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On an individual basis I really don't care either way. But I do have trouble wrapping my mind around the fact that a lot of families struggling to make it have to pay nine and a half percent sales tax on their groceries trying to feed their families.


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Can see that and agree. Just pointing out that would save me money over what I currently deal with in Ohio.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Paying salaries is not 'investing'. Sending that employee to a training or something like that is investing.


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JMHO, education is just like everything else- it's a racket in lots of ways. College has been broadens to include almost everything. The hard sciences- mathematics, medical fields, etc...a degree in physical education, music education, basket weaving, anthropology, and really business administration- do you really need professors telling you how to run a business- unless they've run successful businesses themselves. Colleges collect money to provide degrees in general knowledge so people can feel good about themselves- I've got a degree.
Public education helps the brightest how to learn and the rest are pushed thru....many should be in trade schools much earlier but are just numbers pushed thru system, if they can't read or write, just push them thru. they get attendance certificates. They get out of high school with no/ little chance of being productive adults.
How many college students would stay in school if they were grilled orally about each course they took by their teachers like in the old, old days. And passed or failed according to what they really knew, not what they crammed for and forgot a week later. There is value in the old reading, writing, and arithmetic...how many "American adults" can't read a contract and don't understand interest and payments, and get hosed because of it.....tons. Peace.


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I just wanted to expand on something I said yesterday. I was a little short on time.

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Additionally, what’s to stop City A from just reducing their tax rate to 1.5% (or even 0%) across the board to keep (and/or attract new) corporations?


When I said....
Quote:
I guess what it all boils down to is how much BS voters are willing to put up with in lining the pockets of corporations while they pay all the bills.


You see, if all business taxes went down to those levels, it would mean one of two things. Either there would be a drastic raise in the tax rate and property taxes workers and homeowners pay or services would drastically be reduced. Police, fire departments and road work would be slashed. Citizens would not be happy.

But in a world where cities feel the need to bribe businesses to move there I guess anything is possible.


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I don't necessarily disagree with your premise. But what is the alternative? Let all the corporations leave and watch local unemployment rise, property values fall, and overall tax revenue (from corporate, personal income, and personal property) tank?

My point is that no matter what legislation is passed the underlying forces that lead to negotiating, scarcity and competition, will be present.

There will always be another city that would love to have the business.

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Place tariffs on all imports so they get no competitive advantage by moving jobs out of the country and make it more fair for other businesses currently in the U.S.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Place tariffs on all imports so they get no competitive advantage by moving jobs out of the country and make it more fair for other businesses currently in the U.S.


And watch as inflation runs wild.

Maybe your ideal is for everybody to fall under government care, mine isn't.

We can't just keep printing money. Well, we can until it is worthless around the globe. When and if or currency isn't viewed as the gold standard around the world, we will have big problems.

Tariffs have a place, but you can't simply start taxing all imports.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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And your alternative is to promote Americans work for wages below the poverty level. Try coming up with something better than that.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
And your alternative is to promote Americans work for wages below the poverty level. Try coming up with something better than that.


But you aren't thinking. Everybody in poverty is a foolish answer.

The difference between you and I is that you blame a persons failure on the system and I blame the failure on the person.

Sorry, it just doesn't work when everybody gets the same sized piece of pie.

I am not here to provide the answers, so don't expect me to do so, but I am here to point out the flaws in answers such as yours.

Just a question here. How many fail because of the "system" or how many fail because they weren't prepared to compete?

No doubt there is some of both. I just want to get a feel for where your head is on that....and anybody can reply.

Oh...I don't care to debate what failure is or means. It is a word I used. Not necessarily a reflection on any individual as a person any more than it can be used as a reflection on the system, so we don't need to go down that path.


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Any American who works 40 hours a week should make a living wage. Not get rich. Not have a huge savings account. Not be able to afford to buy a home. Not be able to afford a new car.

That's what the minimum wage was created to accomplish. If you're talking about "success" on a grander scale it's up to a person to invest in an education or learn a trade that pays far better than minimum wage. Minimum wage is a "starting point".

Quote:
In his 1933 address following the passage of the National Industrial Recovery Act, President Franklin D. Roosevelt noted that “no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

“By ‘business’ I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of decent living,” he stated.

