https://twitter.com/BrandonWolfCLE/status/1447816392850485253

watch this video from Rich Eisen.

Lol..."What do you want? Charlie Frye?"

I see Baker had a 122.6 QB rating against LAC.

That's everything right there.
Rich Eisen just calls it like it is.

Part IV was actually part one.

Love that. Thank you for sharing..... irrational people!

I think every Browns fan should listen to that video...from a "talking head" with no horse in the race.

I was especially nodding my head when Eisen started talking about the weapons at the disposal of other QBs...while we trotted out there with OBJ (a shadow of his former self was a perfect description) and....not Landry...and scored 42 points.

42 points and his biggest pass-catching weapon was Njoku.

I watched the video and I agree 100%. I've been one of the ones that has defended Baker.

Those more critical of Baker have suggested OBJ is a shell of himself because Baker can't throw him the ball. I have seen posters claim OBJ is open on every single play. . . . So there's that.

Not only that, there must be a whole lot of people who pay for the 22 view because I sure can't see that watching TV. Heck, I go to all the home games and I don't see that. I do admit I watch the ball 95% of the time and don't focus on some lineman blocking or a receiver running his route.

At least for me, I am a fan, I am not trying to act like a scout scouting a player. I would rather watch Chubb running for a TD rather than see if some receiver is trying to make a block on the opposite side of the field...but that's just me. For others, if that floats their boat, have at it.

People often forget where we were before Baker arrived. I'm just happy to be the rider of a team that I'm not ashamed of. We can all hold our heads high when we talk about our team. People are all up in arms because he's not deep balling it all over the place with 4tds a game. Whatever! I'm glad we're winning games and looking like a legit SB contender. All of our issues are fixable and there's still plenty of time to fix those. We are in a good spot. I prefer that over 1-31.

I've heard that as well...and I don't doubt that there is/are All-22 views that show OBJ being open. Something is weird there.

Here's where I get really confused on the issue: Baker has shown throughout his career that he can and will spread the ball around to many targets. The numbers back that up.

So...is the problem that Baker isn't seeing OBJ? That seems unlikely because Baker spreads the ball around quite well.

It leads me to believe that Baker doesn't trust OBJ...no idea to what degree.

That, or by design or delay, how soon is OBJ getting open? I don't know at what point baker may look at OBJ, but if he isn't looking open when Baker looks his way, the play is over for OBJ.

It's not like baker can stand there for 6 seconds scanning the field. Add in new tackles, that has to make Baker speed up his "clock" a bit, needed or perceived.

Hey, I’m not going to go back and forth on this, but since people are asking about all 22 and how would you know OBJ is often open, here is what I’ve been watching during the week.

OBR Twitch channel - Jake Burns play breakdowns

I’m pretty sure he does every pass play, and whether you agree with his comments or not, at least you get to see what is happening with your own eyes.

" Chargers coach Brandon Staley praised Baker Mayfield leading up to Sunday’s game at SoFi Stadium, and embraced him and spoke to the Browns QB after the Chargers’ 47-42 victory.

Staley looked to be complimenting Mayfield for his performance in the shootout, in which he rebounded from his bad game vs. the Vikings with a 23-of-32 performance for 305 yards, with two TDs without an interception for a 122.5 rating.


The former quarterback for the Dayton Flyers seemed genuine when complimenting Mayfield’s “plant your flag” demeanor and arm talent during the week.

“Every quarterback has a unique style, but his style is that of confidence and fearlessness,’’ Staley said. “He’s a creator. He doesn’t get enough credit for how good of a passer he is. I know, when I was with [Rams head coach] Sean [McVay] last year, we just have so much respect for how he throws the football, too. He’s a very powerful guy. He can really drive the football and can throw it off-platform. I think, just as a pure passer, he doesn’t get enough credit for how good of a thrower of the football that he is.”

Mayfield may have lost the game, but he retained a fan in Staley."

But but we have experts on the Board who make statements like:

talk show hosts "gunslinger" and "game manager."

Google Baker Mayfield and read what he has done in his life.

And maybe remember Cody Kessler and Charlie Frye and all the others on "The List" on the back of "The Jersey."

Baker is the Browns quarterback and I for one will pull for him everytime he steps on the field with a Browns uniform on.

And I am thankful for what he has done so far wearing that uniform.

https://www.sbnation.com/secret-base/217...goals-turnovers

This is a website I found that's somewhat relevant. They went way back and got probabilities of winning based on number of points scored. There's essentially 0 difference in win probability between 42 and 48-49.

Just another way of showing how the argument of "Baker didn't score the last touchdown so that's why we lost" is flawed. It only makes sense if you ignore everything before the last few drives.

That's a great resource. What it doesn't do is let us know whether OBJ got open at the right time based on play design... and one thing we know for sure, is if if BM locks onto OBJ waiting for him to break open and becomes keyed on OBJ, the D will react to that and the detractors will criticize him for it. Even with BM holding the ball longer than most - he has maybe 3 seconds to go through ALL his progressions and constantly move on to the next read when they aren't open. I think it's fair to say BM doesn't go through those progressions as quickly as some of the elite QB's yet (maybe he never will) ... so 'being open' on film doesn't truly tell the complete story either.

OBJ should catch the ball on a 4th down 2 yard pass that hits him right between the numbers.

j/c...

This is a reasonable article.

Ben Axelrod
@BenAxelrod
I don't know why we still argue so much about Baker Mayfield. We already know what he is and what he isn't.

MY COLUMN:

There's no debating it: Cleveland Browns' signal-caller Baker Mayfield is the most polarizing quarterback in the NFL.

CLEVELAND — Like most red-blooded Americans, watching NFL football on Sunday afternoon largely serves as a warmup for Monday morning sports debate shows. And in the Axelrod house, we don't miss Michael Irvin Mondays on "First Take."

But as I watched Stephen A. Smith continue his ongoing battle against the world by facing one of the greatest receivers in NFL history this week, I found myself confused by the direction of their debate.

"Can the Browns win with Baker Mayfield?" the chyron on the screen read.

How could this be?

Sure, Cleveland had just lost to the Los Angeles Chargers in heartbreaking fashion hours earlier. But the Browns' 47-42 Week 5 defeat was also arguably the best game of Mayfield's NFL career. Not only that, but Cleveland has already won with Mayfield at quarterback, as evidenced by last year's 11-5 regular-season record and postseason win vs. the Pittsburgh Steelers on the road.

Irvin backed Baker. Meanwhile, Smith -- the greatest sports debater of our time -- claimed, "you ain't winning no title with no Baker Mayfield. There [are] too many roadblocks."

Monday: it grew. While some tweets wrote the "First Take" segment off as frivolous fodder, others gave it credence, siding with Smith's opinion that Mayfield isn't a Super Bowl-caliber quarterback.

In fact, the noise grew so loud that both Mayfield and his wife, Emily, responded to it with posts on their Instagram stories. Several Browns fans also rushed to the No. 1 pick of the 2018 NFL Draft's defense -- perhaps in a way that was outsized to the actual criticism.

As for that criticism that Mayfield finds himself facing, it seems flimsy at best.

"He doesn't know how to win," has become a common sentiment. I suppose that means he just "guessed" his way to 12 wins last season.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are valid complaints to make about Cleveland's quarterback; his accuracy has been inconsistent, he's been too conservative with his approach and his chemistry with Odell Beckham Jr. remains nonexistent two-and-a-half years into their partnership.

There's no mistaking what Patrick Mahomes and Justin Herbert -- the two quarterbacks who have beaten the Browns this season -- are capable of compared to what Mayfield has shown through the first four seasons of his career.

But the part that I think confuses me the most about criticism of Mayfield this week is that nothing he did (or didn't do) vs. the Chargers changed my opinion of what he is as a starting quarterback. He's not one of the NFL's 10 best quarterbacks -- that would be tough to argue. Rather, he's somewhere between 12-20 -- a range of rankings that seems to fluctuate on a weekly basis (think Matthew Stafford, Ryan Tannehill, Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins and Matt Ryan).

Sure, at his best, Mayfield looks like a top-five quarterback, capable of going toe-to-toe with the best quarterbacks in the NFL -- as he did vs. Mahomes and Herbert this season. But at his worst, he looks like a fringe starter and a reminder of why Cleveland gave Case Keenum a three-year, $18 million contract to be his backup before the 2020 campaign.

Like most quarterbacks, the truth is that Mayfield lives somewhere between his two extremes. Factor in his pull-no-punches personality and it shouldn't come as a surprise that he's still the league's most polarizing quarterback at this point in his career.

Dating back to his storied college career at Oklahoma, Mayfield has been a lightning rod and the 2017 Heisman Trophy winner has done nothing since then to shed that label. For some, his best will never be good enough, while others will defend him even after performances in games where he admitted he played poorly.

As for my personal opinion on Mayfield, I think you can absolutely win a Super Bowl with him as your starting quarterback -- so long as you have the right team and coaching staff around him. The good news for Cleveland is the Browns have just that, although I think it's also fair to wonder how long that will be the case for as their salary cap fills up.

While some see Cleveland's losses to Kansas City and Los Angeles as proof the Browns can't beat those teams, Mayfield's performances in those games only strengthened my belief they could be Super Bowl bound this season.

Don't agree? I'd tell you to debate me.

But at this point when it comes to discussing Mayfield, an invitation to argue seems redundant.

https://twitter.com/BenAxelrod/status/1448379962076053507
https://www.wkyc.com/article/sports/nfl/...51-26d9c1a01fe6

" Smith -- the greatest sports debater of our time "

after this highly dubious statement I skimmed through the rest. Meh.

Sarcasm is lost on some people.

Baker needs to win in the 4th quarter against good teams when it matters.

all the stats in the world isn't gonna change that. being clutch when its time to be clutch. and in THIS Season, he hasnt been clutch when it matters. he had the chance to beat the chiefs. he couldnt make the throws. he had a chance to beat the chargers, didnt make the throws.

ive been on record saying he's our guy, but some of y'all need to stop acting like he's above criticism. he's in his 4th season, 2nd under the same system.

why is his mechanics and footwork still an issue? why does he seem to panic when the pressure is on? why is he missing open guys, or not even seeing them open?

everyone trying to put in on OBJ as if baker hasn't been hitting his other receivers as well?

he was drafted #1 overall, and is the 3rd best QB in his class, and the third best QB in our division.

at the end of the day, he has to be able to lead us to a W against good teams, especially in the playoffs. an elite QB does that despite everything else breaking down around him.

he has all season to prove that to the FO. plenty of time to get it going. he has the best rushing attack in the league, the best O line in the league, a good HC/OC, and a great receiving group.

let me be clear: i ABSOLUTELY believe he can do it. but baker needs to be clutch in the 4th. he has to be able to put a team on his back, because there WILL be a time where a team stops our rushing attack, or at least tames it. and Baker is gonna have to throw us to a W.

he's the guy. i dont want anybody else. but he isn't a rookie, and he's not on a bad team. This season, we're gonna find out if he's the Franchise, or Jared Goff.

Spot on.

Thanks.

"great receiving group" - Sure, sure. LOL

I posted this on another topic. I Love Eisen! He called it as it is... Baker is for Real.
Real fans know Baker didn't lose this game or the Chiefs game.

I relate your last statement to basketball. You're at the free throw line, down 1, a second left. You miss. Game over. Everyone wants to blame you, while ignoring the free throws your team mates missed in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and early 4th quarter.

or he threw a perfect alley-oop and the teammates were tripped up so the ball ended up going out of bounds.

you mean like the 4th down play that hit OBJ in the numbers. But let's not mention that.. thanks for the comment

https://twitter.com/JordanZirm/status/1448427230074343425

Baker mentioned how physical OBJ has been in the run game and boy he wasn't wrong

brutality.

I just wish we were one of those teams people know are probably going to win if they get the ball with 1-2 minutes left. As it is now, it's pretty much a given that we aren't.

Now if we could get him to catch the ball in the clutch we would have a solid receiver too.

I really don't disagree with you. But there's also more to it than just Mayfield. I think the playcalling could've been a bit more clutch as well.

I don't disagree with most of what you said.

But let's not confuse posters supporting Baker when some folks only ever want to find fault in everything Baker does and when posters show a constant and pre-medicated determination on Baker's ceiling .... and fan's suggesting Baker is beyond criticism and doesn't need to improve. I don't know anyone that doesn't think Baker deserves criticism and needs to improve. When he has a stinker like he did vs the Vikings posters who support BM are honest. No-one thinks he is above criticism like you implied.

I know I have highlighted Baker's areas of deficiency in the past as have every other Baker 'fan' I know on the board. No-one says he is perfect. What gets heated and might appear skewed sometimes is when posters respond to the overly critical opinions that spam the boards.

Someone else has mentioned the 7 comebacks Baker has lead - as many or more than all the other QB's in his class if I remember. Someone mentioned how he lead the team back against Baltimore last year scoring 22 4thQ points - and then having the Defense let Baltimore score with 1:04 seconds left in the game. So he has done it - probably more often than fans remember. . . . he's certainly NOT done in a few games and fans remember those occasions. Everyone agrees he needs to do it more.

Let's be clear, the Browns are a very good team - they are NOT a Championship caliber team. Baker Mayfield is a good QB playing within a scheme that is not playing to his strengths or skill set and he is far from a great QB at this stage of his career.

The defense is a work in progress and no where near the type of defense the team needs to be considered Championship caliber. That's another topic to be discussed elsewhere. The Browns offense however has the pieces in place to be a Championship caliber offense. The biggest drawbacks are two - first, the Browns have not shown the ability to close out games. Even the games they have won this year has shown clear instances of the lack of ability to close out the game. It is so noticeable that if the Browns have the ball with 3-4 minutes to go you absolutely know that the opponent is going to get another chance with the rock. The NFL is balanced enough that as a team you either have this ability or you risk games on a weekly basis.

Second, and even more disturbing, is the total lack of a 2-minute offense. Though I believe it is great that the Browns currently have the #1 rush offense in the NFL, being 25th in passing at a very low 230.0 yard average per game is not going to cut it for a Championship caliber team in a passing league. The Browns current scheme is not set up for a 2-minute drill and they are currently unable to perform at that level because they have changed the mindset of Mayfield from a gunslinger into game control QB.

Now I believe that Baker needed to be scaled back because early in his career the risk was way higher than the rewards. Unfortunately, though the Browns now have a QB with a high completion record and a very decent QB rating. They don't have a QB with the skill set to move the team quickly done the field. I have not seen the Browns exhibit the ability to move the team 60-70 yards in less than a minute to get that final score and not even considered a team that would ever take the advantage of a 2 for 1 opportunity at the end of the half and then getting the ball and scoring at the start of the second half.

Each of these situations presented themselves in one way or another in the two losses that the Browns have suffered this year and can even be attached to our loss to KCC in the layoffs. If you take an unbiased look at the so called Super Bowl contenders for just this year, you would be hard pressed to identify a single team outside of the Browns and Titans that does not have the ability to run a feared 2-minute drill. Dallas, GBP, TBB, ARI, LAR, BUF, KCC, LAC, PIT, and after Monday even BAL all have QB's that teams fear when they get the ball with less than 2 minutes to go in the half or game. If you take a look at BAL with Jackson for example, they built their team around his skill and talents and they have been running wild there for 3-years running. The issue with the Ravens was they couldn't pass especially in the late moments of games when they needed too. This fault reared it's ugly head in the playoffs multiple times. The Ravens just spent an entire off season attempting to correct that issue. The result of those efforts now have the Ravens after 5 weeks with the 4th best rushing team (still can run even with the loss of 3 separate starting RB's) but their pass offense is currently 6th in the NFL after 5 weeks. Now I don't know how this will all play out for the Ravens but I do know that in 3 of their wins they had to come from behind to win and two of those wins came on the last drive of the game.

For those of you that get sensitive when it's said that the Browns took the "gunslinger" out of Mayfield, the stats don't lie. At Oklahoma, Baker threw for 12,292 yards for 69.8 completion pct and 109 TDs. That was 307.3 yards per game played with 2.7 TD's per game. Since he's been with the Browns: 2018 = 286.5 yds per game & 2.08 TDs, 2019 = 239.2 yds per game & 1.38 TDs, 2020 = 222.7 yds per game & 1.63 TDs, and 2021 = 230.0 yds per game & .80 TD's. In 2021, Baker is down 19.7% in yards compared to 2018 and 61.5% in TD's thrown per game. Compared to Oklahoma, Baker is down 25.2% in yards and 70.4% in TD passes per game in 2021. The Browns drafted a "Gunslinger" at #1 and have turned him into a game manager for a team that has not shown the ability to close out games with a nonexistent 2-minute offense.

If the Browns are ever going to be a serious Championship caliber team (for more than a 1 season fluke), they absolutely have to fix these obvious deficiencies. Otherwise, the Browns will just be a good team without a franchise QB that can carry the team when needed.

Another good post.

To me, the shine has come off of Stefanski's offense a bit. We need to be both explosive in the run and pass game. I get that we have two great backs, but if they don't get Baker going there will be too many games like the Chiefs and Chargers this year. The team has to be able to close, specifically the coach and QB. Both Stefanski and Baker have taken a step back this year, IMO. It's demoralizing to me when I hear AVP talk about having to get our 4th year QB some easy throws to get him comfortable. I think you would be hard pressed to find that kind of language from teams that have elite QBs. And it's demoralizing to me to hear our 4th year 1st overall pick tell the media we know our identity is to run the ball. This is a former Heisman trophy winning QB who won that award by throwing the ball all over the field.

