apparent, I really do like the job he's done so far and I'm confident that he has a good plan for Baker.

IMO if his ribs are still bothering him, I'd really consider shutting him down for a couple weeks until they heal up. Not just for the physical part, but for the mental/emotional part. If he goes in to the Cinci game feeling like he has to make up for the Pittsburgh performance on top of playing Cinci, its only going to compound problems.

We'll see what happens to Allen - I am rooting for him, but I think proclamation that he's better than Baker or improving enough to be a franchise QB are premature. This year? This week he's significantly better than Baker. Is that book written/complete?

Allen is in his third year with a stable well coached team - and he had shown flashes of dramatically improved accuracy before the last 2 games. If he can maintain the accuracy I think he's got a chance to be very good. Accuracy is normally one of the traits that is really hard to improve from College to the NFL, so it's no certainty.

I guess I should also ask you to clarify what you mean that Baker hasn't been adequate. I wouldn't want to make any assumptions.

In addition to the NextGen stats link I provided earlier for people to compare Allen vs Baker, here are the statistical rankings for each according to PFF.

Allen is 6th overall w/a grade of 86.3 while Baker is 31st overall w/a grade of 58.6.

Versa...you comparing apples to apples?

or are just cherry picking data to further your agenda?

do you ever look behind the numbers to see if you can identify "the why" certain QBs/players develop sooner than others?

or do just cherry pick the numbers to further your agenda?

Great argument, maca. Maybe one day I will be agenda free like you. LOL

Apples to apples? The Browns have a better OL. They have better RBs. They have better WRs. They have better TEs.

The Bills have the better qb and throwing around the word "agenda" does not change the facts.

What I said is that he has been playing better than Baker. I made no long-term prognosis, and certainly did not use the phrase "franchise quarterback."

When I said Baker was not adequate in a couple of games, I meant he did not play well in a couple of games. In other games, did well enough to not lose.

It's not like I am rooting against Baker. I want him to be the answer. But wanting him to be the answer does not mean I cannot look at him any other way.

Fair enough - no problem from me. I only asked if you seaw the last 2 games played - because Allen did not play well and they were not playing elite defenses, though Tenn is just a good, well coached team. I didn't suggest anything more than that. It's all good from me.

Honestly at this point, I think you have to consider Tennessee as an elite team.

I'm not feeling good about playing them.

I live very close to Nashville. I would never have believed that Tannehill could play on this level. I think, at least what I consider an elite team is something that jumps off the screen at you.

I don't really see the Titans that way. What I see is a gritty team that no matter what seems to happen, they find a way to win. Adversity seems to be something that doesn't phase them.

Elite as in very few teams could travel to Tenn and get a W. Yes - they are really well coached and run.

I'd ranke them in the top 5 or 6 for certain.

Tannehill has Rich Gannon syndrome... A mediocre QB when he entered the league, but he has become very good.

It does happen, especially with the QB position. It takes time to develop.

He also got away from Adam Gase.

The Titans are definitely a top tier team and they are going to pound the Browns.

versat....YOU SURE AS HELL ARE NOT AGENDA FREE AS OF TODAY...LOL

You might fool some of board members with your CHERRY PICKED STATS that you use to make your comparisons...but I KNOW YOU...

AGENDA...it so obvious to me...while newbies might not know what you are about especially when you attempt to recruit new board members to join your agenda...they may not know what you are about...BUT I DO!

so, the way "you compare Mayfield to Allen", BOTH BEING DRAFTED IN 2018 and everything from that point to today being equal, cherry picking some 2020 stats after 6 games is enough for you to make an honest and fair comparison between Mayfield and Allen, right?

Stefanski was hired impart because of his ability to develop QB talent. One point I will make, the Browns have not had good luck with Head Coaches who also want to retain the role of Offensive Coordinator.

So the Browns have Stefanski as HC/OC, Scott Van Pelt as OC and Kevin Rogers, known for his ability to develop QB talent.

I do wonder, of the 3 coaches named above, which one is responsible for teaching the new offense to Mayfield...Stefanski or all 3 of these coaches.

Vers...forgive me for looking beyond your "cherry picked stats"...

No wonder Baker is playing so bad.

THE REAL QUESTIONS...NUFF SAID

vesa...you got nothing but AGENDA...

j/c

I think we, Browns fans, have it wrong. We want the Browns to win, or at least get to, the Super Bowl. What we should want is for the team to become routinely competitive. Once we have achieved that, the next step is routinely making the playoffs. That's when you get realistic odds of winning the SB.

The problem with rocketing to the top is that it is almost always followed by a fall back to the bottom. We need to get out of our basement apartment. It looks like we are doing that. Let's not lose our minds over not being able to compete with the league's elite at this point. And make no mistake, the Steelers and Ravens are among the league's elite. We have a legitimate chance to have a winning season. We might even earn a playoff berth. This is better than it has been. Next step is to make the playoffs (again.)

We've spent most of the last 20 years searching for that elite QB. We have Baker Mayfield. He was a great college QB. He's in his third year and we have now seen his warts. He could still prove elite, but the odds are slim. But he has talents too. He has the tools to be good, if not great. That's better than we have had in a very long time.

84 You make some good points.

Having a winning season 9 stinking games is way over what we have experienced.

To become routinely competitive is a goal. Once we have achieved that, the next step is routinely making the playoffs. All true.

However, in order to achieve that you need a few things. You have to have continuity starting from the top. Ownership has to support his GM and the Head Coach. Support and cooperation have to be in place on that level.

You can not succeed changing out regimes.

Once that is on place in order to achieve those goals of competition; you need a quarterback. Maybe not HOF level.
Bernie is not in the Hall but he was good enough to win a championship.

When you have a QB in place and he can provide a level of consistency for ten plus years. You increase your odds significantly.

Then you have to consistently add viable talent from the draft. Players will retire. Some will leave as free agents.
Turnover will happen. You can not always keep veteran talent. You have to replace that with less expensive players coming from the draft. Drafting well consistently is extremely important. Free agency is where you add target talent. You can not build there. You have to manage the cap.

You also need a little luck. You might have everything in place and just lose to many key guys to injury.

Baker is what we have. Like many other young quarterbacks consistency is an issue. He has shown he can play at this level. However, he has not proven yet to be consistent.

May of 2021 Berry has to determine if they wish to extend him for the option year at about $25 mil.

This season will determine if they will do that.

I don't know how he will play. I hope he proves himself.

IMO there has to be games that he takes over with excellent play leading to victories. You can not turn it over in this league. It happens to all quarterbacks. But the ratio has to be acceptable. For every ten TD's you can not exceed 3.

Quarterbacks have to lead teams. Players have to believe in their quarterback. Players follow dedication and success.

My comments were made with the assumption that this is no longer an issue.

I believe I implied this with my comments about Baker. But there is, in my mind, another approach. It would have been great if drafting Baker had yielded a top tier QB, but it appears it hasn't. He is still a guy you can build a team around. And while building that team around Baker, you can keep lines in the creek to catch the big one. I can't help wondering about picking up Rosen as a back up. He showed real potential in college, and has had bad situation after bad situation since. As I remember, questions about his maturity were his biggest issue. Thing about maturity, it changes over time.

Not disagreeing at all.

I don't know the details with Rosen. But when two teams invest in you and then cut you lose; must be some good reasons.

The clock is ticking on Baker.

I don't want to speculate. This is an important year. Ten games to go.

Quarterbacks can be really hard to evaluate. Stats are guidelines but don't tell the whole story.
Management has to determine is this the guy to go forward with. Berry and KS came after Baker. So they didn't draft him. Now they see him daily. They know a lot more than us who only see the games in regards to his true makeup.
Still he has to produce.

Trent Dilfer and Foles won a Super Bowl. Well the teams won Super Bowls.

Lot of very good quarterbacks have not won. Rivers was a good quarterback. Dak is good. Matt Ryan is definitely good enough.

I want Baker to make the strides to lead this team.

We will find out starting tomorrow. If the Browns win ten games, go to the playoffs and win a game. Got to feel he will be the starter next year.

I would say that of the big four that came out that year: Rosen, Mayfield, Allen and Darnold, Mayfield has been OK. He seems to have become a high floor, low ceiling guy for some reason. Whether it is the league figured him out or something else is really beside the point. He has become a “game manager” type and not the guy to put the team on his shoulders. I would have no problem with two things: don’t offer him anywhere near max at the end of his current contract and draft a QB after doing extensive scouting. Also don’t want to hear about Watson or Jackson as other teams passed on them as well.

I wouldn't count the NCAA Championship. After that, what championship did he win?

He didn't win a championship.

But he was good enough at that time to have won. He certainly didn't lose one.

There is a category of good enough without being a HOF'er.

Not sure this is the right thread but this article seems to fit with some of the earlier discussions here. I am not advocating replacing Baker but the topic was broached and I found nthis article intersting and wanted to share figuring many of you would enjoy it.


2021 NFL draft QB class offers the dual-threat potential teams are seeking
Eric Edholm
Yahoo SportsOct 23, 2020, 8:56 AM

A former NFL talent evaluator, whose team was bent on taking a quarterback prior to the 2018 NFL draft, was given his marching orders months before: break down that draft class’ eventual five first-round quarterbacks — Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen and Lamar Jackson — along with a sixth QB prospect, Mason Rudolph, who was eventually drafted in the third round.

The team planned meetings with all six and were mostly sold on the idea of using a high selection on one. They planned to use that January (Senior Bowl month), February (scouting combine month) and March (the biggest pro day month) to canvas the top prospects, split hairs between the various talents and determine who was the best fit.

What the scout noted in his pre-pro day evaluations of the top six was that their playing styles couldn’t have been more diverse. Comparing them, apples to apples, proved to be very difficult. It hit home more when the scout traveled to pro days for four of the six prospects, all lined up in a two-week span.

“You go from watching this strapping, rocket-arm guy [Allen], to this electric athlete with the loose arm [Jackson] … then the two California kids [Darnold and Rosen], and Baker was kind of in his own category in some ways,” the ex-NFL talent evaluator said. “Maybe Rosen was closest to that old-style pocket passer. Darnold and Baker, maybe you call them ‘hybrid’ guys. Whatever you call them, I just knew they were all so different.

“I turned to [another scout on his former team] and said, ‘How do you even stack these guys up?’ One’s a Porsche, one’s a Jag, the next guy a Range Rover … even their personalities and just their demeanors were so much different [from one another]. You had to be very sure of what you wanted most.”

