If you know anything about throwing a baseball or a football; the mechanics of throwing are critical.

I coached baseball and in particular pitching. I studied it. I went to clinics for coaching at Ga. Tech.

I watched tape. I read books by Tom Seaver. I talked about pitching mechanics with people like John Smoltz and others.

I took it very seriously. My son was a very good pitcher.

It has been obvious to me that it has been a problem with Baker. It has to be.

You can try to adjust. Inconsistency is to be expected.

How much has it bothered Baker? I don't think you can attach a percentage.

On some throws it will be a lot. On others maybe not so much.

I am not going to make excuses for bad decisions or missing some throws.

But to think it has had no impact is incorrect.

I will leave at that.

IMO Baker will with Browns next year. We shall see how it goes.

I believe that the mechanics of throwing are critical. Now if we could only explain the footwork issue we've seen so much of or the throwing into double coverage and not seeing the safety.

Van Pelt addressed footwork in the presser, although not to the degree he did with throwing mechanics re: the shoulder harness. He said Mayfield regressed a bit in the GB game, and fell back into bad habits a couple times. He said not practicing for 2 weeks could be a factor because those footwork mechanics need regular work. I know some will say it was excuse-making, but I think its reasonable in the absence of any other reason for Baker throwing off his heels on the airmailed int to Landry and on the int to the left where it looked like his cleats got stuck in the turf before he could get square to the throw.

I did think there was a disconnect between Van Pelt's comment and Stefanski's answers to the same questions.

Over Baker's career in Cleveland there has been "good Baker" and "bad Baker."

He has to become consistent. The date is there.

But from a pure visual perspective, it is important to me that I have seen him play well. So, I know it is there.

He has things to clean up. I am sure he is well aware of it.

My biggest hope is he starts to play great ball. And, continues to play at a high level.

We have two big games. Start Monday. Go out and play well.

I think back to a PC either him or Berry had where they talked about instilling culture. I sometimes wonder if KS's answers are more driven by establishing ruthless accountability vs giving reporters snippets of info. Just a thought of mine that predates the recent harness comment.

Regarding the harness itself, I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that a harness isnt going to help technique of an already technique-challenged person like Mayfield. His improved technique probably isn't dialed in which allows him to fall back to old habits.

As we've said, this off-season is going to be crucial to set up his final audition for a second contract.

I've been saying this for a bit. Baker isn't Josh Allen when we has so much arm strength that an injury like Baker's would impact him as much. But Baker doesn't have a cannon like Allen. He needs all his mechanics to get torque on his throw.

I'm positive this injury is impacting him greatly. I hope he gets a healthy shot at leading this team. I'm afraid he won't, however.

I agree, but playing devil's advocate, what will we be if he does go?

If you mean after this season?

I find that difficult to see because they have a longer rope.

Meaning they don't have to make that decision for next year so why do anything?

Waiting till the end of 2022 gives them more time to plan and maybe have better options.

The only way I could see something happen is a trade with Seattle. But that seems highly unlikely.

Wilson from my understanding would have to agree. Seattle would have to get a lot in return. Meaning two number ones Mayfield and maybe more.

I don't see it.

In the end Berry and company IMO still believe they can win with Baker.

I could wrong but today that is how I see it.

Good post Bone and I agree. We don't have to do anything now and besides, what are our options right now? none that make any sense. Our best move right now is sticking with Baker for another year. Let him get healthy and see if there is improvement. AB and the FO has the next 15 months until the 2023 draft to decide depending on what they see with Baker. Hopefully Baker will play better and well enough to make us serious contenders. Lord knows I'm pulling for him. It's a wait and see approach. We have time at this point and more and better options may surface in this time frame if things don't work out. JMO

Question..?..

Is Baker most likely looking at surgery after the season to correct his shoulder injury?....anyone know?

According to Jason LaCanfora he is.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...ess-undergo-labrum-surgery-in-offseason/

We all would like answers "now."

But sometimes patience works out. I am a Braves fan as well as the Guardians. Going into this season the Braves third baseman Austin Riley was in a make or break year. He was 24 years old and it looked like he would be a 30 home run guy that would probably hit 250 with a lot of strikeouts. That was how he was trending. There was talk of trading him. He came up with the Braves as a top prospect. It looked like he would be ok but not great.

This season he hit 303 avg, 33 home runs, with 107 rbi's. Plus he played third at a gold glove pace. He played a huge part in the Braves winning the World Series.

Sometimes the trade you don't make pays off huge.

If all I had ever seen from Baker was average . I would feel differently. But the "good Baker" was good. And that gives me hope. Because it shows that the ability is there. It is not a fluke. You don't play the way he did in the second half of last season and forget how.

Exactly. It's not like he never played well. There was a stretch where he was very good. The only facet of Bakers game that I was starting to agree with his critics on was Bakers inability to lead us down the field in crunch time. He still may get better at this but right now I can understand his detractors.

We've seen the good and we've seen the bad. What I'm hoping we'll begin to see is the good with some consistency. Entering next season healthy should give us a clear picture of which Baker we will get. I'm certainly hoping for the best.

Me also. I want to see Baker succeed here in the worst way.

With regard to the footwork, the injury definitely impacted it. He went back to his flawed, but previously successful comfort zone, knowing he had to compensate for the shoulder.

I said it before, and I'll say it again. I am sure that his left foot/right knee injuries have his footwork completely screwed up. He was dropping back, and getting up on his toes. I haven't paid super close attention, but it seems like he is not doing that every time I look.

I think that these injuries, along with the shoulder, are just throwing his whole body off kilter.

I am with you and I think most of us are as well.

But I have to agree that how you play at crunch time matters a lot.

How do you play when the game is there to be won? For some games it could have been drops or bad plays called.

But at some point you have to deliver at that time. He has done it on occasion. It is time to make it the rule and not the exception.

Looking at the recovery and rehab time needed for a surgery dealing with a torn labrum, it varies greatly depending upon the seriousness of the injury. Four to six months seems to be an average time frame for recovery and rehab.

It could take until the end of June 2022 before Mayfield is ready to return. If I'm the Browns and looking to be prepared for a worse case scenario, the Browns would need to decide if Keenham is capable filling the team's needs in the event that Mayfield's recovery from surgery requires more time.

I would prefer he succeeds in the best way. But as long as he succeeds it ok with me

it is his non-throwing shoulder. he should be in 100% recovered no more than 4 months after surgery.

JMHO, Baker is an overachieving little guy. So was Manziel, who got hurt running, Baker got hurt tackling and getting pounded on. Size matters, couple inches taller you see the safety, bigger you don't get hurt as easily. Question for all Browns fans, would you rather have Baker or Bills Allen....my choice is Allen- bigger, stronger, has better arm. I don't want old Wilson, he's small and will get hurt eventually. I want our draft experts to find a bigger QB who is smart enough not to tackle and execute a run first offense. Go Browns!!!!

Ham...just 4 months...

I'd rather have Allen. I also agree with you about Wilson. Wilson is still good but past his prime and because of his size he will only get more fragile with age. Baker is what we have for now. We can hope he heals up well and improves.

as long as he did not tear the rotator cuff tendons. 6 months, at least, if the rotators are torn and have to be repaired (if possible).

By all accounts, it appears it was just the labrum. Fortunately, it is his non-throwing shoulder. If it were his throwing shoulder, career would be in jeopardy.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence… but we've been over a ton of fences in the last twenty years and a truly green pasture is very rare. So those rooting against Baker or wanting him gone should damn well watch what they wish for, or we will end up back on the endless hunt.

Who is it that's "rooting against Baker"?

Nobody is just saying it, obviously, but scroll through the Mayfield threads. If you can't see it, I can't help you.

Certainly there are a few posters who have decided Baker is a bum and would happily move on and not have Baker. I think some of those posters come across as gleeful when posting when he plays badly. It feels very much like they wound rather be right than have Baker play well. I'm sure They wo9uld all rush to tell you otherwise, but I'm sure I'm not alone in interpreting their posts that way.

Reading something as "gleeful" is a matter of your interpretation of the printed word. I can't speak for others but it pains me to see the performance we've witnessed on the field from Baker. It's why almost every poster on this board fully supports Baker be the starter again next year in hopes that his injury explains what we've all been a witness to. Sometimes people see what they want to see and believe what they want to believe. That doesn't make it so.

Communication is a two way process. It matters what the receiver interprets and "hears" as much as what the speaker (typer) thinks his intention/message was. Maybe if I was the only person with that take I explained, your point would be irrefutable. As it is I think there are probably a few posters that get the same message from some of the overtly negative posters. Not only is it about what's said, it's the volume and quantity of what's said and it's also about what's not said when Baker has played well. Jmo

I don't know anybody rooting AGAINST Baker. Some of us recognize his flaws and deficiencies as well as his talent and production. The problem is, when you add it all up, he's a significant upgrade over the trash we've had for 20+ years (not saying much) but he's also not good enough to take us where we ultimately want to go unless we have a magical year with a light schedule, no injuries, and surround him with all-pro players and coaches at every position (a combination that basically never happens).

I want him back next year. Let him heal. Hope he improves. He's the best of a lot of bad options. But go into the season knowing full well he's likely to be better than this year (healthy) but still not at the level we ultimately want/need.

To that end are we "back on the endless hunt" or are we still in the middle of it - present tense?

I believe it's the latter.

That's not true, just like it's not true that there's a legion of people pulling out every excuse because Baker is playing well and blameless for our current record.

Nobody is saying that Baker isn't playing poorly, just as it's NOT true that if you plug in another QB we're guaranteed SB-bound. The issue is much more complicated.

It's really not. The Browns were 3-6 in games decided by 6 points or less. Baker was 0-5 in game winning drive opportunities. Would it be nice if he had a Jamar Chase he can hail marys too like Burrow? Yeah, for sure it would. But he is not and has never been clutch. In four years, he's never been clutch. The NFL is about the QB. If you have good ones that win games, you've got a shot. If you don't, you don't. We don't have one of those guys. It's really that simple.

Everyone can be better. Stefanski, Woods, scheme, talent, etc. But if Baker were a better QB, the Browns would be preparing for the playoffs. It's that simple.

You can literally swap out Baker for "the defense" in your last post and it would make sense and be completely true.

A lot went wrong this year. Hanging it on one name shows bias/agenda and nothing more.

It doesn't show either. I keep asking this question - do people on this board even watch other games or understand at all how wins and losses are determined in the NFL?

Your QB is bottom 10 or maybe 5 in every meaningful statistic there is.

Yes, the coaching could have been better. Yes, the talent could be better. Yes, injuries factored in. But better QB play and we are in the playoffs. It's that simple.

For all of you diehard Baker supporters, do you know that not one single ex-player that has a microphone thinks he's good. Does that count at all?

Rish, I'm not the biggest Baker fan, trust me ! Columbus and I sit together and I many times yell Baker over rated !.. Emotions in play of course..

Maybe this year it might not be the best time to judge .. I can't throw a football that well or far, I'm no QB either. But seriously having a harness around the injured shoulder can't be a good thing at all.

No excuses, but a little understanding and sympathy. There were hurt Defensive players who didn't play well with injuries and lots sat out.. Didn't hear much disgust toward them as in Baker.

This team can finish 9-8 under a really hurt QB.. It shows some heart toughness and integrity..

Would the over paid Keenum done any better ? if so why wasn't he playing ?

The QB situation really frustrated me as most of us.

I agree 100% that better QB play and we would have been in the playoffs - or most definitely playing for the Div Title next week, because bad QB play cost us a minimum of 1 game.

Does it count that no ex-player thinks he's good? Not really. Most definitely not to me. He's not been good this year since week 3. So "they" are being accurate.

The question that has any meaning at all is - can he be good. And you don't think he can and many agree with you. I think he can be more than 'good enough' and think he might be very good ... and we'll probably get to see next year. Hope he gets and stays healthy and has a 100% recovery.

He might not be here next year. Making it's way through twitter earlier today was that Baker's camp can be as vocal as OBJ's and he would welcome a change of scenery.

I know you don't want to believe it. It is speculation. But this smoke exists and the fire is real. Baker started planting these stories with MKC several weeks ago. Now that the Browns are eliminated from the playoffs expect those stories to intensify. Baker will be here next year if Berry and Stefanski want him here, and that is the only way he will be here. Stay tuned. We'll know over the next few months.

And no, I won't be happy if Baker is gone next year. There will be a part of me that is very sad that it didn't work out. My commentary on his play does not mean I want him to fail. It's just what I see, feel, and observe of his play.

The Browns are once again a clown show with question marks at QB.

What a disaster.

I concur. I suspect Cousins might be the Browns QB next year if Mayfield isn't in Cleveland (I'm assuming Minnesota's going to cut him since he refused to restructure his $35 million guaranteed). Still though, it's Andrew Berry's job to do his due dilligence on any potential QB upgrade from Mayfield. That's his job after all, is it not?

Derek Carr would be another name to keep an eye on should Berry be looking to make a move.

If the Raiders are looking to rebuild, they'd have $0 in dead cap space by moving on from Carr.

Huge decisions for Berry this offseason. The window is open now and could close fast.

Browns miss the playoffs next year and I begin to worry if Haslam can resist meddling and making changes.

Pittsburgh might also be kicking the tires on Carr if he's available as well - Carr is solid as a QB. And with the current team that the Browns have, aside for a need for a #1 WR and some DT/linebacker depth, solid might be good enough to get you in contention for the division and a playoff berth (injuries not withstanding). He would also cost less than say a Russell Wilson would as well.

.

Rishuz, this isn’t directed at you. Just sharing my thoughts on this tidbit.

Who would want him? What kind of contract does he think he’d get if he requested a trade now? I think there are guys like Jimmy Garrapolo and Derrick Carr who could perform better than Baker.

-Look at much better Odell has looked in LA.

- We won at least 4 games this year despite Bakers poor play. - Chicago, Minny, Detroit, Baltimore 2, Houston.

- We lost 5 games this year on account of Baker’s poor play. NE, GB, Pitt, Baltimore 1, Arizona.

- Baker has proven that he can’t play in the clutch.

- He’s looked good in 3 games: KC, LA, Cincy.

- He’s surrounded by a good oline, solid running game, solid tight ends, and a former pro bowl wr.

I want it to work out for him here so that we’re not qb-less again, but I have no reason to believe that he’s an above-average qb. He certainly isn’t worth a big contract at this point.

I agree. I think Baker's camp is going to be disappointed.

However, don't sleep on NO. I think Payton liked Mayfield coming out and has the ego to believe he could get the most out of him. Gets Baker closer to Texas too.

I think Houston could be a possibility as well.

NO and HOU could certainly be possibilities in a trade scenario.

I'd add Carolina and WFT as other possibilities. Both could choose to get their QB via the draft, however.

Right now, I would rather have Allen... or I would have rather waited and tanked for Burrows... I would even give up Myles Garrett (as much as I like him) to have taken Patrick Mahomes.... in 2005 I would have rather taken Aaron Rodgers at 3 than Braylon Edwards... Back in 1995 I wish the City of Cleveland would have raised $20 million to give to Belichick to not go to Baltimore or accept another job until we had our team back and he could have coached here...

But none of those things happened so I guess I don't understand the point of this game.

We have Baker, we have limited options to move on from Baker... we have a coach, staff, and GM who have to make a decision on what Baker can be if he gets the surgery and comes back healthy. and if they decide he's not the future here, then they have to figure out which one of the limited options they would like to pursue... we have a FO that has to determine how much of our offensive woes are Baker and how much are Stefanski/Van Pelt.. we still have a lot of talent, we have some gaps.. we will see which direction we decide to go.

I seriously doubt that Sean Payton would let go of tayson hill for baker, especially due to the fact that they still have a shot at a wildcard birth.

Watson or Wilson.

I mean damn. I dunno how many gm’s right now would take even a healthy baker over hill, hurts, and even fields.

Baker is playing with one arm.

He will make yall eat crow next season.

He should play better next year, yes. The question I have is this - if Pittsburgh makes a move and gets a Wilson, or a Watson, or a Rodgers etc, wouldn't that potentially force the Browns hand with regards to the QB position? That's the worst possible thing that could potentially happen IMO.

I am not so much sticking up for Baker, but the worst-case scenario would be letting Baker go and him go on to be one of the best QB's in the league. That would cement us as Loserville with loser fans.

