DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 3

Was I reading this right during the game last night? Rodgers only has 80 something INTs for his whole career?

He has 88 total, some might be postseason and not included the stat you saw.

He hasn't had a double digit interception year since 2010.

I think the quite stadiums have something to do with it. Where you can draw people offsides even on away games with the hard count.

I need to re-re-watch the Jags game to get a count...but...how many throws did Baker make Sunday - NOT in a hurricane or constant downpour - that possibly 3/4 of the starting QBs in the NFL could only DREAM to make?

Release, drive/power, accuracy...it's darned impressive. He had many throws that displayed the supposedly-elusive "touch". I believe 2-3 on the very first drive.

He had two horrible misses and - at least - two other incompletions that were simply not good enough...maybe even a couple completions that actually could have been "better".

Taylor had a drop that demonstrated that he really shouldn't be on the roster and H Bryant dropped an easy TD pass...I don't (right now) remember any other drops.

I think I'd rather have a QB who has to get more consistent with his "touch" (touch that he already has), than a QB who simply cannot make all the throws required at the NFL level.

Baker can absolutely make every throw in the book. Baker is NOT Derek Anderson, who had absolutely no ability to throw with touch.

He just need to get better with his consistency. He needs to take care of his part of things. If a receiver drops it, but Baker gets it there in a location and manner where that receiver should grab it, then Baker did his job.


Side note: things I don't see much in our offense that I saw over and over again while watching the Pack vs Bears: receivers running free across the middle, getting hit in stride, without defenders draped all over them. How do the Packer receivers not have defenders in their hip pockets, or how are they getting a 3 yd cushion of inside leverage?


I think we are definitely missing OBJ.
I think there is *something* with either our WR's or our scheme where our WR's just are not getting the separation they should be.
I think Baker needs to do a better job of getting the ball where and when he needs to so that these guys can run with the ball after they get it and not in a manner that forces them to fall down and protect the ball as soon as they catch it.

He's getting better. He still has a LOT of work to do.
He is absolutely worth picking up the 5th year option and not doing so shouldn't even be a consideration.

Yeah, he had a handful of great throws. Very accurate and impressive. It’s just the inconsistency that drives a lot of us crazy. Obviously nobody is going to be perfect, but it’s weird how he’s so hot and cold

After seeing Wentz tonight, I am 98% convinced we need to give Mayfield his 5th year.

You make some really good observations but I'm not so sure I agree that we're missing OBJ as much. This isn't a knock on OBJ because I'm not so sure we're missing that "#1 WR" as we've largely come to understand it period. For a few years now Eotab has put forth the notion that a team doesn't need that prototypical #1 WR. I've always thought there was something to that and I think in Baker we see some evidence of that.

Look how well he spreads the ball around. To me it seems Baker is better and more comfortable spreading the ball around and letting a receiver get hot and rise up i.e. look at the games Landry takes over or that somewhat occasional big game from Higgins. When Landry has these monster games I never get the sense that Baker is trying to force the ball to him.

When you have a WR that is the #1 elite guy, there's sort of an obligation to get the ball to him. Trying to satisfy that feeling of obligation while simultaneously going through your progressions isn't conducive to making the right read.

Again this isn't meant as a knock on OBJ. In fact I'm willing to suppose its more of a Baker problem than it is an OBJ problem. I like Baker a lot, and I like the progress we've seen out of him to date. But he's not yet a good enough QB to where he is the driving force in a game. He's not Tom Brady where you can drop in Randy Moss and throw for 50+ TDs in a season. At this stage giving him a WR and telling him you have to get the ball to him or at least one he feels like he has to is counter productive.

I understand what you’re saying, but watching him and Jarvis this year, I have to wonder if Baker is forcing OBJ the ball for no reason.

OBJ seems to enjoy blocking. It appeared atleast early on in the season that he was more frustrated with the inaccuracy of his targets more than actual targets. Early on there were a lot of overthrows, behind, etc.

So while the ball has been getting spread around more since he’s been out, the over throws and inaccuracies from baker hasn’t actually stopped. I think it’s got better only because baker has gotten better as the season goes on, just like our entire team.

I just wonder if we exaggerate that aspect of the OBJ/mayfield situation sometimes. If it is realistic, then that’s on Bake to be more assertive. He is the guy.

I seriously doubt there’s a situation where our coaches/FO choose a WR over a QB. Same with the players. Even OBJ said he’s came to terms with his being a run first team.

Hopefully he comes back healthy next season, with a full training camp and such, and our offense will be a lot more balanced.

I see that too...it makes it easy to understand why our YAC can be wanting. I have two theories:

Our WRs aren't speedsters...so DBs aren't afraid of getting beat...therefore they jam our guys at the LOS;

Our WRs are not exactly physically imposing men...DBs aren't afraid of getting punked at the LOS...therefore they jam our guys at the LOS.

When we DO have a player crazy-open, it's usually a TE or a scheme miss by the defense (see Higgins' overthrown TD pass.)