“Without question,” explained FDR, “[the minimum wage] starts us toward a better standard of living and increases purchasing power to buy the products of farm and factory.”

https://www.thebillfold.com/2015/07/it-was-always-supposed-to-be-a-living-wage/

If the system isn't providing this be the minimum standard for wages in America, the system is failing.

If you wish to talk about our economy, we have a consumer driven economy. The more people that can make a living and have an income which allows them to feed the economy, the stronger our economy becomes. Your economy will not thrive unless and until more people have more purchasing power.

As of now it takes propping up business with zero percent loans, huge tax breaks and other subsidies that give the appearance of a strong economy. You can make anything appear good if you throw enough money at it.


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Any American who works 40 hours a week should make a living wage.

How many kids should my living wage allow me to support?


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I think you have come up with the perfect solution. Put up a road block to as to why people shouldn't make a living wage. In one thread you talk about how partisanship is a bad thing. In the next thread you use a standard partisan one liner.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I think you have come up with the perfect solution. Put up a road block to as to why people shouldn't make a living wage. In one thread you talk about how partisanship is a bad thing. In the next thread you use a standard partisan one liner.


It's not a roadblock, it's a valid question. Anytime someone brings up something you can't refute, you just accuse them of wanting people to live in poverty. Deplorable.

You keep saying people should earn a living wage. Well, that amount is different for everyone. Number of kids they have is one of those factors. That's the problem with liberals, you think there is a one size fits all solution to everything. There's not.

How do you define a single living wage for everyone when that amount will not work for everyone?


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No, it's the standard roadblock that's always used as an excuse why it can't be done. To an extent you're right about there's not a "one size fits all" in what a living wage should be according to family size. It's also true that the cost of living varies from location to location.

But the minimum wage is a starting point. It's not a one size fits all answer. It's not going to solve every problem. Since the 1930's that's what it has been. Do you think that the people making minimum wage in the 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's and so on all had the same cost of living no matter where they lived? Do you think they all had the same family size?

Of course not. Yet now suddenly it's some excuse why the minimum wage should have been frozen since 2009?

Any time you can't refute something you continue to support working people to live and work for below poverty wages. Deplorable.


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
No, it's the standard roadblock that's always used as an excuse why it can't be done. To an extent you're right about there's not a "one size fits all" in what a living wage should be according to family size. It's also true that the cost of living varies from location to location.

But the minimum wage is a starting point. It's not a one size fits all answer. It's not going to solve every problem. Since the 1930's that's what it has been. Do you think that the people making minimum wage in the 1940's, 50's, 60's, 70's and so on all had the same cost of living no matter where they lived? Do you think they all had the same family size?

Of course not. Yet now suddenly it's some excuse why the minimum wage should have been frozen since 2009?

Any time you can't refute something you continue to support working people to live and work for below poverty wages. Deplorable.


This has been covered ad nauseum many, many times. You just don't get it though.

McDonalds is not hiring at minimum wage. $11 an hour, here in n.w. Ohio.

Factories are starting people out at $12 to $20 an hour. They still can't fine employees. Well, those that show up anyway.

If you take a job at minimum wage, you have zero ability, zero desire to improve yourself, and zero skills. Heck, even running a cash register at a gas station pays $10.

Livable wage, at $10 or 11? No. But the people taking those jobs (which is few and far between) aren't looking for that.

If you want a livable wage, get a job that pays it. What's livable here is different than in NYC, obviously.

Heck, even part time production jobs, on Sat. and Sunday, are paying $20-25 an hour around here.

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I'm the one who doesn't get it? You yourself admit many of these jobs do not pay a living wage. I stated and have proven what minimum wage was designed to do that very thing from the beginning. And it was designed to include "all of business".

All you have done is come up with excuses as to why it shouldn't. And once again you use the term "around here" like it represents the entire nation. It certainly does not.


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so is anybody gonna actually post their individual dream list? or is this just another "thanks y'all" thread?


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I’m dreaming more and more of one day becoming an expat. Does that count?


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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I'm the one who doesn't get it? You yourself admit many of these jobs do not pay a living wage. I stated and have proven what minimum wage was designed to do that very thing from the beginning. And it was designed to include "all of business".
Incorrect. No part time job was meant to be a livable wage.
Quote:


All you have done is come up with excuses as to why it shouldn't. And once again you use the term "around here" like it represents the entire nation. It certainly does not.


