DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield Part IV A New Hope

https://twitter.com/BrandonWolfCLE/status/1447816392850485253

watch this video from Rich Eisen.

Lol..."What do you want? Charlie Frye?"

I see Baker had a 122.6 QB rating against LAC.

That's everything right there.
Rich Eisen just calls it like it is.

Part IV was actually part one.

Love that. Thank you for sharing..... irrational people!

I think every Browns fan should listen to that video...from a "talking head" with no horse in the race.

I was especially nodding my head when Eisen started talking about the weapons at the disposal of other QBs...while we trotted out there with OBJ (a shadow of his former self was a perfect description) and....not Landry...and scored 42 points.

42 points and his biggest pass-catching weapon was Njoku.

I watched the video and I agree 100%. I've been one of the ones that has defended Baker.

Those more critical of Baker have suggested OBJ is a shell of himself because Baker can't throw him the ball. I have seen posters claim OBJ is open on every single play. . . . So there's that.

Not only that, there must be a whole lot of people who pay for the 22 view because I sure can't see that watching TV. Heck, I go to all the home games and I don't see that. I do admit I watch the ball 95% of the time and don't focus on some lineman blocking or a receiver running his route.

At least for me, I am a fan, I am not trying to act like a scout scouting a player. I would rather watch Chubb running for a TD rather than see if some receiver is trying to make a block on the opposite side of the field...but that's just me. For others, if that floats their boat, have at it.

People often forget where we were before Baker arrived. I'm just happy to be the rider of a team that I'm not ashamed of. We can all hold our heads high when we talk about our team. People are all up in arms because he's not deep balling it all over the place with 4tds a game. Whatever! I'm glad we're winning games and looking like a legit SB contender. All of our issues are fixable and there's still plenty of time to fix those. We are in a good spot. I prefer that over 1-31.

I've heard that as well...and I don't doubt that there is/are All-22 views that show OBJ being open. Something is weird there.

Here's where I get really confused on the issue: Baker has shown throughout his career that he can and will spread the ball around to many targets. The numbers back that up.

So...is the problem that Baker isn't seeing OBJ? That seems unlikely because Baker spreads the ball around quite well.

It leads me to believe that Baker doesn't trust OBJ...no idea to what degree.

That, or by design or delay, how soon is OBJ getting open? I don't know at what point baker may look at OBJ, but if he isn't looking open when Baker looks his way, the play is over for OBJ.

It's not like baker can stand there for 6 seconds scanning the field. Add in new tackles, that has to make Baker speed up his "clock" a bit, needed or perceived.

Hey, I’m not going to go back and forth on this, but since people are asking about all 22 and how would you know OBJ is often open, here is what I’ve been watching during the week.

OBR Twitch channel - Jake Burns play breakdowns

I’m pretty sure he does every pass play, and whether you agree with his comments or not, at least you get to see what is happening with your own eyes.

https://www.sbnation.com/secret-base/217...goals-turnovers

This is a website I found that's somewhat relevant. They went way back and got probabilities of winning based on number of points scored. There's essentially 0 difference in win probability between 42 and 48-49.

Just another way of showing how the argument of "Baker didn't score the last touchdown so that's why we lost" is flawed. It only makes sense if you ignore everything before the last few drives.

That's a great resource. What it doesn't do is let us know whether OBJ got open at the right time based on play design... and one thing we know for sure, is if if BM locks onto OBJ waiting for him to break open and becomes keyed on OBJ, the D will react to that and the detractors will criticize him for it. Even with BM holding the ball longer than most - he has maybe 3 seconds to go through ALL his progressions and constantly move on to the next read when they aren't open. I think it's fair to say BM doesn't go through those progressions as quickly as some of the elite QB's yet (maybe he never will) ... so 'being open' on film doesn't truly tell the complete story either.

OBJ should catch the ball on a 4th down 2 yard pass that hits him right between the numbers.

j/c...

This is a reasonable article.

Ben Axelrod
@BenAxelrod
I don't know why we still argue so much about Baker Mayfield. We already know what he is and what he isn't.

MY COLUMN:

There's no debating it: Cleveland Browns' signal-caller Baker Mayfield is the most polarizing quarterback in the NFL.

CLEVELAND — Like most red-blooded Americans, watching NFL football on Sunday afternoon largely serves as a warmup for Monday morning sports debate shows. And in the Axelrod house, we don't miss Michael Irvin Mondays on "First Take."