I would like to see Stefanski open it up against the Cardinals. Run some hurry up. For Baker, two things I've kind of noticed. He seems to expect pressure when backups are in even if there is no pressure there. And once a wide receiver messes up, he won't even look at them. He needs to stop both of those practices and just play the game.

This is a huge game upcoming. Beat the Cardinals, and you are 4-2 with all these warts through 6 games. Lose and the season is not over by any stretch, but you'll have a ton of work to do to build back up that momentum.

Free Baker. And if he throws an interception or two, so be it. Free Baker. A dominant running game has not beaten the two best teams we've played so far this year. Free Baker.

Since #FreeToddMonken has been retired....

#FreeBaker

j/c

Every team in the league with the "comeback quick strike" ability has an elite talent at TE and/or WR. Someone who gets wide open with regularity.

We do not have a dynamic talent at the pass-catching positions...we just don't.

wut?

I don't totally disagree with your post. My argument is that don't most "great" teams have to go through the "good" and "very good" stages before they get to the point where they're considered great or 'championship-caliber'?

In order for fans to have that feeling that, "they'll get that TD... they got this" they have to do it a few times first. I think the team, overall, is getting there. It's Stefanski's second year. The teams with the talent to do something about his offense now have more than enough film to work against our offense. Seeing brief setbacks (especially small ones) with our offense isn't worriesome to me.

BS about not having an elite or dynamic TE or WR talent. OBJ, Landry and Hooper have all been to the Pro Bowl. However, when OBJ gets 3 targets in a game and Hooper only 1, how much effort do you think these guys are giving knowing they are being looked at 5% of the total plays between them. Actually it was 4.1% for OBJ and 1.3% for Hooper.

Just an FYI, Hooper averaged 73 receptions and 92.5 targets the 2-years previous coming to Cleveland and made the Pro Bowl both years. Last year the Browns targeted him 70 times with 46 receptions. The math tells you he lost 24.3% of his targets and 36.9% of his receptions.

Landry 3 Pro Bowl years at Miami showed him averaging 105.3 receptions on 152.6 targets. In his 3-years at Cleveland he's averaged 78.6 receptions on 129.3 targets. The math tells you he lost 15.3% of his targets and 25.4% of his receptions. Another note is that Landry's targets have dropped every year he's been with the Browns - 2018 = 149, 2019 = 138, and 2020 = 101.

OBJ is a little different due to the injury years but interesting just the same. Beckham's final 3-years in NY (where he missed time in 2 of those years - 16 of 32 games) he averaged 111.3 targets per year even tough he missed significant time in 2 of those years and 67.6 receptions. In the 2-years he's been with the Browns (where he only missed 9 games) he is averaging 88 targets and 48.5 receptions. Injury time included, that's a 20.9% target reduction and a 28.3% reduction in completions.

Not unlike Baker, why bring a Pro Bowl WR or TE to your team if you are not going to use their skills? I mean seriously, the best they have done is reduce Landry 25.4% of the completions that he had prior to joining the Browns. The other two guys have been treated even worse. You have a QB that's been changed from a gunslinger into a game manager and your targets are dropping even further as evident by Baker currently averaging .80 TD passes per game in 2021. I don't know about you, but with one of your stars out on IR and you get looked at only 3 or 1 times a game I'm pretty sure they're saying to themselves WTF. You say we don't have elite or dynamic talent - I say no team has elite/dynamic talent when you're only throwing for 230 yds per game on average, your QB is completing nearly 70% of his passes and you only get 3 or 1 targets in a game where you score 42 points. NO TALENT IS ELITE/DYNAMIC IF IT'S NOT USED!

I think back to the first touchdown. OBJ and Higgins both lined up on the right side of the field. OBJ slanted inside and Higgins ran an out route and was wide open. Why? Both defenders on the play choose to follow OBJ. Should Baker have forced the ball to OBJ? Would a touchdown to OBJ make Baker a better QB?

I think that is happening more often than not. Teams are slanting coverage's OBJ's way.

As far as wide receivers averaging less yards in Cleveland than other places. WE ARE A RUNNING TEAM. Balanced attack but run the bal far more than most other teams. That is this teams identity. That means OBJ and Landry's numbers will not be as eye popping but hopefully will lead them to a deep run in the playoffs. Baker job is to manage the attack. Could he be more of a gun slinger QB? Probably, but that is not what Stefanski is asking him to be. Run the ball, play action pass off the run. That is who are team is. I would say it is working well except the defensive injuries and losing when scoring 42 points on the road.

KS and AVP have implemented their offense based upon what they feel will work best.

A playing personality based upon the skills of the players.

The Browns have the best running attack in the NFL.

Their zone blocking scheme fits to the skills of Chubb/Hunt.

They feature two and three TE's sets and a play action pass game. They use screens to backs and TE's.

The pass game is sync'd to drop steps and routes trees to get the ball out.

The Browns are not a drop back pocket pass team throwing to 3 and 4 receivers. That is not their game.

The offense is based upon balance and disquise.

You will rarely see 300 yards of passing with receivers getting tons of targets.

Not when Chubb and Hunt get 30 plus carries.

Baker is not Dan Marino.

Jarvis fits what we do. Odell can fit but he will never get tons of targets.

Hooper in Atlanta was a huge part of their game. He is a role player in this scheme.

All quarterbacks are game managers. They run the plays called. Win the game. That is a game by game deal. KS and AVP along with Callahan and the other offensive coaches delvelop a game plan based upon what they see are the best matchups. The offense is diverse and each game will feature different guys.
==================================================

For years I would have been happy to play 500 ball.

Now we are a winning team.

And we have Board members who believe they know better than the coaches.

Baker is the focal point of every win or lose. He is this and he is that.

He is the starting quarterback on a roster of 53. He runs the offense given to him. He does not play call.

He plays to win the game as best he can.

So far in his career with the Browns. He has done pretty well all things considered.

We shall see what the future brings.

There's no doubt that's true. But honestly, if you stopped throwing the ball to every NFL WR who dropped an easy pass, there wouldn't be any NFL WR's left to throw the ball to. They all drop an easy one from time to time.

Well, the people that brought Baker and OBJ to town are not here anymore, so that question makes no sense. Hooper I thought was a bad signing from day 1. Berry et al. didn't trust Njoku, and they have been proven wrong on that call.

Landry's a bit different. No way he could maintain that target share his whole career...even if he actively tried to find teams that had NO other playmakers, he still would not have maintained those targets.

Bottom line, since KS has implemented his system, WRs are at best a 2nd option, and often a 3rd option. This is currently seems like a big problem at the moment, but there are positives long term:

1. Moving forward, we do NOT need to pay big $ for WR, leaving more cap flexibility at other positions.

2. That doesn't mean we won't be able to get talented guys. There are plenty of WRs that are on the downside of their career that, if they thought our team provided a good shot at a title, would be happy to sign on board. e.g. AJ Green's deal with the Cards.

The attached shows Baker in the Air Raid offense at Oklahoma.

Some may find it interesting.

It might be helpful to understand that you play how you are coached.

You also run the offense the coaches want you to run.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/05/baker-...les-protections

BONEFISH,

It doesn't matter what he did at Oklahoma. 1. He is a 4th year QB. College is irrelevant. 2. As long as KS is our coach, you're never seeing that offense on the Browns. Again, irrelevant. What Baker and KS need to do is work together better within the KS system.

The point of providing the link is to those who might have interest.

There are those who believe Baker can not play that style of football.

And that he is incapable of coming from behind throwing the ball.

Myself, I have no concern. I know Baker can make throws into tight windows.

Also, IMO the offense will find their groove. Odell still has more value here than in a trade.

KS and AVP know what Baker is capable of.

KS iron rule is no turnovers. I get that. He has not lost a game when we have not turned it over.

At the same time KS has to understand that times will come when the Browns will need to trust Baker more.

I think there is an observable difference when Baker is executing the game plan, and to his credit executing it well, and when Baker is "in the zone". I think drop back, plant and throw is when he's at his best and a game speed more natural for him. But then I'm not a QB coach so take that for what its worth.

He may be at his best when the call rolls him out. When he sits, he can get sacked while waiting. Baker active and mobile seems sharper and, well, more dangerous to me. But that is a rolled out Baker, not a flushed BM who can get creamed and screw up his OL.

Kevin Stefanski is hurting the effectiveness of Baker Mayfield?

One of his worst shows if you ask me.

Defense: point blank no excuse but fact.
Clowney out, Garrett and Takk playing injured as well as our DTs.
JOK was limited in the 4th quarter as he got hit in the throat.
Newsome out, Ward out, Greedy out.

Johnson at FS makes others play better Our DBs were rag tag situation so the results were bad. Pressure got less and less due to injuries. Yes I think coaching has to win us these games as we are in it.

Quite frankly I don't like the fact that Ski cannot create space unless its play action, its not Baker who cannot play unless its play action Its our play book. Yes I know its played out but 3rd and 10 late in the game with our defense playing like a wet paper bag (remember those days) we run the ball to get 30+ seconds off the clock and give them back the ball to win the game. Getting a first down was key...why Run, run and no play action instead a run on first or 2nd downs. Ski has no faith in our Franchise QB, that is not a good situation. Sometimes we have to play spread and create space with a no huddle situation. But SKI is so intent on playing conservative which wouldn't be that bad if the D wasn't hurting so badly. But the O was going to have to win the game and Baker can win a shoot out but he is not given the OPPORTUNITY. Staying with in the system and playing conservative would be possible if we had Stud impact players for the air game. But we don't - OBJ is not working out in this O...spread em no huddle would benefit OBJ and our WRs. But we just don't have the talent as was reported by all these reports about how stack we are. We are not - we got a very good OL and we got two PRO Bowl RBs... I do blame coaching for not winning these games...I'm talking about winning Chiefs and Chargers games!

jmho - Oh and I'm getting to like the new format once I have figured some things out...lol

Good point about the lack of separation without playaction. I thought that last year vs KC as well

quincy always has a good program and take.

I agree.

I check him out a couple times a week. He is better than plenty of "experts" who are on TV.

Kinda of funny that all these former players get on tv.

And most of them talk their talk and clearly have team prejudice.

Quincy is a homer but he is knowledgeable and honest when it comes to the Browns.

He talks football in a what he saw fashion which I cherish. Whilst these talking heads and self acclaimed experts make their opinions mostly off of STATS...which I would do back in the day prior to satellite and actually viewing the games. I would envision the game simply by assessing the stats. Well these guys watch a few games not all and rarely our games so that they judge us via STATS...not actual football.
jmho

I'm not properly equipped to argue X's and O's with the likes of this guy, but I was under the impression that JJ3 came here to be our FS because that is his "thing". He's a smart defender that's instinctual and with gobs of coverage ability for a safety (can flex to the corner position when needed). I'm parroting what I remember reading when he came here.

I'm not really sure about his "let Baker be Baker" argument. I get what he's saying that Baker isn't Cousins, but you can allow your QB to sling it more without leading to a whole mess of INTs. I think we might still be working on getting both those things to be true at the same time. I also buy the line of thinking that we're playing conservative due to Baker's bum wing and our tackle situation.

Stefanski is not afraid to look in the mirror and be self critical.

He made a mistake with the 3rd down call. He knows it. I think he felt the tackles were a problem.

Going forward IMO KS will learn to trust Baker more.

This is their second year together both Baker and KS are learning as each week passes.

Odell is working hard. He is drawing double coverage but he is also blocking. DPJ, Higgins, Schwartz, Felton all need to step up.

If they are running routes while Odell is drawing double. They have to get open. DPJ has shown he can win contested balls. Higgins reads zones well and finds space. Schwartz has to find out what he can do?

Baker just needs to read the play and find the right guy.

I am optimistic the passing game will improve.

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/17/21:

Patrick Mahomes
Justin Herbert
Kyler Murray

Aaron Rodgers
Lamar Jackson
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady
Joe Burrow

Matt Stafford
Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill

Fans Baker would take over cfrs15: anyone.

💩

And there he goes throwing poop like monkeys at the zoo... When I made that statement, I was trying to push you to be a better fan; I failed.

Push me to be a better fan? It is not for you to decide who is a good or bad fan. Come down from Mt. Pious and hang out with the rest of us, the clouds are obscuring your view.

I’m pretty sure Bake would take U over rish & lead … some folks insist on showing how little they know about football week in and week out …

Boom. So it is written. So it shall be done.

I'll get on Twitter and see what Emily thinks. I'll ask her to ask Baker if he'll still accept me as a fan.

Lmao

before anybody flips out, we need baker to make the playoffs.

but this thursday night game coming up should be a great reason to just sit baker and give him a mini bye. maybe all it takes is a week and he's back for the next game. but right now, the injury is too big of an issue to keep him out there. especially if both our OTs are out on thursday night again, thats just a recipe for a season ending injury on baker.

In the grand scheme of things this is correct.

He misses a game to get better and has his mini bye to heal up. Miss him for a single game or potentially a season, you decide? It would be a smart decision so I hope it happens.

Won't deny that Baker needs to get healthy, but his shoulder is screwed until he has surgery or allows enough time for it to heal to a point that it's no longer causing pain. But there is no way I see them benching Baker for even a game if he's saying he can play.

My understanding is that an extra off week isn't really going to do anything to help his injury. It's going to be a management thing all year (or we just shut him down).

Jc

Im trying to give baker the benefit of the doubt this season. I’m trying to be positive and say your draft position doesn’t matter, just your performance. I’m trying to add context and remember that we got injuries all over the place.

But then I look around the league and remember that other teams not only have injury problems at key positions as well, but don’t even have the plethora of weapons when they ARE healthy that baker does.

Josh Allen IS the run game in Buffalo. They don’t have running backs like ours. Lamar Jackson IS the running game in Baltimore. Their O line sucks and all their RBs are injured.

Ever since the legion of boom area ended, Russell Wilson has had crap o lines and even worse RBs with not a lot of good receivers, and yet still manages to get division titles and compete at a high level.

Matt stafford had literally nobody but Megatron. Still found a way to atleast put his teams in position to win.

Hell, in Cincy, there’s no question that Joe burrow is far and away better than baker. And he has no where near the talent level on offense that baker has.

And at this point, it’s gonna be hard to convince me that an old ass Big Ben wouldn’t have us at the top of the division right now.

Why? Because in a QB driven league, all those QBs have the ability to put a team on their back and win. They all have the ability to get their best player the ball. So far our QB, especially against playoff/SB contending teams, just can’t seem to do it.

If everything around baker needs to be completely perfect for him to succeed (Jared Goff, Ryan tannehill) then ok.

But if that’s the case, im not sure any of us can expect a SB title. Because perfect conditions every week isn’t realistic. Injury free isn’t realistic. The perfect play call every week isn’t realistic. And since we don’t have a QB who can thrive under bad conditions, then it shouldn’t be surprising that some of us can only expect a winning record and wild card birth every season.

Cause division titles and deep playoff runs is something I can’t even dream about right now. 4 years in, and the best we got is 2nd place in the division.

Some of you will predictably respond with “look where we’re at before baker” and all that, but please, stop.

The point is to win titles, not be happy with mediocrity and a bunch of progressive commercials.

So what you're saying is you have decided NOT to give Baker the benefit of the doubt...

I’m trying to say that we might have already seen bakers ceiling. But I still have hope.

Baker seems to have a tendency to look (shall we say) something other than competent in the first portions of seasons before making a change and going on a tear in the back half of the season. I have no idea as to the why behind this, but we've seen this happen over the past few seasons under various circumstances.

I'll reserve judgement until much later.

I think people should remember that it's his left shoulder that has gone on a tear.

My biggest issue with Baker is that he can look super elite like he looked last year (after Odell's injury), then look super average the next. He only looks good when everything is going well. You never know exactly what you're gonna get from him. I'm taking everything else into consideration too. I know our oline is banged up and our rbs are out. Coach has to find a way to help him out as well. But there are moments when the opportunities are there and he hardly takes advantage of them. He takes too long going through his reads and misses his target, or tries to take off running like Lamar. These were issues before the shoulder injury. Outside of the Bengals game last year, I have yet to see him take us down the field with his arm for the win.

Pre-injury, I thought he

looked alright. Nice and efficient. Afterwards, not so much.

And I’ll ask something of you and, all the other posters. Stop with the Progressive commercials references. They have no bearing on his performance.

I don't know, Jack Conklin does a commericial and now he's injured!

Jed Wills was in a commercial.

Honestly I am over all the Baker talk.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just keep that in perspective.

It is an opinion.

Baker is a classic overachiever. He has come a long way from humble beginnings.

He is fighter who has had to claw his way to the NFL. Then he faced the history of this franchise.

He has played hurt. He plays to win. He is a leader and a great teammate who has the respect of his team and coaches.

I am glad he is a Cleveland Brown.

