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You are trying to determine if the driver of the car feel threatened or not. If they feel unsafe. I side with them because they are not breaking the law.
I do not side with Proud Boys or Oath Keepers if they condone violence. Protecting yourself comes first and foremost. Causing the problem by going outside the bounds of legal peaceful protests is another. Right or left everyone deserves the right to peaceful protest. No one deserves the right to infringe on someone else. If someone feels threatened they should have the right to defend their selves. If you do not want to get run over by a car, shot, or anything else do not go out of the bounds of peaceful protest. I'm not going to blast you for being conservative. I'm not going to fault you for thinking protecting yourself makes the lives of others, those you fear, somehow less valuable than your own. But I will blast you for thinking that driving a 5 ton missile through a group of humans for blocking a road is acceptable for any non-life-and-death threat. If the protestors are dragging you out of your Truck and beating you like Rodney king, then your life is in danger and do what you must. But getting pissed because the road is blocked and running people down, or running them down for any non-life-and-death threat… Well, that's just cold-blooded murder, no matter what the damn law says. And in case you missed it, trumpians running down BLM, Antifa, Libs, or bystanders because they don't like their politics is exactly why GOPer states want these laws. So they can legally murder the OTHER. That is NEVER going to fly.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 12/30/21 09:19 PM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and he carries his banners openly against the city. But the traitor moves among those within the gates freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears no traitor; he speaks in the accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their garments, and he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation; he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of a city; he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to be feared.Although these words are now widely attributed to Cicero, in fact they originated in the 20th century, with novelist Taylor Caldwell’s 1965 book A Pillar of Iron. Even though that work often drew directly from the recorded speeches and letters of Cicero for its dialogue, it was nonetheless a work of fiction, and the warning from Cicero about “treason from within” was an invention of Caldwell’s and not a reproduction of Cicero’s own words. A very fitting warning for the January 6th Committee, DOJ, and all American Patriots.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 12/30/21 11:09 PM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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No, I don't want the law to go one way. Nothing has been civil in this country about politics for a very long time now. Being "civil" has nothing to do with giving you a right to kill someone. Making a verbal threat alone has never given anyone the right to kill someone either. Once they cross the line to put their hands on you that's a different matter.
Let me give you an example.....
In Trump's campaign rallies, he turned his wrath on reporters covering the rallies. He has his hard core supporters believing they're fake news and even went so far as to call them "the enemy of the people". Now this was an angry crowd Trump already had worked into a frenzy. People in the crowds were threatening them. So just how threatened do you think they felt and what "right to defend themselves" did they have?
You see, for me to feel it should all be a one way street as you pt it, I would have to suggest there are two different standards for different groups of people. I don't. What I will not condone from either side is when they say you can kill someone for committing a misdemeanor which isn't a direct threat to anyone's safety no matter what "their feelings" are. What happens when you corner an animal? Get between them and their way of escape. Well humans do have animal instincts and when they feel cornered or threatened they will lash out. I certainly will not just sit there and wait to be attacked. Those people who rioted in 2020 were not kind hearted individuals they were savages. Laws like what Florida just put in helps law abiding citizens defend themselves from lawlessness.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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https://www.trendsmap.com/twitter/tweet/1462462243673681924This will make you think what really happened. Maybe some of the unhinged people in the crowd were led to do stupid things.!!! You know, they should still do their time because right is right and wrong is wrong. But, makes you think about using single incidents to drive policies. What motives are behing those policies???
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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The comments are very telling:
""The FBI planned, execute and framed innocent people just so their party could lock it all down and flood the networks with anti Trump propaganda""
""If you had any doubt that the FBI is corrupt this should clear it up""
""They locked Charles Manson up for murder and he wasn't even there when it happened and claims he didn't tell anyone to do that but this guy is on video saying this crazy stuff and is driving around in his ATV free as a bird.""
Good stuff for sure. No doubt many of these same folks believe 911 was carried out by the CIA too.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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How did a conversation about the incident on January 6 turn into a debate on blocking highways in protest,,,
Equating the two is just dumb... Two different things.
Protests are just that.. This was an attack on the very institution and fabric of the nation,. Those that did it should be held accountable...
