DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Comparisons 3

Pretty interesting about OBJ and BM performance. Loving Landry! OBJ hasn't equalled the hype for my expectations. Forcing the ball to OBJ explains some of BM's performance, but OBJ, now gone, can't explain or be used was an excuse for some horrible overthrows, missing some wide-open receivers, and some other shortfalls. His potato cannon (Derek Anderson!) delivery is not always manageable, and throwing full gallop misses when he could set and stroke a catch just leave me frustrated. BM looks like he has about half a light bulb at this point, but I will admit better output lately in the last few games.

Isn't this the same as saying Before and After the Bye?

Also, the post-OBJ includes the 22-straight at Cinci as well as all of the weather games where nobody was taking chances. It isn't exactly an apples-to-apples comparison.

I wonder what the comparison would be if you take out the 1st game of the season? Damn ... I am smarter than that, I can tell you.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/3052587/baker-mayfield

Actually I think this is a total BS story. Whether you look at QBR or his RTG - the real anomaly is the Pittsburg game. Using ESPN QBR he got a woeful 8 and that really skews the numbers. Looking at the other games there really isn't that much of a stark contrast.

Liars, Damn liars and statisticians.

This my friend is a very good post.

Nothing more to add except I’m pretty confident that Baker will be our franchise QB. What do you say... Don’t fix what ain’t broken.

I'd argue that Baker has less of a problem inside the 20 than outside of the 20.

Inside the 20, it, is, not against the rules to put 4 TE's on the field, spread out 4 wide.
Carlson,
Bryant,
Njoku,
Hooper,

I'm just sitting here thinking, how well Baker made Derrick Willies in a short time frame a couple years ago, and I think
How many passes did Baker throw over Derrick Willies' head, he's allegedly 6'5,
and I'm thinking, why can't he crack this roster lineup?

somebody take another look!

Why, because I want to see the Best Browns' on the field for the game.

That was a great breakdown. On the missed throw, you can see that he simply just rushed it after the pump because Tretter's guy was about to come free across his face. The view from the endzone showed it really well.

This play shows how our OLine pass blocking in standard drops seems kinda lacking. When we're moving the line, pulling, or running play-action, we hold up really, really well. When we do a standard drop, it seems like we just get blown up quickly.

Here is a thought.

One thing would help Baker a lot. That thing is an improved defense. A better defense means more time for the offense on the field and less pressure on Baker and the entire offense.

Nobody will argue you that our D needs to improve almost across the board (in terms of roster). But it's not to help Baker. Baker already is getting more than enough help/support. Baker needs to do more to help himself.

Really nice break down ... feet on the missed TD jump out at you, as well as the guy coming across on the initial pump/pull back. Some really good throws in there.

Not disagreeing with you here...but...much lesser-skilled QBs (read Lamar Jackson, Andy Dalton during the Bengals run, Trent Dilfer, David Woodley, etc ) have benefited greatly from a stout defense that gets/got the ball back frequently and oftentimes in excellent filed position.

IMO, what Baker needs more than anything is more time...and that comes when it comes. He's shown plenty of growth recently and has also shown that he's not a finished product either.

I would add what we see when BM does a bootleg rollout after a play fake, when it is against the flow. He is popping really clean usually, and he has room to run though he seldom does.
He is usually cleaner in this mode than drop back as you point out. This is something we should use and show more IMO. Some good things happening right up until he throws. We have, unfortunately, upside. Not triple-threat if you fail to use three.

True, not specifically to help Baker but the end result would help Baker, imo. Personally, I am not a big Baker fan. He has done well this year within the system. The bad losses really were not on him alone. Do I think he can be Russell Wilson or Drew Brees? No, I don’t. That being said there are plenty of teams with QB issues or overall mediocre performance that stick with their QB. So Baker needs this year and next year to see where he shakes out. Improving the defense will help as will maintaining continuity with the system. If after all of that Baker shows himself moving upward to the next level then great. If not, then drafting a QB would be in order.