Check out jobs. NO ONE is starting a full time job at minimum wage. And "around here" applies to the country, son.

But, as I stated, this topic has been covered so many times it's not worth having a discuss.........a lecture from you.

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If you work full time and do not make enough to live above the poverty line, the minimum wage isn't high enough. The minimum wage should meet that standard. Even making well above the minimum wage does not accomplish that at this time.

You keep harping about how few people actually make minimum wage. But that really isn't the point at all. The point is even that $11 and $12 dollar an hour job doesn't get you above the poverty line. You even admitted such in your own post.

Quote:
Livable wage, at $10 or 11? No.


Are you getting the point now?

Quote:
In his 1933 address following the passage of the National Industrial Recovery Act, President Franklin D. Roosevelt noted that “no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”

“By ‘business’ I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level — I mean the wages of decent living,” he stated.

https://www.thebillfold.com/2015/07/it-was-always-supposed-to-be-a-living-wage/


Facts are not a lecture except for people who wish to put a negative light on the facts.

"Son"? Now that's rich considering you're the one having so much trouble understanding such a simple concept.


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Okay Burger king.

Have it your way.

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Tell us all, oh guru of economics. What is the magical minimum wage you seek? Keep in mind, part times jobs are not, nor never WERE designed to be livable wage jobs.

And tell us, in what areas of the country, state by state, county by county, would be the minimum wage?

Then tell us why?

Also, tell us, oh economic guru, why every company out there is hiring, at WELL above min. wage for a full time job, with benefits, yet can't find employees.

Also, tell us about inflation.

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Ah, your personal attack against anyone who you disagrees with. And you wonder why we can never have a productive conversation. I should have known better than to try and engage in a debate with you. Once again, someone who can grasp a simple concept is not a guru.

You can tackle it in several ways. One way would be to take the standard and cost of living in each state or county and set the living wage accordingly in those areas. Just make a set of parameters that each location must use to determine that wage so it can't be manipulated by localities or politicians.

Now, without resorting to calling you names I have responded. Let's see if you can step up to that level of decency.

It's not my job to be your answer boy about everything you're not willing to look up and answer for yourself.


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Let's be clear. You're talking full time jobs, correct?

You want some 1000 to 3000 different minimum wage jobs?

Oh, you forgot, nobody makes minimum in a full time job.



If I remember correctly, you are retired, or on disability and retired, due to your back - if I have that incorrect, I apologize.

Let's talk inflation as well.

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First let's recap. Minimum wage was set up and supposed to be a living wage. I have provided the information and quote from FDR himself who came up with the legislation which establishes that. So what the actual stated minimum wage is currently has no impact on what the minimum wage is supposed to be. Stating people make well above the minimum wage doesn't change anything. And yes, I'm speaking about a wage that full time employment would put you making above the government poverty level.

Honestly I think you would object no matter how it's set up. If I suggested a minimum wage for the entire country you would object because the cost of living around the country is so different it is a bad idea. I've actually seen you do that. If I suggest it be set according to living standards of the communities themselves you say it's a bad idea because it's too confusing. There's always some excuse why people working full time jobs should not make a living wage.

So throw out your " nobody makes minimum wage in a full time job " and let's address the actual issue. "How many people are working full time that make wages below the poverty level". Because that's the actual topic here and the threshold which minimum wage was established to address.

And what my income is and how I make my money isn't of your concern. Let's just say I'm willing to pay a little more for the things I purchase so the people that supply me those things don't get paid below the poverty level while working full time. Apology accepted.

And you can talk inflation all you like. I understand that angle too. As I said, I'm willing to pay a little more so working people can earn a living.


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Who are these people, and where are these people, that are making minimum wage at a full time job?

Thanks in advance, as I can't find any.

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
What is the magical minimum wage you seek? Keep in mind, part times jobs are not, nor never WERE designed to be livable wage jobs.


$25 an hour with auto incremental increases tied to the inflation rate should do it. That is an actual living wage. And you are wrong about part time jobs, they were created by business to avoid paying mandatory benefits for full timers. Hell, Walmart got caught several years ago trying to put all their managers and long term full timers onto a 36(?) hour work week to dodge benefits.

That's no damn different than hiring "independent contractors" for a regular job instead of employees to avoid paying matching social security, workers comp, and benefits to real employees.

