DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Baker Mayfield continued

I will state it again, no quality WR is going to come to the Browns (or upgrade at QB if you see fit) to get an immediate reduction of 25% to 30% in the passing game. These players future contracts are based on production, catches, yardage, and TD's. What player in his mid-twenties would ever consider signing with a team that is going to reduce his opportunities for success by 30%? As a fan, you can jump on that bandwagon of "run run run" but the reality is no top-notch receiver wants to play on that type of team. Championships, playoffs are a year-to-year item but contracts comprise 4-5 years and are highly dependent on the expected future level of production and past results. Coming to Cleveland as a skilled player (WR, TE, QB) as it currently stands with the Stefanski scheme is a death sentence for future contracts. OBJ saw that as did Diggs when in Minnesota playing for Stefanski. That's not a one off, that's a trend. 8 of the top 9 passers in yardage have already punched their ticket to the playoffs with Carr needing a win on Sunday to make it 9 out of 9. Tom Brady has had 264 more pass attempts than Baker this year. 12 of the 14 playoff spots are secured by the top 18 in passing yardage (which is 85.7% without Carr). You cannot win consistently in this league unless you move the ball through the air. Even if you move down to the middle of the pack for passing yardage (10th), that QB has thrown for 961 more yards than Mayfield and has had 121 more attempts.

Njoku is gone because he will naturally want a big raise and you can't increase his salary after paying him for 34 catches in 2021 at 6 million. Come on people, he's only caught 146 passes in five years or 29.2 per year. How many years do you think he needs to finally break out? Keep in mind, Kelce for KCC has caught 88 passes this year and 105 last year. That works out to Kelce catching 47 more passes in 2-years than it took Njoku 5-years to collect. Resigning Njoku would be stupider than what they are paying Hooper. Landry isn't going to take a pay cut, what's in it for him if he takes the cut? Less targets and a further slide on his 2023 contract? After what happened with OBJ, I suspect Landry is either gone or playing at his current contract rate. Higgins is toast - nuff said. That leaves FA's and the draft. FA's are a joke because as I said - NO QUALITY WR IS COMING TO CLEVELAND WITH THE CURRENT OFFENSIVE SCHEME. Neither is a QB so you can forget about that too. That leaves the draft to fill the void. 1st round picks have only a 50% chance of getting their 5th year option. 2nd and 3rd round picks are considerably lower on the success scale. For every Jefferson or Chase there are 10 times that many in the first 3 rounds that don't make it. That's why the draft is such a crap shoot.

Don't get me wrong, building through the draft is the way to go and if you're lucky you build a good team. Then you use the draft to bring in the next wave and it's a continuous cycle for those teams that do it right. We are talking about a complete retool of the WR corp mostly through the draft. That is problematic.

First and foremost, the play calling needs to be taken away from Stefanski. Second, the Browns most likely will have to find an Offensive Coordinator that will build an offense to the skill sets of the players but specifically to Mayfield's skill set. If that doesn't happen, what you saw with our WR/TE group in 2021 will look like a walk in the park compared to the horrors we'll see in 2022 with Peoples-Jones being the Browns #1WR if Landry darts. Not only that but expect Baker to dart after the season and Stefanski to be fired, Then the next multi-year or multi-decade rebuild will start in 2023!

The Browns offense is basically the same as the Vikings. So how is it that Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Tyler Conklin are so much more productive than our skill players?

Answer: they are considerably more talented.

And has nothing to do with the QB of their respective teams? PFF has plainly shown that we have more open WR's than anyone on pass plays. But you must have a QB that can scan the field and find them. If and when that happens, our WR's and TE's would probably look a lot better. Don't get me wrong, they're not world beaters by any stretch. But if they're getting open on pass plays, which they are, and our QB isn't finding them and getting them the ball, they are certainly going to look much worse than they actually are.

I'm not one of those people trying to lay all of the blame on Baker for this season. But I'm also not one that is going to blame others for his obvious shortcomings. And that's one of them.

I think it's highly unlikely we'll be able to lose, or even demote Hooper. I think it's unlikely we'll hang on to Njoku. I think our TE group is super weak.

That said, I think both our TE and WR groups, as they are, probably run circles around what he'll have to work with if he returns to Houston. I think it's tough to tell what he WOULDN'T do to have our Oline and RB group.