You can apply the blame to Mayfield all you want but that will not fix the problem the Browns face. Six of the Browns current 8 losses have been by 6 or less points. In every one of those games the Browns had the opportunity to win it on a final drive or close it out for the win. As a team, they failed in each and every instance.

Now the easy way out is to make the QB the fall guy. People are quick to point out Baker's flaws and he deserves some of the blame but if you really watched those six games there were other issues much greater IMHO that must be
addressed or it won't matter who's standing under center for the Cleveland Browns.

As a QB, you don't have to be lights out every damn game. The important factor is stay competitive and give yourself a shot at winning. Yesterday - PHI got an interception with 24 seconds left to secure a win over WAS, the LAR (Stafford) produced a 3:33 drive and scored with 1:01 left to beat BAL, Brady led TBB on a 93 yd drive in 1:57 to score and defeat the Jets with 21 seconds left on the clock, Carr led the LVR on a 60 yd 11 play drive in the final 1:56 for a 33 yd FG to beat the Colts as time expired, Mahomes and KCC put together a 12 play 5:43 drive for a FG to tie the game with 6:01 left only to have Burrows and CIN produce a 20 play drive for a game winning FG of 20 yds to win on the game's final play, and finally - after the Cowboys scored to pull themselves within 3 of ARI - Murray led ARI on a 11 play 52 yd drive to close out the game with Dallas never seeing the ball again.

Almost in every instance, the before mentioned are still in the playoff hunt and except for PHI have the ability on any given Sunday to score quickly or close out games where you never see the ball again. Add in Rodgers, Prescott, Herbert and normally a Wilson and you have about 10 QB's that you absolutely don't want to have the ball with 2-3 minutes left in a close game.

Every one of these guys (except for Murray and Wilson who missed games due to injury) have over 4,000 yds passing this year. In fact, of the top 10 passers, every single one of them are either in the playoffs or still in the hunt with 1 week to go. Baker on the other hand has thrown for only 2,825 yds rated 25th and 24th in attempts with 380. Of the top 10 rushers in the league, 6 won't be in the playoffs. 7 of the top 10 passers for yardage are on pace to win their division - that's 7 of the 8 division winners. 10 of the 10 are still in the playoff hunt. Mayfield is 133 attempts and counting less than the lowest amount of attempts by a top 10 passer.

Stefanski and the Browns scheme is all wrong for today's NFL. Now you might like the fact that Chubb and Hunt are the faces of the franchise with Stefanski's run first offense but Cincy won the division with a second year QB passing for almost 2,000 more yards than Mayfield and "YES" they also have a 1,000 yard rusher. For those nay sayers that think we can court a Rodgers, Wilson, Watson or Carr to Cleveland you better think again because no QB is coming anywhere near Cleveland to throw 150 less passes a season. No receiver worth his salt would ever consider coming to Cleveland after they've watched Hooper, OBJ, and Landry get their targets cut in half. The Browns are not an offensive minded team and to tell you the truth, I don't believe they even practice 2-minute drills or plays to score quick. They are way to disorganized when they get in those situations to make me feel otherwise. Thats a coaching problem and I'm confident that it will not change whether Baker's healthy or not. Continually playing a 3-TE offense does not build confidence in your QB either. Baker's last year in Cleveland will be 2022 unless it does change. The offense is not set up to make Baker successful. The offense is set to run the ball. Until that mindset changes, Cleveland will have a below average QB as long as Stefanski is calling the shots.

Keep in mind that Chubb and Hunt missed multiple games this year. Now some will say that is the reason for the poor season. I say it shines a bigger light on the issue because any normal thinking person would think that the passing attempts would go up during that injury period. Baker hasn't thrown for over 250 yds since week 5. Baker only has 2 games the entire season where he's thrown for over 250 yds, week 1 and 5. To take this a little further, in 2019 Baker had 534 pass attempts. Enter Stefanski in 2020 and Baker's attempts dropped to 486, a reduction of 48 pass attempts. In 2021, it's glaring as currently Bakers has 380 attempts which as on now is 154 less attempts than 2019. in yardage, Baker is 700 plus yards behind last year and over a 1,000 less than 2019. Call it what you want, Stefanski has turned Baker from a gun slinger into a game manager and his run first at all costs is going to set the franchise back a decade not to mention a new and disheartening search for another franchise QB.

Stay tuned.......

When a QB does not make his team in any way or form a better team, its time to move on.

I get a feeling nobody on the team supports or likes Baker. He requires too much maintenance for the player he is. We can get same or better play with much less drama from other QB's.

Time to move on, and like in most similar situations, the sooner the better.

I am convinced (have been for a good while) that we need a ball control, running QB.

That would be the perfect complement to the Stefanski offense. I'd love if we could get Tyler Huntley, but the Ravens can still control where he might go.

You make some good points, but it seems like you are dismissing a lot of losses in which Baker played poorly by saying other things went wrong and we could have won in spite of him. That is not what we are looking for.
He was badly hurt and he has poor receivers. That’s fair. But he also made terrible decisions. We now have a potentially great defense, but on offense (which a year ago was our strength), we are behind where we were a year ago on OL, at RB, at WR, at TE and most of all, at QB. We can like Baker and still recognize that this is a problem.

After reading your long post basically what you're saying is the NFL is a passing league and the Browns need to open up the offense and pass more next season. OBJ seems to be fitting in nicely in L. A., maybe the Browns should've listened to him instead of letting him go. I agree with you.

I watched some of Baker's Oklahoma highlights. He looked like a different QB back then. I can see why he was the #1 overall pick and why the Browns took him. I believe when healthy, he can be the QB he was at Oklahoma. If Berry gets Baker a true #1 playmaking WR, be it the draft or FA, then you will see a much-improved Baker.

Swapping QB's doesn't fix the issue we have no one to throw the ball to....

To this, better QB play and we make the playoffs. Better QB play the Steelers make the playoffs. Better QB play the Bills are the #1 seed. Better QB play the Ravens easily win the division. Better QB play and antonio brown doesn't retire mid-game. It goes on and on.

Problem with running QBs...they run until they can't run..then they are forced to rely on their ability to pass.

I will say this...Baker's passing game was better last season when he was unpredictable and willing to abandon the "pocket" and roll out looking for a receiver...and if he could not find a receiver he simply ran, taking what the defense gave him.

From a defensive perspective, a QB who is unpredictable and capable of burning a defense with the pass and can also move the chains with a run...it is tough to defend...the Browns already had "that guy"...but someone didn't like "that guy" and made him change his game.

I imagine Sean Payton wouldn't hesitate for a second to give up Hill for Baker. Payton did chose Winston over Hill.

I don't think for a second that's what we want. At least not the running part. Hard pass on Huntley.

Not discounting Baker's decision making - what I am saying is you cannot expect your QB to perform like a 4,000 yd plus passer if he isn't getting the experience of passing for 4,000 plus yards. I too see the other issues like the obvious swing and miss at LT and weak WR's at best but if you are not focused on the passing game and your weekly game plan is focused on a "run first" mentality there is no way in hell you can evaluate your QB as a franchise player or not. It takes a whole lot more work, communication, and game experience to develop a decent 2-minute offense than the last 15-30 minutes of practice. The Browns can't have a #1 WR if you're only throwing too him 3-5 times a game. You will never develop the same thought process or read defenses the same. Let's not kid ourselves here, the top WR's are seeing the same thing the QB's are seeing. When that isn't happening you see plays like the Browns put out weekly. WR is the second hardest position to play because to be really good you need to read defenses just like your QB. The majority of the routes are run as planned but making adjustments become critical depending on what the defense is doing. Rodgers has said the best player he's ever played with is Adams because he's studied the game and sees what Rodgers sees and adjusts accordingly. That doesn't happen if you're not practicing it or applying it during game time conditions. It also will never happen throwing 150 less passes than the other top QB's. The Browns will never be a consistent contender having a QB in the bottom quarter of the league in attempts and yardage no matter how many yards they run for each week. I don't know if Baker is the answer or not but I do know that having your QB currently throwing 300 less attempts than a Tom Brady or Mahomes is "NOT" an attempt to find out if you have a franchise QB. IMHO, Stefanski has stopped Baker's growth the last 2-years and we have no idea what we have at QB and that's not Baker's fault.

There are a few on this board that seem to want to promote getting Rogers or someone like that is a great Idea.

I refuse to judge Baker when he's injured.. makes no sense.

j/c

I've been wrong lots and lots of times in my life - no shame there. Maybe I will be wrong again regards Baker. That said -

I think judging him on this year with his injuries is the epitome of insanity. Counting his winning drives, interceptions, missed open receivers - pretty meaningless. Pointing to a great half followed by a mediocre half and suggesting the injury is fine - pretty meaningless. jmo.

Whether posters have watched his other struggles and decided to put the nail in the coffin based the way he has played during his short career? He's had issues reading the D, processing speed and interceptions. So maybe? Add to that maybe some personal dislike for his character AND these issues and maybe it's easier to think you've seen enough.

Personally I don't think we've seen enough. Where some might call it excuses - things like 4 HC in 3 years, 4 OC in 3 years, the Kitchens disaster, the mechanics changes last year ... they are all real factors and influences. When Baker has played at his worst - he's been plenty bad, but there have been huge negative influences to look at and possibly add some nuance and explanation. When he's played well he's been the polar opposite. His rookie year setting NFL records. Last year taking the team to the playoffs and having such a high PFF grade for the final 9 games. The first 2 games this year with an 81% completion %.... before getting injured.

I'll continue to believe Baker has the talent and ability to lead this team. When healthy. Burrows won yesterday - the Bengals are in the playoffs, and Burrows played very well. Chase Young might be the best WR in the NFL. He helped a lot. The first pitch and catch TD was 90% Chase. Judging Baker against Allen, Lamar, Burrows, Herbert? I don't really see the point - Lamar and Allen in my mind both definitely would have both been damaged and possibly ruined coming to the 1-31 Browns coached by Hue. Both have gone to franchises that have brought them on and maxed their ability and talent brilliantly in a way I don't believe the Browns could have come close to. And bottom line - we are where we are. I'm absolutely more than happy to ride with Baker. Draft or acquire an Alpha WR. Lose Keenum. Concentrate on finishing pieces to the D and add a little depth to the OL. And stay healthy.

Final thought - for those suggesting we cut bait with Baker because (injured) a better QB would have won at least one more game and got us to week 18 with a chance to play Bengals for the division title ..... what do we do with Joe Wodds and Stefanski? Regardless of how you think they are overall - both have cost the Browns a minimum of 1 game with poor coaching. You want to cut bait on them too? We've certainly seen the same pattern of play calling and coaching for two years. I'm not - I'd like to keep them as well. But if the losing a game counts so heavily against Baker - then the same must apply to really poor coaching too - no?

The Browns did listen to him. He wanted out. He's fitting in nicely in LA because #1 Cooper Kupp is getting most of the attention, and he didn't have that luxury here.

and he's fitting in because he's in a place he has chosen. He never wanted to be here. Period.

You have once-again done a terrific job of getting to the heart of where the problem STARTS with the offense. The reality of your comments are very, very concerning to me. This issue permeates through not-only the few talented pass-game-talents we have NOW...but likely glare even larger with free agents who we may court to come here...including QBs for those wanting to move on from Baker. Our issues run much deeper than the QB the WRs (actually lack of WRs) and our mediocre TEs.

AB's unwillingness - or inability - to get some pass-catching help at the trade deadline is equally concerning.

Of course it's concerning, because the quality of receiver the Browns will attract (outside of the draft) is most likely to be a middle of the road lower tier receiver. No #1 or upper tier receiver is going to consider coming to Cleveland knowing that somewhere between 1,300 to 1,700 yards of receiving yardage is off the table before you step on the field and that your main offensive function will to be making downfield blocks for the running game. As stated in another post here, Landry is a good candidate to be let go this off season leaving the Browns with no #1 and no #2 WR on the roster. Unlike Cincy where they had Higgins and Boyd already in place before drafting Chase, the Browns will not have that luxury and you're throwing a rookie out there during your franchise QB's final contract year with no clear #1 or #2 WR. Add in the total ignorance of the TE and most surely the departure of Njoku combined with the obvious LT woes and the Browns are in serious trouble.

Keep in mind that this doesn't even begin to address the needs on defense. Offensively, the only chance the Browns have to salvage this unit is to either a) fire Stefanski which I doubt happens or b) fire Van Pelt and hire a new experienced pass first offensive coordinator to run the offense that has free rein to call the game as he sees fit with no input from Stefanski. I say fire Van Pelt because he's done nothing except double down on Stefanski's scheme when he was out the couple of times with COVID. If the Browns bring in the right coordinator and publicly state the offense runs through the coordinator, the Browns might be able to lure some quality talent. If they don't do this and I mean almost immediately after the final game against Cincy, it's going to be a long and very ugly off season. Now I'm pretty sure Stefanski won't stand for this and walk but the decision process boils down to this - keep Stefanski and never know if Baker is a franchise QB and probably playing his last year in Cleveland creating a total rebuild or find out if Mayfield is the guy by adjusting the scheme. Something has to give and one way or another - at the end of 2022 the Browns will be looking for a new head coach or QB - AGAIN!

Maybe it won't be the HC,the OC or the scheme that keeps top flight players away.Maybe it's the QB.

Well OBJ didn't want to be in Cleveland period - so while it's tempting to use him, that's probably unfair. We can use Stefan Diggs as a very clear example of a top tier WR who was desperate to get away from a KS offense and thrived in Buffalo ... I think it's abundantly clear that the 'top' WR in the Browns is not going to set flashy yardage or TD numbers regardless of who is QB. It's more than fair to suggest a #1 WR free agent is not going to want to be a Brown unless they are very much on the end of their career.

I think it's safe to speculate that nobody is going to want to come here.But,money always talks the loudest.

Plenty of free agents wanted to come here after Baker led us to the playoffs and a playoff WIN just last season. Defensive players like to play on a team that scores points...and we were that kind of team the last half of last year. See Clowney, Takk, T Hill, JJ3, M Jackson (DT), McDowell (DT), A Walker.

Offensively we picked up...well...no one. The stat lovers will say that the WRs and TEs are the same as last year. Watching the game one will see that they clearly are not. Landry got a year older and has been dinged...Hooper somehow got even slower...Njoku stayed his unreliable self...Higgins went back into the dog house...Schwartz missed games...Njoku missed games...Bryant missed games. JoJo made the 53 over Higgins for a week and he's now gone to the PS....J Bradley was on the PS...on the 53...cut..and back on the 53. Wills regressed and got hurt and COVID...Conklin was out more than he was in. Ski doubled down on his stubbornness after getting the big head from COTY.

There is virtually nothing from last year that carried over to this year other than stud RBs, a terrific interior OL and unreliable kickers.

j/c...



https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...r-mayfield-cleveland-browns-headed-split

I agree about changing the game. I also agree about running until they can't.

The deal is all of these younger QB's have been running since middle school football. A Lamar Jackson or Josh Allen taking off and running isn't the same as Peyton Manning or Dan Marino running.

Like I said, they have been running since they were 14 years old, so they know how to take hits, when to slide, how to slide, and the rules, even when they start to run, favor them. I don't worry about them running as much as if Bernie took off running. It is just a part of today's game and coaches who don't really have that as a part of the game are playing a weapon short IMO.

I think Stefanski needs to open it up a lot more with the formations. We run a lot of bunch formations. That works for the backs, but it doesn't do anything for the passing game.

Just to support that about WRs possibly avoiding Stefanski, check out Diggs' and Thielen's stats in 2018 vs 2019 when KS took over as OC in Minn. In 2018 Thielen and Diggs had 113 and 102 receptions, respectively. The next year with DeFillippi gone and KS in, Diggs had 63 receptions and Thielen had 30 (in 10 games). In the same time period, Dalvin Cook's rush attempts nearly doubled (133 in 2018 and 250 in 2019). Diggs became disenchanted and wanted out, not unlike Beckham did here.

Good points, Dave.

First let me say I'm not trying to say which of us are right or wrong here. I do think we have very differing perspectives however. I think often times people over generalize things. In other cases I think people try to oversimplify things. But to give you the perspective of where I'm coming from, allow me to explain.