And honestly, I think businesses and employees should negotiate wages and cut these deals themselves. BUT since we spent the last 40+ years doing nothing but bolstering big business and the elite, while working people took all the hits from the elites' job killing sellout to China, India, and other (what used to be) third world economies. Now the well to do elites feel entitled to profits from treating workers like medieval surfs that must serve the nobles on their terms or die.

The fact is that if you take the median wage of the working poor from 40 years ago and increase it at the same rate of inflation/price increases, well it would be between $25-$28 dollars per hour.

This is how much the elites have diminished the buying power of the dollar and American middle class. They are erasing the middle class and blaming it on programs that help the poor and working class so they can take those away too.

But you go ahead and take the side of the elite in this one because if your side knows how to do one thing right, it is to vote against your own self interests.

However, I think you are smarter than that. I'm sure you care about your bottom line because you have a family to feed. So, please explain to me, how you working for less helps them? Or how inflation caused by putting more money in the hands of the middle and lower classes to spend with small businesses like yours will hurt you? Think of it as trickle up spending to counter all the trickle-down BS we were sold from Reagan until about 2016 when it was finally exposed for the self-serving elitist transfer of wealth agenda that it is?


Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
And tell us, in what areas of the country, state by state, county by county, would be the minimum wage?

Then tell us why?


The base of $25 and hour everywhere with those areas that have a higher cost of living able to adjust UP with State laws, but not DOWN. And consider this a leveling of the playing field or a reversal of the last 40+ years of austerity economics for the middle class and poor. Between a livable wage and tax reforms we can restore the middle class and reset the bottom to top wealth transfer that has been going on since the 80s. Of course, the elites will cry because they do not get 90% of the pie, but they will still be rich and hurt for nothing.

Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Also, tell us, oh economic guru, why every company out there is hiring, at WELL above min. wage for a full time job, with benefits, yet can't find employees.


The employee shortage is multifactor arch. Some decided to stay home and not re-enter the work force due to the ongoing covid pandemic, childcare expenses, holding out for better pay, or some other change in their lives that causes them to not want to work or prevents them from working.

I mean as of today 700,000 people are DEAD from covid. And who knows how many are suffering debilitating long term effects? Since covid was so politicized and changed the financial situations of most middle class and poor Americans, who knows what other issues are keeping people from running out to work for these companies struggling to find help. You do realize the labor shortage is GOOD for laborers and their families, right? When was the last time you saw un-negotiated pay increases being offered across the board because working people took a stand? Seriously, if you cannot get behind this, then you do not care about laborers. Did you celebrate Labor Day?


Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Also, tell us about inflation.


Well I'll answer this trap question for you...

There are basically two types of inflation being conflated in most of these conversations. The first is sudden inflation where prices skyrocket while wages and opportunities stagnate. The other is inflation triggered by and everybody doing well and pricing adjusting accordingly. The latter is what we are facing now, not so scary but never ideal.



This is how I would answer your questions, even though I'm no financial guru but just a guy on a fan board like you.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Let's be clear. You're talking full time jobs, correct?

You want some 1000 to 3000 different minimum wage jobs?

Oh, you forgot, nobody makes minimum in a full time job.



If I remember correctly, you are retired, or on disability and retired, due to your back - if I have that incorrect, I apologize.

Let's talk inflation as well.


Hey arch I'm calling BS on your statement that there are no minimum wage full time jobs. There are tons of jobs in offices, factories, retail, and menial labor jobs that start out at minimum wage with extremely low incremental raises... like a dime per hour per year... big whoops. Or at least, pre pandemic, this is how it was.

But now most of that has changed because people like me are fighting for people like you and I to have more in life; more wealth, more opportunities, and a better overall standard of living.

But please do stick by your guns and demand that nothing change and that we keep just making the elites richer until the rest of us eventually die off so they can have it all. And this isn't an argument or a shot at you, this is an effort to get you to think about what you are saying.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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I appreciate your response. Not 1 bit of it makes sense, though.

It wasn't but a few months ago you wanted $15 an hour, even for kids working at McDonalds (and before you go there, those are part time jobs)

You apparently have no economic background. Jack pay to $25 an hour and watch what happens to inflation. Just saying.

You and pit can pay that.

