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Originally Posted by oobernoober
I think the main intention of Warner's video was to show that there's more that goes into a good/bad throw than the throw itself, and more specifically, to show where other things went wrong in that first half that resulted in 'bad throws'.


Agreed. I do htink the Video and the breakdown was a 100% - Baker is not the problem. But specifically with that one game. Because you only have to go back and see other games where Baker has played much worse and was a much much bigger part of the problem.

The breakdown was also not a "WR's need to be perfect" ... I think it's a pretty common sentiment that "you got to catch the ball when it hits you in the hands" - and we dropped 3 in the breakdown. WR will drop balls - yes, but the sentiment is still "you gotta catch it". I liken it very much to the Baker fumble. Kurt said - it's going to happen, every QB has done it but he also said "You can't do that and it cost points.

I also thought it was detailed and very specific on routes and play design and what the QB should be seeing and reading and where the ball needs to go:

The one comment about an open receiver was - 'this guys open but thats the 5th read'. On the DPJ drop - he highlights that the two guys are open on the left but the play is designed for DPJ to be the first read and Baker throws that pass and hits DPJ in the hands. . . .

On the huge miss to Chubb - which watching live I am groaning about and blaming Baker - Kurt is letting anyone who wants to listen to a SuperBowl winning QB that Chubb's route calls for him to flatten out. Which is where Baker threw the ball.

On the double clutch - which is another moment I always go groan and think Baker is being indecisive - Kurt showed the route Landry ran, clearly shows that Baker is expecting him to run a hook and double clutches because Landry isn't running a hook.

And right at the start - the difference between a left leg first step and right leg first step cost Landry maybe 12-20 yards. Again a take I would not see by myself - and a testament to Kurt's attention to detail.

Hard not to see why the breakdown wasn't insightful. I guess if it doesn't include some Baker bashing some folks are just going to tune out.


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After seeing that video I came to the conclusion our O needs to practice a lot more. Doesn't seem like we're on the same page running these pass routes.

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I guess the Chubb route and the Jarvis route were issues. Kurt didn't know for sure what the deal with Jarvis was - he didn't say it was wrong, just said he didn't recognize it and that you could tell Baker was expecting something different. Certainly it was a smallish sample size with two clear issues where we weren't executing.

Another interesting couple of plays of note - the same route concept on the left. One in Cover 1 and one and one in Cover 2. Baker read Cover 1 and threw to the guy that was supposed to be open - and in Cover 2 he didn't look to the same guy as he should have been covered underneath.


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This is apropos of nothing, but in the video I noticed several instances where we had multiple receivers in the same part of the field. I have always marvelled at how open opposition receivers were when we're on defense, and the exact opposite when we were on O. Our guys always seemed to be tightly covered and immediately tackled after catches, while oppo guys had no defenders near them, and got a lot of YAC. My layman's brain wonders why we don't run patterns that spread the field a bit more?

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Flashes, certain attributes, character, attitudeā€¦ it all translates. Not to mention, his history, accolades, and that he has a top five arm and accuracy, when not injured. But hey bro, bash away if it makes you feel better somehow.


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jc...

I'm glad to hear someone (Curt Warner) explain some of the finer points of QB play and pointing out how the failure to execute some of the finer points can impact the success of failure of a pass play. Most fans and 100% of the TALKING HEADS fail to recognize that there are legit reasons that some pass plays fail and while Baker is taking most of the criticism from the "uneducated" (in a football sense) others can be at fault for the failure of a pass play.

One of my questions..12 games into the season and some of our players are still making mistakes ...such as Baker's 4 step dropback vs what should be a 3 step drop and how that little change can affect the timing of a pass play. Stefanski and Van Pelt are responsible for correcting those little mistakes that can result in a BIG mistake if the timing is so far off that the defender is able to INT that pass.

THE LITTLE THINGS MATTER...and they should not be happening at this point of the season.

The Chubb pass route in the flat that I had no idea was not run properly by Chubb, who rounded off his route instead of making a flat, sharp cut to the sidelines. Because of Curt Warner's explanation, we are able to see how just one minor mistake results in the failure to complete that pass. No doubt, most blamed Baker rather than Chubb.

WHY ARE THE BROWNS COACHES ALLOWING THIS KIND OF SLOPPY PLAY, especially now that the team is 12 games into the season.

THE LITTLE THINGS DO MATTER and why isn't the Browns coaching staff correcting them?




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What if the Berry has decided he wants to move on from Baker?

