DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Stefanski looking to rid us of Baker???

Stefanski didn't change the system of the playbook. There was a lot of speculation that he would. Stefanski & AVP came out and said that they would just add in a few new looks and plays to improve the offense because it would be easier for a coach or two to learn the system vs the entire team. So, they kept it the same as the year prior.

So, yes, all of the returning players had years in the same system (including OBJ)

I have no recollection of this and think it is wrong.

Care to make a signature bet?

I recall much the same.

No. I would love to see some links though.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...ense-make-it-even-more-explosive-in-2021

here is one - running out the door there are a bunch more quotes from AVP where he said he would adjust to the existing playbook and schemes vs the team. I'll get them later

Stefanski aims to 'evolve' Browns offense, make it even more explosive in 2021

Sure, the Browns aren't starting from scratch with their offense, which quarterback Baker Mayfield will certainly embrace — 2021 will be his first offseason that won't require him to build a bond with a new head coach. Other players will be thankful for the continuity, too, as their trust with their head coach shined throughout the triumphs of the 2020 season.

Stefanski, however, will go to work to ensure the offense will have plenty of new looks and play designs to keep defenses guessing. The play-action schemes that elevated Mayfield's performance will need to be fine-tuned with new routes and looks at the line of scrimmage. Any new players will have to adjust to the play calls and designs and get on the same page as returning players. Stefanski will determine which plays from 2020 stick into next season, and which new plays he might opt to add to the playbook.

The foundation the Browns touted during and after their playoff run is set. But to keep building in 2021, they'll be implementing several offensive adjustments with the goal of becoming an even more overpowering unit.

There has been a miscommunication. I thought we were talking about when Stefanski first got hired in 2020.

No, I get it "just fine". We were eliminated the day before our Monday Night Steelers game when the 'Gals beat the Chiefs... that was 7 days from the end of the season.

I could swear Windows 95 has a calendar at the bottom right of the screen just like every subsequent version.

Mostly j/c, but as far as the Browns offensive "evolution" going into 2021, Stefanski also said this:


Sounds to me like we were just running with a few tweaks. Stefanski made it clear that QB1 would be running, for the most part, the same exact plays.


2020

We didn't do anything extravagant offensively in Stephanski's first year. We played paper-scissors-rock with audibles. Teller and Bitonio were road-graders. Chubb and Hunt were going to run over, through and around you for four quarters... that's what the opponent knew.

Analytics on Stefanski? There were none. Teams tried to figure us out on the fly, it usually didn't work out.

Vrabel came out with a bold plan when we both met at 9-3... Stop Chubb and Hunt at all costs... he was still stuffing eight in the box just before the half as we scored to go up 38-7. Baker (seriously) looked like the best QB in the NFL. Halftime 21-26 290yds 4TD. Baker hit Kendall Lamm for a TD... on the very next play he threw a picture-perfect strike to DPJ for 75 yards. He even caught a tough, off target pass from Landry for a 1st down. There was no doubt in anybody's mind that we had found our QB... even Rishuz was starting his (short-lived) love affair with Baker.

We could all look up and smile to the gods, and finally, the gods smiled back.

As a tribute to those gods and something that went understated? A rift in the law of averages had every trick or gadget play work at an alarming success rate. Beckham to Landry, Landry to Beckham, Landry to Mayfield, HB lateral end arounds, Landry-freakin-runs-up-the-middle for ten yards, didn't matter. No one would have been surprised to see Chubb throw a TD pass to Baker Mayfield.

We established an m.o. of a heavy weight puncher that was going to bloody your face, early and often, and then cuncuss you late with Chubb and Hunt. Stefanski looked like a genius merely because everything always (or almost always) seemed to work. We bludgeoned more than our share of opponents early in games, it looked like coach could just pick the plays out of a hat.


2021

Same offense. Same players. Our off-season battle cry was "we're running it back!"

