DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski looking to rid us of Baker???

This. Assuming we don't create too many more holes in the roster (let Clowney walk, move on from Landry and don't sufficiently replace him, trade away talent like Hunt), I think we're actually looking good given the QB and RT positions are set by training camp.

Before the season I thought it would be poor QB play and injuries. Both played out.

I don't think the drama had much to do with it.

I also think Stefsnski took a giant step backward. Between penalties and not being able to galvanize the team under adversity, I thought he was below average.

Regarding Stefanski... I don't know if I would call it 'below average' (my apologies if I'm splitting hairs). He was dealt tough hands over and over in terms of our injury list alone... and his handling was many times not optimal. Ravens (arguably) had a worse injury situation and I don't think it's hard to argue that they handled it significantly better than we did. IMO, that falls solely on the coach.

And that's what I think people should expect to see when looking at one NFL HC who has been a HC of the same team since 2008 and a HC who was in his second season as a HC.

I agree with that, but with the 'tenuous at best' nature of NFL coaches' general job security I'm not really sure how relevant it is. Coaches are brought in to win games. That same Ravens team fired their DC (I'm assuming there wasn't some behind-the-scenes issues that prompted it). The dude from Houston got the axe this year.

It's my hope that we can look back in 10 or even 5 years and point to this past season as a precursor to a bunch of sustained winning.

I don't really disagree with you there. I also look at the fact Harbaugh has been there since 2008 and they still didn't have a better record this year than a second year Stefanski. It's actually their worst season record since 2016. There are a lot of factors that go into these decisions and it's certainly well above my pay grade.

You are right jimmy, baker played well as a rookie. In fact , put his rookie season in context and he played really well. He came onto a 1-31 team, that was more of a butt of jokes than a team. The team started 0-2 and was being shut out at the end of the first half of game three. All indications were we were headed for another sucky season. And then baker came into the jets game and it was like a light switch turned on and we were a different team. From the moment he zipped that first pass into Jarvis everything seemed to change and baker played well as he helped turn the team around that rookie year.

For some reason you skipped to season three years later. Skipping the Freddie year made sense but why did you skip over the season two years later. You know the one that baker qb’d us to 11 wins and a spot in the playoffs. And a win in the playoffs over Pittsburgh. I don’t remember the last playoff win for the browns, but it was not in this century.baker played well against the teams we had to play and that is all we can ask.

Instead of that season you jumped ahead three seasons to an injury plagued year. Biggest mistake our team made was pushing thru with baker all season. After a couple of ineffective games we should have ir’d him and got him his surgery. He would be well on his way to recovery by now. I am certain the staff saw him as our best chance to make the playoffs. If they knew then we were not making them he would have been done for the year.

Baker will be our qb next year and we are gonna have a really good year. That is my story and I’m sticking to it!

I would rather you compare their team's records than personal stats.

Even though Baker was in a rebuild, you know he's not a Brady.

This a graphic that shows the NFL is very different now than it was from 2000 to 2003. Kurt Warner led the league in passing, while on a team nicknamed the Greatest Show on Turf, and would have been fifth in passing in 2021.

(Also, Brady didn’t play at all in his first year.)

Super, I do not think his point was that baker is another Brady. Shoot, there may never be another Brady. The point is that after four seasons Brady was not a finished product. He was not the qb he would become. And neither is baker. Brady got way way better, improved tremendously. I would bet in those first four seasons Brady missed some passes that every pro qb should make. I would bet he missed some wide open receivers. Misread defenses. All the things new nfl qbs struggle with. And he improved.

It is doubtful baker will be another Brady, but he can continue to improve and become a much better qb. I am looking forward to that.

You're right that Brady wasn't a finished product after four years. He didn't even play in his first year and was the 199th selection in the draft. So if you're saying that Mayfield progressed as well in his first four seasons as the 199th selection in the 2000 draft that makes sense.

It is true that Mayfield could turn out to be the next Tom Brady. He could also turn out to be the next mediocre QB that never progresses into anything special. There's simply no way of knowing. But if you look at all the QB's who started average, which is what those numbers are, and failed to how many actual Tom Bradys there are, the odds aren't good.