As many have pointed out Baker has been hurt almost the entire season. That does explain a lot. But far from everything. It doesn't really explain how he has thrown into double coverage. Or how he at times hasn't been able to read the safeties. I don't think it explains the regression of his footwork. I've watched people who try to say the WR's aren't open when PFF who breaks games down shows we rank high in having the most WR's open on pass plays.

Let's look at some of the results after the injury.

In week 5 we put up 42 points against the Chargers. Baker was 23 of 32 passing with 2td's and no int's.

In week 9 we put up 41 points against the Bengals. Baker was 14 of 21 2td's and 0int's.

Even in week 14 against Baltimore Baker was 22-32 with 2td's and one int.

Yet just two weeks later we saw this

Against the Packers we saw Baker go 21 -32 2td's and 4 int's.

And even in that game it was almost the tale of two Bakers. In the first half he threw 3int's. It's as if he couldn't recognize the coverage at all. It looked as though he was just totally lost out there. Then in the second half he did none of that. While it wasn't a stellar half by any means and I certainly contribute the injury in part to at lesst part of that, he wasn't making those same mental mistakes he was in the first half. In fact the defense shut the Packers to just a single FG and Baker contributed to the comeback. Even that last int. was a pass that was right on the money. The defender knew it and I certainly don't blame Baker because the WR was mugged on a no call. Four quarters of play like the "second half Baker" delivered would have made that a different game.

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying the harness isn't impacting his accuracy. It clearly is.

So we've actually seen "good Baker" after the injury. We've seen he can play well enough we should win games and poorly enough that he is certainly having an impact on us losing games. While I can't speak for anyone else, that's the thing that has me wondering. It's the thing that keeps nagging at me.

What I also understand is about pain. I don't like sharing a lot of personal information, but to sum it up I live with varying levels of pain at all times. And pain doesn't impact everyone the same way. It's something that some people learn to deal with over time where they can still process things and something that persistently impacts the the thinking process of others. People have a different pain tolerance which can impact that greatly.

Hopefully that may help you understand why I have misgivings on just how much his injury impacts "every facet" of his game. Because that is seemingly what is happening here. From his decision making to his footwork. As PFF has pointed out, no matter what anyone thinks of our WR's, they are getting open. It just seems as though he isn't finding them a lot of the time.

Now you may have a different take. In fact I'm pretty sure you do. But I'm giving you my perspective. I'm giving you the reasoning for it.

But let me tell you also what conclusion that has led me to. I want to find out. I want to find out if this injury is the cause of most of the problems and I actually have a hard time believing that it is. But I also keep in ind that pain impacts people differently. I understand that it can impact peoples thought process.

We have Baker under contract for another season. Far too often I've watched fans who base their opinions on nothing but raw emotions. They refuse to take other contributing factors in mind. I'm not ready to do that. I want to see a healthy Baker come back in 2022 in order to answer the questions.

I just want you to understand that I'm not basing Baker's performance on W's and L's. I don't believe a rational person can do that. You have to base your opinions of a QB on the basis of what a QB does. There are certainly games, most of which were earlier in the year, that the O produced enough to win some games we lost. But there are far more cases where the D played well enough to win where the O didn't produce enough to win.

What I do know in terms of QB sacks is that we have 2 QB's in our own division that have been sacked more than Baker. One of them being Burrows. But I know that doesn't tell the whole story. I would be interested to know which QB's have taken the most pressures and where Baker ranks in taking pressures. While I do understand our OL has suffered injuries and have not been the best OL by far, I'm not sure how much that has impacted the amount of times opposing D's have pressured him as a passer in comparison to other QB's. That would certainly help put some focus on one of the questions I have. Like i said at the beginning, sometimes people generalize things and sometimes I think they oversimplify things.

And one last topic I wanted to address. That is Stefanski. I feel very much the same way about him. People seem to quickly forget that he's the exact same HC that worked with Baker to win 11 games last season. No less than Baker was the QB that helped lead us to 11 wins last season by working with Stefanski. And here's what I find most confusing about what we are seeing on the board. And before this gets confused, no, I'm not saying it's you that are making these comments.

What I see a lot are things like "Stefanski wants his own QB". So that would mean that a HC who has a QB that helped lead this steam to the playoffs last year doesn't want that QB? I don't see any logic in that.

And what I see them basing that on is pretty much this. "He trying to change Baker's game and who Baker is."

So in order to buy into all of that one would have to believe that a HC shouldn't change up the game based on a QB some of those very same people claim is so injured that it greatly impacts his accuracy? Why wouldn't a HC want to limit his starting QB who is wearing a harness on his shoulder? I understand when the game is going in the direction of us seeing "good Baker", like we did in the second half of the Packers game why you would lean more towards passing the ball because your QB is doing better. But in the games where he's obviously off, why would you open up the game to your injured QB?

I don't believe Stefanski is trying to reinvent Baker at all. The success we had last season makes that idea seem foolish to me. I think he has simply limited Baker by taking the injury into account.

Having both of them back next year will help answer that question too.

What you said about the injury might make some sense ... but yes we disagree. The whole issue with Baker playing through the injury wasn't that he just couldn't do some stuff or was always off target, it is the fact that it made him wildly inconsistent. And while the medication and a week of no hits might of leant itself to early success in some games, getting nailed a couple times undone all of that in an instant. I'll stick with the injury causing a massive issue for Baker's level of play. How else do you attribute two injury free games at 81% coompleition? 9 games last year as the 5th best QB in the NFL according to PFF?

I'm not going to argue or debate something so subjective. We disagree. It's not a problem.

I've said before - many seem to want to judge Baker at his best. He's been plenty good at his best. Others want to judge him at his worst, and he's been plenty bad. There's a wealthy of "in between".

There's a lot of things you touch on... we'll wait and see. I agree KS isn't trying to re-invent Baker. I think the injury limited the play book for Baker more than anything this year. I think the deep shots mostly come off play action and a roll out - which might get Baker killed with the injury he's had. And I think injury across the whole team impacted us and play calling more than we want to acknowledge at the moment. A good example is DPJ - he seemed to regress this year after so much promise. I actually think he's still got the ability to be a good #2.

Last point in general - I've seen MKC "report" on some Baker/Browns conflict and some hint that Baker doesn't want to be here. Based on - nothing substantial. I've seen the dude Rish post another media guy refer to the MKC story - without adding any substance. Now we have Jake Trotter with an article that seems built on .... Nothing. I'll believe that story when there's something to it. Currently it seems like media contrived controversy. jmo

I believe Totter came over from Oklahoma a year after Baker's rookie season. They were at Oklahoma together. Hard to believe there's not a line of communication there. The best way I've seen it summarized is Baker isn't pushing for a trade but is open to a change of scenery should that materialize itself. Give or take various degrees of nuance and that could lead to Baker wanting out depending on KS and the FO.

As for the 82% completion rate through 2 games, who cares. He threw a game sealing interception on his final drive. It's hard to be impressed with 82% completion rate when he played his worst when it mattered most.

No one on this team plays their best when it matters most, including Garrett who again finishes another season on a weak note.

This is correct. ESPN re-assigned Trotter to the Browns beat because of Baker Mayfield. Now, I don't know if it means that Baker shares info with him, but his journalistic career has followed Baker's career so far, that's for sure.

Dalvin Cook's stats doubled from 2018 to 2019 because he was coming back from an ACL Tear that happened in during the 2017 season and was being eased back in, he even missed a few games.

Much like yourself I don't put faith in an unsubstantiated rumor mill.

That makes sense, but still, as a team the Vikings had 218 rush attempts in 2018 and 471 in 2019. Meanwhile TE and RB receptions increased in 2019 under Stefanski. Slight increase over 2018 at TE (83 / 74) and a larger increase in receptions at RB, 2018 - 58 rec, 2019 - 98 rec. It just looks to me like Stefanski favors a more risk-averse approach than John DeFillippo did, and my presumption is Diggs didn't like it.

It was actually Mike Zimmer who favored the more balanced run/pass offensive approach. Stefanski was responsible for implementing it - based on Shanahan/Kubiak offensive strategies.

Here, Here,.....Baker is the epitome of the modern athlete, he's making his money while he can....his commercials have been better than his play. He's on a run first team, JMHO, play action should have made his passing percentages much more successful than he's done. Some say stats are for losers, others state stats don't lie....he's been VERY unsuccessful with game on the line. Draft a bigger, quick minded, accurate passer who will succeed with a run first offense......reality stinks, we have the third best QB in division....maybe 4th best if Steelers beat us tonight....GO Browns!!!

Well, apparently he liked it enough to adopt it as his own approach.

Oh, is that all we have to do? Wonder why nobody thought of that 20 years ago.

@BernieKosarQB
on Baker: "It's almost impossible to throw accurately down the field with that harness, that brace."

What about turning down wide open receivers for covered receivers?

Woah

I'm going to need a link to a video of this. Also, it's insane.

It's quoted by a sports writer...

And what. Context matters.

That came from the Peyton and Eli video show. I guess it was pretty direct.

I have the show recorded. I'll give it a watch tomorrow.

So what are our options?

Obviously drafting a QB (yuck).

Trade for a veteran. Watson is problematic (and has a no trade clause). Wilson is unrealistic (and has a no trade clause). It's hard to see the Raiders moving on from Carr at this point. If the Dolphins trade for Watson maybe Tua? Cousins is a pretty obvious solution if the Vikings want to move on. I'd give Minshew a look.

Free agents. Mariota is the best of the bunch. Trubisky is pretty, pretty bad. Jameis? Bridgewater?

J/c

Here is my take...

Baker won't play the last game this year
Every other qb in the nfl just saw what the coaches did to baker when he has 5-6 significant injuries and is still out trying to win meaningless games (Rodgers comment about helping your qb)

we will need baker to do better next year
We need better playcalling

Trade Baker for Tua or Jimmy G... and get a developmental QB

Baker will, most likely, be traded. I don't see how trading him to either of those two teams makes sense.

None of the above. It just doesn't matter anymore. Here is a typical Browns season:



Goodbye.

BM, IMHO, is not a bad QB, but he is now toxic in Cleveland. He could have a 2nd chance in Miami or SF. Baker, Tua and Jimmy fit the same schemes, so it wouldn't be a major stretch to see the trade made. Taking a 2nd chance on any of this QB's is not a long stretch, IMHO.

Sometimes its just a question of fit. Coaching staff and city.

Ok, so, it had to do with game planning and the fact that they were leaving Hudson 1 on 1 with watt.

Trading Baker right now would be stupid. If he heals up and plays next season crappy then sure.

Not sure baker is toxic


Browns fans were delusional

We had the 2nd easiest schedule in the nfl last year and snuck in the playoffs

This year we only had like 8 players actually play all season. (Least amount in the nfl)
We had like the 9th hardest schedule
Tons of injuries, tons of dropped passes, tons of bad coaching, tons of bad qb play, tons of everything

Not giving baker another year would put every nfl player on notice not to come here because,
When we don't make the playoffs 1 year (after being horrendous for decades) we are trying to cut our seriously injured qb who was the francose qb until his injuries


Drew Brees all over again.

Bake needs to heal and get back to basics
coaches need reflection

Never worked in Cleveland and never will. Baker is toxic now, he does not have the support of the staff nor the players, We have seen all we had to see.

We actually have a good team, we do not need Baker to get to the playoffs, never did.

Baker isnt toxic. The fans are. Go look in the gameday thread and see for yourself.

How many players do you need more to come out and say it? Baker is Toxic, like anyone who takes credit for the jobs he does not do is... Baker himself alluded to problems in the building...
In 3 seasons, Baker play prevented us from getting to the playoffs twice. One season we got to the playoffs and it was not because of BM...

OBJ and Hunt were just pointing the obvious and they paid the price, Myles didn't because he is Myles.

Baker isn't even the 5th best player on the team, time to stop acting like he is the franchise QB, he isn't, this is Chubb's team.

If I'm Baker, I'm out asap. You don't say you'll talk to your family and agent to decide if you'll play the last game… The coach should either be involved OR should have sat him himself. And death threats? And fans wanting him shipped for playing all season injured. Why would anyone want to return to that.

If we signed Trubisky to back up Baker, I think he would either beat him out in camp or take over by Game 3. Trubisky went 11-3 one year in Chicago. He is not terrible. As for Derek Carr, I think we can dream on there. Would love to have him, but he’s got that team in the playoffs.
I don’t think we could trade Baker for a third round pick right now. This season was a disaster.

It's highly unlikely that we would trade Baker.

If it is "highly unlikely" that we trade Baker, it may be because there is no market for him. After all, he's due $18M next year, so if we've decided he isn't the guy, or if he doesn't want to be here, why would we keep him at that price? On the other hand, if they still think he can be the QB of the future if he is healthy, then maybe they don't want to move him. I think that is less likely every day. I applaud him for playing hurt, but he let down his teammates and fans so many times this year. Batted passes, missing open men, throwing into coverage, taking sack after sack - that isn't the shoulder. It's between the ears.
If we were to trade him, I just don't see anyone biting. Teams set at QB don't want him as a backup. Teams without one probably have a good draft pick and want to develop their own. And no one would delude themselves into thinking bringing him in would energize their fanbase.

No kidding. I've no idea if Baker will be here or not. I'm not bothering to speculate. For wanting to come to Cleveland and saying so before the draft, for giving his all - healthy or injured - every game ... I am going to be a fan of his for life no matter who he plays for (except if he's playing against the Browns). It would be very Browns for Baker to move on and have a metamorphosis like Brees somewhere else. And for all the bile and hate that gets directed his way, it'd seem like karma. If the guy is just bad - like Kizer, Couch, Manziel, Quinn - move on, I just don't get the extreme hate and and never will.... Death threats - for a QB. ey ey ey.

Couch wasn't bad, the team around him was.. I would love to have Couch as the QB on this team.

There is no reason to hate the guy. He played hurt, he tried hard. And death threats are sick and embarrassing. But I'm not seeing him turn into Drew Brees. Brees could read defenses and find the open man. He didn't take sack after sack because he didn't have the confidence to throw it. He didn't need a chip on his shoulder to motivate him. I think Baker could go somewhere else, and with some luck, get another chance as a starter. If so, his ceiling is more Andy Dalton than Hall of Famer. I wish him well.

I'm shocked that the people on this site that waited decades for a good team wants to immediately cut bait and run because of a bad season laced with injuries and COVID. I'm critical of the Browns because I believe they are better than they have shown. I'm critical of the Head Coach and scheme because history shows his way alienates players. I find it comical that so called fans on this site want to go out and get some other team's retread QB like Trubisky, Jimmy G or Tua. Come on people, those QB's are going to be available because their current team doesn't believe they can lead them. Are you really that naive that you're willing to accept a QB that's lost their job and/or team just to replace Baker because you don't like him? Starting over at QB is not an option because of the pieces they already have in place. Do the Browns really have a window of 2-3 years to wait for the development of a new QB? Here's the question that's stumped me since Stefanski arrived, Is Stefanski's scheme built to take advantage of the skill set that Mayfield brought to the Browns or is the scheme set to an ideology of game control with the run? Baltimore has set their offense based on the skill set of Jackson. So has Cincy with Burrows, BUF with Allen, GBP with Rodgers, TBB with Brady, LAR with Stafford, KCC with Mahomes, LAC with Herbert and even Watson in HOU. Can anyone truthfully say that the Browns are using Mayfield the same way they used him in 2018 when he broke Manning's record for TD passes for a rookie? Another issue to consider is how many of the above have had 3 different head coaches and 3 different OC's in their first 4-years in the league?

Let's be candid here too, with the offensive scheme Stefanski is running no top end QB would ever consider coming to Cleveland. For those stretching out for Cousins, the last 4-years he's led the Vikings to 1 playoff appearance in 2019 with a 1-1 result. Where the hell is the upside when currently Cousins is 32-31-1 vs Mayfield 31-32-1 over the last 4 years and Cousins will be 34 next season and Baker will be 27 - WHERE THE HELL IS THE UPSIDE? Not to mention who has had the better supporting cast like WR's (Theilen and Jefferson vs Landry and Peoples-Jones)? What about RB, in 4-years comprising of 51 games Cook has averaged 86.02 rushing yds per game and Chubb 83.47 over the same 4-year span covering 57 games. Cousins would cost significantly more money, be older and as it stands - have less weapons. WHERE'S THE UPSIDE?