Our off-season adjustments probably consisted on designing a few more plays to get OBJ "involved". He had already more than hinted that he wanted out. We wanted to figure out the riddle that saw us play better without him... and quickly alleviate the butt-hurt that our success in 2020 caused him. But we're certainly not changing the blueprint of what was a dominant offense.

And that was the first domino to fall. Stefanski's "paper-scissors-rock" offense showed it's sign as we approached the line of scrimmage. A year of tape (and the horse's mouth) told defenses exactly what we were going to do.

As the season draws near... OBJ is releasing videos that show he can run up a mountain at 20mph. We're putting all our players on the sidelines to watch the meaningless pre-season games. What could go wrong with an offense that was so all-but-unstoppable the year before?

By week 3 Landry is gone and Baker has a broken wing. OBJ is reluctantly back in the mix, but there are other dominos falling..."The Union" is becoming more broken, game by game, their shifts being covered by scabs.

Two weeks later, Chubb is gone and on a path to get nursed back into action... a week after that, Hunt is carted off for a five week rehab. As a duo? The'll suit up together for a combined 44 yards the rest of the year.

Amid all of that we were scrapping and always maintaining the ambition of a division title, as ugly as it looked at times.

But Stefanski always seemed to maintain the same level of predictability and mundane. Soon, most fans were to the point of predicting Stefanski's plays. "Checking out" of plays at the los seemed to be met with an opposing defense that was even more sure of what they would see. After OBJ's and with Landry's absence, Stefanski's adjustments became empty backfields and more elaborate TE sets, all of which served to confuse Baker even more, as an offensive line was doing nothing (compared to 2020) to protect him.


Still:

Chargers: Baker looks solid... Baker Mayfield 23/32 305 9.5 2 0
Stefanski "puckers" with the lead in the fourth. First with a predictable three and out - two Hunt run, an empty backfield incompletion, Hunt run on 3rd and 9. Then it all culminates in Baker throwing a series of stupid short passes during the final 1:31 as we move a total of 21 yards in 8 plays to end the game. A 4th down drop at the goal line by OBJ looms large in the loss.

Cards: Blown out and Baker BLOWN UP by JJ Watt. Another 4th down drop by OBJ doesn't loom large, but the "end is nigh."

Denver: Keenum does just enough to win 17-14

Steelers: Stefanski is awful, Baker held his own but continued his trend of throwing high or inaccurately on intermediate to long passes. Drops, fumbles, penalties. The drops and fumbles courtesy Jarvis Landry... including a 4th down drop at the Pittsburgh 26 to effectively end the game... following a fumble at their 32 the series before. His head is probably not in the game though... he, if anybody on the planet, knew that his BFF would slow down the internet thirty-six hours later with a "trade or release" demand.

Despite it all: Browns still in the hunt!


BENGALS: Browns win 41-16... Baker Mayfield 14/21 218 10.4 2 0 132.6
Baker was back throwing accurate deep and mid-range with five passes of 20 or more yards, including a 60yd pass to DPJ for an early 21-7 lead. Complete team victory, defense gets after Burrow for five sacks and 2 INT.

And that's when Mayfield became "ride or die".

Down the stretch, all we needed was one more win and one more Bengals loss to be playing for the division on January 9th... They went 5-2, we went 2-5. Besides a blowout in New England where Belichick seemed to know our plays before we snapped the ball, and a meaningless 12 point loss to the Steelers the day after our hearts were broken, the other three losses were by a combined total of 10 points. The Bengals beat the Steelers, Raiders, Ravens and Chiefs. Despite it all, we had a shot at the division until 7 days from the end of the season.

This is the price that the Browns pay for being unsuccessful. The search for easy solutions cloud peoples judgement.



This 100%!

I take Mahomes as an example.

By many labeled as the next GOAT with probably one of the best play callers on the side line and two of NFLs best play makers in his offense and still in the 2nd half he looked like a Impala running for his life chased by a flock of hungry lions.