The 2021 QB draft class is shaping up similarly in some fashions. There are still many months to go in the process, and multiple college conferences still have yet to start the 2020 season. Little is set in stone now. But the parallel between the 2018 and 2021 crops is that we could have five or more quarterbacks picked in the top 50 selections or so, with each appearing to carry a distinct style. It’s likely to lead to some fascinating discussions behind closed NFL doors about which QB prospect best fits each of those respective teams.

Even still, the majority of 2021 top prospects fit the mold of the dual-threat quarterback that quickly is becoming the industry standard in the NFL.

“It comes down to what traits you value and which [quarterback] you think is going to be a leader in your locker room,” the evaluator said. “It’s less about how they get it done and more about will they get it done with our staff and our players? And can we adapt to their style, their strengths?”

That evaluator now works in college football. He has watched Clemson’s Trevor Lawrence, who he says, like most of America, is the clear-cut top prospect next spring. He has also seen most of the other big-name QB prospects (North Dakota State’s Trey Lance, Ohio State’s Justin Fields and Florida’s Kyle Trask among them), with BYU’s fast-rising Zach Wilson still on his rainy-day watch list.

Lawrence is the nearly universal top prospect. And the fascinating Lance, despite his lesser body of work, is some teams’ second-highest-graded prospect.

But in the evaluator’s mind, Fields isn’t getting the proper respect.

“You can hype the other guys enough,” he said, “but why aren’t we talking about Justin Fields more? Georgia fans are; they wish they still had him. Is everyone else talking about him? Maybe, but I ain’t heard it a lot.

“I don’t know what other people think of him. But to me, [Fields] is Cam [Newton] 2.0. Just a little shorter. The set up, the throwing motion, the big frame, that tough running ability, and maybe it’s that No. 1 [jersey] he wears. But that’s the guy he reminds me of.”

There will be plenty of QB suitors in 2021

The 0-6 New York Jets control the race for the No. 1 pick in 2021 — likely to be Lawrence, who some believe is a generational prospect in the mold of Andrew Luck. Lose out the string and Lawrence can be theirs.

That’s no certainty to happen, of course. The Miami Dolphins started last season 0-6 with a minus-148 point differential (the Jets this year are only minus-110) and ended up with five victories, picking No. 5 overall.

What’s clear is that right behind the Jets at the bottom of the standings are a slew of teams who might also be big-game hunting at quarterback, including the Jacksonville Jaguars, Atlanta Falcons (depending on Matt Ryan’s future), New York Giants, Minnesota Vikings and the Washington Football Team.

There’s even a working theory that the reason the Dolphins promoted Tua Tagovailoa as their starter this week was because they wanted to give him ample time to convince the franchise that he’s their unquestioned future at QB.

If not, the Dolphins own two first-round picks — theirs and that of the Houston Texans — plus plenty more ammo that can be used toward another quarterback. The 1-5 Texans have that pick currently slotted at No. 7 overall, and their remaining strength of schedule is .580, the sixth-toughest in the NFL.

Assuming Lawrence goes first, there could be at least three quarterbacks in the top-10 picks in 2021. Perhaps even the top five when all the dust settles. There also could be teams on the outskirts of the top 10 — New England? San Francisco? New Orleans? — who look into a bold trade up to that range, depending on what the future holds with those teams’ veteran quarterbacks.

Where does Justin Fields fit into the draft picture?

Fields will make his season debut Saturday at home against Nebraska. He figures to be in the top-10 mix if he plays at or above the level he did last season.

There are skeptics, and he’s by no means a certainty for that range, even after throwing for 3,273 yards, completing 67.2 percent of his passes and registering a 41-3 TD-INT ratio for the Buckeyes, as well as running for 484 yards and 10 scores.

One NFL scout said he wants to see Fields do a better job of speeding up his clock, taking better care of the ball in the pocket and as a runner (11 fumbles last season) and showing he can make more tight-window throws.
But there also are believers in Fields’ skills and pro projection, in the NFL and beyond.

Urban Meyer, who never coached Fields at OSU but remains close to the program, recently told the Big Ten Network that Fields arrived in Columbus as “a runner that threw very well” but who now has elevated his game with his improved passing over the past year and a half.

“Now, he is a quarterback that just happens to be Braxton Miller fast, is as electric of a runner as Braxton was,” Meyer said. “That’s what I’m hearing. That’s what I saw. He’s a little thicker than Braxton. What you have, if it’s even possible, you have a Braxton Miller athlete that throws like Dwayne Haskins.

“And if that’s possible, you’re talking about arguably — you know, I know Trevor Lawrence is there and [tight end] Kyle Pitts from Florida, who I personally think is the best non-quarterback player in America — you’re talking about the best player in America. If he can actually do what I’m hearing he can do, there’s no stopping this guy.”

That’s quite a departure from the spring and summer when Ohio State head coach Ryan Day made it clear that neither Fields nor the other Buckeyes had convincingly grabbed the starting job.

Quincy Avery, a private QB tutor who has worked with Fields and Lance, said Fields has a style that makes him tough to compare to anyone else.

“He can do all the things that you’d ask any other passer to do,” Avery said. “But he also has this dynamic genius that sets him apart as a designed runner. You can’t design runs for a lot of quarterbacks in the NFL, so that’s different.

“But I also don’t want to categorize him as just a runner. He’s one of the best quarterbacks from the pocket in the country.”

In clean pockets last season, Pro Football Focus charted Fields as having an adjusted completion percentage (which accounts for dropped passes) of 71.1, averaging 9.6 yards per attempt with a TD-INT ratio of 33-2. Those were better clean-pocket numbers in 2019 than Lawrence and Justin Herbert, the No. 6 overall pick last spring, and just a tick behind top-five picks Joe Burrow and Tagovailoa.

“[Fields has] clearly made strides as a thrower and with his throwing mechanics,” Avery said, “but you can’t make the kinds of improvements he has unless you have a lot of God-given ability. He’s got that, and we’re just starting to see what he’s capable of.”

The fast QB riser in the 2021 draft class

We’ve been extolling the virtues of BYU’s Wilson, who is off to a brilliant start with his basketball athleticism and Mahomes-ian flashes this season. So we’ll let someone else do the extolling.

First read Pete Thamel’s terrific profile on Wilson, who has entered the Heisman Trophy fray after coming back from an injury-plagued 2019 season. The arm talent he has displayed this season suggests the shoulder injury he suffered a year ago is no longer an issue, and the feel for manipulating defenses with a variety of ball speeds, trajectories and arm angles has been special.

Then listen to the words of ESPN analyst Dan Orlovsky, who calls college football games for the network and also is keenly attuned to the NFL landscape, appearing on the network’s battery of studio shows.

Orlovsky has called Lawrence’s games and believes he’s a John Elway-caliber prospect — a can’t-miss type of talent. Below Lawrence, “a bit more off the beaten path,” he said, lies Wilson. Orlovsky admits he has yet to do a deep tape dive on Wilson, mostly having seen cut-ups and highlight packages of him so far.

But Orlovsky told Yahoo Sports that what he has seen with Wilson has opened his eyes.

“After the season ends and I get into the college draft stuff and really dive in,” Orlovsky said, “someone I am very anxious to watch is Zach Wilson.

“Really, really special athlete. Explosive football player. There are a lot of things he has in his game when it comes to athleticism, explosive arm, movability. I just say, ‘It looks like what it looks like in the NFL now.’”

Orlovsky is more on the lookout for the types of dual-threat quarterbacks he’s seeing populate the NFL, and Wilson’s skills appear to be a hand-in-glove fit with that trend.

“Knowing where the NFL is headed with that position, he’s a guy that I am going to be very, very interested to watch going into the draft,” Orlovsky said. “It just looks like what it looks like now. It’s a matter of asking, how can we use this player? I just think he has a lot of traits that matter at quarterback right now in the NFL.”

There could be three quarterbacks poised to land in the upper reaches of the first round — Lawrence, Lance and Fields — and two more who are making first-round pushes in Wilson and Florida’s Trask.

All but Trask could be dual-threat NFL quarterbacks, and even he has some short-yardage utility and respectable pocket-movement potential. But even with a group that carries some overlapping skills, there’s also quite a noticeable variance in their individual styles as quarterbacks.

It should be another deep, diverse crop of quarterbacks come draft time, one we likely will debate for years to come.

https://sports.yahoo.com/2021-nfl-draft-...-125621854.html

I am not saying he can't improve in these areas, but the combination of holding the ball so long, struggling reading coverages, and not performing well when he is pressured in the pocket is going to be very hard to overcome because those things are linked.

I think most people are so desperate to have Baker be the guy finally after so many years, they just ignore what just about every analyst and every statistic and piece of tape shows . He’s just not that good. Mentally he doesn’t have nfl talent. I think everyone wants to him to be the guy and finally not have to worry about it and maybe he will. I think the question is how long do we wait? I think if you go down the list and look at what weapons each Qb has its safe to say that Baker has an embarrassment of riches compared to others. So again we ask, how long do we wait for it to click for baker? How long do we allow him to hold the offense back?

This is just a guess, but I think they give him this year. They are obviously hoping he improves his weaknesses and proves to be the guy moving forward. I doubt if he will be around much longer after this year if he doesn't improve in the areas I--and many analysts--have mentioned.

If BM doesn’t show marked improvement by the end of the year, we have to explore other options.

Whether that be a trade, I dunno.... we won’t be picking high enough to get a QB most likely, and to waste our talented guys on O with a QB who ain’t cutting it would be very irritating to me.

I agree with the last 2 posters. He will get a fair shot this year. I think they will start to look elsewhere if there isn't marked improvement and one of the big reasons will be he was not drafted by this regime. I think that will be an important factor.

Hopefully he improves in the areas that is holding him back and we won't have to worry about it.

But, make no mistake, the "agendas" of posters have absolutely no bearing on this decision. The FO is going to make this decision. Not posters on a message board.

He's going to have to play a lot better to be part of this team moving forward. But again, I do think they will give him the entire year unless it gets really, really crazy and players are revolting.

I wonder what Stefanski and the other coaches are thinking? They know Haslam's history. They know the smart thing is to give Baker the year. They probably also know how much talent we have. Their careers could be on the line.

I wouldn't worry about coaches careers being on the line at this point.

First, thus far the coaching staff passes the eye test. It's pretty evident the team is well coached. I am not saying perfect, but there seems to be buy in by the players and fans.

Second, Stefanski is Depo's hand picked guy. Like it or not, Depo has Haslams ear. You can add in that Berry seems to be in Stefanski's court.

No doubt that anything can happen in the crazy world of pro sports, but I don't think Stephanski is going anywhere anytime soon.