Finally, when you have color commentators asking what the hell Stefanski is doing and opposing QB's questioning what Stefanski is doing and players demanding trades because of what Stefanski is doing you have a much bigger issue than your QB. Now it appears that Stefanski's mentor at Minnesota is on his way out because of his refusal to adjust his scheme and we have Mike Zimmer 2.0 sitting here in Cleveland. The Browns will be successful starting the day they start to use the skill set of the QB they draft. If for some reason they decide to draft a QB like a Hurts or Fields coming out of college and demand that player play like a Burrows or Rodgers would be a plan to fail - you have to be able to adjust your scheme to the skill set of those running it - otherwise you are in a constant state of flux trying to find that perfect QB to execute your scheme. That's the blockbuster movie we just watched of the Brown's 2021!

This is a discussion I had recently too. Couch was better than Baker, right? I was younger, but goodness I think so.

Baker is better than couch, but def has better line and backs. As much as I bag on Baker this year, its more out of his selfishness to keep playing injured and hurting the team. I still think he's shown more that would give him a pass for another year, Stefanski, not so much. He's not the coach thats going to do anything for us and this team. He hurts the team more than baker does. Problem is it will probably be Baker that moves on.. At this point I'm not sure keeping either is in the best interest of the team. Stefanski's offense is antiquated and doesn't work long term in the nfl and we def. don't have the horses to run it.

Much like the people who want to "move on" from Baker Mayfield, I don't put much stock in the stories of Baker wanting a change of scenery, for the same reason. You need to have a willing partner at the other end. Who out there likes Mayfield enough to bring him on AND give up the necessary assets to secure him from us?

If I am Baker - or in his camp - I'm asking for a way out of Cleveland. The Hudson @ RT decision(s) was criminal and the last straw for me with Ski's "genius" and his playcalling...Aaron Rodgers was spot on with that. In the 16th game of the year, it took how many hits before the HC/OC finally saw that Hudson needed help - or benched even. Hudson must have looked good in practice...probably guarding Garrett...then a true DPOY lined up across from him and the real game started. Wills looks disinterested to me. Callahan has his work cut out for him...if he stays.

We are looking at a mini-rebuild here folks. We need a LT, RT, WR, WR, TE, TE...if we don't upgrade those spots (maybe move Wills to RT) it won't matter (again) who is the QB. Free agents aren't going to want to play for whomever replaces Baker (Trubisky? Tua? Mariota? My goodness...we actually have fans suggesting we get those guys) OR wait and see how Baker's surgery goes...this mini-rebuild will have to be through the draft - actually drafts...and that's just on offense.

We don't need to pay $18mil for any QB on a team that won't be able to get the "weapons" (for a couple/three years anyway) needed to compete in the pass-happy NFL and for a HC calling plays and creating schemes like we've seen all too often this year.

Lastly, the media loves to shiz on the Browns...they love that Baker has struggled...too many Browns fans do not like (or even hate) the guy and see HIM as the primary problem. That total lack of respect leads to DPIs not being called...head slaps and facemasks on our QB not being called...phantom holds and false starts being called that kill momentum. Free agents not biting. No one can come back from that "Reputation"...not even a brash kid who took the wheel of a 1-31 (4-44) team and two years later won a playoff game.

The worst part is that the next guy will also be hated by the media...he too will be torn down and suffer from calls and non-calls until he too moves on.

It's not all Baker's fault, but you just can't keep making excuses for the missed receivers (not bad throws, but misreads) and the turnovers. He just never drives the team to a late come-from-behind victory, and that goes back to before this year. Whose fault is it that four passes got batted down last night? OBJ's dad might be a jerk, but that video was damning. We spent three years trying to make a former superstar just a guy who could help. He goes to LA and Stafford starts tossing him TDs.
I like him, too. But this is just not working.

jc

watson! watson! watson!

and good lord. yall still talking about trubisky?

i almost forgot how so many of you thought trubisky was better than watson. it was so laughable then, but now im wondering if some of you need to be omitted to a mental institution.

trubisky is trash. we have a chance to go get a TOP TIER QB. take the risk, and get a real franchise QB.

I'm looking/thinking about which QBs are out there and available over the next 2 offseasons, but I'm really hesitant on Watson. There's the obvious legal purgatory he's in, but I'm actually more worried about what Stefanski will want his role to be and who he's going to have catching passes out there.

Baker is a big part of the problem, but Baker isn't leaving a rookie 4th rounder on an island vs Watt and refusing to adjust, and Baker isn't the highest paid TE dropping pass after pass. If we're going to swing a massive trade for a legit vet fQB, there are other things in our house we have to straighten out.

trust me i feel you bro. its a huge coin flip with his legal issues. however, this crap has moved so slow that its probable he dodges any charges.

and for the record, i keep saying this: he will most likely get suspended for play misconduct like kareem hunt and serve 6-10 game suspension. AS HE SHOULD.

but just like browns fans forgave and embraced a kareem hunt who was ON VIDEO beating up on a woman, if watson dodges charges on some he said/she said stuff with no evidence, than it is what it is.

as far as on the field. you're right. stefanski needs to fix that. but watson can move and scramble out of harms way when that crap happens. and watson is a much better passer than baker. for more accurate. lets not forget that baker has been missing open receivers left and right. lets not forget that baker mayfield cant even read defenses. lets not forget how many times we have a receiver open, only for baker to not take the easy pass and throw it until double coverage and such.

watson lost hopkins and STILL ended up a top 5 QB that season. a run dominated team for someone like watson would be devastating to opposing defenses.

i want to win. i want a QB that can match throw for throw against burrow, or run for run against lamar. thats watson, a TRUE dual threat.

I'm not sure what frustrates me more. The QB situation or the WR situation. Why do the Browns need a WR when that position does not appear to be a valuable position in the play callers playbook. Yes, be nice to have someone stretch the field to get the ball to the tight ends. Be nice to to have a WR who can stretch the field and actually get a ball thrown to him in rhythm and not have to stop to catch the ball.


What QB or WR would want to come here ?

j/c...

I'd say it's a fairly safe bet that we saw Baker play in Browns uniform for the last time last night.

Between the comments made between the FO/Coaches and Mayfield over the last month it seems like a fractured relationship has been in the making and we saw it come to head last night.

Nobody on this team is having fun anymore.

Here we are again....a dumpster fire to end the season.

A big part of me loves Baker, and wants to give him another chance ....

But another big part of me feels like I've seen enough inconsistency over the last three years from him and that it's time to move on.

I fully acknowledge his injury has been a hinderance to him, and I've defended him all year.

I also fully acknowledge that our WR core is awful, and Stefanski hasn't put him in the best play call situations all season long.

(See all the empty set formations and lack of bootleg/play action early in games).

He's played a big hand in our failures, but so have other people on the team.

Before we upgrade the QB position, we're in desperate need of a WR/TE make over, so let's assume that's going to happen.

With that being said, if we're going to replace Baker, here is who I'd prefer to replace him with if it were up to me ....

#1 - Derek Carr .... this really only happens if the Raiders fail to make the playoffs and then try to lure Aaron Rodgers and Devante Adams to town in the off-season. Vegas could then potentially trade Carr for a mid-round draft pick or two and he's the guy I would love to have here. This is probably an unrealistic long shot. If I am Vegas I would be happy with Carr's play and would do all I can to try and surround him with some better weapons. Considering that team doesn't have a good defense, or even any good receivers minus Reinfrow (spelling?) he's done wonders for them as far as keeping them competitive goes. I highly doubt we land him, but if it's possible he's definitely at the top of my list.

#2 - Jimmy G ... seems like he might fit Stefanski's run first/play-action style offense. With the 49ers having Lance waiting in the wings we might be able to get him for a mid-round draft pick.

#3 - Move up and draft Kenny Pickett and sign/trade for Gardner Minshew to compete with him to be the starter ... this also means releasing Keenum to free up cap space to address other positions. I like Minshew and think he has a lot of moxie that this team continues to need. He did pretty well at times in Jacksonville when you consider the lack of talent around him down there. Maybe he could shine behind a good offensive line and with a consistently good running game? You never know. I really like Pickett too if we can get him, and if he can take some time to develop that's even better.

Obviously I would love to have Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson, but I don't think getting either of them to come to Cleveland is going to be very realistic, and I'm not interested in trading half a dozen high draft picks to get them either.

I mean Baker played like garbage. No getting around that - but I think this decision for our rookie RT to be 1 on 1 with the best pass rusher in the NFL for so much of the game was one of the most perplexing and infuriating things about last night game and Stefanski. There's a lot to unpack from the game - but this had me thinking we are the old Browns again, a week after taking GB to the wire.

Yeah, I was also thinking about Hunt when I wrote my last post. I had a stronger post written about his legal stuff but backed off because then I'd be a hypocrite (I'm a vocal Hunt fan on this team).

I am starting to hope that we're looking at what quick (if expensive) fixes we can make at the QB position. The problem is that that doesn't solve all our problems, and actually makes some worse (we need draft assets to address other areas). I hope we re-sign Clowney, but we also need to draft a promising DE behind him. We need to throw some $$ at the TE position and $$ and draft picks at the WR position.

I don't think we're as bad off as many think (especially now after watching that game). I think our Oline getting healthy and us getting a viable replacement for Hubbard gets the offense mostly back to where it needs to be. I do think an offseason to get his mind and body right will do Baker wonders. If that's enough is the real question. I'm just not sure we can swing a Earth-shattering QB acquisition while fixing the other things with the offense.

I think you're right.

I think a big part of Baker's issues this year was not getting the contract. It caused him to doubt himself, press, and play poorly. Then you add the injury. Baker cannot manufacture confidence. It needs to be provided.

In a weird twist of fate I believe Baker would have played much better had they extended him and he was the unquestioned starter moving forward. They didn't, and he just caved under the pressure.

As for Stefanski, Matt Nagy took a beating for a week after leaving his tackle on an island with Garrett. What Stefanski did last night was no different. It was either intentional or poor coaching. I believe Stefanski will be here next year, but if he doesn't make the playoffs we'll be looking for another coach again. And short of watson, Rodgers, or Wilson we won't be making the playoffs.

Good times ahead.

Yeah, the Hudson at RT with NO HELP is an abomination to coaching .. that HAD to be a set up for Baker to fail, no? We couldnt possibly think that would work … and then to never adjust?

I don't know. Didn't Baker walk on to 2 college teams? For all the knocks on him, needing to be coddled and have confidence fed to him doesn't seem to be one of them.

j/c...

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Baker Mayfield from EMPTY sets this year according to @SportsInfo_SIS

10th in dropbacks
11th in EPA
4th in Positive%

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Empty sets do not appear to be the big issue folks want them to be compared to his peers.

John Kosko
@JohnKosko3
Since week 10, 30 QBs have at least 150 dropbacks.

Baker Mayfield ranks
Grade: 29th
TWP%: 29th
BTT%: 20th
Inaccurate rate: 30th

https://twitter.com/jake_burns18/status/1478394853885108242
https://twitter.com/JohnKosko3/status/1478389215104745478

Baker's insistance on going out there and playing injured while severely hurting the team's chances to win games probably cost him a lot of respect. Same with our coach for letting it happen. The team leadership is totally in the crapper right now. Hearing Bernie talk about not being able to throw with a harness on confirms it, yet we did it week after week.

j/c

Like a pair of jeans that fit just right...we get to go back to our two decade + comfort zone of looking for a QB and likely riding the QB carousel...the good times return. Found this list of FA QBs:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/quarterback/

These ranked from a different site:

1. Tyrod Taylor, Houston Texans
2. Teddy Bridgewater, Denver Broncos
3. Jameis Winston, New Orleans Saints
4. Cam Newton, Carolina Panthers
5. Ryan Fitzpatrick, Washington Football Team
6. Marcus Mariota, Las Vegas Raiders
7. Ben Roethlisberger, Pittsburgh Steelers
8. Jacoby Brissett, Miami Dolphins
9. Andy Dalton, Chicago Bears

Man...there is some serious green grass over there...gotta get us some of that.

I suppose we could trade to FINALLY land Garropolo in maybe a swap with Baker (we will surely get to see Keenum then in the new year)...Drew Lock has no guaranteed $$$ left on his last year of '22 (maybe the next Ryan Tannehill)...Trade Baker straight-up for Matty Ice...send Baker to Saints for a 3rd Rd pick and roll with Fitzpatrick (nah Mariota)...or swap Baker for Watson and have no QB until the league decides what to do with him/us (that'd be fun).

I imagine the 3rd-best-or-so QB will be sitting there for us at pick #13...or maybe trade up inside the top 10 to get Matt Corral.

We're BACK!!!!

Then Baker following that up with his decision to play Hudson at RT and have him go one-on-one with Watt...so selfish. I'll stop being a donkey now.

Look...I get your frustration...but Baker doesn't decide who starts and who plays...he just doesn't. If he truly lost respect by nutting-up and playing through the injury...then he absolutely needs out of Cleveland.

Regardless who's at QB next year, as long as Stefanski remains this team will not be good.. This offense is boring and doesn't put any pressure on defenses with the pass. Its been proven time and time again that if you sell out to stop the run against us you will win. Stefanski blows as a playcaller. I mean look at the jump that minn took after stefanski left. He hates WR and you need WR to win consistently. No QB will come here and play for a coach that doesn't value receivers. It's almost as bad as Woods not valuing linebackers and ours are some of the worst.. Like I said before, Berry needs to get some of this as well. You are the guy who builds the team. You pay a backup qb 10mil/year and then don't play him despite your starter hanging together with rubber bands and elmer's glue. Plenty of games you could have put him in and more than likely won and protected baker...The detroit game for example

Yeah Hudson is one of the worst tackles I've seen us trot out there, makes Hubbard look like Orlando Pace. If Stefanski had any clue he could have done tons more. Wills is a natural RT, Bitonio plays LT better than Wills does, but hance at LG and boom, you have a line that probably isn't going to give up 9 sacks

Play man. Get any pressure. Baker can't handle it.

Why the empty sets?!?!?!

https://twitter.com/jake_burns18/status/1478395955003207682


EMPTY with 3TEs included as of latest
@SportsInfo_SIS
data.

Mayfield is the only player in the NFL with more than 10 attempts. 9-16 for 200 yards and 1TD/0INT.

Again, not the issue.

Honestly, I think the heart Baker showed trying to truck the DB was probably the only thing remotely positive he did last night. He showed some guts (but little else).

This play was a sack.

This was a sack for #90.

I remember this play. I think the real mistake here was taking off to his right. By doing that he cut off all but 1 receiving option (the two that would require throwing back across his body and the RB who was no longer an outlet because Baker ran right behind him).

At worst this should be a throwaway.

someone has to explain how an injury to the non throwing shoulder resulted in a sack on this play.

i wanna see the spin jobs on this. its gonna be good.

It ended last night. Baker doesn't fit our scheme...too many fans don't like him either as a player or a person...the media loves to hate on him...time to move on.

The scheme was perfect for Baker last year. All the coaches came back. The entire offense came back. We ran play action at the same rate.

In this still, he's looking at DPJ, but sees the defender breaking onto him and won't let it fly. Like many times throughout the game, he didn't see the other guy who was hilariously wide open.

only has 3 recievers open, whats he to do? sheesh

Ok then...the scheme is a perfect fit...but Baker forgot how to play NFL QB and it's time to move on. Free agent pass-catchers will jump at the opportunity to play in this high-scoring scheme with whomever is here to throw the ball 18-20 times a game and they can block their butts off to victory and riches. The negativity cannot be overcome...deserved or not...rip off the bandaid and get a new guy in here.

He’s literally passing up multiple wide open receivers for sacks. So yes, him forgetting how to play NFL football seems like a viable explanation.

The whole team sees this stuff when they look at film and they have to be beyond frustrated. Everyone in the locker room knows in their heart that he more than anyone else on the team, by far, kept them from the playoffs. Kept them from winning maybe 12 games. He just doesn't read the defense or make good decisions. I don't know how that gets fixed.

Yet everything we've seen and heard out of Baker is that he wants to start and he wants to play. So I guess you're suggesting that Stefanski should be saving Baker from himself?

Yeah, I bet every QB there is would like a HC that would bench his QB when he says he's healthy enough to play much better.

Then again we could have a QB that realizes how poorly his play is impacting his game and not insist on playing.

Medical staff 👍
Baker 👍

Sitting Baker is equivalent to benching him if you sit him. How do you think that would go over?

