DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski looking to rid us of Baker???

Those things are not mutually exclusive, ya know. They can both be true. There is no need to pick one or the other and stick with it.

Except all the evidence points to the QB.

An illogical premise and absurd conclusion isn't something people " do not agree to and you do not know how to respond" to. You ignore any and every logical response and then blame others.

No NFL HC in his second season would do what you have suggested. It would undermine his own career. Stefanski doesn't have a decade or more HC resume that would allow him to get away with what you're suggesting.

He and Baker worked together to take this team to the playoffs and an 11-5 record just last season. No HC would just throw that away by deciding all of a sudden he wants his "own guy".

For one, no HC in only his second season would have the power to tell the GM who to draft. Stop acting like He's Andy Ried. He's not nor does he hold that power.

The reason people are reacting the way they are is because none of what you're saying makes any sense.

I think the QB issue needs resolved in 2 ways next season.

#1 Baker Mayfield needs to heal and get healthy

#2 Browns need to find someone they trust to led the team if Baker get injured. Injuries happen. That is a part of the game. Baker playing hurt in the end hurt this team and his image outside the locker room. I think bringing in someone to one push Baker to get get better during the off season is a good thing and two is capable to win games when he is out. Mayeb something like Mitchell Trubisky in Free Agency on a 1 year deal and Sam Howell in the 2nd round.

I think (probably moreso hope) that this season will go down in history as the (or one of) the learning opportunities to mold the team into a perennial contender.

Lots of brutal data exposing flaws and weaknesses.

Look, anyone can admit the Green Bay Christmas game was a scheduled, and the Steelers playing the Browns for the final game was scheduled.

After the whooping that the Browns laid on the Steelers last year in the playoffs, it was just too good of an opportunity to pass on.

People forget that they plan the schedule to generate revenue and interest.

My feelings on Baker have changed somewhat. My problem is Baker can have a pretty low floor when things aren't exactly right. He is at the point of his career where the young rookie QB has matured and honed the craft to where he should be able to elevate the play of the players around him.

That hasn't happened.

I don't know where all of this is going to go, but what I do know is that I hope we don't waste the careers of Myles Garrett and Nick Chubb the way we wasted Joe Thomas'. I also know we need to have a back-up plan if we indeed do go forward with Baker another year. We can't keep dinking around hoping the guy plays like we hoped he would play.

When exactly were things "exactly right"?

Hue?
Freddie?
OBJ?
Hance at LT?
Wills with a bum ankle regressing?
Conklin out more than in?
Hance at RT?
Hudson at RT?
Torn labrum?
Broken bone?
Ankle, groin, foot injuries
The worst WR group in the division...maybe the league
TEs who drop the ball or fall down right after catching it?

I read that comment a lot...but have no idea when that was exactly?

Perfect situations?

Mahomes
Murray
J Allen
L Jackson
J Herbert
Burrow (the instant they added Chase to that group of weapons)

The narrative has been written - "Baker needs things to be perfect to play well" ... until he does it on the field of play, highlighting the unique history of what Baker has faced won't win any arguments, no matter how accurate.

Not directed at you, specifically, but I'd love for somebody to articulate exactly what they mean by this.

He can't create his own pocket.
He can't catch the ball for them, and he can't run their routes.

What is it a QB is expected to do to "elevate" others? or, is this just a mystical phrase embodying the feeling that we just should have done better, damn it!?

I think it means he helps them jump higher.

...I don't think it means how Johnny M elevated Josh Gordon.

"Strap the team on his back and find a way to win" is another popular expression used to try to put Baker down, and falls in line with what you say above. But possibly even worse - because how many games has Baker come from behind, helped take a LATE 4th Q lead and then watch from the sidelines as the Cleveland D gave up a long drive and game losing score?

Or stood stymied on the field after his "weapons" drop passes...fumble the ball away...or run their own darn routes while making the 'ole business decision.

Or had his targeted receiver held for 8 yards in his route before pulling the WR back for the pick...with no call.

j/c

I don't know. Maybe you guys can count them for us?

Second half of last year we had OL miss some games here and there, we had basically the same WR group, the same TE group, we did have Hunt for most of it but we've all seen that DJohnson isn't that huge of a drop off... and we still scored points and won games. And that was with a defense that held almost nobody to less than 20 points..

Somebody can do a detailed analysis of strength of schedule or how many OL missed games or do whatever deep dive into the analytics that they want but the single biggest factor that changed is that Baker was hurt this year. First it was the labrum, then compounded with some leg injuries...