I'm one who wants Mayfield to get another year. I know the injury had to impact his accuracy. How much exactly I don't know. There were stretches in those games where he didn't look bad and stretches in those same games where he looked awful. His footwork was off a lot. I'm sure some of that had to do with his injury. Especially during the stretch where he had leg injuries combined with the shoulder. But that was a very limited amount of games during the shoulder injury. So once again, just how much of his shoulder injury impacted his footwork I don't know. The same applies to his lack of finding open WR's. We certainly could use a talent infusion at WR but that doesn't change the fact you have to be able to read the field to find open WR's. There may be a connection to the injury in that regard as well but that seems somewhat far fetched to me.

In short I've seen enough good Baker that I'm not ready to write him off due to an injury plagued season. Those portraying him as the second coming are no more convincing than those who are claiming he is trash. None of us have any idea how much or how little he has or has not progressed since the 2020 season because we didn't see enough of healthy Baker to find out. I want to find out.

The other thing that has me hanging on to Baker (other than the realistic options to replace him out there) is that he's shown the ability to improve his weaknesses. Obviously, there's still a lot to fix (and re-fix, in some cases) but he has shown that he can fix things in his game in the past (while the season is going on, to boot).

I'm not even sure if he has that much to fix. I just feel the injuries provide more questions than answers. It very well could be that a healthy Baker has good footwork. That would improve his accuracy. They worked on it a lot. He does have some escapability when he's healthy so that may help in him being more comfortable in going through his reads. For me there are a lot of questions and I don't know the answers to those questions.

Not strictly directed towards you but there is one thing I believe posters should keep in mind. We went 11-5 last year. Most posters wish to point that out and it's certainly a fact that can't be denied. Which opened the door for this FO to spend the entire off season to at least try and negotiate a long term contract extension with Baker. We never even heard so much as a rumor that it was even attempted. So as much as some wish to label everyone who questions Baker as being a "hater", maybe they should stop and think that if this FO was sold on Baker like they are, they woud ahve already been trying to sign him to a long term deal. All evidence to this point indicates they have questions too.

Which is why they chose to pick up their fifth year option and wait it out. To give him that fifth year to see what he becomes. That's the same thing I want. If that makes me a hater, so is our FO. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

I might be mis-remembering your take on Baker, but IIRC you gave Baker credit for coming in as a #1 overall pick to a 1-31 team and immediately being a key part of an offensive resurgence. I bring that up (and if that wasn't you, then I apologize... it's hard to keep everyone's different takes straight) because I see Stefanski in the same light. He came in and broke/breaking the cycle of hilariously bad coaching hires. Him and Berry have built this wall of boringness that, after decades of drama and weirdness, I think it's hard for Browns fans to watch our team being run by actual professional adults.

I'm not saying Stefanski doesn't have his weaknesses. I'm really hoping that their relentless pursuit of improvement leads him to shake up his gameday role (playcalling). But I think his demeanor/style is what is necessary after so many bad hires, and I think what he was able to accomplish in a very challenging first year is really commendable.

There are many coaches in the history of the NFL who were even-keeled on the sidelines, and very successful. I think sideline histrionics is a poor indicator of potential success.

It's not like he's sitting there with that sour-pus look like Mangini had... or the completely confused look that Shurmer had all the time.

I think comparing Premier Managers to NFL head coaches is an apples to oranges comparison. Bill Belichick is one of he GOAT - he is as bland and non committal as any interview you can imagine. it has nothing to do with his football smarts or acumen. Same with Stefanski.... And while I agree KS has made mistakes - there is nothing that can't be improved and learned from, which is what I expect.

Just like I am unwilling to simply cast aside Baker's best performances last year - neither am I willing to do the same with Stefanski. If 2022 our offense is stale, lacks adjustments and we again (and in better health) come out in 13 personnel as much as we did this year... then I will revisit. But I think KS has shown plenty and he needs a fair shake just like Baker.

I think he had that Shurmur look quite a bit as the season wound down.

Are you serious? Belicheck does nothing but throw temper tantrums on the side lines.

Actually I think my wife nailed it.

I quit on the Pittsburgh game shortly after Stefanski went with the "horse whisperer" approach with Clowney... after he ripped off Claypool's shoe and threw it, costing us a TD.