In no time his team goes from heroes to zeroes and suddenly they’re all criticized for everything and nothing.
Andy Reid’s playbook is limited. Mahomes shrinks when the stakes are high. RataRataRaa

Maybe I shouldn’t be surprised by the reactions against Baker. We’re all humans after all…

OBJ was brought in prior to the Freddie season/debacle. He had to learn that playbook (wasn't successful, IMO).

Freddie was tossed after that season and KS came in. There was absolutely a new playbook at that point. KS year 2 was a small evolution on the playbook. I'd argue we never really saw that evolution because the injuries came fast and hard early on.

You are correct sir they did
But Stafford Herbert Allen Carr Burrow all has more pass attempts than Mayfield
So Baker had a higher INT rate per attempts than they did
And Lawrence was a rookie with a trainereck of a coaching staff
Heinkie was a mid RD pick. So you expect him to be more INT
Prone than the 1st overall pick taken out of Oklahoma

The thing is, most of those QB you listed are throwing
More out of 3 WR sets as Mayfield throws more out
Of multiple TEs sets.
So in essance Stefanskis offense really requires more
Higher completion % with very little high risk throws past
20 yds.
Bakers desicion making downfield has to improve
Does it not.?
He has to go.from average to near elite in order to
Advance the Browns past RD 2. Of playoffs.
He has one playoff appearance in.4 years.
Any QB can pull that off.

Most Turnovers By an NFL player:

2021, Mayfield was 11th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2021

2020, Mayfield was 18th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2020

2019, Mayfield was 3rd
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2019

2018, Mayfield was 9th
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/most-turnovers-by-a-nfl-player-in-2018

Mayfield has never led the league in turnovers. Interesting note that Burrow, Mayfield and Jackson were exactly the same with 16 turnovers in 2021 with Big Ben having 15. Burrow led the division with 14 interceptions.

Another interesting stat for 2021 is the AVGERAGE DEPTH OF TARGET Whether Completed or not for 2021: Jackson BAL 9.3 yds, Mayfield CLE 8.6 yds, Burrow CIN 8.1 yds, and Big Ben PIT 6.7 yds.

We were. What they decided to bring to the table was the differences he was going to implement from his rookie season in 2020 season to the 2021 season. Two totally different things.

In 2020 when Stefanski got here he installed a totally new offense. The tweaks they keep bringing up were to be implemented between the 2020 season and the 2021 season which was his second year here.


Kevin Stefanski: “We’re putting in the 2020 Browns system”

Head coach looking to maximize the offensive talent with his own twist on Gary Kubiak’s long-running system.

“That’s the fun part of getting minds together in a room … The best idea wins. When you put it all on the table and you have the empirical evidence of tape to back it up, that’s the fun part of putting schemes together. We’re putting in the 2020 Browns’ system. I don’t care what you call it, really. And I know there’s gonna be time spent trying to figure out what we are. But we’re trying to spend time making sure that we’re hyperaware of what our players do well.”

https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2020/...i-were-putting-in-the-2020-browns-system

I think there was a little miscommunication/confusion. I am curious if there were big plans for further rolling out KS's offense (end of 2020 into 2021, even if they were only intended and not executed).

They just made some small adjustments to the playbook. nothing substantial from 2020 to 2021. That means, OBJ was in the same system for 2 years (same with the entire offense) We are going into year 3 with the same offense.

Thank you for clarifying.

Here's the problem. There's no evidence that OBJ was "running the wrong routes" in 2021. Not only that but as far as "lining up in the wrong place" that was in 2020 also.

FWIW There are tons of articles and comments about it this year.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...-jr-field-browns-relationship-fell-apart

Mayfield still couldn't get Beckham the ball. Beckham still couldn't get to the spots Mayfield needed him to be.

That was on full display on the opening highlight of the video that Beckham Sr. posted.

