DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Off-season Baker Mayfield

32/32 teams take Joe Burrow over Baker Mayfield.

Wrong ! the Browns wouldn't ! Ask Ben if you don't believe me, Winslow jr will testify to it also !


Baker might argue that.. But he has Brandon Weedon, Kizer and Johnny the swan ridding Manziel on his side...

That’s more than simply fair comment. I am a fan, still have faith, but If he isn’t cutting it next season, time to cut bait. I don’t want to have to look for another QB so I want him to hammer it, but if he doesn’t, we gotta look for another guy.

You aren't saying anything most don't know, but you fail to mention the "who"?

That then brings up the next sticking point. Of all positions, you only have 2 QB's on the team. If you are expecting a seamless transfer at the QB position, how much can you pay the guy? It seems to me if you bring in a really good QB, you run the risk of having 2 unhappy qbs on the roster.

Here is the deal with baker I haven't seen discussed. We know he walked on at Oklahoma after walking on at Texas Tech., winning the starting job at both.

Why did he walk away from Texas Tech? Something made him unhappy. We know he is unhappy here, at this moment anyway. Let's say he comes back next year, lights it up, then decides he doesn't want to sign. What do we do then, keep playing him under a franchise tag? That's not the way to go about business.

My feeling is we need to offer him a 4 year deal next week and see where he stands on that. That will go a long way towards forcing his hand. We then also draft a QB early, giving us the ability to move on from baker in a couple of years if needed with a guy in the wings. If baker balls out, we have a trade chip waiting in the drafted guy.

I think Berry and crew have to play two opposing hands to prepare for any situation to come.

Lamar and Burrow are fighting for #1 in the North.

big ben is 3rd.

baker is 4th.

other than big ben, if GMs were to have a redraft of the QB's this season, everyone on this board know lamar and burrow are going before baker. to pretend otherwise is sad.

baker beating burrow head to head would matter more if we paired that with a division crown. you think burrow and the bengals care about being swept by us right now? Burrow is getting ready for a home playoff game in his 2nd season, something mayfield hasn't accomplished in his 4th. lamar has 2 division crowns already.

and lets not forget, DT. we got SWEPT by an old ass big ben this season. there's not a situation where baker can be considered anywhere near the top of our division. it only gets worse if you include the entire AFC.

as i said before, if we roll with him next season, fine. everyone gets a fresh start when the season begins, after all. but he's gonna be completely healthy next season. burrow came off an acl tear and won the division. lamar got hurt in the pocket on a freak roll up on the ankle.

and big ben is in the playoffs AGAIN.

we've been having concerns about his lack of discipline regarding mechanics well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise. we've been having concerns about his inability to read a defense well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise. he's been leading the league in batted passes and picks well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise.

lamar, burrow, and big ben have been able to put the team on their backs and go win football games. baker mayfield has done that 2 times in 14 tries. a QB who only succeeds when everything around him is perfect is not an elite QB. he's a kirk cousins, teddy bridgewater, or a jared goff.

and last time i checked, those guys aren't considered the best QB's in their own divisions either.

yall see what ryan tannehill was able to do with King Henry gone half the season? thats what baker mayfield should've done with nick chubb and kareem hurt. that didn't happen.

I don't agree with that - offering him a 4 year deal next week.... I think that's premature. What level is your offer at ? Does it reflect his bad season and you low ball him? Do you offer him a deal based on peak performance - that would be risky. Somewhere in the middle and it might be lower than BM wants and higher risk than Berry is willing. I think sitting down with him and his agent - finding out what he sees/feels would be good: If we were to sign a new contract where would you see it being? Do you prefer to play well in your 5th year before signing a new contract? To elevate your play - other than being healthy, what do you see as being key areas to address. . . . We can't promise to address everything, but if we want to put the QB in the best position to succeed, get some input, have some dialogue. Keep him up to date with thoughts and offensive skill position options and targets.

Offering him his fair market value right now isn't going to help ANYTHING, particularly his ego, if that's what we're worried about. If the FO wasn't confident in their estimation of his true value after last season, they're even less so now. If Baker wasn't happy with the $$$s, then he'd be even less so now.

Baker is going to do what Baker has always done regarding his contract. Bet on himself. I just hope that he's taken further steps to realizing his shortcomings and try to address them.

So you actually think NFL agents won't comprehend why an Injured Baker threw less passes this year? Really? Or are you suggesting an injured Baker should have been throwing more?

