This probably deserves its own thread.

Not a chance they outbid the Panthers

Watson has a no trade clause.

Which is exactly why he won't come to the Browns. They have no quality WR's and they have a coach that runs a run first scheme. Watson is used to throwing for over 4,000 yards per season, Stefanski would have a stroke before he allowed his QB throw for 4,000 to 5,000 yards. That in itself will prevent Watson from coming to the Browns. Money is not an object since he's under contract for 4 more years so it is going to boil down to ability to win and the team and weapons to show off his skill set.

I believe he still has around 22 accusers out there waiting to be heard. I have a hard time believing all of them are making up their claims. I didn't want Big Ben anywhere near this team with his record with women. No way I want Watson. It's a shame because he is talented.

I would say we have the second our third best situation of the teams mentioned above. Pittsburgh being first with New Orleans being second or third.

If Watson is choosing, I would suspect his choice would be Tampa Bay. A throw first coach with one of the top receiving groups in football and a proven winner.

I'll be surprised if we end up trading for him... I think you have to explore it because he'd be an obvious upgrade.... I also think Stefanski would open up the throwing game with Watson... bu I'd be surprised if we actually would get him

Jaybird, I believe you are down in Houston. What are your opinions of Watson? Is there a chance he isn't guilty of what he has been accused of?

jc

This guy has a ton of civil suits coming up. We dont need the distraction. He shouldnt even be considered.

Man it's tough... I feel like there has to be something there... that much smoke... many of his fans think he's getting hosed and that the timing is interesting. I don't think there were any accusers until he asked for a trade... but I personally think there's something creepy about it... wouldn't be surprised if he was inappropriate with them, but guess wasn't enough evidence to actually get convicted.

The interesting thing is now they think he'll actually testify in his civil case... he's been pleading the fifth until his criminal case was cleared up....

I'm on the fence... while I agree with you that I don't like the distraction.... the dude is a baller... amazing athlete and leader on the field...

would do everything in my power to sign this guy. He is a very good player. He is way better than Baker on every level. Those saying he wouldn't come here are off, IMO, it is a great situation for an atheletic QB. Great oline, fantastic running game. Sign Amari Cooper and Watson, and this offense will be happening.

He is a good player. He has also won one playoff game. I don't want him. Ride with 6.

Watson is a top five QB who has always had a terrible offensive line.

If the Saints are in they are up there with us as the best option (assuming the above Tweet is true).

Our offensive line and running backs have to be attractive to Watson. With Watson on the team we would also be able to score some wide receivers in free agency.

Please no.

If this happens, I’m not watching another game till he’s gone.

If we’re gonna rally against Ben getting away with rape twice, then how can we justify having Watson as our QB?

This is gross.

I am seriously conflicted with the morality of potentially trading for Watson. In the end I don’t know what I actually want. I just know that legally Watson is off the hook and he is a huge upgrade on the field. If you don’t get him a competitor will. It feels dirty. Most thing about the NFL are dirty.

Nothing happens till Watson says ok since has a no trade clause.

These types of things are hard to decide on. No criminal charges. So, whatever he did was not considered a crime.

We can read the accounts. They all say the same thing. He was exposing himself and doing weird things?

So now he will play for a team. And after an initial media circus. It will become old news.

Joe Mixon was arrested and charged for punching a woman in the face at a cafe, breaking four bones in her face, in July 2014, before his freshman season with the Sooners began. The video was sickening. Nothing happened he played.

So now Watson gets to revive his career. Players often get second chances. He will do a lot to try and form a new identity.

In a couple years this will all blow over.

So what "should" the Browns do? Watson is a terrific player.

It is rare to get a shot at a 26 year old franchise quarterback who is under contract. He will not be a UFA till 2026 and the $ are reasonable.

I am conflicted. Before all this he was considered a good person. We don't know him. We don't know what his real intent was. Or, if he tried to hurt someone.

Berry and Haslam IMO would need to talk to him face to face. Try and get a feel for who he is and what we will do to clear his name over time.

All we could do as fans is either accept him or reject him. At this point I am waiting to see what happens. I will postpone my thoughts on Watson until decisions are made.

The virtual signaling and hypocrisy is hilarious. So if the Browns trade for Watson you'll stop watching but you have been all this time for a team that erected a statue of Jim Brown outside of the stadium?

I don't think of it as virtue signaling to believe that there has to be a line somewhere that we as fans are unwilling to cross to have a winning team. Speaking only for myself, I am going to have a very difficult time maintaining my allegiance to the Browns if they get Watson, and I really hope they don't put me in that position.

I understand why people will have a problem w/ Watson and I have an issue with it as well. But if one wants to claim the moral high ground now in regards to this particular situation while the team has recently made a legacy out of another player with similar issues (arguably worse), that is very inconsistent to put it mildly.

Thus the virtual signaling and hypocrisy.

I think Watson agrees to a trade to cleveland if agreed upon.

Best O line he will ever have. Best run game he will ever have. Best group of TEs, and best coach. We can still get a good WR on the market.

If you are talking about Jim Brown, the truth is his off field issues were barely reported on until he was 20+ years retired. As a youngster, I recall one story of a domestic dispute involving Jim Brown and a young woman who did not press charges. It was a vastly different era when sports writers were more like cheerleaders than they were journalists. As far as the statue goes, that was a team decision, largely informed by Brown's leadership in community outreach issues as well as his on field excellence. He had, to an extent, made amends for his transgressions.

We just embraced a guy who was on video beating a woman.

If Kareem hunt can get a second chance, then I don’t see what the problem is with a guy who isn’t facing any criminal charges and has no video evidence against him.

We got a QB on video running from the cops. A running back on video beating a woman.

But somehow the line got draw at a dude facing no criminal charges dealing with creepy behavior on some ‘he said/she said’ nonsense.

Make it make sense.

Oh yea, and Malik McDowell.

Keep it pure football, Bone.

Who’s the better QB? And who will fit better in Stefanski’s system?

j/c:

Just in case you haven't heard:

Deshaun Watson will NOT be criminally charged over allegations he forcibly touched massage therapists and forced them to perform oral sex on him: Quarterback, 26, still faces 22 civil lawsuits and sat out entire 2021 season

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...haun-Watson-sex-assault-allegations.html

j/c:



Lolz.

Dialectical thinking is a skill I’ve been working on for a few months, Memphis. I’ve been on record multiple times that I would prefer the statue out in front of the stadium to be melted.

If you want to talk about Kareem, I understand where you’re coming from. It’s something I’ve continually wrestled with. At the same time, I view it much like the Myles Garrett situation. As a white guy, I truly have no idea what it’s like to be called the slur either of them was called. Is it cool he threw the woman into the door jam? No, not at all. However, given whatever Kareem and Myles have faced in their life, I try to do the Atticus Finch thing and try to put myself in their shoes to understand their reaction and perspective.