And the simple fact is that players just play... sometimes QBs throw the perfect ball to a well covered guy.. is that the QB elevating the play of the WR? Sometimes WRs catch balls that aren't well thrown, they go up or layout or take big hits and come up with the catch anyway... is that the WR elevating the play of the QB? Sometimes a RB breaks a number of tackles and turns a sure loss into a nice gain... is that the RB elevating the play of his OL? Sometimes an OL gives a RB a massive hole that my grandma could run through for 12 yards... is that the OL elevating the play of the RB? Sometimes a coach dials up the perfect pass play at the perfect time and it is very easy to execute... is that the coach elevating the play of the QB? Sometimes the QB audibles into just the right play that is going to work... is that the QB elevating the play of himself and the whole offense?

These guys are highly paid professionals, you expect them to do their jobs, sometimes you expect greatness, sometimes you realize that a mistake is going to happen...

I don't believe it's about tangibles, more on the emotional side. Getting psyched up !! wanting to lift your game up and play to a higher level. As in any competition if your on a team or just another individual you may play at that persons level, which may not be what you can achieve.

Then you pair up or have that single player come on your team that just gives you that special energy to achieve and succeed at a higher level.

I don't know, if you keep throwing passes that are being dropped, you keep running perfect routes and getting open and the ball's just aren't coming your way, looking at the sidelines and the hc constantly has an apathetic, confused look on his face.....that stuff has to have an impact on your performance. Negativity is infectious.

Maybe I should say make them better.

QB's can make receivers better by being better. Baker isn't making his receivers better IMO.

Even the line on sacks...watch Baker. He has a habit of drifting in the pocket several feet. Linemen know where the QB should be. Drifting a few feet either way changes the pocket.

I don't know man. I have supported the guy, but I am starting to think the guy isn't going to work out unless he changes.

We can talk about the receivers dropping balls with no separation.
The TE's being sub-standard.
The line being all gummed up.
This year the coach can't call plays or the O is wrong
Last year we heard how a 2nd year in the O was going to make things better.

It always seems to be something, when you know what.. Maybe it isn't all of those things. Maybe it's because our QB isn't all that great unless everything is perfect around him.

Just a thought.

Very interesting article - specifically the part about not playing to Mayfield's skill set. Common issue with teams that seem to always struggle at QB, not building the offense to the skill set of the QB.



https://sports.yahoo.com/anonymous-exec-believes-baker-mayfield-000052680.html

I think that is the problem. Our HC wants to run an O that our QB isn't made for thus all the inconsistent play. One or the other has to change or it won't work.

I don't think that KS is looking to get rid of Baker. All QBs have to be good at finding and hitting the open receiver on time, and that's something Baker has to improve on coming off this season.

But I do wonder if KS and Berry have a longer term plan for the offense. It seems to be an offense that emphasizes the run while asking its QB to only do a couple things really well. In league of have's and have-not's at the QB position, I think it makes a ton of sense to feature an offense that makes the QB just a cog in the offense instead of the main driver. So to that end, I wonder how heartbroken they'll be if they finally come to the decision that Baker just doesn't work here.

Dorsey trying to save face on his #1 draft pick!

“But at the end of the day, it’s not a great fit. He’d be best in a shotgun, up-tempo offense like they have in Arizona,” an NFC exec said. “The Browns will get rid of the only good quarterback they’ve had in years and fall into the same traps of the past.”

Baker is not a good fit for the offense that maximized his skill set and had his most efficient year as a QB? Ok.

And then there is this (I remember when MKC was bashed for reporting this exact same story Fowler is now reporting):

Mayfield also may be looking for a different system to play in before becoming a free agent after 2022.

Cleveland is saying all the right things right now related to their quarterback plans in 2022 but not everyone is buying it. Time will tell what the truth really is.

Baker did just fine in this system last year... WHEN HE WASN'T INJURED..

The best system for Mayfield is the system he is currently in. Our offensive coordinator was Todd Monken and he was horrible. The next year he was in Stefanski’s offense and had his best year. The stats prove out that Mayfield is best while running play action and with multiple tight ends. It’s not like this stuff is unknowable.

So today, what is more important to the success of the team, the QB's skill set or the coach's scheme? Interesting that a Tom Brady says that he doesn't make reads during the play but that his target is decided even before the ball is snapped. Neither Belichick nor Arians have tried to change that method. Murray, Jackson, Mahomes, and Allen play in offenses that were built around their skill set - not a coach's scheme. Rodgers threatened to leave the GBP because they wouldn't address the personnel needs that would enhance his skill set. The Bengals drafted Boyd in the second round in 2016, Burrows in the 1st and Higgins in the 2nd in 2020, and Chase in 1st round of 2021. They have built their offense around their players skill sets.