I won't go back and look, but My guess is that bringing up protests was done by someone trying to lessen the events of Jan 6...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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https://www.salon.com/2021/12/30/with-fascism-coming-america-responds-lol-cares-lets-netflix-and-chill/?user_id=*%7CEMAIL%7C*
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What happens when you corner an animal? Get between them and their way of escape. Well humans do have animal instincts and when they feel cornered or threatened they will lash out. I certainly will not just sit there and wait to be attacked. Those people who rioted in 2020 were not kind hearted individuals they were savages. Not all protestors were involved in riots. Most every riot came well after dark. Not during the day. Just like everyone who attended the Trump rally on Jan. 6th storm the capital. But your claim seems to be That in all cases where protestors blocked a roadway, they surely must have been dangerous and violent. Nobody has you "cornered " by blocking a roadway. You keep making excuses why it's okay to murder people with a different political view. Speaking of storming the capital. Capital police officers were threatened and 140 of them were injured during the Capital riot. It sounds as if under your scenario the Capital police should have opened fire on them. Is that what you're saying? To protect themselves from lawlessness and an, in this case direct threat. Laws like what Florida just put in helps law abiding citizens defend themselves from lawlessness. It legitimizes murder. The link you posted is just ridiculous and explains a lot. Just not what you think it explains.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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https://www.salon.com/2021/12/30/with-fascism-coming-america-responds-lol-cares-lets-netflix-and-chill/?user_id=*%7CEMAIL%7C* As the threat of authoritarian takeover grows, most Americans have lost interest. They'll have nobody else to blame In America (and around the world) the year 2021 was one of great sadness and frustration. By many indications, 2022 may be even worse. America's democracy crisis continues to escalate. The alarm is blaring but the American people, for the most part, continue to ignore it. Last Jan. 6, Donald Trump and his regime attempted a coup with the goal of nullifying the results of the 2020 presidential election and, in effect, ending American democracy. In many respects, Trump's coup attempt was atypical, if not wholly unique. It was publicly announced by Donald Trump and his agents months or even years in advance. Despite those warnings, law enforcement officials and national security leaders did little to prepare for it. Most of the mainstream news media and pundit class did not take the threat seriously, instead choosing to mock those truth-tellers who kept sounding the alarm. Nearly a year after the attack, Donald Trump and the other high-level planners and conspirators have not been punished, and remain free to continue plotting the overthrow of American democracy. As has been widely observed, the Trump regime's coup attempt may be the least-punished such high crime in recent history. Even Trump's foot soldiers have not been punished to the full extent of the law for their participation in the Capitol attack. While some have faced prosecution, the Justice Department has acted with great restraint. Some "good news": Donald Trump's coup attempt was an example of what experts on authoritarianism and democracy describe as an attempt at an "autocratic breakthrough." Most democracies quickly fall before such assaults. This one was repelled, which is something of a unique accomplishment. In other ways, the Trump regime's coup attempt was not so unusual. As in other places and times in history, Trump's loyalists are continuing with their efforts, both through more or less legal means and otherwise. When a coup fails the first time, the second attempt is usually successful. All of this is happening in real time and in plain sight, with minimal attempt at deception. For the American people and their responsible leaders to ignore such threats is a willful choice. What warnings should we be heeding now? In a recent op-ed for the Washington Post, retired U.S. Army generals Paul D. Eaton, Antonio M. Taguba and Steven M. Anderson are sounding the alarm about the possibility of a second civil war in the aftermath of a future presidential election, if Donald Trump or another Republican refuses to accept the results: We — all of us former senior military officials — are increasingly concerned about the aftermath of the 2024 presidential election and the potential for lethal chaos inside our military, which would put all Americans at severe risk….
Imagine competing commanders in chief — a newly reelected Biden giving orders, versus Trump (or another Trumpian figure) issuing orders as the head of a shadow government. Worse, imagine politicians at the state and federal levels illegally installing a losing candidate as president.
All service members take an oath to protect the U.S. Constitution. But in a contested election, with loyalties split, some might follow orders from the rightful commander in chief, while others might follow the Trumpian loser. Arms might not be secured depending on who was overseeing them. Under such a scenario, it is not outlandish to say a military breakdown could lead to civil war.
In this context, with our military hobbled and divided, U.S. security would be crippled. Any one of our enemies could take advantage by launching an all-out assault on our assets or our allies. This is but the most recent in a series of public warnings by America's senior national security leadership, both before and after Jan. 6, about the spiraling danger of a new civil war, a right-wing insurgency and other forms of terrorism and political violence. Such warnings are without precedent in modern American history and highlight the extreme peril the country now faces from the Republican fascist movement. It has also been reported that military leaders were seriously concerned that Trump might order the National Guard to intervene on his behalf on or around Jan. 6 by invoking the Insurrection Act. If he had given such an order, the country would have come dangerously closer to an authoritarian takeover and perhaps widespread violence, with elements of the military battling one another. Experts on civil war have warned that the U.S. is well along such a path. Domestic terrorism experts have also warned that right-wing extremists and paramilitary groups are organizing on the local and state level to intimidate, harass and target "liberals," Black and brown people, Muslims, Jews, immigrant communities and others deemed to be their enemies. This is part of a nationwide campaign by Republican fascists and the larger white right to attack American democracy on the local and state level in order to facilitate Trump's return to power (or the "election" of his designated successor). It is reasonable to feel angry about the American people's apparent passivity in the face of these obvious threats against democracy. But the more important question is why they are responding that way, and what that tells us about the health of American democracy and political culture? In essence, why do so many people simply not care? There are many explanations. Most Americans do not follow politics