Mayfield isn't as far off as maybe we think he is. He needs IMO to understand where the safties are and how to move them or get them to bite then beat them to the punch.

For instance the 1st pick in the Pitt game he needed to see and probably did where the safety was and how his positioning played into the play he was about to run. If he had let Hooper take 3-5 more steps he hits a big big play, and perhaps it actually changes the complextion of the game.

Pitt plays to their pressure he also needs to understand that concept. If they are blitzing they tighten up their coverages and pray the pressure gets there before their corners get beat. Crossing routes are perfect for beating blitizes but he must understand that the safties are the key.

It's hard to ignore that the system is new not just to Baker but the entire team, he as a QB must process a lot of information including knowing where his recievers are going to be on every play.

When I watch Baker's interceptions he suffers with safety coverages. Most often the safety is coming accross in the opposite direction from the play. He needs to understand where the safties are and hold them in place or move them with his head (eyes). When he locks his eyes in a window he brings the safety into the window, and he can do the same to open up those windows. That is where he needs to improve. I think he correctly identifies coverages and picks the most favorable route pre snap its the post snap and safties he needs to understand.

He can do this and has at times shown improvement. During the Pitt game I kept thinking about what Sam used to say. I want the opposing QB to think he is in Time Square on New Years eve. That was Baker he needs to settle down and understand what is happening. That is a issue he MUST IMO learn to deal with.

The positive is he did in the instance of the pick six go to the right route, what he failed at was doing what he did and just let the safety move in then hit the play 3-5 steps from where the safety bit. Had he this would have been a huge play.

The ability to move the safety or hold them in place is something he needs to work on. And yes he needs to have time to play fast and understand at game speed how to open windows.

I probably did a poor job of communicating forgive me.

I get what you are saying.


Rivers and Rodgers both threw pick sixes recently that were all about head and eye. Rivers against us telegraphed the throw to the flat. Last week Rodgers did the same thing.

There are lots of good players in this league who make their living reading the eyes of qb's.

Safety's often key on the QB's eyes. You have to master the discipline of holding the safety with your eyes and pump fakes.

That first int was a stare down. The safety read it and jumped it. I watched Ed Reid do it for years. He actually would bait quarterbacks into thinking that he bought an eye fake.

Pre snap reads are indicators. WR goes in motion, corner tracks him looks like a form of man coverage. Safety's could still drop into zones post snap.

The second int was the kind that you can't do. Off balance throw into a group trying too much to make something happen.

Wentz and guys like Baker must learn that it is ok to punt. It is ok to throw a play away.

The fine line is knowing when you make those throws that your receivers are let to make a play and win their battle.

I don't know if Baker will evolve into that caliber of qb. He has ten games to show he working in that direction.

j/c:

Recently, I have been talking about how Baker is playing when he being pressured. I know there are stats out there that rank QBs when they are facing pressure because I have seen bits and pieces of them. However, I can never find a up-to-date complete list. I have been pretty sure that my eyes are not deceiving me about Baker not doing well when he is pressured. Here is an article about it.

Just a thought. Would Baker be better playing in a shotgun formation or would that hurt the O more?

All evidence shows he is better under center.

IMHO the bench would be the propper place...

Imagine if we had drafted DeShaun Watson at #10 a few years ago instead of trading back

Now would be a fun time to have that Cameo done.

Great 4th quarter by Baker... Kudus to the kid

22 completions in a row.

if we go 10-6 or 11-5 will the Baker questions continue?

I feel like a lot of people want to destroy another first round QB's ego's like we did Tim Couch.

Almost...he just HAD to spike it to stop the clock before that DPJ TD strike...jeesh, Baker.

Browns record.

Beating Kosar and Holcomb's record of 16 in a row. Or maybe I should say "demolishing"....

A great day for Baker. I’m glad to see him bounce back from last week.

Actually, it was 20 but still a Browns record.

He does occasionally show signs of a very good QB.

I saw it was 21. It was over on the spike.

j/c:

Baker has a good day. The biggest thing for me was that he came through in the clutch. He made some tough throws on that last drive to win the game. A little over a minute left and no timeouts. He got it done. Impressive!

He started off bad. He was 0 for 5 w/a pick. Stefanski called about 3 or 4 plays where he flipped it forward to WRs behind the LOS. Those "completions" started the streak.

I think one of the biggest keys is that he didn't receive hardly any pressure today. He was able to take advantage of the clean pocket to fire some real strikes. I think his best pass may have been the TD to Njoku.

Baker does have his best games against bad teams. He is going to have to put some good games together against good teams, but this is a start.

Fair post.

Agree with all of it.

The Colts aren't bad and he played a pretty Good game against them?

j/c:

Did anyone else notice how Brown's players pretty much avoided Baker after he made his big plays?

No, I didn't, and I usually notice stuff that.

When did this happen?

On the big plays.

I saw him go up to Njoku on the TD, and they seemed fine.

I saw him with the OL after the game winning drive, and they were congratulating each other.

I heard him say in the post game presser that he blamed himself for OBJs injury, told him he loved him at half time, and said OBJ told him to be great.

I saw his coach for the first time heap an enormous amount of praise on his QB after the game.

I heard Bryant and Higgins heap praise on him after the game.

I didn't notice what you're suggesting.

Didn't see that? I will watch the replay and check it out ...

No. I saw him slapping 5 with players after the 1st Bryant TD and running up to Hunt with other players congratulating him after his TD reception. I saw him on the bench talking with Landry twice. They didn't show much after the other TD passes.

j/c:

Hmmmm.............guess what I saw was wrong.

I did see some of the things Rish said, but that isn't what I was talking about. I didn't see Njoku reciprocate much. I didn't see the OL picking him up in the air after big plays. Hell, I didn't even see them picking him up off the turf on another big play. I didn't see his receivers running towards him. Maybe it's my bias????

Only because of the spike which was necessary.

We have a big issue at QB and it ain't Baker. The AFC North is now loaded at QB. The Ravens and Lamar, Pitt and Ben, Cinci and Joe, and Clevenlad with Baker. Ben is long in the tooth but having one of if not his best year. Lamar has proven he is legit. And Burrow is starting to look the part in Cinci, given a team rebuild over a couple seasons and he will only get better IMHO.

Our coaching staff is going to need to solve this by finding ways to beat these 3 for the foreseeable future. That is a significant problem because the two losses we have were blowouts in the division. We can't have that and contend.

Yes. Please stop.

Only you have the true answer to that.

Yep. I am not a liar.

The teams we lost to had coaches and players that have gelled for multiple seasons.


We threw our team and coaches together this year with no offseason or preseason. I think we will be ok. We are doing a good job of learning how to win. We just need to shore up our D next offseason.

When it comes to Baker, the person, I believe you actually believe he's a bad person and convince yourself whatever he does is bad. I don't think it's necessarily lying, but I don't believe it's being honest either.

Everyone inside that locker room and most people outside it knows he wasn't badmouthing Duke. And I wouldn't believe for a second that anyone in the locker room doesn't like to play with Baker. It's not about what you see, it's how you interpret it. You've gone Colin Cowherd.

Quit searching for reasons to hate and just enjoy the ride. Sorry that you were wrong about Baker. Sorry you are wrong about his character. And sorry you were wrong about the guy you thought was going to be good. No need to keep jumping down that rabbit hole, as they say.

I didn't. I was cheering and barking with the other fans.

Too bad we don’t play the bengals 6 times a year.

Baker 4th Q:

10-11 / 158 / 3 TD (all to change lead)

5 passes to Higgins for 90 yds.

This kinda confirms that you have to take these QBR rankings with a massive grain of salt.

1 game vs the Bengals switches you from bottom of the list to top-10?

Does that mean that's 3 4th quarter comebacks?

Great finish.

Keep proving me wrong Baker!

No. PFF will still have Baker towards the lower end of the Spectrum. Baker was 8th or 9th in the ESPN QBTR system before the Pit game.

Dan Orlovsky did another breakdown on a Baker pass on Get Up this morning. It was about the game-winning TD pass to DPJ. It was a positive evaluation. I just looked for the video but it's not available yet. I'll post it when it becomes available or maybe someone else has better searching skills than I do. I think Brown's fans will enjoy it.

Just catching up ... I guess it is not a surprise to see Baker have a great game and then the poster that hates 'Baker the person' post this. The poster who claims all of his evaluations of Baker are backed up by statistics and the experts and ex-NFL players (previously referred to in these forums as Bozos and Talking Heads) ... the person who couldn't stand the success Rookie Baker had so he had to start a "Baker the Person" thread in order to bash him ... the person who #cantwaittillheisgone (and who has never taken that bak even after being given multiple opportunities).

So this isn't a football take - this is a psycho analysis / psycho babble take? Another personality take? Clearly done in an effort to suggest that Baker's team mates despise him and don't want to celebrate with him when he plays well. . . . . please let's dispense with any notion that this person doesn't have an agenda and that it taints every single thing written by him about Baker.

Bottom line - it is entirely possible/probable that the poster knows football and can use that knowledge to accurately highlight a lot of the areas Baker needs improvement in (areas that we all recognize despite insinuations otherwise). But lets not pretend that because any talk in Baker is wrapped up in football knowledge, that the agenda isn't simply to hate on the guy whenever possible. As someone posted the other day - there is glee when Baker fails and demonstrates his worst failings as a QB.

The game against Cinci didn't end the discussions about whether Baker can be a franchise QB. They are going to be ongoing through the season and possibly beyond. Baker's as good as his performance is trending and if stinks again against good or bad teams, then the questions will be asked and his ability to read a D, make progressions, climb the pocket ... his processing speed ... all of that will be discussed and we *hope* to see steady and continued improvement. That's all fair. And I guess since so many people genuinely dislike or hate Baker - every time an issue or failing can be framed in a worse light I am sure it will be.

Sorry, missed the part about it being ESPN QBR and not what we were talking about before (PFF). My mistake.

I was expecting our O to walk all over the Cinci D, but that didn't happen. Their secondary, in particular, came to play. That was not a cupcake opponent they were playing yesterday.

Or maybe both teams are cupcakes.

Not much to say about Baker that hasn't been said. Oh, wait, there's always more to say about Baker...


Baker spent some time in the zone yesterday.

Earlier in the week he talked about "tuning out the noise" in the media. I spent the 1st quarter, yesterday, wondering if he would ever learn to tune it out in the pocket. I was tired of (at my wit's end, to be more direct) watching him play scared. "Skitish" was the word I kept using this season. I'm watching early yesterday and coming to the conclusion that he is like a heavyweight boxer afraid to take a punch. "Glass jaw", I kept thinking. If you're going to play this sport "scared", you will never be great.