Within the confines of the hypothetical situation of bringing Watson to Cleveland, we have to force ourselves to get comfy with the team we have in place. Bringing Watson here won't be easy, and will require lots and lots of draft capital. No massive overhauls (via draft) will be happening in the next 2+ offseasons.

You better check your facts. The Vikings do not run the same type of offense. They almost never run a 3-TE set. Currently Cousins has had 539 total pass attempts and 3,971 yards passing while Mayfield has had 418 attempts for 3,010 yards. That's 121 more attempts for Cousins than Mayfield and 961 more yards passing for Cousins. Rushing wise, the Vikings are currently 15th in rushing with 1826 rush yards compared to the Browns being 5th with 2,226 rush yards.

However, in 2019 when Stefanski was at Minnesota, the Vikings were 6th in rushing with 2,133 yards and the Browns were 13th with 1,901 yards. Passing though shows Mayfield with 534 attempts pre Stefanski for 3,827 yards while Cousins only had 444 attempts for 3,603 yards. That means Mayfield had 90 more attempts for 224 more yards than Cousins in 2019 or pre Stefanski. In 2019, the Vikings had Diggs, Theilen, and Rudolph which I would say was every bit as good as the 3 they currently have. The difference is there's more passing opportunities in 2021 than there was in 2019 under Stefanski.

I'm not disputing the fact that Mayfield had some issues to work on following the 2019 season. What I am saying is that rather than build an offense to his skill set and fix the techniques making him more accurate, Stefanski installed a scheme that all but eliminated the explosiveness of the WR position, installed a 3-TE set to run the ball and made Baker a game manager rather than the gunslinging Heisman Trophy winner the Browns drafted #1. He did the exact same thing in Minnesota causing Diggs and Rudolph to bolt and he's doing it here in Cleveland.

The difference between the Browns and other 2021 NFL teams - the other team's scheme to the strengths of their skilled players. I don't see Baltimore telling Jackson he can't run. Nor are they doing that with Hurt in PHI. CIN isn't telling Burrows to hand the ball off to Mixon because he has 1,200 yards rushing and ignore Chase, Higgins and Boyd. ARI built their entire offense around Murray. The point is the Browns just wasted 2-years of Mayfield's development by trying to make him into a type QB he is not. Now we are in a do or die year not knowing anymore about our supposed franchise QB than we did in 2019. IMHO that's problematic and clearly exposes the weakness of the head coach.

Does Cousins have a torn labrum? I didn't think so. You can't run the exact same offense you would with a healthy QB.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness. I can do that with nearly anybody for nearly anything.

For me it is all about his availability. If he goes to jail he can't play, and if he is suspended, he can't play. Tell me he can on both of those counts and I am with you, Bubba.

What's really sad is that in that 2017 draft Hue called Deshaun and told him we were going to take him then for whatever reason we didn't. We passed on Big Ben in '04 and DW in '17. We've deserved what we've gotten with poor decisions like that and those weren't the only ones as we all know.

Ditto, but if you don't see a trend with Stefanski you're blind - the players obviously see it! This off season will expose it even more.

We'll see. I see some problems on several fronts and some of the play calling by Stefanski being one of them. Not as often as some others, but there is a problem at times.

I was simply showing how a part of your comparison really doesn't hold water because of the circumstances.

Looks like Baker wife is in here posting with several alias..

It must be, I cannot think of another explanation.

Are they though? Compare the 2019 Vikings to the 2020 Browns, both with Stefanski calling the plays..

Vikings top 4 WRs (Diggs, Thielen, Johnson, Treadwell - counting missed games, these 4 played in 54 games)
133 receptions for 2026 yards and 16 TDs
Cousins played in 15 games
444 attempts (69.1% completions) for 3603 yards, 26 TDs and 6 INTs


Browns top 5 WRs (Landry, Higgins, Beckham, Peoples-Jones, Hodge - counting missed games, these 5 played in 56 games)
157 receptions for 2242 yards and 12 TDs
Mayfield played in 16 games
486 attempts (62.8% completions) for 3563 yards, 26 TDs, and 8 INTs

It's a limited sample but... it's almost like those are the numbers the offensive scheme is designed to get...

Don't forget that we passed on Aaron Rodgers at a time when we were cycling through Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer, and Charlie Frye...

I hope that makes you feel better.

And 23 other teams passed on Rodgers as well.

for those of you who want Watson... sounds like he will get convicted of a bunch of stuff. which likely end his career in the NFL


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/sports/football/deshaun-watson-accusers-police-reports.html


Buzbee now represents 22 women who have sued Watson.