I'm pretty sure that this will be Stefanski's and Berry's last season in Cleveland. It's much easier to replace a head coach and GM than it is your QB. If they keep Mayfield, a bad year sends them packing. A good year means a new contract for Mayfield which I don't think he signs with Berry and Stefanski still in place due to their noncommittal long-term stance the last 2-years. If they trade Baker, it will shorten their tenor if it doesn't work. I'm sure there won't be any grace period due to a new QB. Even if it does work but Mayfield shines somewhere else, the fallback will be ugly.

IMHO, Mayfield's struggles are directly related to his being uncomfortable in the offense the team is running. He's pressing and questioning what he's seeing so as to not make a mistake. You can fix mechanics, you can fix decision making processes, you have a hell of a time changing a players skill set. Anyway, the Stefanski - Mayfield marriage is coming to a head either this off season or next, but something has to give.

That has to be what Stefanski is doing. Trying to dump Baker. In only his second NFL season as HC he is willing to undermine his own job and future as an NFL HC to get his own guy. Even whhen he is not in charge of the draft.

Yeah, that's gotta be it!

Again - it's the freaking scheme. The scheme doesn't allow Mayfield to build any chemistry with his WR's even if they were the lowest rated WR group in the league.

What teams ran the most multiple TE sets in 2021?
The top 3 multiple TE set users in 2021:
Miami 70% of their plays came with multiple TE sets
Atlanta - 49% of their plays came from multiple TE sets
Cleveland - 43% of their plays came from multiple TE sets

Even more disturbing is the 13 personnel, 22 personnel, and 23 personnel where there's 1 or fewer WR's on the field
22% of the plays Cleveland ran in 2021 had 1 or fewer WR's on the field.

Looking a little deeper, the Browns ran 13 personnel on 17% of the plays they ran in 2021, almost twice as much as any other team in the NFL. (9% PHI)

If you just look at the 13 personnel, 22 personnel, 23 personnel, 03 personnel and 32 personnel you will see an interesting look when compared to the other NFL teams.
Only 5 teams used these sets double digit percentages:
Cleveland 22%
Atlanta 21%
Baltimore 16%
Las Vegas 12%
Tennessee 12%

The lowest:
LA Rams 0%
Buffalo 1%
Washington 1%
Green Bay 2%
Pittsburgh 3%
Jacksonville 3%
NY Jets 3%
Cincinnati 4%
Arizona 4%
Dallas 4%

The scheme is not set up to allow the QB to develop chemistry with his WR's - not when almost a quarter of your plays consist of either 1 or zero WR's on the field.

I think they should have schemed so our injured QB would pass more. That would have been the smart thing to do.

7 of the 10 teams that lined up the least in the TE heavy packages went to
The playoffs.

Do the Browns have to have the best QB in.the division
In order to win the North?

Maybe we should switch to a scheme where we don't have WRs open more often than the rest of the league. That's what we tried this year.

You Mayfield haters crack me up. In your mind he's just a bad QB. Never mind that almost 50% of the plays were ran with 2 or more TE's on the field. Let's ignore the fact he was injured where it effected his accuracy. Let's ignore that 22% of the plays were run with 1 or no WR's even on the field. Rhythm and chemistry are critical factors for a QB and builds confidence. If the QB isn't seeing (or practicing) 3 WR sets less than 50% of the plays he's absolutely going to struggle with chemistry and rhythm with those players - injured or not.

Every team lines up in TE heavy packages but Cleveland does it 43% of the total plays.
This year's playoff teams:
Buffalo 10% with 90% in the 12 personnel
Arizona 25% with 84% in the 12 personnel
Cincinnati 22% with 81.8% in the 12 personnel
Dallas 29% with 86.2% in the 12 personnel
Green Bay 31% with 93.5% in the 12 personnel
Kansas City 27% with 74.1% in the 12 personnel
LA Rams 13% with 100% in the 12 personnel
Las Vegas 29% with 58.6% in the 12 personnel
New England 19% with 73.7% in the 12 personnel
San Francisco 16% with 56.2% in the 12 personnel
Tampa 25% with 80% in the 12 personnel
Tennessee 33% with 63.6% in the 12 Personnel
Philadelphia 35% with 74.3% in the 12 personnel
Pittsburgh 19% with 84.2% in the 12 personnel

The closest playoff team to Cleveland was Tennessee and they ran 10% less TE heavy sets than the Browns.

The big driver is that 18% of the Browns total plays were run in the 13 personnel set or the 23 personnel set. 41.8% of the TE heavy set plays were run with 3 TE's. There's not a single NFL team that ran half that many 3 TE sets.

j/c...