Then it all changed. To be blunt, it all changed (in my mind) because our OL got punched in the mouth the week before. I went back and watched last night... Baker threw from a pocket that was one of the most secure I've ever seen from this team... play after play after play. It was just what he needed to get his mojo back. But make no mistake, our OL was out to prove something, and did, in dramatic fashion. Will it carry forward? That's up to Baker. He won't see many Sundays like that, these guys aren't perfect and he can't expect them to be. Hopefully though, "skittish" will quickly become a thing of the past. Joe Burrow beat the blitz all day long, Baker is way behind in this dept and needs to catch up quickly.

To me, the OBJ thing is both psychological and physical. He's a superstar. Even ordinary WRs will come back to the huddle and tell you they were open, it's the nature of the beast. When OBJ does it, pressure mounts... "you have to get the ball in the hands of your playmakers" is a real thing, but never preempts the truth of just making plays. Baker has let it preempt the obvious and has become a worse QB because of it. That's on Baker (and the playcaller, to a degree).

I watch OBJ run patterns and think Tasmanian Devil, so quick and scrappy, but sometimes hard to predict. Windows open very quickly and sometimes close just as fast. It takes away focus from our QB's eyes, especially when he is adamant about getting him involved. Higgins is plodding, methodical, not very much ever jumps off the screen (besides his incredible hands, at times). He is a much easier target for Mayfield. Sometimes the windows take a tick longer to open, but they stay open long enough that our QB doesn't let his mind go into panic mode when he thinks he misses a window, or is taking too long to see the next one come open. I guess now, the point is moot, OBJ is done for the season.

Hopefully there is something to build on here. But make no mistake, Baker's issues are far from over if he regresses in the face of real adversity.

Perception isn't a lie. It's just a slanted view of what you see based on preconceived notions.

Could be.

I wanted to mention something supremely annoying regarding those with a Baker Agenda (media and fans in general as well as posters here).

I've seen multiple comments and articles talking about how Stefanski helped Baker with his play calling and short passes - someone here talked about the number of passes at or around the LOS .... all this said in some sort of negative way as if helping your QB be successful is a bad thing. As if having an offense that can execute and make the D react to stop one thing - therefore opening up something else on the field - is a bad thing. It's nonsense. Two examples of the hypocrisy:

1. Presumably you all saw the same game feed I did. At one point (3rd Q?) they put up a side by side "last 10 throws" by Baker to Burrow. . . . . the BURROWS competitions were all short. He had a string of 4 or 5 or maybe 6 passes that were under 5 yards. Guess what no-one complained. No-one suggested that wasn't smart to help your QB succeed.

2. I watched a decent amount of Tom Brady and the Buccaneers game - good lord Brady threw an absolute TON of short 0-5 yard passes. Over and over and over again. No-one is complaining and suggesting Arians is dumbing down the offense.

I think many posters have talked about wanting Rookie Baker back with the long plays and him ripping it on streaking receivers .... sure that's nice. I'll take winning games, short passes and running the ball the entire 4th Q once we get Chubb back if that means we win and keep winning.

All what those stats mean was there was an insufficient sample size. Drawing conclusions before enough plays are run.

A single good game makes the stats better.

I believe from what I have read, that a good game with the game outcome in question makes the stats great.

Not every game is on the line, this one was. And the team pulled out the win.

Other years, the Browns would lose these games. And we would be yelling about the stupid dropped ball (remember Corey Coleman) or overthrown pass, or untimely sack.

We have rookies making contributions... 4th and 6th rounders, and that catch by Higgins was a thing of beauty.

The team is far more disciplined this year.

Like it or not, the Browns present a challenge to an opponent these days. They can put up a bunch of points.

There are holes, but there is progress.

Good points.

I feel like this team and the new HC have shown ability to win multiple games that in previous years we would have lost under many previous regimes. It's a culture and we've shown a positive trend and change.

A lot of this can be tied back to good clock management.

I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere on here yet, but Stefanski taking the timeout right after the 2 min warning at the end of the game gave the Browns a chance to win.

It is amazing to me how many coaches across the league would not have taken a timeout there. They seem to confuse "give more time to the opponent" with "preserving time for your team when the other team can get no more first downs and a likely score is imminent". It is so simple and so basic yet so many coaches mess it up.

It's nice having smart people in charge do smart things.

Someone in the gameday thread was b$%^%ing up a storm lmao!

If KS had listened to many of the Posters in the game day chat - Baker would have played his last down as a Brown before he started is completion streak ... Some/Many were also bemoaning how Ward is not an top tier CB. . . . I didn't reply, just left as it was so angst filled during the game.

That is a prime example as to why I avoid those game day threads like the plague. So reactionary and illogical based on emotions in the moment.

If I'm actually watching live, it's hard to resist the entertainment value.

The one poster complains about everyone and everything Cleveland.
He predicted a loss in every playoff series in the Cavs championship run, and pizzed and moaned throughout every game. I can't imagine there's a person on earth that would enjoy watching a sporting event with him. He could win the lottery and then whine about the color of the envelope the check came in.

So this is the standard QB rating calculation that is based on %Completion, YPA , TD percentage and Int percentage.

With a great run game the QBR will drop. And that was part of the challenge... Give the ball to Chubb, and let him do his thing.

I would rather have Chubb than a statistically higher QB rating.

Agree - whatever it takes to win.

Here is a bit of perspective.... The Browns were 1-31 under Hue Jackson, and started 2018 0-2.

Since the 2018 season when Baker was inserted tor Tyrod Taylor, the Browns are 18-18-1 in those games. That would be 7-6-1 (less the two losses with Taylor) under Jackson/Williams, the 6-10 season with Kitchens and 5-2 with Stefanski.

The Browns have gone from pathetic to competitive.

I know that there are a lot of other factors, but there are reasons to be optimistic.

Stats are a reference point.

They do not tell the whole story.

It is easy to stack numbers to make an argument.

A good game or bad game can distort numbers quickly especially when the sample size is small.

Wins and loses is what counts. I am about the team.

If the QBR is bad and the game is won. I really do not care.

When quarterbacks lead the team to victory that is the measure.

You want to make a case to win an argument with stats. Have at it.
======================================================



In the baseball playoffs the Braves were up 3-1. Numbers say there chance to win the series is 85%. When they lost the series the numbers become part of the stats.

The numbers change little. Except the team lost.


Just win games Baker.

During one game I saw Odell come up to Chubb after he scored a TD and say "I want to score a TD."

Chubb's response was "I just want to win."

It is clear to many except the author.

So they are all wrong and they have the agenda.

Same strategy is often applied to politics.

Attack the messenger when the facts don't fit the agenda.

Then call foul and claim personal attacks.

j/c:

Baker is now ranked 28th out of 37 rated qbs by PFF. His QBR is ranked 9th overall. According to NextGen Stats, Baker is still holding the ball longer than any other qb at 3.12 seconds per play. One area where he has really improved is his TD/Int rate. 15 TDs to 7 interceptions. I think he had just 1 more TD than interceptions last year.

A few observations:

--It seems like when we lose, it's a "team loss." Our coaches did not make adjustments. Baker was getting killed. OBJ is a distraction. The defense stinks. Etc, ect. Meanwhile, I read things about "Baker put the team on his shoulders" when we win. Or, the team 1 and 31 before he got here and are now winning. What? Why is it a team loss when we lose and not a team win?

Folks, who I don't even bother responding to anymore, can continue w/the attacks, but I provide ample evidence to support my opinions. Using game tape from guys who have played the position and are paid to analyze games is a better argument than "you have an agenda."

As a teacher, I always thought eliciting as many opinions as possible was a good thing. It is clear that there are posters here who don't subscribe to that theory. In fact, they try to shout down others who don't agree w/them. I will continue to speak my mind, but I am NOT going to get into the petty, personal exchanges that are so pervasive on this board.

No-one is shouting you down. Many posters are disagreeing with you.

No-one is using "you have an agenda" as a counter point - it is an observation anyone who pays attention makes supplied with other counter points.

As for Team wins and team losses - I suggest you go read the Jarvis Landry thread where it went from praising Landry to the team. I know there is a 95% probability that you already read that thread and choose to ignore it because it doesn't help the misdirection you want to post.



You talk a lot about being a teacher. As a teacher, I would not have wanted my children to be taught by you.

As for your football takes - Baker finally played a great game, was instrumental in coming from behind to take the lead multiple times. Together with the team orchestrated a winning drive with 1:06 left in the game ..... and your take was "Baker's team mates don't celebrate with him".

Go ahead an defend that and show me which "Experts" are saying that.

All of this post is 100% truth, whether you wish to engage or acknowledge that's not my call.

Perfect example of a stat driven objective analysis.


And others have an agenda?

I don't see what you see. I see people who are obviously in Baker's corner, and I see people that have already made up their minds that Baker is toast. And then I see the vast majority of the folks on here rooting/hoping for Baker (which can, at times, temporarily pull them over to the first group), but acknowledging that he needs to play better in order to continue being the starter for this offense.

As for me, I'm hoping he can get there, but clock is ticking and this obscene amount of offensive talent we've assembled is going to be wasted if something doesn't happen (light clicks on for Baker, or we make a huge move at the QB position).

The answer is obvious when you break it down to the game against the Bengals.

And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of Baker apologists when he does poorly. There are also those who wish to minimize when he does well by throwing out other games to minimize a good performance by him.

But the comments about Baker carrying the team in the Cincy game is fairly accurate. All one needs to do is look at how we scored, how the running game wasn't being effective and without a great performance from Baker we would not have won that game. That includes a last minute comeback drive to seal the game.

I also find such comments pretty funny coming from you. After all, it has been you who has made the point that we need to see Baker carry a game. That we needed to see him come through when the game is on the line. That we need to see if he can put the game on his shoulders.

That's exactly what we saw last Sunday. It's odd that when people point out that we saw exactly what you have claimed you needed to see, suddenly your story changes.

You keep making the picture more and more obvious.

It was. Completely. Unmitigatedly. Irrefutably.
There wasn't one part of the team that did their job well - or even acceptably - in Pittsburgh. In either of our losses, actually.

If you can point to a unit that didn't suck, then we can praise them, but not only do I doubt this can be done, the rest of the team still totally sucked.


If you can't see that and cannot acknowledge that it truly was a team loss, and still attempt to hang it all on the play of one player, then yes, you ARE completely biased and ARE posting purely from the standpoint of an agenda born from your dislike of that one player. There is no middle ground there.

