DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... COVID-19 vaccine #2

You and I may disagree, but I was honestly asking a question because I was trying to understand where you were coming from. I don't want you to think I was ever attacking you.

The one thing I think we disagree on empirically is the antibodies. There has been evidence of reinfection and personally - for what it's worth to you - I know of someone who had COVID and then tested negatively for antibodies about 4-6 months afterward.

Try this.....



It's 90% effective from you getting infected.

True... but for how long? Does it prevent you from getting infected, or does it simply minimize the symptoms/severity of infection? Can you still be a vector for the virus even after vaccination?

The best answer you're going to get on any of these questions is "the data we have right now indicates probably".

I think the line between blind rejection of fact and extremely risk-averse behavior is blurred. I think it's somewhat understandable to see hesitancy when there's so much uncertainty.

I do understand hesitancy though the history of vaccines has been very safe and eliminated diseases that has killed millions since just the 1950's.

So far the antibodies the vaccines has been giving have lasted as long as it's been available. And as you can read for yourself, the assertion made didn't include a timeline. It made a blanket statement which was false. You can make an attempt to dance around that with subtle nuances if you so wish. I simply took the statement made and gave evidence it was not correct.

There have actually been real world studies of this.



So this too does not apply.

I've never seen some people work so hard to try and dispel a vaccine that has caused the cases and deaths to plummet this drastically in such a short period of time. It's as though any sense of logic has totally escaped them.

Reminder: you're responding to someone that was able to get the vaccine early and did. There was also the video linked somewhere in this forum that Fauci's own group had ~%50 participation rate in getting the vaccine.

History of vaccines is largely (but not totally) irrelevant. These vaccines (with the exception of JnJ and AZ, ironically) are a new type of vaccine with a new development process.
I'm assuming that this assertion was overly generalized. As I laid out, it's not illogical. Nobody is dancing, so your misplaced ire is just that. I made a decision regarding my health and that of my family, but empathy allows me to see the opposite side of that decision (to a point). Many people are overly-hesitant to put things into their body, especially when it's brand new, and hasn't been fully reviewed by the appropriate regulatory body(s).

I have no ire. Just with this topic, a firm grasp of the obvious. All anyone has to do who has two brain cells connected is look at the number of cases and deaths since the vaccine came out to see how effective it is.

Everything else is just a smoke screen.

So explain to me why the FDA doesn't "grasp the obvious" and simply approve the vaccines? Certainly they have the two brain cells you're referring to?

I understand the ‘putting stuff in my body I don’t know about’ mentality on some level. If you were a vegan that ate only organic foods then argue away. If you’ve ever eaten a hot dog, or a McRib, I guarantee you’ve put more carcinogens into your body from that then what’s in the Moderna or Pfizer jabs. So I find the foundation of the argument solid but the general populace picking and choosing their ‘poisons’ somewhat hypocritical. Especially when this one can save lives…. while not clogging arteries.

I see. So now you ignore the dramatic decrease in infections and deaths by answering a question with a question.

The FDA is currently considering and will most likely give full approval any time now.

Yes, the "question" I put out there whenever you push the fervor over vaccine hesitancy. If it were as obvious as you like to claim, then the FDA would've been able to give full approval. Then Fauci's own department would have greater than 50% participation.

The information that establishes that these vaccines are, in fact, safe and effective hasn't been accumulated yet. The best they can do right now is "it's probably safe and better than not", which simply isn't good enough for some people. I put the word 'question' in quotes above because it's really not hard to figure out why some people want to wait.

I also asked you how anyone could explain the rapid decrease in cases, hospitalizations and deaths as more vaccines were given. So I would like you to answer that as well. So far, nothing.

We both know that enough vaccine doses have been given out for the FDA to approve it for full use. We also know it's simply a process of going over the data which takes time. It's an excuse used by those who simply do not understand the process involved to approve anything for full use.

The odd thing is, even you yourself know enough about it that you got the vaccine. It seems you know the silliness of the excuses being used. And now you're giving credence to them. Quite odd.

You left out 1 possibility. YOU yourself don't understand how it works.

Of course the dropping infection rate is tied to the vaccine rollout. Nobody is arguing you on that, so I'm not sure where you're pulling that from.

I don't know that enough vaccine doses have been given out to approve for full use (and neither do you). Data to be used as evidence for approval has to be collected under strict controls. Sticking someone with the vaccine and then not hearing from them again obviously doesn't qualify... but I think you already knew that.

But it turn it around (I'll say it again) don't you think that if the data was there, and that it's sooooooooo obvious, that the FDA would approve the vaccine? I mean, just today the FDA handed out approval for that new Alzheimer's treatment, which had SUPER sketchy data behind it.

So since I answered your (non)question (at the top), can you explain why is it that the FDA hasn't granted full approval? Can you explain why 12-15 year olds can only get the Pfizer vaccine (as of only a couple weeks ago)? Can you explain why no vaccine is available for people younger than 12?