Late in the fourth quarter in Week 4 in Minnesota, the Browns were on the verge of putting away the Vikings. Mayfield thought Beckham would break off his route. Beckham saw the coverage differently. And with nothing but green turf in front of him, he kept running. By then, it was too late. Mayfield had already fired the ball. And the result was an embarrassing underthrow.


Over their time together, Mayfield underthrew or overthrew Beckham on 27% of his attempts, according to ESPN Stats & Information, the third-highest rate of any quarterback-receiving duo in the league.

Their final passing play together Sunday proved entirely emblematic.

Trailing the Pittsburgh Steelers with 2:57 to play, Mayfield locked in on Beckham dashing down the right hash toward the end zone. But Mayfield hesitated, then double-clutched. This time, he threw the ball to Beckham anyway. But the pass was off target. Beckham put only one arm into the air. And the ball dropped incomplete.

It sounds to me like you just posted information that indicates it was just as much Mayfield's fault as it was OBJ's.

I believe Stefanski said in PC's that receivers needed to be in the right spots (in response to a question about OBJ not getting the ball).

I don't think anybody said Baker is without blame as far as OBJ being frustrated. But there's a big difference between Baker contributing to OBJ's frustration, and OBJ being justified in his more dramatic behavior and exit from the Browns.

Yet nobody has tried to say Baker was a part of the problem either. Here's something you may wish to look at that I have noticed. People claim that "OBJ was running his routes wrong". To which I tried to explain that if a WR is covered they will break off of their route to get open. If a QB is being pressured they will break off of their route to get open for their QB. We see that all of the time.

In the very article SBD posted here is a quote... "Mayfield thought Beckham would break off his route."

So it seem to me that if OBJ breaks off his route he is wrong and if he continues running his route he is wrong.

And I certainly won't try to uphold all of OBJ's behavior, yet at the same time, once again from the article, "Mayfield underthrew or overthrew Beckham on 27% of his attempts".....

After that is it really any wonder why OBJ wanted to go to another team with a QB who could get him the ball?

You see, day after day it seems people keep posting about OBJ's catch rate compared to his targets. What they never mention is that over 25% of the passes being thrown to him aren't catchable balls. I call that "selective statistics". If you isolate something to a single statistic without looking at anything else it can paint a picture that really doesn't exist.

I would call that characterization categorically false. Everyone on here has said Baker was part of the problem (be it due to his inherent deficiencies or his injuries).


I'm not sure which is right, but I read that 27% stat as trying to say that OBJ wasn't where he was supposed to be. I'm not sure which is correct, though.

And isn't that how it works? People read a stat and according to their preconceived notions interpret that fact along the lines of those preconceived notions.

And I do understand that many posters fully admit, as a matter of fact proclaim loudly that Baker's injury contributed to his inaccuracy. And I certainly agree with that. However I've NEVER seen it come up in any OBJ discussion. When the topic is OBJ it's almost always been 100% OBJ's fault. When you point out the general overall lack of accuracy of Baker it's due to the injury.

I started to post just this. It's at the point now (apparently) where if you don't preface any comment about a unit on the Browns with "In addition to Baker's own issues with accuracy, progressions and reading a defense" other posters will jump to the idea that any criticism of any other unit is intended to give Baker a free pass. It's exhausting. The next thing you know, there will be a debate over whether or not OBJ ever wanted to be in Cleveland and then halfway through - having supplied much material to show plausibly that OBJ never wanted to be here - the response will be "we all know OBJ never wanted to be here BUT ... "

Can you please show me anywhere that anyone has posted that the issues with OBJ were in part tied to Baker's inaccuracy this season?

Don't you find it odd that even after now seemingly trying to admit Baker's injuries were a part of the problem, long after the fact mind you, in the end you circle right back to "OBJ didn't want to be here"? I don't. Because no matter how many other factors played into the issue, that will always be your go to line in the end.

I have no idea what you just said or the point you tried to make - other than to reinforce my comment that a disclaimer is needed when talking about a player or unit on this team.