I'm not speaking for anyone besides myself, but I'll just say this. When people talk about Baker putting the team on his back, the first thing I think of is, "where was all that the week prior?"

It's probably not fair, but I put an he-couldn't-do-that-against-a-good-team type of asterisk next to his Cinci comeback performance.

I am gong to quote my comments about Baker right after I signed on on Sunday. This was my first post of the evening. I think my comments were fair. I did praise Baker for coming through in the clutch and making tough throws on the game-winning drive. I certainly think my post is more about Baker and Pure Football than posts that talk about an individual not wanting me to teach their child or how I have an agenda because I post stats and game-tape.

Somewhat understandable, BUT... he still did it, against an NFL team.

22 straight completions and 5 TDs while throwing into tight windows is still what it is: pretty damn impressive.

Yeah, it'd be great if he did it against Pittsburgh, but it'd also have been great to see other units on the team function, too. One person can only do so much.... if 21 of the players we're putting on the field aren't getting it done, the one isn't going to be able to do anything. Nobody does it all by themselves. Ever.

I totally agree. I’m just saying that the people who are saying this aren’t the Colin Cowherd’s of the world.

And I think, at least to this point, there is some validity to that. I also think that could be said about the entire team as well. In both the Baltimore and Pittsburgh game the entire team played terribly.

In the Cincy game our D still played terribly. What we did see however was people on the O were making plays.

We are certainly a work in progress. What we are seeing is not a finished product by any stretch of the imagination. What I have been looking for is certainly something that people speak about often. There are two adages that come to mind. "Waiting for the light to come on" and "the games slows down for him".

It's simply an indication that your QB starts to see the field and process information quicker. Now this was only one game and certainly not against a great team. So whether that is what we actually saw or not is certainly up for debate.

But it's a start. It's something we haven't really seen over the last season and a half. So I think it's something we all hope is the beginning of what we will see in the future. And in fairness, when was the last time you've seen Baker perform this way against any team?

While we can look back at previous games. While we can look at the shortcomings we've seen in his game. Five straight drives ending in touchdowns wasn't s fluke. After five incompletions to start the game including an int, his performance after that does show he doesn't dwell on the last play.

I guess my point is that it has to start somewhere. And what he did the week before doesn't diminish what we saw in the Cincy game.

I don't expect anyone to keep up with my posts or opinion. But I'm neither on the Baker bandwagon nor am I one who dislikes Baker. I try to be objective and much like the HC does, I try to take it one game at a time. And in this case, in this game, I think Baker certainly deserves high praise for his performance.

It's a trend I think you would agree that we see continue.

Beating bad and average teams is something to build on. Everything starts somewhere.

I agree w/this take. Baker deserves a lot of credit for overcoming the poor start and balling for the rest of the game. I do think Stefanski helped him by getting him those easy completions, which were basically handoffs, to stop the bad plays and start the streak. All basketball players know that if you are in a slump, an easy lay-up or free throw might turn things around.

With that said, Baker made a ton of excellent throws. Loved the TD pass to Njoku. We don't win that game if Baker doesn't play well. The best thing I saw was that he got it done in the clutch. He made a lot of good throws when it mattered. I haven't seen him do that before. It's growth!

I don't think he put the team on his shoulders, much like I don't think he was the only reason we lost to Baltimore and Pittsburgh. One of Baker's biggest issues is that he struggles when he is facing pressure. His numbers under pressure are really bad. We saw what happened against Pittsburgh when he was pressured on 52 percent of his throws. On Sunday, the OL was unreal. Baker had a lot of time in clean pockets almost all game long. I will give Baker credit for making a tough throw over the middle when he was pressured quickly on that last drive. That was clutch. But, the OL deserves credit, too. So do the receivers. They were making really good catches.

We are going to have to wait and see how he does when a team gets pressure on him, but this game was a positive step in the right direction.

I understand what you're saying. I don't disagree with you at all. I explained what I did mostly to provide some context behind my hesitance to get too excited over Baker's Cinci game.

I would say everyone is on board with that - as I mentioned, Cinci got no pressure on Baker. I think that might be the single biggest factor. Encouraging as it was the Cinci game was only one step in the process.

Maybe Stefanski learned something about coaching ..!

Maybe Stefanski needs take notice about what is best for his QB and not worry so much about what is best for others on the offensive side of the ball.

Getting your QB into a rhythm might be the most important factor that Stefanski needed to learn about how to coach Mayfield, to get the best performance from him.

..whatever it takes!

Not sure how Dan comes up with that? He seemed to play pretty well when Odell was out.

That's what he is saying, peen.

he said Baker was way better

OK...I didn't watch the vid. I just read the caption and the way it reads made me think he was saying Baker was confused, not knowing the play or not knowing where to throw the ball.

The way I see it, he's likely still thinking too much.

Against a rush like Cinci where our OLine had no trouble giving him time, his brain could process and function.
Against a defense like Pittsburgh where EVERYTHING and EVERYONE was hurried up because of the crazy pressure they were bringing, things simply aren't innate enough, yet, for him to be able to just act without thinking... and thinking will get you killed.

Hi!

My first post and I’m almost 60 years old from Scandinavia so have patience with me.

I have faith in Baker. To survive he needs a good O-line to protect him and as it looks he will with time learn how to develop into a effective QB who can carry his team. Just give him love and support then further experience will take care of the rest.

Welcome to DT!

You’ll have fun here. Out of curiosity, how’d you become a Browns fans?

and what’s your screen name mean?

Welcome to the site!

I decided to find myself a favorite NFL team in 2017.

My TV subscription offered me all NFL matches and I needed something new so I started to follow Total Access. At that time everything was about the NE Patriots and Cleveland Browns was at the bottom. Simple logic about who’s going to progress most together with nice orange colors and a cool name made it easy.

In the 2018 draft we had three first round picks so from that moment I was caught. Baker immediately made a good impression on me so from there I was a Brown supporter and Bake was my man. Now I watch Browns every week. I follow Quincy on YT. I dislike Colin Cowherd and I think Cynthia F on Total Access is quite hot. Something like that. In the future I will do my best to come to Cleveland and watch a home game. That’s one of my dreams after the Pandemic.

Floquinho is Portuguese and means a white snowflake. My wife is Brazilian and she named our first cat that name. So whenever something goes wrong I blame my poor cat.

Welcome!

Welcome to the board! When you finally get a chance to come to a game make sure you let the board know. There’s a group of posters who tailgate (Party) before every game. I’m sure they would love to meet you!

That's hysterical in an awesome way!!!

Welcome to the board!!!

How would your user name be pronounced?

FLOCK-in-ho?

Flow-kin-ho?

Again I’m just curious, not poking fun.

By the way, if you’re into hockey - you very well could be, since you’re in Sweden - there’s a small group of us who gather in the Tailgate forum. FYI.

Hint: It's Portuguese. I would guess......

Flah-queen-ho.

LMAO!

I did not let that sink in, thought it was a Swedish word.

I’m not the sharpest rock in the field, either.

LOL.

One of my neighbors was a Brazilian model who married some rich guy who owns multiple car dealerships. I love listening to her talk. And, I don't mind looking at her while I listen.

my stupid post won't delete

delete

doesn't work. LOL

You got me curious, lamp.

I just looked it up. I was close, but messed up the second syllable. It should be flah-keen-ho.

https://forvo.com/word/floquinho/#pt

ya'll need to watch that video.

No emphasis on any syllable?

Welcome to the board.

A few tips and pointers:

1, Definitely let us know when you are coming for a game. But also anytime you are coming to the US, even if Cleveland is not on the agenda. We have dawgtalkers spread throughout the county.

2, Avoid the political forum and political threads. You will be much happier if you stay away from those vile things.

3, Stay warm. I spent a New Year's eve in Stockholm a while back. Dang, was it cold.

4, Assuming that Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian is your first language. Remember that your English is probably better than a large number of people posting.

5, Have fun and enjoy yourself

Thanks to all of you!

I like this forum because of the good atmosphere and that so many discuss in a reasonable way. Off course I follow the NHL. We have several players from my area at the highest level, just recently Viktor Hedman from Tampa Bay won the Stanley Cup.

Back to Baker.

I think it’s essential that Cleveland find some stability and build on what they have. With a ambitious and well educated front office, our new HC Stefanski and several quality player I hope that the Browns has a good platform to take the next step. A talented and intelligent guy like Baker should be part of that journey. It takes time to achieve long term success.

The W against the Bengals showed that Stefanski and Baker has what it takes to build a chemistry. Instead of taking the easy route and a field goal Baker opted for a high risk/high reward option. That’s bold and gave the whole franchise a little bit of swagger. You could argue that if he had failed he had jeopardize his career as a potential franchise QB. Changing mindset from a loser mentality isn’t easy because not only one or two players need to have the right confidence, you need a self confident head coach and a fan base who wants to win more then they don’t wants to lose. That change of mindset needs a catalyst and Baker Mayfield has that special mentality that is absolutely crucial to overcome that fear.

So the question is if the owners and the fan base is willing to give Baker the time he needs because without experience it’s hard to reach full potential.

Did you click on the little arrow and listen to the pronounciation?

j\c

J.Manzeil, Baker, enuff with these horrible first round experimental jokes get a real Q.B. for a change no matter what the cost or keep on being the the Steelers butt boys...Browns are a joke , lmao

Welcome to the Board. New Browns fans bring new life and enthusiasm.

Patience is probably not a virtue of many fans or the owner. Losing has cut a deep wound. Haslam has run the organization like a microwave cook.

Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry will be challenged to climb a vertical cliff covered in ice.

Until the Browns actually have continuity at the top; potential is just a dirty word.

Baker is in his third year. And this year is extremely important because of his contract. He has been inconsistent like many young quarterbacks. The Bengal game was a nice step in development. As long as he continues to show growth and improvement the team has a chance to improve as well.

If Baker can develop inside the scheme of Stefanski and gain his trust. Then team growth and the critical chemistry between head coach and quarterback will evolve.

The team is in a good place at 5-2. We have a great chance to have a winning season for the first time in many moons.

IMO each game stands alone. I try not to overreact to a single win or loss. We got ripped by the Steelers. We won a close hard fought game against the Bengals.

We play a good team in the Raiders this week. A game that could mean a bunch come the end of the year in tie breakers. We have to continue to progress as an offense without Odell. We will have Chubb coming back in the future.

In order to have further success and any chance if we were to get to the playoffs; we must improve defensively.

We either need to add some pieces. Or, we need for the players on the roster to play better. No team can continue to give up the yards and points we have and have long term success.