closely. They also do not understand it very well. As we approach the one-year anniversary of Jan. 6, opinion polls show that fewer people are paying attention to the investigation into those events. This is not, in itself, surprising. A large percentage of Americans, if not a majority, do not closely follow the news. At least half the population cannot read at a sixth-grade level. The average American's understanding of politics also ebbs and flows, most obviously in response to shared crises or calamities, but also in response to those events that the news media and leading political figures focus on most intensely. In this case, if the Democrats and others who support democracy do not consistently highlight the existential threat posed by the Republican-fascist movement, then most Americans will not pay attention. American voters are also strikingly poor at attributing responsibility to the correct political leaders or parties for their policy failures. Most people receive information about current events from a trusted network that may include friends, relatives, community leaders, clergy members, favored politicians and media voices and, increasingly, social media such as Facebook or Instagram. Such a network is likely to be insular and inaccurate, serving as a type of echo chamber — especially for Republicans and "conservatives." In an era of extreme right-wing asymmetrical polarization and negative partisanship, disinformation and a coordinated assault on truth and reality, as well as an overall culture of spectacle, unrestrained consumerism, cruelty and endless distraction, many Americans lack the capacity to make informed and responsible political and social decisions. A large percentage of Americans believe (quite correctly) that the country's political elites and other leaders have failed in their responsibilities to society and are increasingly detached from the experiences of everyday Americans. This reflects a 60-year trend of declining faith and trust in the country's leaders and the legitimacy of "the system." There is also a worrisome decline in the American people's faith in democracy itself, especially among younger people. A recent poll by Grinnell College offers additional context about the deep political and cultural divides that are driving the country's democracy crisis: The poll shows incredibly few Americans (7%) have high trust in the federal government to offer good ideas to solve problems facing their communities. Even among Democrats, whose party currently holds the White House and the majority in both houses of Congress, only 14% say they have high trust in the federal government.
Americans were somewhat more likely to have high trust in state governors (25%) and city or county elected leaders (19%) to offer good ideas to solve problems in their communities. In both cases, only a minority of Americans had high trust in elected officials. "Trust in political institutions is the glue that holds democracies together and allows them to weather crises over time," said Grinnell political scientist Danielle Lussier. "While there will always be some skepticism toward the government, when a majority of people express distrust in elected officials, the legitimacy of the constitutional order is called into question." Further analysis reveals the depth of partisan division: While doctors, scientists and teachers are highly trusted by Democratic voters, "among Republicans, doctors are highly trusted by only 48%, scientists by 28%, and teachers by 31%. Republicans place high trust in police officers (65%) but only 22% of Democrats have that same level of trust." "Americans lack a collective sense of whom to trust," Lussier said, which "helps to explain why it is so hard to build a consensus for solving the country's problems." Perhaps most important of all, for at least the last 50 years right-wing libertarians and other extremists have advanced a strategy to undermine faith in American democracy and the idea of government itself. This has created a space for right-wing political entrepreneurs to expand their power and influence by convincing large portions of the white American public that democratic government is illegitimate if it does not secure continued white supremacy. In total, Americans are collectively experiencing a moment of social and political alienation, in which many of their fellow citizens are willingly surrendering to the forces of demobilization and authoritarianism. Philosopher and political theorist Sheldon Wolin described such a moment in his book "Democracy Incorporated: Managed Democracy and the Specter of Inverted Totalitarianism": Antidemocracy does not take the form of overt attacks upon the idea of government by the people. Instead, politically it means encouraging what I have earlier dubbed "civic demobilization," conditioning an electorate to being aroused for a brief spell, controlling its attention span, and then encouraging distraction or apathy. The intense pace of work and the extended working day, combined with job insecurity, is a formula for political demobilization, for privatizing the citizenry. It works indirectly. Citizens are encouraged to distrust their government and politicians; to concentrate upon their own interests; to begrudge their taxes; and to exchange active involvement for symbolic gratifications of patriotism, collective self-righteousness, and military prowess. Above all, depoliticization is promoted through society's being enveloped in an atmosphere of collective fear and of individual powerlessness: fear of terrorists, loss of jobs, the uncertainties of pension plans, soaring health costs, and rising educational expenses. Ultimately, who is to blame for the American public's passivity in the face of an escalating neofascist threat? Of course Republicans and other members of the "conservative" movement are the most clearly guilty. President Biden and the other leaders of the Democratic Party and the "liberal" or "centrist" leadership class are also responsible, to the degree they did not rapidly identify the threat and respond accordingly. Right-wing libertarians and neoliberal gangster capitalists, who for years have longed who to destroy the commons and social democracy in order to create a society where profits rule over people in all areas of life, are also responsible. They weakened the social fabric to such an extent that it was much easier for neofascism to take root. However this dark chapter in American history concludes, and whatever the next chapter may hold, there will be many Americans (largely white people in the privileged classes) who will exclaim in all sincerity: How could such a thing have happened? Are we not better than this? The answer to such questions will stare back at them from the mirror every morning -- and even then they will deny responsibility. CHAUNCEY DEVEGA Chauncey DeVega is a politics staff writer for Salon https://www.salon.com/2021/12/30/wi...sponds-lol-cares-lets-netflix-and-chill/just putting this here for bonefish.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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https://www.salon.com/2021/12/30/with-fascism-coming-america-responds-lol-cares-lets-netflix-and-chill/?user_id=*%7CEMAIL%7C* Great, however it doesn't address how, on this thread, we got the two situations mixed.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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A new year of "Get Trump" and still...
