DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Looking ahead to season roster . . . .

Can say this about Higgins though.
The number of times in nearly 50 years of watching football.
Where a player makes a play like that fumble in the playoff game the final game of the season, and that player is waived on final cuts of the ensuing season, in what feels like a statement from the owner;
is way greater than zero.

I don't see the Browns cutting Higgins. That doesn't mean they won't but I just don't see it.

For whatever reason he and Baker are well connected, and that really is the requirement for any WR on the Browns roster. We all know we can count on Higgins when the bullets are flying. You can take all the better raw talent there is in the world and stick it Baker and Higgins works really really well.

BTW Felton won't be the reason the Browns move on from Landry that will be money and Felton is unlikely to gain so much as a snap because Landry is gone. I think that roll will go DJJ and or Swartz. Keep your eyes on these 2 players and how they develop as this season goes on. DPJ is already pushing for playing time if Swartz does as well Landry and OBJ will likely be playing for someone else next year.

But Felton taking Landry's job NEVER.

This Davis over Higgins talk...
Is Davis a willing blocker? One of the things I like about Hollywood’s game. 3 wide sets are the the norm and if you can bring the slot in motion to help seal the edge or get to the 2nd level on a run play out of a pass formation when it looked like the strong side was something else initially; that’s a big deal to me.

I know Hodge is fast, but I don’t see him consistently chipping a linebacker or going toe to toe with a safety. DPJ has that big body who I would think could develop his blocking. This makes me think it’s not Higgins v Davis, but Hodge v DPJ, or Hodge v Davis, with Hodge on the outside looking in.

j/c

Davis over Higgins?
This is a bit premature.


Higgins is the #3/#4 WR. Davis won't displace Higgins. Davis will displace one of the other guys trying to make the roster.

Davis is listed as the 4th string WR behind OBJ, Higgins, and Schwartz.
I see it far more likely that he displaces the likes of KhaDarel Hodge or Ja'Marcus Bradley.

Davis, right now, is practice squad bound unless we can bait someone into trading for him.


Here's his history, for a little context:

July 31, 2021: Cleveland Browns signed WR Davion Davis.

August 4, 2020: Minnesota Vikings cut WR Davion Davis.

August 3, 2020: Minnesota Vikings waived WR Davion Davis.

January 13, 2020: Minnesota Vikings signed WR Davion Davis to a Reserve/Future contract.

January 12, 2020: Minnesota Vikings signed WR Davion Davis to a Reserve/Future contract.

November 14, 2019: Minnesota Vikings added WR Davion Davis to the practice squad.

November 13, 2019: Minnesota Vikings cut WR Davion Davis.

November 12, 2019: Minnesota Vikings waived WR Davion Davis.

October 24, 2019: Minnesota Vikings activated WR Davion Davis from the practice squad.

October 14, 2019: Minnesota Vikings cut WR Davion Davis.

October 12, 2019: Minnesota Vikings waived WR Davion Davis.

September 2, 2019: Minnesota Vikings added WR Davion Davis to the practice squad



He has played a total of 3 offensive snaps and 8 special teams snaps in two games, back in 2019.

Yes, he has made some plays for us against 3rd & 4th string players, but if he's going to make a roster, that's how he SHOULD look.

I agree with that as well.

The key is knowing when to keep a player when he is finally ready to shine, so past context may not mean all that much.

j/c

Higgins and Baker have a connection mostly due to the fact that Higgins is an excellent route-runner with excellent hands...and is not a smurf-type WR. He's exceptionally reliable.

They also appear to get along quite well off the field too. While not necessary for building an on-field connection, it sure can't hurt.

Last thing to consider. We will run a nickle and dime defense (pun city)...with (2) LBs most of the time. That means we will have a few lighter, faster LBs, several CBs and maybe (5) S's. Plenty of options to choose from on STs. Also, Higgins is a good-enough WR that we don't need him to play STs to garner playing time...meaning that he doesn't have to be a ST contributor to justify his spot on the 53.

JMO

With the drawback that he can't be used in an emergency. If you need to replace an injured WR from the practice squad, Davis would have to serve a 2 game suspension before he's available.