But as I watched Stephen A. Smith continue his ongoing battle against the world by facing one of the greatest receivers in NFL history this week, I found myself confused by the direction of their debate.

"Can the Browns win with Baker Mayfield?" the chyron on the screen read.

How could this be?

Sure, Cleveland had just lost to the Los Angeles Chargers in heartbreaking fashion hours earlier. But the Browns' 47-42 Week 5 defeat was also arguably the best game of Mayfield's NFL career. Not only that, but Cleveland has already won with Mayfield at quarterback, as evidenced by last year's 11-5 regular-season record and postseason win vs. the Pittsburgh Steelers on the road.

Irvin backed Baker. Meanwhile, Smith -- the greatest sports debater of our time -- claimed, "you ain't winning no title with no Baker Mayfield. There [are] too many roadblocks."

Monday: it grew. While some tweets wrote the "First Take" segment off as frivolous fodder, others gave it credence, siding with Smith's opinion that Mayfield isn't a Super Bowl-caliber quarterback.

In fact, the noise grew so loud that both Mayfield and his wife, Emily, responded to it with posts on their Instagram stories. Several Browns fans also rushed to the No. 1 pick of the 2018 NFL Draft's defense -- perhaps in a way that was outsized to the actual criticism.

As for that criticism that Mayfield finds himself facing, it seems flimsy at best.

"He doesn't know how to win," has become a common sentiment. I suppose that means he just "guessed" his way to 12 wins last season.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are valid complaints to make about Cleveland's quarterback; his accuracy has been inconsistent, he's been too conservative with his approach and his chemistry with Odell Beckham Jr. remains nonexistent two-and-a-half years into their partnership.

There's no mistaking what Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herbert -- the two quarterbacks who have beaten the Browns this season -- are capable of compared to what Mayfield has shown through the first four seasons of his career.

But the part that I think confuses me the most about criticism of Mayfield this week is that nothing he did (or didn't do) vs. the Chargers changed my opinion of what he is as a starting quarterback. He's not one of the NFL's 10 best quarterbacks -- that would be tough to argue. Rather, he's somewhere between 12-20 -- a range of rankings that seems to fluctuate on a weekly basis (think Matthew Stafford, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins and Matt Ryan).

Sure, at his best, Mayfield looks like a top-five quarterback, capable of going toe-to-toe with the best quarterbacks in the NFL -- as he did vs. Mahomes and Herbert this season. But at his worst, he looks like a fringe starter and a reminder of why Cleveland gave Case Keenum a three-year, $18 million contract to be his backup before the 2020 campaign.

Like most quarterbacks, the truth is that Mayfield lives somewhere between his two extremes. Factor in his pull-no-punches personality and it shouldn't come as a surprise that he's still the league's most polarizing quarterback at this point in his career.

Dating back to his storied college career at Oklahoma, Mayfield has been a lightning rod and the 2017 Heisman Trophy winner has done nothing since then to shed that label. For some, his best will never be good enough, while others will defend him even after performances in games where he admitted he played poorly.

As for my personal opinion on Mayfield, I think you can absolutely win a Super Bowl with him as your starting quarterback -- so long as you have the right team and coaching staff around him. The good news for Cleveland is the Browns have just that, although I think it's also fair to wonder how long that will be the case for as their salary cap fills up.

While some see Cleveland's losses to Kansas City and Los Angeles as proof the Browns can't beat those teams, Mayfield's performances in those games only strengthened my belief they could be Super Bowl bound this season.

Don't agree? I'd tell you to debate me.

But at this point when it comes to discussing Mayfield, an invitation to argue seems redundant.

https://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status/1448379962076053507
https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...51-26d9c1a01fe6

" Smith -- the greatest sports debater of our time "

after this highly dubious statement I skimmed through the rest. Meh.

Sarcasm is lost on some people.

