BS about not having an elite or dynamic TE or WR talent. OBJ, Landry and Hooper have all been to the Pro Bowl. However, when OBJ gets 3 targets in a game and Hooper only 1, how much effort do you think these guys are giving knowing they are being looked at 5% of the total plays between them. Actually it was 4.1% for OBJ and 1.3% for Hooper.
Just an FYI, Hooper averaged 73 receptions and 92.5 targets the 2-years previous coming to Cleveland and made the Pro Bowl both years. Last year the Browns targeted him 70 times with 46 receptions. The math tells you he lost 24.3% of his targets and 36.9% of his receptions.
Landry 3 Pro Bowl years at Miami showed him averaging 105.3 receptions on 152.6 targets. In his 3-years at Cleveland he's averaged 78.6 receptions on 129.3 targets. The math tells you he lost 15.3% of his targets and 25.4% of his receptions. Another note is that Landry's targets have dropped every year he's been with the Browns - 2018 = 149, 2019 = 138, and 2020 = 101.
OBJ is a little different due to the injury years but interesting just the same. Beckham's final 3-years in NY (where he missed time in 2 of those years - 16 of 32 games) he averaged 111.3 targets per year even tough he missed significant time in 2 of those years and 67.6 receptions. In the 2-years he's been with the Browns (where he only missed 9 games) he is averaging 88 targets and 48.5 receptions. Injury time included, that's a 20.9% target reduction and a 28.3% reduction in completions.
Not unlike Baker, why bring a Pro Bowl WR or TE to your team if you are not going to use their skills? I mean seriously, the best they have done is reduce Landry 25.4% of the completions that he had prior to joining the Browns. The other two guys have been treated even worse. You have a QB that's been changed from a gunslinger into a game manager and your targets are dropping even further as evident by Baker currently averaging .80 TD passes per game in 2021. I don't know about you, but with one of your stars out on IR and you get looked at only 3 or 1 times a game I'm pretty sure they're saying to themselves WTF. You say we don't have elite or dynamic talent - I say no team has elite/dynamic talent when you're only throwing for 230 yds per game on average, your QB is completing nearly 70% of his passes and you only get 3 or 1 targets in a game where you score 42 points. NO TALENT IS ELITE/DYNAMIC IF IT'S NOT USED!
I think back to the first touchdown. OBJ and Higgins both lined up on the right side of the field. OBJ slanted inside and Higgins ran an out route and was wide open. Why? Both defenders on the play choose to follow OBJ. Should Baker have forced the ball to OBJ? Would a touchdown to OBJ make Baker a better QB?
I think that is happening more often than not. Teams are slanting coverage's OBJ's way.
As far as wide receivers averaging less yards in Cleveland than other places. WE ARE A RUNNING TEAM. Balanced attack but run the bal far more than most other teams. That is this teams identity. That means OBJ and Landry's numbers will not be as eye popping but hopefully will lead them to a deep run in the playoffs. Baker job is to manage the attack. Could he be more of a gun slinger QB? Probably, but that is not what Stefanski is asking him to be. Run the ball, play action pass off the run. That is who are team is. I would say it is working well except the defensive injuries and losing when scoring 42 points on the road.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
KS and AVP have implemented their offense based upon what they feel will work best.
A playing personality based upon the skills of the players.
The Browns have the best running attack in the NFL.
Their zone blocking scheme fits to the skills of Chubb/Hunt.
They feature two and three TE's sets and a play action pass game. They use screens to backs and TE's.
The pass game is sync'd to drop steps and routes trees to get the ball out.
The Browns are not a drop back pocket pass team throwing to 3 and 4 receivers. That is not their game.
The offense is based upon balance and disquise.
You will rarely see 300 yards of passing with receivers getting tons of targets.
Not when Chubb and Hunt get 30 plus carries.
Baker is not Dan Marino.
Jarvis fits what we do. Odell can fit but he will never get tons of targets.
Hooper in Atlanta was a huge part of their game. He is a role player in this scheme.
All quarterbacks are game managers. They run the plays called. Win the game. That is a game by game deal. KS and AVP along with Callahan and the other offensive coaches delvelop a game plan based upon what they see are the best matchups. The offense is diverse and each game will feature different guys. ==================================================
For years I would have been happy to play 500 ball.
