DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Off-season Baker Mayfield

No - that's not what I said. But you have at it.

I love The Athletic and think they have quality reporting. It doesn't mean every article is right. I think the BBC is largely unbiased - but that doesn't mean that they don't get some stuff wrong. I think PFF grades are very reliable - they do sometimes give grades I wouldn't have given. As for this one article of theirs - I'd like to know more. I believe the idea that their are 3 open WR on 1/3 Browns plays is highly misleading. I say that because I watch the games. If you watch the games and believe we have 3 open receivers on 1/3 of our pass plays, then I would disagree. I'd like to see the foundation of that report and how they came up with those stats.

As I said before - a more useful stat would be what % of passes QB's complete when multiple receivers are open. Maybe Baker has 100% completion on those pass plays with 3 WR open? We don't know. Maybe Baker is last in the NFL when multiple WR are open. We don't know, though based on his performance this year it would not be a surprise.

I guess if the stat about 3 open WR is valid - I'd be interested to see a stat on % plays where no WR was open. It would not surprise if we were high on that list too. Our offense seemed like it was genius - or very bad- not a lot in between

It makes no difference how often this gets pointed out. People will still talk about bringing him here.

and/or Brandon Aiyuk and/or the best LT in the game, and/or the best pass catching H-back in the game...

His wife is some kind of pop star in her own right, so that would explain NY. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just posting what Wilson has reportedly told Seahawks FO.

I think I could be sold on Carr, Jones, and Tannehill, but ultimately think it's a wash talent-wise but I definitely prefer to keep Baker. For continuity sake and because Baker is way more entertaining and I think he'll be back to 2020 form next year if he's healthy.

The other's I'd take over Baker straight but, but it won't happen.

LFG Baker.

Hyperbole much? I know the facts don't align with what you believe, but feelings doesn't change that.

No, no t wasn't. It was based on pass plays only. You've become desperate.

They break down every play of every team and have the exact same criteria for every team and player. The same goes for open WR's. There's no way you can possibly claim you follow that same criteria to form your opinions or even breakdown the game film of all 32 teams.

Once again, not what I said. Stop with the strawman stuff and arguing against something I didn't say. Thanks. I'm allowed to have an opinion... if you don't like it or don't agree with it, it doesn't mean you can create something I didn't say to argue with me. Thanks. Next thing you'll be agreeing me that Baker played really very well at the beginning of this year in the first 2 games of the season, but you'll try to argue with me and post something different just because.

I watch every Browns game and do see receivers open. I also know that when fans resort to the "receivers aren't getting open" stage of explaining away poor QB play, that is a QB problem. Not only are there receivers open, he has a ton of time in the pocket. I was also claiming OBJ was open most of all games well before his dad's now infamous tweet.

And no, I don't have an agenda. I clearly state Baker is a bad QB. There is no suggestion, gray, innuendo, nothing. I don't write essays about my feelings, and I don't post articles/stats to back up my opinion. I'm not sure what constitutes an agenda, but I am being very clear when I state Baker is a very bad QB. He gives you almost no chance to win. He doesn't do one single thing well and doesn't have one single dominant physical trait. The best thing he had going for him, his confidence, now appears to be shot. If Baker were a cerebral player, he could probably make it work. He could offset his physical limitations by playing smart. But there is no indication at all that he is a cerebral player. None. If there is, please point it out to me.

Or better yet, answer these questions -

1. What does Baker do well?
2. What are Baker's dominant physical traits?
3. Instances when Baker has demonstrated playing at a high cerebral level?
4. Fourth quarter comebacks where Baker put the team on his shoulders?

The ultimate answer to all those questions will be "it is someone else's fault we can't find examples...multiple coaches, multiple coordinators, poor receivers, injured players, etc., etc., etc.". When all we have left is blaming others, that answers the question for you.

One thing that worries me about Baker, and maybe it is not fair, but I NEVER have confidence he is going to lead us to a come-from-behind win. That goes back to before this year. It seems like we have to get out to a lead and hang on by our fingernails or we're going to lose. Yet, there are teams we play where, if we are ahead, I have total confidence their guy is going to being them back. Seems like I am usually right about opponents, and always right about us on this aspect.
It is true he as never had a great receiver corps, and this problem could be more because of play calling than Baker. I'm trying to be fair, because I like a lot of things about him.

