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So does passing at a 50% comlpletion ratio.


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Originally Posted by bonefish
Stephen A. had Dan Orlovsky on his show.

Dan O made an interesting point that I believe is 100% correct.

He said he doesn't like the term franchise quarterback. He breaks quarterbacks into four categories.

1.) Quarterbacks you win because of

2.) Quarterbacks you with

3.) quarterbacks you win despite of

4.) quarterbacks you can't win with


Baker currently is in category two.

That makes perfect sense to me.


The best Baker is at category 2
The average Baker is between category 3 - 2
We have had plenty of Baker at 4 but very few at one.

Question is how many games did Baker win? 7 game winning drives if I remember correctly, Case Keenun has 10, Jared Goff has 9.

He is not stellar, he does not have the locker room, why keep him?
IMHO he is Timmy 2.0, the worst that can happen to a team, not good enough to succeed, not bad enough to get cut, with the baggage of being the savior and plenty of fans willing to make any excuse for him.

By the way, arguing that the team was much worst before him and that with him the team started wining just upsets all the ones who are not Baker fans. Chubb is much more responsible for the wins and he isn't taking any credit, he does not need to.

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No offense but I will take Dan O opinion over yours.

Saying he doesn't have the locker room is pure speculation on your part.

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I agree with you that's is purely speculative. By that same token I haven't seen the offensive unit play with the spark it did when people were claiming we "are better without OBJ". Now many of those same people claim the WR's suck. Something is amiss here but I have no idea what that is.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I agree with you that's is purely speculative. By that same token I haven't seen the offensive unit play with the spark it did when people were claiming we "are better without OBJ". Now many of those same people claim the WR's suck. Something is amiss here but I have no idea what that is.

There was a track record, however much it may have been merely non-causal correlation, of us playing better without OBJ. I never bought into it, but it WAS there and after OBJ's antics to get out of here, it seemed to gain some validity.... HOWEVER, another take based purely in speculation, but supported by the existing known facts, is there is some sort of rift or unease with the players/receivers and the coaches on how the offense is/should be(ing) handled. It would explain OBJ just wanting to cut bait, the mystery around Higgins, the frustration tweet by Hunt's Dad, and perhaps even Baker's apparent regression as well as the ineffectiveness of everything offensively, in general.

It *could* simply be that Conklin makes this much of a difference on the line and Baker is actually hurting a lot more than is let on, and defenses are actually playing us better than they did last year... but, that doesn't really make sense. Those few small things don't add up to the complete turnaround in offensive power we've seen.
Nick Freaking Chubb can't run the ball suddenly.
Our OLine can't run block suddenly and we give up pressures in the pass game all over the place.
TEs and WRs struggle to get open.
Despite an offense designed to run & pass both left and right, short and long, from the exact same looks and personnel groups, it seems defenses know EXACTLY what we're about to run every single play. Things are WAY too easily covered.
The QB who made his chops on accuracy, particularly on outside shoulder throws at the sideline, suddenly has issues where balls are a bit short and on the inside shoulders; perfectly placed for DBs in trailing coverage.

So... maybe there is some malaise and frustration in the lockerroom because they ALL KNOW we're better than we've been playing, but for some reason - perhaps schematically - we're just not being allowed to be as good as we should be.
I have no idea, and the entire notion seems kinda crazy, but it also probably wouldn't even crack the Top 20 in the craziest things that have happened behind the scenes in Berea over the last 15 years.

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Conklin may or may not be "all that", but the dropoff from him to Hance (backup guard) is huge. Again, Hance isn't even a tackle. Such a huge dropoff for a team who's strength is in the trenches and running the ball would make sense to be pretty debilitating.


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Oh, no doubt... but, he's only 1 of 5 and his presence doesn't - or shouldn't - affect the number of times things have gotten blown up from the left side, or that we struggle to run left as well as right.


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Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Oh, no doubt... but, he's only 1 of 5 and his presence doesn't - or shouldn't - affect the number of times things have gotten blown up from the left side, or that we struggle to run left as well as right.

It feels to me that they have become so predictable on offense, it no longer is effective. They need to make wholesale changes to the scheme for this last run. Chubb and Hunt on the field together would be a start.


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I'm not saying one guy (to purp's point) explains it all, but when you have such a dropoff in talent on one side, you have defenses attacking that weak point and you become "one-handed" in the run game. I've heard TV guys say in-game that we are heavily biased running to one side due to injuries.