Kareem had a troubled past, but he’s seemed to embrace this second chance, and looks like he’s trying to atone for all he has done. Same with Myles.

Watson has yet to show any of this remorse or desire to atone.

Call this whatever you want, but I know I can’t justify rooting for Watson. No way I can explain to my son in the future, or other future children I may have, why their father rooted for a sexual predator.

Life is more than a fandom. Life is trying to make the world a better place one day at a time.

For the moment let's forget about "should we?"

Let that decision rest with Berry and Haslam.

What do we have "if" he is a Cleveland Brown?

So we lose Baker, 2 or 3 first's. Or, some combination of picks and maybe players. Look at the Wilson trade.

OL - check. RB's check. Receivers? DL? LB's ok. Secondary - check.

We still would have free agency and the draft to fill in the holes. We have the money and draft capital to address the roster.

What does Deshaun Watson bring to the table?

He is a winner. When the game is on the line. I have seen this guy take over games. He has done it consistently in college and the NFL.

He can play from the pocket. He is extra mobile. He makes good decisions. For his NFL career he has a 104.5 career average qb rating.

Baker's career qb rating 87.8. Baker's career completion % is 61.6. Watson's is 67.8.

If we make this deal. Watson has to take us to the Super Bowl. He is only 26. You would have to feel he would get us there at some point.

Can Baker? Maybe. Maybe not.

j/c:



As it's written, I feel like the first sentence negates everything else that follows. But I get what he is trying to say, it just was worded poorly, IMO.

Showing remorse or a desire to atone means you're admitting guilt. He's claiming innocence. Double jeopardy does not apply to grand jury findings, so it's possible for charges to be brought in the future. Doing what you prescribe would be the additional evidence required to bring this to a trial.

j/c...

I would guess we can get a second round pick for Baker based on what Washington gave up for Wentz.

I heard all the way back in October from a family friend (who’s connected with the team) to watch for us getting Watson. Didn’t think much of it then. Think more of it now.

Hmm.

I assumed Baker would be included in any deal w/ Houston but it certainly doesn't have to be case.

I think they like Davis Mills.

Do you have any idea what it's like to be "big man on campus" and spend most of your adult life with women throwing themselves at you? I'm not saying the women in the lawsuits did, but if you are used to women doing that, and then these women are rubbing on you, I can see how he may have read the signals wrong.

Again, I'm not saying this is the case. I'm saying that it could be the case. That's not an excuse for the behavior, but he's not necessarily a monster.

A big, spoiled, horny "kid", apparently so. At the minimum.

I don't even necessarily want him on the team, but I don't think your argument should only apply to Hunt and Myles if that's the one you're going with.

The team will do their investigation and see if they are comfortable with what they find.

j/c:

Listening to the radio right now and they are discussing the trade and who would be the untouchables. Ward and Garrett are repeatedly brought up. But not Chubb. Would he be someone willing to be included in the Texans really wanted him? Then running in back (no pun intended) with Hunt and Johnson??

I'd have to say yes at this point.

Chubb is a no go for me. You trade for Watson because you have Chubb.

So if the entire deal hinged on Chubb being included, you'd walk away? Interesting. I'm not firm on my leaning of "yes" in this situation but in order to get someone like Watson, giving up established assets like Chubb can sometimes be a part of it.

Still, at this point, I don't think the Browns are frontrunners but it fascinating to think about.

yea there would be bigger issues outside of berea than there were Jan 6th if Chubb was traded.

-----Next Question-----


Would Stefanski change his offense to match Watson's skillset or would he keep the offense the same and waste Watson like Stefanski has wasted several other premium WRs?

Lol

What amazes me is that this is the same fan base that gave the Steelers grief for years, and rightly so, for having a scum bag as their QB. Now they want to welcome a different scum bag with open arms. Sad.

If a jury did not find him guilty, then I see no problem with him. It doesn't sound to me as if he "forced" anyone. Maybe he was aggressive, but in the end it was not rape or sexual battery. It would appear to me that these women consented at some point, and were not forced. When someone gets their day in court, and is not charged, I do not listen to what people think should happen to them. If he was guilty of a crime, he should be punished. But he was not found guilty, and all those virtue signaling, are wasting their time.

This guy is a true franchise QB, the Browns should do everything in their power to get him. Except trading Chubb.

What was Big Ben convicted of?

Nothing, but because he was on a hated rival in the minds of Browns fans he was guilty. Watson since he isn't on a hated rival gets a free pass.

So if we never anything about Roethlisberger’s issues then we are good?

I’m safe.

https://twitter.com/deshaunwatson/status/464596035206389760

Easy answer Watson.

Hand in glove fit.

IMO the Browns are all over this deal. Haslam is the guy who would make the call.

He would do it.

So IMO there is a good chance this happens.

There is definitely a non zero chance it happens. Watson gets to choose his spot though so it doesn’t even really matter what we are willing to offer.

read the date....


Deshaun Watson
@deshaunwatson
Cleveland Browns making moves forreal!

10:41 PM · May 8, 2014·Twitter for iPhone

Some people have minimum bar they set. Some people don't.

Ad hominen still very much alive and well here, eh? This and the gaslighting are the things I don’t miss.

If any of you want Watson, that’s your choice. Just remember how you felt about Ben and then think about how you now want Watson.

What matters the most to you?

So beating up a pregnant girl is above or below said line?

Apples to oranges is not apples to apples.

Was Deshawn suspended for his actions? Did he apologize for his actions? Was he shunned by the league and actually out of the league while every team in the NFL were refusing to sign him? Was he in the situation of only one team willing to sign him at a fraction of the price he would be getting had that not have taken place?

But you see, DeShawn is a good QB so none of those things apply to him. I'm not against a player or person getting a second chance in life, but first they must address and be punished for what they did in the first place. Not be rewarded for it.

22 women have accused Watson, 22. Let that sink in for a m minute. And he has done nothing but play innocent and get those fat paychecks the entire time. Are you really trying to compare the two as being even close to the same thing?

j/c:

Watson won't be in a Browns uniform for a variety of reasons, many of them already discussed, and I'm glad. For any one or all of those reasons, I haven't really considered if I would be morally against having him here. It's a non-issue. Nor do I know if it would be a moral issue for me in general when thinking about personnel. Probably not. If I used a character or criminal litmus test for any impact player we might bring in, then where do we draw the line?

The interesting part of the conversation (for me) is that line. Is it okay or not okay to bring in a player based on: number of criminal complaints, criminal or civil issues, history of behavior, violence against women vs assault/battery in general vs rampant drug issues vs weapons charges vs accusations in college, possible missed time later in the season due to legal obligations, ones that deserve second chances vs ones who don't etc?