This! QFT

Not last night, but there were games where Baker started the game with a visible limp. I don't think sitting him in those situations is equivalent to a benching. Just like sitting him next weekend so he can get surgery isn't the same as a benching (though he arguably earned one).

And it was perfect for 2 weeks this year too. I wonder what changed?

The claim that Stefanski forgot how to coach is no less crazy sounding. When working together they had an 11-5 record last year with this same scheme.


Not when someone with a basic understanding explains to them that the QB in question was limited by injuries.


By new guy do you mean QB, HC or both?

This play ended in a sack last night, too...


**Never mind, same play. Just a different angle

Baker basically pulled himself from next week’s game.

I agree that Baker shouldn’t have been playing earlier in the season at his peak of bangedupness but I’m not sure Stefanski had much of a choice.

I'm not going to defend Baker who looked like trash last night. But in this image where 3 WR are open according to the snapshot - is Watt blocked or is he two steps away from sacking Baker? And how many fractions of a second is it going to take Watt to cover those 2 steps? Having multiple receivers open is great. Having a QB that double and triple clutches and doesn't trust his throw is bad. But so is having a turn style try to block the best pass rusher in the NFL.

It is Stefanski's decision who starts/sits. Look, I hate using hindsight to criticize decisions like this but when you say a guy is your best option to start and he begins the game with a noticeable limp it kind of invites that type of criticism.

Baker's arm is literally in a throwing motion while Watt is not pressuring him (with multiple open receivers). If we are going to make excuses for him on this play then there is no hope.

Same response to you as cfrs.

It was perfect for weeks 1 and 2 this year als0 - unless you don't think 81% completion rate is good enough? What happened ?

Obviously Baker got injured. I don't see how his injury prevents him from throwing to wide open receivers instead of throwing INTs or taking sacks. I definitely think the injury is to be blamed for some percentage of his poor play. How much? I don't know.

It is in the throwing motion, but the defender is already breaking towards DPJ. If Baker pulled the ball in and saw whoever is running across the middle he'd still have time to zip it in there.

What ever it was didn't change against Chargers when we scored 42 points. Nor did it change when we scored 41 points against the Bengals. Actually in both of those games we scored more points than in either of our first two games. I do understand the harness impacted his throwing. I still have no idea what that has to do with his decision making and missing wide open WR's on a regular basis.

Comprehension is an issue for you?

I stated Baker was trash. I mentioned he double and tripled clutched which I know he did on this play. I said I wasn't defending him. And you come back accusing me of making excuses. smh

It wouldn't matter if there was 5 open WR running 5 yards free - if the RT is a turnstile and the pass rusher is unblocked he isn't going to get to a second read.

Did we really? I'm not doubting this just curious because at times throughout the season I thought to myself "Where did the PA go?" Granted, it seemed like we only began to do this with some regularity towards the second have of the season last year but I don't have any stats to go from in either year.

It seems likely that the injuries affected the ability to throw, which resulted in bad passes and interceptions, and then those failures wrecked his confidence. That is all understandable, and maybe he could be fixed next year. We would all love to see that. We have no idea how much pain he was in or how hard it was to throw with that harness. But are the great ones so fragile in terms of confidence? It seems like he is streaky based on whether or not he "feels dangerous," and that kind of mentality is not really conducive to comeback drives to win in the final two minutes.

I think it would need to be reviewed game by game and not as a complete season because I felt like some games we Play Actioned a lot - and others very little. Be interesting to see correlation between use of PA and points success or otherwise throwing game by game.

Last year we had 122 play action attempts through 16 games.
This year we have had 108 play action attempts through 16 games.

So 7.63 times per game in 2020 versus 6.75 in 2021.

(Last time I looked the number were nearly identical.)

I cannot like this post enough.

Hmm....so not wildly different than last year. Thank you.

There's also the issue of him passing up wide-open options for riskier/bad ones or holding the ball until he's sacked. On the INT to DPJ, he had Njoku for an easy 1st. Then there was the one play earlier in the year when he had Felton right at the sticks with nobody around him, and tried to run for the 1st and failed.

Is this type of discourse necessary?

Baker's confidence is absolutely crushed and he has no answers. He no longer trusts what he sees and hesitates to the point he's either taking sack after sack or throwing late and off target.

It's like watching Rick Ankiel try to pitch.

Baker has Steve Blass Disease.

What's so interesting about the Baker contract thing is that there's no less than 50 comments on this site about what a great second half of 2020 that Baker had as the Browns headed to the playoffs. He was a top 5 rated QB in year 3 ending a playoff drought, set the rookie record for TD passes, took the Browns for 1-15 to 11-5 in 3-years and what did he get in return - his 5th year option picked up and no new contract. Of course, Baker was playing under undo pressure because basically, what Baker accomplished in his first 3-years wasn't good enough for the Browns to commit.

Fast forward to year 4, your all-pro right tackle misses the majority of the season, your #1 WR isn't ready to start the season and is a shell of himself when he does return as he demands a trade in the background, your #2 WR goes down to injury, your #1 RB goes down to injury, your #2 RB goes down to injury, and the experiment at LT (this poster tried to tell this forum that Wills at LT was going to be a disaster) is failing miserably and is fragile. Add in the fact that through all of this Baker is trying to carry a shell of a team compared to the 2020 team on his back even being injured at the time only to have a head coach that refuses to adjust his scheme and restricts his franchise QB to the bottom 25% of the league in passing attempts and yardage. Of course, the kid is trying to make the big play - what choice did he have? Bad decision making - you bet - but look what the coach gave him to work with.

Stefanski is a terrible play caller and his scheme sucks for the 2021 NFL. He left his QB on an island and has done nothing since he's been here to play towards Mayfield's skill set. OBJ seen the handwriting on the wall just as Diggs did when playing for Stefanski in Minnesota. Stefanski's WR's are just extensions of the offensive line.

The stats don't lie either. There are 14 teams that will make the playoffs. If the LAC and LVR both make the playoffs (they are still in contention and beat the Browns) the top nine passers in attempts and yardage will all make the playoffs. To do the math - 9 of the 14 openings or 64.3% of the spots are taken by the top passing teams. Currently, only one of those teams have a 1,000 yard rusher (Cincy). Those top 9 passers are averaging 587.33 pass attempts this season between them. Mayfield has had 418 attempts so far this year - 169.33 less attempts than the top 9 average. In passing yards, those same top 9 have averaged 4,485.11 thus far this season between them while Baker has thrown for 3,010 yards, a difference of 1,475.11 yards. The interesting stat is that Mayfield averages 7.2 yards per attempt. Burrows leads the pack at 8.9 yards per pass attempt, but Brady has averaged 7.3, Mahomes 7.4, Allen 6.9, Prescott, 7.6 and Rodgers 7.8.

Tom Brady has 264 more passing attempts than Mayfield this year. Mahomes has 196 more than Baker and Allen has thrown 183 more times than Mayfield. Before you campaign to dump Baker, ask yourself why a team would draft a Heisman Trophy winner who was a gunslinger in college #1 overall who broke the rookie TD record and have him throwing 30% less passes per season than the top playoff bound team QB's? Is it the head coach or the player? You can bet that if I can do a little research to see what Stefanski is doing in Cleveland so can any player that you wish would come here - do you really think a Derek Carr is going to even consider coming to Cleveland to throw 172 plus (and counting) passes per season? You must be weak in the head if you think that's going to happen.

Keep Baker and change the scheme to play to his skill set - or be prepared for years of rebuilding again!

Oh my god, that video replay is so much worse to see than the still image.

He looks at DPJ open, pumps, then looks at the middle guy, pumps, then tries to scoot left.

So you’re plan is to pass more with the QB who can’t find open receivers?

My post said I wasn't making excuses for Baker. By post said he played badly. That on that play and others he double clutches (that's bad), some times he triple clutched (worse).

My comment was about the "freeze frame" - and what may or may not be the best edge rusher two steps away from Baker, and how the RT was an issue all game which is all IN ADDITION to Baker's issues. You can either agree or disagree with that. Providing a video is better - but I am still not making excuses for Baker who played very badly.

I feel DPJ should have kept running, he stops and backs into the defender. Looks like Baker hits him in stride it's a nice gain

My guess is it was a timing thing. His defender has no play on the ball and there's a guy coming into the middle from the other direction. Baker had an easy completion if he was on time to DPJ, and then probably had another easy completion to that middle guy after he came off of DPJ.

That should have been an easy completion for a 1st down ....

Flick that ball as soon as DPJ stops to turn and the sticks get moved.

I wonder if Baker didn't trust DPJ to make the catch?

Could he not see clearly over Teller?

Is his mental clock off by a second or two cause of shoulder pain?

Is it all of the above?

It is interesting to think about how Baker thrived in 2018 under Kitchens in more of a run 'n' gun down field attack versus how he's looked in this new offense.

Is it the difference in receivers?

We had Perrmian (spelling) and Callaway in 2018, both speedsters, and Landry was 4-years younger at that time and had a little more pep in his step.

Was it the spacing of the WR's and the down field concepts/routes?

Did Baker feel really comfortable with his pass protection that season? (It wasn't particularly great from what I remember).

I'd love for Baker and Stefanski and the rest of the coaches to collaborate in the off-season to tweak the offense so Baker feels more at home in it.

Assuming the plan ends up being to keep him.

Baker had his best year and our team made the playoffs in 2020 having an 11-5 record in this same system. The best year we've had since our return. All we really need is a healthy Baker to run it again in order to find out if the injury was the cause of his issues or not. Nobody should tweak or change anything.

I actually, I agree with you PitDawg. I am not a huge Baker fan. I was against use drafting him. He did win me over some since then. I just think the majority of his struggles are 2 fold. 1) His injury in week 2. He played 1 game in 2021 not injured and looked the same as he did last year. At Chiefs. He was 21 of 28 for 321 yards with 0 TD and 1 INT. Passer rating of 97.5. He got injured the next week and has not really looked the same as last year since. 2) Stefanski's offense now has a book against it with Baker at the helm. Last year it really did not because it was year 1 in that offense. I think defenses have adjusted and now it will be time for Baker and Stenaski to evolve and counter that defensive adjustment.

Besides these 2 issues in 2021 the entire team has been injury prone in 2021. Injuries are part of the game but teams need some luck and not get devastated by injuries and this team has. It also started week 1 vs the Cheifs. LT got Jedrick Wills got hurt. At the time of that injury the Browns were in full control of that game. After that injury the Browns did not move the ball with the same efficiency and then came Chubb's only fumble on the season, Jamie Gillian dropping the ball on a punt, and finally Baker's INT to seal their fate. Baker gets hurt the next week does not look the same again. And injuries just pile up. In my mind injuries caused this disappointing season.

Heck, this team is 7-9 with 4 PT loss to Chiefs, 5 PT loss to Chargers were a phantom pass interference was called or the Browns win, 5 PT loss to Steelers, 6 PT loss to Ravens, 2 Pt loss to Raiders with 8 starters and 18 total players out with covid, and a 2 PT loss to Packers still with many players out with covid and a pass interference or holding not called. That is 6 close losses. If the PI is called vs Chargers, and no covid vs Raiders, and the PI is called againast Green Bay this team is 10-6 playing the Bengals for division title and already clinched a wild card.

This team does not need blown up.

PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT DUDE. Look I get it, people don't like Mayfield and are looking at every little thing he does and tearing it apart. The so called fans here have made a history of trying to run every QB out of town that's played for the Browns since their return. First, you can't tell any of them the player is suspect in the beginning but let the guy lose a few games or make a mistake and they're ready to hang him from the highest tree. Second, after 20 years of losing you'd think there might be a sliver of support for the QB that ended the drought and got you to the playoffs - BUT HELL NO - THIS IS CLEVELAND!

It's just like the huge disagreement on here about drafting Wills or my choice of trading for Trent Williams. I was called stupid, that Williams was washed up, that the year he was out with caner was a fake and he's fragile, and that Wills was the second coming of Thomas. Now, two years later, Wills is failing miserably - LT now is an urgent need for the team - and yet some will say Wills poor play had nothing to do with Baker's performance. Meanwhile, Williams is the top-rated offensive lineman in the NFL for the second year running. He's made the Pro Bowl every year he's played less his cancer year. Being only 33, Williams still has 4-5 years of play left while the Browns now are in the active market for a LT - AGAIN!

So when I say that the Browns are blowing it at QB, I say so because I look at more than a missed receiver or a bad INT. Both tackles suspect at best this year with Conklin out most of the year. WR1 and WR2 missing significant time on the field. RB1 and RB2 missing significant time on the field. Baker himself playing with injuries and a coaching scheme that left him out on an island. Last year Baker was a god getting the Browns to the playoff's yet the fans turn on him like a rabid dog when he loses a few games no matter the circumstances. They won't look no further than the QB and the hell with anything else that's going on - just produce. Is it any wonder way the Brown's sucked so bad for so long? The fans in Cleveland only get behind a player if he was good yesterday - if not, you're dog meat and we need to get rid of your azz.

Now for 2022, Landry is more than likely going to be a cap casualty. Njoku is gone and was a 6.9 million option year waste of money. Clowney is a suspect resign, LT issues, RT issues depending on Conklin's rehab, zip on WR's and McKinley, Jackson, McDowell, Harrison and Odenigbo just a few of the FA's the Browns have address. Add to that we have a foolish push for a new QB. Only in Cleveland.

I have my reasons to question whether we will be the same as we were in 2020 with a healthy Baker and Stefanski or not. I have no prediction how that will turn out. What I do know is that I'm not willing to just throw that away based off of a season where everything from an injury riddled QB, an injury riddled team and circumstances that would cause any team to regress on some level happened.

We all witnessed last season. Last season is what created such high expectations for this season. I think it would be stupid to rid ourselves of the coach or QB that helped lead this team to that 11-5 record because of what they have been forced to face this season. I only have so many "start overs" left in me.

I'm not from the instant gratification crowd. Some things just don't turn out well when you try to microwave them. We saw the potential last year. We saw the struggles this year with a reasonable explanation of why we saw them. Some will call this an excuse but when something is a legitimate reason, that's not an excuse. There are certainly things to be improved on that are within our control. I'm not trying to say everything is perfect. But there is every chance that next year could be building on what we saw last year.

I'm certainly an advocate to watch as this thing slow cook rather than I am of starting over with a microwave TV dinner in hopes the flavor will be great. I've see snough over the past 20 years to know how that turns out.

Medical staff: "He's ready to play with minimal risk of further injury"
Baker: "Hell yes I'll play".

QB's have been benched for playing a lot less crappy than this. We needed a coach with some stones to bench him and not let his inability to play qb absolutely destroy our season. Baker himself should have seen that he was hurting the team rather than helping. That's our leadership. Do you think the other players on the team respect these guys now?

cfrs15

Do you have your quota of 75 posts for the day yet?

NFL players love when their QB plays through injury.

The first couple games maybe, but when you're stinking up the joint and the losses are piling up as a direct result, I think the love wanes.

I believe cfrs was being sarcastic, in that players 'love' when their QB plays injured.


Here's an angle to consider in what is/was a tricky situation:

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Just imagine how safe this space would be if the Browns forced Mayfield to shut it down w doctors clearing him & Mayfield saying he decides if he plays.

THEN starting Keenum w Baker saying he's willing & able to play as he sits on the bench. I am sure it would have gone well.

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
Mayfield was VERY vocal from the start he could and wanted to play. It would have been a PR disaster with forcing him to sit against his will on this and people would have been killing the organization for it as losses mounted.

Jake Burns
@jake_burns18
They gave him the respect of granting his wish to play and have always backed him publicly on everything--including OBJ.

The only time they forced him out was when doctor's made it clear he couldn't do it.

https://twitter.com/jake_burns18/status/1478444638105178115

It brings me joy that one of the arguments against Stefanski is that he had too much confidence in the QB that I love.

I wonder if Johnny Manzel would be interested in a comeback?

I think there is no question we are stuck with Baker next year.
I think he has to heal.
In hindsight, we should have shut him down and let him come back for the playoffs. He would have had 8 fewer injuries than he has now.

I think the whole coaching staff has to be brought back
I think Baker and Stefanski need to draw up some plays that fit Baker's style
I thnk we need someone else calling plays so that Stefanski can focus on the team


I think we had a bad year for a ton of reasons.