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Originally Posted by Steubenvillian
It feels to me that they have become so predictable on offense, it no longer is effective. They need to make wholesale changes to the scheme for this last run. Chubb and Hunt on the field together would be a start.


I agree
I cannot predict the play before they come out of the huddle, but once they line up I am correct on pass vs run middle/left vs run middle/right about 75% of the time. And that is coming from a guy who hasn't studied film and didn't even play HS football. All I do is watch the Browns games on TV. A smart professional defensive player wearing the green dot having spent all week studying film probably has a 90%+ hit prediction rate.


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The Dropoff from Conklin to Hance used to be a dropoff from Conklin to Chris Hubbard. And Hubbard was/is a starting caliber tackle.
also last year there was Kendall Lamm.

The Browns got 12 sacks on Bears Quarterback in the bears game, but people don't want to remember they gave up 5? or 6?, a bunch of sacks to the bears defense in that game. And that was before the Conklin injury.
In 2020 the Browns benefited numerous times from the quality of Hubbard or Lamm as a replacement as the 6th and 7th man on that 5 man OL still being starting caliber. It was better than most years. In 2021 it seems the Browns are back to a more normal year of backup quality, not starter quality to their 6th and 7th rotating in player on the 5 man starting Offensive Line.


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It could mean any of the things you listed. It could also mean that the WR's and offense as a whole have lost faith in Baker. I mean if pure speculation is what we're using as a gauge here one guess is as good as the other.


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
I'm not saying one guy (to purp's point) explains it all, but when you have such a dropoff in talent on one side, you have defenses attacking that weak point and you become "one-handed" in the run game. I've heard TV guys say in-game that we are heavily biased running to one side due to injuries.

Doesn't that happen any time that any team has an OT out of the game? I mean I do understand your point, but these types of injuries and pressure coming against the backups happens all the time. You simpy keep a TE in to help our use a RB to help block. This isn't a special or unique situation in the NFL.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
It could mean any of the things you listed. It could also mean that the WR's and offense as a whole have lost faith in Baker. I mean if pure speculation is what we're using as a gauge here one guess is as good as the other.

It absolutely could mean that, I suppose. I don't think it does because what I see on the field seems to indicate that Baker and the WRs still have a good repoire, but this is why I presented it as my thoughts on what could be happening and didn't state it as being anything else.


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Brain fart forgot what I was posting...lol laugh


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by oobernoober
I'm not saying one guy (to purp's point) explains it all, but when you have such a dropoff in talent on one side, you have defenses attacking that weak point and you become "one-handed" in the run game. I've heard TV guys say in-game that we are heavily biased running to one side due to injuries.

Doesn't that happen any time that any team has an OT out of the game? I mean I do understand your point, but these types of injuries and pressure coming against the backups happens all the time. You simpy keep a TE in to help our use a RB to help block. This isn't a special or unique situation in the NFL.

Yes and no. We've already lost our main backup (Hubbard), and our O-line can be considered the engine of our offense. Our starter is now a guy we picked off the scrap heap late last year and is a guard (can't emphasize that last one enough).


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Our starter is now a guy we picked off the scrap heap late last year and is a guard (can't emphasize that last one enough).

This cannot be quoted enough. Our starting RT is our 4th string guy and he's playing because the 3rd stringer isn't good enough... and that 4th stringer is a Guard (and a Backup at OG at that), a guy who isn't as suited to moving in space as someone that is a more natural Tackle. Having a TE help him block is pretty much the same as just having two TE's out there as rushers are just going to go around the one and push the other aside.

The entire situation is completely on Berry. He's done amazing things with the roster since being here, but the RT situation this season is DEFINITELY a major knock against him. Even bringing in an aging veteran would have been better than doing what we did, which is absolutely nothing. As soon as Hubbard was lost for the year, SOMETHING should have been done to shore up position so that this isn't the position we'd be in, ESPECIALLY when we went through that brief stretch without Hubbard, Wills, and Conklin. Maybe there was nobody available that we were enamored with, but I find it difficult to think that there was nobody out there better than a backup OG.... and had we pulled the trigger back then, that player would be hitting their stride right now, coming out of the Bye.


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I don't necessarily dismiss your point but I also feel that keeping in a TE or RB to help block is the method for dealing with that situation and I also feel that other teams deal with similar situations. Sometimes multiple injuries on the OL for long stretches at a time.