This week is the half way point. Then we have a bye. Hopefully we can get a few guys back and be ready for the second half of the season.

That's a brilliant and accurate analogy. Sad but oh so true.

He makes a really good point about the Dline. Garrett is getting double and triple teamed, and your other guys can't win much less dominate against backups (guys that couldn't beat out some pretty poor starters).

Vers,

I think some of the problem here is that (and I'll paraphrase Gen. Patton) "we are two peoples separated by a common language". I feel like on DT so often we all use the same words when it comes to player expectations/evaluations, but we tend to have different definitions of those words.

All season you've rightly pointed out that Baker needs to show that he can put a game on his shoulders and be clutch. You've clearly praised him for being clutch in this last game, but you are hesitant to describe it as a game where he put it on his shoulders.

If that is your position, what would a game where he does put it on his shoulders look like to you? I'm not asking because I want to tell you that you are wrong about anything, I'm just really curious to know how you would define it to better understand your position.


I would concede that the Oline playing as well as it should be expected to clearly helped. But past that, there was way more that could have gone wrong that didn't:

-If DPJ played like a 6th Rd WR
-If Bryant played like a 4th Rd project
-If Njoku decided to remind everyone why people call him inconsistent
-If Higgins played a game that made it obvious as to why he's seen so little of the field

--then Baker wouldn't have had the game he did, we lose, and we're again speculating for yet another week whether or not Baker can put a game on his shoulders and be clutch.

Fair post. I'll reply to this part.



You are asking a former coach and player. So, keep that in mind when I answer.

I don't think one player wins or loses the game. I never once argued w/those that said "this was a team loss." There are too many moving parts to make a claim either way.

I think Baker was part of the reason for our losses. And I think he was part of the reason as to why we have won games. I praised Baker far more for Sunday's victory than anyone else o the team. I really was impressed that he came through in the clutch. However, I recognize that Stef did a good job of managing the clock, the OL blocked very well except for one play, and receivers made excellent catches and even got some separation. It's a team win just like it is a team loss.

I only brought it up because I have read on here from multiple posters that Baker put the team on his shoulders after the Colts game and Bengals game, while reading how it was a team loss when we lost to Baltimore in Pittsburgh. That seems inconsistent to me.

I'll sum up by saying that Baker was a huge reason why we won on Sunday, but it was still a team win. I will also say that Baker was part of the reason we lost to Baltimore and Pittsburgh, but they were definitely team losses.

I do appreciate you taking the time to ask me to explain my position. I prefer that then you, and others, just allowing a few select posters to speak for me.

Stay safe out there, bro. I'm still praying for you and your colleagues.

I hope nobody said Baker put the team on his back for the Colts win. His second half was NOT brag-worthy.

I'll PM you the answer.

Thank you for your support. I don't know if its worse on the streets or what's been going on behind the scenes at the station, but I think we're in for a bumpier ride.

I get what you are saying about the losses. The more I think about it, I don't think its a totally unfair critique. In games like those you hope somebody is going to step up and make a play that sparks the comeback. That could be Landry making a tough couple of catches... Chubb ripping off a 45yrd TD... a key turnover. Those are things you hope will happen. I would concede that your QB is different. I don't think its enough to hope your QB can give you a spark, I think its their responsibility to. Well, at least to try.


I think 2 things can be true at once: I think it can be a team win, but also be a game in which your QB put it on his shoulders. Baker made some A+ throws and the guys he threw to made some great plays. Given who the guys were making those receptions, IMO it would not be inappropriate to credit Baker with elevating the guys around him.

In the end he now needs to show this game wasn't a fluke.

I don't believe anyone did. Consider the source.


Congrats to Baker. Well deserved.

This was a surprise, but good for him and his confidence. So much better after OBJ wasn't a priority. Odell has been slow to get turned around on a few routes. But BM had a string of catches, record string!

let's do it again soon!

j/c...

Obviously, being good in the RZ is good.


How do we glean any further understanding from that? RZ plays feature a compressed field, which I understand doesn't play to Baker's coverage-reading ability. Are RZ plays more bang-bang, and tend to be more single-read passing plays? Are teams more worried about our RBs inside the 20?

MIP if you ask me

Which is crazy because last year we were SO BAD in the red zone

I think teams are legitimately worried about our RB's from at least the 20. Chubb especially has shown a knack for finding the endzone or coming pretty daggone close to hittin pay dirt whenever he touches the ball within the 20.


I have to wonder though, given how productive Baker has been with this 1 read stuff... I'm having a harder time being too critical of it. If he were just hitting these 3-4 yrd passes, ok then. But he's not. He's efficient he's in control, he's making plays, he's hitting all the passes we want him to, he's scoring TDs.

I know its not a blueprint for long term success, but I think it forces a serious question: Should we stop expecting him to be more cerebral and instead give him the space to be a gunslinger? Don't get me wrong, there's plenty for him to work on in terms of the skill side of things, I think he's plenty smart enough. But personality is a part of his game too. If you don't give the guy enough room for his personality to show, everything else becomes moot or even counter productive because he'll never be comfortable in any system if Baker doesn't feel like he's allowed to be... well, Baker.

I don't know. Its just something I've been mulling for a few weeks because while his effort is noticeable, he's always looked like he's playing tight, not as confident as we've seen him, and not having much fun.

Welcome on board. Funny as hell re: the name story.

Smh

Baker was terrible last year. Lamar Jackson won the MVP. That’s it. That’s the answer.

(Also, what is the face of the league even?)

Stuff like this is purposely stupid and then people fall for it.

If anyone is the face of the league, Mahomes is the face of the league.

Like you said, Lamar won the MVP last year because his team won big during the regular season and the Browns sucked.

This year, Lamar is not getting much love. His passing numbers are down and people are criticizing him for it. Baker just was named Player of the Week because he had an excellent game. He was previously criticized because he was not playing very well and he played awful against the top two teams in the division.

There's a point here people will miss.

That any yahoo can fire up twitter and post cherry-picked stats.

There's a player on the Browns roster that has a 156 passer rating, 75% completion %, and scores on 25% of his throws... bUt He'S nOt EvEn CoNsIdErEd FoR Qb1!!!!!!!1!!!!!21!

I didn’t miss it, it’s just irrelevant to the argument that’s being made.

(Jackson’s yards include his rushing yards.)

and include Rushing TDs. His numbers are totally inflated here to compare them to what Baker has done.

I don't know if a big point or argument is being made. I don't think the twitter post is being used as anything more than a highlighter pen to highlight something that might be worth remembering or at least not forgetting.

It's a bit like when people - amidst the talk about how badly Baker was playing and how many shortcomings he has - say, hey, let's not forget we are 5-2.

No one is saying that because we are 5-2 Baker doesn't need to improve. It's like a - hey maybe the sky isn't falling as badly as some posters are talking about. Nothing more, nothing less. Just how I read it.

I'd be inclined to agree with you if it weren't for the last line in the tweet.

Bingo.

Just adding:

What do you think would have been the likelihood of Lamar playing the kind of 2nd half game that was required of Baker?

Um, they are not "cherry-picked." That's all of them.

That's all of what? It absolutely is cherry-picked. It's Total yards, Average completion %, and total TDs and INTs.

It doesn't say anything about how both are completely different QBs (in terms of style). Doesn't say anything about the teams around either and how far along in development they are. It doesn't show how bad Baker looked when he faced Balt and Pitt (also doesn't show how Lamar was when they faced KC). To be honest, those stats really don't show anything of value.

I think more of this is being made than it needs to be made - but I think the Lamar yards include all of his runs too. So in one way the stats do include a *portion* of the impact Lamar's running game and style etc has.

Bottom line is the story isn't written or finished on EITHER QB.

But the last line of the tweet ? I've never heard of the dude who tweeted. I don't value his opinion - but what I think he's referring to is that 2 weeks ago one QB was roundly being condemned across many media platforms as a bust, a guy who can't handle pressure, can't read a D .... etc .... the other isn't.

Meh - maybe it's all semantics. To be honest, as I said, I don't care what the twitter guy posted. Likewise I don't care what Cowherd or other chock jocks say - or most of the talking heads whether they played or not. Baker pre week 7 wasn't a finished product and wasn't a bum. Baker post week 7 isn't a finished product and isn't a HOF'er. He had a really good game. Next we need to beat the Raiders and Baker needs to keep improving and eliminate the dumb plays!

One guy was being lambasted because he was terrible last year and hasn’t been good this year and the other won the MVP award.

Ok.

it would be pretty dope if Lamar managed to finish his 7th game with (-52) yards, 3 TD's and 4 picks, though.

To be fair, before last weekend, I would have thought Lamar more likely at this point to have a day like that than Baker.


That said, I will say this:

In 2010, I felt very early in that first half of the season that Derek Anderson was Fool's Gold. I regularly called him as much; it was very clear very early to me that he was far more a product of his receivers bailing him out than anything else. While Baker asks a LOT of his receivers at times in terms of making some crazy catches, I do not feel the same way about Baker. I think he still has plenty of room to grow and improve, and I think we will see that more and more as the season progresses (and I have zero doubts we will see moments of regression as well), but I think that he is the real deal for us. I think this offense is the real deal.

Our defense, however, is more like cheap brass that gets hastily polished at times; not even fool's gold, lol

He's shown the capability (potential) of doing all the the things people who criticize say he has to be able to do in order to keep from being replaced. He's just so dang inconsistent. Even things like accuracy and ball placement can vary widely from game to game (and within a game, as we saw in Cinci).

Sorry - I don't see Lamar ever making 22 completitions in a row. I see him being a stud and carrying his team and making extraordinary plays and doing things Baker could never do to extend plays and make plays outside the pocket ... do not see him making 22 straight completitions. jmo.

I agree 100% on Anderson. Talk about a one read QB? I *felt* like Anderson decided where the ball was going pre-snap and it didn't matter what unfolded, he was throwing it to that read.

As for Baker being inconsistent. I think we all see it, clearly he has had some struggles, and he especially struggles at the moment when there is pressure. The good news is when he's good he's been very good so far... and to be fair in terms of interceptions and not-smart plays, the new coaching and 2020 Baker has shown improvement. It's a process. I've seen enough to be encouraged.

The "book" on Lamar is to keep him in the pocket and - if at all possible - stay ahead of the Ravens on the scoreboard. (Tough to do with their defense.)

If the goal is to keep a QB in the pocket, that suggests that team WANT him to throw it. All the accolades early this year about how he's changed/improved his throwing prowess were wildly exaggerated. When they can't have him running it, he's very average or even below average.

