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This is last years games, not this year. It was in reference to these comments by you.....
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Based on what i have seen Baker accomplish with a 1-31 team... and what he did last year when finally given the best chance / situation to succeed - Baker's actual talent and ability is the very least of the issues. They are still real - but they are the least impactful.

My point was that often times our memories do not objectively reflect reality. It's certainly true that Baker had some great performances last season. But if one breaks it down it's easy to see that it was sporadic. More good than bad to be sure. More than enough to show that the physical skill set is there. Many of our wins, even when looking at last season weren't by someone carrying the team on his back. Many of those wins were team accomplishments, not Baker accomplishments.

I was actually surprised by what I found. My memory had us being far more effective offensively and scoring more points the last half of last season. But that isn't the reality I found when I took a look.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Pit maybe if we had a deep threat or 2 and KS would allow Baker to throw long it would open things up and stretch the field. That right there would make our O more productive or at least it should.

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That's fair. I haven't thought much about last season and how we won so much as knowing that in the last 9 or 10 games of the season which included a playoff win - Baker was graded out by PFF as being a top 5 QB (think he was 3rd over that period). Regardless of how we won, I look at that large sample size and believe it to be representative of Baker's ability. Just my take. I've mentioned elsewhere - some look at the worst Baker has played and seem to assume that's his level. I look at the best he's played (over an extended period) and believe that to be a better indicator of what his ceiling might be.


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I'm hoping that you don't include me in the group that "some look at the worst Baker has played and seem to assume that's his level". Ive certainly given him credit for having the physical skill set and wish to see how he performs next year when healthy. Actually, I'm not sure who you would be talking about that thinks what we've seen over the past few weeks is his level.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Pit maybe if we had a deep threat or 2 and KS would allow Baker to throw long it would open things up and stretch the field. That right there would make our O more productive or at least it should.

So what WR's did we have last year when Baker was completing the deep ball that we don't have this year other than OBJ? What WR had success last year with catching the deep when we were winning that we no longer have? And where did you get the information that Stefanski won't let Baker throw the deep ball? In case you're wondering why I don't understand some of the reasons given this is a good place to start.


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Again, it sure sounds like you're dismissing it. Maybe I'm just misreading your tone (easy to do going back and forth on a board).

So in this regard, how is breaking down just 1 half of football (what Warner did) any different than cherry-picking plays over a longer period (what pretty much everyone else has done)? In fact, most of the time they put those same type of statements ("this is my argument and now let me show you evidence that backs it up") before they show snippets of film.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
This is the type of comments that proves my point. Even weeks after he's gone people are trying to insinuate the ghost of OBJ may be the problem.
I agree. OBJ was only a portion of the problem when he was here (and how much was debatable). What's not debatable is that he's no longer part of the problem.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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So you're trying to dismiss that breaking down all three games in their entirety wouldn't give you a much clearer picture as to what's going on here than one half of a single game? I mean seriously?

In actuality it's me who is wanting to see all of the evidence rather than cherry pick by only looking at one sixth of it.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I think people hang on to whoever speaks the narrative they wish to hear.
If you... say that.. into a mirror. Does space/time explode.
(With Love) wink


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Who has broken down every game in its entirety?


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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So let me see if I got this straight. You seem to believe, from what I have seen at least, that one half of a three game stretch tells the entire story of what has happened over that three game stretch? While I believe that you would have to break down all of those three games in their entirety to get the answers. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. There are certainly pay sites that break down every game. I however do not pay for those sites. It seems that no poster on this board pays for them either or doesn't want to show us what those sites actually found. I have no idea which.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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I listened to an interview today that I thought was interesting.

I can't find it now.

But the questioned posed was: "if you could fix one thing with the Browns right now; what would you fix?"

IMO as I look at the offensive struggles the Browns have had. Seven points in the fourth quarter in the last seven games.

What sticks out to me is the lack of an outside receiver threat. The Ravens game made it crystal clear. They loaded up the box and dared us to beat them outside.

We couldn't do it. Jarvis is not a deep threat. He is our best receiver. DPJ has made some big catches. However, he is a young guy who is developing. He is not a number one receiver right now.

We don't have a receiver who any team fears. Nobody who will draw double coverage. Not a guy who will be an all pro this season. When we are behind late and need a touchdown or more.

We are in trouble. I heard AVP echo that. Some will want to lay it on Baker. Baker needs help in order to have success.

He is not going to carry a team with no talent around him. He needs time to throw. He needs a running game. And he needs an above average receiver unit.

You can't expect Baker or any other qb to be able to throw deeper routes if guys are not open. Look at Brady's numbers this year when Antonio Brown is not playing. They go way down. Burrow with Chase and Higgins.

You want to come from behind late in the fourth quarter? You can't be one dimensional. What did KS do when we were third and long late? He called a draw play. When that failed we punted.

Losing Conklin was a huge loss both in the run game but gigantic in the pass game. We don't have the tools to spread out a defense and go to a fast pace passing attack.

It will be interesting to see how we game plan next week. You can't do the same thing and expect different results.