First he would to have a clear option available as a preceived upgrade.

Jimmy G, Jameis Winston, Watson, the draft? Are there really options that are obvious upgrades?

None of the above are really appealing. Watson is an upgrade however, his situation is very cloudy.

Russell Wilson? His trade list includes: Cowboys, Saints, Raiders, Bears. The only real option from that list would be the Saints. The others have their guy.

If the Saints wanted to make that trade. What would it take? Lots of first rounders. Seattle would have no quarterback. Winston will be a free agent in 2022 from my understanding. So, he would not be a trade chip. Hard to believe Seattle would make a deal there.

If, Berry wanted Wilson he would first have to convince Wilson to accept a trade to Cleveland. He might accept it. We have a great OL and we have great running backs. We can get better receivers. We have a good defense.

What would a trade to Seattle look like?

Baker Mayfield to Seattle with draft picks. First off Seattle would have to want Baker. Who knows maybe they would believe Baker's future is bright?

Second what draft picks? A first for sure, and probably more. Maybe a second first in 2023? Maybe a 1st, and second in 22 and a lower round?

Hard to say what would work for both teams?

I would make a trade for Wilson if the draft pick add were reasonable. It would not be with two number ones.
=============================================================================

Berry and KS would have to reach a decision that Baker is not good enough to lead the team to a Super Bowl and Wilson is.

IMO I do not think they have reached that conclusion. However, if this season goes really sour and Baker's play is the reason?

Who knows?

Just thinking out loud.

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I think you're looking at it from too much of a 'us vs them' standpoint. I think he called out Mayfield when warranted ("got him" on a ball that could've been placed better but was still completed). I think he framed the intent of the video really well (called out everyone piling on Baker, called out Baker on the specific plays, but also showed that there's a lot more going on... also highlighted where he himself was unsure about why a play turned out the way it did).

Maybe it's just me, but I am MUCH more open to data/viewpoint when it's presented in such a transparent way.


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Regardless of Berry's opinion of Baker - I would bet that he is doing hi due diligence and looking at all options. I don't believe there is a viable candidate in the draft. That's probably one option to scratch. Although - I wouldn't be against looking at a 3rd or 4th round project, jettisoning Case and his huge salary hit, spending that money on a WR FA and drafting a WR in the first/second round.

As you say - who knows - but realistically the most probable future is Baker playing his 5th year option in Cleveland and a new contract pending his performance next year as our starter.


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I would imagine a trade with Seattle would include Baker. Same for Houston.

I know Baker has his warts, and I'm not saying fan perspective should factor into any trades, much less one this huge.... but you are going to need a massive pair of cajones to stand behind swapping out Baker for JimmyG.


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Of course a deal with Seattle would include Baker.

Berry has to look at all options.

We have plenty of very good players on the Browns. The draft for a quarterback is a long range gamble that means you will not be competitive for years even if you are clairvoyant in getting a quarterback later in the first round. Good luck with that. Top five picks fail all the time.

Options that are clear upgrades from Baker. Not really any that are a sure thing.

Wilson is. But getting him requires a lot to happen and things outside of what can be controlled.

Wilson and Seattle seems like a split can happen. He may want out and Seattle would have to be in tune to those sentiments.

Other than Wilson I see no other viable option to replace Baker.

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Mayfield to Seattle, where he goes on to win the next 5 Super Bowlsā€¦


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My major issue with a Wilson trade...he is already on the down side of the curve with next year being his 11th season and will going on 34 yrs of age. Injuries are beginning to become an issue as Wilson has already missed 4 games so far in 2021 season and since returning as the Seahawks starting QB, the Hawks have lost every game.

Is Wilson still in recovery mode or did the surgery fail...OR, is Wilson in need of more surgery to have a chance to return to 100%?

Do the Browns risk trading for a QB who is DAMAGED GOODS?

Just for everyone's information, Wilson's surgery was not on just "one injury"...Wilson had "two injuries" that the surgeon was trying to repair...!!

WAS THAT SURGERY CONSIDERED A SUCCESS...?

If you ask "that the question" to the team attempting to pass on a 11 yr veteran QB PROBLEM to another team, the answer is going to be WILSON IS READY TO GO.

To that team attempting to fleece a team that has dreams of Wilson leading (the Browns) to their first Super Bowl WIN..that franchise with STARS IN THEIR EYES...a tade for Wilson completes THEIR DREAM.

I have one question...when have the Browns EVER DEVELOPED THEIR OWN QB TALENT...?




