DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum DeShaun Watson

After four years what do the stats show that Baker does best? Play action, bootlegs, and throwing to tight ends.

it shows he wins more games than Watson

QB wins are a team stat.

I agree, but it's worth pointing out that you'll get a very different opinion in the Baker threads on this.

i looked up the stats.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=MayfBa00
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WatsDe00


Watson is 28-26. Baker is 30-30.

game winning drives: Watson has 10. Baker has 7.

4th comebacks: Watson has 8, baker has 6.

then you add the individual stats, and its not even close.

If you're waiting on Mother Teresa to come and play QB for us it might be awhile. Explains a lot about you.

Those people are wrong also.

Are we playing fantasy football or football? Football is a team sport.


Playoff Wins
Watson 1
Mayfield 1

Number of civil court cases
Watson 22
Mayfield 0

Cap hit
Mayfiled 18.5 mill
Watson 40 mill


It sounds like they also want Kareem Hunt and Denzel Ward and 2 other picks...


Where do we throw their stats in?

?? i dont understand why you considered it fantasy.

number of division titles

Watson 2
Mayfield 0

number of times being #1 in passing

Watson 1
Baker 0

better TD-int ratio

Watson

last time i checked, those are facts, not fantasy.


i dont mind hunt walking because we have D'ernest. Ward might be tough, but we're talking about a proven franchise QB. that cost money and assets.

So are Yards and Completions.

if its about wins, we can get Jimmy G for a lot less than what Watson will bring.

Agreed.

This whole thread reads like a "Anyone but Baker, at any cost" manifesto.

The level of absurdity it would take for the Browns to give up what people have been proposing AND for that to be considered a good move is just absolutely astounding..... and, like a lot of stuff at this time of every NFL year, totally disconnected from anything that makes any sense, whatsoever.

how?

the most likely scenario is still Baker starting the season.

besides, if it came down to Baker or Mariota/Trubisky/Carr, i'd just roll with Baker.

that doesnt mean there isn't a clear upgrade available.

For starters, your second and third sentence are the only things that are sensible (to me) in this thread.

As for the How?, I assume you are asking how I see this as an "anyone but Baker at any cost" thread, and I see it like that when I see people giving apparently serious thought to the idea of giving up the insane amount of capital/players that has been bandied about in here. Even IF that nets us an upgrade at the QB position, and I'm still firmly in the camp of that being an IF, the constraints such moves puts on the team in both the short and long term - and the negative impact that would have on the ability to hold this roster together over time - tells me that people have developed an almost frantic tunnel-vision over the notion of replacing Baker, or getting Watson, whichever.


I'd much rather we just give Baker a DeAndre Hopkins/Brandin Cooks with Will Fuller combo every year and see how much better we look.
Just my $0.02

I understand.

I just don’t believe mayfield can lead us deep into the playoffs. I look around the AFC, and baker isn’t even 2nd best in his own division.

For me it’s going for a known vs 4 years of unknown. The lack of consistency in mayfield as play is troubling.

And then I’m in the opinion that deshaun wouldn’t have had a problem getting OBJ the ball. And the games that baker mayfield couldn’t win are the games Watson will.

The QB is the most important position. So all the weapons in the world won’t matter if the QB can’t get right. Jimmy G is a perfect example of that.

And I’m also basing this on the fact that AB is clearly seeing what else is out there. We’re talking about compensation, but the world is roasting the cowboys for letting amari go for useless draft picks.

I’m talking about Watson from a pure football perspective. All the cap/trade/compensation is something none of us knows what it’ll end up being.

Always the “other teams” in the sources. It’s certainly likely the saints or panthers land him, but it makes me wonder if they’re the front runners simply because they’re NFC teams.

In the end Watson gets to pick his team.

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion when we were literally one horrible no-call from being DEEP in the playoffs. You toss out the word "deep" like it's significant, but you gotta remember a little perspective here.. "DEEP" is two wins. Even if you're a Wild Card, three wins puts you in the Super Bowl. The use of "deep" is pure hyperbole.

Baker CAN do all of that, and when I look at the QBs in this past Super Bowl, there was absolutely NOTHING in that game that Baker isn't capable of on an everyday level.


