We may have overhyped our corps, but I wouldn't trade them (except maybe for one). Our group is a talented that just need to get their head screwed back on straight.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
You guys are funny...after 20 Years two decades of suffering - we finally get a franchise QB and we struggle as a team playing 4-4 with a lot of adversity and you wish to throw him to the curb.. Put those other QBs in the same environment and the production of those QBs would be different. Baker is a spread em no huddle type of QB very accurate and positive results, he has been put in a very conservative disciplined West Coast Offense predicated on one positive tool "THE PLAY ACTION PASS" But we have no space for an air attack if we get behind and way too often our scheme is to play very conservative with the lead which would work if we had a top 3 defense. We got some pieces but no where close to the gel of a top 3 defense. Also the media sold us fans a load of crap telling us how loaded we were in weapons. The only loaded advantage we had was in our running attack and our OL. Our top WR OBJ has yet to practice with the team. There is no team sport like football where you need the pieces to fit and work together OBJ simply has not applied himself to make that happen. Baker meanwhile has tried to work with him but there has always been an excuse mostly valid but still never the less there is no gel within the system nor with Baker. I've tried to say no when its been shown how well our offense works without OBJ but when I look back it simply is a true fact. Is Higgins and DPJones better than OBJ in talent...no way but well let me say this about talent. JOSH GORDON" maybe the most talented WR there is but this is not a flag team where a great talent can simply walk on and do great things. OBJ is the most targeted Receiver this year for the Browns...I think 34 times??? That special something that one WR has with his QB just is not there. Baker has that with Landry and Higgins and this year DPJones they work well together and have production together.
I'm not happy with our coaching if I am unhappy about something. Why haven't we worked on our HOT reads there should be automatic routes ran on everfy blitz but I don't see that success out there??? WHY??? as a coach by now I would have these hot reads down and running smooth like a velvet glove. Not knowing stats but from views of what I see we are one of the most blitzed on team that I can see out there. That is why our screen passes are a thing of beauty cause in a sense its a route that is executed against a team over committing against our team. So that a screen pass is our best hot read schematic that we got even though its not designed specifically for that. Hopefully you all understand what I'm saying don't give me any crap about making excuses...I'm talking Browns football and my observations of what we have going out there. It is something that we have to work on - whether its a bomb or a slant I don't care it needs to be practiced over and over again so that when teams come at us with blitzes we make them pay.
We have one of the most accurate passers out there and we are not taking advantage of it. When I say accurate I'm not talking completion % but I'm talking about the placement of the ball so that the WRs get the ball in stride and without a break in action. We have that going. So when Stefanski tells OBJ to not bother coming to practice its comes at no surprise cause quite frankly when was the time he practiced anyways...its always DNP, DNP, DNP and then maypbe a L/P on friday. He is not Joe Thomas who did not miss a snap in 2 decades and who made the Pro bowl every year. He is not Joe Thomas who wrote the book on how to play LT so that in his last years would miss most of the practices. He is a WR who has yet to practice with the team.
Shame we did not trade him but we were trying to get this done so he would finally make an effort and become part of the team. Meanwhile note how this is being done AFTER THE TRADE DEADLINE so that he can get released and work a new contract out well I don't think Berry will play that game. either he plays hard for us or he doesn't play at all for us. After the year is done we will try to work something out. But I think without OBJ we can survive this year and win our division. Get into the playoffs and move on from OBJ, I so wanted it to work but we treated him as some Royalty and yet he did not contribute to the TEAM. This game Sunday is very big and we have to get our defense to control this game. Our team is starting to get healthy and we will be coming up to our bye week where we can heal the rest of the way and finish the season with a bang!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Meanwhile, Murray, Allen, Burrow, Jackson also flashed similar promise and have continued to ascend in an upward trajectory.
Look at the pass-catchers on those teams and get back to me.
The Ravens are clearly worse. Kyler has Hopkins and a bunch of average dudes. Allen has Diggs and a bunch of average dudes. The Bengals look to be stacked.
QB is a little hurt, but able to play just fine when he has time.
The bigger problem, by far, is the OLine and its depth. I truly think people either forget or completely ignore that we were without our top 3 OTs for a bit, and are still missing two of those 3 and the one that we're not missing is still nursing an ankle, though he has, thankfully, progressed to where he is finishing games. All of that AND our Center has been on the injury report all season as well.
"The Union" has spent all season looking like a bunch of guys standing around watching other guys work, lol
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
What has changed since the off-season when we thought we were deep at receiver?