Now we are a winning team.
And we have Board members who believe they know better than the coaches.
Baker is the focal point of every win or lose. He is this and he is that.
He is the starting quarterback on a roster of 53. He runs the offense given to him. He does not play call.
He plays to win the game as best he can.
So far in his career with the Browns. He has done pretty well all things considered.
OBJ should catch the ball on a 4th down 2 yard pass that hits him right between the numbers.
There's no doubt that's true. But honestly, if you stopped throwing the ball to every NFL WR who dropped an easy pass, there wouldn't be any NFL WR's left to throw the ball to. They all drop an easy one from time to time.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Not unlike Baker, why bring a Pro Bowl WR or TE to your team if you are not going to use their skills?
Well, the people that brought Baker and OBJ to town are not here anymore, so that question makes no sense. Hooper I thought was a bad signing from day 1. Berry et al. didn't trust Njoku, and they have been proven wrong on that call.
Landry's a bit different. No way he could maintain that target share his whole career...even if he actively tried to find teams that had NO other playmakers, he still would not have maintained those targets.
Bottom line, since KS has implemented his system, WRs are at best a 2nd option, and often a 3rd option. This is currently seems like a big problem at the moment, but there are positives long term:
1. Moving forward, we do NOT need to pay big $ for WR, leaving more cap flexibility at other positions.
2. That doesn't mean we won't be able to get talented guys. There are plenty of WRs that are on the downside of their career that, if they thought our team provided a good shot at a title, would be happy to sign on board. e.g. AJ Green's deal with the Cards.
It doesn't matter what he did at Oklahoma. 1. He is a 4th year QB. College is irrelevant. 2. As long as KS is our coach, you're never seeing that offense on the Browns. Again, irrelevant. What Baker and KS need to do is work together better within the KS system.
I think there is an observable difference when Baker is executing the game plan, and to his credit executing it well, and when Baker is "in the zone". I think drop back, plant and throw is when he's at his best and a game speed more natural for him. But then I'm not a QB coach so take that for what its worth.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
He may be at his best when the call rolls him out. When he sits, he can get sacked while waiting. Baker active and mobile seems sharper and, well, more dangerous to me. But that is a rolled out Baker, not a flushed BM who can get creamed and screw up his OL.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
It doesn't matter what he did at Oklahoma. 1. He is a 4th year QB. College is irrelevant. 2. As long as KS is our coach, you're never seeing that offense on the Browns. Again, irrelevant. What Baker and KS need to do is work together better within the KS system.
Kevin Stefanski is hurting the effectiveness of Baker Mayfield?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Defense: point blank no excuse but fact. Clowney out, Garrett and Takk playing injured as well as our DTs. JOK was limited in the 4th quarter as he got hit in the throat. Newsome out, Ward out, Greedy out.
Johnson at FS makes others play better Our DBs were rag tag situation so the results were bad. Pressure got less and less due to injuries. Yes I think coaching has to win us these games as we are in it.
Quite frankly I don't like the fact that Ski cannot create space unless its play action, its not Baker who cannot play unless its play action Its our play book. Yes I know its played out but 3rd and 10 late in the game with our defense playing like a wet paper bag (remember those days) we run the ball to get 30+ seconds off the clock and give them back the ball to win the game. Getting a first down was key...why Run, run and no play action instead a run on first or 2nd downs. Ski has no faith in our Franchise QB, that is not a good situation. Sometimes we have to play spread and create space with a no huddle situation. But SKI is so intent on playing conservative which wouldn't be that bad if the D wasn't hurting so badly. But the O was going to have to win the game and Baker can win a shoot out but he is not given the OPPORTUNITY. Staying with in the system and playing conservative would be possible if we had Stud impact players for the air game. But we don't - OBJ is not working out in this O...spread em no huddle would benefit OBJ and our WRs. But we just don't have the talent as was reported by all these reports about how stack we are. We are not - we got a very good OL and we got two PRO Bowl RBs... I do blame coaching for not winning these games...I'm talking about winning Chiefs and Chargers games!