Amazing talent...not amazing QB. JMO

Definitely a different breed of QB, but almost all the QB's that have had early success have a clear mobility advantage (and not just the "he can move in the pocket" stuff).

Mobile:
Mahommes
Watson
Allen
Jackson
Murray

Not so mobile:
Trubisky
Mayfield
Darnold
Rosen
Jones
Haskins

Jackson just takes the mobility factor up about 12 notches. Hopefully, the less-mobile guys will still develop over time.

j/c:

I wonder who NFL GMs would prefer as their qb if they had a choice of Baker and Lamar? I wonder what the players around the league think?

I have a hunch it is very different than what some on this board think.

I agree w/your lists other than Trubisky. He is a very good runner. Nagy hasn't utilized that much. And Trub's downfield accuracy is really bad. But, he can run.

Obviously Jackson in a landslide.

Herbert is not the most mobile, but is doing fine.

I bet you it would be something like 26-6 Lamar.

There will be at least 6 GMs who are honest with themselves that they couldn't design an offense around him and would be concerned he'd get hurt in the long run. The Ravens are playing with fire with how much they use him as a running back.

It's getting to the point where people are confusing Lamar and Kyler. They both can run. Only one can pass.

It's a super short sample - but Herbert has really impressed so far. I am surprised. Hope he continues his level of performance.

Today, they’d choose Lamar.

Who knows what they will think tomorrow or in five years.

I don't think anyone would choose Lamar. He works because of the personnel and system they set up specifically for him.

Imagine if he gets hurt. They are up [censored] creek. How will they plug anyone into that system?

That’s funny, because baker has been the QB rolling around on turf injured.

j/c - I think a discussion on which QB NFL GM's would choose is a little pointless. If you'd have polled them at the end of year 1 it would have been unanimously Baker. If you asked them after year 2 - most probably unanimously Lamar ... as I wrote before the book isn't written on either QB at the movement. Paying attention to areas of weakness - and seeing progress is more important than anything else for both QB's.

This breakdown of Baker from the Cinci game was posted by OCD in the Post Game thread very late ... I only just saw it. It's good enough and highlights some progress by Baker that is worth posting here imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9w2cJsj_h8&feature=emb_logo

And as I have said before - it's one game and it doesn't mean anything unless Baker keeps doing these things and performing well -- and he will also need to do it when under pressure which he wasn't vs Cinci. But it's very encouraging.

Agree.

Lamar is a unique talent. The problem is that he doesn't fit well into traditional NFL offenses. The reason he has been as successful as he has is because Baltimore created a brand new offense to take advantage of what he does best. He was lucky to have been drafted by them because the vast majority of team would not have done so. I think NE would have, and Sf as well. Maybe Pittsburgh. I have a hard time thinking of other teams that would have been that bold.

Had we drafted Lamar instead of Baker, for sure we would not have crafted such an offense and would have ruined yet another Qb.

Ironically, he would have fit in here well, (personnel-wise) as things turned out.

Big hitter WRs, 3 high quality TE, a quality OL, and a pair of All-Pro RB, with depth beyond that.

You don't trust Todd Haley?

As far as Lamar getting injured, and I said this around the draft as well, I am not super concerned about it. Yes he is this but he is shifty and bendy. He does a great job of avoiding the direct hits and he is bendy and flexible which helps protect against injury.

I worry more about the big Qb's who like to run like Josh Allen, Cam Newton, and Andrew Luck. They are big strong guys who think they can lower a shoulder and take on a linebacker rather than avoid him like Lamar would. Additionally, many think that being more muscular is beneficial but a would tend to disagree. I think being more muscular puts more stress on the tendons and ligaments unless they keep stretched and nobody likes to stretch. In my mind, being flexible is more important than being muscular.

I feel I need to add this caveat. Many of you know that I am a doctor, but I do not specialize in orthopedics or sports medicine so please take this as my personal opinion and not take as me having any more expertise on the issue than any of you.

Honestly none of that matters without Greg Roman ... jmo

Greg Roman wasn’t the OC when he went 6-1 and went to the playoffs his rookie season.

Quite Honestly, if that draft was held again, today I would be ok with Allen.

I fear injury with Jackson, he is similar to RGIII. Shanahan ruined him. I dont think Harbaugh would do the same.

But Baker is on the team, and has not embarrassed himself.

More and more evidence is beginning to suggest that Kitchens was not the right choice.

This is true - but how competent / good did Lamar look as a package year 1 vs year 2? If folks are unhappy in Baker's play during our 5-2 start this year and are inferring Baker is the weak link .... how much of the weak link was Lamar in that 6-1 record? They had a spectacular D and a solid running game. Mabe I am totally mis-remembering but didn't Lamar do everything with his feet and look very dodgy throwing the ball year 1?

As I said - it doesn't really matter. Lamar really improved year 2 - it wasn't even close. Baker we know took huge steps backwards. Lamar started this year looking very good and has flattened his curve a bit. Baker is a little all over the shop and consistently inconsistent. I think it's a compelling and interesting storyline to watch for any neutral - as a vested fan of the Browns ... doubly so.

Didn’t they fire their OC midseason and promote Roman?

They made Roman the OC during the off-season.

j/c:

So, people were comparing Baker and Lamar and then when new questions are asked, comparing them becomes pointless. LOL...love this board.

Comparing them is pointless. But I am still going to do it because it is fun.
Not everything needs to be significant. Especially on a message board.

He did look super dodgy with the passing. But getting a team to the playoffs is all that matters.

We all need baker to succeed, but I’m pushing back on some false narratives. People can’t talk about the potential of lamar getting injured when baker has been the one rolling around the turf in pain.

Also, the passing stats means nothing. Lamar has gotten his team to the playoffs back to back seasons, and has a 3-1 head to head matchup against mayfield.

Baker is most likely ALWAYS gonna have better passing stats than lamar.....well except last year.

But what does that mean if we keep finishing third in the division, while lamar keeps winning the division?

Our QB needs to lead us to the playoffs before he can even be compared to lamar. I care about W’s.

Lamar has had the same coaching staff since day 1. Baker has had a revolving door of coaches.

Baker hasnt been rolling around the turf in pain. Our line has kept him mostly clean.

Oh, that must have been another browns QB with busted ribs.

So he had one injury in 3 years? And he wasnt even out. Not exactly fragile.

Yeah, I don't agree w/the comparison to RGIII. Lamar is wiry strong. RGIII was fast, but frail.

Both Lamar and Baker have been durable. I would not knock either guy in that area. Anyone can get hurt at anytime, but these guys have been available.

One thing to consider when thinking about Lamar being in such a good situation is to look at Baltimore's record before he took over and what they have done afterwards.

They were 4 and 5 w/out Lamar in 2018. He took over and they finished the season w/a 6 and 1 run.

Last year, they were 13 and 3. This year, they are 5 and 1. Kinda hard to argue w/that.

I have to wonder what lamar would do with the talent we have on this team.

Something tells me at the minimum, we’d have a wildcard appearance last year, simply due to his rushing.

The thing both baker and lamar do a lot is throw medicine balls. They love getting their receivers killed.

They do put their receivers in jeopardy a lot. I think that is because both don't see the field as well as they should. Both have a long, long way to go when it comes to the cerebral aspects of the game.

I certainly won't disagree with you about Lamar being the better QB. At least at this juncture. But to make it sound as if all of Baltimore's success hinges on Lamar I think is a false narrative.

For the same thing to be accomplished here, a few things would have had to of been different. When Lamar was drafted, Hue was our HC. Do you think Hue could have or would have changed our entire offense to cater to Lamar's strengths?

After Hue we had Gregg Williams for eight games and then Freddie Kitchens. So for Lamar to have accomplished what he did in Baltimore, you would first have to believe that one of these "great leaders of men" would have been able to revamp an offense to where Lamar could showcase his talents like Harbaugh has done in Baltimore rather than tried to convert him to a prototypical NFL QB.

How do you think that would have worked out with the HC's we've had in place?

I’ve never implied it’s all lamar. But we can’t keep picking and choosing when we decide the Qb position is the most important in the game and when it isn’t.

It goes back to what vers said a while ago: people will praise baker the most when we win, but then blame everyone else when we lose.

Yet when lamar wins, it’s cause of the OC and defense, and when he loses, it’s cause he can’t throw.

I’ve maintained the same position I had since the 2018 offseason: I don’t change the standards for how I judge QBs. And because of that, I told y’all I would’ve drafted lamar #1 overall.

So I dunno how he would’ve done had he’d been drafted here. But that’s not an indictment on lamar OR baker; that’s just an indictment on our history of crap coaching staffs.

So you're saying if we would have drafted Lamar and Baker had gone to a team with a more competent coaching staff that Baker may look better at this juncture?

Because I can't really make heads or tails out of what you said.

I think Hue would have made adjustments to accentuate what Lamar does best. He was the one who wanted Haley to incorporate Baker's college plays into the offense. Haley refused and said "it's a process."

One thing that no one seemingly considers when looking at those coaching staffs. Hue had success w/quarterbacks in other locations. Some praised him effusively for the work he did w/them. Haley had success w/other qbs in a few locations. Freddie had success w/Baker n 2018, but not 2019.

Yet, the overwhelming opinion of most folks seems to be that our problems were due to our coaches. Hell, Cousins played better under Stefanski last year than Baker is playing under him.

With that said, Baker had an excellent game last week. My opinion will change if he continues to play good as the season unfolds. Especially if he can learn to beat the blitz, not panic in the pocket, and make some plays when pressured. He had all day to throw last game. I think that is a significant factor.

Not sure if people have seen this, so I will try again.



Doesn't that seem to indicate that Lamar did indeed make the Ravens better?

j/c

Someone posted what the Browns record was for 3 seasons without Baker - and then the W/L record since he arrived. That was roundly dismissed by the Baker skeptics as being meaningless. Interesting how that comparison might mean something for Lamar when it suits ... smh.

I actually think lamar would still look better, due to his rushing. It’s a huge part of his success. Because he’s the better talent.

The problem with assuming hue would’ve done decent with lamar is that he couldn’t win a game with Kizer. Kizer wasn’t good, but we had atleast 2 games that we lost due to his poor coaching.

So I can’t readily assume he would’ve worked with lamar. But Greg Williams and the way kitchens was calling plays in 2018? Yea, lamar would’ve been fine.

I don’t understand what that has to do with anything.

We’re going by 2018 to current. Baker is the best QB the browns had since 99.

That isn’t really saying much when you look at the QBs we’ve had.