When you listen to the coaches and the players who have played with him. They all believe in him.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. They are just opinions.
In my opinion. A lot went wrong when the team decided to use a 3rd round pick on A. Schwartz as a WR, who though very fast, with a track speed record, was not the most pronounced, polished, wr in all aspects of producing in college.
Then, what went wrong on the play that Baker Mayfield was injured on. There was talk that Schwartz didn t do something, and it may have lead to the int. and Mayfield injured his shoulder attempthing a tackle, which isn't necessary if there is not a player returning an interception.
Now, it s not Schwartz s fault they drafted him. It s also not Schwartz fault he was in the game, because if you are a football player and you get drafted and put in the game, you go play. Somebody decided not only to draft Schwartz, but also to not bench him for the whole year I suppose, and those decision makers are never allowed to be questioned. no??

And now he's injured!

Did Schwartz steal your lunch money or something? Every single thing that is brought up about this team's troubles, lead you to mention drafting Schwartz. Give it a break, it is as stale as most of your takes.

So, there is this.

The folks that have put the theory ahead that KS is trying to turn Mayfield into Cousins should expect Keenum to do well tonight.

Good point. Keenum was Cousins before Cousins. I absolutely think Keenum can be serviceable and run this offense well enough to win a couple games. What I don't think he can do is win it without any RB, WR or OT. Keenum might be better than an injured Baker but either one of them are going to get battered and bruised tonight IMO. It's why I said I thought Baker should sit before it was announced.

Now if Case pulls this off, all bets are off. He's led a team to a conference championship game before (Baker hasn't). If he figures out how to beat a top defense with zero weapons around him when Baker has failed WITH those weapons...uh oh. That's not a Rich Eisen conspiracy theory that's what would be called a fact.

But again, I expect him to do well but we still lose so all this is moot. Baker will be back.

That's a good point about the injury situation (depleted Oline and missing starters at RB). I reject the idea that starting Keenum is akin to throwing in the towel because (IMO) that begs the question of why we have him as one of (if not the most) well-paid backup QBs currently in the NFL. Dude doesn't get paid that much if it still means guaranteed losing if he has to play.... but you make a good point about the injury situation around him. Regardless of who is under center, our missing guys just might be too much for anyone to overcome. I guess we will see, but my view is that if we can miraculously clean up the stuff we can control that has been holding us back, we should be in decent enough shape vs Denver.

Good point. We’ll see what transpires

Spot on Rich. I can hear the Haters warming up now...

I've had the exact injury that Mayfield has now. Happened during an exhibition judo match. They put my shoulder back in place and I finished the thing left handed. The pain was incredible. I didn't cry but one of the guys working on the mats got sick when he saw how they put my shoulder back. When I finally went to the ER for an X-ray the doc there was just speechless about the whole thing. It was a good three weeks before I was able to take part in any throwing at all and almost six months before I was able to lay off the Motrin. I was back in the dojo a few days after the injury just working on my mobility and doing therapy. It still bothers me, five years later. I had to re-work some of my techniques to accommodate the fact that my right shoulder didn't work the same way after my spectacular landing that night.

My point is this. I just don't see how Mayfield could put on a pair of shoulder pads right now. Much less how he could contemplate getting an NFL player hitting him. I'm going with three weeks from the time of the injury before we see him again. This is not a case of just sucking it up and rubbing a little dirt on it. If it was his throwing arm he would most likely be ruined for good. He'll bounce back. And so will the Team.

Jeep I 'm glad you shared that. All the people dumping on Baker right now should read your post including the ones knocking him on the national sports shows. Maybe all the people critiquing him should experience the injury like you did and see what they think after that. No one knows what anything is like until they experience it themselves.

What's funny to me is that if he crumbled in the pain and didn't play, the narrative would be "wow, his shoulder must be really bad". Since he's toughed it out, everybody is on the "well, it must not be too bad" train. Makes no sense.

I have been saying this since he was injured. I had same injury on throwing arm - dislocated shoulder with torn labrum and rotator cuff.

The humerus bone will continue to pop out of the tear in the labrum when he lands on it or attempts to do anything with overhand motion. It requires surgery to repair - thankfully it is not his throwing arm or his career would be in jeopardy.

Just heard baker has a broken bone as well... he'll be out for several weeks with that most likely...

So he’s out out.

We are hosed.

Says online it take 3 to 4 months to heal

That’s a season breaker

But If true why didn't they put him on IR?

They said they were to see what happened once swelling went down.

If he was still out there chucking the ball with a torn labrum AND a fracture of the humerus...dang. I know it's not his throwing side but I'm amazed he could even hand the ball off with his left side. But it gives some hope that his return won't be as long-term as we might think. Unfortunately I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night though.

Anxiously awaiting how Stefanski will portray this development.

Edit: Just heard that it's a "non-displaced" fracture, which will not change Baker's time line to play the 31st against the Steelers.

I still need baker to be consistent with his mechanics and stop throwing high and wide.

As far as my take on him and OBJ, however, I was clearly wrong. I dunno if it’s a mental block or what, but OBJ needs to be headed somewhere else.

Doesn't say which months, like say March, April, May perhaps. Heal!

I know this has been said or asked but I've never understood the reasoning!
I'd love to know why Browns fans that don't like Baker really don't like him?
I'm 55 and the Browns have always been my team! Chubb is my favorite player and realize the offense runs through him so I'm not a Baker homer but I believe I stand with the majority in liking Baker Mayfield.
I get so tired of the Browns fans who's favorite player is the backup QB or the next great Rookie QB in next year's draft. I believe Baker is not just good enough but that he probably will end up being the best QB the Browns have ever had but to some there has to be someone better. I just do not understand it!!

j/c...

Pardon the long thread of tweets/video....

I Love Rich Eisen

I am guessing based upon what has been published regarding Baker's shoulder.

He will miss the Steeler game and play the Bengals.

That will allow the swelling to calm down.

After returning to play it becomes a management deal. The likelihood of another separation
is high. If that happens he is done for the year.

Not an easy call to shut him down now. He will want to play. Further damage will mean he will have a longer recovery time.

The decision? Who makes it? Berry? Stefanski? Baker? The doctors?

The medical staff will give management a full report. They will explain pros and cons of continuing to play.

They may have a recomendation but will leave the decision to them. Unless the evidence makes it clear he should get the surgery asap.

It is Baker's shoulder. However, Berry and Stefanski will not risk a career ending situation for this year.

My problem is that Baker is not the QB Ski wants...oh he is trying very hard to be that guy. But it just isn't him. Ski is going to have to give. Baker thrives on going NO HUDDLE and spread the D and yet we haven't seen that in quite a while.
Just remember back when Baker was a rookie and he was 20 TD and -0- INT in red zone. That was all no huddle Baker type of game. Ok while we are being conservative with our running game and no mistakes fine. But I'm sorry those games where we are in a shoot em out situation We got to see us in that NO huddle format. Last game I saw us in that format was the shoot em out game vs. Bengals and Burrows. Unfortunately too often we got the lead and end up Run Run and then pass on 3rd and 7 Letting our opponents back into the game. Those two games, Chiefs and Chargers didn't work out.

Please explain to me the 2nd half of last year bro … Ski didn’t seem to be a detriment to Bake for the entire 2nd half of the season .. Bake actually thrived …

U very well could be right that Bake excels in the hurry up - no huddle scenarios but to say Ski is trying to turn him into something he’s not … the 2nd half of last year under Ski, Bake was as good as he’s ever been …

Please explain cause for the life of me I can’t figure it out …

The answer in order is, Doctors, head coach, player.

To me the only real decision the player can make is if he goes to the coach and says he can't play. If the player says he can play but one of the doctors or coach says he can't or isn't, the player is going to sit.

No he doesn't.

I don't disagree with most of what you said except the part quoted. Ski wants a controlled, win the time of possession type offense, so Ski doesn't have to change. He has that type of QB on the bench.

That is why I think there is a decent chance we don't elect to go with Baker moving forward. I hope we do but I won't be shocked if we go with Keenum for a year or two as we draft and groom his eventual replacement.

We will get a good idea if Keenum continues to get starts a few weeks down the road. It will be easy to sit Baker next week, and we probably should, but after that?

Baker should be feeling a bit uneasy at this point. He will probably say he is good to go even if his arm was falling off because he knows that if Ski and Keenum get their mojo going, a mojo that has happened before, he might be done in Cleveland.

You have to look at money in this equation. To sign Baker it will probably take $38 or so mil a year. To get Keenum inked for 3 more years you are probably talking $15 mil a year. If you feel you can win either way, it's stupid to pay near 40 when you can get it done for 15.

Just the reality of the situation.

JMO

sounds like we should be on the phone with seattle. russell wilson would be a perfect fit here if thats the case.

But did you see the Noodle Arm? I don't believe the whole 17 points we scored was an anomaly, we scored 29 and 42 against the Chiefs and Chargers and lost. Do you really think we'll score enough to win games going forward with Keenan? You have to realize the 42 points was with a bad shoulder. We finally have the offense we've wanted since we've been back and you think they'll blow it up to go with noodle arm and draft his replacement. That's the "WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR MENTALITY"

j/c:

Baker Mayfield needs 4-6 months to recover from shoulder surgery if it doesn’t get worse, surgeon says; Fracture is non-displaced

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...worse-noted-orthopedic-surgeon-says.html

Keenum is fine .....if you want a guy who throws short quickly, and almost never takes a look for a big play. Even when he does look for a big play, it seldom is accurate. We won, mainly because of DJ, and because the defense played a solid game.

Do you really trust Keenum to make a big play when needed? I don't. I trust him to be carried along if we have a big game running the ball, making a few short passes along the way. Do you have any confidence in him putting up 21, 27, or more? I sure don't.

He's a decent backup, but I think that's it.

You also have to look at do you think Jimmy Haslam going to wait while they roll the dice on another QB. They're not paying Josh Allen money but Buffalo shouldn't have paid Josh Allen money. I don't think Baker will want to break the bank, he wants to win and I honestly don't understand why any QB would want paid top dollar at the expense of the team. I know there'll be posters that say everyone wants the big pay day but Baker has insurance (Progressive) so it's not like he's hurting for money. Like Chubb, do you think that was all he could've got? He probably signed whatever they threw in front of him and wasn't worried about getting the last couple dollars!

Your reality. Nothing happens anymore without a good conspiracy theory. So if Baker doesn't play after the next few weeks it has nothing to do with his injury? It could only possibly mean that Stefanski is seeing if he can replace Baker with Keenum? Really?

I don't think conspiracy means what you think it means.

Any time you make something up to float a false narrative that you present as somehow sinister I think that qualifies.

IMO.

You can not look at Case and say he equals Baker. He does not.

KS, Berry, AVP and the rest of the coaches and the team know the value Baker brings.

Baker is not going anywhere. A deal will get done. How much? I don't know.

Berry controls the roster and manages the cap.

Unless there is a clear up grade at the position that is doable. Baker remains in Cleveland.

Wilson is an upgrade. So is Aaron Rodgers. Are they real possibilities? In the end I doubt it.

The Browns do not have to sign him this coming year.

With the Browns exercising the fifth-year option on Mayfield’s contract, he now has two years remaining on his rookie deal. The initial contract was due to see Mayfield hit free agency in 2022. Now, however, he will not be a free agent until at least 2023.

Bro, your starting to sound like joKe … no way we win with Case … his arm is beyond weak, they’ll put 11 in the box … *L* …

Our window is now and Case is not the answer … no way, no how … if Bake can’t comeback in the next few weeks were screwed as far as the playoffs go … the window will be open for at least the next couple years after this one but not with Case as our QB … that’s crazy Peen …

We will more than likely resign Bake as long as Bake doesn’t look for elite $$ … if Bake does then maybe we do let him walk, unlike some of the posters on this board I’m pretty sure the FO knows Bake’s not an elite QB … he’s above average but has his negatives and is not elite …

I’ll be shocked if he’s gone, if he does go it’s because he overvalues himself …

No, it doesn't......and that's not what he did.

Whatever you say.

I agree with whole post. And the 11 in the box comment made me laugh because I don't think Case can even throw over the box!! I'm arguing with someone right now in YouTube that says he's been a fan since the 50s want to draft Baker's replacement and see more from Case! How can you actually desire to see more from Case? Thursday night was all I wanna see because if you can't have a threat of the pass teams will stop our run and that'll be L

The problem with the bake vs Case is that this offense isn’t based around the QB. Thursday night threw a huge wrench into this topic now.

It’s one of those things where I dunno if another QB who’s even better than baker will make a difference.

The sole issue with bake right now is the fact that his mechanics are still unrefined. Case doesn’t have an arm near bakers, but his mechanics were clearly better than bakers right now. Look at Case’s footwork compared to Bakers. This is my issue right now.

I get that people want Stefanski to unleash baker, but you can’t just take the collar off when dude can’t even stay consistent with his mechanics. The high and wide throws from
Bake once again showed up this season even before the injury. Baker is highly accurate, so that means it’s a straight up discipline problem.

For argument sake! You said high and wide throws even this year?! He was amazing in the Chiefs game and got hurt in the 2nd game throwing to a Rookie that stopped his route! Where did you see this inconsistency this year before hurt? And I see you mostly support Baker from your posts so I'm not bashing

Chicago and minny game. He was out here with sloppy mechanics.

Dudes just has to stay consistent with his footwork. I’m not mad at him getting his shoulder injured. INT happen and he’s trying to tackle a guy.

I’m simply talking about his inconsistency with mechanics.

We're talking pre-injury! After injury we have no idea what was going on. You said even before injury he was wild. He was great at the end of last season and amazing in Chiefs game so we really don't know how things could have been this year. We could be 6-1
I say someone break Mayfield down since his injury comparing his footwork to last year and saying that since injury his footwork changed to compensate for his injury so he can get power on Ball

Dan Orlovsky already did on one of his segments on ESPN. Bakers footwork changed dramatically after the injury. Baker hasn't been able to follow through the way he did before the injury. The injury has made a big difference.

that's who I was referring to

As high as my hopes for the season were, and as limited as I believe the offense will be with Keenum at QB, I think it makes the most sense to put Mayfield - at least for now - on the IR for 3 weeks, and maybe to shut him down for the year and have the labrum surgery now. The bone fracture is reportedly non-displaced at this time but could easily worsen with another direct hit. Bones need 4-6 weeks to heal and a displaced fracture could result in bone fragments or chips that might really screw up the joint. It sucks, but that fracture has to be allowed to heal.

Don't worry about that guy.

My only point is if baker is questionable, and he will be until he has surgery to fix the problem, if Keenum plays well enough to win, it makes the decision easier to IR Baker.

No way am I saying Keenum is better than Baker, but I am saying that Stefanski may prefer the type of QB that Keenum brings over the style Baker seems to prefer to play.

Why? without putting too much time into it.

1. The OL was intact and playing together for over 8 games and Baker could excel in any O put out there under those conditions.
2. Baker regardless of the scheme was in one for the first time that had the tools at hand.
3. Baker had for the first time a functional running attack that had a team working together like a well oiled machine. Its pretty hard to depend on play action when your running game SUCKS and in the past our running game sucked. The only time it did not previously was with Mangini and his last 4 games of the first year that Holmgren took over. Mangini and DaBoll put together some amazing running attack those 4 games. Outside of that I could not remember any consistent running attack that was successful so that play action pass was a threat. btw same thing with Lamar and the Ravens...if they did not have a great running attack Lamar would not have play action and a clean pocket that he can just sit in and throw.

jmho hope that helps a bit.

This year without his OTs, without his RBs, without his best WR (Landry) Baker just hasn't looked the same and of course the injury didn't help but once he got use to the pain and discomfort of a brace he looked much better.

I guess I can put this here:

If we shut down Baker and put him through his surgery now rather than later so that he would be completely recovered and possibly ready for the playoffs.

Should that be the case do we go out and get Cam Newton signed and quick? I think he would make a much better and effective backup to go out and win games vs our division rivals than Case Keenum if you ask me.

Just thinking Out Loud

I haven't studied Cam Newton, but I saw several of his games in the last 2 years, and I don't think he can throw the football anymore. Plus he was quoted recently as saying his "aura" would prevent him from being a good backup QB. My translation of that is he is not interested in being anybody's backup. If Baker is out for an extended period I'd try to pry Brian Hoyer loose from New England, if only to back up Keenum now, and possibly to replace Keenum next year as a considerably cheaper backup to Mayfield.

Just my two cents but I think Cam has struggled to throw the ball with any accuracy or consistency for at least 2 or 3 years. And that's me being kind. He was a freak athlete, never a good QB. Case, as limited as he might be, will win u more games than Cam could.

Baker has always been more tough than talented. It's got him this far.
But the truth is , he may have peaked as a QB. He isnt that much different than Andy Dalton
Talent wise. When Dalton had good talent around him, he succeeded. When he didnt,
He struggled.
The Browns running game is the idenity of the offense. The QB is there to play error free
And move the chains. Not to carry the offense on.his arm.
Nobody wants to hear it but Mayfield isnt the best QB in the North.
He is a solid very tough QB who fits KS scheme.

Tab I have to disagree about Cam.

Case knows this offense. KS knows Case. They have worked well together in the past.
Case was 13-3 and the Vikings went to the NFC championship game under Stefanski


Cam does not know our offense. In addition, he has not been the same since his shoulder gave out.