In addition to the 10 women who have spoken to Houston police, the F.B.I. is investigating the case, according to Buzbee and Watson’s attorney, Rusty Hardin. Watson has spoken to the F.B.I., and Hardin has said agents are investigating one of Buzbee’s clients for extortion, while Buzbee has said they are investigating Watson’s conduct.

Last month, a Houston television station reported that a grand jury had been convened in the case. Under Texas law, every potential felony charge goes before a grand jury.

In an interview earlier this week, Hardin said, “Every single week we are finding out more that makes us increasingly more comfortable that none of these cases will lead to valid criminal charges.”


https://torotimes.com/2022/01/05/deshaun-watson-deposition/

Deshaun Watson‘s situation is well-known to everyone in the sports world right now. Facing 22 civil sexual misconduct and assault lawsuits, the world has been waiting until the day he is due in a legal office/building. That date is quickly approaching, barring any delays. The date of Watson’s deposition is February 22nd.



Unless 22 settlements happen (which at one point Watson had 18 of them ready to settle), then Watson’s court date for a trial would be set for May 2nd of this year, as Sean Pendergast of the Houston Press wrote in an article last May.

Uhhh... the article you copy pasted kinda make it sound like things are looking to go in his favor.

Yes, but I bet you haven't played football before.

What does that have to do with reading an article about Watson's legal stuff progressing?

That went over your head, and I don't have a lot of interest in explaining. Kind of surprising since you have commented on my posting habits from over a year ago.

j/c -

Does everyone see now how toxic poor QB play is? Why I am so critical? Then you mix poor QB play with mental insecurity, and you have a bomb.

In a single year, this is what poor QB play has gotten the Browns -

1. Stefanski went from COTY to people wondering if he is any good.
2. The skill position players went from top 5 in the league to bottom 5.
3. The Haslams went from staying away from football stuff to meddling (speculation).
4. The number one receiver wanted off the team.
5. The camaraderie that the team enjoyed last year is gone. Players are picking sides.
6. The OL got worse at run blocking.
7. Losing season.
8. No playoffs.
9. Complete and utter dysfunction.

Mayfield is thin skinned and not very good. This is the root of the Browns issues. If they had better QB play, the Browns would have won more games, been in the playoffs, and none of this other stuff would have happened.

The NFL is all about the QB.

Does anyone think Matt LaFleur is actually a good coach? Think about this for a second. I think he's the winningest coach in his first three years. We all know the reason why.

Ok....

Well, since I comment on your posting habits...

Half the stuff on your list doesn't have anything to do with Baker.

1. People are questioning Stefanski's coaching chops because he's done stuff like leave a rookie 4th rounder 1-1 with the NFL sack leader and didn't adjust.
2. Injuries and departures did that.
3. Has Haslam even said anything lately?
4. This might be true
5. Also might be true
6. While Baker not playing well makes their job harder, it doesn't make their run-blocking worse. Injuries do that, though.
7, 8. Injuries the other previously mentioned things do this as well.
9. Is there dysfunction [sic]? I don't think so, and I would think the last couple decades would help us know disfunction when we see it.


It's gonna bug me not getting the joke between the update to Watson's legal issues and me not playing football.

John Paul Football has chimed in...

Re-organized your post to show you that you answered your own question


If they didn't suspend Brown? Then why would they suspend Watson?

The NFL is hypocritical.

As for being presumed innocent... that is in a court of law, not the court of public opinion, and certainly not in the NFL.

The NFL has precedent that they will suspend you even if the case does not go to court.

While AB should have been suspended for the fake vaccination card, covid vaccine mandates are a controversial topic in this country. Any kind of misbehavior agaist a female is currently a hot button topic.

Brown was suspended for 3 games.

If ever there were an expert on what a dumpster fire is.......

Trent Dilfer was interviewed on local sports talk radio (92.3 The Fan, Carman & Lima) yesterday. He is not in agreement with Mayfield, Weeden, Kizer, or DA about Mary Kay. But he is also a big Baker fan, and he offers a way forward for Baker to salvage the relationship with the Browns and to flourish going forward. Its 24:50 long, but worth a listen, IMO.

https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/authors/the-ken-carman-show-with-anthony-lima

(Titled "Trent Dilfer: I hurt for Baker and I hurt for Cleveland")

Take this for what it is worth.