In other words, do we care more about a scumbag being in a Browns uniform (speaking in general) or the possibility that scumbag could be the piece to get us to a Superbowl (I don't think Watson is that answer specifically).

Would you rather have a great team with a few criminals, "reformed criminals", ingrates, reprobates and malcontents OR an average team that doesn't have those issues? That's a front office thing, and I trust this front office. In a perfect world, a sports team could be morally clean and formidable at the same time. Good luck.

It's football, not family or church. So, I don't put a lot of thought into the moral implications of signing a possible criminal or thief to a sports team. Those thought are best served elsewhere. I can be personally offended and disgusted based on my faith, but I'm not sure I'm all that offended in general by anything anymore when it comes to athletes (or other professions).

If any player came in and was a major influence on the Browns getting to the Superbowl, I suspect many in the fanbase would quickly forget or rationalize that player's criminal issues.

That being said, I'm still glad Watson probably won't be a Brown.

jmho

I don't care if it is 2, 22 or 222. I believe he is innocent until proven guilty in court.


I'd rather not acquire him for the Browns because I think the price is too high, and it puts too many eggs in his basket. All it takes is one stupid injury and we are set back years from the draft capitol we tossed at this.

Sounds logical. Accuse 22 women of lying to believe one man. But then that happened in 2016 and once again in 2020 so I'm not surprised.

You don't apologize when you have pending cases. That's like 1st class of pre-law stuff.

Having your name dragged through the mud for months/years isn't nothing. Especially if you didn't do what they said you did.

There's video of Hunt doing what he did. There's no hard evidence of Watson doing what it's claimed that he did.

Do you believe in innocence until proven guilty or not? It's the basis of our legal system.

....and it looks like we just traded for Amari Cooper, so I need to check that out.

I don't really want to trade for Watson anyways.

I don't want this rapist on our team.

I believe that 22 accusers is overwhelming. If you don't and think 22 women are lying, that's your choice.

thanks to the cooper trade, it's safe to say we can't afford Watson.

We are all in on Baker and if he stinks it up we will draft a QB next year.

JUST SAY "HELL NO"

No need to get more complicated than that. Good grief, guys wanted to nail Baker to the cross because he got drunk and ran from the police for about 2.8 yards.... And now people want to embrace a serial sexual predator? And folks want to suggest that what Hunt did, one time, never before or since, is worse than a repeated pattern of deviant, sexual exploitive behavior that runs into the 20s???

Most Browns fans have hated on therapist in Pittsburgh for the last 20 years... Because he's a POS human who got away with rape.... And we think it's cool and groovy because Watson might be an upgrade at QB?

Hell no.

I don't think this is the case whatsoever.

QFT. One thing about this topic is that we are in 100% agreement.

ok, how do you clear up 40 million in cap space after we just traded for Cooper?

Baker's cap his is 18.5 mill

we still have to sign several other players plus our draft picks.

j/c...

The investigation of Watson has been ongoing for a year or more.

They listened to both sides. No criminal charges were filed.

I don't think it is fair to call him a rapist. If that were the case charges would have been made. Nobody ever mentioned rape.

This is a Haslam decision. And a Watson decision.

I did not hear the evidence. I have to go to the legal system to determine that.

I have read an account by one of the therapists. Creepy by she was clear he never touched her. Never forced her.

No charges.

Each fan can make their own decision. Haslam, Berry and Watson will decide what happens.

My guess is Watson will do all he can to recreate his identity. He may be do community service and be involved in all kinds of charities.

I do not feel I can pass judgement when I don't know both sides and all the evidence one way or the other. The 22 cases many have already been dropped or settled.

He will play. The NFL I guess can suspend him. But with no criminal charges and all witnesses interviewed. What case can be made?

Until or if he is a Brown. What is there?

The Cooper trade doesn’t hurt their cause IMO

Well Ben was never charged with rape... Yet I think it is commonly accepted that the reason is NOT because he didn't rape anyone.

I don't believe Watson was ever accused of raping these 20 plus women.... He was a sexual predator and used his name, position, power to exploit these women. Over and over and over and over again. As I said.... This is a serial pattern of behavior. It is not OK. I'm not gonna shrug my shoulders and act like it doesn't amount to much because he wasn't charged.

Drop your BS spin. I never accused a single person of lying. You keep your words in YOUR mouth.

I said he is innocent until proven guilty. They are accusing him of things he has a right, a basic human right, to defend himself against with the idea that until THEY can prove he is guilty he is not.

The narrative plays to your agenda so he must be guilty. This is my shocked face.

So the fact they couldn't assemble a strong enough case to bring him to trial means he's innocent? I guess O.J. was innocent too and he was brought to trial. I mean a jury didn't convict him, right?

Here's the bottom line. You either think 22 women are lying and he's telling the truth or you don't. This isn't a criminal trial. It isn't about sending someone to prison. It's about deciding if you think those 22 women are lying and he's a player you can support and want on your team. I think he's a liar and did a lot of the things he is being accused of. I don't want to see him wearing a Browns uniform.

Watson to Cooper!!! TD!!!

we at least make ourselves highly competitive in the sweepstakes. Great O line, Great RBs, solid TE's, and now an above average WR core (assuming landry leaves). we still can go out and trade mayfield or landry, and still have possibly a low 20/high 30 pick to get another WR or DT's.

i dont think any other team except the Bucs can offer what we have on offense.

We were not part of the investigation. I don't know what was presented?

Both sides had their chance to present evidence. I never heard what was presented.

I don't anything about Ben. I never followed it. It is not relevant to Watson.

This has been investigated by prosecutors and heard from in a court of law.

Charges would have been filed. He would have had to go to a trial to determine guilt. This did not even get that far.

The Browns are doing their own investigation. They almost drafted him.

They have to decide. IMO the Browns will make an offer.

This place has become even more disgusting.

Time for another leave of absence.

j/c if my math is somewhat accurate

we would have to cut/trade Tretter, Landry, Baker, Hooper, Keenum somehow resign Clowney to have the money for Watson

Bonus: no one knows how long the NFL will suspend Watson. It could be 6 games to an entire year.

Here is video of Joe Mixon.

https://www.cnn.com/videos/sports/2016/12/17/joe-mixon-video-oklahoma-newday.cnn

Hard evidence. Sickening.

What was presented in court on Watson? I don't know.

There's no spin to it. I mean you can read what you posted can't you?


There you have it. If you still believe that he is innocent, then you must believe they are lying. It's basic math.


So you don't have the right to come to the common sense conclusion that 22 women can't all be lying? So I guess O.J. is innocent too?


So my narrative is that there's an overwhelming set of circumstantial evidence that he did at least some of these things and I don't want that person associated with the Browns. You see, you could point to almost every major corporation in America and say they wouldn't hire him with a ten foot poll because they wouldn't want that baggage hanging over their heads and emanate that type of corporate image.