Baker needs to win in the 4th quarter against good teams when it matters.

all the stats in the world isn't gonna change that. being clutch when its time to be clutch. and in THIS Season, he hasnt been clutch when it matters. he had the chance to beat the chiefs. he couldnt make the throws. he had a chance to beat the chargers, didnt make the throws.

ive been on record saying he's our guy, but some of y'all need to stop acting like he's above criticism. he's in his 4th season, 2nd under the same system.

why is his mechanics and footwork still an issue? why does he seem to panic when the pressure is on? why is he missing open guys, or not even seeing them open?

everyone trying to put in on OBJ as if baker hasn't been hitting his other receivers as well?

he was drafted #1 overall, and is the 3rd best QB in his class, and the third best QB in our division.

at the end of the day, he has to be able to lead us to a W against good teams, especially in the playoffs. an elite QB does that despite everything else breaking down around him.

he has all season to prove that to the FO. plenty of time to get it going. he has the best rushing attack in the league, the best O line in the league, a good HC/OC, and a great receiving group.

let me be clear: i ABSOLUTELY believe he can do it. but baker needs to be clutch in the 4th. he has to be able to put a team on his back, because there WILL be a time where a team stops our rushing attack, or at least tames it. and Baker is gonna have to throw us to a W.

he's the guy. i dont want anybody else. but he isn't a rookie, and he's not on a bad team. This season, we're gonna find out if he's the Franchise, or Jared Goff.

Spot on.

Thanks.

"great receiving group" - Sure, sure. LOL

I posted this on another topic. I Love Eisen! He called it as it is... Baker is for Real.
Real fans know Baker didn't lose this game or the Chiefs game.

I relate your last statement to basketball. You're at the free throw line, down 1, a second left. You miss. Game over. Everyone wants to blame you, while ignoring the free throws your team mates missed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th quarter.

or he threw a perfect alley-oop and the teammates were tripped up so the ball ended up going out of bounds.

you mean like the 4th down play that hit OBJ in the numbers. But let's not mention that.. thanks for the comment

https://twitter.com/JordanZirm/status/1448427230074343425

Baker mentioned how physical OBJ has been in the run game and boy he wasn't wrong

brutality.

I just wish we were one of those teams people know are probably going to win if they get the ball with 1-2 minutes left. As it is now, it's pretty much a given that we aren't.

Now if we could get him to catch the ball in the clutch we would have a solid receiver too.

I really don't disagree with you. But there's also more to it than just Mayfield. I think the playcalling could've been a bit more clutch as well.

I don't disagree with most of what you said.

But let's not confuse posters supporting Baker when some folks only ever want to find fault in everything Baker does and when posters show a constant and pre-medicated determination on Baker's ceiling .... and fan's suggesting Baker is beyond criticism and doesn't need to improve. I don't know anyone that doesn't think Baker deserves criticism and needs to improve. When he has a stinker like he did vs the Vikings posters who support BM are honest. No-one thinks he is above criticism like you implied.

I know I have highlighted Baker's areas of deficiency in the past as have every other Baker 'fan' I know on the board. No-one says he is perfect. What gets heated and might appear skewed sometimes is when posters respond to the overly critical opinions that spam the boards.

Someone else has mentioned the 7 comebacks Baker has lead - as many or more than all the other QB's in his class if I remember. Someone mentioned how he lead the team back against Baltimore last year scoring 22 4thQ points - and then having the Defense let Baltimore score with 1:04 seconds left in the game. So he has done it - probably more often than fans remember. . . . he's certainly NOT done in a few games and fans remember those occasions. Everyone agrees he needs to do it more.

Let's be clear, the Browns are a very good team - they are NOT a Championship caliber team. Baker Mayfield is a good QB playing within a scheme that is not playing to his strengths or skill set and he is far from a great QB at this stage of his career.

The defense is a work in progress and no where near the type of defense the team needs to be considered Championship caliber. That's another topic to be discussed elsewhere. The Browns offense however has the pieces in place to be a Championship caliber offense. The biggest drawbacks are two - first, the Browns have not shown the ability to close out games. Even the games they have won this year has shown clear instances of the lack of ability to close out the game. It is so noticeable that if the Browns have the ball with 3-4 minutes to go you absolutely know that the opponent is going to get another chance with the rock. The NFL is balanced enough that as a team you either have this ability or you risk games on a weekly basis.

Second, and even more disturbing, is the total lack of a 2-minute offense. Though I believe it is great that the Browns currently have the #1 rush offense in the NFL, being 25th in passing at a very low 230.0 yard average per game is not going to cut it for a Championship caliber team in a passing league. The Browns current scheme is not set up for a 2-minute drill and they are currently unable to perform at that level because they have changed the mindset of Mayfield from a gunslinger into game control QB.

Now I believe that Baker needed to be scaled back because early in his career the risk was way higher than the rewards. Unfortunately, though the Browns now have a QB with a high completion record and a very decent QB rating. They don't have a QB with the skill set to move the team quickly done the field. I have not seen the Browns exhibit the ability to move the team 60-70 yards in less than a minute to get that final score and not even considered a team that would ever take the advantage of a 2 for 1 opportunity at the end of the half and then getting the ball and scoring at the start of the second half.