Listened to a podcast
https://www.cleveland.com/orange-an...go-orange-and-brown-talk-roundtable.html


Background:
The roundtable consisted of Dan Labbe, Mary Kay Cabot, Doug Lesmerisis, Scott Patko and Ashley Bastock. When they were talking about whether or not to bring some of the TE's back or not, one of them said about one of the TE's (don't remember which one) that he just didn't click with Baker, So if we bring Baker back they wouldn't bring that TE back.

Point:
Then Mary Kay said something along the lines of... I think most of us here don't think Baker will be the Browns Qb next season.
None objected to the validity of that statement.

Again, take it for what it is worth, but outside of the team, these are the folks with the most informed opinions on this topic.

I'm not so sure they have "the most informed opinion" or not. What I do know is that creating controversy is in the best interest of their careers.

I would agree with that statement, but if you listen to the podcast it doesn't come across that way. It seemed to be something that just slipped out. Once said, the roundtable just glossed over it. Very different than later on when MKC tosses out a comment about the possibility that the Browns trade for Jimmy G. They made a big deal about her making that comment. The whole thing seemed contrived to stir things up. The comment I am referring to didn't have that feel.

Again, take it FWIW.

Well, to be honest, I don't think Aaron Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Tom Brady know who MKC is, so I wouldn't expect any non-former Brown to respond.

you are "presumed innocent" only in the court of law

At work, in the NFL, within your community, on social media, you are canceled or fired based on their opinions.


Let's not forget the Texans refused to play him (when he is in his prime) and still paid him to be on the roster. That's how guilty they think he is.

Agree with your post. I didn't mean to imply that they had knowledge of what Berry was planning. Just that they have more information that we do. I am sure they have some insider information from some players and a few interns but more importantly they have a true feel for the atmosphere in the building. And I feel this gives them an advantage over us when it comes to tryin gto predict what the Browns will do. And she used the term most not all which means to me 3 or 4 of the 5. So clearly nothing definitive.

Maybe it struck me as more significant than it does anyone else because prior to that I felt there was an 80-90% chance that Baker would be our Qb next year. But hearing that comment gave me pause and the feeling that I need to readjust that opinion.

Very tough decision indeed.

I can certainly see the logic behind sticking with Baker for another year. He has had some success though inconsistent. He was injured much of this year. Let's give it another year.

I can also see the reasoning behind moving on. He has been inconsistent. He hasn't lead us to many late game come from behind victories. He doesn't seem to have a great connection to any of our Wr's other than Higgins (who cannot get on the field). His personality seems to rub people the wrong way (seems, purely subjective). One of those people seems to be Stefanski (again purely subjective). Baker doesn't seem happy here. More importantly, his wife doesn't seem happy here (again both purely subjective).

The issue with getting rid of Baker is who replaces him?

Who could be available that would be a clear upgrade?
Rodgers, Wilson, Watson.
I think Rodgers and Wilson are a pipe dream. Watson is viable but even if no charges or suspension, do we really want all that drama?
And what would the cost be to trade for him? Plus, doesn't he have a no trade clause?

Who would be a lateral move talent wise but perhaps a better scheme fit?
Garoppolo - feels like a lateral move

Who are the reclamation projects?
Marriota and Trubisky
Trubisky just spent a year as a backup in KC, perhaps that time with Andy Reid really helped. And we see now that the coaching staff in Chicago.
But do we really want to risk it? Do we think either of these 2 are more likely to thrive next year than Baker?

And this draft seems to be extraordinarily weak at Qb.


Did I miss any options?

How about trading Baker to the Dallas for Dak with possibly some picks or other players involved? We've traded with them before on draft day. Just a little speculating on my part.

I don't think you really missed anything. What I saw last year is that if Baker is healthy, he combined with Stefanski can take us to the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs anything can happen. I don't think you simply scrap that based on an injury plagued season.

Where I do see a disconnect, at least for me, is that when and if our FO and coaching staff agree that Baker can not lead us to where they want to be, who you see or don't see as an upgrade is of little consequence. If that's the way they start seeing Baker, refusing to take a stab at improvement rather than perpetuate continuing in mediocrity doesn't appear to be a logical option in my POV.

I don't think most all of us want to see a compete reboot at QB when we made the playoffs just last year with the QB we have. For me that would show a total lack of patience by this FO.