$25 an hour for new hires? Dang, that makes the 20 year employee worth about $50 an hour, not?

And people on social security? Screwed. But, oh well, right?

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Who are these people, and where are these people, that are making minimum wage at a full time job?

Thanks in advance, as I can't find any.


I know this was for the snark, but you will be hard pressed to find it today unless you look at the mom-and-pop outfits like yours struggling to remain competitive during this whole living wage transition. But when you later get to increase prices, pay living wages, and still profit more than you ever did before all of this, then you will be lucky you got drug through it.

We all know what we had before is on life support. Elitist greed, a failing medical system, disappearing middle class, financial insecurity, food insecurity, and forty years of Reverse Robin Hood Economics has all but destroyed the American way of life. And that was all before Trump and on BOTH Parties.

So, for people like Joe Manchin and Mitch McConnell who only want tear-free-for-the-elite band-aids, well life is about to change drastically. And working people should just enjoy the ride and vote PROGRESSIVE. Hope that helps. thumbsup


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What? Who said I was struggling? A year and half ago, when EVERYONE (that had a job) was struggling, yea.

Today? Uh.............just last week, maybe 2 weeks ago, priced myself against 2 national chains. 40% less. Me. I was 40% less.

Perhaps you should speak of what you THINK you know, as opposed to what you absolutely don't have a clue about?

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
I appreciate your response. Not 1 bit of it makes sense, though.

It wasn't but a few months ago you wanted $15 an hour, even for kids working at McDonalds (and before you go there, those are part time jobs)

You apparently have no economic background. Jack pay to $25 an hour and watch what happens to inflation. Just saying.

You and pit can pay that.

$25 an hour for new hires? Dang, that makes the 20 year employee worth about $50 an hour, not?

And people on social security? Screwed. But, oh well, right?


lol, hell arch, I'm not rich but I am self-made and middle class just like you. And you simply don't get to be my age, with my experience, and not understand the economy or how most of this works.

Yes, I called for the $15 dollar minimum a few months back BECAUSE THAT WAS ALL THAT WAS ON THE TABLE. It was already a compromise at $15, to recover the losses of 40 years of trickle down for the middle class, the actual adjusted minimum wage should be between $25-and $28 an hour. This means that somebody working for minimum wage in January 1980, would make the equivalent today at that rate. Is this idea too big for you to grasp or is it too far from everything you've been conditioned to believe is possible?


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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
What? Who said I was struggling? A year and half ago, when EVERYONE (that had a job) was struggling, yea.

Today? Uh.............just last week, maybe 2 weeks ago, priced myself against 2 national chains. 40% less. Me. I was 40% less.

Perhaps you should speak of what you THINK you know, as opposed to what you absolutely don't have a clue about?


Well actually I never said anything about you struggling because you are right I don't know. But I did say "unless you look at the mom-and-pop outfits like yours(,) struggling to remain competitive". The way I meant for it to read is in white, should have put in that comma in parenthesis before the word 'struggling'...

But to be honest arch, just from my personal business acumen, the mindset that makes you think undercutting a national competitor by 40% to snag some work isn't something I would brag about. I mean think about it this way, you just told me you left 40% on the table because you feel, think, or reasoned (not sure which if any) that bidding on the job meant you had to take less to overcome their reputation, service, guarantee, or whatever makes you feel your work/product is worth less than a national competitor... but what I see is a guy who just left 40% on the table without being asked to do so. In sales, that is called dropping your pants for a deal.

I don't say that out of meanness or spite. Let me explain, I used to do that too and was happy because I felt that I was getting all I needed to get for the work and earning a fair profit for the work involved. But at some point, I stopped thinking like a guy selling his labor hourly or by the job and started thinking in terms of what the market could/would bare/allow and maximizing profits...

That is why I sold water softeners with RO systems for 5K-6K on average, during 1-2 hour in home sales calls, when people didn't even know they wanted the equipment I sold before I or my sales team got there. Major companies (Lowes, Home Depot< etc.) sell the same equipment for DIYers as minor home improvements for anywhere from 4-5 hundred and up to about 2K. Or my other national competitors like Rainsoft, Kenetico, or Hague water treatment companies sold in about the same price range with various sales models. And other national competitors like Culligan sold for less than us, in the same niche.