I still maintain that we are trying to get too many people involved on offense. Its why in the passing game we struggle to get a 100yrd pass catcher every weekend. I know some will talk about how OBJ draws so much attention, but when the opposing defense is putting 5,6,7+ in the box, and continue to do so throughout the game, its because they aren't afraid of any of your pass catchers. Its great we have so many options, but it seems like the goal is to get as many involved even if its only a couple receptions each versus looking to see which of your guys might have the hot hand that day and riding that horse as far as it'll take you. I guess the most obvious example to me would be Njoku this year.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things." -Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
What has changed since the off-season when we thought we were deep at receiver?
I still maintain that we are trying to get too many people involved on offense. Its why in the passing game we struggle to get a 100yrd pass catcher every weekend. I know some will talk about how OBJ draws so much attention, but when the opposing defense is putting 5,6,7+ in the box, and continue to do so throughout the game, its because they aren't afraid of any of your pass catchers. Its great we have so many options, but it seems like the goal is to get as many involved even if its only a couple receptions each versus looking to see which of your guys might have the hot hand that day and riding that horse as far as it'll take you. I guess the most obvious example to me would be Njoku this year.
I have never thought our receivers were that good. OBJ was our best and he's gone bonkers. Some here have even tried to convince me how good Landry is, but it's the same old story. He is incapable of being a #1. What I'm hearing is perhaps OBJ free lances and maybe sure he gets open and frustrated but that's not what the offense is calls for. The receivers are supposed to be somewhere and Baker throws there but the receiver is somewhere else.
I'm not an NFL quarterback but to me this seems to be the hardest thing to adapt to. You don't necessarily look for the open receiver, you look at the defense and throw where it should go. Baker has done this. If you throw and the receiver isn't there, it's going to be incomplete and look like a poor throw from the QB. Maybe it's more of a "short" QB thing. I read about Steve Young throwing to spots all the time and then just listening to the crowd to know what happened. He never saw half the plays he made.
If the receiver isn't there it makes the QB look bad to all of us. But it may be the receivers fault and we just don't know. I mean all quarterbacks miss throws and we don't harp on them, Baker misses one and we decide he's just not good. As far as OBJ and most fans anytime Baker misses a throw its always Baker's fault. But the short of it, perhaps the receiver didn't do what he was supposed to.
OBJ is very talented and a good receiver but if our receivers don't play the way it was drawn up and aren't where they to be, how would any QB ever trust them? Maybe OBJ just didn't fit this offense?
Sometimes I wonder if those off-season get-togethers of Baker and receivers are counter-productive. Without a coach there to moniter things they may get a bit "off-script" with their route-running. Out-hyphen that dawgs!
What has changed since the off-season when we thought we were deep at receiver?
I still maintain that we are trying to get too many people involved on offense. Its why in the passing game we struggle to get a 100yrd pass catcher every weekend. I know some will talk about how OBJ draws so much attention, but when the opposing defense is putting 5,6,7+ in the box, and continue to do so throughout the game, its because they aren't afraid of any of your pass catchers. Its great we have so many options, but it seems like the goal is to get as many involved even if its only a couple receptions each versus looking to see which of your guys might have the hot hand that day and riding that horse as far as it'll take you. I guess the most obvious example to me would be Njoku this year.
I have felt for a while that Stefanski's biggest problem is that he outsmarts himself too often. The rest of the NFL is playing chess and he's trying to play quantum physics. How many times on 3rd and 2 or 3 where the whole playbook should be open, with maybe the best running game in the league, do we go shotgun empty backfield? Basically tell the LBs and safeties, "Hey, no need to respect the run, feel free to go straight into pass coverage." And... he does it in situations where he KNOWS he's going for it on 4th down anyway. How many times have we ever run the ball on consecutive plays, not on the goal line, with Chubb or Hunt and we didn't get at least 3 yards?
And I do tend to agree that Stefanski calls the game in such a way to get everybody some touches between all of the TEs, the few WRs, Chubb and Hunt... It's like nobody ever really gets into the flow of the game and starts "feeling it" because their touches are always limited and spaced apart. And just when somebody does make a series of good plays, they get taken out and don't get another chance for a couple more possessions...
I think he generally does a good job of keeping Chubb in the game even though he obviously wants to be throwing it, so I'll give him that.