Then there's people like you that can't seem to do the math on it.

As of now he's trying to buy his way out of any of it seeing the light of day.

18 of 22 plaintiffs were ready to settle with Deshaun Watson; four holdouts blocked trade to Dolphins

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...four-holdouts-blocked-trade-to-dolphins/

The Dolphins answer was that he if he could pay them off to keep them quiet, they wanted him. There were eight holdouts so they refused to go through with the deal.

Now that's what I call character.

There's no spin to it. I mean you can read what you posted can't you?



I CAN read what I posted and I know what I said. I never mentioned the women, I never accused them of lying, I never said they were lying. You spin it to make it sound like I did. Just because you think something does not make it so.

He has not been proven guilty. He hasn't even been charged with a crime (which is the first step in due process). I know you don't believe in due process. You must believe in lynch em cause someone said he did something.

keep your BS spin to yourself and don't tell other people what they believe.

If you still believe he's innocent then you believe they're lying. This isn't complicated.

He tried to pay them all off but couldn't get 8 of the 22 to agree to it. Yeah, he sounds innocent. Use your brain man.

Innocent until proven guilty.

I know you think you are the smartest person in the room but you are not.

See when you accuse someone of something you have the burden of proof. They have not, at this point, proven anything. They did not even have enough proof to cause an indictment, at least at this juncture.

Pay offs are not proof of guilt. Sometimes they are just the cost of doing business and cheaper than attorney fees.

Yeah, that's bad tape. It occurs after about 30 minutes of the witch throwing out racial slurs and staying in Mixon's face at the restaurant.

There were a lot people involved in this investigation.

Including the NFL. We shall see what they decide.

Why after a year of looking at this were no charges filed? Was there a crime or not?

Yeah, all you really have to do is believe that 22 women are lying.

Well O.J. is innocent to since he wasn't convicted.

Yeah, all you have to do is believe our legal system is wrong and should require the accused to prove their innocence.

Have not put any thought about what I would do/think if we traded for watson, right now I am set on Baker as our Qb.

I have little doubt that both ben and deshaun did what they were accused of doing.

What watson did was definitely sleazy and creepy. Depending on exactly what he did it, was somewhere between obnoxious but not illegal at all to a misdemeanor to a felony.
What rothlisberger did was a felony, then he committed another felony to cover it up.

All I am saying is that with fame and money comes privilege. Like it or not.

So that makes it ok to punch a woman?

I don't care if he she spit in his face. You don't a woman.

jc

sign Watson. then sign antonio brown. lets be all the way reckless. make it happen, Berry!

I'm gonna sit next to Nancy Reagan on this one: Just Say No.

OJ was charged and went to court. I don't think he was innocent, but that's how it went. Watson has not been charged, so comparing the two is foolish. I have friends who personally witnessed Ben's antics, that's why I hate him. If Watson was charged with a crime, my feelings would be different. You say if you think he is innocent, then you think all 22 are lying. That is a moot point. The investigation involved all 22 and there were no charges. So in the end, maybe they weren't lying, but instead embellishing the story some. If you don't believe there are women that would do this type of thing for financial gain, you must live under a rock.

I doubt Brown.

But I believe the Browns with Haslam's blessing are all over Watson. I can not say what will happen because Watson makes the last call.

Adding Cooper helps.

I really think this could happen and soon. Like this coming week.

This stuff about the Bucs looking at Baker. Tells me much is unknown about Baker and the Browns.

All the others Trubisky, Cousins, Garopollo I don't think they were considered upgrades to Baker. Watson is and at 26 he is a long term solution.

Baker is on a prove it year.

So IMO the Watson noise is for real.

Brother of Mitchell.

If the courts did not find enough evidence to convict Watson then I see no issue with the Browns bringing him in an upgrading the roster.

I'm sure this has been stated 1 million times: We had the chance to take Watson in 2017 and passed.

Nothing left to say.

Except what has happened since then.

The nfl has their own set of rules that are separate

And, of course, that should be taken into consideration during trade negotiations for any team, unless the league behind the scenes has let teams know that his year off in 2021 and money lost will count as time served.

Edit: I don't know if Watson lost money in 2021.

If all of this is true, as for cost, my guess is Baker, Hunt and 2 first rounders. Maybe another lower round pick of some sort.

What we think is the trade package or what it should be is a moot subject. The Texans will have their demand and either someone will meet that demand or the Texans will adjust - not to what we think is fair. The word on the street is the Texans want three 1st round picks and three second round picks or a collection of players in that 2nd round category. Cooper just drew a 5th round pick and the swap of 6th round picks. The Texans asking price is obviously much higher than a Cooper. If he Browns are hedging on the three 2nd round picks then most certainly names like Ward or Chubb or Garrett will have to be part of the conversation. The Carolina Panthers have already included Christain McCaffrey in the talks so its go big or stay home. Especially considering the Browns only have the single 1st round picks over 3 years, the pot is going to have to be made sweeter by adding 1-2 starters. At least in the first offering if the Browns want consideration - then you have to worry about Watson green lighting the deal.

The Browns are still very weak at WR - hurting big time on the DL - and IMHO, have the Stefanski stigma of a run first offense with multiple TE sets for a QB that will expect to be throwing for over 4,000 yards. If I was Watson, that would absolutely need to be addressed before I agreed to any deal with the Browns.

He made his base salary... think it was $10.5m or something....

No thank you! I have no desire to see this POS on the team. He is a sexual predator. Worse than tiny Ben. I have been a Browns fan since 1967 when I was five but the minute they sign Watson I will quit them in a heartbeat. Yeah, I know, they won't care. But I will NOT be a fan of a team that willingly signs a predator like Watson. Baker took us to the playoffs two years ago and WON a game against the Squealers. Knocking tiny ben out of the playoffs for his last chance. That alone earns him one more year to show and prove in my book. But of course, everyone wants to dump him and go back to the good old days when we didn't have a QB and went through them like Grant through Richmond. How many have we gone through since the return? 50? I didn't want to draft Baker in the first place but he has shown he can get it done IF he is healthy and IF we give him the tools needed to do so. Even if that weren't the case I would still take him or any of our other former QB's over Watson.

Watson was not found convicted of any charges. In this Country you are still innocent until proven guilty. If the courts do not find him guilty he should be treated the same.

Sorry this smells like Bull manure to me. We've been through this before. Agents using us to get interest in their client.

Watson just is not the look the Browns are looking to have. Baker is our Franchise QB pure and simple the lone who don't see Baker day to day are the ones that have us upgrading. They hate Baker for some reason. The Steeler fans in the Jounalism front just hate the fact the Browns are taking over the Division....they know the Bengals are short lived as Burrows gets killed each season Baker's big mistake...playing hurt cause he will do anything for THE TEAM!

