DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski looking to rid us of Baker???

I followed the point you were trying to make.

And to answer one of your early questions, the answer is no, Baker does not still have the rookie TD record.

That was broken last year by Justin Herbert.

IDK if I believe that Stefanski was/is trying to sabotage Baker because he puts his own job/legacy/reputation on the line doing that.

More important he also risks losing the locker room by doing that.

I think he was just in over his head at times and wasn't sure how to adjust what he was calling.

The injuries to basically the entire team didn't help. We've been limited pretty much most of the season in one area or another.

The crowd calling for Baker to be traded or cut because he "sucks" seem to be forgetting that he looked great most of his rookie season.

And the second half of last season he went 7-3, and would have gone 9-1 had our defense not blown it against the Ravens on MNF or had our WR's not gotten covid for the Jets game.

More importantly he took care of the ball and had like a 16:1 TD to INT ratio to end the season.

Why the huge regression this year?

I think it was a combination of poor WR play, injuries by both the WR and OL pretty much all season, the injury to his shoulder, and then very lousy play calls by Stefanski.

I think Hooper needs released/traded and we need to overhaul our pass catchers in free agency/draft and give Baker another shot while healthy.

He's shown us flashes of being a very good quarterback ....

And let's not forget, the defense let us down a few times too. Think back to the Chiefs and Chargers games.

The defense was also very lousy against the Cardinals and the Patriots - granted so was the offense but the defense didn't do much to help the offense.

This just seemed like a season where very little went right from the get-go.

I disagree. I do not think Stefanski wants to rid the team of Baker. I think a good coach and good front office will always explore every option to make their team better. If they feel they can improve the talent in the QB position without mortgaging away the future I think they will. What I do not think they will do is get rid of Baker at all costs and take a chance on just any QB. I could see them taking a Sam Howell type QB in the 2nd round if for no other reason to just push Baker. I think it was obvious that Keenum cannot be relied upon to win games when Baker is out. So an upgrade to the back up QB is needed. If Baker struggles fully healthy then let's see what the 2nd round QB can do.

j/c

Here's where we are with Baker and where this thing is going IMO...we've seen this movie plot before:

The FO doesn't believe in him...at least not yet (not saying that as an indictment on the FO - they have their reasons that we don't see)...no Team Captains this year...no contract extension. It's a message - intended or not - that they don't have the confidence in him to see him as a long-term QB;

There is this "air" of Baker vs Ski...and Ski is their hand-picked guy while Baker is not. I don't subscribe to the "He's not THEIR guy" club on its own merits...but this is (1) of (7) reasons I'll list here...last straw...icing on the cake...whatever;

He displayed a lot of bad play after the injury and it is debate-able as to why;

The fan base is quite split on the guy...the reasons no longer matter;

The media loves to hate on him...and the Browns...and they are back with a vengeance after eating crow last year;

With the resulting uncertainty, we aren't going to land the players we need (QB or otherwise) outside the draft to get this turned around...this upgrade is more than just a (1) off-season gig;

The officiating isn't going to improve when even the player's own fan base isn't behind him...let alone the media and maybe-even the player's FO...human nature, no conspiracy.

I still think Baker is going to be a good QB...very good, in fact...just not here. I'm over being PO'd about it...it is what it is...
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If they stop-gap with a guy like Matt Ryan or Jimmy G they "might" be able to draw a vet WR or (2) that can help next year...win the draft (whatever that means)...re-sign some defensive players and look for the guy to groom...D Watson (who I have doubts about on-or-off the field) is worth a shot if he clears his legal issues.

It was fun while it lasted...mostly...but the ship has sailed. Time to move on.

I've said this same thing to a few of my friends.

It would be a very "Browns" thing for us to release/trade him then he goes somewhere else and plays great.

I think New Orleans could be a great fit for him in with Payton's offense and coaching.

It wouldn't shock me in the slightest to see him go succeed there if he's released or traded to them.

I do however think he needs to go some place that's ready to win now and has support already in place.

If he ends up in Houston, Carolina, NY Giants or Seattle (assuming they trade Russ) then I also wouldn't be shocked to see him fail there.

One thing that seems true about Baker through all four years is that everyone around him needs to be playing well for him to play well.

He's not that QB who elevates the guys around him or carries an underperforming team to a gritty win.

But I wouldn't be shocked in the slightest if he ends up in New Orleans, Washington or Denver and does well.

"He's not that QB who elevates the guys around him or carries an underperforming team to a gritty win."

That statement says it all. If he can't do those things, he is not a "franchise " QB. Those are qualities of a good back up, and at this point, that is where I see his future.