But I'm not seeing us doing a good job of keeping our pass-catchers involved. If we were distributing, that would be one thing, but we seem to do this thing a lot where we forget about somebody, and then all of a sudden it's like, "oh yeah! he is out there." We've been doing this with Njoku a lot lately, and we've done it with Landry in the past. He's invisible and then we throw it to him and it works, so we keep throwing it to him.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
What has changed since the off-season when we thought we were deep at receiver?
I still maintain that we are trying to get too many people involved on offense. Its why in the passing game we struggle to get a 100yrd pass catcher every weekend. I know some will talk about how OBJ draws so much attention, but when the opposing defense is putting 5,6,7+ in the box, and continue to do so throughout the game, its because they aren't afraid of any of your pass catchers. Its great we have so many options, but it seems like the goal is to get as many involved even if its only a couple receptions each versus looking to see which of your guys might have the hot hand that day and riding that horse as far as it'll take you. I guess the most obvious example to me would be Njoku this year.
I have felt for a while that Stefanski's biggest problem is that he outsmarts himself too often. The rest of the NFL is playing chess and he's trying to play quantum physics. How many times on 3rd and 2 or 3 where the whole playbook should be open, with maybe the best running game in the league, do we go shotgun empty backfield? Basically tell the LBs and safeties, "Hey, no need to respect the run, feel free to go straight into pass coverage." And... he does it in situations where he KNOWS he's going for it on 4th down anyway. How many times have we ever run the ball on consecutive plays, not on the goal line, with Chubb or Hunt and we didn't get at least 3 yards?
And I do tend to agree that Stefanski calls the game in such a way to get everybody some touches between all of the TEs, the few WRs, Chubb and Hunt... It's like nobody ever really gets into the flow of the game and starts "feeling it" because their touches are always limited and spaced apart. And just when somebody does make a series of good plays, they get taken out and don't get another chance for a couple more possessions...
Rumor has it (I trust other X/O gurus on here more than my own opinion) that the empty backfield results in the defense tipping the QB to coverage assignments and the defense they're running. In defense of Kev, it's become more commonplace to start in that formation and then shuffle a RB, who is usually lined up in the slot or out wide, back into the backfield. In our defense (you and I), it should happen nearly every time so that the defense can't eliminate half the playbook before the play begins.
To many personal groupings .. The O has bn out of synk in to many games .. Like DC said " Thinks TO much .. Love the guy a tom . but wish he would give AVP a shot at the play calling .. Run the team and handle situations like OBJ head on quicker .. Penalty problems , ect. , ect ... Spend a bunch of time with guys like Schwartz and Felton ..
You guys are funny...after 20 Years two decades of suffering - we finally get a franchise QB and we struggle as a team playing 4-4 with a lot of adversity and you wish to throw him to the curb.. Put those other QBs in the same environment and the production of those QBs would be different. Baker is a spread em no huddle type of QB very accurate and positive results, he has been put in a very conservative disciplined West Coast Offense predicated on one positive tool "THE PLAY ACTION PASS" But we have no space for an air attack if we get behind and way too often our scheme is to play very conservative with the lead which would work if we had a top 3 defense. We got some pieces but no where close to the gel of a top 3 defense. Also the media sold us fans a load of crap telling us how loaded we were in weapons. The only loaded advantage we had was in our running attack and our OL. Our top WR OBJ has yet to practice with the team. There is no team sport like football where you need the pieces to fit and work together OBJ simply has not applied himself to make that happen. Baker meanwhile has tried to work with him but there has always been an excuse mostly valid but still never the less there is no gel within the system nor with Baker. I've tried to say no when its been shown how well our offense works without OBJ but when I look back it simply is a true fact. Is Higgins and DPJones better than OBJ in talent...no way but well let me say this about talent. JOSH GORDON" maybe the most talented WR there is but this is not a flag team where a great talent can simply walk on and do great things. OBJ is the most targeted Receiver this year for the Browns...I think 34 times??? That special something that one WR has with his QB just is not there. Baker has that with Landry and Higgins and this year DPJones they work well together and have production together.
I'm not happy with our coaching if I am unhappy about something. Why haven't we worked on our HOT reads there should be automatic routes ran on everfy blitz but I don't see that success out there??? WHY??? as a coach by now I would have these hot reads down and running smooth like a velvet glove. Not knowing stats but from views of what I see we are one of the most blitzed on team that I can see out there. That is why our screen passes are a thing of beauty cause in a sense its a route that is executed against a team over committing against our team. So that a screen pass is our best hot read schematic that we got even though its not designed specifically for that. Hopefully you all understand what I'm saying don't give me any crap about making excuses...I'm talking Browns football and my observations of what we have going out there. It is something that we have to work on - whether its a bomb or a slant I don't care it needs to be practiced over and over again so that when teams come at us with blitzes we make them pay.