Some things are factual and some things are not. Claiming it doesn't make sense why we had the second most open WR's on pass plays flies in the face of facts. There is a difference in having an opinion and denial.

Now if you wished to debate WHY Baker missed so many open targets, that would be an opinion.

What I did was point out that you had no evidence to suggest that you were correct in this never ending claim that somehow PFF didn't make sense when they stated we had the second most WR's on pass plays. And you did nothing but come at me rather than defend your position. That speaks volumes.

So you didn't watch the Browns play this year. Ok - why didn't you say that?

There are rumblings Carr might be available, but I don't get the love he's receiving. He had some big years but I don't recall him ever getting back to that level.

Carr had a great 2020 season. He was not great this year, though he was pretty good and the team was a dumpster fire that somehow squeaked into the playoffs. He's a good leader and has a strong arm. He is 30, and for his career has 193 TDs and 85 picks. He might be better than you realize. Anyway, I think this team could be a 12-win team with him.

Oh I certainly did watch. But once again you're hinting that by you watching the games that tells you which WR's were open and which one's weren't. We all know that would be a lie. We only see the camera views of the play usually. Once in awhile they will show you open WR's that were missed. And they did.

Still, all you can do is come after me and not defend your position. Typical.

I certainly understand why though. If I were You I would try anything to avoid the facts as well.

I thought I add my two-cent to the debate.

For whatever reason, Baker has lost confidence in his receivers. As many have pointed out, he has the second-highest open receiver count. We all know Baker dealt with some serious injuries requiring surgery to fix.

What I've seen mostly this past season is Baker lost his swagger. Why?

My other question to those who would like to move on from Baker. What price are you willing to pay to replace Baker? It will be costly in draft picks and salary. It is easy to say go get Russell Wilson or whomever. Obviously, when they drafted Baker, there was a plan to build around Baker and a plan to manage the salary cap. How do you fix and realign the cap space?

When Berry let OBJ go, I was wondering what the fallout would be. Again, there was a plan in place to build the receiver group with OBJ being the Guy. The overall structure of the receiver group is skewed.

How does Berry fix it? Baker worked well when Landry was the focal point. This was before OBJ came. Landry is a good YAC receiver. If Berry is letting Landry go, you need that go-to receiver. Note also Higgins was the other receiver he relied on. In my opinion, Higgins could not get separation against a #1 corner. He actually struggled against the #2. His best work was when he was the third receiver. After that, Baker relied on Njoku. I also remember Baker worked well with Perryman during his rookie year. To fix things, Berry needs to add a veteran receiver to replace Perryman. Allow Schwartz to develop into that role as "Perryman" and draft depth. Bring in a guy like Lockett and keep Landry. Keep drafting YAC/possession and deep threat receivers.

The receiver room needs to evolve with the QB. It seems to me there is a lot of change and hard to build that trust factor.

I think the bigger question here is did Baker lose confidence in his WR's, the system or lose confidence in himself? It was obvious that the shoulder harness hampered his movement so I'm not sure what it was he lost confidence in. Some people might say his WR's. Some might say Stenfanski's system. Some might say with his inaccuracy he was questioning himself. I have no idea what it was he lost confidence in but he was certainly hesitating, double clutching and holding the ball quite a bit.

Pitt, I say all of the above. Baker's level of work went way down compared to the prior years.

I don't think the WR room is the main issue. I simply think it's a hodgepodge of talent and no cohesiveness. That is not to say the receivers are good or bad. The group overall has become disjointed. I'm not sure why. It could be the receiver coach. Landry did not play like his normal self and was the glue that kept it together. This really showed once OBJ left. What stood out was "fun" left the room.

Not at all.

Much like when you agreed Baker played well in the first two games in the year - but tried to argue with me when that was my position - it is YOU that seems hell bent on just picking fights randomly.

I have stated my opinion on why I question the "3WR on 37% of pass plays". You don't like it and now are trying to put words in my mouth I never said. It's happened time and again recently. No wonder I am a little tired of it.