jmho - Oh and I'm getting to like the new format once I have figured some things out...lol
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Good point about the lack of separation without playaction. I thought that last year vs KC as well
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
He talks football in a what he saw fashion which I cherish. Whilst these talking heads and self acclaimed experts make their opinions mostly off of STATS...which I would do back in the day prior to satellite and actually viewing the games. I would envision the game simply by assessing the stats. Well these guys watch a few games not all and rarely our games so that they judge us via STATS...not actual football. jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I'm not properly equipped to argue X's and O's with the likes of this guy, but I was under the impression that JJ3 came here to be our FS because that is his "thing". He's a smart defender that's instinctual and with gobs of coverage ability for a safety (can flex to the corner position when needed). I'm parroting what I remember reading when he came here.
I'm not really sure about his "let Baker be Baker" argument. I get what he's saying that Baker isn't Cousins, but you can allow your QB to sling it more without leading to a whole mess of INTs. I think we might still be working on getting both those things to be true at the same time. I also buy the line of thinking that we're playing conservative due to Baker's bum wing and our tackle situation.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Stefanski is not afraid to look in the mirror and be self critical.
He made a mistake with the 3rd down call. He knows it. I think he felt the tackles were a problem.
Going forward IMO KS will learn to trust Baker more.
This is their second year together both Baker and KS are learning as each week passes.
Odell is working hard. He is drawing double coverage but he is also blocking. DPJ, Higgins, Schwartz, Felton all need to step up.
If they are running routes while Odell is drawing double. They have to get open. DPJ has shown he can win contested balls. Higgins reads zones well and finds space. Schwartz has to find out what he can do?
Baker just needs to read the play and find the right guy.
What you think and what I think don't jive, Mr. Hater. Baker is top 5 in my book, and definitely no less than top ten. Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow is the order I grade your top list in, I wouldn't even bother with the last 4, they are all above average scrubs.
What you think and what I think don't jive, Mr. Hater. Baker is top 5 in my book, and definitely no less than top ten. Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow is the order I grade your top list in, I wouldn't even bother with the last 4, they are all above average scrubs.
💩
And there he goes throwing poop like monkeys at the zoo... When I made that statement, I was trying to push you to be a better fan; I failed.
What you think and what I think don't jive, Mr. Hater. Baker is top 5 in my book, and definitely no less than top ten. Patrick Mahomes, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Baker, Lamar Jackson, Kyler Murray, Matt Stafford, Josh Allen, Dak Prescott, Russell Wilson, Justin Herbert, Joe Burrow is the order I grade your top list in, I wouldn't even bother with the last 4, they are all above average scrubs.
💩
And there he goes throwing poop like monkeys at the zoo... When I made that statement, I was trying to push you to be a better fan; I failed.
Push me to be a better fan? It is not for you to decide who is a good or bad fan. Come down from Mt. Pious and hang out with the rest of us, the clouds are obscuring your view.
before anybody flips out, we need baker to make the playoffs.
but this thursday night game coming up should be a great reason to just sit baker and give him a mini bye. maybe all it takes is a week and he's back for the next game. but right now, the injury is too big of an issue to keep him out there. especially if both our OTs are out on thursday night again, thats just a recipe for a season ending injury on baker.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
He misses a game to get better and has his mini bye to heal up. Miss him for a single game or potentially a season, you decide? It would be a smart decision so I hope it happens.
Won't deny that Baker needs to get healthy, but his shoulder is screwed until he has surgery or allows enough time for it to heal to a point that it's no longer causing pain. But there is no way I see them benching Baker for even a game if he's saying he can play.
My understanding is that an extra off week isn't really going to do anything to help his injury. It's going to be a management thing all year (or we just shut him down).
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
Im trying to give baker the benefit of the doubt this season. I’m trying to be positive and say your draft position doesn’t matter, just your performance. I’m trying to add context and remember that we got injuries all over the place.
But then I look around the league and remember that other teams not only have injury problems at key positions as well, but don’t even have the plethora of weapons when they ARE healthy that baker does.
Josh Allen IS the run game in Buffalo. They don’t have running backs like ours. Lamar Jackson IS the running game in Baltimore. Their O line sucks and all their RBs are injured.