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Teddy Bridgewater is an UFA after this season.


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That would hurt bad.

I am not proposing a trade. I am good with Baker.

I am trying to point out what options are realistic "if" Berry intends to look at options.

I firmly believe we can win a championship with Baker. I like him and support him.

At the same time one has to be prepared and look at all options if things good wrong.

We have to keep in mind if no deal is struck with Baker after next year. He could want out.


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Before I say what I'm about to say, I want to make clear that I'm not advocating we replace Baker. We still have him for another year for eval (as Berry sorta alluded to), and while Baker has his warts, improving on him will require a massive trade or a massive amount of risk.


I think the nature of our offense is such that it doesn't necessarily require a world-beater at the QB position. I think it works well to maximize a guy with certain skills (able to execute a play and hit a WR on time and on target when the defense is loaded up vs the run). Baker has had trouble with post-snap reads and some basic QB technique (footwork), but he can also make the wild throws/plays when he's "on". I wonder if KS and Berry would, if given the chance, swap some of Baker's big-play ability and cannon-of-an-arm for a guy that's a little more heady, can see the field better but can't necessarily make those highlight throws. Just thinking out loud. I'm still a Baker fan.

But via that perspective it makes getting a guy like Bridgewater or even Jimmy G make a little more sense. When JG was at his best, he was riding/building off of a very good running game hitting on plays when the defense was focused elsewhere. Bridgewater is a very smart QB that won't hold an offense back, but also won't put one on his shoulders (as we saw for ourselves).

I guess I'm just subconsciously preparing myself for some serious upheaval.


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Mayfield to Seattle, where he goes on to win the next 5 Super Bowlsā€¦

I think Seattle is on the wane. I'd be more pissed if Baker went to Pittsburgh and then came back and played us twice a year like Haden.


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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Mayfield to Seattle, where he goes on to win the next 5 Super Bowlsā€¦

... Baker went to Pittsburgh and then came back and played us twice a year like Haden.

I was pissed when the Haden ordeal went down, but with hindsight, if Baker went there and played like Haden has I'd be fine with it.


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
I think you're looking at it from too much of a 'us vs them' standpoint. I think he called out Mayfield when warranted ("got him" on a ball that could've been placed better but was still completed). I think he framed the intent of the video really well (called out everyone piling on Baker, called out Baker on the specific plays, but also showed that there's a lot more going on... also highlighted where he himself was unsure about why a play turned out the way it did).

Maybe it's just me, but I am MUCH more open to data/viewpoint when it's presented in such a transparent way.

Selecting the best half of a game Mayfield played while ignoring the other half is not what I consider transparent to mean. Let me repeat this for what feels like the 100th time. I've never said Mayfield was the entire problem. I've said he is one of the problems. This is a Mayfield thread so my focus is and will remain on Mayfield. The fact he even claimed Mayfield was the problem on some plays and could have even been the problem on some other plays he wasn't sure of actually makes my point. And that was "the good half".

Let's get this straight because people keep getting perceptions that are simply not true. I have always maintained that Baker possesses the physical weapons to be a good NFL QB. I've stated that we've seen both good Baker and bad Baker. I have said that we will need to see more of Baker next season to truly know what we have. Now just in case anyone has missed it, that's not calling for Bakers head. That's not calling for us to move on. That's giving us all a chance to see what a healthy Baker can do next year. That's giving the FO a chance to see the same thing. That's giving Baker the opportunity to negotiate an extension from a place of strength if he is playing well. I don't see how any of that is an attack on Baker.


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Mayfield to Seattle, where he goes on to win the next 5 Super Bowlsā€¦

rofl



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IMO Wilson is a better version of Baker and has years to play.

His injuries would of course be examined and have to be medically cleared.

All factors have to be considered.

All I am doing is trying to validate what are realistic options.

Again I like Baker. I want him to succeed in Cleveland.

But it is foolish IMO to put your head in the sand. There are factors that have to be considered.


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I certainly do not advocate we make any change at this time. To get Wilson would take a kings ransom and mortgage the future. If we are considering paying a fortune and future resources for a viable QB, you will always find options to do that. That's not a move you have to make now. I'm not someone who believes that Bakers injuries play no part in his performance. How much it plays a part is anyone's guess and everyone claiming they know how much or how little of a part it's playing are using strictly conjecture.

But either way my hope is to see a healthy Baker next year before we make any rash decisions or make any hasty moves at the QB position.


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Again I like Baker. I want him to succeed in Cleveland.