He is a running quarterback and that is about it. He can not throw very well.

Case can execute our offense. His issue is throwing and plus routes. He is unable to drive the ball.

But with our running attack and the way we use the TE group. He would give us our best chance.

I don't believe it really did, this is the traditional "Elevate the Backup" that we are known for. One QB managed a game with a high offensive output and a loss, the other managed a game with a much lower output and a win. The first opponent was better than the second. If you are drafting a person to run your offense on the field do you choose the guy who put a lot of points on the board in a loss to Alabama or the guy that managed a pedestrian win over Purdue?

Sorry Tab but the only way I would go after Newton was if I was aligning the team for a better position in the draft.

I think Ski can get it done with a sound running game Case ,and a defense that performs up to capability. The games will look like what we saw against Denver, which I could easily live with.

I hope Ski develops more of a killer instinct when we have a lead, I think that would be helpful but at no time did I feel we weren't in control against Denver and that was a nice easy feeling.

Case has a LOOONG break between this game and next, and adequate time to prepare (instead of a couple days... probably just one day of practice). Give him at least 1 more game before we start figuring out his replacement. With what we pay him, I think it makes sense to give him adequate time to try to conjure whatever allowed him to go on his run in Minny.

I agree as usual.

The issue with Case is when the situation dictates a quick score in limited time.

He is not the guy I want.

If we play to our strength then it may not come up.

People have their opinion on Baker and frankly I am tired of the conversation.

He is our quarterback until he is not.

I have confidence in Baker to win big games and win them with his arm if needed.

I am still hopeful about this year.

Case has long time to prepare, so do all the defenses we'll face. Ugh. I will admit Mayfield is MORE than adequate when healthy AND he's a warrior. Yet, his intangibles get in the way...highly competitive- he's made some cute commercials. He's won a playoff game, but let's not forget he's human and makes his share of bonehead plays. IE, how'd he get hurt, would Brady have tried to tackle a good sized defensive back or let someone else do it. Johnny Menzel found out how he'd "wreck" the league, got smacked on sidelines and was UNAVAILABLE. Baker is damaged goods now, possible nerve damage, yada, yada....JMHO, he's a small QB with great arm...he's NOT Drew Brees, he's not Murray, he's not Burrow, I'd take both those two over Baker, one way more athletics, one bigger....we've got a line and coach...can win some games, but are we really good enough to go SB with Case. Do we really want 30 million a year tied up on a small hurt QB....when a journeyman can win games in our system.....could Charlie Fry win with our line and runners. I think Baker is overachiever and inspires folks with attitude....that works for awhile, then big good beats little good. Go Browns!!!!

Case went 11-3 with the Vikings in 2017 with Ski as his QB coach. It is far from time to panic. He does not have Bakers arm, BUT he has way more experience in the offense, and at this point in both of their careers I believe Case is better at reading defenses.

Maybe Case should do some tricep and deltoid work!!!

...and hips, core, glutes, legs, and then learn how to use all of it together.

He is who he is. No amount of work in the gym is going to change his ball velocity at this point. Some guys can just sling it. Others can’t. Same physical stature. Same build. It just on some level is an innate trait.
Boxers are similar. Some guys are ‘heavy handed’. They just hit harder than other guys that look similar in shorts.

Case is what he is. He’s not heavy handed.

Also taking into consideration it was pretty windy thursday and he hadn't played in a game for a minute. I'd venture to say he'll get better the more he gets out there. He had the long ball in Minn, but def in this offense the short to intermediate is the bread and butter and he can do that.

Wills just blasted the media for taking his quote out of context when he said he didn't see a dropoff with Case's play.

They have Njoku, and Higgins. Nevertheless, they don't appear to have a quick strike offense.

When there are multiple injuries at a number of positions, and our QB is banged up as well, then our ability to score quickly is diminished. We still have dynamic talent at pass-catching positions.

This is much ado about nothing. Mayfield is the current and future starter. Keenum is the self-acknowledged back up. If Keenum wins a bunch this year, he may try to cash in on free agency the way he did after the Minny run. If he does, then there will be a new backup. Mayfield is the starter and projected franchise QB. Stefanski knows that he and Mayfield will find the right mix, just a matter of time.

Please note Cam or another is the relevant thought. This was just thinking out loud if not Cam then somebody else for this conversation. I know we just won with Case but that was Case being actually the BEST he could possibly be and a running game that was outstanding and yet we just squeaked by in this win. I don't think we can come close to playoff bound with Case at the helm - His accuracy goes down on passes over 10 yards and the velocity of his throws are very slow and if a team plays Zone on us they will jump the passes easily. The other negative effect is that since Case can only get short routes off effectively the Defense will crowd the box and not be afraid of playaction as there is no deep threat. Our run game will go down and passes will be jumped for possible turnovers and our WRs will get killed on those short routes as there will be no SPACE in the routes.

jmho

I don't think the FO is all that interested in a rental situation, not to mention I don't think there are any out there any better than what we have in Keenum.

We can speculate all we want but it is a fact Keenum has stepped in before and won. I am not sure what else we could want in a back-up. If we didn't feel he could fill the void, why did we keep him in the first place?

Stefanski has a comfort level with Keenum and Keenum has a comfort level with the O. That is about as good as it gets when you start talking about subbing for your injured starter.

The reality is no matter who we bring in(being real) we are going to miss a beat. If not, maybe we don't need to be thinking about paying Baker $40 mil a year?

If a few games go by and Case is still throwing lollipops (i.e. the Denver game is his ceiling), AND we will be Baker-less going into season crunch-time and postseason (we have some work to do to get into POs), then I can see hunting for a QB. IF we won't get Baker back, then we'll at least need a backup for Case.

The thing is, who are we going to pull off the FA scrap heap that will be better? Keenum has his time in Minny on his resume, knows the system already and is one of the highest-paid backup QBs (we must value his spot on the roster to pay him that much).

If we're going to upgrade, it'll have to be via trade. Bridgewater? Someone mentioned Hoyer... is Hoyer an upgrade over Keenum?

there is no one available FA or trade that is better than Keenum(aside from someone destroying our cap). Our cart is married to the ox.

I actually like Keenum for the offense and think he will do fine holding down the fort until Baker returns.

That's where I am as well. Case has some glaring deficiencies, and if we get 2 TD's behind in any game I think we'll be toast because we simply can't stretch the field with him. But he's the best option out there, knows the system, isn't (shouldn't) panic or make dumb mistakes. But in reality the fate of this season is probably resting on [1] The OL staying healthy [2] Joe Woods defense hitting it's stride and not requiring the offense to score 40+ to win games against good teams.

I do not disagree with the limitations of Case.

However, Case was signed to a three year $18 m contract.

That is big money for a backup. But he is what backups are supposed to be.

Veteran guys who can step in a win some games. He can do that.

Again he knows the system and KS is confident he can execute the plan.

There is nobody that we can go get that would be better given all circumstances.

Would anyone consider trading for Russell Wilson?

He had the falling out with Seattle in the off-season and the Seahawks are struggling, so he could potentially be available.
Realize that this trade would start wit hus giving them Baker and next year's 1st

GENERAL COMMENT...

Everyone seems to agree that Case will be fine until Baker is ready again. Don't disagree, but we've seen this situation before...we convince ourselves the backup will be ok. Then the backup gets hurt. So if Case gets blasted by TJ Watt on a blitz this weekend and is concussed, is the season lost? Is Baker technically available? Would it be better to activate Mullens and put Baker on IR, or just keep Baker on the active roster, hoping he will be ready soon and will not be needed before he's ready?

Also, JESTER...yes. 1000%. Not a short-term rental, and I think that this FO is good enough that we can withstand the loss of multiple years of 25th+ picks.

From a purely Baker centric viewpoint, I think he should be shut down for 4-6 weeks to let the bone fracture heal. I am concerned that a hit could do some serious damage to that bone.

Mayfield should be the back up in this one. If it gets so bad that Keenum is knocked out of the game you put Mayfield in and lock in to a running game to protect Mayfield's mortal remains. I don't see the burning need to wreck Mayfield to try to salvage what is going to be a good, but not great season. It's not like he'd be in top form anyway.

If that's the case, couldn't Nick Mullens just hand the ball off for 3 downs just as well as an injured Baker could without risking further injury?

It takes two to tango.

I don't see Wilson leaving Seattle.

I don't see Baker leaving either. Baker may not be elite but very few are.

Baker is good enough to win a Super Bowl. IMO Berry, KS, Haslam will make Baker a fair offer and he will take it.

He is our quarterback till he is not. And that may be for a long time.

I don't know if there is any chance Seattle trades Wilson. He did make a stink this off season and it seems like there is still some gruffness to their relationship and they are 2-5 in the same division as the 7-0 Cardinals. Would they give up Wilson for Baker and two 1st? Perhaps Baker, two 1st, a 2nd, and a 3rd? I don't know but it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Regardless, my question was more to the board about whether they people would be in favor of or opposed to a mega trade to get Wilson. Mostly along the hypothetical of Baker being done for the season.

not sure I'd give up that much for Wilson when Rodgers will be a FA next year. Wilson is already 32.

j/c...

Injured Baker is much better than Case Keenum. And if Baker is too injured in game we still have Case Keenum.

only way I'd let Baker play is if both tackles are good to go and chubb.

It seems like this is the case.

I do appreciate you posting the info, but I'm not sure it's cool for a doctor to be commenting on Mayfield's ability to play without having examined him or seeing his scans and X-rays.

It's just a guy trying to build a business.

He was the Chargers team doctor for 17 years. Yes, he's building a new business. He's been incredibly accurate in his video analysis, diagnosis and time table for return for players.

Dave... he specifically states he has not personally evaluated Mayfield. He's simply offering his professional opinion.

He's good for gamblers, too!

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/15/dr-david-chao-assesses-nfl-injuries-in-real-time.html

j/c

I think what some seem to be missing with the idea of signing a new QB, be it Russell Wilson, Cam or anyone else is that they do not know the offense. Whether that's the entire offense, verbiage or route trees. What we would be doing is bringing someone in mid season that would have to first learn the offense or critical parts of it. I don't see that as a practical solution. IMO that's the very reason Keenum was signed. Sure, he's physically limited, but he's also plug and play at the position. That's a comfort level we would not find in anyone else we could sign.

Was he the guy who stabbed Tyrod Taylor in the lung, or am I mixing up my stories?

You're mixing up stories. He was not one the Chargers team doctors and was no longer a Chargers team physician when Tyrod Taylor got stabbed in the lung in 2020.

Nope, that quack came after this one... After reading about Chao, they probably upgraded, regardless of the stabbing incident:

The Chao dossier is lengthy. Two drinking-and-driving citations. A DEA investigation. Accusations that he enabled his former partner's prescription-drug habit. Four lawsuits from former Chargers he had treated. In early 2011, reporter Brent Schrotenboer, Chao's most dedicated watchdog, counted 20 lawsuits filed against Chao since 1998, with at least eight of those "settled with payouts to plaintiffs." Another was decided last summer, when Chao was found liable for negligence and fraud in the case of a 15-year-old girl, Whitney Engler, who had been disfigured in the course of Chao's treatment.


https://deadspin.com/the-chargers-doctor-is-a-drunk-quack-why-havent-they-466685771

Who knew Dr. Chao could be so controversial! lol

I don't see where there is much pressure at all on Keenum. Just needs to do what he does, needs to throw the ball well enough to make teams think twice before they stack the box against the run, make good decisions...

The real pressure is on Joe Woods and the defense. If we give up 35+ points (like we've done in all 3 of our losses), it's going to be hard for Keenum to win, just like it was for Baker... if we can keep teams in the low 20s or better (like we've done in all 4 of our wins), then we have a pretty good shot. I think it's about that simple.

That's what happens when some new name starts to get bandied about and is expected to be taken as unquestioned gospel
He SHOULD be questioned, and his opinion - especially on training techniques & practices such as above - should not be taken as absolute in any way.

I don’t really care either way, but this doctor has been doing this online for several years and has been pretty accurate.

The way I see it, seems he commented on why Baker might be able to play. He wasn't going in to why he might not.

I never read it to think he was making a diagnosis of Baker's condition.

Again I was just thinking out loud.
The premise was:
1.Baker was going to shut down and get his surgery so I was thinking a long term solution
2. Case is a good ONE - TWO game solution not long term but why he is paid money to be our backup. Also he is very familiar with the offense and I'm sure is a positive to the QB room.

Anyways doesn't seem to be shutting Baker down sure do hope he plays vs Steelers!

Speaking of Steelers. It's Wednesday of Steelers week and still no GameDay forum up.

More importantly to note…. It’s Wednesday and the Steelers still suck.

Rodgers will be 39 next year. I would also bet that there is no way he would come here.

A video popped up in my YouTube feed which showed the best position for a passer's offside arm to be in during the passing motion is close to the chest, in order to promote accuracy. As you know, Baker's stats against L.A. was 23 of 32 for 306 yards...and this was AFTER his labrum was torn the week before, and wearing the left shoulder brace. I was just thinking that MAYBE the shoulder brace would reinforce the left arm to be held in closer to the chest as he throws, thus collaterally enhancing accuracy. Hey, just looking for a positive in this crazy season. And maybe we'll go on a 10 game win streak. Right now I'll be thrilled with a two game win streak after this Sunday's game!

lol I didnt know they were making longer videos than the tv spots.

Baker really needs to trust that our capable line will protect him and stay his tail right in that pocket. It has been a disaster (as of late) with him scrambling outside of the pocket. I get nervous every time he does it. He had happy feet while Wills was out. I think this will be his first game back with Wills since he went down in week 4. I would love to see a comfortable Baker for the first time since what seems like forever.

Mayfield hot takes
They sell as much as hot cakes
Opinions taste gross

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/31/21:

Patrick Mahomes
Kyler Murray

Mike White
Aaron Rodgers
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady
Joe Burrow

Matt Stafford
Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill

Water in Cali
Not injured like Mayfield
Can you send Browns some?

That should say a lot to anyone paying attention ... a guy who had competition percentages of 53%, 50%, 67% and 65% in college. For South FL and Western KY ... and has played 2 NFL games ... and you'd take him over Baker.

Are there better QB's than Baker? For sure. Are they playing with a broken humerus or torn Labarum ? Wonder how good they'd look? Wonder how happy their feet would look once their starting RT went down? Wonder how accurate they'd be in the game when their shoulder had to be popped back in? Guess we will never know.

Add in Cooper Rush!

Sorry, that was a typo. He should have been at the top of the list. I didn’t watch, but his stats were amazing in his first real playing time. I’ve seen enough.

i read all I need to

Same. Mike White > Everyone.

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/31/21 [revised]:

Mike White
Patrick Mahomes
Kyler Murray

Aaron Rodgers
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Trevor Siemian
Cooper Rush
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady
Joe Burrow
Matt Stafford

Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill

I put Siemian and Rush where I did because Wilson and Prescott are injured.

My two biggest issues with Bake are how long he holds the ball and how bad he is under pressure … and yes menZas I know all qb’s are bad under pressure but Bake is extra bad under pressure …

When Case played our wr’s magically got open much quicker than they do under bake … …. The apologists show there true colors with that defense ….

I’d also be interested to know how Bake compares to others in regards to 4th quarter play and how Bake in Q4 compares to Bake in Q’s 1 - 3 …

Feel free geeks …

I think the Case comment is reasonable - but it was a very small sample size. But it seemed to me watching Case - he reminded me a little of Derek Anderson in getting the ball out quickly. He made a pre-snap determination on where the ball was going to be thrown, 3 step drop and the ball was being thrown - NO MATTER WHAT. That quickly caught up with Anderson, defenses worked him out. While Case got the ball out quick vs Denver - he is more limited than Baker even with the injuries ... the question is do you want Baker throwing the ball to his pre-snap read no matter what? ... I actually think that needs to be in the playbook occasionally. Just like chucking up a bomb and hoping DPJ comes down with it. But you gotta live with the consequences if it goes sideways and it can't be predictable.

My biggest problem is that Ski refuse to move Bake . The kid has been dangerous on the move going back to his College days and early use here. I don' care for stick him in the pocket Ski. We have talked about it addeemed , but is don't like the empty back field either. They have disolved all the chemistry Higgens and Bake had by not keeping Hollywood on the field more. To add insult to injury ; His is all a very simple fix .. This is my story and I'm sticking to it // lol

I won’t even touch comparing Case to Derek … that’s like comparing John Riggins to Barry Sanders or Nolan Ryan to Gregg Maddox …

Case got rid of the ball quicker than Bake does cause Case made a pre-snap read and threw to it no matter what … …

Maybe just maybe Case makes good pre-snap reads and that helps him process info post snap much quicker than Bake …

Bake holds the ball to long, anyone that understands the game knows this … arch’s eye test is all u need to know that and I’m sure the stats confirm that ….

One thing I should have stated in my original post:

I’m happy with Bake as our QB … there are others I would take over him but Bake is slightly above average IMO and we could do much worse!

I'm going to beat the drum here again...but to add to your point rather than attempt to detract.