There are two significant problems with offering Baker a contract next week and these aren't a one way street.

First, from the Browns side of things I don't think they have the confidence in Baker at this stage to do that. If they chose to pick up the fifth year option back in April rather than negotiate a long term deal with him, there has certainly been nothing that has happened since then that would instill confidence in them from that time until now. I don't believe there's any question that they feel the need to see a healthy Baker before they decide on a long term commitment.

From Bakers side of things it's obvious. NFL players are no more than a human version of stocks you buy in the stock market from strictly a money standpoint. Their values fluctuate greatly depending on the latest reports. Bakers latest report is very ugly. Bakers stock and current value has never been lower. No agent or lawyer hired by Baker would entertain the idea of entering into long term contract talks right now. If they would, he needs a new agent and lawyer. You don't start negotiations from a side of weakness.

Neither Baker nor the Browns can possibly see an advantage to current contract negotiations. The Browns don't know what they have in Baker and Baker wouldn't be smart negotiating based on what his current value is worth. It's a lose/lose proposition for both sides.

One thing is obvious. Baker believes in himself and if he didn't he would never have made it to be a #1 draft pick. Anyone in his position has to know that with a healthy season under his belt his value will certainly increase from where it is now. How much it will increase will depend on his play. But a healthy Baker is certainly much better than what we've seen this past season. He not only has to consider what that increased value may garner him from a contract with the Browns, but also the other 31 teams in the league. Because just like the rest of us, you never know how this thing will play out.

Questions for the board ... it seems like we saw a lot less of the play action-rollouts from Mayfield this year after seeing them be really successful in 2020. My question is did defenses take it away, or did we just stop using it as much? I do recall some instances when we tried it and it seemed like the defense had a DB or LB in Mayfield's grill almost immediately. If it was taken/schemed away, was there a counter-adjustment we could have tried?

I don't think he could rollout very well with his lower body injuries. Bakers not fast anyway and with those injuries he was even slower.

Prior to getting banged up, I thought Baker looked sneaky fast out there. To your point, he'll never be mistaken for a Lamar or a Kyler with the ball tucked, but early on I noticed his offseason prep did his body a TON of good.

That's the shame of it. If Baker didn't get hurt it may have been a great season. As it was, even with all our issues, we still could have easily won another 3 or 4 games. Instead, another disappointing season.

I was wondering if all the stacked boxes defenses were showing us made play action less useful.

Ok, let's talk a bit about a contract for Baker Mayfield.

For the Browns, certainly they have questions after a disappointing 2021. Now to be fair, the QB was injured in week 3 but still played. It can be argued whether he should have played or not but what cannot be argued is his attitude to play under whatever circumstance to help the team win. The team wants a tough QB yet now we want to complain because he is just that. The Browns like the good Baker but not so much the bad Baker. Is the QB we have the Baker of the last half of 2020 and the first 2 games of 2021 or the Baker we seen the majority of weeks 3-17? Baker is cheap comparatively speaking in 2022 so keeping him is a no brainer. So how do we make Mayfield successful in 2022? First, Baker has some mechanics to work on but foremost needs to get healthy. Are the Browns committed to making Baker successful? Do we have a QB Coach focused only on the QB's - NO! Do we have a good receiving group - NO! Is our team built toward what Baker does best - NO! If the 2020 Baker emerges, does that fix the offense or are there underlying issues ranging from personnel to coaching to play calling? Where's our biggest focus, offense or defense or how can it be balance while addressing both now? Finally, what's our plan going into 2022 for a good Baker or a bad Baker? What about 2023, with what will be a veteran team, do we start over with the QB or the Coach - which has the higher risk to 2023 and beyond? What is more detrimental to the team in 2022 - a show what you have done for me lately pressure on our franchise QB or win or be bounced pressure on the FO, Head Coach and his staff? Tough questions but those that must be answered and soon!