NADA!
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Happy New Year, 40! And getting Trump will happen in time. Sooner or later, they'll get all of you insurrectionists. Time is on our side, because Trump will always be Trump, his own worst enemy. But on the bright side for you, he'll probably die from old age, his fat life habits, or senility before we get a chance to put the traitor's noose on him. But make no mistake about it, this traitorous trash is gonna get got.
There is good news for you though, no matter what happens out here in the real world, it won't change politics in the trailer park echo chamber… So you get to keep your delusions, until they deport all the unsalvageable Trump enablers, or you hit the re-education camps.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 01/01/22 11:46 AM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
-PrplPplEater
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A new year of "Get Trump" and still...
NADA! Your problem, like so many trumpians is that you want instant gratification. Just like the conclusions Trumpians jump too..... January 1st, ad you post "A new year of "Get Trump" and still NADA>.. Premature at the very least... But typical trumpian Prepare yourself.....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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So I have put up with your "Get Trump" antics for 5 years now and still NADA. How long is instant to you guys anyway? I think maybe never because you are constantly wrong. No Russian Spy. No Collusion. No Quid Pro Quo. Fake Dossier. Now this. 
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Most of what was contained in the dossier was shown to be true. Some of it was not. Trump said and I quote.... "We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore,"
With which they marched to the capital and did exactly that. Facts are not your friend.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Sometimes you have to take your time to get rid of the entire infestation. Those of us with eyes living in reality can see the rats jumping ship, so hopefully you won't wait much longer.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Bro 40 is celebrating the SCARED GOPer congress that would not remove a twice impeached president. He's celebrating traitor Trump's Helsinki debacle. He's celebrating good people on both sides. Hopefully soon, all the trolls will be forced back into their holes. The lemmings have already run off the cliff… but there are millions more following Trump.
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 01/02/22 01:25 PM.
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Sometimes you have to take your time to get rid of the entire infestation. Those of us with eyes living in reality can see the rats jumping ship, so hopefully you won't wait much longer. Well it must take over 5 years to shovel the pile of BS you libs have been creating.
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Only because GOPer lemmings were too scared to take him down. All the Gopers in the Senate are fascists and/or cowards. The entire party should be removed and not allowed to run for anywhere for at least 10 years due to the attempted coup.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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So I have put up with your "Get Trump" antics for 5 years now and still NADA. How long is instant to you guys anyway? I think maybe never because you are constantly wrong. No Russian Spy. No Collusion. No Quid Pro Quo. Fake Dossier. Now this. Probably should back that horse up a little.. As always, what you have done is take the word of a few supporters in congress and run with it. You know don't you that Trump has done everything he can to obstruct.. we don't know what is true....YET As an example of someone that doesn't feel they did anything wrong, look no further than Hillary Clinton and the Bengazi investigation.. She sat there for 11 hours, answered every question, didn't blink and turned over everything that was requested...And yet here we are 8 years later and still nothing.. Trump hides everything.. I always wonder about anyone that professes to be innocent yet hides everything.... If your innocent, why hide? I can't help it if you fell for his lies...That's on you.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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They can't admit that the truth is Hillary has bigger balls than Trump.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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They can't admit that the truth is Hillary has bigger balls than Trump. True enough... What's really funny, if you remember, Hillary said he would do what he did... Damn near to the word...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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I'm learning to like Liz.. For many many years, I was a republican.. I believed as Liz said in smaller government, lower taxes etc....
I've never been in favor of taxes so low that we can't do the things we need to do like roads and bridges. I have never been in favor of telling women that they can't get an abortion, not offer assistance with the baby, all the while holding the man harmless in the situation. They are at least 50% responsible and need to be held responsible.
Trumpians don't get the "Big Picture".. they only see what they want to see with little or no regard to effects down the line....
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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If you have not figured it out, the Republicans of today do not stand for anything other than not being a democrat.
Republicans only believe in small government when a democrat is in office. They spend just as much, just on different things.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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You guys better get ready to start part 3 of "Get Trump".
So far, NADA!