When things start to break down in the pocket, what do other supposedly-elite QBs have that we do not? The answer is a go-to guy with a trait that either gets him free of a defender or a trait that allows the receiver to go up and catch the ball or take it away from a defender. Someone he can count on. I think Landry is probably that guy he counts on...BUT...he's not a big WR and he's not exceptionally quick or fast. You aren't going to chuck a ball in his direction and expect him to out-run or out-muscle the defender.

How many times a game does K Murray, Mahommes, Burrow etc. just chuck up a throw? Who would Baker trust in those moments to make a positive play? The answer is Breshad Perriman. Ooops, he's not on the team anymore...neither has anyone like him...and hasn't been for years.

Somewhat to your point and to that of 888...Baker has to learn to throw the ball away when the do-do is hitting the fan. I absolutely think there should be plays - at times - where he simply goes to the first read regardless of what might develop elsewhere...but that dovetails with throwing the ball away at times. He wants to make the big play and misses out on a good play at times while doing so.

Coaching Baker to "take what's there" has to be meshed with his desire - AND ABILITY - to make the big play. I don't have the answer to that...but I have the question.

Ha. Seems like you want to bring your BS Politics anxst to the football forum. Have at it.

Just so we are clear I didn't say they were similar QBs. I said they throw the ball to their one pre-snap read. Sorry if that difference is too subtle for you to understand. If you disagree that's fine. I was at the Denver game and have not watched it since, I was relaying what it felt like when I was at the game.


twitter.com/EdGreenberger/status/1454919197029449731

Thought this was worth sharing for all the Baker haters. Baker played plenty well enough to win the game. Hopefully he continues that level of play.

Hmmmm … interesting points sir! … definitely food for thought … thanks for making me think, I need that right now …

eh, that's a tough pill to swallow since it is a sample size of one and that one was a VERY bad Denver. Still, there's probably something there, but it definitely needs some salt taken with it.

So then spit the pill out …. *L* ….

Are you saying Bake doesn’t hold the ball to long?

U have a point about my example but that doesn’t change my point one iota …

So do u disagree with my point or just my example?

I mean you can say "VERY bad Denver" but they're 4-4 (same record as us) and currently have the #4 ranked defense in the NFL (likely not going to last now that they traded Miller). Does that equal VERY bad? I dunno.

It wasn't going to last regardless, because that defense (and offense) has been ravaged by other injuries lately.

I think it does. Their four wins are teams with a combined record of 7-23. At 4-4, overall their opposition is 25-34. Besides that, I watched then live. Maybe not very bad, but a very firm "BAD".

Everyone’s QB rating goes down under pressure, but being the worst at it sucks.

But that’s the thing, i refuse to go with some peoples narrative that baker is a one read QB. We’ve seen bake at his best go through progressions and take care of the football. Posters seem to not like my take so far, but I think Stefanski has a choke collar on bake and is trying to turn him into just another Case or Kirk cousins. Bake is way better than that.

So what about last year then? Stefanski saw Baker play great within the system and said, “Enough of that.”

If your working theory is that Stefanski is changing/turning the scheme/plays on its head from what worked, and your question is 'why?', then wouldn't the only answer that makes any sort of sense be the injuries we've been sustaining (our QB who likes to take risks has a shoulder that's barely being held together and his Oline is super beat up).

Except the film shows different. Jake Burns has posted multiple videos throughout the season of guys running open downfield.

I think it’s possible those guys aren’t getting the ball because of Baker’s injury but let’s not pretend they aren’t there.

I didn’t say he was a one read QB … 2 years ago one of the things I said he needed to do was process info/ go through his reads quicker …. He has improved in that area but not enough IMO … he still holds the ball way to long IMO …

Thanks for not ripping my example … *L* …

I couldn’t agree less with Kev putting a leash on him … I’ve said what cfrs just did since i jumped into the fray here … cfrs just said it funnier than i do … *L* …

I heard zero complaints about Kev last year with what Bake did the last 8 games …. ZERO … now were losing and the apologists (not u) are making every excuse in the book including the one u agree with them on that its Kev’s leash ….

To almost quote cfrs … did Kev say enough of the last 8 games of last year, one interception is just to many?

That argument’s worse than my example … *L* …

I was actually thinking of Brian Hoyer not Anderson. Hoyer got the ball out quickly, and there was a reason... Leastways that was my take.

Not to detract from the point that Baker holds the ball too long because I believe that he does. But as was pointed out Baker was much better at rolling out and "making things happen, not only as a rookie but in the second half of last season. So who is this great WR we had last year that we don't have this year?


Breshad Perriman? He was here in 2018. He played in ten games. He had a grand total of 16 receptions in those 10 games. Not exactly the "go to guy". Memories can play tricks on us all.

I think all the double clutches we see indicate he holds the ball too long..

Pretty sure every stat I've ever seen about time taken to throw the ball shows Baker holds the ball for a long time. And yes the double clutches are part of that. So too we're some very slow developing plays earlier last season which KS addressed and changed. Sometimes his height plays a part too.

Thought this was interesting 4 those posters who say that betta isn't good enough

twitter.com/EdGreenberger/status/1454919197029449731

Last 2 drives, every throw.

I've been thinking about this... and similar stats that just seem not to fit what we're watching.
I really feel like one of the biggest problems is that we're never in a real rhythm offensively. We make those plays at the same rate but never seem to string them together.

Couple that with problems in the red zone, never executing on 4th down and making all the mistakes at the worst possible times and you have the 2021 Cleveland Browns.

I've been thinking about the offensive woes the last couple of days, and I think the issue is this; Baker is best at intermediate passes from ten to twenty/thirty yards and this run first play action offense is not using those longer throws to keep defenses honest. Teams are focused on stopping the run, meaning 8+ in the box at the snap most plays... that's a lot of defenders for the line to block and RBs to clear just to hit the second level. BUT it also takes away YAC in the short passing game. We got a lot of YAC last year, not so much this year. So, imho, to quick fix the O, we need to call more intermediate and long passes early. Come out like last year and throw a 60-yard bomb to DPJ, Shwartz, or OBJ (faster WRs) on the first play from scrimmage. And throw longer stuff early to clear defenses out of the box and keep them honest. Then we win.

So throw less efficient passes, that take longer to develop, with a QB that has his arm being held on by fabric?

That was my first though too, but it's the only real difference I can see unless we just forgot how to win and or our O was vastly overrated... So, without being snarky, what do you have to fix the O?

Have the offensive line play to their abilities and don’t have receivers drop crucial passes.

What do these stats show in week 8 thru 16 in 2020 after OBJ was no longer on the field?

A great question.

Your ability to miss the point is remarkable.

Maybe it's your inability to convey it.

100% this^

Someone else just posted above some stats about how we're still taking deep shots but just not connecting. Just because the stats may say we're taking the shots, it doesn't mean that this offense actually has a vertical component to it. If we had a legit vertical component to the scheme we'd see a helluva lot more of The Chief. There's something else I think many people aren't taking in to account in regards to Baker. How many times have we heard that our offense is going to take what the defense gives us? That is actually distinctly different from scheming to get who you want to be open and making the opposing DEF do what you want it to do. I watch Baker drop back, get 3+ seconds of and think to myself that just because you can get that much time, it doesn't mean you have to use it. Its like he's trying to figure out who's open after the snap and when you do that you can't guarantee you'll be looking in the right place at the right time. It's reacting not anticipating. It seems like he doesn't have a preset progression to go through for any given play. When's the last time we saw Baker look off a defender?

This offense needs to open it up and stop being so risk averse. This offense is a high end sports car. But instead of driving it in Track mode, its being driven in a safe, careful Grand Touring mode. I don't see any reason not to. Most of the remaining games are against playoff quality teams. May as well start playing like it already is the playoffs.

I was just thinking about a play from Baker's rookie year. Panthers game, drops back, slides away from pressure to his left. Absolutely zero panic. Eyes downfield. One of the best deep TD passes ive ever seen to Landry.

So much promise. So much to build off of. Yet so much regression. Meanwhile, Murray, Allen, Burrow, Jackson also flashed similar promise and have continued to ascend in an upward trajectory.

So crushing.

My take exactly. And it's either that, or they are playing the wrong scheme trying to power run with dink and dunk passes lets the opponents D concentrate players in or near the box. YAC have all but disappeared, and the receivers are getting murdered or trying not to... Baker used to go deep early and often to open up the run, they are trying to do that with ten yard passes now. So, it could be scheme or Ski wants Cousins 2.0.

Can you provide evidence that Baker went deep early and often last year?

rewatch the games.

Exactly, I will continue to post that Stefanski has turned Baker from a "Gunslinger" into a game manager. Now to be fair, I think that it was a necessary move the first half of 2020 due to the lack of practice, timing with the receivers, and some prior documented poor decision making. Unfortunately, the run game became so dominant Stefanski set up his scheme and has refused to adjust it back. More throws down the field like in 2019 combined with a potent run offense will start to light up the scoreboard. Defenses will have to start playing the Browns honest instead of packing the box for the run and the ding and dunk passes. Move Baker in the pocket - roll outs with flooded zones and deep seam routes. This will open up the running attack even more. Teach your QB how to close out games and for goodness sake - please develop a feared 2-minute offense! Baker is not Case or Cousins - quit trying to turn him into them and let him be the controlled gunslinger the Browns drafted #1. Think about this - 35 million per year for a QB to be a game control manager handing the ball off 35-45 times a game is not a sustainable Championship formula. It's time to see if we can have the gunslinger Baker of 2019 combined with the right decision QB of 2021. We'll never know if Stefanski doesn't adjust the scheme.

Look at the pass-catchers on those teams and get back to me.

We may have overhyped our corps, but I wouldn't trade them (except maybe for one). Our group is a talented that just need to get their head screwed back on straight.

You guys are funny...after 20 Years two decades of suffering - we finally get a franchise QB and we struggle as a team playing 4-4 with a lot of adversity and you wish to throw him to the curb.. Put those other QBs in the same environment and the production of those QBs would be different. Baker is a spread em no huddle type of QB very accurate and positive results, he has been put in a very conservative disciplined West Coast Offense predicated on one positive tool "THE PLAY ACTION PASS" But we have no space for an air attack if we get behind and way too often our scheme is to play very conservative with the lead which would work if we had a top 3 defense. We got some pieces but no where close to the gel of a top 3 defense. Also the media sold us fans a load of crap telling us how loaded we were in weapons. The only loaded advantage we had was in our running attack and our OL. Our top WR OBJ has yet to practice with the team. There is no team sport like football where you need the pieces to fit and work together OBJ simply has not applied himself to make that happen. Baker meanwhile has tried to work with him but there has always been an excuse mostly valid but still never the less there is no gel within the system nor with Baker. I've tried to say no when its been shown how well our offense works without OBJ but when I look back it simply is a true fact. Is Higgins and DPJones better than OBJ in talent...no way but well let me say this about talent.
JOSH GORDON" maybe the most talented WR there is but this is not a flag team where a great talent can simply walk on and do great things. OBJ is the most targeted Receiver this year for the Browns...I think 34 times??? That special something that one WR has with his QB just is not there. Baker has that with Landry and Higgins and this year DPJones they work well together and have production together.

I'm not happy with our coaching if I am unhappy about something. Why haven't we worked on our HOT reads there should be automatic routes ran on everfy blitz but I don't see that success out there??? WHY??? as a coach by now I would have these hot reads down and running smooth like a velvet glove. Not knowing stats but from views of what I see we are one of the most blitzed on team that I can see out there. That is why our screen passes are a thing of beauty cause in a sense its a route that is executed against a team over committing against our team. So that a screen pass is our best hot read schematic that we got even though its not designed specifically for that. Hopefully you all understand what I'm saying don't give me any crap about making excuses...I'm talking Browns football and my observations of what we have going out there. It is something that we have to work on - whether its a bomb or a slant I don't care it needs to be practiced over and over again so that when teams come at us with blitzes we make them pay.

We have one of the most accurate passers out there and we are not taking advantage of it. When I say accurate I'm not talking completion % but I'm talking about the placement of the ball so that the WRs get the ball in stride and without a break in action. We have that going. So when Stefanski tells OBJ to not bother coming to practice its comes at no surprise cause quite frankly when was the time he practiced anyways...its always DNP, DNP, DNP and then maypbe a L/P on friday. He is not Joe Thomas who did not miss a snap in 2 decades and who made the Pro bowl every year. He is not Joe Thomas who wrote the book on how to play LT so that in his last years would miss most of the practices. He is a WR who has yet to practice with the team.

Shame we did not trade him but we were trying to get this done so he would finally make an effort and become part of the team. Meanwhile note how this is being done AFTER THE TRADE DEADLINE so that he can get released and work a new contract out well I don't think Berry will play that game. either he plays hard for us or he doesn't play at all for us. After the year is done we will try to work something out. But I think without OBJ we can survive this year and win our division. Get into the playoffs and move on from OBJ, I so wanted it to work but we treated him as some Royalty and yet he did not contribute to the TEAM. This game Sunday is very big and we have to get our defense to control this game. Our team is starting to get healthy and we will be coming up to our bye week where we can heal the rest of the way and finish the season with a bang!

jmho

The Ravens are clearly worse. Kyler has Hopkins and a bunch of average dudes. Allen has Diggs and a bunch of average dudes. The Bengals look to be stacked.

Browns have just average dudes...

What has changed since the off-season when we thought we were deep at receiver?

What we thought we had was based on prior performance, what we know we have now is based on current performances.

That's right. And what we know now is an unclear picture because our QB is hurt.

QB is a little hurt, but able to play just fine when he has time.

The bigger problem, by far, is the OLine and its depth. I truly think people either forget or completely ignore that we were without our top 3 OTs for a bit, and are still missing two of those 3 and the one that we're not missing is still nursing an ankle, though he has, thankfully, progressed to where he is finishing games. All of that AND our Center has been on the injury report all season as well.

"The Union" has spent all season looking like a bunch of guys standing around watching other guys work, lol

One off season can change a man... I mean men.

I would also suggest counting the number of head coaches and offensive coordinators they have had

Can someone please change the name of this thread?

I still maintain that we are trying to get too many people involved on offense. Its why in the passing game we struggle to get a 100yrd pass catcher every weekend. I know some will talk about how OBJ draws so much attention, but when the opposing defense is putting 5,6,7+ in the box, and continue to do so throughout the game, its because they aren't afraid of any of your pass catchers. Its great we have so many options, but it seems like the goal is to get as many involved even if its only a couple receptions each versus looking to see which of your guys might have the hot hand that day and riding that horse as far as it'll take you. I guess the most obvious example to me would be Njoku this year.

The NFL is the ultimate chess game.

Stefanski is playing checkers.

I have never thought our receivers were that good. OBJ was our best and he's gone bonkers. Some here have even tried to convince me how good Landry is, but it's the same old story. He is incapable of being a #1. What I'm hearing is perhaps OBJ free lances and maybe sure he gets open and frustrated but that's not what the offense is calls for. The receivers are supposed to be somewhere and Baker throws there but the receiver is somewhere else.

I'm not an NFL quarterback but to me this seems to be the hardest thing to adapt to. You don't necessarily look for the open receiver, you look at the defense and throw where it should go. Baker has done this. If you throw and the receiver isn't there, it's going to be incomplete and look like a poor throw from the QB. Maybe it's more of a "short" QB thing. I read about Steve Young throwing to spots all the time and then just listening to the crowd to know what happened. He never saw half the plays he made.

If the receiver isn't there it makes the QB look bad to all of us. But it may be the receivers fault and we just don't know. I mean all quarterbacks miss throws and we don't harp on them, Baker misses one and we decide he's just not good. As far as OBJ and most fans anytime Baker misses a throw its always Baker's fault. But the short of it, perhaps the receiver didn't do what he was supposed to.

OBJ is very talented and a good receiver but if our receivers don't play the way it was drawn up and aren't where they to be, how would any QB ever trust them? Maybe OBJ just didn't fit this offense?

I have said it several times, our receivers are and have been overrated on this board.

Sometimes I wonder if those off-season get-togethers of Baker and receivers are counter-productive. Without a coach there to moniter things they may get a bit "off-script" with their route-running. Out-hyphen that dawgs!

I have felt for a while that Stefanski's biggest problem is that he outsmarts himself too often. The rest of the NFL is playing chess and he's trying to play quantum physics. How many times on 3rd and 2 or 3 where the whole playbook should be open, with maybe the best running game in the league, do we go shotgun empty backfield? Basically tell the LBs and safeties, "Hey, no need to respect the run, feel free to go straight into pass coverage." And... he does it in situations where he KNOWS he's going for it on 4th down anyway. How many times have we ever run the ball on consecutive plays, not on the goal line, with Chubb or Hunt and we didn't get at least 3 yards?

And I do tend to agree that Stefanski calls the game in such a way to get everybody some touches between all of the TEs, the few WRs, Chubb and Hunt... It's like nobody ever really gets into the flow of the game and starts "feeling it" because their touches are always limited and spaced apart. And just when somebody does make a series of good plays, they get taken out and don't get another chance for a couple more possessions...

I think he generally does a good job of keeping Chubb in the game even though he obviously wants to be throwing it, so I'll give him that.

But I'm not seeing us doing a good job of keeping our pass-catchers involved. If we were distributing, that would be one thing, but we seem to do this thing a lot where we forget about somebody, and then all of a sudden it's like, "oh yeah! he is out there." We've been doing this with Njoku a lot lately, and we've done it with Landry in the past. He's invisible and then we throw it to him and it works, so we keep throwing it to him.

