DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield Part IV A New Hope

QBs I’d take over Baker as of 10/31/21 [revised]:

Mike White
Patrick Mahomes
Kyler Murray

Aaron Rodgers
Lamar Jackson
Justin Herbert
Trevor Siemian
Cooper Rush
Russell Wilson
Dak Prescott

Josh Allen
Tom Brady
Joe Burrow
Matt Stafford

Derek Carr
Ryan Tannehill

I put Siemian and Rush where I did because Wilson and Prescott are injured.

My two biggest issues with Bake are how long he holds the ball and how bad he is under pressure … and yes menZas I know all qb’s are bad under pressure but Bake is extra bad under pressure …

When Case played our wr’s magically got open much quicker than they do under bake … …. The apologists show there true colors with that defense ….

I’d also be interested to know how Bake compares to others in regards to 4th quarter play and how Bake in Q4 compares to Bake in Q’s 1 - 3 …

Feel free geeks …

I think the Case comment is reasonable - but it was a very small sample size. But it seemed to me watching Case - he reminded me a little of Derek Anderson in getting the ball out quickly. He made a pre-snap determination on where the ball was going to be thrown, 3 step drop and the ball was being thrown - NO MATTER WHAT. That quickly caught up with Anderson, defenses worked him out. While Case got the ball out quick vs Denver - he is more limited than Baker even with the injuries ... the question is do you want Baker throwing the ball to his pre-snap read no matter what? ... I actually think that needs to be in the playbook occasionally. Just like chucking up a bomb and hoping DPJ comes down with it. But you gotta live with the consequences if it goes sideways and it can't be predictable.

My biggest problem is that Ski refuse to move Bake . The kid has been dangerous on the move going back to his College days and early use here. I don' care for stick him in the pocket Ski. We have talked about it addeemed , but is don't like the empty back field either. They have disolved all the chemistry Higgens and Bake had by not keeping Hollywood on the field more. To add insult to injury ; His is all a very simple fix .. This is my story and I'm sticking to it // lol

I won’t even touch comparing Case to Derek … that’s like comparing John Riggins to Barry Sanders or Nolan Ryan to Gregg Maddox …

Case got rid of the ball quicker than Bake does cause Case made a pre-snap read and threw to it no matter what … …

Maybe just maybe Case makes good pre-snap reads and that helps him process info post snap much quicker than Bake …

Bake holds the ball to long, anyone that understands the game knows this … arch’s eye test is all u need to know that and I’m sure the stats confirm that ….

One thing I should have stated in my original post:

I’m happy with Bake as our QB … there are others I would take over him but Bake is slightly above average IMO and we could do much worse!

I'm going to beat the drum here again...but to add to your point rather than attempt to detract.

When things start to break down in the pocket, what do other supposedly-elite QBs have that we do not? The answer is a go-to guy with a trait that either gets him free of a defender or a trait that allows the receiver to go up and catch the ball or take it away from a defender. Someone he can count on. I think Landry is probably that guy he counts on...BUT...he's not a big WR and he's not exceptionally quick or fast. You aren't going to chuck a ball in his direction and expect him to out-run or out-muscle the defender.

How many times a game does K Murray, Mahommes, Burrow etc. just chuck up a throw? Who would Baker trust in those moments to make a positive play? The answer is Breshad Perriman. Ooops, he's not on the team anymore...neither has anyone like him...and hasn't been for years.

Somewhat to your point and to that of 888...Baker has to learn to throw the ball away when the do-do is hitting the fan. I absolutely think there should be plays - at times - where he simply goes to the first read regardless of what might develop elsewhere...but that dovetails with throwing the ball away at times. He wants to make the big play and misses out on a good play at times while doing so.

Coaching Baker to "take what's there" has to be meshed with his desire - AND ABILITY - to make the big play. I don't have the answer to that...but I have the question.

Ha. Seems like you want to bring your BS Politics anxst to the football forum. Have at it.

Just so we are clear I didn't say they were similar QBs. I said they throw the ball to their one pre-snap read. Sorry if that difference is too subtle for you to understand. If you disagree that's fine. I was at the Denver game and have not watched it since, I was relaying what it felt like when I was at the game.


twitter.com/EdGreenberger/status/1454919197029449731

Thought this was worth sharing for all the Baker haters. Baker played plenty well enough to win the game. Hopefully he continues that level of play.