If we had a big, take-the-top-off threat (like Perriman on the low budget side) I think we'd see more "open" WRs like you mentioned. Beckham can be that guy with his speed, but he's on the small side for those types of guys.

We may clamor for Kenny Stills...but he's 6'0". Hodge is 6'2" and looks thicker to me...and I recollect reading where he has speed.

We need to catch up to the other AFCN teams as far as the size and speed of our WRs.

I'm trying to look for phased improvements from Baker. Some of his biggest areas of improvement were staying in the pocket, progressing through reads quicker, and keeping the ball from sailing.

I do feel like I've seen noteworthy improvement in the first two, while still needing room for improvement. The third issue I believe comes down to either mechanics, nerves, or a combination thereof. I feel like it should be the most fixable issue of the three, but we'll have to see.

All I know is that Baker will need to keep his composure over the next two games and not let the scenario overwhelm him.

I re-watched the Jags game. To my eye (translation: take it for what it's worth) I saw exactly 1 bad throw that could NOT easily be attributed to jacked up footwork/throwing technique. By bad, I mean the really bad misses (the 2 missed throws in the endzone, for example). In this game, the poor technique was really evident. He does that goofy-looking hop/skip throw thing when he's off-balance while on the run. In the pocket, he's either leaning back or he sometimes does a weird hip/core contortion to whip the ball because his whole body is squared up to where he wants to fling it.
He had one throw that, while completed, didn't offer a wide-open Landry any chance of YAC. On first glance, this was really disappointing, but looking again I saw Baker had a dlineman with his hands up in his throwing lane, and Landry was pretty far downfield. He had to get it over the lineman, and downfield before Landry got crunched. I'll take this all the time over when Baker gets his receivers destroyed with poorly placed passes. This is something else he needs to figure out.

To me, this is a positive thing. His issue isn't that he can't do it, it's that he's maddeningly inconsistent. So then the question becomes... can he address those weaknesses. If the majority of his misses can be traced back to throwing/movement technique, then that is fixable (and the coaching staff has already started on that.

My thoughts aren't in the vein of "we need a #1 WR", but more the larger impact he has on a defense when he's out there and the trickle down effect that has on the rest of our WR's. As they roll coverage toward him, that helps the other guys and it also helps create a little more room for Chubb & Hunt. It was the way he helped our offense stress a defense both short and long.

He absolutely was. I think it was getting better before OBJ got hurt. I think Baker was looking OBJs way too often, forcing the ball to him, waiting for him to get open which caused him to hold the ball longer. Especially if it started getting later in the game and OBJ hadn't been involved yet, it's like you could see the tension in Baker rising to get him the ball. OBJs history of sideline antics when he feels like he's not being utilized probably don't help.

I think OBJ was a big detriment to our offense but it wasn't so much because of him, it was because he (and his larger than life reputation) were living in Baker's head. But as I said, I think with the emphasis on the running game it was getting better and both players seemed to be getting more comfortable with it.

JMHO, thinking everything will be back to normal next season is wrong. The virus has/will change everything forever. 60 Minutes show showed millions of 20-40 year olds losing energy, mental focus, etc. Training camps, football as we knew it probably is gone.
We are all replaceable, we'll have to pay lineman, our biggest strength NOW/ and Chub. I'm not in favor of paying big money to Bake. He's replaceable easily......GO Browns!!!

We are years away from anything like "old normal" again.

It took us 20 years to find Baker and now he's replaceable?

Yes, for 20 years Browns fans swore up and down that you couldn't win in the NFL without a good QB.. we now have one that has taken us from 0-16 to 8-3 and the verge of the playoffs n 3 years but the QB has nothing to do with it..

I read (but didn't go back and watch) that on the Higgins overthrow he also had a dlineman's hand up to deal with...now...that is not an excuse...he MUST learn to deal with that.

I'd like to think that when he's comfortable in the offense and innately knows where the defenders are as a result, that he can shot-put the darn thing over the LOS without worrying about how open Higgins really was.

Could be wishful thinking...time will tell.

This ^ is spot on. I don't think it was OBJ moaning about getting the ball and I don't think it was Baker trying to make OBJ "happy". I think it was Baker trying to determine what the hell is going on - both in his own head and on the field - and knowing that he has an all-world talent to his left or right if he's unsure. When in doubt, go with the all-world guy. When the doubt starts to wane, I'd like to think he will revert back to the play/scheme and trust (understand?) what was called and what he sees.

I think (hope?) it's all just a symptom of the constant change and that we are seeing that waning as the season moves on.

The Titans game will be a better indicator of whether we are as good as are most 8-3 teams.

There was definitely a big ole DLine arm in his throwing lane on the Higgins overthrow. I've actually been noticing that on a lot of the balls that go high, there has been an arm up in his face.

No doubt, defenses have noticed this too and he can expect to see more of it until he starts to consistently beat it without throwing too high.