We didn't go to the playoffs because of Baker, we were a very good team and Baker was not called to win games. I recall that we had to win against the Jets to clinch the playoff, and Baker couldn't do it. Also remember the game against Pitt, facing the 2nd team and we almost lost it on the 4th quarter. We got to the playoffs because of our running game, not because of Baker.

On the other hand, IMHO, we didn't got to the playoffs this season and 2 years ago, mostly because of his poor play.

Any other player and we wouldn't be having this discussion. We are a good team, Baker makes us worst most of the times.

I've commented earlier on why Baker does't take what the defense gives him. He had a nice window to lead a pass to DPJ for an easy 7-8 yard gain. He seems to hesitate waitting for a bigger chunk play to develop which gets him in trouble.
Maybe MrKelso is right suggesting Baker just can't see over the lineman in the middle.

IIRC, he has had injuries to both legs, in addition to the shoulder.

When Stefanski 1st got here, AVP had Baker learn to play up on his toes. From the times I paid attention, he hasn't done so lately.

I think that there are certain throws he simply cannot make right now. I also do think that he is looking for bigger plays to develop.

I mean this seems reasonable - we win despite of Baker and lose because of Baker. Simple. PFF grading Baker highly has no contribution to winning any game during the 9 game skid at the end of last year. Makes perfect sense.

Ding Ding Ding to pretty much all of that.

Edited: Moved to Tab's new thread

Did Baker steal your girlfriend or something? You've been ragging on him since before he became a Brown.

And part of that injury list is Toes, and I think a Heel/Ankle. Both of those can really, really linger.
I have no clue to what degree it has impacted things of late, but it probably doesn't matter. What I saw in that Pittsburgh game was a team that was trash, from the top down. If we scuttled it all - coaches, schemes, roster - and restarted again, it wouldn't faze me one bit. I think Chubb, Landry, Bitonio, and Tretter are the only ones I'd make a point of keeping on offense. I'd like Baker to be in that list, but the mutual desire for divorce seems guaranteed by the silence of either side saying anything to the contrary to quiet the building talk around it. As for the rest of the offense's roster, to use the phrase, the rest are JAGs.

Which brings me back to what I said before, a QB will never survive in Cleveland because the fans are unforgiving. It doesn't matter if you're injured which he is, it doesn't matter that he has no #1 WR, it doesn't matter that the LT experiment has been a total bust, it doesn't matter that not 1 but both RB1 and RB2 missed significant time this year, it doesn't matter that your All-Pro RT missed the majority of the year, it doesn't matter that the scheme being used slots you in the bottom 25% of the league in pass attempts and yardage, it doesn't matter that your WR1 and WR2 were missing in action the majority of the year, it doesn't matter that your 3 TE set not only hampered your passing game due to no deep threat but that it advertised the intent to run leading to many defenses putting 8 in the box, and finally after 3-years of new coaches, coordinators, and systems yet was still able to lead your team to a 11-5 record and the playoffs your reward is no contract extension. Jackon, Allen, Mahomes, and Murray haven't had to deal with the coaching aspect yet people still want to compare results.

For those of you that have a glimmer of hope that the Browns are going to lure a top tier QB to Cleveland - no NFL QB worth his salt is going to come to Cleveland with basically zero WR's, poor TE's, current unacceptable tackle play, and the outlook of attempts and passing yardage being mired in the bottom 25% of the league due to your Head Coach scheme. Not to mention the fact that they all will be looking for long term deals in the neighborhood or 35 million per which would surely constitute cap casualties on a team that cannot afford to have those casualties.

Look, I think that Stefanski has been good for the Browns to the point where the team has learned to win and is much more disciplined than when he arrived. That was needed more than anything 2 years ago. However, his inability to adjust his scheme, the obvious lack of a passing model, disgruntled TE's and WR's, the destruction of the confidence of a young QB, and the face of a single action team allowing opponents to put 8 in the box daring us to throw with no receiving threats causes serious concerns going forward. Stefanski's run first scheme and refusal to adjust has put the Browns now 5 plus years behind the rest of the NFL due to the fact changing that will only occur though the draft since he's killed the upper FA market.

That's a comprehensive list,but you left one thing out.
Reports are his momma didn't breast feed him as an infant.

I'll let your own words verses the reality we all witnessed speak for itself. Nothing more really needs to be said.

Just talking about the colored text.

You do see you are contradicting yourself, right? It’s crazy some fans are saying to move on after 4 years of Baker, but it’s not crazy for You to say to move on from our LT after two years.

Baker officially on IR

Check the posts, I'm just confirming what many others are saying. LT is a weak area and needs to be addressed whether Mayfield's the QB or some other dumbass that wants to sacrifice himself at QB in Cleveland. Wills does not have the foot technique to play LT in the NFL. To the contrary, Baker has the skill set but we have a head coach that's more interested in his scheme than molding the team to the skill set of his players. There are hundreds of posts and articles pointing out that fact from the way he's coached this year. Now as per my post, I seriously questioned the drafting of Wills to play LT due to the fact he had limited to no exposure at the position in his life. This concern is coming to fruition sooner than expected. Baker on the other hand had progressive improvement in many areas over his first 3 years entering 2021. Unfortunately, a serious injury by anyone's standards in week 2 caused his play to regress which I blame mostly on the head coach yet many here want Mayfield's scalp even if it is unwarranted.

Wills offensive grade so far for 2021 is 62.1 which is 62nd of the 64 graded starting tackles. The best tackle in football (for the 2nd season in a row) is Trent Williams who currently grades out to 98.2. Conklin graded out to a 78.6 which is the 20th rated tackle. So, when I say that Wills has been a bad experiment, the stats prove that out.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...und-pick-and-jared-goff-to-lions-for-qb/

the Lions sent Stafford to the Los Angeles Rams in exchange for
the Rams' first-round draft picks in 2022 and 2023, a third-round pick in 2021, and quarterback Jared Goff
the lions also inherited Goff will count for $22.2 million on LA's books in 2021 while he is playing for Detroit



is anyone willing to give up more than 2 first-round picks, a 3rd, the reaming 2 years of Wilson's contract, and Baker's 19 million dollar contract in 2022?

I’m not saying he’s played great this year, but he’s been battling an ankle injury the whole year. Just like Baker and his shoulder which is important for his mechanics. Jedrick has been playing with ankle issues the whole year which is important for his mechanics.

This is one of the reasons I am saying you are contradicting yourself. Year 2 and looking for an upgrade after a season with a bum ankle.

Interesting article:

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/browns-maven-features/5-reasons-browns-offense-failed

Since I can't imagine paying a subscription fee for cleveland.com's content, I am not able to read this. However, if others are like me, here is a snippet from the piece.....

Very Accurate.

ergo: Stefanski is dogmatic about his system and has no intention of fitting it to what the players do best. He simply throws out his system with blinders on and revels in his tunnel vision.
Imagine Greg Roman taking that approach with Jackson and insisting he be an absolutely pure drop-back passer, and how amazingly stupid that would be. This is not any different.

It would be different if the 'KS' system had won division championships or SB's. The reality is that his system will get you so far - consistently - but the good teams and good defenses (have so far to date) always found a way to stymie him when it comes to crunch time. This year I think KS's hands were tied through a higher number of issues/challenges including injuries, and I don't think we got a true reflection of the ceiling ... But the complete lack of ability to adapt and roll with what we had and make adjustments when things were not working ... actually the lack of even trying to do something different when things were not working ... is concerning.

Yet that led us to an 11-5 record last year and a playoff birth.

WATSON WATSON WATSON.

send baker back to texas if he wants out.

This is literally the same system that Baker thrived in in 2020. What would he likely to have done differently?

I'd say it's more Baker realizes he just had a terrible season, knows he's not getting that big contract that he was playing for this year and he has one more shot at hitting the big payday. Therefore, he wants to be on whichever team gives him that chance to hit that payday that he may or may not ever get.

Baker is great at play action. We ran one less play action passing attempt per game than last year. Baker is great with multiple tight ends on the field, we run that personnel package than anyone. Baker is better out of empty. We run empty with multiple tight ends and he thrives.

Again, what should be differently?

I find we are agreeing an a lot of things here as of late. Why does that scare the hell out of me?

And personnel grouping usage was similar from 2020 and 2021.

I think Baker was just frustrated and even disappointed in himself. People say things in the heat of the moment they wouldn't ordinarily say. I'm going to let the smoke clear and the emotions to subside before trying to take anything said, or should I say more like "indicated" in the heat of the moment seriously.

j/c:



Well now....

I'm glad my disdain for MKC, once again, has been proven right.

It's official......he definitely wants out. Lol.

No kidding - funny how MKC has been universally despised and laughed at until she had a story that suited someone's agenda.

Marla Ridenour in the Akron Beacon-Journal says in her column today: “Baker Mayfield and the Browns appear headed for divorce, the trust between the quarterback and coach Kevin Stefanski broken, perhaps beyond repair.”

I do not disagree.

j/c...

Weeden coming out of the woodwork!...

You need to check a few post up on this page. Baker is saying it's being made up to create drama.

Never a dull moment...

Who is his source?

We need a comment from John Football before I believe anything.

I disagree completely. I think we spent 3 years trying to make OBJ a #1 WR, when he's not. Now he is playing with a legit #1 WR on the other side to take the pressure off...

And I'll say this again... Stafford played 9 games this year without OBJ and 7 games with him. Yes, OBJ caught 4 TDs in LA when he didn't catch any here and a lot of people felt the need to comment on that... good for him.

But, Staffords...
-Completion % fell by 2%
-Yards per game went down by 40 yards
-TD passes went down by about .5 TD per game
-INTs went up .6 per game
-Points per game dropped 4 points
-Record remained about the same

OBJ is getting some more of the stats from whoever he replaced in the line up, ok, but there is no evidence that says he's actually making the Rams any better.

While OBJ himself.. is averaging 1.3 more receptions and 9 more yards per game.. but he has scored some TDs.. so there you go.

she is known for this and a lot of other things.

she barely even writes her own articles.

It's the role played at cleveland.com/The Plain Dealer.

Roger Brown begot Tony Grossi who begot Mary Kay.
Same job. Same "reporting".

cleveland.com is garbage, and as such, so are the reports from the people they employ.

LOL. That is the best post I have seen here in a while. Thanks for the laugh, cfrs!

Good to see that Brandon Weeden's wife is still hot.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/01/06/report-baker-mayfield-may-ask-to-be-traded/

Here is what Baker is pissed off about. That cow put a lot of words in his mouth. And made a lot of assumptions and inflammatory statements.

I really wish they could sue for these bs articles. There’s gotta be some way to hold people accountable for what they put out

You're not the one who should be scared.

.

This is just awesome!!!

It’s not over until Billy Vegas says so.

Right? Why should we trust him? At least she provided a link!

This is the problem with media, in general. Take a thought, transpose that thought with many "if's", or "it's reported", and run with it.


Earlier today, I saw a headline "Wal Mart and Kroger jack up prices on home covid tests." I read it. Turns out, WM, and Kroger, had an agreement to sell the tests at cost for 100 days. An agreement with the Biden admin. They fulfilled that agreement. And tests went from basically $15 to $19.

The headline ticked me off. At least the article I read spilled the truth IN the article.

Media: Take a slant and run with it, true or not. Misleading as can be.

jc

so, anybody not notice a common theme here?

yall bashing MKC, and yet every former browns QB replying is......a former browns QB.

as in, not on team anymore.

there's just no way im the only one noticing that.

but maybe there is. all yall thought trubisky would be better than watson, and that baker would be better than lamar.

so imma go with MKC over you guys who have been wrong. literally. every. single. time.

The reason the ex and current QB don't like her is because she is a troll.

ex QB being the key words right there. Kizer didnt even last a year before he was...traded.

Brandon weed last two years....cut.


i mean....

Andre Knott agrees.

Remember when OBJ would always say he was happy here and the rumors about him wanting out were bogus? Me too.

Should be a fun offseason!

Well Baker says she is full of crap. If anyone knows whats going on its Baker. Did you even read that article? It was extremely negative and inflammatory. She even said that it was Baker's fault that he got injured. Injuries happen. But trying to blame someone for them is pretty low.

right. kizer and weeden said the same thing.

and yet they're gone. we picked up his 5th year instead of signing him to an extension. unless we plan on doing him like Prescott or Cousins, well...

That's all im saying Eve. there's a lot of FORMER browns players who disagreed with MKC, and yet.....former.

It's not like she doesn't have a history of posting trash. She makes a living posting trash.

You gonna start believing tabloids now?

To be fair Weeden was retirement age his second year in the league.

And Kizer had no business in the league......

Who wouldn't notice it? Who else would be qualified to respond besides other QBs? It sounds like you're using this as a "where there's smoke there's fire" type statement that proves Baker and the other two are lying.

That's fine, you have the right to believe whatever you want, but then doubling down on "you guys" being wrong about QB picks has nothing to do with the conversation! "You guys" just simply choose to believe the actual QB's words rather than somebody that gets paid to get clicks... and as far as I remember, Mary Kay wanted Sam Darnold!

lots came out about Kizer later on. poor kid was pissing himself scared before they put him in.

He needed a year or two to grow into the league so he could have a chance.

Roger Brown.
Man, years ago on the old board, someone had RB's head shot in his sig. The text was,
"Roger Brown- he looks like he's thinking, but then you read the articles..."

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/brown...able-differences-between-browns-mayfield

I might be on board, but I would like to see resolution on any pending sexual misconduct charges and any pending suspensions the NFL my impose.

Has all that been sorted out? If so, great. If not, I sure don't want to be trading for a player who might be facing time in jail, and or a lengthy suspension by the NFL.

If we were talking about anything football-related, that would be one thing. But what we're talking about is MKC being a terrible journalist. We already knew this to be true, but were worried "even a blind squirrel can find a nut every once in a while". The ex-QBs were commenting about her being terrible at her job, and not anything related to what they failed to do.

Most of the time, the most simple and obvious option is the truth.

If D. Watson settles his problems and came here he would definitely be an upgrade. However, who says he would want to come here? Let's face it, Cleveland is not the most attractive destination in the league. Food for thought.

I strongly disagree.

I just think we need a couple weeks of no Browns activity (so a couple weeks after this Sunday) for the dust to settle and for us to take an un-emotional look at the team.

We lost a ton of really close games with a seriously devastated roster. Our Oline gets healthy, and our offense is already mostly fixed. Yes, we do have a lot of work to do on the passcatcher groups, but Chubb and Hunt are still here, and our Oline (except for maybe Conklin?) should return healthy to start the year. That is huge. What's also huge is our defense. We have a really stout group that should (hopefully) return being able to pick up where they left off. We MUST re-sign Clowney and get someone for Takk's spot (hopefully a promising draft pick).

we embraced kareem who was on video. if the guy gets suspended for misconduct but no charges, whats the difference?

if we can embrace and forgive kareem, we can embrace and forgive watson whos on the same he said/she said stuff.

i think Watson would come here. the best O line he'll ever have. the best RB and TE groups. the scheme would be perfect for him, and stefanski would actually trust him to make the right reads and throws.

This is my only doubt.

I'd like to see Watson here. But I think, no matter what the legal system finds, the NFL is going to give him a lengthy suspension. Especially if he's a Brown.

as he should. i said it when the cases first dropped; at the very minimum that was cringe creepy behavior by watson. he should get 6-10 games just like Kareem.

im just talking about the pure football aspect. he's a top 5 QB who we will have on a 4 year contract that looks like a BARGAIN.

Wait...are you saying we have the best TE group? Or even close to a top tier group there? My goodness if so.

If Watson goes to Pitt it'll be a 4-6 game suspension...if he comes here it will be 10-17.

Swap Baker for him straight up asap - as they both have big ??? right now - and roll with Keenum for '22 until DW is available to play in '23. That will get us a top pick for 2023 where we can draft some pass-catching rookies for DW to throw to...in about a year-and-a-half. The free agents will will pick up with Keenum at the helm will be legendary.

bro you really that down on our TE's? i think they're good. Hooper is a bit disappointing but overall with him, bryant, and Njoku i think we're really solid there.

Both DeShaun Watson and Russell Wilson have a no trade clause, and I really doubt either would waive it to play here because we're not a destination city or a media center, and also because of Stefanski's "muted", reduced risk approach to offense.