As for the injury - I said all the way through the year Baker's injuries were affecting his play. It's why I said during the season they should pull him and rest him. And OBJ didn't want to be here. He half assed it and it affected his performance . . . . it doesn't matter if we talk about that at the beginning the middle or the end ... it's true.

And just so you understand I will always be pissed at OBJ for his lack of effort for the Browns. It has zero to do with Baker - it has everything to do with being a Browns fan. In 20 years time if someone says "remember OBJ when he played for the Browns" I'll say 'sure I do, that P.O.S didn't give it all for the Browns and never wanted to play for Cleveland' ... I feel the same way about Jamie Collins.

You can disagree all you want. You can try to put words in my mouth I never said - again ... you can even start off arguing that OBJ did want to be here and then abruptly change your tune .... I can't control any of that.....

Whether the bolded part is true or not is a matter of opinion. Which does not make it true. Not wanting to be here will certainly impact a players performance. That doesn't mean that he's "half assing it". That's simply something you have decided to believe.

And I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I was pointing out words that never came out of your mouth when the discussion was about OBJ. Sure, when people brought up Baker's poor play you were quick to point out the injury. When people, including yourself brought up OBJ's performance you never brought up Baker's injury. And even now you try to put the focus on OBJ. It is what it is.

That is pretty laughable... OBJ dropped several balls on 3rd/4th down that hit him between the numbers.

Truth is Baker was inaccurate with most of the receivers, it was not limited to OBJ.

The problem with OBJ was OBJ.

The problem with Baker was he was injured yet played.

So on one hand you admit that Baker was inacurrate with all WR's. Then on the other hand say the problem with OBJ was OBJ. Well alrighty then.

For the record, I've never said anything is "all OBJ's fault" besides the things that he can control himself. It sounds like you want a disclaimer attached to every post about OBJ in regards to the part Baker played. We all watched them both screw the pooch (as far as upside, chemistry) for 2.5 seasons, it doesn't mean we can't speak about them individually.

Doesn't know where to line up? HIS fault.

Doesn't know the play? HIS fault.

Doesn't want to play in Cleveland? HIS fault.

Drops TD passes that hit him between the numbers? HIS fault.

Throws a hissy fit and wants out during rehab, after a successful start of the season, because we played well without him? 100% HIS fault.


Is traditionally one of the worst WR in the NFL at converting targets to receptions? He AND his QB's fault. (That would include Eli, since he's been dog crap in that regard since 2015)

Baker under or overthrowing at an alarming rate? He AND his QB's fault.

Tell me "how well we played without him" after he left? Maybe you should look at Eli's record during OBJ's last two years there before you keep droning on about Eli. He was actually benched for the rookie only four games into the season after OBJ left. The Giants didn't want Eli playing either. And not wanting to play for with a QB who has the second most open WR's per pass play and can't find them? Yeah, that's OBJ's fault. lol

Here we go again. The goal posts have moved. Again. So we aren't talking about how demonstrably OBJ played half assed... Now it's how we played after he left? Which has nothing to do with OBJs effort in a Browns jersey.

OBJ could not handle being the #1 wide receiver roll. He is flourishing as the Rams #2 with Cupp their #1.

As long as we include how demonstrably the QB throwing him the ball was playing too. Don't blame me because Fate brought up "because we played well without him" and that people said "we play better without him". I'm simply responding to it. We have not played "well or better without him". That's just a fact. No need to get your panties in a bunch or blame me for moving the goal posts.

Edit to add; Let me ask you something mgh. How can anyone know if we're better off without OBJ until OBJ is gone? And remember, I was responding to Fate's comment. I'll give you a hint. You can't know if you're better without him until after he's gone. And that's what you call moving the goal posts. lol

As you've said in other threads, Bakers injuries certainly played a part. Yet, in this thread, you forget that. You can't change your argument in every thread.

How did I 'forget that" when I included it in my posts? I've never forgotten it and have said it not only in this thread but in the Baker threads as well.

They’re all Baker threads.