It wasn't just he wasn't convicted... the man wasn't charged... there is a lot of smoke obviously, so I feel there's something creepy... but the grand jury felt there was not enough evidence to even have a trial... 9 women tried to bring criminal charges...

now he has to deal with the 22 civil counts....

There's civil charges and you can bet the NFL is going to take their pound of flesh. All the "God delivers the Truth" or whatever nonesense Watson was putting out there can vanish in an instant.

As I mentioned in the wrong thread, I don't know how I feel about this. A big reason is because of the lack of hard evidence. To be fair, Watson could be 11x the monster Big Ben is. To jump to that conclusion right now and aggressively call out any poster with a differing view (not to mention conveniently forget about the tenet of innocent until proven guilty) requires a fair amount of virtue signaling where patience should be. It also requires ignoring the various precedents already set that have him playing sooner than many are comfortable with, and the whole thing swept under the rug soon after.

Where there is smoke, there could be fire.. do you really want to bet your teams future on a guy that at the very least has been irresponsible and careless? (that's hundreds of millions in a bet...)

Baker is getting beat on hard for having a bad year.. No mention of how banged up he was.. Everyone pretty much loved him the year before. We protected him, he was healthy and did a great job..

But damn, get injured and people wanna throw him out with the trash...

put that year into context. the Texans defense was hot garbage, O line was trash, they traded away D-Hop, and he's playing with below average talent. i believe Will Fuller also got suspended around mid season.

and in that year, he put up 4800 yards, 33 passing TDs, 7 picks, 8.9 yards per pass, 70% completion, 444 yards rushing, and 3 rushing TDs. only lost 1 fumble.

other than his rookie season, where he was leading the league in passing TD's before getting injured, he's been healthy and played all 16 games 3 out of the 4 seasons active (obviously didn't play 2021).

here's the kicker: he did all that despite being sacked 49 times. still had a 112 QB rating, and 63 QBR.

for his career: 14,539 passing yards, 8.3 average, 104 TDs, 36 picks, 67.8% completion, 104.5 QB rating. combined with 1677 yards rushing, 17 rushing TD's, only 3 fumbles lost.

in comparison, Baker mayfield best year was 2020.

he had 62.8% completion, 3,563 passing yards, 7.3 per pass, 26 TD's, 8 picks, 95.9 QB rating, 65.5 QBR, with 164 yards rushing, 1 TD, 1 fumble lost.

for his career: 61.6% completion, 14,125 passing yards, 7.3 per pass, 92 TD's, 56 picks, 87.8 QB rating, combined with 571 rushing yards, 5 rushing TDs, 2 lost fumbles.

____________

what we are talking about is a undeniable upgrade at the QB position. if there's a way to get Watson to agree to come here, we have to do it. deshaun Watson is the definition of a true dual threat QB. he's better than Lamar, and most likely better than Burrow. We have to keep pace with the AFC arms race if we plan on competing, because right now the QB is what will hold this team back.

i understand that the likely scenario is rolling with Baker. i get it. but if we can get Watson, we have to. because i'm already wondering what sort of excuses people will roll out when Baker can't seem to connect with Amari Cooper.

Deshaun watson doesn't seem to have a problem getting his best player the ball. Watson also spreads the ball around, and we be a perfect fit in stefanski's offense.

If he is not convicted of any charges - that means that the state can't put him in jail.

That doesn't mean I have to root for a team he plays for...

The Browns wont be considered real contenders for the SB until.the QB position is
Upgraded. I dont see any journalists in print, social media, NFL Network , ESPN
Having the Browns " take over the division"
I think.they either are going to pick the Bengals and Ravens to win the AFC North.
I wouldnt just say the Bengals are short lived. They have 50 million.in cap space
Which is rare for a SB team. And Burrow will only improve .They will.upgrade the oline.
The Ravens were decimated by injuries on both sides of the ball. They are a SB contender if healthy
Watson is a upgrade over Baker. Baker can only succeed if everything around him is
Perfect. Great QBs can carry teams in their shoulders when things are breaking down
The Browns window to accomplish anything is closing fast.
The AFC just got harder with Wilson in Denver now. The Chargers added firepower
On defense with Mack.
As long as Mayfield is the QB nobody in the AFC is really fearing the Browns.
His inability to be clutch in the 4th q. Is no secret.

So you have to ask yourself, if you were Watson and control where you will be playing - which team would you choose?

Cleveland - one of the best rushing attacks in football - weak at WR after signing a #1 but the other slots are still up in the air (Cooper #40 PFF rank) - the #8 PFF rated offensive line in 2021 - to play in a run first offensive scheme - has the 14th rated defense in 2021

or

Tampa Bay - questions at RB unless Fournette resigns - two of the best WR's in the NFL under contract (Godwin #13 PFF rank, Evans #21 PFF rank) - the #2 PFF rated offensive line in 2021 - to play for a pass first and often offensive scheme - has the 5th rated defense in 2021

The record shows what elite quarterback play can do in the playoffs.

This is about ceiling versus ceiling.

IMO the Browns are behind Baker and will go forward with him this year. Unless they see an opportunity to raise the ceiling of the position long term.

Watson represents that. He is 26. His career so far has him playing at an elite level.

His contract is actually friendly as far as top qb money and it is locked in until 2026.

It is up to Haslam to decide if they should trade for him.
A grand jury and the FBI investigated. They listened to both sides. Evidence was presented. Witnesses were interrogated. It went through the legal system. No charges were made.

It is up to the NFL to determine their policy about behavior. That is pending as well as civil cases.

IMO over time it becomes about results on the field. Not moral right and wrong. People may disagree but that is what will happen. Robert Kraft was paying for sex. Got caught and nothing happened. Oh! but he is an owner. Jerry Jones now has a civil case on a daughter out of wedlock. Daniel Snyder. Did the league do anything? Look what was going on behind the doors in Washington. Was it rude behavior or criminal behavior?

The Grand Jury is closed door. Results are not public. None of us were there. We can take the moral high ground if we choose.

In the end Watson will play.

When put like that, Tampa is a solid choice. Kick in the fact that Tampa is a much nicer place to live and has a coach that is very creative in the passing game, the choice becomes easier.

It's Watson's issues off the field that concerns me the most.

If the Browns added Watson they would also be dealing with the carry over of more than 20 civil lawsuits dealing with claims of sexual misconduct and assault. How much of Watson's time will be need to deal with the issues that are going to follow him, wherever he goes..?

Also, Watson is now a marked man regardless of where he lands...what happens when the first charge surfaces claiming that Watson might have allegedly done something inappropriate while dating..?

Watson will carry baggage with him wherever he goes and how Watson handles off the field claims might affect his play on the field...it will be an unknown until he proves that he is capable of blocking alleged issues from his performance on the field..