If it comes to that, then Higgins is the one I keep.

Never is really out there. All of us are replaceable. ALL. We aren't promised tomorrow - and playing on an NFL team- every player is one play away from never playing again. Possibly.
Our depth is lot better than in other decades, I'm glad. Hope coach keeps the powder dry for KC....GO Browns!!!

Re-posted for emphasis. Great point.

Though Higgins was instructed not to reach for the endzone on those types of plays for that reason, you make a great point. I think we've trained ourselves over the 'lean' years to read way too much into training camp darlings. Davis's handful of catches in training camp and preseason should never trump Higgins' body of work with the Browns. Makes no sense.

I don't think Davis would be in any way a factor of whether Higgins makes the roster or not. They aren't even in the same conversation as far as I'm concerned. That doesn't mean that WR's above Davis on the depth chart may not be a part of that conversation.

Maybe I and/or we are reading into the WR cuts too far re: Higgins.

Does anyone think Hodge might have a shot at starting the season above Higgins on the depth chart? Note: he did last year
-I would hope not. I think Higgins' body of work is far better than Hodge (or even DPJ, at this point).

How much will "position value" play into surprise cuts? Would we keep an extra Dlineman because the system calls for it over a WR that we really really like?

It would not be a shock to me to see Billings moved, given his performance so far. As a veteran, even after a year away, he should not be struggling so much. Jackson is obviously a starter. But Day has been better than Billings, and has a history with our DL coach, so that may factor in. If Day starts, that means Billings is then in consideration alongside 2 Berry draft picks…not a great place for a struggling vet to be on cutdown day.

I'll just add to what I think it was Peen touched on earlier.

Last year both Hodges and DPJ got game reps ahead of Higgins. Now fans can agree or disagree on whether that was appropriate or not but Stefnaski based that decision on factors he deemed made those decisions appropriate.

Now from that point forward everything is nothing more than a guess on my part but is founded on one simple factor I think we can all agree on. A lot of our cap is being spent on the WR position. Finding the replacements for Landry and OBJ is of paramount importance moving forward.

Now I'm not one who sees that in Hodges. But what I do see is versatility in Hodges. He mananges to fit into ST. Something that for some reason Higgins hasn't seemed to do.

Higgins will be entering his sixth NFL season. Two of those seasons he neared 600 yards in reception yardage and in the others nowhere close to that.

So how many seasons does it take before you can reasonably conclude that a WR has peaked? At what point does a coaching staff come to the realization that a WR isn't going to "replace Landry or OBJ" and give those reps to someone who may develop into a WR that can?

We have both DPJ going into his second season and Schwartz who was just drafted. There is a lot of room for both of them to grow and progress. It's just the beginning of both their careers.

Now on a personal level I think Higgins brings more than enough to the table as a WR to be on the 53 man roster. But what I am saying is that we have a lot of talent at the position. I can see a scenario in which this FO and coaching staff might see the wisdom of investing the roster spots and reps to younger talent in hopes they can develop into a player that can replace someone like Landry or OBJ moving forward rather than invest that in a WR they see as already have peaked they know will not replace either of those two.

It's going to be hard on a lot of us fans when the final cuts are made. Harder than any season before since our return because players we like and think should stay will be gone. I have no idea nor am I advocating Higgins be one of them. But I'm not going to deny the possibility exists. I believe if it actually came down to it, he could be traded rather than cut.

Edit to add. Of course Higgins body of work is better than DPJ's. Higgins has had five seasons to build that body of work. DPJ has had one.

Last year we had OBJ, Landry, Higgins,DPJ, Hodge, Natson. I think we had a couple others at times, if anything nothing changes this year, Only position i see Davis maybe taking is Natson, The only way that happens if they plan on using Felton as a returner or maybe DPJ again. I don't think its a Higgins vs Hodges thing at all

What exactly are you referring to?