I asked her later what she thought of the debacle.

"I don't know, I'll be honest though, Stefanski always looks like he 100% just woke up from a long nap."

Well,pit,I did not consider draft position to matter much once they were established starters but since you do we can look further.

Baker. Peyton Manning

Completion %. 62%. 61%

Yds/game. 236. 256

TDS/game. 1.5. 1.79

Into/game 0.9. 1.26

Qb rating. 88. 85


So as with Brady and Baker, Peyton M was also not a finished product at four years into his career. So apparently even #1 overall draft picks have to develop their skills. As with Baker and Brady, I am sure Peyton missed some passes any pro qb should be able to make, overlooked some wide open receivers and misread some defenses. But he continued to develop and improve.

Nobody knows how much Baker will continue to get better and no one thinks he is the “second coming”. But he is our qb and these stats do show that he is not necessarily as good as he is going to get. He can get better. None of the potential replacements
I see on here have any more potential to be the Qb we need than Baker does. None of the qbs in this years draft look to have the potential Baker does .

Like you I think Baker should be our guy next year. Anyone who would decide to get rid of Baker based upon the injury plagued past season would be a bloomin idiot, and the guys running the Browns are not that.

One final thought. If Baker crashes and burns next year, we will probably spend the next decade wandering in the Qb wilderness.....without a Moses to lead us. The best thing for the Browns is for Baker to light it up and we have to come up with the dough to pay him. I think that is what is going to happen and I am staying positive waiting for next year.

Agreed, and it will probably take another 10 years to get the win totals we've gotten in the last 4. Even with an injured Baker we had more wins than any QB since Holcomb.

Not to mention that neither Manning nor Brady played almost an entire season with a torn labrum, broken humerous and a harness that looked like a straight jacket. I'm thinking either they or their coaches wouldn't have been stupid enough to let them play.

jc

I personally think Stefanski needs to get an Offensive Coordinator and stick to being the head coach. His play calling is awful in the Red Zone IMHO. We get to the Red Zone by running successfully and he tries running a Bootleg that loses 5 yards or we get there by passing and he runs it for a loss of 5 yards and then goes for it on 4th and 12 instead of taking the points. He didn't adjust his play calling to the teams strengths before and after Baker got hurt when it was clear that what he was doing wasn't working. I'll give put that all in his rookie learning curve bucket and hope things work better next season. I don't think he's purposely trying to hurt Baker, he seems to be a better man than that.

It's like pulling teeth to get Stefanski to try something new on offense. < Is that a mostly true statement, a somewhat true statement, somewhat not true, mostly not true, or it's not possible to tell?

Stefanski is 20-15 as Browns coach included in those numbers 1-1 in the playoffs. He has been .500 in the North 3-3 each year in arguably the best division in Football or 2nd best to NFC West. I think he and Andrew Berry know what they are doing and I will trust them.

I love the scheme Stefanski brought here. I also think it would be unfair to Van Pelt (or whoever he brought in) to have them call plays within a scheme they're not intimately familiar with. I hope that maybe Van Pelt has shown he's ingrained himself enough in the offense to start taking playcalling off of Stefanski's plate. I think we've finally landed a great "organizer/executive" coach... one that does a good job staying on top of the big picture and leading the team. It would suck (but would be totally "Browns") if we cut that guy loose because of something like he won't give up playcalling when he should.

Again, the NFL in 1998-2001 was very different than it is now.

Just my opinion but:

Stefanski is a horrible play caller and giving him a rank of "glorified cheerleader" could be a stretch. 1) He fails to adjust to what the defense is doing but more importantly, he refuses to take what the defense is offering him. His plays are predictable and your QB has to be able to check out of (for example) a run up the middle when there's 8-9 in the box but if you're running 3-TE sets almost 20% of the time you're not putting your QB in a situation to be
successful. Especially when you don't have a single TE rated above 30% in being able to get a step or more separation in man coverage. Then you have a WR group where it's highest PFF ranked player was 73rd. Think about that for a minute, 32 teams X 2 WR = 64 WR's. The Browns didn't have a single WR in the top 64. Who the hell is responsible for setting the scheme and players for the team - Stefanski.