This is a nice concept but backwards. The Concept, can be seen like the threat of Odell Beckham Jr allows the running game to become #1` in the league because teams keep a safety deep,
The offense can help a defense if the offense is good.
but not the other way around

We have years of data on this, all the years of Charlie Fryes' or Brady Quinn, or other terrible quarterbacks.

You can give the ball back to the offense 7 times in a quarter and if 5 of those are 3 and out, 1 is a Qb fumble for a Td and 1 is an int. it doesn't matter how good the defense.

Best thing to help the Defense, and the running game is a Prolific passing attack that can stretch the field on a nanoseconds notice.

We have years of data on these where teams with zilch on Defense had large amounts of success with all star quarterbacks, years with Marino, Elway's teams,
Mahomes, Rogers, St,Louis' greatest show on turf,

If you have a prolific passing attack that can stretch the field from any angle, it can allow for almost nothing but smoke and mirrors on defense to achieve great defensive statistics

The most powerful force in the NFL game is the super precision passing attack, because even the best defense on earth is a microscopic step behind, each time and it's repeatable.

The 2nd most powerful force in the NFL game is the unblockable blitz, because it beats even the best pass protection, think the 85 bears, lawrenc taylor, or the Carolina players on steroids.

Of course I figured those rules before a love tap on the Qb's helmut became a flag for roughing and automatic first down.

Bakers completion percentage would go up if they tailored more of the offense to his tight ends, and ( I'd like to see them bring up Derrick Willies off the practice squad) (maybe get him a tutor to learn the playbook, I can think of no other reason he's not cracked the lineup)

Willies is 6'5, simple science he'd catch high thrown passes. I do know Baker made him look good last time I saw them on the field together.

What player has zero issues or bad habits that creep back in from time to time? There are always going to be things that need fixed.

Perhaps if he could spend JUST ONE offseason where he doesn't have to spend all of his time learning a new offense, he will have more time to refine those fixes..

I agree with you completely. I also think Baker is being critical of himself. No excuses coming from him.

And their defenses did what needed to be done. Marino, great as he was, won nothing. How long did it take for Elway to win? You need support from all aspects. If the defense isn’t great then it must be opportunistic. Would you consider Flacco a great QB? Defense helps the offense by getting the opposing offense off the field with few or no points. The offense helps the defense by eating the clock and putting up as many points as possible. To say that either can be ignored or downplayed is incorrect.

If Sunday’s game exposes the defense then our offense will be lions trained by time. If the defense rises to the occasion then the offense will have time to operate. The teams with great offenses also have defenses that can do the job especially when required. I don’t expect the defense to be successful every time but I do expect them to succeed under pressure. If they can’t then the entire team is screwed.

Jc

This might be a bit of a stretch, but was watching some of the highlight so far this season, as well as going off memory from the games so far, and honestly I think this is a comparable season and strategy to how the cowboys managed Dak Prescott’s rookie season.

Look, I’ve made it clear how i felt about baker and the game manager label for a #1 overall pick.

And the same time, it doesn’t matter what slot you’re drafted in, a QB still has to be put in the best position to win/manage the game. And a strong run game has always been a young QBs best friend.

I feel like the run game is really allowing baker to learn how to be an effective QB. He know longer has to feel like he shoulders the entire team. Is that not gonna help him learn to read defenses better? Is that not gonna help him make pre snap reads and really gain chemistry with his receivers?

I guess I always had the mentality that your top 10 QB on the draft should be able to win despite the coach, or atleast show enough to not be worried about his future, like deshawn Watson or joe burrow.

But now that we have Kevin stefanski, who I’m completely on the bandwagon for, it’s made it abundantly clear that Hue Jackson, Haley, and kitchens were really THAT bad.

I understand that Dak and Bake are different QBs, but I’m comparing the way they were brought along. Dak having a strong run game and OL his rookie season allowed him to really accelerate his growth as a QB.

And I think it’s gonna be the same for baker mayfield. I think we finally got a HC/FO that isn’t gonna break our QB. Or atleast they got here JUST in time.

I mean....guys those games In November were some of the best leadership I’ve seen from a browns QB. That raiders game was on his receivers failing him. But those 3 games in crap weather, bake really stepped up, kept drives alive, and led us to victories.