Teams will be forced to help Watson rebuild his off the field reputation

just clicking ...

I know there are no actual legs to any of this, and everyone with a Twitter account has "inside sources" and all. But I have a question. A big hypothetical.

Say we do end up trading for Watson. So, Baker is somewhere, whether that is Houston or not (they may like Mills). I am sure most everyone thinks Watson will be suspended for some period of time. Four games, 6, 8, whatever. Who would we put out there under center while Watson is serving his suspension? Keenum? Or do we try to replace Case this year with Mariota or Trubisky or someone (I would be on board with that no matter who we have start at QB, even Baker)?

j/c

Go get him Saints

It doesn’t matter what teams offer really. Watson is going to pick a spot.

"The price hasn’t changed – three first-round picks and more"

If Watson were smart he would pick one team so that that team could pay less for him.

Completely agree with you... I like Baker... pray he does well... but Watson is a clear upgrade...

I'm curious to see what the NFL does... I've heard some say that he likely won't be suspended because he's essentially been out a year already (of course he choose to sit out).

If there's a chance to get him I think you have to explore it... I still don't expect us to get him, but I appreciate the FO exploring the option, because he'd be a huge upgrade at QB.... and that's not bashing Baker... there are few QBs better than Watson

Three firsts is steep....

Agreed. If the team can move on from Baker, they will. Not saying it's the right or wrong decision, but it is what it is.

Good thing Baker turned off his social media accounts. Phew!

Criminal court cases are about what you can prove in court, not about what happened. And no, I don't believe the tired old line, "They're all a bunch of gold diggers" to explain away 22 women. That's why it matters. It's not one woman, or even ten women. At some point people need to step up and admit the man is a scum bag. What number would that be for you? 30,50 women? People such as yourself keep bringing up criminal charges and criminal convictions.

That has nothing to do with it actually. It has to do with do you want all of the heat, the negative attention and upcoming civil lawsuits associated with this guy? Because those lawsuits have been filed. They're pending and they're coming. We will look like the laughing stock of the NFL. We will be torn to shreds in the press and among the NFL fan base. This will be a huge distraction to this team. If this FO trades for him, we will deserve every bit of it. Then you can explain to your wife and possibly daughters why you support this guy.

He tried to pay them off already. Some of them refused to settle so they continue. Are you suggesting he tried to silence and settle with all these women when he did nothing wrong? Well alrighty then. I wonder why even after the criminal charges were dropped that Houston still wants to dump they guy? As hard as it is to find a franchise QB why would they still be doing that? Probably because they know a lot of things you don't.

Because he refused to play for them?

Sure, that's it. Sounds like a pretty good cover story and it's perfectly reasonable to believe that coming from a man who has 22 women making accusations he keeps denying. Becase you know, 22 women are lying and he's the only one telling the truth. He most certainly sounds like the credible one in the story.

He requested the trade before the accusations.

It doesn’t take a genius to see that the Texans were/are the worst run organization in the league.

So now you try to change the subject. How many players who request a trade sit out the season? Let's look at it from a strategic point of view.

Do you really think that a billion dollar+ corporation, which is what every NFL team actually is, are obligated contractually to pay a player that refuses to play? You don't actually think that there aren't clauses in NFL contracts that allow teams not to pay players that refuses to play the game?

Because Watson was paid his base salary of 1054 mil. last year.

That's what you would have to believe to say Watson refused to play. That doesn't make sense.

Watson; "I refuse to play for you."

Texans; "That's okay. We're going to pay you your base salary anyway."

Yeah, that happened.

It should also be noted that of the main teams thought to be considering going after Watson - CAR, NOS, CLE, TBB, PHI, and SEA - only CLE is actually a run first team with SEA wanting to be a run first team according to the published riff between Wilson and Carroll. IMHO, Watson is not going to go to a team that reduces his skill set of passing the ball.

I believe that the words "thought to be" are the most important ones in your post.

Do you think the most analytically inclined team in the league would not adjust their offense with a top five QB?

I think Watson requested a trade, the accusations came out, and then the team paid the problem to go away. If the accusations never happened Watson would have been on a different team for the 2021 season.

How do you know the truth?

The Grand Jury was closed to the public. You were not part of the investigation that has been on going for a year. An investigation that also included the FBI.
And the NFL has been monitoring the whole thing as well as conducting their own investigation.
You did not hear testimony of the witnesses or evidence presented. Was there a crime? Not bad behavior a crime?

So you believe the Grand Jury was crooked? Or, do you believe what you read(if you read) from all 22 cases. Or, was no crime committed?

The message businesss is not squeaky clean. Robert Kraft was there for a happy ending. Of course there are therapists who are above board and professional. But let's not act like the message business can not be shady.

Watson refused to play for the Texans before any of this came out. So take that part out of the this. It was not a cover story.

You want assume guilt for a crime when the courts said no crime was commited. Was there a crime?

Now if want to believe he exposed himself. Or, exhibited creepy behavior. I guess you have to ask what is a crime? He was referred to some of these therapists from my understanding. Was there an expectation? Did he take the towel off?

I do not think we can look from 10,000 feet and assume we know what took place.

As far as media circus? News gets old fast. I don't see Hunt getting hammered. I don't see Tareek Hill getting dragged through the mud. When he broke the arm of his two year old son. Or, Adrian Peterson hearing much after it was proven he was beating his son to teach him a lesson.

I don't know Watson. But before this came out he had a good reputation. It will be up to him to rebuild his reputation.

You as well as anyone else can decide how you feel. I have mixed feelings because I don't him. I don't know what really happened. And I don't know the women who filed complaints.

All I can do is trust the grand jury process that they found no reason to support that a crime was committed.

That certainly makes a lot more sense. Or the Texans refused to play him after all this came out.. By refusing to play him they would have been obligated to pay him, which paying him is what they did.

Houston doesn't want to dump him... Watson refused to play for them again... after Bill O'Brien was fired Watson didn't like how the FO handled the GM and Coaching search as they didn't include him in any of the decision making.... So Watson said he'd never play for them again and asked to be traded. After he asked to be traded all the stuff with the accusations came out.

Yeah, the team paid over 10mil. to someone who refused to play. I've got some ocean front property in Utah for sale as well. It sounds like you've decided to take the word of someone who claims 22 women are lying.

What would you have Houston do? Because of the accusations they got put in a horrible spot... he was un-tradable because so much was unknown... he refused to play... so could they have fined him or refused to pay him? Sure, but that would have been mess as hell and the fan base would have been really ticked (of course a lot of the fans are pissed at the current owner anyway).

So the Texans did what I think was the only real solution... they paid him his base rate to basically keep his rights so they could trade him if his legal battles got more clear...

I think if Watson said he would play again for the Texans, they would name him the starter immediately.