Ever since the legion of boom area ended, Russell Wilson has had crap o lines and even worse RBs with not a lot of good receivers, and yet still manages to get division titles and compete at a high level.
Matt stafford had literally nobody but Megatron. Still found a way to atleast put his teams in position to win.
Hell, in Cincy, there’s no question that Joe burrow is far and away better than baker. And he has no where near the talent level on offense that baker has.
And at this point, it’s gonna be hard to convince me that an old ass Big Ben wouldn’t have us at the top of the division right now.
Why? Because in a QB driven league, all those QBs have the ability to put a team on their back and win. They all have the ability to get their best player the ball. So far our QB, especially against playoff/SB contending teams, just can’t seem to do it.
If everything around baker needs to be completely perfect for him to succeed (Jared Goff, Ryan tannehill) then ok.
But if that’s the case, im not sure any of us can expect a SB title. Because perfect conditions every week isn’t realistic. Injury free isn’t realistic. The perfect play call every week isn’t realistic. And since we don’t have a QB who can thrive under bad conditions, then it shouldn’t be surprising that some of us can only expect a winning record and wild card birth every season.
Cause division titles and deep playoff runs is something I can’t even dream about right now. 4 years in, and the best we got is 2nd place in the division.
Some of you will predictably respond with “look where we’re at before baker” and all that, but please, stop.
The point is to win titles, not be happy with mediocrity and a bunch of progressive commercials.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Im trying to give baker the benefit of the doubt this season. I’m trying to be positive and say your draft position doesn’t matter, just your performance. I’m trying to add context and remember that we got injuries all over the place.
But then I look around the league and remember that other teams not only have injury problems at key positions as well, but don’t even have the plethora of weapons when they ARE healthy that baker does.
Josh Allen IS the run game in Buffalo. They don’t have running backs like ours. Lamar Jackson IS the running game in Baltimore. Their O line sucks and all their RBs are injured.
Ever since the legion of boom area ended, Russell Wilson has had crap o lines and even worse RBs with not a lot of good receivers, and yet still manages to get division titles and compete at a high level.
Matt stafford had literally nobody but Megatron. Still found a way to atleast put his teams in position to win.
Hell, in Cincy, there’s no question that Joe burrow is far and away better than baker. And he has no where near the talent level on offense that baker has.
And at this point, it’s gonna be hard to convince me that an old ass Big Ben wouldn’t have us at the top of the division right now.
Why? Because in a QB driven league, all those QBs have the ability to put a team on their back and win. They all have the ability to get their best player the ball. So far our QB, especially against playoff/SB contending teams, just can’t seem to do it.
If everything around baker needs to be completely perfect for him to succeed (Jared Goff, Ryan tannehill) then ok.
But if that’s the case, im not sure any of us can expect a SB title. Because perfect conditions every week isn’t realistic. Injury free isn’t realistic. The perfect play call every week isn’t realistic. And since we don’t have a QB who can thrive under bad conditions, then it shouldn’t be surprising that some of us can only expect a winning record and wild card birth every season.
Cause division titles and deep playoff runs is something I can’t even dream about right now. 4 years in, and the best we got is 2nd place in the division.
Some of you will predictably respond with “look where we’re at before baker” and all that, but please, stop.
The point is to win titles, not be happy with mediocrity and a bunch of progressive commercials.
So what you're saying is you have decided NOT to give Baker the benefit of the doubt...
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I’m trying to say that we might have already seen bakers ceiling. But I still have hope.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
Baker seems to have a tendency to look (shall we say) something other than competent in the first portions of seasons before making a change and going on a tear in the back half of the season. I have no idea as to the why behind this, but we've seen this happen over the past few seasons under various circumstances.
I'll reserve judgement until much later.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
My biggest issue with Baker is that he can look super elite like he looked last year (after Odell's injury), then look super average the next. He only looks good when everything is going well. You never know exactly what you're gonna get from him. I'm taking everything else into consideration too. I know our oline is banged up and our rbs are out. Coach has to find a way to help him out as well. But there are moments when the opportunities are there and he hardly takes advantage of them. He takes too long going through his reads and misses his target, or tries to take off running like Lamar. These were issues before the shoulder injury. Outside of the Bengals game last year, I have yet to see him take us down the field with his arm for the win.
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