I will state it again, no quality WR is going to come to the Browns (or upgrade at QB if you see fit) to get an immediate reduction of 25% to 30% in the passing game. These players future contracts are based on production, catches, yardage, and TD's. What player in his mid-twenties would ever consider signing with a team that is going to reduce his opportunities for success by 30%? As a fan, you can jump on that bandwagon of "run run run" but the reality is no top-notch receiver wants to play on that type of team. Championships, playoffs are a year-to-year item but contracts comprise 4-5 years and are highly dependent on the expected future level of production and past results. Coming to Cleveland as a skilled player (WR, TE, QB) as it currently stands with the Stefanski scheme is a death sentence for future contracts. OBJ saw that as did Diggs when in Minnesota playing for Stefanski. That's not a one off, that's a trend. 8 of the top 9 passers in yardage have already punched their ticket to the playoffs with Carr needing a win on Sunday to make it 9 out of 9. Tom Brady has had 264 more pass attempts than Baker this year. 12 of the 14 playoff spots are secured by the top 18 in passing yardage (which is 85.7% without Carr). You cannot win consistently in this league unless you move the ball through the air. Even if you move down to the middle of the pack for passing yardage (10th), that QB has thrown for 961 more yards than Mayfield and has had 121 more attempts.

Njoku is gone because he will naturally want a big raise and you can't increase his salary after paying him for 34 catches in 2021 at 6 million. Come on people, he's only caught 146 passes in five years or 29.2 per year. How many years do you think he needs to finally break out? Keep in mind, Kelce for KCC has caught 88 passes this year and 105 last year. That works out to Kelce catching 47 more passes in 2-years than it took Njoku 5-years to collect. Resigning Njoku would be stupider than what they are paying Hooper. Landry isn't going to take a pay cut, what's in it for him if he takes the cut? Less targets and a further slide on his 2023 contract? After what happened with OBJ, I suspect Landry is either gone or playing at his current contract rate. Higgins is toast - nuff said. That leaves FA's and the draft. FA's are a joke because as I said - NO QUALITY WR IS COMING TO CLEVELAND WITH THE CURRENT OFFENSIVE SCHEME. Neither is a QB so you can forget about that too. That leaves the draft to fill the void. 1st round picks have only a 50% chance of getting their 5th year option. 2nd and 3rd round picks are considerably lower on the success scale. For every Jefferson or Chase there are 10 times that many in the first 3 rounds that don't make it. That's why the draft is such a crap shoot.

Don't get me wrong, building through the draft is the way to go and if you're lucky you build a good team. Then you use the draft to bring in the next wave and it's a continuous cycle for those teams that do it right. We are talking about a complete retool of the WR corp mostly through the draft. That is problematic.

First and foremost, the play calling needs to be taken away from Stefanski. Second, the Browns most likely will have to find an Offensive Coordinator that will build an offense to the skill sets of the players but specifically to Mayfield's skill set. If that doesn't happen, what you saw with our WR/TE group in 2021 will look like a walk in the park compared to the horrors we'll see in 2022 with Peoples-Jones being the Browns #1WR if Landry darts. Not only that but expect Baker to dart after the season and Stefanski to be fired, Then the next multi-year or multi-decade rebuild will start in 2023!

The Browns offense is basically the same as the Vikings. So how is it that Justin Jefferson, Adam Thielen, Tyler Conklin are so much more productive than our skill players?

Answer: they are considerably more talented.

And has nothing to do with the QB of their respective teams? PFF has plainly shown that we have more open WR's than anyone on pass plays. But you must have a QB that can scan the field and find them. If and when that happens, our WR's and TE's would probably look a lot better. Don't get me wrong, they're not world beaters by any stretch. But if they're getting open on pass plays, which they are, and our QB isn't finding them and getting them the ball, they are certainly going to look much worse than they actually are.

I'm not one of those people trying to lay all of the blame on Baker for this season. But I'm also not one that is going to blame others for his obvious shortcomings. And that's one of them.

I think it's highly unlikely we'll be able to lose, or even demote Hooper. I think it's unlikely we'll hang on to Njoku. I think our TE group is super weak.

That said, I think both our TE and WR groups, as they are, probably run circles around what he'll have to work with if he returns to Houston. I think it's tough to tell what he WOULDN'T do to have our Oline and RB group.

Within the confines of the hypothetical situation of bringing Watson to Cleveland, we have to force ourselves to get comfy with the team we have in place. Bringing Watson here won't be easy, and will require lots and lots of draft capital. No massive overhauls (via draft) will be happening in the next 2+ offseasons.

You better check your facts. The Vikings do not run the same type of offense. They almost never run a 3-TE set. Currently Cousins has had 539 total pass attempts and 3,971 yards passing while Mayfield has had 418 attempts for 3,010 yards. That's 121 more attempts for Cousins than Mayfield and 961 more yards passing for Cousins. Rushing wise, the Vikings are currently 15th in rushing with 1826 rush yards compared to the Browns being 5th with 2,226 rush yards.

However, in 2019 when Stefanski was at Minnesota, the Vikings were 6th in rushing with 2,133 yards and the Browns were 13th with 1,901 yards. Passing though shows Mayfield with 534 attempts pre Stefanski for 3,827 yards while Cousins only had 444 attempts for 3,603 yards. That means Mayfield had 90 more attempts for 224 more yards than Cousins in 2019 or pre Stefanski. In 2019, the Vikings had Diggs, Theilen, and Rudolph which I would say was every bit as good as the 3 they currently have. The difference is there's more passing opportunities in 2021 than there was in 2019 under Stefanski.

I'm not disputing the fact that Mayfield had some issues to work on following the 2019 season. What I am saying is that rather than build an offense to his skill set and fix the techniques making him more accurate, Stefanski installed a scheme that all but eliminated the explosiveness of the WR position, installed a 3-TE set to run the ball and made Baker a game manager rather than the gunslinging Heisman Trophy winner the Browns drafted #1. He did the exact same thing in Minnesota causing Diggs and Rudolph to bolt and he's doing it here in Cleveland.

The difference between the Browns and other 2021 NFL teams - the other team's scheme to the strengths of their skilled players. I don't see Baltimore telling Jackson he can't run. Nor are they doing that with Hurt in PHI. CIN isn't telling Burrows to hand the ball off to Mixon because he has 1,200 yards rushing and ignore Chase, Higgins and Boyd. ARI built their entire offense around Murray. The point is the Browns just wasted 2-years of Mayfield's development by trying to make him into a type QB he is not. Now we are in a do or die year not knowing anymore about our supposed franchise QB than we did in 2019. IMHO that's problematic and clearly exposes the weakness of the head coach.

Does Cousins have a torn labrum? I didn't think so. You can't run the exact same offense you would with a healthy QB.

It has nothing to do with forgiveness. I can do that with nearly anybody for nearly anything.

For me it is all about his availability. If he goes to jail he can't play, and if he is suspended, he can't play. Tell me he can on both of those counts and I am with you, Bubba.

What's really sad is that in that 2017 draft Hue called Deshaun and told him we were going to take him then for whatever reason we didn't. We passed on Big Ben in '04 and DW in '17. We've deserved what we've gotten with poor decisions like that and those weren't the only ones as we all know.

Ditto, but if you don't see a trend with Stefanski you're blind - the players obviously see it! This off season will expose it even more.

We'll see. I see some problems on several fronts and some of the play calling by Stefanski being one of them. Not as often as some others, but there is a problem at times.

I was simply showing how a part of your comparison really doesn't hold water because of the circumstances.

Looks like Baker wife is in here posting with several alias..

It must be, I cannot think of another explanation.

Are they though? Compare the 2019 Vikings to the 2020 Browns, both with Stefanski calling the plays..

Vikings top 4 WRs (Diggs, Thielen, Johnson, Treadwell - counting missed games, these 4 played in 54 games)
133 receptions for 2026 yards and 16 TDs
Cousins played in 15 games
444 attempts (69.1% completions) for 3603 yards, 26 TDs and 6 INTs


Browns top 5 WRs (Landry, Higgins, Beckham, Peoples-Jones, Hodge - counting missed games, these 5 played in 56 games)
157 receptions for 2242 yards and 12 TDs
Mayfield played in 16 games
486 attempts (62.8% completions) for 3563 yards, 26 TDs, and 8 INTs

It's a limited sample but... it's almost like those are the numbers the offensive scheme is designed to get...

Don't forget that we passed on Aaron Rodgers at a time when we were cycling through Jeff Garcia, Trent Dilfer, and Charlie Frye...

I hope that makes you feel better.

And 23 other teams passed on Rodgers as well.

for those of you who want Watson... sounds like he will get convicted of a bunch of stuff. which likely end his career in the NFL


https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/sports/football/deshaun-watson-accusers-police-reports.html


Buzbee now represents 22 women who have sued Watson.

In addition to the 10 women who have spoken to Houston police, the F.B.I. is investigating the case, according to Buzbee and Watson’s attorney, Rusty Hardin. Watson has spoken to the F.B.I., and Hardin has said agents are investigating one of Buzbee’s clients for extortion, while Buzbee has said they are investigating Watson’s conduct.

Last month, a Houston television station reported that a grand jury had been convened in the case. Under Texas law, every potential felony charge goes before a grand jury.

In an interview earlier this week, Hardin said, “Every single week we are finding out more that makes us increasingly more comfortable that none of these cases will lead to valid criminal charges.”


https://torotimes.com/2022/01/05/deshaun-watson-deposition/

Deshaun Watson‘s situation is well-known to everyone in the sports world right now. Facing 22 civil sexual misconduct and assault lawsuits, the world has been waiting until the day he is due in a legal office/building. That date is quickly approaching, barring any delays. The date of Watson’s deposition is February 22nd.



Unless 22 settlements happen (which at one point Watson had 18 of them ready to settle), then Watson’s court date for a trial would be set for May 2nd of this year, as Sean Pendergast of the Houston Press wrote in an article last May.

Uhhh... the article you copy pasted kinda make it sound like things are looking to go in his favor.

Yes, but I bet you haven't played football before.

What does that have to do with reading an article about Watson's legal stuff progressing?

That went over your head, and I don't have a lot of interest in explaining. Kind of surprising since you have commented on my posting habits from over a year ago.

j/c -

Does everyone see now how toxic poor QB play is? Why I am so critical? Then you mix poor QB play with mental insecurity, and you have a bomb.

In a single year, this is what poor QB play has gotten the Browns -

1. Stefanski went from COTY to people wondering if he is any good.
2. The skill position players went from top 5 in the league to bottom 5.
3. The Haslams went from staying away from football stuff to meddling (speculation).
4. The number one receiver wanted off the team.
5. The camaraderie that the team enjoyed last year is gone. Players are picking sides.
6. The OL got worse at run blocking.
7. Losing season.
8. No playoffs.
9. Complete and utter dysfunction.

Mayfield is thin skinned and not very good. This is the root of the Browns issues. If they had better QB play, the Browns would have won more games, been in the playoffs, and none of this other stuff would have happened.

The NFL is all about the QB.

Does anyone think Matt LaFleur is actually a good coach? Think about this for a second. I think he's the winningest coach in his first three years. We all know the reason why.

Ok....

Well, since I comment on your posting habits...

Half the stuff on your list doesn't have anything to do with Baker.

1. People are questioning Stefanski's coaching chops because he's done stuff like leave a rookie 4th rounder 1-1 with the NFL sack leader and didn't adjust.
2. Injuries and departures did that.
3. Has Haslam even said anything lately?
4. This might be true
5. Also might be true
6. While Baker not playing well makes their job harder, it doesn't make their run-blocking worse. Injuries do that, though.
7, 8. Injuries the other previously mentioned things do this as well.
9. Is there dysfunction [sic]? I don't think so, and I would think the last couple decades would help us know disfunction when we see it.


It's gonna bug me not getting the joke between the update to Watson's legal issues and me not playing football.

John Paul Football has chimed in...

The Watson situation will be interesting to follow.

You are presumed innocent. Before all this he was in good standing within the community. Personally I don't know a thing about his leagl case.

He has said nothing. He has not been charged. From what little I have read there was no violence involved.

Just a guess. He will settle. He will play again for some other team.

Antonio Brown bought a false vaccine card. That was a crime. The NFL imposed all these protocol restrictions. People were on lists and could not play.
Look at all that went into sterilizing facilities. What the guys who decided not to get vaccinated had to go through.

And nothing happened to this yo yo?

The NFL is hypocritical.

Watson is a good quarterback. I highly doubt that much will happen to him.

If they didn't suspend Brown? Then why would they suspend Watson?

If he settles these cases and he not charged with a felony. He will play next year.

The Browns and Watson who knows? He does have a no trade clause. Would Berry go after him? Would he play for the Browns?

No way of knowing any of that.

Re-organized your post to show you that you answered your own question


If they didn't suspend Brown? Then why would they suspend Watson?

The NFL is hypocritical.

As for being presumed innocent... that is in a court of law, not the court of public opinion, and certainly not in the NFL.

The NFL has precedent that they will suspend you even if the case does not go to court.

While AB should have been suspended for the fake vaccination card, covid vaccine mandates are a controversial topic in this country. Any kind of misbehavior agaist a female is currently a hot button topic.

I wish I had an answer.

IMO a lot will depend on what happens in court.

Once there is a decision there; then the NFL will do whatever.

I think back on watching Watson in college. He was not the most accurate thrower. But when it came time to win a game. The dude came through.

It did not matter the stage. He was a baller in crunch time.

It is a trait that I pay attention to. It is my main gripe with Baker.

For me all the Baker talk one way or the other makes me ill. I want to get way way past a quarterback controversy.

I want to win and quarterbacks play a big role in winning. I want a solution. I like Baker. I like his grit. I want him to be good.

However, I want to win more than anything. I don't envy Berry this off season. Well sure I would like his job. But he has many hard decisions to make.

Right now next years roster looks foggy. The injury to Conklin is important. I hope he can return 100%. He is a key player on the OL.
Wills really needs to improve. Not sure what we will do with Tretter?

Jarvis can not be paid $14.3. If he does not take way less. He will be gone.

Hooper is due $9.5 for the next two years. He must be traded. I would try to get a tackle for him.
Njoku is UFA. I would try to sign him for around $15 for three years.

Clowney will get an offer from Berry. He may want to play where it is warm. Myles hinted at that.

Lots of stuff will happen.

Brown was suspended for 3 games.

If ever there were an expert on what a dumpster fire is.......

Trent Dilfer was interviewed on local sports talk radio (92.3 The Fan, Carman & Lima) yesterday. He is not in agreement with Mayfield, Weeden, Kizer, or DA about Mary Kay. But he is also a big Baker fan, and he offers a way forward for Baker to salvage the relationship with the Browns and to flourish going forward. Its 24:50 long, but worth a listen, IMO.

https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/authors/the-ken-carman-show-with-anthony-lima

(Titled "Trent Dilfer: I hurt for Baker and I hurt for Cleveland")

Take this for what it is worth.

Listened to a podcast
https://www.cleveland.com/orange-an...go-orange-and-brown-talk-roundtable.html


Background:
The roundtable consisted of Dan Labbe, Mary Kay Cabot, Doug Lesmerisis, Scott Patko and Ashley Bastock. When they were talking about whether or not to bring some of the TE's back or not, one of them said about one of the TE's (don't remember which one) that he just didn't click with Baker, So if we bring Baker back they wouldn't bring that TE back.

Point:
Then Mary Kay said something along the lines of... I think most of us here don't think Baker will be the Browns Qb next season.
None objected to the validity of that statement.

Again, take it for what it is worth, but outside of the team, these are the folks with the most informed opinions on this topic.

I'm not so sure they have "the most informed opinion" or not. What I do know is that creating controversy is in the best interest of their careers.

I would agree with that statement, but if you listen to the podcast it doesn't come across that way. It seemed to be something that just slipped out. Once said, the roundtable just glossed over it. Very different than later on when MKC tosses out a comment about the possibility that the Browns trade for Jimmy G. They made a big deal about her making that comment. The whole thing seemed contrived to stir things up. The comment I am referring to didn't have that feel.

Again, take it FWIW.

Well, to be honest, I don't think Aaron Rodgers, Russel Wilson, Tom Brady know who MKC is, so I wouldn't expect any non-former Brown to respond.

They should be more informed than us that is their job.

But none of them are being informed about what Berry will do or what he believes.

Berry makes the roster and contract decisions.