We have one of the most accurate passers out there and we are not taking advantage of it. When I say accurate I'm not talking completion % but I'm talking about the placement of the ball so that the WRs get the ball in stride and without a break in action. We have that going. So when Stefanski tells OBJ to not bother coming to practice its comes at no surprise cause quite frankly when was the time he practiced anyways...its always DNP, DNP, DNP and then maypbe a L/P on friday. He is not Joe Thomas who did not miss a snap in 2 decades and who made the Pro bowl every year. He is not Joe Thomas who wrote the book on how to play LT so that in his last years would miss most of the practices. He is a WR who has yet to practice with the team.
Shame we did not trade him but we were trying to get this done so he would finally make an effort and become part of the team. Meanwhile note how this is being done AFTER THE TRADE DEADLINE so that he can get released and work a new contract out well I don't think Berry will play that game. either he plays hard for us or he doesn't play at all for us. After the year is done we will try to work something out. But I think without OBJ we can survive this year and win our division. Get into the playoffs and move on from OBJ, I so wanted it to work but we treated him as some Royalty and yet he did not contribute to the TEAM. This game Sunday is very big and we have to get our defense to control this game. Our team is starting to get healthy and we will be coming up to our bye week where we can heal the rest of the way and finish the season with a bang!
jmho
Baker is 15th in pass completion percentage. Of course, that does not take into account drops. But then that applies to every other QB. Baker did very well last year which was great and, imo, should have made the coaching staff tweak the offense to take more advantage of him. That being said imo the schedule, the film available on the offense, the coaching staff and the FO not dealing with the OBJ issue have all contributed to the team underperforming against expectations. Throw in the injuries (I happen to think it is b.s. that Baker’s shoulder does not impact his performance) and you get what we have so far.
Post-Bengals game: I'm just fine with our receivers. And Baker. And Stefanski's play-calling. Well, except for the Landry option thingy...take that out of the playbook.
Bonefish posted this in the Post Game Thoughts .... I figured this was Baker centric enough to post here.
In all honesty we probably need a new thread for Baker - Post OBJ, and with a shoulder that seems to be hurting and hampering him less than the initial 2-3 games after it was first hurt.
I'm still a believer. I still think the times when Baker was bad, there were influences beyond himself that impacted his play. I think Rookie Baker gave you a glimpse of the potential. I think the last 2/3 of last season is what Baker is. During that time he was a top #4 QB in the NFL based on PFF grades/performance. I hope he gets back to playing like that for the remainder of this season.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Acho hit this one out the park. obj really was the deadweight. we looked unstoppable, and thats without hunt.
i guess i was a victim of the name recognition. i really thought OBJ would take this team over the top. wrong on that one.
and this is with baker not at 100%. i really like to see a healthy baker/landry/DPJ. and finally njoku is getting well deserved hype.
as long as we maintain this O/D line like some other teams seem to, we have a shot every year with the guys we got.
but i will push back a bit on the superstar WR not being need on our team. cause jarvis is a star, and DPJ has superstar written all over him while being a team first guy.
Bakers the guy. he gets us to the playoffs again this season and the contract extension should be automatic.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
I think the word you're looking for instead of 'superstar' WR is 'diva' WR. Plenty of overlap between the two terms, but not necessarily the same thing.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
I think there is a big difference between signing a FA star WR and drafting/developing one. In the Bengals game Baker passed to eight different players and nobody got more than three targets. That's a balance that requires competent WR's, not a superstar WR. The bottom line is I don't think we will be paying 15 million to a FA WR any time in the near future. Not while you're running the Stefanski system.
It doesn't make sense for the numbers and future income potential of a big production WR in the FA market and it doesn't make sense for us to pay a player that much $$$ to get limited targets in a system that spreads the ball around as much as we do.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I agree, and the interesting thing is I keep hearing the talking heads (Saturday, SAS, Keyshawn, etc.) and others talking about how spreading the ball around is due to Stefanski's system, and the system is limited by the QB and fails to adhere to a WR's strengths.