Targets/Receptions
RH - 52/37
DPJ - 20/14
KH - 17/11

Games/started
RH - 13/6
DPJ - 12/2
KH - 9/0

#Browns
@j_owuu
was stellar in coverage at Notre Dame, allowing a career completion percentage of just 46%, 4.8 yards per target and -18.7 EPA (h/t SIS)

He and teammate, JJIII, could be pivotal against defending TEs in ‘21 (Browns allowed 4th-most TDs to the position in ‘20).

https://twitter.com/CodySuek/status/1430971277590900738

First couple weeks of the season, Hodge (specifically) was getting the most use between him, DPJ and Higgins. It wasn't until Hodge went down with an injury that Higgins started receiving meaningful snaps on Sundays.

Yesterday I was Upset!

Today I have a beter understanding of concluding how the process will go.

Relax! Trust the process.

This is the one thing, these Harvard dudes are actually good at.

You don't have the bengals or others' bad management waiting around to screw this up, you can keep almost everybody.

I did the math, it's not easy because I'm slow, and nobody likes math.
(I could explain it but it'll be lengthy) better to just relax.

I should have stated that differently. When injuries occurred, both DPJ and Hodges were given reps ahead of Higgins.

I am glad you posted this. I was having a similar thought and struggled with where to post it.

A lot of people talk about using JOK to corral Lamar and Mahomes. But I was thinking using him in coverage against Kelce and Andrews would have a bigger impact. Especially against the Ravens. Lamar can be contained by setting a strong edge. The guys we had last year were way too slow. I think Clowney can do that.

But taking Andrews out of the game would be huge.

OOBER and PIT,

Got it...I didn't remember how/when those snaps broke down. Still could have something to do with Higgins not fully rising from the depths he was put in 2019 until later in the year.

I certainly don't see big upside for Higgins, but is Hodge's better? And as far as finding ways to get open and having a good rapport with Baker, Higgins is already a poor man's Landry.

Bottom line, I would be shocked if our WR a week from now didn't include all 5 of OBJ, Landry, DPJ, Higgins, Hodge. I got into this Higgins discussion because it started out as Higgins vs. Davion Davis, which is full-on crazy cat lady talk.

We're dealing with a Browns team that had the #1 RB Nick Chubb actually run out of o bounds at the 2 yard line when he was broken away for a clear Touchdown just so the team could take a knee and run out the clock to ensure a win.

Wide Receivers: They can keep 9 if they want to.
How? and Where?

As long as they are willing to put 4 of those Wr's on IR after the initial 53, destined for return later in the season, they can keep 5 avail for kickoff game 1.
That's where^, Here is how.

As long as they are sure they can waive a Safety #4,#5, and #6, plus a linebacker or DE #5, and #6, and they will all clear waivers,

Then for the 24 hours of the initial roster, you don't have any safeties or linebacker + DE depth but you have 9 WR, but you don't have to play a game.

Then, after 24 hours you put 4 of your Wr's on IR designated for return and bring back players for Linebacker and Safety, and Defensive end depth.

Conclusion. Under current rules. If you need a WR, which you don't want to expose to the waiver wire, simply
Waive TE number 4, or Running backs #5, and #6, and if 24 hours later you still can find "some" running back #5, or TE #4 to bring back, you can place that WR. on Ir designated for return.

I mean they could keep 12, TWELVE, OL, with this math.

The Crazy thing, is, ... because of this, they can cut the roster to 23 instead of 25 per side and keep an open slot (just for that 24 hour period) to still poach players they like from other teams.

It even made sense if Davion Davis wasn't suspended and took a spot, the Browns would have one slot open to scour the wire for a player they like.
Then, after I did all the figuring, I remembered Davion Davis' suspension means he won't count against a roster spot for the first two season weeks, so...
The Browns would have 2 open spots to scour the waiver wire for the entire 24 hour period to bring in a player they like,
like a MotherLovin Healthy Cornerback for goodness sakes.


Of Course it's not that simple. Because it's predicated on who, and how much so, they are willing to expose whichever fringe players to the waiver wire with the hopes of bringing them back.

But the Point is. If only one thing to get, get this: the point is.
They don't have to risk Higgins to keep Higgins.
They can risk Janovich to keep Higgins.
Or.
any of a thousand vice versas. < that is the point.