NO BONE...I'm not buying your comment above. You would flush Mayfield without a question asked if the Browns traded away the future for an injured Wilson.

Damn the comments from a Super Bowl winning QB who pointed out FOR YOU and everyone to see, that what is presently going on in Cleveland cannot be blamed on Mayfield.

You sire, Bone, have those stars in your eyes that an injured Wilson who had not one injury to his throwing hand, but had two injuries to his throwing hand that the surgeons attempted to fix...you ignore the facts with DREAMS, THAT A 11 YR VETERAN ON THE DOWN SIDE OF HIS CAREER IS YOUR ANSWER TO A BROWNS SUPER BOWL.

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Before we get to the off season / silly season, can we all just agree that neither Aaron Rodgers nor Russell Wilson are coming to Cleveland? What other "top tier" QB would we replace Baker Mayfield with? Matt Ryan? But is he really still top tier? I don't think he is. Baker was better than Ryan last year, and pretty close to the same this year. In 2021 Ryan has a higher TD % and QBR, but Mayfield has a lower Int % and higher QB Rate. I think its apparent that Ryan has slipped into the middle tier of NFL QBs, which is also where I put Mayfield. Ryan is going to be 38 yrs old next May and on the downside of his career, IMO. Baker will be 27, with his ceiling - whatever it is - still well within reach, again IMO.

Point being, I am not interested in any exchange of middle tier QBs, not Ryan and not Garoppolo, because I think Baker's ceiling is higher than anyone with whom we could reasonably expect to get to replace him.

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You, like some others refuse to admit that Warner did actually point out that Mayfield is part of the problem and that he focused on only one half of the game while ignoring the other.


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I agree. Mac. I don't want Wilson either for the reasons you mentioned. I believe we can win with Baker. I don't see Baker ever being elite but he is at least good enough IMO. We need a couple of WR's who can stretch the field. If AB sees a QB that has potential then by all means draft him but paying what it will cost in future draft picks to land Wilson is a recipe for disaster. JMO

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You, like some others refuse to admit that Warner did actually point out that Mayfield is part of the problem and that he focused on only one half of the game while ignoring the other.

Question - if someone says "the problem presently going on in Cleveland cannot be blamed on Mayfield." - does that mean Baker has none of the blame or does it mean he doesn't deserve all the blame? When I read it, I interpret it as Baker isn't the entire problem while acknowledging he has been part of the problem.


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Baker > Ryan, Bridgewater, Jimmy G, and currently the 34 year old injured finger Wilson.

Rodgers is not coming nor is Watson.

Baker is the man for the foreseeable future - get used to it.

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Question - if someone says "the problem presently going on in Cleveland cannot be blamed on Mayfield." - does that mean Baker has none of the blame or does it mean he doesn't deserve all the blame? When I read it, I interpret it as Baker isn't the entire problem while acknowledging he has been part of the problem.

Which is exactly what I've been saying all along. The people I take issue with are those trying to blame everyone but Baker. I think mac is a prime example of that. I will also repeat for what also seems like the 100th time. Warner is basing that on one half of one game. What we have seen is a three week pattern of which Warner has chosen one half of one game to make an analysis on. As I've said before, if that's what someone wants to hear, they'll grab onto that and try to ignore the other two and a half games. If they want an objective look they will realize that can't be determined solely on one half of one of those three games.


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Baker is part of the problem but as I said in a previous post for some reason our guys are not all on the same page with our passing game. That problem has to be ironed out with meetings and practice reps.

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That simple is not true.

If you were to go back and read all that I have written in regards to Baker.

You would know it is not true.

Even on this thread I thought I made it clear. This was an exercise that "if Berry were to be looking at options to replace Baker what realistic options are there?

IMO as stated Wilson is the only real option. The other available options would not be an upgrade.

Next year there is an option for Berry to keep Baker. After that he is a free agent.

We do not have a crystal ball about how this season will end.

GM's are paid to consider the big picture which includes planning for the future.

I also stated that a Wilson trade includes factors outside of the control the Browns would have.

As far as Wilson do you know he is on the downside of his career? Brady, Rodgers, and Brees accomplished plenty past the age of Wilson.

IMO Wilson is a great quarterback. If you believe Baker is better than Wilson so be it.
IMO Wilson has proven himself to be great. Baker "so far" has not.

I like Baker and I do believe as it stands today. I would not trade him. I layed out the trade I would make and the conditions of that trade.

That in no way says I don't support keeping Baker.