The OBJ drama is a totally failed exercise by both Stefanski and Berry. Look, OBJ requested to be traded during the off season while healing from his knee injury. He caught everyone by surprise when he wasn't ready to go at the start of the season. Now I don't care what the players said and even less what Stefanski and Berry said - OBJ was a disgruntled WR because he wasn't being used the way he thought he should be used in the Stefanski scheme. No one can tell me that they don't believe that OBJ being disgruntled didn't have an effect on not only the team but specifically the WR group. His antics on the sidelines when he didn't get the ball combined with not running the proper routes or knowing where to line up is inexcusable for a player with his tenure. This and the overall weakness of the WR group should have been addressed during the off season rather than festering 9 weeks deep into it.

I said it before and I'll say it again, the Browns drafted a gun slinger to be the franchise QB. The Browns hired a coach hell bent on using his run scheme no matter what the defense does. So now we have a gun slinger QB throwing 250 less passes per year than the top tier teams in a 2021 passing scheme league. Stefanski has absolutely blown any chance of using the skill set of Hooper because of his scheme. Highest paid contract for a TE ever at the time and Stefanski cuts his targets by almost 50%. He's successfully chased away two #1 WR's in Diggs, OBJ, and highly likely #2 Landry this off season while putting together a WR group that doesn't have a single player graded in the top 64 WR's in the league (Landry tops at 73rd). Injury aside, fans want to blame this all on Mayfield who tried his best even though the offense is not set to his skill set, horrible use of the TE position, and a WR group that needs to get better to qualify as "sucking." The inability to build a chemistry with your WR's when they are not on the field almost 50% of the time is unattainable. All of this and was required to play without a #1 WR almost 70% of his last 20 plus games. When an opposing future Hall of Fame QB comes out and states "the Browns are not putting Baker into situations where he can be successful," you have a major problem.

The sack situation doesn't even deserve comment. Hell, the commentators during the game were questioning Stefanski's poor coaching adjustment - actually no adjustment. Nuff said about that......

At this point 'No." Unless Stefanski can bring his offense into this century then I say no. To me, if Baker has a great year, I believe they will always be looking back at this injury filled year from 2021. I suspect the Browns will try to squeeze Baker into a lower contract, so he'll try to walk or if tagged be disgruntled which will show on the field. If Baker has a bad year, he'll leave for sure but someone has to take the hit for having to start over so Stefanski will take the first hit and Berry probably the second. IMHO, dragging out Mayfield's contract until next off season is going cause massive headaches for all concerned. Someone is going to pay the price for this wait-n-see move - just the question of who.

Yes and no - the number of passing attempts is way up. So the number of passing yards is significantly up. But completion % and some of the other metrics are not wildly dis-similar... some metrics like yards per attempt are very close.

Interestingly 2011 the passing yards and numbers were higher than they are now. I don't know if that's an anomaly or what might have caused that.

2001 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2001/post/all/passingyards/desc

2011 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2011/POST/all/passingyards/desc

2020 -- https://www.nfl.com/stats/player-stats/category/passing/2020/POST/all/passingyards/DESC

I don't think you can just dismiss any and all comparisons out of hand. It's not that simple. Peyton's and Bakers completion % would be one comparison that I don't think is something to instantly dismiss. Especially given some of the other factors like Baker being injured this year which are baked into the stats someone posted.

2011 was the lockout year. Offense went nuts for that year and then went back to normal in subsequent years.

Well conceived post .

I think we've come to the same conclusion about Baker being our starter again next year all be it by different methods. I attribute a lot of Baker's issues this year to his injuries and I don't think he should be written off because of that. And it's true that we went 20 years without having an answer at the QB position. That doesn't mean that we will go another ten years without finding the answer if they decide to move on from Baker after next season. As a Browns fan there's no doubt that I hope Baker does well next season. I certainly don't want to see us in the position where we have to start over again at square one at the QB position.

What I probably find the most odd in all of this is we see posters who give Baker a pass due to his injuries, which I understand, but at the same time place blame on Stefanski who was also handicapped in using much of the playbook and had to try to adjust on the fly due to not only Baker's injuries but multiple injuries on the OL. It's as if one of them gets a free pass while the other one doesn't.