However, when you look at Mayfield's best performances - even in previous systems (Haley, Kitchens) - it is when he spreads the ball around. Why fix something that isn't broken so that you can get the ball to a guy like Beckham. Who cares? If you get the ball down the field and keep moving the chains and scoring, I don't care if the ball goes to Joe Schmoe, who runs a 8.9 forty.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
I think the basis for the system is wonderful. When you spread the ball around it prevents the opposing defenses from focusing on one or two targets. They never have any idea where the ball is supposed to go. IMO it helps expand your offense, not limit it. It certainly limits the gaudy numbers we see some WR's get but not their strength. Their strengths are running routes and catching the ball.
I'm not one of those guys who is willing to blame OBJ for all of our woes. It's actually the QB's job to not get distracted by a single player to the point of creating a negative impact in his play. Each player is accountable for their performance on the field. Don't get me wrong. I'm glad OBJ is gone and Baker certainly seems to perform when OBJ is not on the field. I just don't buy into what some are selling that OBJ being on the field is a reasonable excuse for Baker playing like crap. But I'm a Browns fan, so whatever works and this seems to work.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Truth. OBJ free freelanced his patterns. I have hinted that on the board, I have said it on the board, now I am screaming it on the board. OBJ screwed us over. Plain and simple. The kid is talented beyond belief, BUT his ego is even bigger than his talent. He believes the world revolves around him and not the other way around. His lose is really not a loss at all.
My understanding is that OBJ is only due the veteran league minimum now that he's a free agent. I am certain that no team is going to sign him to a big deal so that could be a pinch point for any team wanting to sign him. Second and most importantly, if yu watch the Packers play, Rodgers is a QB that expects the rece3iver to be where he's supposed to be as he goes through his progressions. There's no way in hell OBJ stays on the field very long in GB if he thinks he's going to freelance his routes there. I've watched Rodgers go off on the #2 and #3 WR's when they are not where they are supposed to be and I've also watched guys who don't run the right routes get extended periods on time on the bench. That is not in OBJ's skill set to run what's expected so a marriage in GB could be even more messed up than it was in CLE. In a way, I want to see OBJ put in his place instead of everyone making excuses for him. Rodgers will do that you can bank on it!
Truth. OBJ free freelanced his patterns. I have hinted that on the board, I have said it on the board, now I am screaming it on the board. OBJ screwed us over. Plain and simple. The kid is talented beyond belief, BUT his ego is even bigger than his talent. He believes the world revolves around him and not the other way around. His lose is really not a loss at all.
Thanks for the confirmation. I think it was evident and all things pointed at that.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Acho hit this one out the park. obj really was the deadweight. we looked unstoppable, and thats without hunt.
i guess i was a victim of the name recognition. i really thought OBJ would take this team over the top. wrong on that one.
and this is with baker not at 100%. i really like to see a healthy baker/landry/DPJ. and finally njoku is getting well deserved hype.
as long as we maintain this O/D line like some other teams seem to, we have a shot every year with the guys we got.
but i will push back a bit on the superstar WR not being need on our team. cause jarvis is a star, and DPJ has superstar written all over him while being a team first guy.
Bakers the guy. he gets us to the playoffs again this season and the contract extension should be automatic.
Wiley is a loud mouth fool. I watched Brady win for years spreading the ball around to average recievers. I agree Baker is no superstar QB, but when a QB can run an offense efficiently, and that wins games, that means he is good. The other problem I had with Wiley, is, when did Baker claim he was balling out, the way Wiley was describing it? When was baker bragging on his play? This is what I hate about these shows, they are just a bunch of smack talking used to be players. They are the reason kids in pop warner and high school are dancing on the field mand pointing at the name on their jerseys. Wiley's generation of players push the "look at me" mentality. They are the ones who create players like OBJ, who think about their own stats and popularity, over the concept of a team. Him, Shannon Sharpe, and countless others, are why I never watch these shows full of condescending has beens.
I’m starting to wonder if this will turn into a little game between the FO and Baker. Baker has already started saying “I’m beat up, we’ll see if I can go next week” stuff. Today, Stefanski says he “likes where he’s at” …
Baker knows he’s costing himself money right now. Maybe the FO wants him to continue playing because of that now.
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
I’m starting to wonder if this will turn into a little game between the FO and Baker. Baker has already started saying “I’m beat up, we’ll see if I can go next week” stuff. Today, Stefanski says he “likes where he’s at” …
Baker knows he’s costing himself money right now. Maybe the FO wants him to continue playing because of that now.
Well, if that's the case, which I don't think it is, then he should be chomping at the bit to play against the Lions, not threatening to not play... they are near the bottom in yards and points allowed.. if there was a game where he could show out, this would be it.
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