Thanks for posting this because I did not think that sounded accurate. IT seemed to me Higgins was playing a fair amount and when OBJ went down, DPJ started getting in.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HiggRa00/fantasy/2020

Higgins started out the year playing little, then that ramped up quickly in week 5 (wasn't on the field at all weeks 3, 4). Something that caught my eye, though, were his ST snaps.

Coincidentally, Hodge seemed to be out there for ~50% of the offensive snaps until he missed a bunch of time (weeks 4-7).
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HodgKh00/fantasy/2020

Lastly, DPJ's snap counts don't start until week 4 and is sporadic until week 11 or 12.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PeopDo00/fantasy/2020

“full-on crazy cat lady talk”

This made me smile, dude. I’m going to use that in a conversation, where applicable!
That struck me as funny .

I don't think Higgins has any fear of being cut. In fact, I think both Higgins and Hodge make the team. Here's the way I see the roster playing out:

QB (2) - Baker, Keenum

WR (6) - OBJ, Landry, DPJ, Higgins, Schwartz, Hodge

RB (4) - Chubb, Hunt, Johnson, Felton

FB (1) - Janovich

OL (10) - Wills, Bitonio, Tretter, Teller, Conklin, Hubbard, Hudson, Dunn, Harris, Hance

TE (3) - Hooper, Njoku, Bryant

Offense total - 26

DL (9) - Garrett, Clowney, Jackson, Day, Takk, Elliott, Gustin, Togiai, Trade target/McDowell

Yes, I think Billings is a surprise cut. We make a trade for another DT or keep McDowell

LB (5) - Walker, Takitaki, Wilson, Smith JOK

Not sure what they are doing with Phillips, he hasn't been put on IR yet?

CB (6) - Ward, Newsome, Greedy, Hill, Green, M.J. Stewart

S (4) - Johnson, Harrison, Delpit, LeCounte

Defense total - 24

Special teams (3) - Gillan, McLaughlin, Hughlett

I think we keep more than 4 Safeties. We will play 3 at a time as a base. I can't see us keeping only 1 backup.

YTOWN,

I tend to agree. JOK could factor in, as he might be that 3rd safety at times. But there's almost no way, IMO, that we keep only 5 backers and 4 safeties in favor of a 9th Dlineman.

Relatedly, this is an interesting primer on practice squad rules as we think about who may be cut.

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/2021/8/2...gibility-salary

That’s pretty good. I thought a 4th TE was a forgone conclusion though I don’t know who. Also would not be surprised to see Billings go and keep McDowell. A risky move but I’d support it. Also think Takitaki is out in favor of another S.

I'm just trying to think about gameday rosters, and how that will look, and how we keep the most talent that we can. We definitely have more talent on offense than defense.


Based on my 53 man roster, I think on gameday (when you can only have 48), you leave off Johnson, Schwartz, 2 OL, and 1 DL.

Safety is interesting. I think JOK has to factor in. I just have a hard time believing Redwine is one of our top 53 talents this year. If he is on the 53, he's probably one of our gameday inactives unless someone else is hurt. Too many other guys I'd rather keep that have way more potential than him. Keep other safeties on the practice squad, but don't waste a spot on our 53-man roster.

If viewed as a group, I can see us keeping 10 or 11 DBs, total. Split that between S & CB however you want. Heck, I wouldn't be shocked to see us keep 6 of each, actually. In Dime, you've got 6 on the field at once, so you probably should have that many plus a backup for each, especially in this system where Woods wants to go Dime a LOT.

Very informative , thanks .. Lots to play with if your in The FO.

I agree about the flexibility PS now allows. I was totally out of date...didn't even know that we could keep 6 vets or that we could protect 4 players/week.

Given this flexibility, who do you see as potential guys we stash on there with a real possibility of needing at some point this year? I could see any (not all) of these guys getting past waivers, but also being valuable if called up:

Weaver, Jackson, Malveaux at DE
Wilson, McDowell at DT
Fields, Lee at LB
Moffat, Redwine, LeCounte at S

Stanton at FB
Kelly at RB
Davis, Natson at WR/KR\
Franks at TE
Gosset, Forbes, Senot at OL
Lauletta at QB