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True... all teams deal with injuries. I did say that the RT situation doesn't explain everything, but do want to highlight how our injuries are uniquely affecting us (our depth was depleted when Hubbard went on IR, and we rely a LOT on the Oline).


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Hubbard is a great depth piece and I highly doubt they thought we would sustain the quantity of injuries we did at the tackle position. So aside from that, I agree with you that essentially having nothing behind your (albeit very capable) primary backup is surprising.


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Kurt Warner is the expert, I'll defer to him:

Does Warner believe Mayfield, 26, can reach the point where he's capable of consistently elevating the Browns?

“What I've seen from Baker, I would say no,” Warner said. “I would say I haven't seen him show me that he can be that guy. I'm only going to go off of what I've seen up to this point. I'm looking at tape. I'm not seeing him every day in practice. I don't know the makeup of him in the room. I don't know some of the X factors that go into it.

“Simply by looking at the tape, I haven't seen good enough consistency by him to say that he can be a franchise guy at this point. I'm not in the business of having to project out two years. I'm just simply going off what he's done in these four years, and I just think he's been wildly inconsistent and inconsistent enough that I'm saying to myself, 'I'm not banking on this guy carrying me to a Super Bowl if he can't put together games in a season at a certain level of consistency that you need from that position.'”

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...terback-ravens-lamar-jackson/6442742001/

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The context that is missing, of course, is Why?
There is no doubt that he is inconsistent. What is the Why behind those inconsistencies. If the answer is predominantly Baker, then we just need to accept that Baker is Nick Foles (or Rex Grossman or Jay Cutler) and move on. Yes, I'm focused on Bears QBs there because when I think of highly touted, highly hyped QBs that turn out to only ever be barely average with flashes of being good enough, they're the patent holders.

However, if the answer is predominantly things outside of Baker, then that needs an honest evaluation and immediate correction.
We are four years in and we *should* be seeing more consistency, however, the crazy thing about this year is the amount of INSANE INCONSISTENCY we are seeing from ALL of the QBs, even the media darling "elite" QBs.
It seems that the real difference maker for QBs at the top this year has been the WRs... it's no coincidence that the top QBs (in yardage) all have a WR in the Top 10, too. Kyler Murray gets a lot of love, but he has less yardage than Baker. He has more TDs than Baker, but I think that is a factor or team efficiency and not individual effort. If nothing else, it probably highlights how often we have drives end because we shoot ourselves in the foot with the procedural crap or take sacks. Part of the issue is the number of different coaches, OCs, and systems he's had to deal with in his four years. Obviously, especially this year, a good chunk is injuries - both his and his offense's.... but, what's the rest? How much of it is him not being good enough and how much is something external to him?


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I didn’t post the whole article but he gets into it pretty deep.

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
I didn’t post the whole article but he gets into it pretty deep.

why not?


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Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by cfrs15
I didn’t post the whole article but he gets into it pretty deep.

why not?

Because I didn’t want to take the time. The link should suffice. Support local newspapers !

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Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by cfrs15
I didn’t post the whole article but he gets into it pretty deep.

why not?

Because I didn’t want to take the time. The link should suffice. Support local newspapers !


Some other quotes from the same article



"It's too simple to just say it's all about Baker,” Warner said. “I look at their team and I say to myself, 'If they can't run the football, they're an average football team.' I don't see them being dominant in any area besides the run game, so when they're going to struggle in the run game, I'm not sure they have the weapons on the outside that says we can just drop back and pass the ball 40 times."

"If he's in pain, that affects everything,” Warner said. “If you're playing in pain and you feel that pain in the course of a game, that can, of course, affect you."

"Most of that stuff would either be blocked out or dulled by some sort of medication, so I wasn't feeling it in game."

"I think any lower-body injury that you're feeling can definitely affect things because the lower body to me is the most important part of throwing and accuracy.”

"That's how I see [Mayfield],” Warner said. “I see him as a guy who's a good quarterback. You put all the pieces around him, and they'll go to the playoffs. Can they win a championship with him if you've got all the pieces around him? Probably"

"Baker is definitely a starting quarterback in this league. It's just a matter of what level do you put him at."


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Originally Posted by cfrs15
but he gets into it pretty deep.

actually, he doesn't. Everything he says is pretty superficial. Not really knocking him as its the nature of his business to say superficial things; say things without saying things or ever looking too deep.
Heck, in his own quotes that you posted, he states that he doesn't know the "x factors" and the article talks about how he states that at least the 1st Half issues weren't Baker's fault.