Along the way I learned to build value in my propositions with a company story, building Trust, showing expertise, defining the problem, discovering the problem in their home, getting on their side as a hero, then saving the day by offering common sense solutions with affordable payments that are fully guaranteed EVEN IF I GO OUT OF BUSINESS.

Long story short, I went from a few thousand a month in profits to thousands daily (6 days a week), sold way more equipment, had many more employees, and definitely was not mistaken for a mom-and-pop operation... although we were very much still a small business.

And, umm, this all cost next to nothing to develop and put in place upfront. We paid for the improvements and growth as we grew. I just had to get an inside look at the national competitions business systems to build mine to compete.

Again, not bashing you, just pointing out that you are leaving money on the table. And if you ever want to implement a profit driven business system similar to the national guys, I'd be glad to help you BECAUSE I know exactly what I'm talking about.

I'm no expert on everything business, but lead generation, marketing, sales, contracting, business systems development in both real life and in code, most things web coding related, identifying and resolving system issues, tracking everything to the ridiculous (for the data to make decisions), and just general business related ANYTHING are all things I excel at when I roll up my sleeves and go to work.

I've told my story of how I lost that business during the 08 crash and the series of health issues that followed; but none of that diminished my acumen or thought processes required to understand "how it all works". So, yes, I don't have what I used to have, but I damn sure still know what I know.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 09/30/21 07:37 PM.

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Is the fact that no person wanting a full time job makes minimum wage completely out of your comprehension? I think so.

You, and pit, are talking two different conversations. You keep harping about minimum wage. Cool. NO ONE working or wanting to work a full time legit job is making minimum wage. None. Here, or there.

You two conflate minimum wage with ................eh, you 2 aren't even worth my time, or prps bandwidth.

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Originally Posted By: Swish
so is anybody gonna actually post their individual dream list? or is this just another "thanks y'all" thread?



1. Abolish life without a chance for parole. If we remove that chance, we remove any incentive to redeem. I am not saying a murderer should go free in 10 years or anything like that. Maybe set it at 35 years before being eligible.

2. I agree. Legalize brothels. State supervised. It will cut down on STD's and generate income.

3. Have truck (18 wheels) free hours on the major roads in cities. Say 6am to 8:30 am and similar at evening rush.

4. I could see raising speed limits to 75mph.

5. Maybe rather than add more laws, maybe we should take a serious look at clearing many off the books? That ought to add to our freedoms. Many Federal laws restrict states. I am not talking about important things like civil rights...take speed limits. That is under federal regulation. Many states had no speed limits set years ago. You could be going 90 and go by a trooper. If the roads were clear and mostly straight, the trooper wasn't going to bother you. If the road was crowded and you were weaving through traffic or riding someone's ass, you would get a reckless driving citation if not simply hauled off to the cooler.

I think the road signs on highways read "Speed Limit reasonable and proper".


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Originally Posted By: OldColdDawg
Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
What? Who said I was struggling? A year and half ago, when EVERYONE (that had a job) was struggling, yea.

Today? Uh.............just last week, maybe 2 weeks ago, priced myself against 2 national chains. 40% less. Me. I was 40% less.

Perhaps you should speak of what you THINK you know, as opposed to what you absolutely don't have a clue about?


Well actually I never said anything about you struggling because you are right I don't know. But I did say "unless you look at the mom-and-pop outfits like yours(,) struggling to remain competitive". The way I meant for it to read is in white, should have put in that comma in parenthesis before the word 'struggling'...

But to be honest arch, just from my personal business acumen, the mindset that makes you think undercutting a national competitor by 40% to snag some work isn't something I would brag about. I mean think about it this way, you just told me you left 40% on the table because you feel, think, or reasoned (not sure which if any) that bidding on the job meant you had to take less to overcome their reputation, service, guarantee, or whatever makes you feel your work/product is worth less than a national competitor... but what I see is a guy who just left 40% on the table without being asked to do so. In sales, that is called dropping your pants for a deal.

I don't say that out of meanness or spite. Let me explain, I used to do that too and was happy because I felt that I was getting all I needed to get for the work and earning a fair profit for the work involved. But at some point, I stopped thinking like a guy selling his labor hourly or by the job and started thinking in terms of what the market could/would bare/allow and maximizing profits...