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Legend
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Somebody squeezed into his full body trolling condom again today. In and out of threads, dropping one liners, and bolting. And with covfefe brains, the insurrectionist thinks Trump is somehow winning. Trump sure found a chump in this one. Probably still sending Trump money, too, while cuddling his Trumpy Bear and hiding in his troll hole. Hilarious and sad at the same time.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,809 Likes: 1348 |
Part one isn't even over yet.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 42,128 Likes: 134 |
And in case you missed it, trumpians running down BLM, Antifa, Libs, or bystanders because they don't like their politics is exactly why GOPer states want these laws. So they can legally murder the OTHER. That is NEVER going to fly. That is exactly it.. They want to make murder legal.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Legend
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OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,670 Likes: 673 |
Republicans’ Jan. 6 ResponsibilityThe GOP has a duty to condemn the riot and those who refuse to acknowledge it. By Karl RoveJan. 5, 2022 6:15 pm ET We’re in an acrimonious period of partisan tribalism and have been for some time. Both parties are guilty of overwrought denunciations of their political opponents. My criticisms are often aimed at Democrats; on the anniversary of Jan. 6, I’m addressing squarely those Republicans who for a year have excused the actions of the rioters who stormed the Capitol, disrupted Congress as it received the Electoral College’s results, and violently attempted to overturn the election. These apologists say those who stormed the Capitol were innocent patriots, tourists visiting the seat of the national government to petition their elected representatives peacefully. We’re told that these harmless, ordinary Americans are being persecuted as political prisoners. Let’s stipulate that while the thousands who went to the Capitol a year ago were wrong to insist the election was stolen, most weren’t violent as they exercised their First Amendment rights to gather peacefully on the Mall—just as I had seen liberals gather to protest both inaugurations of President George W. Bush. But last year there were several thousand protesters willing to use force to disrupt Congress in its constitutional duty to receive and certify the electoral vote. Some went to Washington with that purpose in mind. Others were swept up in the moment’s savagery, led astray by stronger wills with dangerous motives. The leaders of this group were intent on committing violence, some having planned to do so for weeks. Many wore tactical gear. Some came armed with chemical agents, flagpoles, batons and sticks. They broke through barricades and assaulted approximately 140 police officers, in some cases with an officer’s own shield or gear. They smashed doors and windows, illegally entered the Capitol, ransacked offices and searched for leaders of Congress, and made dire threats about what would happen if they found them. More than 725 people have been charged so far, and law enforcement is searching for hundreds more suspects who appear on video or social media, some recorded attacking police officers. At least 163 people have pleaded guilty, and 71 have been sentenced. Only one defendant’s charges have been dismissed. Many of the most serious trials have yet to be held, as lawyers prepare defenses or negotiate plea deals. So, on this anniversary, here’s a simple thought experiment: What if the other side had done it? What if in early January 2017, Democrats similarly attired and armed had stormed the Capitol and attempted to keep Congress from receiving the Electoral College results for the 2016 presidential election? What if Democrats claimed that Donald Trump’s razor-thin victories in Michigan, Pennsylvania and Wisconsin resulted from extensive voter fraud and should be rejected, despite having failed to establish in a single court that extensive fraud had actually occurred? What if some of these Democrats breached the Capitol defenses and threatened violence against the Republican speaker, Paul Ryan, and Republican Senate majority leader, Mitch McConnell ? What if they insisted that in his role as Senate president then-Vice President Joe Biden had sole authority to seat Hillary Clinton’s electors from any contested states and thereby hand her the presidency? If this happened, would some of my fellow Republicans have accepted it as merely a protest? Would they have called patriots those charged with violent acts against our country, its laws and Constitution? Would they have accepted such extralegal means to change the outcome of a presidential election? No they would not. I’m certain of that. If Democrats had done what some Trump supporters did on that violent Jan. 6, Republicans would have criticized them mercilessly and been right to do so. Republicans would have torched any high official who encouraged violence or stood mute while it was waged and been right to do so. Republicans would have demanded an investigation to find who was responsible for the violence and been right to do so. To move beyond Jan. 6, 2021, we must put country ahead of party. For Democrats, that means resisting their leadership’s petty habit of aggravating partisan fault lines by indiscriminately condemning all who came to Washington that day. We Republicans have a heavier burden. I’ve been a Republican my entire life, and believe in what the Republican Party, at its best, has represented for decades. There can be no soft-pedaling what happened and no absolution for those who planned, encouraged and aided the attempt to overthrow our democracy. Love of country demands nothing less. That’s true patriotism. https://www.wsj.com/articles/republ...ump-protesters-investigation-11641417707
Last edited by OldColdDawg; 01/06/22 08:50 AM.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Hall of Famer
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Happy Holiday Libs!!!! Enjoy it!
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 12,627 Likes: 590 |
That's a decent piece by Karl Rove. No doubt he is the next Republican to get the RINO label ! The last paragraph is nice and succinct. . . . it would be nice if he would also write something black and white on the lies about election fraud and the laws being changed to make voting harder. Both equally as important and linked directly to Jan 6th.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 32,670 Likes: 673 |
What did you make of Biden's and Harris' speeches this morning? I think it will just put off GOPers, while infuriating dems that want people to pay for the 6th. And who the hell came up with the idea to call this a celebration? Celebration of what, exactly, I ask? Patriotism? That will get conflated with Trumpism on the right. Or are we celebrating democracy at a time when our is all but broken? Today is more a day of condemnation than anything else. Dems condemning the far right for it's actions on the 6th. And GOPers condemning dems for not just letting it go… Biden's speech did nothing to move us forward this morning. But I'm still glad he came out and pinned it on Trump.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,809 Likes: 1348 |
Transcript of Biden's speech. Madam Vice President, fellow Americans. To state the obvious, one year ago today, in this sacred place, democracy was attacked. Simply attacked. The will of the people was under assault. The Constitution, our constitution, faced the gravest of threats.