I think he's a creep and did something... obviously wasn't enough evidence to bring criminal charges... but as I just posted, it was a no win situation for the Texans... I personally think they did about the best they could with the situation...

The FO has made a ton of mistakes... but there was no great way to handle Watson once the accusations came out

Actually, no I do not think Stefanski would change or adjust his offense for a top five QB. He's old school and believes ball control and a strong defense while scoring 17-20 points is the formula to win in the NFL. Stefanski wins games but when behind he's at a gross disadvantage because he refuses to use the skill set of his players. Now, in 2020 he had OBJ, Landry, Higgins and Hooper and was in the bottom 1/2 of the league in passing. Stefanski won and made the playoffs with his scheme. In 2021, all the same players, though the injury bug hit, but the Browns passing offense regressed to the bottom 1/3 of the league. In 2019, the Browns were 14th in passing and 17th in 2018. The Browns passing offense has steadily regressed from what it was in 2019.

So, NO, I don't think the most analytically inclined team in the league will adjust their offense with a Stefanski in charge. Waited all year last year for him to make some much needed adjustments that never came.........

It isn't a tough situation at all. You don't get paid if you refuse to play. It's actually very cut and dry. If you refuse to play you have broken your contractual obligation to play the game. However, if you refuse to play the player, it's you who are still obligated to pay him. He at that point would not be at fault for sitting on the bench.

If the prosecutors could not indite then I see Watson as an innocent man. Innocent UNTIL proven guilty. That is what our Countries standards are. Not I agree with 22 women over 1 man. If he did obvious atrocities there would have been an indictment. The Grand Jury ruled and now he is considered an innocent man. Who are we to hold him to another standard? If the Browns trade for him I will be excited because if that were to happen the FO and the coaches must see him as an upgrade. I mean Mayfield is not a saint either, He supported a murder last year to not get executed and caused the victims family additional pain.

Again, you wanted Stefanski to pass more last year when the QB was broken and/or terrible and the two tackles were hurt and/or terrible. We all know.

and thats the crutch of the issue: morals.

i've said when the news first dropped that at minimum, what Watson did was creepy as all hell. but being a creep and being immoral isn't illegal. he will probably face some sort of suspension - maybe 4-6 weeks - but who knows?

but no matter how i feel about that, he's not facing criminal charges. and at the end of the day, this is football. we're not voting for an elected official, or asking Watson to run a church. we need him to play QB and lead us to deep playoff runs.

so just from the pure football aspect, if we can find a way to restructure Landry's contract and have him and Cooper as the top 2 targets on a team, Watson will do wonders. Hell, in the most likely scenario that we keep Baker, he's REALLY not gonna have any excuses.

but thats why we have to try and get Watson after all. one QB is already a certified franchise QB, who we can realistically dream about actual division titles and deep playoff runs. the other is "well, he has no excuses now so lets hope he finally proves to be a franchise QB."

MKC is getting torn apart on Twitter for this lol

Another trustworthy source.

I got got 2x in 24 hours

You do realize people are just repeating the same rumor over and over again, right?

There is factual guilt and legal guilt.

We don't know the truth.

The prosecutor and Grand Jury must determine "if" he committed a crime that can be proven in court. They don't determine if he was factually guilty.

If he took a towel off his privates and had an erection? Is that a crime? I don't know?

Humor: George Castanza got a message from a guy. "Jerry something moved."

I have to admit. I was given a gift certificate to a Chinese message place. I am 74. I did not know what to expect. I went there. I stripped to my shorts. I got under a blanket. Woman came in and starting rubbing. She took the blanket off. She was doing my back. Felt fantastic. She started on my legs. Moved my shorts to the side and started messaging my butt cheek. Totally took me off guard. After a bit "something moved." I had to start thinking of Freddie Freeman hitting a homer.

I start to laugh when I think about it.

I don't know the truth of what happened.

The one thing that I would not hold back on is if any violence occured. If he tried to force someone. Or if he did anything physical to them that was not consensual. If he was accused of rape. I would have to believe he would have been indicted. Bill Cosby was indicted.

Now I don't know where this will go. IMO Haslam will give Berry the ok to persue Watson.

We will see what happens sooner than later.

"In the end Watson will play."

And I hope it is with the Browns. I like Baker, and know his injuries hampered his season, along with Oline injuries and many players out due to covid. But Watson is an elite player. He is way better than Baker on every level. Adding him to this roster, gives you the best QB this franchise has seen since Bernie. This is not a slight on Baker, it is the facts about Watson.

Will DW face any additional suspension from the league? If the Browns acquire him in a trade, I am guessing Rodger will throw out a 10-12 game suspension 15 minutes after trade is finalized.....any other trade to otger teams and DW gets time served.

Yet Watson and Baker have the same amount of playoff wins in their career. one

As if that is a measure of anything other than the overall team’s success.

division titles:

Watson - 2
Mayfield - 0

Hmm, do we want a chip on his shoulder Baker in 2022, that half the NFL fandom thinks is inept? Or do we want a creepily scandalized top ten QB who last played in 2020, that may be suspended by the NFL, and still faces a ton of civil suits? I'll ride with 6.

i want the QB who doesn't require a make-believe chip on their shoulder in order to be a consistent winner.

I am seriously conflicted by this question because of Watson’s unique circumstances (ie he masturbated in front of people who did not want that to happen).

If Watson was clean off the field there would not be a question my mind who I would want.

2 of the women claimed forced oral sex. One of them (thru her boyfriend) contacted Watson and offered to keep quiet for 30k.

"If" that is true. I would not want him.

But that sounds more like extortion. I don't care if she was forced I will keep quiet for $30k.

That is issue with this type of thing.

What really happened?

Yeah, nothing wrong with a little good old fashioned indecent exposure.

It appears you want that at any cost.

A measure of success I consider to be not selling your soul for wins at any cost. But that's just me. To do that I would have to try to rationalize that with my daughter. I'm amazed at the people who actually have daughters who would advocate such a thing.

This is what is going through my head:

Do I want the QB who I don’t think is very good and the team doesn’t have a chance to win a championship with or a top five QB in the league (who causes me to do mental gymnastics in order to accept the trade)? My heart is telling me I want Baker. I like him and want him to do well. I will definitely talk myself into him doing well at some point before the season. My head is telling me that I want my team to win at all costs.

I don’t know how to feel. My guess is that when there is more finality to the topic I will have a clearer head.

thats an interesting take. i wonder how you explained to your daughters how you're still a fan of the browns after signing Kareem hunt, who was on video beating a woman. somehow, that was fine, but a guy who just got cleared of criminal charges, no video evidence, and in a he said/she said situation is where you draw the line.


daughter: "omg did you see the video of hunt?
Pit: "yea it was bad. he got suspended and cut from a team for it, but everyone deserves a 2nd chance"

daughter: "omg, did you see watson get accused of sexual assault?"
Pit: "yea, it looks bad. but even though he isn't getting charged, and there is no hard evidence of him committing a crime, i cant possibly cheer for the browns anymore"

you're starting to sound like the dudes who swore up and down they werent gonna watch the NFL due to kneeling, as well as the dudes who claimed they werent gonna watch the browns anymore when the team knelt together.

and yet, you're still here. IF* we sign watson, guess where you'll be?

right here posting on the board.