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I asked "Who has broken down every game in its entirety?"

and you somehow twist that into this...?

Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You seem to believe, from what I have seen at least, that one half of a three game stretch tells the entire story of what has happened over that three game stretch?

Whenever you do want to have an honest conversation about this, I'll be here.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
So in this regard, how is breaking down just 1 half of football (what Warner did) any different than cherry-picking plays over a longer period (what pretty much everyone else has done)? In fact, most of the time they put those same type of statements ("this is my argument and now let me show you evidence that backs it up") before they show snippets of film.

This is what I was responding to. That and your comment about cherry picking. From my perspective it seems as though you wish to site and claim validity to Warner's comments and while I do as well, I think it only covers one half of a game out of a three game stretch and it may very well not apply to the remaining games or even the other half of the game he broke down.

I did also cover the fact that there are sites that break down games in their totality. I'll try to be more clear over what I'm responding to so we don't have future miscommunications.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I'm hoping that you don't include me in the group that "some look at the worst Baker has played and seem to assume that's his level". Ive certainly given him credit for having the physical skill set and wish to see how he performs next year when healthy. Actually, I'm not sure who you would be talking about that thinks what we've seen over the past few weeks is his level.

No I don't - but there are many that do. And many fans from other teams don't know JACK and many talking heads know JACK and have decided the book on Baker is written ... it ain't.


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That makes more sense. Sorry for the extra sass.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Stephen A. had Dan Orlovsky on his show.

Dan O made an interesting point that I believe is 100% correct.

He said he doesn't like the term franchise quarterback. He breaks quarterbacks into four categories.

1.) Quarterbacks you win because of

2.) Quarterbacks you with

3.) quarterbacks you win despite of

4.) quarterbacks you can't win with


Baker currently is in category two.

That makes perfect sense to me.

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Agreed and we can win with a QB like that as long as he has good players around him. We need a couple of better WR's that can stretch the field.

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I agree

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Bone I enjoy reading your posts and agree with much of what you say. I feel that with those 2 WR's I mentioned and I have no idea who they might be, along with a run stuffing DL we can be much better. We could use another top level LB and with the further development of JOK and Jacob Phillips we can have a D that would be dominant consistently. JMO

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
That makes more sense. Sorry for the extra sass.

No problem. It's easy for the reader to get confused of the intent and easy for the messenger to send a message someone else can find confusing. That's why God invented the telephone. wink It's much easier to gain intent and clarify things by voice than it is in print.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Thanks HD.

It is hard to say how this year will end. I am disappointed so far.

Looking back I think a lot was expected from Odell. When he didn't play in the first game. I was not good with that.
The only reason given was. He didn't think he was ready. All we had heard up to that point was how good he looked.

So, not long after the drama started. Odell forces his hand. DPJ missed time. Jarvis missed time. Chubb missed time and then Hunt. Then Conklin goes down, comes back and is gone for the year.

Wills? I am not seeing it with him. I expected him in his second year to be really good. He has not looked good.

So, this year may become a step back instead of a step forward.

However we have added talent especially Newsome and JOK. I expect Clowney back. McDowell was an incredible find. We have lots of good talent.

Whatever, happens this year I will remain optimistic. Both Berry and Stefanski are young smart guys who will figure this out. Expect upgrades at receiver. More OL help. As well as any place they can improve.

Baker IMO will remain and their plans will be adjusted.

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Bone...THAT WAS DAMN GOOD...!!




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It's almost like a sophomore slump for the whole team and coaches but really the injuries had the most to do with it. Well we'll be picking a lot higher in the draft than any of us had anticipated. Very little consolation though.

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I don't put a lot of stock in late round picks ; DPJ , Swartz , Felton and such .. But Berry did draft Wils and Hudson , cause for concern ?

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Wills was good his 1st year so the potential is there plus he's been hurt most of the year. We have one of the best O-line coaches in the league in Bill Callahan. I'm sure he will give wills a lot of attention.

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No concern. No GM hits on every pick.

The later the round the more the odds fall. You hope that those later picks are guys who develop.

Schwartz so far has not contributed. However, he came in raw. He had straight line speed and not much else.

I don't know if he will ever turn out. Coverage in the NFL is way better than college. Nobody gets open like they do in college. You have to fight for it in the pros. You have to win contested balls. I like physical receivers. I watch those guys that win 50/50 balls.

Everybody is fast. If you have great speed with quickness to separate and you have hands then you can win. Tyreek Hill is like that.
Not many guys have that. So, you have to be physical. Have to high point the ball and have great hands.

Felton has shown some skills. He has good hands and he can shake after the catch. We have to many guys in front of him.
Hudson is one of those you hope will develop.

Wills has the skills of a first rounder. He has the coaching to develop. I don't know about him?

He looks good on run plays. He has not been good in pass protection.

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I don't get people knocking Wills. He has been hurt, so that has slowed him, but when he is out, the curve goes down significantly. I believe down the road, he will be considered a very good LT.