Outnumbered in the face of a brutal attack, Capitol Police, the DC Metropolitan Police Department, the National Guard and other brave law enforcement officials saved the rule of law.
Our democracy held. We the people endured. We the people prevailed.
For the first time in our history, a president had not just lost an election; he tried to prevent the peaceful transfer of power as a violent mob breached the Capitol. But they failed. They failed.
And on this day of remembrance we must make sure that such an attack never, ever happens again. I'm speaking to you today from Statuary Hall in the United States Capitol. This is where the House of Representatives met for 50 years in the decades leading up to the Civil War.
It is on this floor where a young congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln, sat at desk 191. Above him — above us — over that door leading into the rotunda is a sculpture depicting Clio, the muse of history. In her hands, an open book in which she records the events taking place in this chamber below. Clio stood watch over this hall one year ago today, as she has for more than 200 years.
She recorded what took place. The real history. The real facts. The real truth. The facts and the truth that Vice President Harris just shared and that you and I and the whole world saw with our own eyes.
The Bible tells us that 'We shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free.' We shall know the truth. Well, here is the God's truth about January 6, 2021.
Close your eyes. Go back to that day. What do you see? Rioters rampaging. Waving, for the first time inside this Capitol, the Confederate flag that symbolizes the cause to destroy America. To rip us apart.
Even during the Civil War that never, ever happened. But it happened here in 2021. What else do you see? The mob breaking windows, kicking in doors, breaching the Capitol. American flags on poles being used as weapons, as spears.
Fire extinguishers being thrown at the heads of police officers. A crowd that professes their love for law enforcement assaulted those police officers. Dragged them, sprayed them, stomped on them. Over 140 police officers were injured.
We all heard the police officers who were there that day testify to what happened. One officer called it "a medieval battle" and that he was more afraid that day than he was fighting the war in Iraq. They've repeatedly asked since that day, how dare anyone, anyone, diminish, belittle or deny the hell they were put through? We saw with our own eyes. Rioters menaced these halls, threatening life of the Speaker of the House, literally erecting gallows to hang the Vice President of the United States of America.
But what did we not see? We didn't see a former president who just rallied the mob to attack sitting in the private dining room of the Oval Office in the White House watching it all on television and doing nothing for hours.
Police were assaulted. Lives at risk. The nation's Capitol under siege. This wasn't a group of tourists. This was an armed insurrection. They weren't looking to uphold the will of the people; they were looking to deny the will of the people. They're weren't looking to uphold a free and fair election. They were looking to overturn one. Then weren't looking to save the cause of America. They were looking to subvert the Constitution.
This isn't about being bogged down past. It's about making sure the past isn't buried. That's the only way forward. That's what great nations do. They don't bury the truth; they face up to it. Sounds like hyperbole, but that's your truth. They face up to it.
We are a great nation. My fellow Americans, in life there's truth and tragically there are lies. Lies conceived and spread for profit and power. We must be absolutely clear about what is true and what is a lie. And here's the truth: The former president of the United States of America has created and spread a web of lies about the 2020 election.
He's done so because he values power over principle, because he sees his own interest as more important than his country's interest, than America's interest. And because his bruised ego matters more to him than our democracy or our Constitution.
He can't accept he lost even though that's what 93 United States senators, his own attorney general, his own vice president, governors and state officials in every battleground state have all said: He lost.
That's what 81 million of you did as you voted for a new way forward. He's done what no president in American history, in the history of this country, has ever, ever done.
He refused to accept the results of an election and the will of the American people. While some courageous men and women in the Republican Party are standing against it, trying to uphold the principle of that party, too many others are transforming that party into something else. They seem no longer to want to be the party of Lincoln, Eisenhower, Reagan, the Bushes.
Well, whatever my other disagreements are with Republicans who support the rule of law, and not the rule of a single man, I will always seek to work together with them. To find shared solutions where possible. Because when we have a shared belief in democracy, then anything is possible. Anything.
So at this moment, we must decide: What kind of nation are we going to be?
Are we going to be a nation that accepts political violence as a norm? Are we going to be a nation where we allow partisan election officials to overturn the legally expressed will of the people? Are are going to be a nation that lives not by the light of the truth but in the shadow of lies? We cannot allow ourselves to be that kind of nation.