It's just part of the evolution of a young QB.
You're new and defenses don't quite know what to do with you, but then they start to figure you out. MANY young QBs fold at this point and fade away. The good ones learn how to counter what they've started to do. The great ones keep doing this over and over and consistently beat anything teams figure out on them.

e.g. a QB that doesn't continue to evolve so that defenses to have to continually evolve to beat him isn't going to ever be great, or even above average. It's the NFL and it is a copycat league. As soon as some defense figures out a way to defend you that you do not evolve beyond, you're done.

What I've noticed with Baker lately is that we've seen a few more pump-fakes lately. I think he's getting a DLine to commit to jumping an arm up in one spot to open his true throwing lane.

Before responding to this in particular I want to say great points by Swish, DC, and Willie also!

And you too Purp! I totally get what you are saying and I don't disagree with this. I guess I'm just not quite convinced OBJ had as much ancillary impact as all that. Its just from what I saw last year and early this year, while I think defenses had to respect what OBJ can bring, I don't know that they had to expend as many resources planning against him as maybe we would assume they would. Admittedly I don't have the knowledge base to analyze schemes so I could be totally misreading things. Add to it Bakers continued improvement without OBJ could be masking his impact and the contributions the running game is getting from all the WRs, to me it can be difficult distinguishing him from the others.

In the end though, your assessment is probably waaay closer to spot on than mine.

I'm not saying OBJ can't get open, but I just don't recall him getting much separation.

Great points. I too think that the Baker/OBJ things is probably more exaggerated by us than what reality is. I was impressed by OBJs mindset early this year especially in light of Baker's struggles and the establishment of Chubb (and Hunt) as the core of this offense. I totally understand any frustrations with inaccurate throws but he didn't endear himself with more than a couple Njoku type drops.

I hope he's able to come back ready to go next year too. Ultimately we're better off with him than without. Hopefully they can organically develop that QB/WR relationship on the field that turns it in to a situation where you can't talk about one without mentioning the other.

That 4th and 1 play was huge ... by Baker and Hodge

We just need to put 2019 Baker Mayfield out of our mind.

Blame it on Freddie if you will.

2018 and 2020 are very comparable.

Interesting to see these plays broken down and even more interesting to see an analyst commend Baker for not throwing the ball when I would imagine many idle sport fans might think the WR looked open.

Up until about a minute ago, I was slightly disappointed that Baker threw that ball 'high' to Landry and left no opportunity for YAC.

Looking at it again from the endzone angle, it's impressive that the ball didn't get knocked down by the Dlineman and was otherwise spot on.

Edited to add:

The talking heads on Sunday will never mention any of what was pointed out on those two videos.

How Good or Bad are the Browns Wr's at getting off the line of scrimmage without disruption?

That used to be a thing.

Not sure if anyone can vouch or verify the claim?

If this is true it would indicate that what many people commented on (and as many people scoffed at) - that Baker performs better without OBJ seems to actually be true.

It seems crazy that you have an elite WR and he doesn't appear to increase the level of play by your offense when he is playing. I said it before - I believed this to be true from the "eye test" - but this isn't on OBJ ... this is a Baker thing. If Baker is trying too hard to look at OBJ or forcing balls to him when he shouldn't, that's a Baker problem not an OBJ problem. . . To me the most logical explanation would be that Baker is maybe looking at OBJ a split second too long or too often returns to look at OBJ instead of quickly moving to a different read if OBJ is not initially open?

Hoping Baker continues to improve. Hope he gets more consistent and grows into KS's offense completely. Hope OBJ comes back and these two get on the same page - it would only be a positive for the Browns for that to happen.

It's on the internet so it's obviously legit.

j/c

I'm easily very critical of OBJ. He's an all-world talent but guys like him just bother me...to much 'look at me' in them...or that's how I take it. Anyway...

OBJ was hurt early in game 7...so he played in essentially our first 6 games. We played BALT, PITT and INDY in that stretch. We were crazy over-matched in 2 of our 3 "toughest" games...in the BALT opener, OBJ was targeted 10 times with 3 catches...vs INDY he had 5 catches on 9 targets...to my recollection, he dropped a lot of passes. Those three things will skew the %%% over a six-game span.

I think for Baker - and the entire offense - the light-bulb has come on slowly in the yet-again, new system. It appears that the flow on offense has improved noticeably these past 3 games...but I think (or want to think) that the improvement is more due to time-in-the-system than OBJ being out...or maybe even it's due to both Chubb and Teller being back...I dunno.

I think there is some merit to the claims that OBJ is a freelance route-runner at times...that's not a good thing in a yet-again, new system with a QB beginning his 3rd season...and I think Baker looked at OBJ too much because of Baker's own issues...the biggest issue being uncertainty.

In the end, I don't think we will ever again see the combo of OBJ+Landry playing on the Browns going forward. I don't see spending 30 million on two 5'10' 195LB WRS on a team with Chubb and Hunt. I think we will keep Landry and move on from OBJ - for better or worse. JMO