As for Schwartz, the kid is frail, and goes down very easy. Felton has shown one move, the spin. Now it doesn't work anymore. he has good hands and quickness, but he is putrid on kick returns. He constantly runs backwards. Guys like Cribbs, caught the ball and went forward, none of this trying to run to the edge. This is the pros, the guys chasing you are probably just as fast, or faster than you.

As for receivers, I like big and fast. Tired of these short speedsters. Just like I said above, in this league, the guy covering you could be as fast or faster than you are. Being big, and physical is needed, along with speed. We always seem to have either the small guys, who are supposed to be quick, or the taller guys, that are not physically dominant. DPJ , IMO, is going to become one these guys. He's not real big, but he can be physical, and challenge for the ball. Hopefully, that is what is on Berry's plate for the next draft. It's the missing piece, I think.

I hope Hudson, is one of those guys that sits a couple years and learns, then comes in year three polished and ready to go. He, and Hance have both been moved around a lot. Hard to hone your skills at one position, when at a drop of a dime, you could be playing anywhere on the line. Building the proper strength, and working with Callahan can do wonders.


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The knock on Wills is that he's not Joe Thomas. He's plenty good, he's just not one of the Greats.
He'll be fine.


Browns is the Browns

... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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What Baker needs most is receivers like Schwartz...speed. This is key. You fill in the possession receiver positions with TEs. If the primary position is RB, you play two-speed guys on the outside to stretch the field and make teams pay trying to fill the box.

Right now teams with two good corners can fill the box against Cleveland's offense. THIS is what hurts Baker. He is forced to pass into tight windows facing heavy pressure.

Three or four speed-receivers forces teams to defend. They don't need to be superstars. Speed and more speed.

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FWIW, I do believe that Baker is part of the problem.. What I don't know is why? We've seen this guy light it up one week and the very next week, lay an egg.

Is it Stefanski?
Is it the receivers?
Is it the injuries to Baker?
Is it the line play?

I guess what I'm saying is that there isn't a clearly defined answer.. I don't see it anyway.

Baker is our QB this year.. Perhaps next. I have faith in him and Stefanski and Berry. Let it be, I have faith it will work out. Can't say I know how.. Not at this point. But I"m pretty sure that has nothing to do with Bringing in Jimmy G or Wilson or the cry baby from Green bay.


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The Browns have three years of control on Baker.

They picked up his fifth year option for 2022.

After 2022 they can franchise him for two years.

Honestly, I see no reason why they would not keep him on a year to year basis.

All other options involve higher risk. The draft? Please that is the highest risk.

Free agents. There are no free agents that would be an improvement.

Trades? All trade options would require the player accepting the deal and loss of high draft picks.

I don't see it happening. They know all there is to know about Baker. Both good and bad as well as his intangibles.


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Agreed. We have Baker and right now, as you stated in your post, there aren't really any viable options unless we really want to mortgage the future. From what I've heard on talk shows Rodgers and Wilson won't come here. The draft? forget it. We weren't able to draft anybody good for nearly 20 years. Baker is our guy we just need to get him a couple of speed WR's.

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They do know all there is to know about Baker. And whether they move forward with him as our QB after next season will depend on what they know based on his first five seasons. Both the good and the bad. I have no idea if they will view him as a QB who can "take them where we want to go" or not. But if not there would be no reason for them to pay a huge franchise tag price for two more seasons. If they do think he can "take them where we want to go" there would be no reason not to sign a long term contract extension to keep him here long term. If they can't figure it out based on five years of work they'll never figure it out. Next year will be his third year in the same system. They'll know.


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watching the pitt vs balti game looks like we are a little too rough on Baker? Shannon sharp screaming about baker and his measly 3 stinking points in the first half


I`m good with Baker... Playoffs is good enough for me.
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Originally Posted by lionchamp29
watching the pitt vs balti game looks like we are a little too rough on Baker? Shannon sharp screaming about baker and his measly 3 stinking points in the first half

Remember DPJ dropped a ball right in his hands on the 10 yard line on the first drive.


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I've noticed quite a bit of bad play by top QBs this year. Is it something league wide? Could it be the change in practices, being less physical and too far off of game speed?


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
I've noticed quite a bit of bad play by top QBs this year. Is it something league wide? Could it be the change in practices, being less physical and too far off of game speed?

If defenses do what they always do: adjust.

We talk about all the QBs, yet look how important running the football still is. That’s why I love football, cause both sides find a way to balance each other.

QBs are having to really prove if their talented or not. Look how tight the AFC is. There’s still a realistic chance for us to win the division. Even though an extra team gets into the playoffs, there’s only 1 team who gets a bye, meaning every game just got even more important than previous seasons.

I’m resetting and hoping for a 2nd half run after this bye. Baker has got some rest, some of the more nagging injuries should be lessened/gone.

Now it’s his time to prove if he’s a franchise QB or not. 5 games left, what’s he gonna show us?

I hope greatness.


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I'd take subpar winners on a lucky street if it gets us a spot in the playoffs. Limp in, luck in, back in, just get in.


Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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pretty easy routes not bad for a HS team saywhat

come on SKI be a little more creative and your special trick plays suck!


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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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