The way forward is to recognize the truth. To live by it. The "Big Lie" being told by the former president, and many Republicans who fear his wrath, is that the insurrection in this country actually took place on Election Day, November 3, 2020. Think about that. Is that what you thought? Is that what you thought when you voted that day? Taking part in an insurrection? Is that what you thought you were doing? Or did you think you were carrying out your highest duty as a citizen and voting?
The former presidents' supporters are trying to rewrite history. They want you to see election day is the day of insurrectionand the riots that took place here on January 6 as a true expression of the will of the people. Can you think of a more twisted way to look at this country, to look at America? I cannot.
Here's the truth. The election of 2020 was the greatest demonstration of democracy in the history of this country. More of you voted in that election than have ever voted in all of American history. Over 150 million Americans went to the polls and voted that day, in a pandemic, some at great risk to their lives. And they should be applauded, not attacked.
Right now, in state after state, new laws are being written not to protect the vote, but to deny it. Not only to suppress the vote, but to subvert it. Not to strengthen and protect our democracy, but because the former president lost instead of looking at the election results in 2020, and saying they need new ideas or better ideas to win more votes. The former president and his supporters have decided the only way for them to win is to suppress your vote and subvert our elections. It's wrong. It's undemocratic. And frankly, it's un-American.
The second "Big Lie" being told by the former president's supporters is that the results of the election of 2020 can't be trusted. The truth is that no election, no election in American history has been more closely scrutinized or more carefully counted.
Every legal challenge questioning the results in every court in this country that could have been made, was made and was rejected. Often rejected by Republican-appointed judges, including judges appointed by the former president himself. From state courts to the United States Supreme Court. Recounts were undertaken in state after state.
Georgia, Georgia counted its results three times, with one recount by hand. Phony partisan audits were undertaken long after the election in several states. None change the results.
In some of them, the irony is the margin of victory actually grew slightly. So let's speak plainly about what happened in 2020.
Even before the first ballot was cast, the former president was preemptively sowing doubt about the election results. He built his lie over months. It wasn't based in the facts. He was just looking for an excuse, a pretext to cover for the truth. He's not just a former president. He's a defeated former president.
Defeated by a margin of over 7 million of your votes. In a full and free and fair election. There is simply zero proof the election results are inaccurate. In fact, in every venue where evidence had to be produced, an oath to tell the truth had to be taken, the former president failed to make his case. Just think about this: The former president and his supporters have never been able to explain how they accept as accurate other election results that took place on November 3rd. Elections for governor, United States Senate, House of Representatives, elections in which they close the gap in the House.
They challenged none of that. The president's name was first. Then we went down the line. Governor, senators, House of Representatives, somehow those results are accurate on the same ballot. But the presidential race was flawed. And on the same ballot, same day, cast by the same voters. The only difference: the former president didn't lose those races. He just the lost the one that was his own.
Finally, the third "Big Lie being" told by a former president and his supporters is that the mob who sought to impose their will through violence are the nation's true patriots. Is that what you thought when you looked at the mob, ransacking the Capitol, destroying property, literally defecating in the hallways, rifling through the desks of senators and representatives, hunting down members of Congress? Patriots? Not in my view. To me, the true patriots are the more than 150 Americans who peacefully expressed their vote at the ballot box, the election workers for protecting the integrity of the vote and the heroes who defended this Capitol. You can't love your country only when you win, you can't obey the law only when it’s convenient. You can't be patriotic when you embrace and enable lies.
Those who stormed this Capitol and those who instigated and incited and those who called on them to do so held a dagger at the throat of America and American democracy. They didn't come here out of patriotism or principle. They came here in rage. Not in service of America, rather in service of one man. Those who incited the mob, the real plotters who were desperate to deny the certification of this election, to defy the will of the voters. Their plot was foiled. Congress, Democrats, Republicans stayed. Senators, representatives, staff, they finished their work the Constitution demanded. They honored their oath to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
Look folks, now it's up to all of us, we the people, to stand for the rule of law, to preserve the flame of democracy, to keep the promise of America alive. The promise is at risk, targeted by the forces that value brute strength over the sanctity of democracy, fear over hope, personal gain over public good. Make no mistake about it, we're living at an inflection point in history, both at home and abroad.
We're engaged anew in a struggle between democracy and autocracy, between the aspirations of the many and the greed of the few, between the people's right of self-determination and self-seeking autocrat. From China to Russia and beyond, they're betting that democracy’s days are numbered. They actually told me democracy is too slow, too bogged down by division to succeed in today's rapidly changing complicated world. And they're betting, they’re betting America will become more like them and less like us. They’re betting America’s a place for the autocrat, the dictator, the strong man. I do not believe that. That is not who we are. That is not who we have ever been. And that is not who we should ever ever be.
Our founding fathers, as imperfect as they were, set in motion an experiment that changed the world, literally changed the world. Here in America, the people would ruled. Power would be transferred peacefully, never at the tip of the spear or the barrel of a gun. They committed to paper an idea that they couldn’t live up to, but an idea that couldn't be constrained.