Why the assumption that it is solely the Browns looking to move on from Baker?

Baker may very well be looking to move on from the Browns. He certainly was not happy in his last postgame press conference.

In it, he said:

Jake Trotter
@Jake_Trotter
Baker: “Now it’s time for me to start looking at what’s best for me and my health. … I’m pretty damn beat up right now.” Baker said he’ll discuss with his agent/family whether he will play next Sunday vs. Cincy

Glaringly missing from that is him saying, 'I'll discuss it with my coaches and the organization.'

Between not getting the contract after leading the team to the playoffs, to the way this season played out, to calling out the play calling this may be a relationship that is best to amicably part ways in the offseason. Baker may feel slighted. This seems similar to when he felt slighted by Kliff Kingsbury at Texas Tech and left to walk on at Oklahoma.

We've started to see leaks in the media via MKC and Jake Trotter hinting at both parties moving on from each other. Jim Donovan was on the Browns Red Zone last night suggesting that he even felt it was quite possible we saw Baker play his last game in a Browns uniform.

I may very well be wrong, but I would be much more surprised if Baker is taking snaps under center for the Browns next year than I would seeing him on another team.

It's going to be an interesting offseason and huge decisions ahead for Berry and the future of the Browns.

There's a lot of smoke right now, but I think it'll dissipate shortly. The rumblings about AVP were false rumor, and I think these rumblings are similar.

The moment people cite MKC is when I lose interest.

He did that in the game where he took his very first NFL snap...on a team that was 1-31 / 4-44 the seasons before he got there...won (6) more games that very year...on a trash team...that won (4) games IN THREE YEARS before he got there. Two years later he grits us onto the playoffs and wins a game...on the road...without his "Star" WR.

The "guys around him" him are/were hardly weapons. At the start of the 2022 season the following weapons from 2021 either won't be on the team because he never wanted to be there in the first place...likely won't be on the team due to $$$ and will STILL be on the team in spite of $$$: OBJ...Landry...Hooper. Njoku is all but taking his potential elsewhere.

Who CAN elevate a 6th Rd project WR...a track star...and a slot WR who has been dinged up most of the year?

Next up: Baker has to have everything around him be perfect for him to succeed. I'm curious as to exactly when everything was perfect.

I've said it earlier in this thread...and will paraphrase here...it's simply time to move on from him. The team cannot succeed with such a polarizing figure who isn't having enough success. The reasons really don't matter anymore.

For me, it's a tale of two Bakers. Good Baker did absolutely make everyone around him better. WSU's example of the Jets game where he came in and the offense took off is a great example.

Bad Baker actually does the opposite. He drags the offense down.

There's no single silver bullet to kill Bad Baker and keep Good Baker. I think the many fixes start with his mechanics and technique. He's going to have to bite the bullet and talk to some broom sweepers. Supposedly, the first thing AVP did when he got here was begin to fix Baker's footwork, but then we have Kurt Warner point out footwork 101 mistakes in a game a couple weeks ago. This should fix his accuracy (not throwing balls at receiver's feet) and a little of his timing. His decision-making is another story. I do think getting the other things settled will help him focus more on reading the D in front of him, but that only gets him so far. I don't have an answer for his inability to see open receivers.

We have Baker for next year unless some monumental move is made he's ours for another year. That's probably the way it should be considering all the injuries we've had, the Covid cases, and last but not least, all the OBJ drama. JMO but I feel the whole staff should be brought back too. The FO will make decisions on whom they want back, the players they don't and will go into FA and the draft acquiring players we need at positions that need an upgrade. KS and his O staff should sit down and asceses why our O was so bad. Baker should have a lot of input on the type of O we will run next year. Our staff should look back at what made him successful in the past and go with it. KS may have to bend a little. We all want a winner here and they should be working together for that goal. Just my .02.

If it's intentional then Stefanski needs to be gone today, fired.

I'd actually love to have Rex Ryan at this point. If I were a player there's no way I'd play for Stefanski at this point.

Common sense dictates you don't take a QB who under your own coaching led this team to an 11-5 record and a playoff appearance one year only to decide to undermine him the very next season in an attempt to replace him.

What the FO thinks may be a different matter and I have no idea about that. They chose not to extend his contract but use the fifth year extension instead. Now was that Baker's choice or the FO? It takes both parties to come to a contract agreement, not just one.

Stefanki's system is the same system Baker played in last year when he led the team to an 11-5 season. This wasn't some plot to change everything up during this past off season to undermine Baker. There may have been some adjustments after his injury due to that injury which would only make sense.