Rumor has it (I trust other X/O gurus on here more than my own opinion) that the empty backfield results in the defense tipping the QB to coverage assignments and the defense they're running. In defense of Kev, it's become more commonplace to start in that formation and then shuffle a RB, who is usually lined up in the slot or out wide, back into the backfield. In our defense (you and I), it should happen nearly every time so that the defense can't eliminate half the playbook before the play begins.

To many personal groupings .. The O has bn out of synk in to many games .. Like DC said " Thinks TO much .. Love the guy a tom . but wish he would give AVP a shot at the play calling .. Run the team and handle situations like OBJ head on quicker .. Penalty problems , ect. , ect ... Spend a bunch of time with guys like Schwartz and Felton ..

Maybe it's time for a "Part V" thread...the post-Beckham experience.

Baker is 15th in pass completion percentage. Of course, that does not take into account drops. But then that applies to every other QB. Baker did very well last year which was great and, imo, should have made the coaching staff tweak the offense to take more advantage of him. That being said imo the schedule, the film available on the offense, the coaching staff and the FO not dealing with the OBJ issue have all contributed to the team underperforming against expectations. Throw in the injuries (I happen to think it is b.s. that Baker’s shoulder does not impact his performance) and you get what we have so far.

Post-Bengals game: I'm just fine with our receivers. And Baker. And Stefanski's play-calling. Well, except for the Landry option thingy...take that out of the playbook.

https://twitter.com/RichEisenShow/status/1457809397350993922

Bonefish posted this in the Post Game Thoughts .... I figured this was Baker centric enough to post here.

In all honesty we probably need a new thread for Baker - Post OBJ, and with a shoulder that seems to be hurting and hampering him less than the initial 2-3 games after it was first hurt.

I'm still a believer. I still think the times when Baker was bad, there were influences beyond himself that impacted his play. I think Rookie Baker gave you a glimpse of the potential. I think the last 2/3 of last season is what Baker is. During that time he was a top #4 QB in the NFL based on PFF grades/performance. I hope he gets back to playing like that for the remainder of this season.

Acho hit this one out the park. obj really was the deadweight. we looked unstoppable, and thats without hunt.

i guess i was a victim of the name recognition. i really thought OBJ would take this team over the top. wrong on that one.

and this is with baker not at 100%. i really like to see a healthy baker/landry/DPJ. and finally njoku is getting well deserved hype.

as long as we maintain this O/D line like some other teams seem to, we have a shot every year with the guys we got.

but i will push back a bit on the superstar WR not being need on our team. cause jarvis is a star, and DPJ has superstar written all over him while being a team first guy.

Bakers the guy. he gets us to the playoffs again this season and the contract extension should be automatic.

I think the word you're looking for instead of 'superstar' WR is 'diva' WR. Plenty of overlap between the two terms, but not necessarily the same thing.

I think there is a big difference between signing a FA star WR and drafting/developing one. In the Bengals game Baker passed to eight different players and nobody got more than three targets. That's a balance that requires competent WR's, not a superstar WR. The bottom line is I don't think we will be paying 15 million to a FA WR any time in the near future. Not while you're running the Stefanski system.

It doesn't make sense for the numbers and future income potential of a big production WR in the FA market and it doesn't make sense for us to pay a player that much $$$ to get limited targets in a system that spreads the ball around as much as we do.

I agree, and the interesting thing is I keep hearing the talking heads (Saturday, SAS, Keyshawn, etc.) and others talking about how spreading the ball around is due to Stefanski's system, and the system is limited by the QB and fails to adhere to a WR's strengths.

However, when you look at Mayfield's best performances - even in previous systems (Haley, Kitchens) - it is when he spreads the ball around. Why fix something that isn't broken so that you can get the ball to a guy like Beckham. Who cares? If you get the ball down the field and keep moving the chains and scoring, I don't care if the ball goes to Joe Schmoe, who runs a 8.9 forty.

I think the basis for the system is wonderful. When you spread the ball around it prevents the opposing defenses from focusing on one or two targets. They never have any idea where the ball is supposed to go. IMO it helps expand your offense, not limit it. It certainly limits the gaudy numbers we see some WR's get but not their strength. Their strengths are running routes and catching the ball.

I'm not one of those guys who is willing to blame OBJ for all of our woes. It's actually the QB's job to not get distracted by a single player to the point of creating a negative impact in his play. Each player is accountable for their performance on the field. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad OBJ is gone and Baker certainly seems to perform when OBJ is not on the field. I just don't buy into what some are selling that OBJ being on the field is a reasonable excuse for Baker playing like crap. But I'm a Browns fan, so whatever works and this seems to work.

Truth. OBJ free freelanced his patterns. I have hinted that on the board, I have said it on the board, now I am screaming it on the board. OBJ screwed us over. Plain and simple. The kid is talented beyond belief, BUT his ego is even bigger than his talent. He believes the world revolves around him and not the other way around. His lose is really not a loss at all.

My understanding is that OBJ is only due the veteran league minimum now that he's a free agent. I am certain that no team is going to sign him to a big deal so that could be a pinch point for any team wanting to sign him. Second and most importantly, if yu watch the Packers play, Rodgers is a QB that expects the rece3iver to be where he's supposed to be as he goes through his progressions. There's no way in hell OBJ stays on the field very long in GB if he thinks he's going to freelance his routes there. I've watched Rodgers go off on the #2 and #3 WR's when they are not where they are supposed to be and I've also watched guys who don't run the right routes get extended periods on time on the bench. That is not in OBJ's skill set to run what's expected so a marriage in GB could be even more messed up than it was in CLE. In a way, I want to see OBJ put in his place instead of everyone making excuses for him. Rodgers will do that you can bank on it!

Thanks for the confirmation. I think it was evident and all things pointed at that.

Wiley is a loud mouth fool. I watched Brady win for years spreading the ball around to average recievers. I agree Baker is no superstar QB, but when a QB can run an offense efficiently, and that wins games, that means he is good. The other problem I had with Wiley, is, when did Baker claim he was balling out, the way Wiley was describing it? When was baker bragging on his play? This is what I hate about these shows, they are just a bunch of smack talking used to be players. They are the reason kids in pop warner and high school are dancing on the field mand pointing at the name on their jerseys. Wiley's generation of players push the "look at me" mentality. They are the ones who create players like OBJ, who think about their own stats and popularity, over the concept of a team. Him, Shannon Sharpe, and countless others, are why I never watch these shows full of condescending has beens.

j/c...

Yeah and according to OBJ it was Eli's fault and now of course it's Baker's fault.

Bye Bye poison have fun ruining someone else's season, and offense.

j/c:

I agree. There's nobody left to blame for his play but himself. Until they come up with yet someone else to blame for it.

I’m starting to wonder if this will turn into a little game between the FO and Baker. Baker has already started saying “I’m beat up, we’ll see if I can go next week” stuff. Today, Stefanski says he “likes where he’s at” …

Baker knows he’s costing himself money right now. Maybe the FO wants him to continue playing because of that now.

Well, if that's the case, which I don't think it is, then he should be chomping at the bit to play against the Lions, not threatening to not play... they are near the bottom in yards and points allowed.. if there was a game where he could show out, this would be it.

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 11/15/21:

Patrick Mahomes
Kyler Murray

Aaron Rodgers
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady
Joe Burrow

Matt Stafford
Mac Jones
Justin Fields
Matt Ryan
Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill

Teddy Bridgewater
Jalen Hurts
Carson Wentz

Well you wanted to take Mike White 2 weeks ago ... you didn't see him play, you saw his stat line.

I'd say that at this point you definitely don't qualify as fair and balanced regards to Baker. Do I need to go back and check to see if you had Sam Darnold on the list 2-3 weeks ago as well? Thankfully you aren't the GM on the Browns.

I think you think that I think this is a serious exercise. I think that you don’t know when a joke hit you in the face.

Keeping it real for a moment, with him so banged up, we'll be better off with Keenum in this game I think. Imagine team management might think the same.

I think you put too much effort and time into your list for it to be funny - I think you have to have a bias and a preset angst against Baker to put Mike White on the list and think it's funny, or clever. I think I read enough of your posts on Baker to place you in the "would prefer Baker fail so poster can be right, than to see Baker succeed" .

Riz and others seem to relish in failure. Nothing is stated when Baker has a good game.

After a loss every post is about how Baker sucks. Baker lost the game. None stop on every topic like they can not wait to post about how Baker is so bad etc. etc.

Frankly, I do not understand not supporting the team and Baker. That type of fan I would never watch a game with - never.

I mean seriously why bother being a fan? If everything is all about how we will lose and this sucks. Go shovel snow you will at least get some execise.

I am a Browns fan. I don't care about any other team. I watch the Browns games hoping to see victory. Sure I am disappointed when we lose.

I will say when a player has a bad game or the coach was out coached. But I still support them. I know how hard it is to win.

I see quarterbacks like Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, chucking sky balls and praying for an answer. And never hear a peep. But if Baker throws a pick. He is the worse qb in football history.

Before Baker was drafted the Browns were hard to watch. Losing was an every week expectation. 500 play was an unreachable goal.

Baker gives us a chance to win. He is far from perfect. But I have news for the haters he is good enough to win a Super Bowl with. That is my goal.
If the team plays well. Baker has enough to win. I have seen him play at the highest level. I have seen him make throws as good as any quarterback.

Baker does not make the game plan or call the plays. He runs the plays that are called. He is dependent upon many to do their job.

Football is a team game with many elements that determine the outcome.

I cheer for the Browns and support them. I do not watch games hoping that certain players fail.

Want to break my thinking on Baker down and just put it out there.

Is baker a franchise QB? Yes. A franchise QB is the face of the franchise and usually proven to be competent to better than average (not perfect) at the position.

Is Baker elite? No. He has shown many promising flashes but has been extremely inconsistent in his performances.

Is it the injuries? Yes and No. The injuries are real and to some degree they must be hampering the overall quality of his play. However, Baker has said they are not affecting his play, which is what he has to say to stay on the field but leaves us either taking his word or doubting his truthfulness.

Is it time to panic or move on from Baker? Hell no. First, do y'all forget what it was like looking for the guy for 20+ years? All the wasted draft capital for year after year of horrid QB play? We've seen he can be damn good; we just need it more consistently and we can work with that. We've seen that he excels in some situations and not in others. We can work with that via game planning/scheming. But overall, his ability to respond in highly adverse games is as suspect as it gets. Is this a confidence issue? A coaching issue? or a Baker issue? And can we work with it going forward? I think so, but really need more data to see the root cause.

How do we adjust this year? Assuming Baker is the only issue to fix, you have to cater to his strengths more. We know he can throw the intermediate and long ball well most of the time, and that the shorter field on PA dink and dunk is killing us. We stretched the field last year and our 50/50 mix of pass/run plays kept Ds honest, we should do more of that. Dumbing down the playbook and playing all out smash mouth basic ball is what we did last year to turn things around, so go back to the basics too. And we designed a nice variety of trick plays, focused on getting the ball out fast, and unleashed the players to play all out while keeping/holding each responsible for their own jobs. I don't see why that wouldn't work here and now, even actually thinking it's what we need to right the ship.

Should we draft another QB? Yes. We should always draft QBs if they are good value picks. I don't think we need to focus on replacing Baker and force the search by shipping him. He's the best we've had since the return. We should stick with him and let the FO draft potential starters in latter rounds or where the draft capital is most wisely spent on a QB. Do this with the idea that Baker is the guy until we have a better option ON the roster outperforming him. And if a generational talent like Manning comes along, you take them if you can. But they are rare, so the hot buckeyes QB of the year is probably not the best option. Just my 2 cents.


EDIT: I also think this is the way to land our own Herbert type QB of the future. When you have that guy on the team, then you deal Baker if needed, not before.

I think my outlook on the fQB question is very similar to yours. There are some on here who have a VERY short list of who can be considered a fQB. Limited only to a subset of HOF guys. That's neither realistic/helpful, nor is it true. The Flacco repsonse to that was spot on.

My definition of a fQB is very different from that... bar is much lower. Simply put, it's a guy you can win with, in that he doesn't hold the offense back. The QB still has to be 'good', but it highlights the fact that the QB position is different things to different teams. For some, the QB IS the offense... whereas for other teams like us, it's a bit more complicated than that.

That said, I think via that definition Baker IS our franchise QB, though I can certainly see why people would have arguments. The tough part with people's arguments would be what plan you have in place if he were to be gone. It's easy enough to simply say "he's not the guy, we gotta move on" like specific posters like to do... but then what? Baker is better than the vast majority of people we could get/draft, and we have nobody in the pipeline right now. This upcoming offseason is shaping up to be far more dramatic than I think anybody realized.

Great post Oober. A lot of people need to change their underwear on the board.

It sounds like you want to have an open relationship with Baker.

This goes back to what I said in the thread. I think the term is actually meaningless from a football production standpoint. A “face of the franchise” is essentially marketing. That may be good or bad but is irrelevant to production. I agree that getting the guy and winning with the guy has a variety of variables that must work together to make the guy successful. Baker has been better than anybody we have had since 1999. Yes, he has had ups and downs but that does happen to the vast majority of QBs so it really, in and of itself, is not the problem. The injuries to Hunt and Chubb have played a big role as has, imo, the offensive scheming and lack of adjustments. That is on the coaching staff. Do I think Baker will become truly elite? Probably not. But we don’t need that necessarily. And I agree to draft a QB as having someone besides a retread in waiting is a good idea.

I think you are correct that a few do have a bias against Baker. I do however think there are others that have a legitimate concern. I certainly have been a supporter of Bakers. I'm also one who is certainly hoping he succeeds. I have been however getting tired of every excuse made when Baker plays badly. I thought Bakers injury was a reason for some of his struggles. But many fans said no, it wasn't. Then we saw his performance in Cincy and he sure didn't seem like a QB being hampered by injury.

There's no real way to get around the legitimate concerns when it comes to Baker. Calling people bias and haters will not explain away what we've been seeing. Our O has scored less than 21 points in six of our games this season. Baker has days when he looks great. Last season he seemed to string those performances together in a meaningful way. That's not what we've been seeing this season. Maybe it does have something to do with the injury. But if that injury is bothering him to the point he looked like crap this week, it sure didn't seem to bother him last week. And nobody could possibly be hoping they're wrong about what they've been seeing any more than I am.

For me, it's really starting to come down to 1 thing...

If a D is going to sell out to stop our run game, then our QB absolutely MUST make them pay. I have to watch the game again to make sure, but I think I saw the Patriots sell out vs the run and then straight up not get exploited for that. I need to confirm this is what I saw and start trying to see why. But, long story short, if a defense's gameplan is to take away our run game and plan on our QB not making them pay for it, then it becomes clearer where the problem might be.

I think we all are. We all like a fresh loaf of sourdough or a nice brioche hamburger bun.

There is no question that there have been games when he was bad.

The Pats game the whole team stunk. On defense we could not get off the field. So, offensive chances were limited.

The offensive scheme is based upon the run and play action off that. When we deviate; it appears things go wrong.

When the offense is in rhythm we play well. I wish I could put my finger on why the inconsistency.

One would think that when you can run the ball like we can that we would be consistent. It has not happened this year.

The second half of last season. The offense looked good. That is why it is so baffling. We have executed this offense well.

The loses this year. We gave up 33, 47, 37, 15, 45.

The Steeler loss was inexcusable.

I know the route trees are timed to the drop steps. When the receivers are not open. It goes sour fast. We are not an offense that runs three and four receiver sets where the quarterback sits in the pocket scans, and waits to hit the open guy. A good day passing is 200 to 250 yards. And we get another 150 yards running the ball. I am good with that.

It seems like a lot of the plays we ran last year like naked boots are gone. Baker can be deadly accurate. I have seen him connect and hardly miss a throw.

It is up to the KS and AVP to figure it out.

I understand the defense has also been sporadic at best. Really no better than the offense in that regard. And I certainly do not hold the offense responsible for poor defensive performances. I pretty much have a standard that is equal for both sides of the ball. If the offense doesn't score at least somewhere between 21-24 points, I feel it is a failure on that units performance. I feel that if the defense gives up more than somewhere between 21 and 24 points it's a failure on the defensive unit. Those standards may not be the way most people see it and I can understand that.

It is certainly true that football is a team sport that relies on both sides of the ball to do their jobs. I could use examples of how the defense saved the O's ass by us winning the Falcons game scoring only 19 points. Or the Vikings game we won while only scoring 14 points. Or the Denver game where we only scored 17 points. Or I could point out that even the fact that the defense gave up 37 points against the Cardinals, it doesn't change the fact that the O only scored 14 points. But that would only detract from making each unit responsible for what they control.

I think a lot of the offensive inconsistency can be directly attributed to the quality of the defenses that the team played against.

Worst games offensively:

1. Minnesota - very knowledgeable regarding Stefanski and scheme he runs.
2. Arizona - prior to this past week - one of the better Ds in the NFL and had Watt back then.
3. Pittsburgh - pretty good D, particularly against the run.
4. New England - good D. very good secondary and backers to lock down the very average Browns receivers. good against the run. very disciplined and adjust to take away what opponent does well offensively.