I could go on... can you tell me how long this vaccine will last? If its effectiveness does degrade over time, how does that happen (does it start to degrade after day 1... is there a steep drop off after a certain amount of time)? What about long-term side effects? Are there health issues that should preclude people from getting the vaccine (serious side effects)?

These questions are rhetorical. The answer to all of them is "nobody knows because the data hasn't been collected".

People have their reasons, be they good or bad, to be 'scared' of new medical technology. This is a new type of vaccine firedrilled through the development and authorization process. At the end of the day, I made the decision to trust their conclusion of "we think it's safe enough and better than nothing", but I had to think about it long and hard. Because I was as on-the-fence as I was, I don't feel I can judge anyone who wants to wait and see a little longer.

I don't think you were attacking me at all and I do appreciate the attempt to better understand where I am coming from. Unfortunately responses from people like you've seen Pit make are more the status quo and based on getting people to adhere to an ever shifting narrative than it is about making a correct health decision.

And I do appreciate the info about the antibodies you gave. You didn't book end it with some sort of insult. I think you can understand that its hard to believe someone is genuinely looking out for you when they spend more time with insults.

I don't know, maybe you can explain why that is so prevalent. Is it simply that people are just that scared of it and are lashing out?

I understand what vaccine are for. I myself have gotten the standard vaccines. I even keep up on my Tetanus shot.

But the vaccines you listed off are/were diseases that could affect large swathes of the population as a whole almost regardless of risk factors. You are 30 years older than I. Our odds of contracting small pox is much closer to each other than our individual odds of contracting COVID.

Because the FDA requires a longer period of time to review before full approval.

What is the difference between 'emergency-use authorization' and full FDA approval for COVID-19 vaccines?

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/health...c7-8dce70cfba67

I thought you had some grasp of the process and why it takes so long. I guess you didn't.

I think/hope you're responding to the wrong person again. That, or your "have to have the last word" shtick deliberately obtuse.

Your article tracks pretty much exactly with what I've been saying. Nobody can require someone to get the vaccine until at least after it's been fully approved. The longer monitoring periods used to support approval is required for several reasons (article cited long-term adverse effects and duration of protection).

And for pete's sake... the article even states that full approval could help in overcoming hesitancy towards the vaccine. This has been my main point (that I've been repeating ad nauseum) this whole time. Also, go and look at the last paragraph of your own article. People are hesitant due to uncertainty (directly related to lack of data) related to the vaccines.

One thing I found interesting that's mentioned (but not explained) is how the manufacturers can use the total amount of people vaccinated in order to support their submissions. I wasn't sure how this worked (or was even possible), but it appears it is. I'm going to try to read up on this, because generally this isn't something that flies in the medical device realm.


That's all I got. I have no more to add to the discussion, and you posting that article kinda indicates there's no more to be added.

It actually explains why it hasn't been approved yet isn't a question of safety, it's the length of the process. Europe has a much shorter process which is why it's already approved there. There have been a total of 303 million vaccinations given in the U.S. 140 million have been fully vaccinated.

All it takes is common sense to see that the Covid vaccine is one of the safest things available as it pertains to medicines and vaccines. Yes, some people will ignore overwhelming evidence of its safety. That doesn't in any way create a situation where that makes sense.

People think the election was stolen and that doesn't make any sense either. You are trying to point out why people are hesitant. I've shown how being hesitant doesn't make any sense.

15yo daughter got her 2nd pfizer shot today, no symptoms so far.

None of the vaccines are completely safe and were not made according to normal procedures for FDA approval. It was rushed through and they have left several things to risk. Of the vaccines though Moderna is the safest one to take but is usually the most painful. Pfizer is the one with the highest risk.

Why? The vaccine in Moderna wanders less in your body and tends to stay put in the arm you get the shot in. The others break down more and disperse though your body more which is NOT what you want in a vaccine. This is why your arm tends to hurt more with the Moderna vaccination because the vaccine stays where it is supposed to. When the vaccine disperses more it raises the chances of complications especially for women since it can cause problems with their ovaries and cause complications with pregnancies. If your pregnant you should wait until after birth to get vaccinated.

No vaccines makes you immune completely but it does greatly reduce your chances of contracting the disease and it usually makes the symptoms much easier to deal with. With Covid, there are strains out there that the vaccines does not protect you against like the UK strain that even effects kids. That doesn't mean the vaccine is not worthwhile to get. In fact, I highly recommend you get vaccinated with the Moderna vaccine.

You can't protect yourself from everything but it's foolish not to protect yourself from obvious dangers when you can. Be smart and do what you can to make you and your loved ones a little bit safer from something that can potentially kill you. In fact, make sure all your vaccinations are up to date if you have been neglecting them.

I hope all of you will live happy and healthy lives.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims? What variant does the vaccine not help protect you against? What evidence do you have that it's any less safe than any other vaccine? What evidence do you have that both the Moderna and Phizer vaccine do not equally disperse through your body?