For Baker, I think some people need to see where he might be coming from. Baker was drafted by a team that had a 1-31 record the previous 2-years. As a rookie, he broke the TD record while starting only 13 games with 27 TD passes leading the team to a 6-7 record in his starts (5 more games won than the previous 2-years). Year 2, enter a new Head coach-staff-and scheme, yet expectations remain very high. Baker has a 6-10 record with 22 TD passes but his interception rate rises. This is cause for concern but Baker is playing at a level the Browns expected when drafting him but he needs to clean up some of the decision making product. Year 3 and enter another new Head Coach, staff and scheme again for Mayfield to adjust to. In 2020, there hasn't been a single QB in the NFL besides Baker that had been tasked with having 3 different Head Coaches in their first 3-years. Baker leads the Browns to a 11-5 record with their first playoff appearance in 18-years and first playoff win in 26-years. Baker still playing under his rookie deal is then not resigned to a new deal but had his 5th year option exercised giving him 18.5 million in year 5. Baker still hoping for a new deal is basically told 2021 is a prove it year. Now in 2021, there's a direct disparity between what Baker is allowed to do at QB compared to the other top QB's in the league under Stefanski's scheme. There were 22 QB's or 68.75% of the QB's had more passing attempts than Baker in 2021. To go a little further, 9 QB's had 150 or more attempts in 2021 than Mayfield did. 7 of the 9 made the playoffs with only Herbert and Lawrence failing. Only 1, Lawrence, had a losing record in 2021. 8 players had more interceptions than Baker including Burrows and Carr who some here have campaigned for as a replacement. Add to the fact that Baker played injured during weeks 3-17. Whether you want to accept that as a reason or an excuse is disputable - being injured isn't. Baker's WR group with promises of gander turned out to be one of the weakest in the NFL. The 3-TE sets crushed the explosiveness of the passing game with only 1 WR on the field and seriously damaged the promising run game by allowing defenses to play 8-9 in the box. Play calling was suspect, very predictable and game time coaching adjustments were nonexistent. With all that, Baker moved forward losing 6 games by 6 points or less playing in the run first offense. As if on cue, Baker is blamed for all the losses and zero glory for what's he does or the fact the team is finally competitive. So now Baker is being presented another show me year and if healthy will most likely be fine. But as a player, do you really want a future where the fans issue bodily threats for losses and the team doesn't support what you've done? When Baker came to Cleveland it was a cesspool of a team. 3 different times he's had to adjust and learn a new offense to the point that even now the team doesn't run a scheme that actually plays to the skill set strengths he was drafted for. Playing injured with a crappy WR group - weak ass TE's due to the sets they played - the #1 and #2 running backs missing significant time - and that's before we get to the o-line problems that had weekly isssues, yet Mayfield takes the heat. To the fans (and the team to a lesser extent) Mayfield is the problem and he needs to be replaced.

So now Baker is in another prove it year. The FO and Stefanski are on the edge also. The longer they wait to resign Baker the more pressure it's going to create for both parties. A good Baker is going to remember how the team and fans turned on him. A bad Baker will almost certainly deliver Berry and Stefanski walking papers. Some day we might see a FO and Coach that builds their team to the skill set of the QB. 2023 could be QB 32.0 since 1999 and Head Coach 13.0 without some drastic changes this off season.

After the 2020 season they chose to pick up the fifth year option rather than negotiate a long term contract with him. So I don't think his 2020 season is as good of an example as you think it might be. There's difference between having what many claim are not good WR's and WR's who get open. Our WR's were getting open. Now as for YAC and a few more drops you probably have a point. But if your QB isn't finding open WR's, what difference does it make which WR's are open be it average WR's or great WR's?

You are right about the offense not being built around our QB's strength in 2022. I mean since that QB was injured and really didn't have a strength to build around. Somebody needs to get on that. We should just rest the running game with one of the best RB' tandems in the NFL and focus on Baker. BTW. that last line was sarcasm in case you missed it.

Jake Burns’ breakdown of Baker’s season (free article):

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/LongFormArticle/baker-mayfield-2021-issues-179946380/

Defenses started scheming to take away the roll-outs and bootlegs. We ran the same amount of play action this year as last year (cfrs posted the info).

There was an article in The Athletic where a defense coordinator in the AFC stated the best way to defend Baker is to force him to stay in the pocket, because he can't see over the line. Just bat down his passes or he'll sail them. Teams adjusted to what the Browns did so well in the 9 game stretch last year.

Here is a great article with video explaining how defenses began taking away QB roll-outs and bootlegs.

https://readoptional.substack.com/p/how-nfl-defenses-are-evolving-to

Wow - there's a lot there. I read it and I feel like I need to read it again. It looks like Stefanski will need to counter-adjust, and/or Mayfield will need to be better from the pocket. Thanks for the link.

No problem. It's a great read. Mayfield being able to play from the pocket needs to happen in order for him and the team succeed.

Barf.