I think taking an objective look at last season makes it only obvious that Stefanski would have no reason to do the things you are suggesting here. Why would any HC undermine his own career and reputation to rid this team of a QB who helped him reach the playoffs in his rookie NFL HC season?

Nah. 2+2 isn't 5.

That makes perfect sense...it's what we need...it's what should happen...there is no way that will pan out. That should have been done last off-season...after the injury...at the bye this year...any of those times...and KS didn't budge...he doesn't see the need. No free agent playmaker with special talent is coming anywhere near this mess...unless they are a special run-blocker with little interest in playing in a dynamic offense. steve has laid this out numerous times. We are likely going to go into next year with DPJ, Schwartz, a draft pick, Bryant, Carlson and another draft pick. Who will succeed with that talent? Why would a defensive player want to come to a team that can't score points?

I think "they" know what they want and Baker isn't it. He won't throw again until June/July. Half (+?) of the fanbase will get their wish...the media sharks will have a big meal...and we get to start all over again...we just don't know it yet and are delaying the inevitable.

Lastly, would you want to play for a HC that put Hudson one-on-one against TJ Watt? I sure wouldn't. All the crap that has transpired since Baker got here...and that was the last straw.

Not only that, but we were still going constant 3-TE sets and never was any of those TEs helping Hudson. It literally makes zero sense on any level.

I sure as hell don't want Cousins. Baker 2.0 enhanced.

Not Stefanski, probably the Haslems'
Somebody is using the media to try and get the fans to accept it, and its total bull *!
The Browns would be back to being a 1 win team without Baker Mayfield as quarterback. (I don't think Tom Brady could win in Cleveland)

It's totally messed up. The Browns. and the last thing Browns Fans need,
is somebody using the MEDIA to try and tell them how to feel about the stupid things the team does.
And nobody was improving the Qb's in pocket decision making from game 1- through game 16 so, who was that on?

Baker dreams of being Kirk Cousins at this point.

We've already went the Cousins route twice. Oneill and Terry.

Copied from CBS SPORTS HQ today 1/5/2022

BAKER MAYFIELD

Last season, Baker Mayfield led the Browns to their first playoff win since January 1995 -- three months before Mayfield himself was born. Fast forward a year and things couldn't be more different with the Browns eliminated from postseason contention by Week 17.

After announcing Monday night he will undergo surgery to repair the torn labrum in his non-throwing shoulder, Mayfield will not play in Cleveland's regular-season finale. Now a long offseason of questions begins.
Mayfield never got the long-term contract extension that looked likely last offseason, which means he's a prime candidate to start the 2022 season somewhere other than Cleveland. I'm not quite sure it's the right decision to move on.

Here are a few reasons why:

Mayfield's injury, suffered all the way back in Week 2, was significant and shouldn't be minimized among the reasons his play dropped off.

Cleveland's wide receiver corps left a lot to be desired. Browns WRs are last in receptions, second-to-last in receiving yards and 25th in average yards after catch.

Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt -- the two best offensive skill position players on the roster -- both missed significant time.

The Browns weren't as far away as people think this season. Only Minnesota has more one-possession losses than Cleveland's six.


But my biggest issue with moving on from Mayfield would be this: Who is going to be better?

A list of veteran QBs potentially on the move this offseason shows few answers. Luring Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson seems unlikely, should either even be available. Matt Ryan or Jimmy Garoppolo? Meh. The draft class isn't particularly strong, either.

Mayfield, at $18.9 million, is cheaper than almost any outside veteran option and better than any incoming rookie, at least for 2022. The Browns would be better off proceeding with Mayfield and improving other parts of the roster than looking for an expensive, aging option. Should Mayfield not be part of Cleveland's plans next year, NFL scribe Cody Benjamin has a list of potential landing spots.
Before the 2021 NFL season, Baker Mayfield expected to strike a lucrative long-term contract with the Browns, touting a resume that could've warranted an extension worth close to $35 million per year. Now, after taking nine sacks in a loss to the Steelers on Monday night, Mayfield's 2021 season might be over, with the quarterback set for offseason shoulder surgery and telling reporters it's time for him to evaluate "what's in the best interest of me and my health."

The next question is, has Mayfield also played his last snap with the Browns? Months after looking like he might follow the Bills' Josh Allen as the second 2018 first-round QB to land a new deal, Mayfield looks as much a part of the Browns' problems as a victim of them. He's still under contract through 2022, thanks to his $18.9 million fifth-year option, but Cleveland can trade or release him without penalty. And recent offseasons have proven that big-name QB swaps are increasingly on the table.