Have to game plan better...

This is basically where I'm at. I'm struggling to throw any 'hot takes' out there and point fingers at anyone because it was all just so bad. Not gonna win giving up 45, and also not going to win only scoring 7. STs was alright (?). Certainly not any 1 thing or even 1 unit that you can put at the top of list of reasons we lost.

It's definitely difficult to come here and read the negativity. I get tired of reading the same things over and over and some of them simply aren't true.

I hate losing as well.

Baker isn't going anywhere. There isn't a quarterback not named Mahomes that I do not want over Baker. I firmly believe that this organization is 100% behind Baker and we have no intentions of moving on from him.

I do think Baker has played poorly at times. But he's also been phenomenal. I HATE reading and continually having to defending Baker can't carry a team when he absolutely already has.

There are things that guy has done that quarterbacks like Goff, Bridgewater, Keenum, Darnold, Tannehill, or even Burrow can't or haven't done. I may be alone, but he CAN be ELITE!

I'm 100% riding with 6. We haven't come close to seeing his ceiling. Game managers don't have have rocket arms, so stop that nonsense right now.

I'm not making excuses, Baker has played poorly, but I was wrong on OBJ, he wasn't who I thought he was. And our pass catchers are some of the worst in the league. I do believe DPJ is close, he can be a star, but Schwartz has been underwhelming (but he's a rookie!) and don't get me started on Jarvis.

Do those who criticize Baker, did they do the same with Kosar back in the day? Because Baker is better. Kosar never won for Cleveland. And if you weren't around back in the day, how in the heck after the past 25 years want to get rid of the best guy we've had at QB after suffering thru years and years of losing and crap QB play? It's almost disgusting and embarrassing.

Baker will be fine. Baker can win a Super Bowl. Baker WILL win us a Super Bowl. Do not loathe him. Support him.

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Not really.

How soon some will forget we were 1-31 then Baker came and changed everything.

""How soon some will forget we were 1-31 then Baker came and changed everything.""

Are you trying to suggest any average NFL QB couldn't have done the same thing? Especially with such talent as Perriman and Calloway as our WRs (along with Landry)? Not forgetting Ratley, Higgins and Willies of course ....

My list of players I's swap Baker for is a bit longer than yours. Ignoring the QB's like Rodgers and Brady who have 1 or 2 more elite years and focusing on young studs: Allen, Murray, Herbert and Burrows are all viable franchise studs in the making. I'm happy to ride with Baker and believe what we saw the last 1/2 of last year is who he is with potential to be even better. But I also believe there are others in the NFL with similar ability and ceilings.

Settling for mediocrity because you used to be terrible does not seem wise.

I am so torn regarding Baker. He would not have been my choice to draft that year just because I thought he was cocky with no reason to be (Buckeye fan and hated the flag plant) but I am not a talent evaluator. I leave that for you guys with actual football experience. I have been to a few games and talked to area coaches but most of what I know iis from 51 years of studying TV and reading. Once we drafted him I was in full support.

I think he has exceeded my expectations because of our poor performance before he arrived but my biggest issue is he seems like 2 different players.

Case in point the last 2 games. I watched him play extremely well against the Bengals. 3 throws in particular stand out. The deep ball to DPJ, the touchdown to Njoku & the best I thought was the pass to the sideline to Harrison. He placed that over the defender so only Harrison could catch it.

He also looked spot on the first drive last Sunday. Then the offense just died. I really don't know what to think. I love his intensity and competitiveness. His arm strength is way more than sufficient.

I really hope he gains consistency and stays a long time but he has my support. I also don't want to go through a QB search again.

Just my 2 cents.

Valid and understandable.

I think that Baker is a talented kid, with major injuries that have thrown him for a loop.

Shoulder muscles torn ....... injured knee, and now an injured foot. That all has to take a toll, especially against a Belichick coached team.

Our WR are not consistently getting open, and when they do, Baker is missing. I have seen him miss throws over the past month or so that I have seen him make many times before. I think there are some throws that he double clutched because he's not sure he can get enough on the throws.

The OL is performing about as well as can be expected with a beat up Wills at LT, and a Guard playing RT.

RB has been a nightmare. Take out Chubb, Hunt, and Felton, and you take out about half the offense.

The defense is a major nightmare. They go from being a nightmare for the opposing offense, to a nightmare for our team. They are even more up and down than the offense.

One of the most disappointing things in the last game was that almost every defensive starter played. No excuse for a lack of talent, or the lack of effort I saw on some (many) plays.

I think that there are some correctable things, and some that are going to take time to heal. I think the bye will be very interesting.

This comparison of Baker to Jim McMahon is pretty good. At least for who Baker seems to be right now.

There's no settling for mediocrity. I don't believe another drafted QB would have gotten the Browns this far. The Patriots defense has made many quarterbacks look foolish. Brady and Herbert included. Their defenses were actually able to stop the opposing team, ours didn't.

I also don't believe a different quarterback would have us with any better record than we have now.

We do not have good pass catchers.

There are actual real problems on this team and QB isn't one of them. Baker is not mediocre. He's much much better than that. I'm not worried about him.....yet.

That was a little gas lighting from crfs - no-one who believes in Baker is accepting mediocrity.

When you wrote 'we don't have good pass catchers' ... it made me think. We do have good pass catchers. Occasionally. The issue is consistency.

I'm giving Landry a pass the last two games - he, like Baker has most definitely been hurt and it has influenced his play. It's the ONLY time in a Browns uni that he has avoided contact with a DB and stepped out of bounds. While I know you don't rate him at $15M per year - he's been the best WR the Browns have had since he arrived and he (pre-injury) bled for the Browns and played tough for the Browns and caught (virtually) everything.

The rest of the group - TE's and WR's - have all been somewhat inconsistent, or very inconsistent. Njoku looked to have turned the corner on that, but the last 2 - 3 games has dropped balls and reverted back to what we saw rookie year. Hooper and Bryant are probably the next most reliable options after Landry. I like them both, but they are not Waller, Kittle, Kelce types and you can't run your offense through solid but unspectacular athletes. Higgins had some chemistry with Baker but for some unknown reason he has not thrived or been included much in the KS offense. Receiver is a position Berry very much has gone against the grain of the NFL and decided not to invest high draft capital into. . . the result is showing. I think he needs to change his stance.

IMO Berry and Stefanski along with AVP believe in Baker.

The options mentioned I don't think are real. If they really are would I look at Wilson? Sure I would.

Rodgers? I don't believe he is an option. Watson? That picture is so clouded. Until what is now unknown becomes known. You can't even go there.

Baker is good enough to win with. He has shown enough IMO to prove that.

Has there been inconsistencies? Yes. If McMahon, Trent Dilfer and Joe Flacco can win a Super Bowl. So can Baker.

It is so hard to find a quarterback and develop them. Look at all the draft picks that have come into the league with high praise. Can't miss guys who failed.

One year wonders. The position is so dependent upon others. The skill level to be great is so hard to achieve.

Of all the teams the Browns should know better than anyone.

Completely disagree. If they did, he would have been extended. He is not and they, so far, are smarter as a result. This is not to say they want to move on, but they clearly needed more from him to "believe". They are not getting what they wanted to see from Baker so far to justify franchise QB money. None of us are, really.

This situation seems to be very similar to the one the Rams had with Goff. Baker has been able to get us to a certain point but another QB might be able to take us to an even better place. If you can upgrade at the position you have to pull the trigger. With that said there likely won’t be an upgrade available so Baker is likely the guy for one more year.

The only guys that might be available that are clear upgrades are Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, and DeShaun Watson. Obviously I would take all three over Baker but the compensation required to get them would make it a tough pill to swallow given their baggage (Watson) or age (Rodgers). I’d give up the farm for Russell Wilson but I don’t see how this situation would be better than Seattle.

And they don’t want to be stuck with an onerous contract like the Eagles and Rams were.

Are there 'reasons' for a decline in Mayfield's play?

Many prefer to ignore the possibility of there being 'reasons' that might have contributed to the poor play at the QB position. But when a franchise has their rabbit ears on, listening to folks who do not have a clue as to what legitimate 'reasons' might have contributed to the poor play...getting another QB thinking that will solve the issue of poor offensive play might be in for a surprise.

If the 'reasons' for the Browns poor offensive performance are not addressed, the next QB is going to be forced to deal with the very same reasons that Mayfield faced. If the Cleveland franchise is willing to make some changes in an effort to eliminate the reasons for the Browns poor offensive performance in 2021, why not make those same changes to improve the performance of the Browns offense in 2022?

There are reasons for the Browns poor offensive performance and they need addressed asap!

Is it a decline (can we call it that)? Not sure if it's a positive or a negative, but Mayfield has been more up-and-down over his career so far, with no real discernable trend. Again, I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad.

I'm not giving my ultimate opinion one way or the other. I'm at a loss at how Mayfield (and the offense and whole team) can look unbeatable vs a very good Cinci team and then look like they're going to hand Detroit their first win the next week. I have absolutely no explanation for that.

I think it's easy to guess how much a coaching staff and organization "believes" in a player. Most organizations wouldn't publicly state they don't believe in their players. Especially at the QB position. At this point in time, is there actually another QB on the roster that has more legitimate talent than Baker? So who else are they going to "believe" in?

Where you actually find out whether, or how much they "believe" in their QB is when the rubber meets the road. Contract time. By seasons end and most certainly during the off season we will find out just how much they believe in Baker. They will either show their confidence in him by offering him a legitimate franchise QB contract extension, pick up his fifth year option or give him a low ball extension offer. If you actually believe you have the QB of the future, you want to show him your loyalty and get him locked up long term. You offer to pay him the big bucks.

If all you do is pick up his fifth year option it makes it clear you need to see more before you make your final decision. If you give him a low ball offer it means you're really not concerned if he goes elsewhere, you upset the apple cart in the two sides getting along and means the future at the QB position is very much up in the air.

What I try to keep in mind at all times is that an NFL team is a corporation. They do not want dirty laundry aired. They want to put forth an image that everything is great and they are a cohesive unit. Public perception is very important to the bottom line. It's why fans are often surprised by players who get cut or never get a contract extension. It's because sometimes we just never see it coming.

It's like Myles speaking out of school. Most of us agree with what he said. Yet nobody in this organization other than maybe some of the players wanted that statement to be made in public. It shows cracks between the team and the coaching staff. It shows there is a division. No NFL team wants things like that made public and players shouldn't be making them public. It's not professional.

Keeping Baker is a no brainer at this point. First, the franchise QB's mentioned in these posts would never consider coming to Cleveland due to the head coach and scheme that he runs. Rodgers, Wilson, or Watson are not going to leave their current situation to come to a team where their main duty is to hand off the ball 60% of the time. None of the 3 are going to accept throwing 20 passes a game while watching the defense surrender 30 plus points! These QB's depend on rhythm and timing and you don't establish that throwing the ball for 200 yds with 20 passes spread sporadically throughout the game. Your receivers are not involved, timing is a joke, and not having a go to guy just solidifies none of them coming here. The vast majority of the teams in the NFL use the pass to set up the run. Cleveland is just the opposite. Those franchise QB's not only make opposing offenses play straight up, they burn them when they don't. If you try to play 6 DB's against them they will punish you with the run. If you try to play single safety they will punish you with crossing routes and the long ball. These guys would never consider coming to Cleveland with the scheme the Browns currently run.

Now Minnesota runs a similar type offense and they win games but not championships. The Browns are going to win games but the issue is becoming more prevalent each week - stack the box to stop the run and force the Browns to beat you through the air. In Baker, the Browns have developed a pretty good game manager who completes a lot of passes that really are nothing more than an extension of the run game (dink and dunks). Baker is currently a shell of the player the Browns drafted because he's become a game manager instead of the gunslinger they drafted. The biggest problem I see is two-fold - first, if your not practicing a pass centric offense and fierce 2-minute drill then you are unprepared to turn it on when needed and two, the inability of Stefanski to make game time adjustments depending on what the other team is doing to you. However, if your not practicing the adjustments, then there's nothing to adjust too.

Baker will be fine when Stefanski learns how to coach a complete team. Look, when your defense surrenders 21 points in the first quarter and your offense comes out and has a 3 and out with 2 runs and a dink pass you are a very unprepared team. You have to be able to adjust your team to the situation facing you and that doesn't mean sticking to a game plan where the opponent has practiced all week to stop.

The Browns need an offensive coordinator to run the offense and get Stefanski back to managing the team in the Head Coach capacity. The change needed here is the scheme and until that happens the Browns will continue to have those stinker games like they did against the Pats. They've given away 4 games so far and laid a stinker in another for 5 losses that shouldn't have been but unless there's a change, expect more of the same the rest of the year and beyond.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on your first point. If there's anything the last couple weeks has shown about this team, it's that they are willing to pay for a guy that they see as "core". They got the guards locked down, and they got Chubb locked down before that.

What muddies the water a bit is that while they haven't seemed to move on Baker's extension, they also haven't done anything to prepare for his exit. They either needed to start grooming a guy yesterday, or have been accumulating draft assets to jump up or use to pry a vet away from a team. As far as we know, they've done none of that. Not saying they need to get a guy now, I'm just saying that you start walking the path to your new fQB long before he ends up on the roster.

Actually I've considered that. I'll use a statement in your post and add to it. " they also haven't done anything to prepare for his exit."... as of yet.

Now I'm not trying to make a prediction here. I have no idea what's going on behind closed doors. But if in fact they do not see Baker as the long term future at the QB position, there is still a very viable move they could make. Baker is stuck with the Browns having a fifth year option on his contract. If the FO wishes to hold Baker here for one more year they can. That leaves them this years draft to address getting a QB and giving him a year to develop before putting him on the field. That doesn't mean they have to leave the drafted QB on the bench the entire season but it's the teams option.

I know people might say then what would motivate Baker to play well? It's because he would have a one year window to prove his value to other NFL teams.

I don't want anyone elses hair to catch on fire so once again, this is not something I propose happen or that I'm supporting. But I do think it's a reasonable option for the team to follow if they decide Baker isn't the answer.

NFL has this video blocked, but it's eery...

Oh, I hear you. Hell, they could come out tomorrow and say they're trading for Wilson or whoever and had been working on it for months, for all we know.

But to get something like that done would require a LOT of assets. To me, this doesn't seem to be a group that would sign off on giving away their next few drafts. I dunno... I just feel (emphasis on feel) that the limited data points we have point to them being more on board with Baker than not... if for no other reason than because chances of them upgrading are very very low.

The question is do we handoff 60% of the time because of the QB?

Also, what changed since last year to make our scheme/playcaller worse?

I don't think it would take a vast amount of assets if they thought they could draft a better replacement. Not saying they believe that. But you seem to be indicating they would use a vast amount of assets in a trade. My assertion is they wouldn't trade but instead draft a replacement. And no, I have no idea if they think that or who their target would be. It's my hope that we start getting a more consistent Mayfield and we never have to cross that bridge. Bit as of this moment I certainly wouldn't be considering a long term, high investment deal with Baker if I were in their shoes. My strategy would be that I would have to see him for another season and have someone waiting in the wings just in case. The fifth year option would be my call.

My guess is that the majority of this board thinks we abandon the run waaay too often.

If you go back and look at the Vikings when Stefanski started to make a reputation for himself in 2017 with Keenum, he was a game manager, averaging about 236 ypg, then with Cousins it was about the same, 240ish yards per game for 2 years when he was the QB coach and then as the OC. He doesn't want an offense that runs through the play of the QB, he wants efficient, but not spectacular play, from his QB. In a league where half the QBs average over 250 ypg, Stefanski has never had one that did. Since Stefanski left, Cousins has been averaging 260-270 ypg.. granted the Vikings aren't winning as many games though. The one year he had an offense break into the top 10 in the NFL in yards was 2019, when the Vikings were 8th, but they were 6th in the NFL in rushing and about 23rd in passing.

His offense just isn't designed to be dynamic, it's designed to be methodical.... which is why, IMHO, when methodical isn't working and/or his teams fall behind, there is no switch to flip that makes it more dynamic. In 2019 when they were 11-7 (counting 2 playoff games), the Vikings had 1 come from behind victory... all of the rest of their wins were just like ours, where they would build a lead early and sometimes they would win comfortably, or the other times the opponent would start to come back and they would just try to hold on. If they fell behind early, they lost. Even in the comeback win where they scored 3 TDs in the 4th quarter, Cousins had 2 passes greater than 10 yards, one a bomb to Diggs for a TD and one a dump off where the guy ran for 32 yards and a TD.. so he really completed 1 pass where he threw the ball farther than 10 yards in a 20 point 4th quarter comeback.

Now, I'm not saying all of this as a negative against Stefanski, it's just who he has proven himself to be, so take it for what it is... we are having a big debate about "franchise QBs", I'm not saying Stefanski doesn't "want one", I'm just not sure he would allow one to develop. Almost all of the other QBs on the list in that thread are in the 270+ish range for ypg and almost all of them have seasons where they were closer to or over 300 ypg... I don't think Stefanski would let that happen.

Or does Stefanski have a QB who can’t read a defense and throws into double coverage when a defense disguises its coverage?