I took a closer look at the Ravens because the narrative around here is that Lamar walked into such a great circumstance and that he had great coaches while Baker did not.

The Ravens were 8 and 8 in 2016. They went 9 and 7 in 2017. There was talk that the Ravens were not going to keep Harbaugh. Some wanted him to come here on this board and others did not. Diam really wanted. Others did not like him at all.

So, the Ravens start 4 and 5 and Lamar is inserted and they finish 6 and 1 and make the playoffs. They go 13 and 3 the following year and win the division. They did not change coaches to improve so much. They did not significantly overhaul and improve the roster like the Browns did in the last couple of years. I don't think the argument that downplays Lamar's contributions is fair.

Just my opinion.

I know EXACTLY what it has to do with.

I'm saying that if we are going to dismiss the Pre and Post Browns win record with and without Baker . . . regardless of how good or bad previous QB's were, it seems inconsistent at best and more like a double standard to then use the Pre & Post Ravens w/l record with and without Lamar. Ravens were a much better team overall - and the comparison at QB was to an aging Flacco who has struggled for several years and can't beat out Darnold who is playing fairly poorly. . . I don't think it's a good barometer for either QB's ability.

Always with the classy - non-mocking football takes that you preach all the time to others about. Nice. Another post of mine that you didn't reply to! LOL. So transparent.

You would have to consider a couple of things. How many points were the Ravens averaging before Lamar? See, if you can't score points and your D is playing well, most certainly an improvement at the QB position makes a huge difference. So how many points was the defense giving up at the time?

If your defense is giving up less than 20 points a game and you're still losing, you need help on the O. That doesn't mean if you start winning you have a great QB. It means you have one who is good enough to put up enough points to help your defense.

It's a team sport. Actually, if you wish to look at it, we've been giving up almost 30 points a game and are still winning. I don't think you can say that about the 2018 Ravens.

Just sticking to stats:

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/teamsta...oup=D&conf=

2018 - Number 1 defense in the NFL = Ravens. Giving up less than 18 points a game.

But it all occurred in the same 2018 season....so that’s where I have to disagree with you. I’m not comparing the 2017 ravens season or the 2017 browns season. I’m just going on 2018 til now and what has happened.

Offensive efficiency skyrocketed with lamar under center.

People have to remember that *part* of the reason the ravens defense was so good was that they weren’t on the field that long. The ravens would use a half of a quarter for one freaking drive.

With an offense like that, you don’t need to score 30 a game. And it allows your defense to play with much more discipline.

Maybe ... Or maybe you could argue turning around a culture of losing and a team that went 1-31 over two years is a bigger accomplishment while dealing with HC changes and everything else that was 'Browns' pre-Baker and imminently after his arrival. I don't know - it really doesn't seem that important to me. I disagree that dismissing one set of W/L while embracing the other is really that impartial. If Baker had been kept out for longer and we'd lost more game with Tyrod at QB - and then Baker came in and turned the team around and you did the 1/l analysis over a single year - it wouldn't have made Baker's initial impact more impressive in my eyes.

For Lamar and his impact after he was introduced ... it's dramatic and you can see the offensive stats per game. . .

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/rav/2018.htm

Passing yards went down dramatically from *about* (eyeballing) 250 per game to *about* 160 per game. So Lamar did it all with his feet. No-one could stop him. Yes he made a huge difference that year. He made significant improvement in his passing game year 2. He's doing okay this year. I've never hated on Lamar as an elite talent - he and Josh Allen improved their passing accuracy more than I expected but I still think the sample size is small. I think Lamar is special with or without the great accuracy passing he showed last year.... Josh Allen I am still highly skeptical of how accurate he can be.

Are there really people who would take Baker over Lamar Jackson?

Take away Jacksons running ability absolutely I take Baker ...

But you can't do that.... Lamar HAS that added dimension to his game. It's who he is.

Even so when it comes to being a Better "Quarterback" I would take Baker all day, ... JMHO

LOL

LOL

This is an important year.

Would Mahomes have done what he has if he went to another team?

Quarterbacks are a part of an offensive scheme. Reid is a great offensive coach. Mahomes landed in a perfect spot. He was brought up in one offense.

That has meaning.

Lamer got baked into the Raven offense. To his credit he has made the most of it.

Baker needs to develop inside this offense. He is seven games in. Honestly I do not see the rush to judgement.

Let's see how this year goes.

If he remains the quarterback. Next year will be the first time he would begin a season in the same system under the same staff.

As much as that may be dismissed or minimized it is relevant.

Reading between the lines of what KS and Van Pelt have stated in press conferences. I think they like Baker.

I have no crystal ball. I just hope he is successful because that means the team is as well. My solo interest is winning.

I don't thing the Browns would have made the playoffs with Brett Farve (or insert name) at QB last year. Kitchens appears to have been the problem.

Laugh all you want Jackson is a RB not a QB he just went to the right team that has covered his shortcomings ...

Yes...and over Rosen, Darnold, Deshaun Watson, Josh Allen & Carson Wentz...to name a few.

Smh

I’m a newbie from Scandinavia and forgive my ignorance but why is it so important to judge who’s better or worse? Different skill sets and totally different circumstances.

Baker has done a phenomenal job surviving in such turbulent environment. If other QBs has better stats or more wins is irrelevant. They didn’t do it with the Cleveland Browns.

I would take Baker over Mahomes if we took away Mahomes’ arms and sight.

It is not that important, but it is a football message board. There is nothing in football that is "so important" that we have to talk about. However, some folks like to talk about football. A poster brought up a comparison between Lamar and Baker when he asked if we thought Lamar could have done what Baker did against the Bengals. That's fine. The conversation expanded and that is fine, too. I think that some folks, probably including you, don't like when Baker receives some negative attention. That's fine, but again, one of Baker's biggest boosters brought up the topic.

Plus by the end of the week, last Sunday's game gets talked out. We really don't talk college football much until Saturday and there is only so much to discuss about the upcoming game. So we end up stretching for topics to talk about and we have been looking for a "franchise" Qb for so long that Qb discussions have become our default.

I better clarify something. I was not getting on WSU for bringing the comparison up. It is a legit topic and it can be fun to discuss things like this, provided people remain civil.

Good point. However, you will find over time that this not a "yea team" Board.

It is more of break every player down on performance and PFF grades.

Each player is graded. Then either supported or criticized.

It is not so much that the team is not supported.

It is more that it is done in a cynical way. So much losing over so long a period tends to do that.

This is the first time in so long that the team is over 500. That we don't know how to act.

Well right now I'm acting happy about it. If it wasn't for a health issue in my family I'd be ecstatic!

Baker played his ass off this game. receivers completely failed him today.

So did the line with everything we invested in them we should have had 200 yards.

I don't feel horrible after this game which is a positive at this point. We play a lot of bad defenses coming up. Baker should get his feet under him.

6 drives...
4 or 5 offensive penalties (3 by the rookie tackle alone)
4 drops
2 fg's and (with a 3rd missed), and...
a fumble.

A game so boring I'm almost stopped caring who was going to win...almost.

Not sure if I should give Josh Jacobs and the Raiders' O-line too much credit, our defense was pretty shaky.

Where the hell were our LBs and DBs. Matter of fact our Dline wasn't great either. I'm afraid to look up time of poss and number of drops.

dont even do it, bro. you're gonna throw up if you do.

Iknow Berry has to do something and soon.

As fans, we must be craving more of the same after the bye week. Wasn't a gimme win, and we can explain it away with a bunch of sour-grapes excuses, but we should have been it more. This D is not good and doesn't seem really concerned about it. The LB and secondary work was shameful. And a drive would help. Can't wait for the snappy explanations.

He won't be doing anything until March.

Looks like more of an inflammatory headline than actual substance. This is the problem with editors and writers that have to write catchy headlines to get clicks.

Stupid is as stupid does

So, on the ESPN QB ranking, Watson scored 7 points against the Browns who give up an average of 27 points per game and moved UP ONE SPOT. Throwing for 160 yard and no INTS...

Mayfield throws for 130 yards and no INTs.. should have scored 17 points and he fell 3 spots in the QB rankings...

Oh well.

More teams will take Baker over Lamar than some think. It is definitely not unanimous that 32 teams would take Lamar over Baker today. The reasons why Baker was drafted #1 are the same reasons why someone would still take Baker over Lamar. I mean, you may think those GMs are wrong, but that's ok and a different story.

Browns offensive line gave Baker Mayfield more time to throw than any other QB got in Week 11

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2020/11/...got-in-week-11/


Baker Mayfield didn’t exactly light up the stat sheet in Sunday’s win over the Philadelphia Eagles. But Mayfield attacked the Eagles pass defense effectively, and he got some help from his offensive line and pass protection to make it happen.

Mayfield completed just 12 of his 22 pass attempts in the steady rain on Sunday. Those completions netted 204 yards and included downfield strikes to KhaDarel Hodge and Rashard Higgins that set up the Browns offense nicely.

Per Next Gen Stats, the Browns gave Baker Mayfield the longest average time to throw of any quarterback in Week 11. Mayfield had 3.56 seconds on average to throw. Some of that comes from play-action fakes and a couple of designed rollouts and downfield throws as well. He was sacked three times by the Eagles.

Mayfield also had the best “air yards to the sticks” of Week 11. That means the Browns threw the ball beyond the first down marker on pass attempts better than anyone. Having the time to let those longer routes develop depends a lot on the pass protection, and the Browns passed the test there.

SWEET LIBERTY! I've been waiting patiently for us to start actually throwing at the sticks on 3rd down. The 2-3 yard tosses on 3rd and long were confirmed, re-confirmed, and re-re-confirmed to NOT work.

j/c

The last 3 weeks have been so tough to gauge how Baker is progressing - weather has been brutal. Someone else posted in the Post Game thread, one of the better barometers on how Baker played during this 3 game stint is to simply say that he out performed both Watson and Wentz who are two QB's that many folks who are down on Baker often refer to as being much better than Baker and are referred to as Franchise QB's while trying to insinuate Baker is a bust. . . I am sure that the 3 game bad weather skid decimated Baker's quarterback rating and ranking and I am sure the statistics will be used against him without context by some in the near future. But I still believe we are winning WITH our QB and not "despite" our QB. Just how I see it.

One major trend - I think in many games this season we have seen Baker progressing through his reads ... we've seen him move the safeties with his eyes a few times. Hope it continues.

Definitely the product of good OL play (thank you coach Callahan) but also a product of a strong Running game and the use of play action. That is Stefanski's mantra on offense and so far its been a winning fomula!