Mmmmm hmmm. You think watching the games tells you what you need to know about how many open WR's there are on plays. It most certainly does not. They do not show you the all of the WR's on pass plays. Usually only the WR targeted. If that is your reasoning for questioning it, you have no reason. You would need all of the game tape to see it. I believe you know that. PFF breaks down all of the game tapes and bases FACTS based on those game tapes.

See - there you actually responded to what I wrote.

I disagree. The camera does not only show the targeted receiver. The commentators when they comment on coverage sacks and QB's throwing the ball away do not comment on only a targeted receiver. When i am at games I do not watch only the targeted receiver. If anyone watches the games and believes we are watching 3 WR open on more than 1/3 of our pass attempts - I would disagree. I would say I have watched many games where a 1/3 of the plays we get absolute minimal separation.

And once again with regards to PFF - they seem to have contradictory data. Because back to the WR grades - and they are all below average. No - they are flat bad. Landry was injured and came back too soon, I don't think his grade is fair. (another example of where I don't agree with the PFF grades and this is something I have mentioned before with Landry). Our next best - DPJ at what was it 63? Even if those grades are based on when they are targeted - it is inconsistent, virtually impossible that the receivers are all running great routes to get open more than any other team but then when Baker targets them - they all suddenly fall flat and wet the bed.

I think the idea that you can't watch a game on live broadcast or be at the game and get an idea of 3 receivers being open on a play is incorrect. Do you catch everything? No. Do you miss 3 receivers being open easily and consistently - no.

What about Jake Burns’ film studies showing open receivers all season long?

What about them? Did he break down every single play of each game? I missed that. I also didn't realize he had done studies on 3 receivers being open.

I don’t care to discuss this topic anymore with you because it seems like you are making excuses when all the information being presented you is somehow wrong.

I know it’s painful to think that Baker might not be the guy. We all care deeply for this team. The QB is the most important part of any NFL team. It is depressing to think that we might not have the guy we thought we did at this time last year. It all stinks.

That's funny. I gave you what I think many would consider a typical crfs reply and you do this. You are mixing up Baker playing badly (which is what Jake Burns has highlighted and which I do not refute) - and whether or not 3 receivers are running rampant and open on 37% of plays. Apparently you think Baker missing open receivers is some validation that 3 receivers are open. That is not the case. Sorry you don't like that fact.

It's not painful if Baker is not the guy - it'll suck because it'll mean the the Browns are back to a 20 year long search for a QB. But it's not an emotional attachment to Baker - it's a belief that you can't judge Baker on a year where he played 16 games with a torn Labarum and multiple other injuries along the way. Seeing you frame it like this, maybe it's your emotional response to the situation that won't let you accept that posters like me think Baker pretty much sucked donkey balls for 16 games this year, that he's injured, and that as well as Baker sucking - the TE's are Meh and the WR core is Meh. Those things aren't excuses - they are additional layers of issues for the Browns.

Apparently - because to have any other opinion than we need to replace Baker is not allowable.

It's interesting because I've thought this same thing. The funny part is that Tannehill's career was revived because he went to a system that was perfect for his skillset. The system is the same system we run right now.

cfrs15: The second coming of Versatile Dawg.

I know this isn't true because I haven't been suspended 72 times this week.

I'm with you. I watched only the first half of the Steelers game last night. Then off to bed. I'll watch some tonight, then to bed. (getting older, you know, and covid tired). Eh, just disappointed in the Browns year.

Do.you have proof that the Browns would go through another 20 QBs if they moved on.from Mayfield.
If you believe in Berry like you have the last 6 GMs then he should have no issues finding
A replacement for Baker.
You act like Baker has took.this team to multiple AFC Championship games.
Baker is a good QB if everything is in.working order.
But the Browns need greatness from.the QB position. Good aint good enough anymore.
Because the AFC North has 2-QBs ahead of him.

jc

You people are delusional if you think we will somehow aquire a QB better than Baker.

I think there are more QBs that are better than Baker Mayfield than you do.

Who said there arent better QBs? The point is that THEY WONT COME HERE.

Cleveland is a small market with a toxic fanbase and media. Nobody in their right mind wants to play here.

And you believe we can realistically aquire how many of them?

Most of them aren’t available to get. Someone like Derek Carr? We can get him.