JMHO, you can't change much how big you are, nor after four years are you going to improve much over what you've been.
Mayfield won the Heisman at Oklahoma-in the Big 12. He was highly successful, but got drafted at 1 due to that performance. If you had choice between Murray or Baker, which would you take TODAY- I'd take M, how about comparing Mayfield to Bengals B...I'd take B....Mayfield has shown what he can do AND can't do. He wasn't smart enough to let someone else tackle, he's a tough small guy, who isn't that athletics. I would draft a new QB and would not invest huge money on Baker. He's a multimillionaire now, no tears for him. NFL- not for long. I'm very happy we invested in our linemen....but the talk of 17-0 sure has changed. Covid and injuries have derailed this year. I want a bigger, more athletics QB who knows his job is not to tackle. Go Browns!!!!

Every QB throws into double coverage when being fooled. You cannot name one QB that hasn't multiple times. However, disguising the defense needs to be read by the QB but you learn that from experience and you're not going to see all their tricks if you're handing the ball off 60% of the time and 50% of your passes are going 5-6 yds downfield. Real game experience has to be the point of the learning curve. Drafting another QB, signing a high level free agent, or staying with Baker has no bearing on win totals or performance if the proposed QB's are given no more latitude than to be game managers in a run first scheme with dinks and dunks. As stated, Stefanski's history shows he wants a controlled game and that includes a dink and dunk pass scheme. If he won't change for Keenum, Cousins or Baker you can bet your azz he isn't going to change for some rookie and like I said, "NO HIGH LEVEL QB WOULD EVEN CONSIDER COMING TO CLEVELAND as long as they stay with the current scheme. If you want a more big play QB then the scheme has to change. If you're going to change the scheme for a big name then why not do it now so the Browns can see what type of QB they really have under contract. Just a thought ...................

1. There have been throws downfield available all year.
2. This is Baker’s fourth year, how much more game experience does he need?

Reading some of the replies on here it sounds like some believe that Stefanski has forbid Baker to throw to an open WR if he's more than 10 yards downfield. Because they've been there and they've been open. It must be Stefanski's fault.

I do not disagree.

In another thread I stated we will find out soon meaning after this season ends.

However, when I watch press conferences and "Building the Browns."

And listen what is said and the manner it was stated regarding Baker.

My intuition tells me they feel "this is their guy." I could be wrong but it is my interpreptation.

Finding someone else is really hard. The draft is really a crap shoot. Free agents not realistic.

Trades? Watson is a good quarterback. But that is so sticky.

Wilson? Sure I would love to get him. But why would Seattle do that? I don't see it.

The options are so limited. Baker IMO is the best gamble. He has shown enough that imrovement from him will most likely be better than anything else available.

The most logical/realistic path is keeping Baker for 2021 and letting him play out his fifth year option with a competitive backup on the roster. Drafting a QB doesn’t make sense based on where we are at as a team and where we will be drafting (somehow the Chiefs struck gold doing this). If a high quality does become available to us then we need to take the shot. Being stuck in the middle is the worst spot to be in.

I certainly do not have the answer here. And I understand why you would feel that way. As of now I don't see a clear cut answer either way. As it pertains to Building the Browns, it's a nice, feel good piece of public relations to show the fans exactly what they want the fans to see. But it's nothing more than that. I don't take PR seriously because I know it's about image and not actual content.

Case in point. From watching Building the Browns nobody would have expected Myles to come out questioning the defensive coaching staff the way he did. Because they paint everything as rosy.

It is hard to find a good QB and it's all a crap shoot. But if and when they make a decision that Baker isn't the answer, you don't simply stick with what you think is broken because of the fear of moving forward. I have no idea what they're thinking. But if they pick up his fifth year option instead of extending him it will be a clear indication they're not sold on baker.

For me it's a wait and see game as to how they feel about Baker. I'll follow the money.

Baker has played 27 games with Stefanski...

2 games with 2 INTs
9 games with 1 INT
16 games with 0 INTs

Maybe only a few teams in the NFL make an attempt to disguise their coverage?

I was referring specifically to the INT in the Patriots game.

I'm saying the Browns don't play a vertical game. Second, how many of those openings downfield were the actual route expected? I've seen numerous times Baker has pointed or conversed with a player for not running the planned route. AKA, why there's no more OBJ. Here's some stats that might help refute Baker's throws:

Baker has the 8th best QBR in the AFC at 95.7 thru the first 10 weeks.
Baker is 11th in the AFC in completion percent at 65.4% (the conference best is currently only 69.2%)
The Browns receivers have dropped 10 passes thru 10 games. If half of those were caught, Baker would be a top 5 AFC QB for completion percentage.
Baker has only attempted 246 passes this season ranking him 13th in the AFC out of 16 teams. In comparison, every AFC QB in the top 10 has over 300 attempts, top 5 over 330 attempts and top 2 over 350 attempts.
For those of you that say Baker is missing open downfield receivers, Baker is 3rd in Pass Yards/Attempt at 8.09 yards only trailing Carr @ 8.14 on 347 attempts and Burrow @ 8.73 on 286 attempts.

Just an FYI, Baker's Pass Yards/Attempt of 8.09 yards is higher than Rodgers 7.41, Brady's 7.61, and Cousin's 7.18.
For attempts though, Baker is 26th out of 32 in the league at 246. Mahomes leads at 412 (166 more attempts through 10 weeks)

So the two questions are: 1) How do we know how good Baker can be if we don't let him throw the ball? 2) If we make a change to another vet, what quality QB would even consider coming here to throw less and not use their skill set?

I know, but you posted a global conclusion that he can't read defenses based on that throw. I saw his TD to DPJ against the Bengals, therefore I know he can read defenses, he does look for WRs downfield, and he throws a great deep ball.

Yet if one actually looks at the percentages of int's per pass attempt Baker doesn't rank well. The fact he has less pass attempts than many other QB's because of our superior running game makes the stats you posted look rather deceptive.

https://www.footballdb.com/leaders/active-passing-intpct

Since Stefanski and AVP have taken over. They have put a great emphasis on improving Baker.

They asked for a certain type of conditioning. They wanted his footwork "their way." They made it paramount that turnovers were death and would not be tolerated.

They built the offense they want to run. Baker has made the effort to accept their coaching.

Sometimes it looked very good. The expectations of this year were built upon the results of the second half of last year.

Is it all on Baker? No it is not. Has he been a part of the troubles? Sure. He has been as inconsistent as the rest.

The Browns are in a tough spot. They have to determine a course of action. The safe bet is year to year as long as possible.

I think to a great extent we agree. I think they will extend the fifth year option rather than extend his contract at this juncture. That keeps him here for another year while at the same time seeing how things progress from here and giving them the option to extend him at the end of the 2022 season. Don't you think that going into a QB's fourth year it's realistic for an organization to expect they are building on the QB's third year? And I certainly agree that Baker has made every effort to to accept their coaching. I'm just not sure how that is relative to what we are seeing on the field of play.

Where did you get the link with Mark Brunell, Colin Kaepernick, and Bernie Kosar on it?

These are NFL QB's with 1500 minimum passing attempts. With greats like Neil O'Donnell, Case Keenum, Brian Hoyer, David Garrard and Steve Bono all rated well above Baker in lower interception rate per pass attempts.

So on the all time list Baker is in the top 50, essentially tied with Peyton Manning? Pretty cool to know.

This year, of those with at least 100 attempts, Baker is 6th in the NFL behind Cousins, Wentz, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, and Bridgewater.. so clearly this stat is not the end all be all... because some of the guys much farther down on the list are Mahomes, Ryan, Murray, Brady, Wilson...

Truth be told, it wouldn't bother me if Baker threw a few more interceptions because he was taking more chances, pushing the ball down the field, trying to make bigger plays... His first year, his INT% was 2.9, then it went up to 3.9 under Freddie, then 2 years under Stefanski it has plummeted to 1.6 both years...

pit - you keep wanting to use the Freddie Kitchens year - 21 interceptions that year - and paint Baker a final product based of his second year, with his 3rd HC who happens to be one of the worst HC in the history of the NFL.

His Rookie year he threw 14 Int. Which is pretty decent for a rookie starting what was it - 13 games? Last year he threw 8 in a full season. A full season where he was learning yet another new offense and where KS wanted him to be a different QB and Baker played badly in the first 5-6 games of the season....

Comparing a 4th year QB who p[layed as a rookie for a 1-31 team - then played for Kitchens in a woefully tragic year - and using those stats to compare to guys who played full careers in the NFL.... and thinking that's some sort of gotcha moment? Dude - seriously you are trying WAY too hard.

I can't believe how the DT talking heads avoided the simple question I asked of them...

...ARE THERE REASONS FOR THE BROWNS DECLINE IN MAYFIELD'S PLAY OR THE PLAY OF THE BROWNS OFFENSE?

A whole bunch of Browns fans are not being honest about what is going on in Cleveland, pertaining to the offense's lack of production, especially the passing game. Not a hard question to answer boys and girls, unless your simple avoiding the obvious answers, preferring to listen to the "fake Browns fans" (the national media talking heads)who have never endured half of what the average true Browns fans have endured, trying to support this franchise.

Those of you who dare to be honest know damn well their are legitimate reasons that affect the performance of the Browns offense...now let's see if any of you can admit it.

Who are you? And what position do you have with the team?

We can't read your dang mind. There are a lot of reasons for a lot of things if you want to throw someone under the bus,
just do it! don't expect others to guess who it is that you have a problem with.

Because if the question is, Are there reasons for a decline in the Browns offense in general, or Mayfields' play more specifically, then yes there are reasons and the list is a laundry list of many different reasons.

Or maybe the Browns defense?????

My take is this. All the injuries to baker have pretty much taken away the play action roll out we used so much last season. Also, stefanski playcalling has become so predictable. How many times when the game is close or tied have we seen us with 1st and 10 come out in a shotgun and empty backfield? How many times have we seen the other team score and stefanski basically panic and abandon the run game and become pass happy? Stefanskis arrogance and refusal to hand over playcalling to pelt will he a major reason we dont make the playoffs. Of course joe woods will also be a big reason but that's another topic

Notes from an article in The Athletic...

Games are going to be close. They’re going to be decided by a few plays — and often in the last few minutes. In 10 games, the Browns have led going to the fourth quarter eight times, but they have been outscored by 34 points in the fourth quarter this season. They have a total of seven fourth-quarter points over their last five games. Seven. Total.

The Browns are only converting 37 percent of their third-down chances, and only 30 percent on the road. Their offense is 27th league-wide on third downs, and the defense is 28th as opponents are converting at better than 44 percent. Head coach Kevin Stefanski won’t ever say it, but his actions say he wants his team to be aggressive in trying to convert fourth downs, too. Well, the Browns are 25th at that.

And...

Chubb and Hunt drive the offense. When the Browns had Hunt and Chubb both in the lineup for the first five games, they were 3-2 and averaged 28.4 points per game. In the other five, they’re 2-3 and averaging 17.8. In his seven games, Chubb has 721 rushing yards, six rushing touchdowns and is averaging a career-best 6.0 yards per carry. Hunt got hurt on Oct. 17; starting that day, the Browns have scored 17 or fewer in four of the last five games.

Maybe didn't feel worthy.

To be fair, I don't think we ever really envisioned/prepared for not having both Chubb and Hunt available. Johnson has been more than adequate, and I tip my hat to him and his efforts in the Pats and Broncos games, but I think it's clear that our offense requires more than that (again, no slight to Johnson) from the RB position.

Actually in his third year Stefanski was his coach. This is Baker's fourth year. And no matter how you slice it, Baker is who he is now. Either you haven't been following what I've been saying or I've done a poor job in communicating it. Either way, what I'm saying is we don't know what Baker is. Kitchens wasn't throwing the ball. Stefanski wasn't throwing the ball last year. In both cases
Baker was. We've seen good Baker and bad Baker. There's no way in my mind anyone can say with any confidence whether Baker is the answer or not. I'm certainly not saying he can't or won't be. I'm saying it's a big question mark at this point in time. So I hope that helps clear things up.

My assertion is with the evidence this FO is being faced it would seem more likely they pick up Baker's fifth year option and give this experiment another year before committing to a big money contract. For the last several weeks with the exception of the Bengals game, our scoring has been anemic. Without our defense really holding down our opponents, we wouldn't have won any of them. Now I'm not laying all of that at the feet of Baker. But if you really believe we should go all in on Baker based on what you've seen these past several weeks by resting your laurels on what you saw last season, we simply disagree.

That isn't an argument to kick Baker to the curb. It isn't saying there isn't a possibility things won't change. All I'm really trying to do here is point out that football is a business. No matter your job, you aren't being judged on what you did last year. You're judged on your current performance. Your "annual review" as it were. You see, it seems I'm not the one here who is trying to cherry pick the best or the worst of Baker. I'm taking his work as a whole. And at this time, this FO is going to have to look at where Baker is now when deciding to commit to either signing him to huge money on a long term deal or picking up his fifth year option.

Based on those two options I think waiting to take a look at that fifth year would be the wisest path forward.

Actually Pit, the Browns have already exercised the 5th year option on both Ward and Mayfield. They did that back in April I believe. If I am understanding correctly, that option has to be exercised prior to the start of their 4th season.

You are correct. Thanks for that. I do however think most of us know that rarely does a team that thinks they have the answer of a franchise QB do they allow it to go into his fifth season before working out an extension. I just don't believe this FO knows exactly what they have, yet. Time will tell I guess.

Correct. The Browns picked up Baker's 5th year option back in late April. It was an obvious move back then.

If there are some on this board who want to replace Baker fine they are entitled to their opinion. My ? is who are we going to replace him with? If Rodgers or Wilson don't want to come here what can we do? I doubt we'll find anyone in the draft. We need to give Baker another season. With his and the teams injuries, not to mention the turmoil, it seems like the right thing to do.

I believe you are correct. We have Mayfield next year regardless. I kept getting confused myself about which was his 4th/5th year because it had to get done prior.

Despite all the overhaul that's happened over the past 2 offseasons, I'm actually starting to think the most dramatic/significant (not really finding the right word here) will be this upcoming offseason. You have Jarvis and Njoku in "put up or shutup" situations. You have Mayfield and Ward that will be entering into that zone. You also have Tretter, Higgins, Ronnie Harrison, Hubbard, Malcolm Smith, MJ Stewart (starting to get deep into depth ranks), and then the army of 1-year deals we did last offseason that are getting significant start time (Clowney, Takk, Malik Jackson, Walker). This offseason, I'm starting to think, will tell us more about our FO and coaches than the others in terms of how they go on these decisions.

And lastly, there should be some difficult conversations in terms of coaches and coaches' responsibilities, and I'll be a little surprised if they come out of those maintaining the status quo. I know we've had a lot of injuries and stuff, but there's been just too much disappointment on top of that.

Where did you see me say we should replace Baker? I'm simply saying that we don't quite know one way or the other what we have in him at this moment in time and I think the FO will let year five at least begin to play itself out before making a long term commitment and 100 million dollars to him.

Let me ask you this, with the way Baker is playing, would you commit 100 million in future cap space in a long term deal with him right now?

No I wouldn't.

So just for clarity, we know who he is now... but at the same time, we don't know what Baker is...

Got it.

We know who he is at this point in time. We know who he was last year. We don't know what the final product will be. I hope now you "got it".

Somewhere between the perpetually moving goal posts is a straw man convinced that the "issue" of a lack of clarity is the fault of everyone ELSE but the straw man.

And what clarity do you have in regards to signing Baker Mayfield to a long term contract based upon what you've seen this season? Oh that's right, you're not here in this thread to actually contribute to the topic. How quickly I had forgotten.

I won't be even remotely involved in whether someone else decides to re-sign Baker...I imagine you won't find clarity in that either.

I know you're joking, but I think this is the most accurate portrayal of where we're at.

I'm sure you understand that this is a message board where we all post our opinions. Over the next year a final decision will have to be made on whether Baker gets a long term contract here or not. Nobody posting on this board is actually involved in "whether someone else decides to re-sign Baker" or not. Just like every other player on the roster. Yet we have debates and threads about those players as well all of the time. I think it's fine if you wish not to be involved replying to the topic. But just popping in to make snarky personal comments instead shows your intent is not to stay out of the topic, but rather make a comment of a personal nature with nothing of substance to add.

slick has a damn good point...the Browns offense is based on "the play action pass"...did Baker change that critical factor of the offense?

Let's hear it...it's Baker's fault that defenses no longer honor the Browns play action principal, correct?...speak up everyone...Baker's fault, right?

I'll be here awhile, so let's hear it, folks!

Listen to espn and they will sure tell you, for sure, it is all Baker's fault...but not a one of those ESPN TALKING HEADS even mentioned the "REASON" that slick mentioned...that with our running game not being a consistent threat like it was last season, the entire offense is less potent.

It's Baker who panicked and made the decision to abandon the play action pass, RIGHT?

So Baker can only succeed in a play action offense? For some reason I think you believe that's a strong point.

So you can only post when you are snarky and condescending, I suppose you think that is your strong point.

Baker isn't just good when play action is utilized correctly, he becomes lethal. But as long as he isn't good at whatever you think he should be good at you will be happy.

Keep in mind who you replied to. he looks for arguments. He thrives on them. Just a heads up for you.

This is known.