Aside from the immediate depression this caused, there were some important points to takeaway from the Jake Burns piece....


So, again, the question for Mayfield is how often can he get those mechanics right. He has to be insane about them. Brees was wired this way. Manning as well. Those who didn't have insane arm talent but made up for it with those repeatable mechanics (plus some other variables we will get to).

______


Tom House talked about this exact issue.

"(Losing confidence) is something that is not unusual. It happens in baseball, it happens in golf. It breaks your heart when you watch it going on because you can only do so much until they reach out. It usually takes a village to help these kids navigate the waters that they are in now."

In the past, Mayfield has declined the notion of needing a private quarterback coach or to rework his mechanics. Is Mayfield willing to reach out now given the issues we see? Is he willing to chase the help he needs this offseason to give him the hard truth about who he is as a quarterback? If he’s willing to swallow some of that ego and pride, he can resurface a quality quarterback, but the ball is in his court.

Man that was hard to watch.. I think any contract discussion starts and ends with Baker's willingness to work with a QB/mechanics coach

Milk you just reminded me of a tweet I saw a couple years ago about Brees.

Here’s the video from YouTube


[video:youtube][/video]

Browns with Joe would be in the playoffs.... I still think a healthy baker would have gotten us in as well... but Joe put up a better year this year than Baker has had any time in his career....

Joe-the-annointed would be absolute trash with our pass-catching "weapons".

He either throws the ball at-or-near the LOS for YAC (which we have no one who can maximize that) or chucks it deep like another Joe we knew (Flacco) and lets the talent make the play (talent we simply do not have).

Who is Jake Burns? Nfl qb coach? Nfl qb trainer? Nfl offensive coordinator? No? Oh he is a “ film analyst” …very authoritative

Ad hominem

No you are wrong.

Saying someone is not qualified when they aren’t is not attacking the person, it’s just a fact.

Post a video from someone qualified like Kurt Warner, who played qb in the nfl, he has a different qualified take.

What you do in hundreds of posts across dozens of threads is ad hominem.

So what in the article did you not agree with?

If their is difference of opinions in a "franchise"'QB , much like with Baker
Then he isnt really a franchise QB is he?

Are the Chiefs fans divided on Mahomes...How about Rodgers....are Packer fans torn
How about Burrow in Cincy, how many want him.replaced?
Do the Cards fans think Kyler Murray should be replaced?

The Baker fan club overlooks the fact that he is most turnover prone QB in the league

Bone I agree with your last 2 posts. Trubisky is someone we should look at. He had some sucess in Chicago which is another place that chews up QB's like we do here. He's still young and if he gets the right coaches to work with him he could become a good QB. That's all he would have to be here; good enough. WE would have to upgrade our WR's but we know that. I like Jimmy G. even better but he's injured too much plus it would cost us too much in compensation We've see what can happen with an injured QB. We have a tough, physical division so I feel you can almost count on JG getting hurt here as much as I hate to say it. My opinion on the subject; get Baker healthy and roll with him another year and see how he does and I hope he does well because I like him and want the best for our Browns. Sign Trubisky as a backup and let him learn the O. If things don't work out with Baker you have a guy ready, hopefully, to step in that can play. JMO

To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.

I think people spend time looking at a player ceiling...which is fine, but you can't ignore the floor.

I don't care all that much about Baker battling. Who doesn't? He still didn't play well this year. That is on him. If he says he is good to go, then I expect him good to go.

He has played 4 years, and 2 of them are less that what we should expect. After all the spin, that is how it is.

One could almost argue the floor is more important than the ceiling.

So he can't find open WR's either?

Question - we all know PFF, they watch each player, every position, on every play and grade them to their criteria. They are used by many or all the scouting departments for teams in the NFL. So do we trust PFF and their grades on players - including Baker and including the WR.s TE's etc ..... or do we believe some online individual with a twitter account with a handful of random snapshots showing "open" WR ?

The reason I ask is because apparently it is not possible to believe in both as they contradict each other. I believe the highest rated WR on the Browns this year by PFF was DPJ. He ranked something like 63rd in the NFL. It is simply not possible that the WR's are running around open each play and then get graded so poorly by PFF.

So pick which you believe in - if it's not PFF, please be sure never to reference them in support of a player or debate in future. Imma gonna ride with PFF. I have in the past and will in the future, good, bad or indifferent as it relates to how I feel.

PFF is the site that says we have open receivers