I'll take his assessment at face value - and I do see the humor in him also comparing Baker to Bears QBs - but, I'll reserve the right to take it all with a gigantic grain of salt until and unless he actually does a deep, honest look and determines how much of the inconsistency that is the issue is the fault of Baker.

We've seen really extended periods of elite level play from Baker, so he is not the typical "flash in a pan" inconsistency. When I think of Dalton, Cutler, Foles.... I think of guys whose sine waves are more game-to-game. At most, you get a couple of games in a row where they're good, but they always come back to the mean. Even Foles in his Super Bowl run had stretches where they won simply because he didn't make too many mistakes. Baker, though, we saw all of the last half of the season and into the playoffs where we were freaking lighting things up because of him and the throws he was making. I'm not saying that is the end-all, be-all, but it needs to be noted and it needs to be evaluated. What is different now? What was working then that isn't working now - and Why?


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It was a really good read. For someone that posted that first-half Ravens breakdown, he's pretty meh on Baker overall. When he slotted Baker in with Dalton and Cousins, that got an audible "OOF" from me here at the work office.

Some tidbits that I found interesting and/or helpful

-his numbers this year track really closely with his career numbers... I think that speaks to Warner's point earlier on really not liking/getting hung up on Baker's overall inconsistency.
-Overall, Warner took very much a "he is what he is" stance on Baker. He's not bad, but he's not a member of that elite category. He expects that will mean Baker will play out his extension but probably not stick with the Browns afterwards. A big part of that is the silly money other teams will hand to him in FA.

Overall, Warner's takes seem very fair and transparent (if a little blunt) based on the info available.


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Quote
“I look at their team and I say to myself, 'If they can't run the football, they're an average football team.' I don't see them being dominant in any area besides the run game, so when they're going to struggle in the run game, I'm not sure they have the weapons on the outside that says we can just drop back and pass the ball 40 times."

If I'm looking for a Why, I think this is it and it is actually just about what I saw myself and just posted an hour ago somewhere else on here. He doesn't mention our OLine issues (has anyone else noticed that there hasn't been a single Tweet from Baldy in his love-fest with 'The Union' this year?), but they are definitely a part of things, for sure.


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Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Quote
“I look at their team and I say to myself, 'If they can't run the football, they're an average football team.' I don't see them being dominant in any area besides the run game, so when they're going to struggle in the run game, I'm not sure they have the weapons on the outside that says we can just drop back and pass the ball 40 times."

If I'm looking for a Why, I think this is it and it is actually just about what I saw myself and just posted an hour ago somewhere else on here. He doesn't mention our OLine issues (has anyone else noticed that there hasn't been a single Tweet from Baldy in his love-fest with 'The Union' this year?), but they are definitely a part of things, for sure.

Baldy has definitely tweeted out some “Union” videos earlier in the year.

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What I meant by deep is that he explains that he needs more context.

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ahh, I haven't seen them (well, I don't recall seeing them... I'm sure I probably did and just don't remember)


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So he said if you "build the perfect team around him" we can win. Otherwise, not so much.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So he said if you "build the perfect team around him" we can win. Otherwise, not so much.

You fancy yourself as some sort of written-word-mind-reader...well FYI...you are not anywhere near good at that.

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It's not that complicated.

Quote
You put all the pieces around him, and they'll go to the playoffs. Can they win a championship with him if you've got all the pieces around him? Probably"

I'd love to know what the hell you think he could probably win a championship if you put all the pieces around him means.

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Well, one way to take that is that the receivers around him now aren't very good.


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Dan Orlovsky needs to shut the 3*** up. He's been wrong about ALOT of ****!


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So he said if you "build the perfect team around him" we can win. Otherwise, not so much.
He didn't say "perfect". I would like for you to list the QBs that have routinely made the playoffs and won super bowls without a fair amount of talent around them.


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For some reason you see, "You put all the pieces around him" the same as, "a fair amount of talent around them". It certainly doesn't read that way to me.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Well, one way to take that is that the receivers around him now aren't very good.

If you think the only position Warner was referring to was the WR position, then you have a point. For some reason I'm having trouble seeing "You put all the pieces around him" as strictly the WR's. I think it would have been much more likely for Warner to have specified a position if a single position was what he meant. I'm looking at what he actually said and not what I think it says.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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