That is why I sold water softeners with RO systems for 5K-6K on average, during 1-2 hour in home sales calls, when people didn't even know they wanted the equipment I sold before I or my sales team got there. Major companies (Lowes, Home Depot< etc.) sell the same equipment for DIYers as minor home improvements for anywhere from 4-5 hundred and up to about 2K. Or my other national competitors like Rainsoft, Kenetico, or Hague water treatment companies sold in about the same price range with various sales models. And other national competitors like Culligan sold for less than us, in the same niche.

Along the way I learned to build value in my propositions with a company story, building Trust, showing expertise, defining the problem, discovering the problem in their home, getting on their side as a hero, then saving the day by offering common sense solutions with affordable payments that are fully guaranteed EVEN IF I GO OUT OF BUSINESS. Long story short, I went from a few thousand a month in profits to thousands daily (6 days a week), sold way more equipment, had many more employees, and definitely was not mistaken for a mom-and-pop operation...

And, umm, this all cost next to nothing to develop and put in place upfront. We paid for the improvements and growth as we grew. I just had to get an inside look at the national competitions business systems to build mine to compete.

Again, not bashing you, just pointing out that you are leaving money on the table. And if you ever want to implement a profit driven business system similar to the national guys, I'd be glad to help you BECAUSE I know exactly what I'm talking about.


Oh, dear Lord: that is what you took from my post?????

Seriously>

I won't go any further other than .......nah, you're not worth it.

Sorry, had to edit this: YOUR personal business acumen?

You suggest raising prices - the guy that is anti capitalism? You want me to raise my prices so the poor cant afford me? Talking out of both sides of your mouth, I see. You want everyone to do with less, but higher wages, yet you care about the poor by mandating they get higher wages for doing..........what?

John, you speak out of both sides of your mouth. (John is my brother. Retired at age 56. Long story. Just got off the phone with him. He lives near .......

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Originally Posted By: archbolddawg
Is the fact that no person wanting a full time job makes minimum wage completely out of your comprehension? I think so.

You, and pit, are talking two different conversations. You keep harping about minimum wage. Cool. NO ONE working or wanting to work a full time legit job is making minimum wage. None. Here, or there.

You two conflate minimum wage with ................eh, you 2 aren't even worth my time, or prps bandwidth.


No, not at all on my part. I understand what you are trying to say, I just think your reasoning is flawed. None of this is really about minimum wage, it's about a living wage. I think you are wrong about no full-time jobs paying minimum wage, but for expedience's sake let's assume you are correct. Even today with the help wanted signs in every business window and the higher starting wages, raising the minimum wage is still very important! Over the last 40 years, employers have taken labor's share of the profits. Those great paying jobs from the good old days have all but disappeared. And all along the way, minimum wage has set the floor for what is legally acceptable as a low wage. This is to keep the new robber barons of old from dropping wages even further during the lean times.

But starting mostly in the 80s corps and corporate raiders started cutting all costs to the bone, forcing wages either down or to stagnate and not grow at a rate to keep up with inflation. This used to be a strategy for lean times but was exploited during boom times and made most corporations follow suit to both stay competitive and maximize value for shareholders.

So, when you factor in the sellout of America by it's CEOs, most people, including you, are probably working for less than what True Minimum wage should be. As a matter of fact, anyone making less than $25 an hour is working for less than minimum wage. But that requires critical thinking to see and comprehend, are you up to the task?

BTW - we can have convos with or without the snark, but we can't be nice to each other with the snark. I have all the sky is falling game day thread posters on ignore and would prefer we got along. We can debate and talk without all the shots. We both know no matter who starts it, the other will respond and escalate it... I'm not going to be banned for that during the season. Hope you feel the same.


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And when wages get stupid, jobs go over seas. Period.

Even your own job can be done by someone in taiwan.

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Originally Posted By: Swish
so is anybody gonna actually post their individual dream list? or is this just another "thanks y'all" thread?



LMAO, here's a list:

-Legal Drugs
-Legal prostitution
-Legal abortion
-true equal rights and equality
-a strong social safety net
-scarlet T's tattooed on the forehead of everyone that voted for Trump in 2020.
-relocating the political center back to true neutral political center instead of calling the moderate right or true right the center. The center has moved right since Nixon was removed. In any other major modern country in the free world, American Progressives would be considered moderate left.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 09/30/21 08:07 PM.

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