Hmmmm … interesting points sir! … definitely food for thought … thanks for making me think, I need that right now …

eh, that's a tough pill to swallow since it is a sample size of one and that one was a VERY bad Denver. Still, there's probably something there, but it definitely needs some salt taken with it.

So then spit the pill out …. *L* ….

Are you saying Bake doesn’t hold the ball to long?

U have a point about my example but that doesn’t change my point one iota …

So do u disagree with my point or just my example?

I mean you can say "VERY bad Denver" but they're 4-4 (same record as us) and currently have the #4 ranked defense in the NFL (likely not going to last now that they traded Miller). Does that equal VERY bad? I dunno.

It wasn't going to last regardless, because that defense (and offense) has been ravaged by other injuries lately.

I think it does. Their four wins are teams with a combined record of 7-23. At 4-4, overall their opposition is 25-34. Besides that, I watched then live. Maybe not very bad, but a very firm "BAD".

Everyone’s QB rating goes down under pressure, but being the worst at it sucks.

But that’s the thing, i refuse to go with some peoples narrative that baker is a one read QB. We’ve seen bake at his best go through progressions and take care of the football. Posters seem to not like my take so far, but I think Stefanski has a choke collar on bake and is trying to turn him into just another Case or Kirk cousins. Bake is way better than that.

So what about last year then? Stefanski saw Baker play great within the system and said, “Enough of that.”

If your working theory is that Stefanski is changing/turning the scheme/plays on its head from what worked, and your question is 'why?', then wouldn't the only answer that makes any sort of sense be the injuries we've been sustaining (our QB who likes to take risks has a shoulder that's barely being held together and his Oline is super beat up).

Except the film shows different. Jake Burns has posted multiple videos throughout the season of guys running open downfield.

I think it’s possible those guys aren’t getting the ball because of Baker’s injury but let’s not pretend they aren’t there.

I didn’t say he was a one read QB … 2 years ago one of the things I said he needed to do was process info/ go through his reads quicker …. He has improved in that area but not enough IMO … he still holds the ball way to long IMO …

Thanks for not ripping my example … *L* …

I couldn’t agree less with Kev putting a leash on him … I’ve said what cfrs just did since i jumped into the fray here … cfrs just said it funnier than i do … *L* …

I heard zero complaints about Kev last year with what Bake did the last 8 games …. ZERO … now were losing and the apologists (not u) are making every excuse in the book including the one u agree with them on that its Kev’s leash ….

To almost quote cfrs … did Kev say enough of the last 8 games of last year, one interception is just to many?

That argument’s worse than my example … *L* …

I was actually thinking of Brian Hoyer not Anderson. Hoyer got the ball out quickly, and there was a reason... Leastways that was my take.

Not to detract from the point that Baker holds the ball too long because I believe that he does. But as was pointed out Baker was much better at rolling out and "making things happen, not only as a rookie but in the second half of last season. So who is this great WR we had last year that we don't have this year?


Breshad Perriman? He was here in 2018. He played in ten games. He had a grand total of 16 receptions in those 10 games. Not exactly the "go to guy". Memories can play tricks on us all.

I think all the double clutches we see indicate he holds the ball too long..

Pretty sure every stat I've ever seen about time taken to throw the ball shows Baker holds the ball for a long time. And yes the double clutches are part of that. So too we're some very slow developing plays earlier last season which KS addressed and changed. Sometimes his height plays a part too.

Thought this was interesting 4 those posters who say that betta isn't good enough

twitter.com/EdGreenberger/status/1454919197029449731

Last 2 drives, every throw.

I've been thinking about this... and similar stats that just seem not to fit what we're watching.
I really feel like one of the biggest problems is that we're never in a real rhythm offensively. We make those plays at the same rate but never seem to string them together.

Couple that with problems in the red zone, never executing on 4th down and making all the mistakes at the worst possible times and you have the 2021 Cleveland Browns.