Given coach Kevin Stefanski's (sometimes inexplicable) commitment to relying on Mayfield's battered arm this year, and the rash of injuries that helped derail the Browns' 2021 season, chances are Cleveland will opt for familiarity and give Mayfield one more audition in 2022, before potentially turning its eyes to the 2023 draft class or veteran market.

But let's say Stefanski and general manager Andrew Berry -- who worked under the Eagles' notoriously aggressive Howie Roseman -- decide to shop Mayfield in hopes of an instant upgrade. Here are some potential 2022 destinations for the former No. 1 overall pick, either via trade or after release:


7. Carolina Panthers
Matt Rhule needs to solve the QB position, like, yesterday. Which is why they probably wouldn't be involved, a year after trading picks for another first-round flame-out in Sam Darnold. But Rhule also wants to be more of a ground-and-pound team, and Mayfield has proven, in better circumstances, that he can manage games.

6. New York Giants
Both Joe Judge and Daniel Jones are apparently set to return, but why on Earth should that stop them from investing more under center, considering the lifeless way they're finishing? Mayfield would bring personality to a market desperately lacking in NFL juice right now, and he's got the old-school approach Judge would appreciate.

5. New Orleans Saints
They've got more salary-cap maneuvering to do before they can make any real moves at QB, but Sean Payton could see a higher floor with Mayfield than the alternatives -- chiefly Taysom Hill or a rehabbing Jameis Winston. New Orleans could (and probably should) target a rookie in the draft, but perhaps they'd prefer to win now with their defense.

4. Seattle Seahawks
This, of course, is dependent on Russell Wilson relocating, which is certainly possible after the Pro Bowler even identified preferred landing spots prior to 2021. A total rebuild would be smarter, but Pete Carroll could double down on his run-heavy preferences by inserting Mayfield (or swapping him for Russ!) and pouring more investments into the defense. Wilson's no trade clause means Russ has to agree to the trade.

3. Denver Broncos
The Broncos are near the top of every "[Insert QB] landing spots" list by default. Is Mayfield that much of an upgrade on Teddy Bridgewater? Not necessarily. But with a better O-line and defense, you can argue otherwise. John Elway will never not sign off on a veteran fix, and GM George Paton may not be able to land Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, etc.

2. Washington
Ron Rivera has to be growing impatient. Taylor Heinicke is best off the bench. Their defense is built to compete. Mayfield brings the requisite toughness and starting experience to lead an old-school run-heavy offense. QBs coach Ken Zampese was Mayfield's tutor as a rookie in Cleveland. And what better way to welcome in the team's new era with a former No. 1 pick under center? They're also flush with cap space.

1. Houston Texans
Mayfield may not prefer it, but he knows Texas well, hailing from Austin and playing at Texas Tech. More importantly, Houston is all but certain to move on from Deshaun Watson. Third-round rookie Davis Mills has flashed this year, but letting him learn and/or compete with Mayfield (before re-evaluating the 2023 QB class) would be more ideal. They've got more than enough money to do it. Watson's no trade clause means Deshaun has to agree to the trade.

CBS spots HQ can go suck an egg too.

Mayfield, is only a candidate to go somewhere else, because he hasn't been signed long term in Cleveland yet.

Now. THERE IS NO END, to dumb-- 's who would LOVE to see Baker's good play for their team and not for the Browns.

They come from everywhere, they come from New York, Miami, Denver, all over the country that hates the Browns and hopes the Browns never succeed.

And they can write a '' ' load of articles! and they all want to Dump on Cleveland so they can all shove off.

The truth is the season was over once Baker went down with the shoulder injury.

Go watch some games from last year for a comparison. That was not the same QB.

In retrospect, the Browns may have been wiser to go forward with Keenam. But that would have been a hard choice or a competitive player to accept.

Just a response to a lot of opinions here, not necessarily WSU, certainly not my focus.

What we are seeing here is not good for the Browns. That was among the lousiest games I have watched in over half a century. Penalties, Hooper, Ski's inept sidelines and crappy game planning and management, and stupid offense priorities made the defense work worse. But the sum was lousier than the bad parts. I do uotknow all ball, but I know lousy ball when I see it. This was inexcusably crappy. By that I mean clearly that it can't be excused, looked past, defended, debated, or spun. We were bad at almost everything we did, each was oversimplified, predictable, conservative to a fault, and plain, bad football. We often failed to compete, and a significant part was because of our sideline. The failure to adjust, adapt, or even address some of the glaring problems in the game are HC issues. And it brings us to my take on part of the steaming pile of problems we have engineered for ourselves. We need, Berry, Haslams, Van Pelt, Stefanski, Mayfield, Woods,other assistants to look at this season with an eye to loyalty. Some has been misplaced, such as unearned; some players, plays, parts of game planning have been sacred cows, and too much of a premium put on them. Ski calling an offense that got worse and worse, probably the tailspin gets worse this weekend with this death-march. He should be done with this, and his loyalty being the play caller has extracted a real price. The loyalty to the three TE set, abandoning the run, and playing a marginalized Baker are at least bad coaching IMO. Not getting help versus Watt as he dismantled us was enraging. But he says no because they let him do so. And they listen to his excuses. Take your blame and repeat it next week. Do you want to pick up here? Decide what you want to build on. We need some talent that plays hungry, hungrier than what we see here. But we are loyal to some epic failures which are their own culture. Those wins on paper bought us the basement. Think I am done for the year for the most part. Are we tanking? Are we allowing loyalty to the wrong ball and players? None of this is all of the problem, but I think any viable improvement must involve some attitude wrenching and rough changes to how we win, not how we comm it to further losing.