Each of these situations presented themselves in one way or another in the two losses that the Browns have suffered this year and can even be attached to our loss to KCC in the layoffs. If you take an unbiased look at the so called Super Bowl contenders for just this year, you would be hard pressed to identify a single team outside of the Browns and Titans that does not have the ability to run a feared 2-minute drill. Dallas, GBP, TBB, ARI, LAR, BUF, KCC, LAC, PIT, and after Monday even BAL all have QB's that teams fear when they get the ball with less than 2 minutes to go in the half or game. If you take a look at BAL with Jackson for example, they built their team around his skill and talents and they have been running wild there for 3-years running. The issue with the Ravens was they couldn't pass especially in the late moments of games when they needed too. This fault reared it's ugly head in the playoffs multiple times. The Ravens just spent an entire off season attempting to correct that issue. The result of those efforts now have the Ravens after 5 weeks with the 4th best rushing team (still can run even with the loss of 3 separate starting RB's) but their pass offense is currently 6th in the NFL after 5 weeks. Now I don't know how this will all play out for the Ravens but I do know that in 3 of their wins they had to come from behind to win and two of those wins came on the last drive of the game.

For those of you that get sensitive when it's said that the Browns took the "gunslinger" out of Mayfield, the stats don't lie. At Oklahoma, Baker threw for 12,292 yards for 69.8 completion pct and 109 TDs. That was 307.3 yards per game played with 2.7 TD's per game. Since he's been with the Browns: 2018 = 286.5 yds per game & 2.08 TDs, 2019 = 239.2 yds per game & 1.38 TDs, 2020 = 222.7 yds per game & 1.63 TDs, and 2021 = 230.0 yds per game & .80 TD's. In 2021, Baker is down 19.7% in yards compared to 2018 and 61.5% in TD's thrown per game. Compared to Oklahoma, Baker is down 25.2% in yards and 70.4% in TD passes per game in 2021. The Browns drafted a "Gunslinger" at #1 and have turned him into a game manager for a team that has not shown the ability to close out games with a nonexistent 2-minute offense.

If the Browns are ever going to be a serious Championship caliber team (for more than a 1 season fluke), they absolutely have to fix these obvious deficiencies. Otherwise, the Browns will just be a good team without a franchise QB that can carry the team when needed.

Another good post.

To me, the shine has come off of Stefanski's offense a bit. We need to be both explosive in the run and pass game. I get that we have two great backs, but if they don't get Baker going there will be too many games like the Chiefs and Chargers this year. The team has to be able to close, specifically the coach and QB. Both Stefanski and Baker have taken a step back this year, IMO. It's demoralizing to me when I hear AVP talk about having to get our 4th year QB some easy throws to get him comfortable. I think you would be hard pressed to find that kind of language from teams that have elite QBs. And it's demoralizing to me to hear our 4th year 1st overall pick tell the media we know our identity is to run the ball. This is a former Heisman trophy winning QB who won that award by throwing the ball all over the field.

I would like to see Stefanski open it up against the Cardinals. Run some hurry up. For Baker, two things I've kind of noticed. He seems to expect pressure when backups are in even if there is no pressure there. And once a wide receiver messes up, he won't even look at them. He needs to stop both of those practices and just play the game.

This is a huge game upcoming. Beat the Cardinals, and you are 4-2 with all these warts through 6 games. Lose and the season is not over by any stretch, but you'll have a ton of work to do to build back up that momentum.

Free Baker. And if he throws an interception or two, so be it. Free Baker. A dominant running game has not beaten the two best teams we've played so far this year. Free Baker.

Since #FreeToddMonken has been retired....

#FreeBaker

j/c

Every team in the league with the "comeback quick strike" ability has an elite talent at TE and/or WR. Someone who gets wide open with regularity.

We do not have a dynamic talent at the pass-catching positions...we just don't.

wut?

I don't totally disagree with your post. My argument is that don't most "great" teams have to go through the "good" and "very good" stages before they get to the point where they're considered great or 'championship-caliber'?

In order for fans to have that feeling that, "they'll get that TD... they got this" they have to do it a few times first. I think the team, overall, is getting there. It's Stefanski's second year. The teams with the talent to do something about his offense now have more than enough film to work against our offense. Seeing brief setbacks (especially small ones) with our offense isn't worriesome to me.