He knows the coaches and what goes on in practice and behind the scenes.

So we don't know much. We watch the games and read all we can find.

The whole Baker evaluation is difficult. It is far from black and white which many posters try to make it.

Here are the stats and that tells you all that is needed to know. It is not that simple.

Right now I have no clue to what Berry will do. He has access to way more information than I.

Is Russell Wilson available? Would he play in Cleveland?

Is Deshaun Watson available? Would he play in Cleveland? Will Watson be available at all? He may have more information than we do.

What does Stefanski really think of Baker? Does he believe he can win a Super Bowl with him? We can speculate. Berry can ask Stefanski for an honest answer.

Right now I would not speculate because I don't have a clue.

you are "presumed innocent" only in the court of law

At work, in the NFL, within your community, on social media, you are canceled or fired based on their opinions.


Let's not forget the Texans refused to play him (when he is in his prime) and still paid him to be on the roster. That's how guilty they think he is.

Agree with your post. I didn't mean to imply that they had knowledge of what Berry was planning. Just that they have more information that we do. I am sure they have some insider information from some players and a few interns but more importantly they have a true feel for the atmosphere in the building. And I feel this gives them an advantage over us when it comes to tryin gto predict what the Browns will do. And she used the term most not all which means to me 3 or 4 of the 5. So clearly nothing definitive.

Maybe it struck me as more significant than it does anyone else because prior to that I felt there was an 80-90% chance that Baker would be our Qb next year. But hearing that comment gave me pause and the feeling that I need to readjust that opinion.

Before the crap hit the fan Watson said he would not play for Houston.

He was prepared to hold out all year. Watson was at war with the GM.

We all want to know.

I just had a long talk with my son about the Browns. Both him and has wife are huge fans. They are both on the Browns radio show quite often.
My sons wife is a singer and they have done some favors for the radio hosts.

Anyway we had a long talk. Mostly about what will Berry do?

To net it out. Berry has some tough choices.

I am sure this off season that there will be some surprises.

I have tried hard to be very objective and to look at this with a cold calculating eye. It still is complicated.

Very tough decision indeed.

I can certainly see the logic behind sticking with Baker for another year. He has had some success though inconsistent. He was injured much of this year. Let's give it another year.

I can also see the reasoning behind moving on. He has been inconsistent. He hasn't lead us to many late game come from behind victories. He doesn't seem to have a great connection to any of our Wr's other than Higgins (who cannot get on the field). His personality seems to rub people the wrong way (seems, purely subjective). One of those people seems to be Stefanski (again purely subjective). Baker doesn't seem happy here. More importantly, his wife doesn't seem happy here (again both purely subjective).

The issue with getting rid of Baker is who replaces him?

Who could be available that would be a clear upgrade?
Rodgers, Wilson, Watson.
I think Rodgers and Wilson are a pipe dream. Watson is viable but even if no charges or suspension, do we really want all that drama?
And what would the cost be to trade for him? Plus, doesn't he have a no trade clause?

Who would be a lateral move talent wise but perhaps a better scheme fit?
Garoppolo - feels like a lateral move

Who are the reclamation projects?
Marriota and Trubisky
Trubisky just spent a year as a backup in KC, perhaps that time with Andy Reid really helped. And we see now that the coaching staff in Chicago.
But do we really want to risk it? Do we think either of these 2 are more likely to thrive next year than Baker?

And this draft seems to be extraordinarily weak at Qb.


Did I miss any options?

How about trading Baker to the Dallas for Dak with possibly some picks or other players involved? We've traded with them before on draft day. Just a little speculating on my part.

I don't think you really missed anything. What I saw last year is that if Baker is healthy, he combined with Stefanski can take us to the playoffs. Once you make the playoffs anything can happen. I don't think you simply scrap that based on an injury plagued season.

Where I do see a disconnect, at least for me, is that when and if our FO and coaching staff agree that Baker can not lead us to where they want to be, who you see or don't see as an upgrade is of little consequence. If that's the way they start seeing Baker, refusing to take a stab at improvement rather than perpetuate continuing in mediocrity doesn't appear to be a logical option in my POV.

I don't think most all of us want to see a compete reboot at QB when we made the playoffs just last year with the QB we have. For me that would show a total lack of patience by this FO.

Why would Dallas ever do that? Dak is probably a top fiveish QB.

Trubisky is the backup in Buffalo, not KC.

Really? Dang. My bad, thanks for the correction.
So instead of a year with Andy Reid, he got a year with Brian Daboll - not quite the same.


As an addendum to the original post, to be complete we should probably list Drew Locke and Teddy Bridgewater
I don't think either would be an upgrade over Baker. I don't think KS would want Locke but might like Bridgewater

Dak has had some good #'s and he is a talent but I believe this is his 6th year and really hasn't led the Cowboys too much of anything. He has come under criticism by many in the media too. I'm not saying they would make a trade for him but he has had talent around him. He should have won more by now. JMO

They might consider a Prescott for Mayfield trade if we throw in Myles Garrett and a couple #1 draft picks.

I think there still would be a seven second moment of silence, followed by raucous laughter at the Browns.

Other way around.... Watson refused to play... Texans kept him on the roster because they know they can get something in a trade eventually.... but Watson said last year he was never playing for the Texans again and that was before his legal issues

Watson would be a dream come true. We have never had a QB of his talent.

That's incorrect. Mayfield is better than him today, Couch was a better QB than Watson is today, Watson had a short span but now he is a non entity.

Did Jarvis Landry just give up or give up on making great plays.

Was this Jarvis Landry's worst year of his career because he didn't show up all season long.
Is Landry just not very good.

Yeah I wonder if Dak could even put up half the numbers throwing to the Cleveland misfit receivers vs the all star cast he has there. Oline is better in Dallas, way better with the injuries in Cleveland. Zek is at least as good as Chubb and stays healthy more. Dallas plays wide open with a great mine offensive coordinator kellen Moore versus the plodding pathetic stefanski offense.

No qb wants to come play for stefanski.

This is hilarious.

**Aaron Rodgers said he wanted to be traded too.

Watson was on the non-active roster. If he held out... he wouldn't have shown up to work at all. He still attends meetings. Houston decided to bench him.

This is all immaterial; Watson, Wilson and I believe Rodgers all have no trade clauses in their contracts. Whether you want to believe it or not, no top tier QB is going to agree to come to Cleveland with the quality of our WR group, the scheme that Stefanski runs, or to throw 30% less passes than the top tier QB's throw or that they normally throw. Those top tier QB's have an ego that allows them to think they should be throwing on every play and the wins go directly through them. Those guys want and expect the offense to be built not only to their skill set but to the players in the skill positions. Stefanski has shown me through his actions that he's either incapable or just basically refuses to adjust his scheme to the situation or his skilled players.

As far as Cousins goes, he's averaging over a 100 more attempts per season since Stefanski left and has Cook, Conklin, Theilen, and Jefferson at the skill positions. He's more than likely getting a new head coach in Minnesota since it's looking like the Vikings have seen enough of Stefanski's mentor. Where's the upside for Cousin's to come to Cleveland? Cousins' $35 million 2022 base salary in the final year of the contract was guaranteed for injury at signing. The $35 million became fully guaranteed this past March 19 on the third day of the 2021 league year. Cousins has the NFL's third-largest 2022 salary cap number at $45,166,668. You think the Browns are going to dump Baker for Cousins contract? Ha ha ha!

Jimmy G, Trubisky, or any of the other retreads that are being mentioned - where's the upside? The 49ers are doing everything they can to sub plant Jimmy G, why? Trubisky, this doesn't even warrant consideration and is freaking a sad state of affairs to anyone thinking that this guy would be an upgrade. To that point, if the Browns are just looking for a body that will silently run Stefanski's scheme and provide no upgrade why don't we just go out and get Darnold, Hill, Brissett, Jones, Cam Newton, Siemian, Glennon, or maybe Lock. These guys are also retread or soon to be retread able body QB's that provide no upside to the Browns.

I guess the question is when the Browns cut bait with Mayfield as many hope and the cheers subside, who's the scapegoat next January when that experiment fails? Then it's rebuild 23.0........................

Call it whatever you want, but I believe Pelissero (and a long list of others), before MKC.

It is all about options.

There are none. It is also reported today that Wilson is not going anywhere.

No way Rodgers comes here. He is on target to win the MVP and maybe a Super Bowl. If he decides to continue to play it will be in GB.

Baker is under contract for 2022.

Watson? That is unclear so you have to plan like that.

Finally, all the BS about Stefanski conspiring to get rid of Baker is absurd.

At the same time I seriously doubt that he gets a extension anytime soon. That decision appropriately will come after the season.

So now this off season is about improving the team through free agency and the draft.

As we saw with OBJ, if the situation really is THAT bad, then the FO will address it. It's not, so they won't. IPSO facto, MKC is trash.


He has absolutely NOT earned an extension. It'll come down to next year.

Did he earn the extension though the last half of last year?

Watson wasn't playing for the Texans... believe what you want, but he wasn't playing for them this year...

I like Baker and hope he heals up and does well for us next year. That being said, I was wondering what anyone thinks of signing Mitch Trubisky as a FA. He has the size and a good arm. Chicago is much like us as far as QB's go and he had a rough time there. Does anyone think that if it's more of the same with Baker, and I hope it's not, that MT would be a good backup plan ?

Its entirely possible what Mary Kay reported originally was true according to her source, which may or may not have been a team source. It could just as easily have been his agent trying to manipulate the situation towards a resolution, however temporary it may be.

Tuesday, Jan 5, 2022, 7:09PM




Sunday, Jan 9, 2022, 8:21AM

Teams can say whatever they want on January 10th, it doesn’t mean much. If the Chargers call and offer us Herbert for Baker then we won’t be moving forward with Baker. If we fall in love with a rookie and he falls to us in the draft we won’t be moving forward with Baker. If someone calls and offers three first round picks for Baker we won’t be moving forward with Baker.

I keep going back and forth in my head about whether keeping Baker is the right move. Right now I think he can’t find open receivers and we need to move one from him if there is a clear upgrade available to us at a reasonable price. I don’t think that will be available to us. So, begrudgingly, I think we should keep Baker.

In the end I trust Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski to make the most logical choice for the team.

I agree with this. The situation is fluid.

Baker was never offered a long term deal. Thats you have to know.
2022 is a prove it year for Baker. If he plays well he will get offered a long term.deal
If he plays average and continues to be turnover king 2022 is his last year
As a Brown.
John Dorsey wet his pants. He couldnt wait to call Mayfield "buddy boy" on draft day
If Berry was GM then he probally drafts Josh Allen

Obviously not...?

Hitching your wagon to a QB requires more than a good half season. We've seen too much good Baker to move on, and too much bad Baker to give him a 2nd contract.

I didn't post that question implying that he DID earn the contract extension after the last half of last year...but I'd bet that he and his camp believed-so.

looking at the piscs it's another pass that gets batted down ! It's almost like watching a volley ball game

So assuming that Baker is the guy going forward, as it should be, then what are the plans to upgrade this team for 2022. At TE the assumption is we are weak yet the Browns or Stefanski hasn't done anything to build to their skill sets. If you think it's Njoku, how do you sign him to a contract for over 6 million per year for a resume that shows 146 receptions and 15 TD's in 5-years? If you think it's Hooper, comparing him to Njoku's performance, how do you explain paying Hooper 13.25 million in 2022 when you've cut his targets from 185 targets and 146 receptions for 1,387 yards and 2-Pro Bowl appearances in 2018-2019 to 131 targets (21.1% reduction), 84 receptions (42.5% reduction) and 780 yards (43.8% reduction) during 2020-2021? He's obviously shown that he's a receiving threat at TE - WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?

At WR, OBJ is gone under similar circumstances that resulted in Diggs demanding out of Minnesota when Stefanski was the OC there. Landry is scheduled to be paid about 16.6 million in 2022. His level of production has dropped from 287 targets in 2018-2019 with 164 receptions and 2,150 yards and 2-Pro Bowl nods to 180 targets (37.3% reduction) 118 receptions (28.0% reduction) and 1,335 yards (37.9% reduction) and zero Pro Bowls in 2020-2021.

At QB, Baker was in the bottom 30% of the league in attempts and yardage in 2021 and it is the second straight year of reduced attempts and yardage since 2019.

If the Browns or fans for that fact are thinking this can be corrected next year with the addition of FA WR's, you have to share some of that good stuff you're smoking. No player in his right mind would sign on with the Browns current structure after seeing Stefanski's scheme in action and what it did to what many considered the best WR/TE group entering 2020 with a year 3 up and coming QB. The Browns might be playing 4-TE sets next year due to the lack of skill players at the WR position unless there some change quick.

Now I'm worried we will be looking for a QB.

We made the playoffs with an 11-5 record last year. So are you trying to indicate the strategy used to accomplish that was wrong? Baker had a torn labrum since week 2, so are you suggesting he should have been passing more this season?


I would rather have some of what you are smoking.

In case anyone hadn't noticed, Josh Allen put up a whopping 17.0 QBR against the Falcons last week on 11 for 26 and 3 interceptions
The Falcons have the 28th rated pass defense this year

Just saying

I just want a QB that can lead a 4th quarter comeback once in awhile.

Too bad it looks like Derek Carr is unavailable.

Derek Carr is the only QB in the history of the NFL to simultaneously suck and have a number of 4th quarter comebacks to his name.

I personally think Carr is awful.

I agree carr is awful but, he is good numbers are good through volume.

oh Look Landry and Bake are chatting it up on the sideline.

The media needs is terrible in cle

When one of The Anointed has a bad game we don't talk about it. If you read the boards, you should know that only Baker makes bad throws, misses open receivers or has games where he sucks. To suggest otherwise will be labelled as making excuses for Baker and blaming everyone else for his poor play. Huntley recently joined the list of The Anointed so if he loses today, we can't mention that either. . . . . . . I kid, but there is a grain of truth there.

This tells me that people keep missing the point. Everyone has bad games and stats, but the two questions for me are...1) is it consistent and 2) do they also make game winning plays.

Baker is consistently bad and makes nearly zero game winning plays. I believe he's the worst quarterback over the last 4 years in leading game tying/winning drives.

Josh Allen is in the playoffs for the third year in a row and playing for the division today.

He's a much better quarterback than Baker. Take the stats away. What do your eyes tell you?

Better yet. Find 20 NFL fans that you know who are not Browns fans and ask them. I'll bet you $100 it's 20 for 20.

Completely agree on all fronts.

If they truly believe this, then I trust their judgement and the injury is a huge factor in their decision making to run with him. If they don't really believe this, of course they need to play the PR game and state this upfront. If a better option becomes available (small chances considering the options) then they can always spin the story here as well. If one doesn't, this report, this early, has the perception of them being on board from Week 18.

I go back and forth too. At times I think it best to look for another option. Other times, I cannot dismiss what good years he's had and chalk up this year solely due to the injury. To a degree, I think the FO feels this way just with more data and internal info we're clearly not privy to.

However, it tough to dismiss the problems that have nothing to do with his injuries.....lack of vision, primarily.

Berry and Stefanski are in a rough spot.

100% agreed - Baker with a torn Labarum and broken bone and other injuries has definitely been consistently bad. I think we all think he needs to play significantly better than this year. At the same time I also believe it is common for Baker's individual throws/plays to be examined at a level and picked apart and the inference and common statements akin to " Real NFL QB's never miss that throw" as if all other QB's always make that throw - when they absolutely don't, and no-one is breaking down Lamar, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Murray film on their bad throws and decisions.

My sincere hope is for Baker to come back next year and play to the level of the second half of 2020.

I would love to see a bunch of people eat crow with gravy on it. Not just some posters but a bunch of others now in the media.

If he plays that way this team will rise up with him. And that has always been my goal.

Do you think BM playing at 2020 level is good enough to win the superbowl? He was good in 2020, but not that good. If I remember correctly he almost lost the chance to go to the playoffs against the Jets and 4th quarter in Pitt. He was also not able to beat KC with a backup QB.

You are just giving to much credit to the guy, he was never our best player, not even top 5, nor was he ever a top 5 QB in the league.

Time to move on. Just imagine telling Chubb, Landry and Miles, that Baker will be our QB again....

Sure, lets just waste the best team we had in decades because of a player...

And oddly enough just a blown call from eliminating the team that did go to the Super Bowl from the playoffs.