This is what I don't understand... it was OBVIOUS that Baker was inefficetive throughout the season due to his shoulder... the coaching staff should have shut him down, let him get surgery, and done our best with the back up while letting Baker heal as quickly as possible to get ready for next year... I have no idea why they kept playing him when is was obvious that the injury was significantly hampering him

Baby, you can drive my Carr
Yes, I'm gonna be a star
Baby, you can drive my Carr
And maybe I'll love you"



win ! win ! win ! win ! Winnnnn !


Sorry that dang Beatles song took over in my head !

Generally speaking, I ain't buying in....

what thoroughly forgettable individuals


i'm impressed. really impressed.

As usual WSU, you are dead accurate.

Could not agree more Bard. Great post!

I'll never forget the home opener in 2013 that I took my son to, where O'neill and co. gave up 6 sacks of Brandon Weeden. Cameron Wake had 3 of them. There were plays where Wake was already in the backfield before Cousins got his feet planted. He was standing there, looking behind himself while Wake was taking down his qb. I'm not kidding.

Eo - good to see you posting.

I'm not on board with the theory on this thread - Stefanski might be many things, and I think 'overwhelmed' and 'desperate' might top my list before 'underhanded' and 'dirtbag' - which is what he would have to be if he was putting Baker out there to fail and get hurt. I do see lots of anecdotal issues that lead you to your conclusion - but I think that is just part of KS struggles dealing with a massive amount of issues this year including an injured QB who was clearly bad in game days regardless of practice and despite some good moments or halves.

It's pretty simple to me - and I started saying this many games ago, regardless of how good some games have gone or how well some parts of some games: Stefanski needs to concentrate 100% on being a Head Coach. He needs to let someone else be the OC and play calls. If he wants a heavy input into the play book? I can live with it - but he needs to step away from play calling on game days. Maybe as 'only' the HC it would be much easier to see Baker struggle and place him on IR for his own good and the good of the team? idk ? Just a bit of speculation. I do not know if Stefanski has it in him to admit this needs to happen though, he seems to be in denial regards this aspect of his responsibilities.

Hoping we keep both - that both are on the same page ASAP.

Very informative and good post. Thanks.

I only say one thing. Nine sacks in one game with a injured QB. Can you imagine A Reid do the same thing with Mahones if he’s injured and probably needs a surgery?

Well said, mgh.

I'll repeat what he (and others) have said. Stefanski is/might be a lot of things, but a schemer trying to put his players (especially QB) in a bad spot is not one of them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the directive came from upstairs to provide further evidence that Mayfield didn't deserve a long term contract. And by upstairs, I mean that dumbass Jimmy Haslam. He is Jerry Jones 2.0. Another idiot who thinks having money means having brains when it comes to football. He and Dolan can both go to hell.

What shred of evidence do you have to support that? I haven't heard a word about Haslam being involved in football decisions since Dee became a part of the upper brass and Stefanski being hired.

baker took us to the 26th draft position.

Defense Sendejo,Redwine,Wilson,and sheldon richardson.
we where amongst the biggest losers with players on injured reserve cause in effect you do not show up for training I am shipping you out to Detroit.
Wr this is the weakest group of receivers fielded in 20 years
Special teams the worst in the nfl .
Analysis Stefanski team is weaker then when he took it over he had 5plus all pros he better worry about his job
Landry had 1175 yards before stefanski now he has 300 plus turn that finger around this a drop off 875 yards landry is not as good as he once was but he did not drop that far

So you're saying a banged up QB with accuracy issues should have passed more this year than he did? You do know that no matter how weak those WR's are, they were open a lot on pass plays and Baker didn't see them, right? PFF has us ranked high in that regard.

I agree. But, when people are shooting spitballs, anything is bound to come out.