I've been thinking about the offensive woes the last couple of days, and I think the issue is this; Baker is best at intermediate passes from ten to twenty/thirty yards and this run first play action offense is not using those longer throws to keep defenses honest. Teams are focused on stopping the run, meaning 8+ in the box at the snap most plays... that's a lot of defenders for the line to block and RBs to clear just to hit the second level. BUT it also takes away YAC in the short passing game. We got a lot of YAC last year, not so much this year. So, imho, to quick fix the O, we need to call more intermediate and long passes early. Come out like last year and throw a 60-yard bomb to DPJ, Shwartz, or OBJ (faster WRs) on the first play from scrimmage. And throw longer stuff early to clear defenses out of the box and keep them honest. Then we win.

So throw less efficient passes, that take longer to develop, with a QB that has his arm being held on by fabric?

That was my first though too, but it's the only real difference I can see unless we just forgot how to win and or our O was vastly overrated... So, without being snarky, what do you have to fix the O?

Have the offensive line play to their abilities and don’t have receivers drop crucial passes.

What do these stats show in week 8 thru 16 in 2020 after OBJ was no longer on the field?

A great question.

Your ability to miss the point is remarkable.

Maybe it's your inability to convey it.

100% this^

Someone else just posted above some stats about how we're still taking deep shots but just not connecting. Just because the stats may say we're taking the shots, it doesn't mean that this offense actually has a vertical component to it. If we had a legit vertical component to the scheme we'd see a helluva lot more of The Chief. There's something else I think many people aren't taking in to account in regards to Baker. How many times have we heard that our offense is going to take what the defense gives us? That is actually distinctly different from scheming to get who you want to be open and making the opposing DEF do what you want it to do. I watch Baker drop back, get 3+ seconds of and think to myself that just because you can get that much time, it doesn't mean you have to use it. Its like he's trying to figure out who's open after the snap and when you do that you can't guarantee you'll be looking in the right place at the right time. It's reacting not anticipating. It seems like he doesn't have a preset progression to go through for any given play. When's the last time we saw Baker look off a defender?

This offense needs to open it up and stop being so risk averse. This offense is a high end sports car. But instead of driving it in Track mode, its being driven in a safe, careful Grand Touring mode. I don't see any reason not to. Most of the remaining games are against playoff quality teams. May as well start playing like it already is the playoffs.

I was just thinking about a play from Baker's rookie year. Panthers game, drops back, slides away from pressure to his left. Absolutely zero panic. Eyes downfield. One of the best deep TD passes ive ever seen to Landry.

So much promise. So much to build off of. Yet so much regression. Meanwhile, Murray, Allen, Burrow, Jackson also flashed similar promise and have continued to ascend in an upward trajectory.

So crushing.

My take exactly. And it's either that, or they are playing the wrong scheme trying to power run with dink and dunk passes lets the opponents D concentrate players in or near the box. YAC have all but disappeared, and the receivers are getting murdered or trying not to... Baker used to go deep early and often to open up the run, they are trying to do that with ten yard passes now. So, it could be scheme or Ski wants Cousins 2.0.

Can you provide evidence that Baker went deep early and often last year?

rewatch the games.

Exactly, I will continue to post that Stefanski has turned Baker from a "Gunslinger" into a game manager. Now to be fair, I think that it was a necessary move the first half of 2020 due to the lack of practice, timing with the receivers, and some prior documented poor decision making. Unfortunately, the run game became so dominant Stefanski set up his scheme and has refused to adjust it back. More throws down the field like in 2019 combined with a potent run offense will start to light up the scoreboard. Defenses will have to start playing the Browns honest instead of packing the box for the run and the ding and dunk passes. Move Baker in the pocket - roll outs with flooded zones and deep seam routes. This will open up the running attack even more. Teach your QB how to close out games and for goodness sake - please develop a feared 2-minute offense! Baker is not Case or Cousins - quit trying to turn him into them and let him be the controlled gunslinger the Browns drafted #1. Think about this - 35 million per year for a QB to be a game control manager handing the ball off 35-45 times a game is not a sustainable Championship formula. It's time to see if we can have the gunslinger Baker of 2019 combined with the right decision QB of 2021. We'll never know if Stefanski doesn't adjust the scheme.