Pfizer COVID vaccine protects against worrying coronavirus variants

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01222-5

Misinformation is the biggest obstacle to getting the public vaccinated.

I mean... literally nothing in this world is completely safe. Not sure what your point is. The vaccines that have been in circulation for decades aren't "completely safe".

The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are 'new' mRNA vaccines. They are developed, manufactured, stored, and distributed differently than traditional vaccines. There's nothing wrong with this. They were rushed out in order to meet the demand caused by a global pandemic. FDA has processes for this (EUA). EUA basically states that authorized vaccines are safe enough, and safer than the alternative (no vaccine). The bar is lowered for authorization during a medical emergency (such as pandemic) because there is no other viable alternative.

I'm not knowledgeable enough to speak on how the vaccine acts once it's injected into your body (but then again, neither are you). I highly doubt Moderna and Pfizer are wildly different from each other. I was also under the impression that Pfizer had the better results from safety-related testing that has been completed thus far.

I have not heard of any sort of definitive data on pregnant women getting the vaccine. The problem was lack of data, not any sort of complication. The only complication has been with the JnJ vaccine, which ironically is a traditional vaccine.

It's from the man who came up with the vaccine technology himself, Dr. Robert Malone, in an interview he did a month ago or so. I'm just passing along what he shared.

Don't take my word for it. Look him up and listen to what he talks about and make up your own mind. I always tell my students to question everything with an open mind and decide for yourself.

I didn't say not to get vaccinated unless your pregnant. In fact I encouraged it. Just saying to be aware of the risks. Due to the rushed nature of the covid vaccine the FDA was not as rigorous in it's testing as it normally is according to Dr. Malone. Again he is the inventor of this type of vaccine technology so I would take what he says as the most reliable source in my humble opinion. Take or leave it with no hard feelings.

Never claimed to be an expert. I am certainly not. Dr. Malone is though. I am just passing information along from him. I can't think of any reason he would lie about his own work and field of expertise.

Can you please give us a link to him saying all of the things you have claimed? We know it was rushed due to the pandemic. But with over 300 million vaccines given out it's quite obvious how safe in regards to percentages these vaccines are. And I'm speaking of both the Moderna and Phizer vaccine.

Looking it up by using his name isn't netting me any results.

https://www.reuters.com/article/factchec...c-idUSL2N2O01XP

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/20...ein-toxic-or-c/

Spent my morning in a facility that’s dealing with a COVID outbreak. So far 5 residents and 3 employees. Sadly it was brought in by an unvaccinated employee. One that wasn’t symptomatic until after they had already spread it into the community. Thankfully those that have since tested positive have all been either asymptomatic or mildly symptomatic. They were all vaccinated. Last year at this time this facility would be seeing deaths for those in their care. The vaccine works. It’s saving lives.

Is that what Razor is referring to? It kinda sounds the same.

It's some of the pseudoscience that Dr. Robert Malone is pushing.

Other than the ear now growing on my chest and a can opener magnetized to my face, I have had no side effects from the Pfizer vaccine.

With the price of metals being what they are I consider that a benefit of the vaccine, not a side effect. Not the ear growing on my chest so much.

I read an article earlier about a similar situation in I think a Florida business. 5 or 6 people got Covid, 2 have passed away already, a few are still in the hospital if I recall. The vaccinated person in that company is fine.

It goes without saying that if there was a problem like the one described in that video, it would've been found via the short term testing and/or the population that has already received the vaccine (ala JnJ). This guy is being touted as one of the primary inventors of mRNA vaccines. If that's the case, he should be someone that knows what he's talking about, right? Can you really confidently call someone talking about something that they found/invented pseudoscience? I have the feeling that something is missing here (dude really isn't the inventor, he was just cleaning the floors same place/time... or something silly like that).

Dr. Evil’s father once claimed he invented the question mark!

mRNA research dates back decades.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/16/us/katalin-kariko-covid-19-vaccine-scientist-trnd/index.html

https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-r...tional-research

I can find nothing that shows he was actually involved with the Covid vaccine.

not COVID, but mRNA vaccines, in general. I don't know what that looks like (whether it was just a 'patentable' idea or proof of concept or he developed the first mRNA vaccine molecule).

That part always cracks me up!!

So much misinformation out there, unfortunately people not getting vaccinated are dying.

I have officially moved into the “It’s their own damn fault camp”

Being a Darwin Award winner is not the way to call it a day in this world.

My blushing bride of 37+ years is gonna sign me up for Pfizer #3 booster/whatever shot.

Same Bat Time, Same Bat channel, round 3.

I had very little reaction from the first 2 Pfizer shots 2 hence......not that worried.

Anyone else "boostering up"?

Yep. Have to wait until mid-October for my six months to pass, but most definitely getting the booster.

Be afraid. Be very afraid.