Yes, in America, all people are created equal, and reject a view that if you succeed, I fail. If you get ahead, I fall behind. If I hold you down, I somehow lift myself up. The former president lies about this election and the mob that attacked this Capitol could not be further away from the core American values. They want to rule or they will ruin, ruin what our country fought for at Lexington and Concord, at Gettysburg and Omaha Beach, Seneca Falls, Selma, Alabama. What were we fighting for? The right to vote, the right to govern ourselves. The right to determine our own destiny. With rights come responsibilities, responsibility to see each other as neighbors. Maybe we disagree with that neighbor but they're not an adversary. The responsibility to accept defeat, then get back in the arena and try again the next time to make your case. Responsibility to see that America is an idea, and idea that requires vigilant stewardship.
As we stand here today, one year since January 6 2021, the lies that drove the anger and madness we saw in this place, they have not abated. So we have to be firm, resolute and unyielding in our defense. The right to vote, to have that vote counted.
Some of us made the ultimate sacrifice in this sacred effort. Jill and I mourned police officers in this Capitol Rotunda not once but twice in the wake of January 6th. Once to honor Officer Brian Sicknick, who lost his life the day after the attack and a second time to honor Officer Billy Evans, who lost his life defending this Capitol as well. Think about the others who lost their lives and everyone living with the trauma of that day. Those defending this Capitol, to members of Congress of both parties and their staffs, to reporters, cafeteria workers, custodial workers and their families. Don't kid yourself, the pain and scars from that day were deep. I’ve said it many times, and it's no more true or real, when we think about the events of January 6. We are in a battle for the soul of America. A battle but by the grace of God, the goodness and greatness of this nation, we will win.
Believe me, I know how difficult democracy is, but I’m crystal clear about the threats America faces. I also know that our darkest days can lead to light and hope. The death and destruction the vice president referenced that Pearl Harbor came to triumph over the forces of fascism. From the brutality of Bloody Sunday, the Edmund Pettus Bridge, came historic voting rights legislation. So now let's step up, write the next chapter in American history. For January 6 marks not the end of democracy but the beginning of a renaissance of liberty and fair play. I did not seek this fight brought to this Capital One year ago today. But I will not shrink from it either. I will stand in this breach. I will defend this nation, not allow no one to place a dagger at the throat of democracy. We will make sure the will of the people is heard, that the battle prevails, not violence, that authority of this nation will always be peacefully transferred. I believe the power of the presidency and the purpose is to unite this nation. Not divide it, to lift us up, not tear us apart. It’s about us, not about me.
Deep in the heart of America burns a flame lit almost 250 years ago of liberty, freedom and equality. This is not a land of kings or dictators or autocrats. We're a nation of laws, of order, not chaos, of peace, not violence. Here in America, the people who through the ballot and their will prevails. So let us remember together. We're one nation, under God, indivisible, that today, tomorrow and forever at our best, we are the United States of America.
God bless you all. God protect our troops, and may God bless those who stand watch over democracy.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,809 Likes: 1348 |
Happy Holiday Libs!!!! Enjoy it! As per usual your failure to own up to reality never disappoints. I bet you still call Martin Luther King Day, James Earl Ray Day too.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Joined: Mar 2013
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Hall of Famer
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Happy Holiday Libs!!!! Enjoy it! As per usual your failure to own up to reality never disappoints. I bet you still call Martin Luther King Day, James Earl Ray Day too. See there is where you are wrong. James Earl Ray was a Democrat and I do not support him. He deserved the punishment he got. I do however support and endorse all that Martin Luther King stood for. He was a very good man. I wish the Progressives in this Country would follow MLK's ideals and not Malcom X's hateful ideals which they follow today.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,809 Likes: 1348 |
You must be speaking of the small percentage of those who rioted during the summer protests. And I notice you still aren't speaking out against Jan. 6th. Actually it sounds like you're glorifying it by saying "Happy Holiday Libs!!!!"
I was more than willing to speak out against those who were involved in criminal activity during the summer and said they should be caught and convicted of their crimes. Everyone I can think of that you label as "libs" did the same.
Sad, just sad.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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You must be speaking of the small percentage of those who rioted during the summer protests. And I notice you still aren't speaking out against Jan. 6th. Actually it sounds like you're glorifying it by saying "Happy Holiday Libs!!!!"
I was more than willing to speak out against those who were involved in criminal activity during the summer and said they should be caught and convicted of their crimes. Everyone I can think of that you label as "libs" did the same.
Sad, just sad. Don't be mad. I wished you well on your holiday.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
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Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 67,809 Likes: 1348 |
See, just more senseless BS to avoid admitting what really happened. It's a disease with some of you. 47% of Republicans believe that storming the capital was Patriotism and 56% of them considered it defending freedom. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/january-6-opinion-poll-2022/And with 140 police officers injured, all you have is jokes. So much for #bluelivesmatter BTW- Watching stupidity doesn't make me mad. It makes me feel pity.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus January 6th Fallout p2
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