Regardless how this season goes down, next season with a real TC in the same system....man we might actually get the baker mayfield we saw in Oklahoma.

And that should SCARE the AFC north.

In some ways this is a rookie season for Baker. It's the 3rd system in 3 years. Hard to learn anything when there's always change.

Why make excuses for Baker? He needs to be better, that's the bottomline.

(I hope he does get better.)

There is a Grand Canyon-sized difference between excuses and reasons/explanation.

Has a #1 overall QB EVER dealt with anything remotely resembling Baker's situation thus far in the NFL?

I think he is getting better...he needs to improve even more...the resilience he's shown has been remarkable.

Why not discuss reasons why his development might be slower than we'd like?

No - no QB has been through 4 HC in his first 3 seasons. That's fact.

I doubt any QB has joined a 1-31 team before. I doubt (subjective) any QB has ever had a worse mentor as Freddie Kitchens as HC.

As I mentioned somewhere - 7 weeks ago people were complaining that Baker was doomed to be a bust because he was a one read QB, he didn't go through progressions, he locked onto a primary receiver based on pre-snap read and didn't look away and that he scrambled needlessly from clean pockets when he didn't need to. He threw tons of interceptions.

Since then he has demonstrated he is going through progressions. He is looking off and moving safeties and DB's with his eyes. He is clearly trying to climb the pocket and not leave too early. He hasn't thrown a pick in multiple games (jinx - he'll probably give up multiple picks to Titans now I said that).

So he has shown improvement in ALL the categories he was being criticized for.

Since going 22-22 against Cinci - and really playing well in a game he needed to for us to get the win - Baker has played in 3 games of AWFUL weather and a game against a better than expected Jags ... he's missed some wide open TD throws and some open receivers -- whilst also making some brilliant and clutch throws in the same games.

So now the issue is consistency.

I'm more than happy with what I have seen from Baker in terms of attitude, off the field noise/distraction, improvement and ability on the field. Is he a finished product. NO. Does he need to continue to improve? YES. Do I believe he will? YES. Would it be moronic to cut ties with him after this year after all the ADDITIONAL challenges he has had to overcome in addition to the regular challenges ANY collegiate QB has to go through AND considering the verifiable improvements he has made? Without a doubt.

Focusing ONLY on where and why Baker needs to improve doesn't make a poster fair and balanced. Not acknowledging the additional challenges, not acknowledging the improvements ... It makes them something close to a hater - just how I see it.

Agreed. Good points all. I'll also add no young QB has come into a situation of negativity and futileness that Baker has had to deal with with our history since 1999. It's a lot to overcome.

I agree with some of this. I want to see what this offense looks like next year, after a real off season. Changing offenses has set him back, but he also shows signs that some of his mistakes, are clearly on him.

If they moved on from him, they would set back the team, IMO. No matter who the QB is, being able to consistently work on the same offense for multiple years, helps the QB develop also. I think he got the talent, but I think he plays with too much emotion. Like an over excited little kid. He needs to harness that a bit, and play more under control. I truly believe that is why he misses many easy throws. He gets antsy.

Nice post Tab.

IMO no one should have to defend Bakes play.

It has gotten better and needs to and is.

He is far from a finished product, for the reasons you state, and most of us get that. I also think he and we know he has to improve but that IMO is happening. Today will be a huge test for not just Bake but the entire team.

Don't forget DePo...!

Nothing I can say but exactly.

I get what your saying here. But will all continue to have times where there is doubt, that's what comes with being a fan. That said the past saw us go on years of doubt now it may only poke it's head around here and there. So yup the direction is up, and the ride is finally fun again.

As is nearly always the case Bone I agree with your takes.

Bone, for what it's worth, I agree with just about all of what you post on these forums. I truly believe Baker has not gotten a fair shot until this year with all the coaching and scheme changes. I have gotten frustrated with him when I see him miss wide open receivers but I don't scream for him to be replaced. We have to stick with him and hope he can further grow into this system. JMO