Beyond all of that, if you took away DeAndre Hopkins/Brandin Cooks and made Will Fuller be the #1, but hobbled him, and then trotted that out with just a bunch of guys to fill the rest of the spots, Deshaun Watson would look an awful lot like Baker did this year.


I feel that this past year of disappointment was long enough that over the last few months folks have built up an idea in their heads of what is and what isn't that doesn't really align with reality.

Edit: Oh, yeah.... and roll DeShaun's ankle, wreck a toe, and break his shoulder.

Ditto!

deep is the conference title game.

and he had 2 cracks at getting the GW and sending us to the title match, but he didnt pull it out.

a healthy Watson is better than a healthy Baker. and our O line and running backs by itself is world betters than what he had in houston.

so i understand why you want to roll with baker. but i rather have a franchise QB that measures up to the completely ridiculous amount of QB's in the AFC.

so you might not understand my position. and while i do understand yours, i disagree with it.

Something not really being discussed is we did say we are going with baker this year.

Why is that not the word and exactly what we are going to do?

Here is another thought. It is always talked about that the best window to be a real SB contender is when your QB is on his rookie deal. That way you can pay for all the other positions. It makes sense.

What if the plan is to always be on a rookie deal? We know that if you are good enough in other areas, you don't have to have the best QB. Green Bay seems to have the best QB most of the time, but they seem to fall short.

No doubt if your QB turns out great you are going to extend past the rookie deal, but if not just draft another guy, have him 5 years behind a team that is really good in the other areas. That makes sense to me.

If a team was to do that, maybe us drafting a QB this year is the way to go.

I mean - I believe that since 2008, there have only been 2 Super Bowl Winners with QBs on their rookie deals (Mahomes and Wilson). This despite the fact that about a quarter of teams have a starting QB on a rookie deal. Obviously their are other "contenders" (Burrow this year) -- but I don't think we see a strong correlation where rookie QBs really help your team.

Our OL is better when healthy. It just so happens we were banged up enough to be trotting out "some guy named Blake" that hadn't been on the team long enough for Baker to learn his full name in the playoffs. We've not been very fortunate on the injury front. Watson had Hopkins. OBJ never lasted to the playoffs and Landry was always slowed down. Baker himself has been hurt.

A QB can't throw to and block for himself.

In the playoffs: Baker was a questionable fumble into the end zone away from beating the Chiefs. DeShaun Watson lost by 20 to the Chiefs.

DeShaun Watson lost to the Colts and only managed to put up 7 points against them.

The only team DeShaun Watson has beat in the playoffs was a Buffalo Bills team whose top receivers were John Brown and Cole Beasley. They were still trotting out an end of the line Frank Gore at RB.

DeShaun Watson doesn't exactly have a great record in the playoffs.

He'd be on a worse team than Baker because we'd have to give up assets and his higher cap hit. He wouldn't have Hopkins to bail him out on low percentage hail Marys.

There's also karma and our track record with mobile QBs to worry about. Our luck and we'd sell the farm only for him to blow out an Achilles and break his throwing arm in four places in a non contact freak accident at training çamp.

We had one of the highest pass block win rates in the league.


Are you talking about the game when the Texans had something like a 24 point league and then Mahomes went nuclear? That was Watson's fault?


The only team Baker beat in the playoffs was the Steelers with an old broken down QB and he still needed five turnovers.


As long as we are giving up players off our roster then this makes no sense.


Watson had his best statistical season in 2020. . . when Hopkins was on the Cardinals.


Is this real?

I do understand your position, I just don't come to the same conclusions you do on the things that support your position, which is kinda why I have the position I have.
You feel he solves a problem. I think he's a "grass is always greener on the other side" kinda thing... kinda like the way everyone was swooning over the prospect of trying to land Garroppolo (or several years back..... or, Orlando Pace, or Bill Cowher, lol... but, now everyone has finally come back to Earth on Garoppolo.