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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Selecting the best half of a game Mayfield played while ignoring the other half is not what I consider transparent to mean.

He called this out just prior to bringing up the tape and said why ("people are saying how can you get 3 INTs and only score so many points"). His video was all about addressing a narrative that's already out there with film. You say Baker Mayfield isn't the entire problem, and then dismiss any legit evidence to the contrary out of hand.


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Could it be OBJ messed up our passing game more than any of us thought? I'm not saying it's true but when he came back things really went south.

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What I dismiss is trying to claim that breaking down one half of a single games film tells a compete story of the last three games. If you think you can diagnose an entire picture of three games based on one half of football in one of those games, so be it. I'm not dismissing any evidence. I'm putting that evidence in the context that it is one sixth of the evidence of a three game stretch. Nothing more and nothing less.


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This is the type of comments that proves my point. Even weeks after he's gone people are trying to insinuate the ghost of OBJ may be the problem.


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He was most definitely part of the problem, unless you think a WR going rogue is not a problem.

There were and are many reasons for why the offense has underperformed and they have been clearly stated. It is not one thing or one person.

1. WRs not running the correct routes.
2. Receivers (TEs, WRs, RBs) not running the routes properly.
3. QB not delivering or setting up properly to deliver ball on time.
4. Injuries to O-line.
5. Injuries to starting RBs.
6. QB playing injured and not 100%. Effects mobility, pocket awareness, and throwing mechanics.
7. Play calling at times has been questionable.

It has been a team effort and it will take a team effort to correct.

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If you're asking if I believe that OBJ never lived up to expectations I certainly agree. What WR's have not been running the right routes or properly? Every team in the NFL deals with injuries. But this is not in any way, shape or form a serious question......
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Could it be OBJ messed up our passing game more than any of us thought?

Here is what was being said by many posters. "Our offense performs better when OBJ is not on the field". Can you tell me how much better our offense has been over the past three weeks with OBJ gone?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Hammer
He was most definitely part of the problem, unless you think a WR going rogue is not a problem.

There were and are many reasons for why the offense has underperformed and they have been clearly stated. It is not one thing or one person.

1. WRs not running the correct routes.
2. Receivers (TEs, WRs, RBs) not running the routes properly.
3. QB not delivering or setting up properly to deliver ball on time.
4. Injuries to O-line.
5. Injuries to starting RBs.
6. QB playing injured and not 100%. Effects mobility, pocket awareness, and throwing mechanics.
7. Play calling at times has been questionable.

It has been a team effort and it will take a team effort to correct.

Instead of trying to nit pick at posters and making assumptions - I think this is a good list. I think everyone - Baker fanboy or Baker sceptic would agree. Coz I don't believe there is anyone anywhere that says or thinks all the issues are on everyone except the QB.

I think the only discussion or variable is the proportion of blame that is going to be attributed to each issue -- I also think there are a few fans who believe that to be a Franchise QB Baker should - despite injury and all these issues - somehow drive the team to success regardless of what's going on and whether or not his left arm ends up being torn off.

Based on what i have seen Baker accomplish with a 1-31 team... and what he did last year when finally given the best chance / situation to succeed - Baker's actual talent and ability is the very least of the issues. They are still real - but they are the least impactful.

That's just me.

Edit - I'll add these which are sort of covered but not in detail:

- I think Stefanski's scheme is too one dimensional and doesn't allow for a response when we get down.
- I think Stefanski's schemes sometimes have too many receivers crowded into too small of an area sometimes.
- I think the WR core is below average. Especially when we have injuries. When Njoku is your deep threat - you are in trouble!

Last edited by mgh888; 12/03/21 02:58 PM.

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I will once again remind everyone that we were not the offensive juggernaut that seems to be the memory of the last nine regular season games last season or against the Chiefs in the playoffs. In 2020...

Nov. 15th verses the Texans we scored 10 points.

Nov. 22nd we scored 22 points against the Eagles.

Dec. 20th we scored 20 points against the Giants.

Dec. 27th we scored 16 points against the Jets.

And in our playoff game against the Chiefs we scored 17 points.

If we're going to spread blame around I think we also need to spread the credit around. Baker was an ingredient in some of our wins but he wasn't lighting it up week in and week out by carrying the team on his back. Obviously the defense was the key factor in a lot of those W's.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I am not sure I am seeing your point here exactly?

We are talking about the offensive struggles... those performances are why were are having this discussion no? Do you think someone is posting about Baker and Offensive woes AND they still think we are offensive juggernauts?


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