I think the term and idea of "franchise QB" is overblown in a lot of people's minds these days, too. In the playoffs, we saw what Mahommes was without his best targets. Is he not a franchise QB fit for the AFC race? We saw just how much Chase makes Burrow, and Burrow without Chase looks a lot like Weeden (without being as much of a statue). We saw several QBs get praised for dumb throws that Baker got roasted for (just heaving the ball out to a receiver that's doubled or tripled by defenders)... with the only difference being the result on the part of that receiver, and two of them were in the Superb Owl. Aaron Rodgers is the definition of "franchise QB", and he definitely elevates his players, but even he only has one Super Bowl appearance and gets held back by lack of talent and investment at WR. Brady is widely heralded as the GOAT, but even Belichick didn't hesitate to get him Randy Moss and other receiving talents. Your QB has to have viable talent for each WR role for things to run well. When you don't have that, you are limited before you even begin, and no QB can run routes for their receivers. It's the Higgins conundrum: All he does is catch balls from Baker for big plays and first downs.... except for the 97% of the time he can't get open.

In the end, - and to mix metaphors - in a world where you only need a 300HP QB to win it all, we have a 400HP QB (that was misfiring all year because he needed repairs) and folks are wanting to give up the farm for the promise and hope of 450HP without accounting for us only having a drivetrain rated for 200HP.... and doing that upgrade will very quickly cause us to not only be unable to get new parts in the long run, but we'll likely have to sell off other parts just to keep things kinda chugging along.

When people wanted Garoppolo it was based on their projection for what they thought he might become. We know that Watson is top five QB, the only questions are off the field (they are a huge red flag).

It was more my attempt to apply Baker Hater logic to DeShaun Watson.

While 2020 may have been his best statistical season, his team went 4-12. Playing from behind tends to "pad" QB stats. They lost by 30 points to the Bears.

Our surrounding team with Watson would be worse than the surrounding team with Baker. If we traded, we'd be giving up additional players and picks, and we'd have to work around a bigger QB contract.

What was our pass block win rate in the playoffs? When our OL was missing basically everyone.

Baker's playoff record isn't amazing, but neither is Watson's.

I'll admit Watson may be the better player. But how much better?

yea i disagree, especially the last part. Mobile QB's are everywhere.

as far as assets, yall are so confusing on this board. one year, the QB is the most important position and there should be no cost too high to get the guy. then the next, we're all of a sudden worried about draft picks.

do you guys actually want this team to win a title, or are we all good with just being below average as long as we can HOPE to make the playoffs.

im glad AB is at least trying. he might not land watson, but atleast we know the FO tried to upgrade to keep us from falling too behind in the arms race.

The problem here is you're taking things other people may have said and thinking it should somehow apply to me and what I'm saying.

I don't get this either. He was 13th in QBR in 2018, 7th in 2019, 12th in 2020 (two spots behind Mayfield), and then didn't play in 2021....

He's better than Mahomes? Rodgers? Brady? Herbert? Burrows? Wilson? Murray? Josh Allen?

A lot better. Like a ton. Watson is a legit top five QB. Baker, coming off his best season, was ranked 11th NFL front offices before the 2021 season.


My assumption is that we'd just be giving up picks. It wouldn't make sense to tear apart our offensive foundation to get Watson. We would trade for Watson because of the players we have on offense.

Where is the confusion? Are you saying that it somehow makes a difference that he didn't have sexual misconduct with all of his message therapists?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatsDe00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayfBa00.htm

i dunno how many times imma post these links because i swear yall ask questions that already have answers. compare Watson's best year to Baker's best year. oh, you're gonna have to pick which season for watson because he has two seasons of great numbers with back to back playoff appearances. Bakers best season was 2020, and he still had a lower completion % than Watson. for their careers, Baker never had anything higher than 63.8%, which was his rookie year btw, followed by 59, 62, and 60.while watson's lowest was his rookie year at 61.8%, followed by 68, 67, and 70.

watson averages more yards per att, more yards per game, a much higher TD-int ratio, 3 pro bowls compared to none for Baker, and i didnt even post Watson's rushing numbers. adding that element make the gap wider than it already was.

j/c...

Just looking at the facts that matter most.

New Orleans seems to have waaay better massage parlors than Charlotte.

That is all.

well i responded to bull, but since you responded, you're also worried about assets, right?

you know what.....lets do this:

Who do you think is the better QB?

who does GM's around the league think is the better QB?

who do the players think is the better QB?

who does AB think is the better QB?

which QB would stefanski rather have?

and which QB do you think our own players would rather have if given a choice?