No - how about adjusting what you are doing instead of advertising it and getting your QB killed week after week.

Some other factors you may wish to consider in this are issues that will be ongoing for a very long time with all of the civil suits involved. In a civil suit you don't have to reach the threshold of "beyond a reasonable doubt". The threshold is much lower. It's a "preponderance of the evidence", which means more likely than not. You will be having some of these suits being paid off with a confidentiality clause included. Most people consider that nothing more than paying for silence. There will be continual national media attention given to all of this. You will have a huge and strong division among the fan base. So the actual "finality to the topic" is a long way off. And if we trade for Watson, all of that will be laying squarely in the shoulders of the Browns decision. There's a much bigger picture to all of this. That's why I strongly suggest people look at this from a big picture.

At that point the question becomes how much is too much to pay for Watson with all of the baggage that's included?

These are all things I have been thinking about.

This is a sad thing to be trying to compare. Some people pay for their actions. Some do not. Hunt paid dearly for his actions. He admitted and apologized for his actions. It caused him to be out of the league due to his actions. When he did come back he made a fraction of what his value as player was because of his actions.

I also taught my daughter everyone is deserving of a second chance if they've paid for and apologized for their mistakes.

So you can save that crap for someone who is too stupid to know the difference.

In contrast, Watson hasn't paid any price for his actions. He was paid for 2021. As of yet he has not been suspended for any of his actions. He will be rewarded for his actions. He has not apologized for his actions.

I'm pretty sure that if your daughters don't see the difference right now, they soon will.

Good luck with that.

And you are right. I'll still be here. And I'll be talking about what scum bags our FO was for signing him. Talking about how we now have a scum bag as a QB. And laughing at all of you every time we see him have to settle and gets judgements against him in court. How you all sold your souls for the mess we are in. You're damned right I'll be here.

That is a good post crfs.

I am also conflicted. Because I don't know what really happened.

Plus I like Baker. I really want him to be successful with the Browns. My dream is he comes back with a MVP season and we sign him to a long term deal.

There is nothing I would like more than that.

But the evidence is clear that Watson is better. He has proven that. If all that had happened was that Watson forced his way out of Texas and these allegations had not happened. I would be all over making this happen.

But I don't really know what the truth is. So, for sure I am conflicted.

Maybe he goes to NO or some other team. Then it all goes away.

Until something happens I am kind of faced with thinking how good we could be with Watson. And having this image that this guy could be a creepy
seedy character.

A better person or a better player? Or does the better person things hold no value?

In a massage parlor? Come on man, we all know what that usually means. Rub and tug. Unless it was supposed to be legit massages and not some shady “co-masturbation” joint. Still takes a certain type of character to even go into those places, the seedy joints

At this point, I don't care what the Browns do, but I will have a hard time rooting for Watson as our QB. I mean I want a Browns Super Bowl as much as anybody, but after waiting so long, I don't want it tainted in any way.

thats fine. but you'll still be here, cheering the team on.

No, that's not what it means. Unless of course that's what you're looking for. No reputable message therapist would endure such a thing.

I highly doubt it. I have a hard time supporting scum bags. After he's gone? Sure. I have a daughter.

Those without sin throw the first stone. You act like you are perfect and others who make mistakes should not ever be given second chances. Also, the court of law said no charges will be filed. How can we hold this man accountable when the court of law said they did not find enough evidence to charge. If a man is not guilty he is innocent until proven. Innocent until proven guilty is our law. Why should we hold him to a higher standard than everyone else?

You obviously haven't been following this thread have you? Once someone pays the price for their mistakes and takes responsibility for it, I think they do deserve a second chance.

I do not agree with rewarding them with a second chance before they do those things. Try to keep up next time.

And no, I have never made unwanted sexual advances, forced a woman to perform oral sex on me or had 1 woman, much less 22 accuse me of those things. Have you?

For the moment I will leave the ethical question.

What would a Browns offer for Watson look like?

Baker, two first rounders, Hunt, and two conditional picks that could be tied to games started by Baker.

They could be second or third rounders. Or, something like a third this year and a second next year.

I am kinda using the Wilson deal as a template.

From the Browns perspective I think they need a ruling on what the NFL will do. The civil cases will run on their own.

I don't know what the other interested teams will offer. But, going in it is expected to be 3 first rounders plus.

So, he is 26. You figure ten years. Can we keep enough talent to around him to win it all?

If Baker goes to the playoffs and wins a game or two. Do the Browns sign him to a big contract? How much?

Here is Watson's contract.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/houston-texans/deshaun-watson-21753/

The bottom line is the courts did not find enough evidence to convict. DeShaun Watson is an innocent man. Thus he must be treated as so.

I mean that's a great take. I agree.

With that said - i think this is a go to line for nearly every Baker hater. It's all about the bottom line. How many wins. How many 4th Q come backs? Strapping the team on his back and doing it DESPITE the team .... I mean, they all forget how many times Baker took the lead in the last 6-7 minutes of a game only to see the other team crush the life out of our defense and waltz down the field and take the lead with too little time on the clock for a KS offense to respond.

Anyway - I digress.

The issue I have with the Watson's behavior is the calculated/serial/repetition of his actions. Maybe it's some of my exposure to corporate training/expectations - but one time, someone with "power" or "influence" - putting a female in pressurized/exploited situation is enough to get you fired. . . . repeating this 22+ times is just flat wrong. Didn't some of the accusers say they ended up having some form of sex with him? Does anyone think that this 22 is the ONLY ones he's ever done this too?

Get a grip people - just coz he's an elite athlete ... IT IS NOT OK.

What Hunt did was wrong. No doubt. It was terrible. It was an isolated one time thing and he paid a huge price for it. There's no-one down playing how wrong it was. But if we have to judge, and without any excuse for Hunt - a one time incident with a female who was chasing him and harassing him DOES NOT COMPARE to a minimum of 22 females being subjected to sexual exploitation.

Who knows how this will end up - but I do not want him on the Browns. That's my perspective and clearly others too..... I don't understand why posters want to insinuate that's a bad take or hypocritical. jmo.

the courts did not find enough evidence to convict. Why do we think we have a moral high ground to the law?

https://awfulannouncing.com/nfl/adam-schefter-deshaun-watson-tweet-truth.html
You don’t have to be a lawyer to understand that a grand jury’s decision not to indict a defendant doesn’t necessarily mean they think that person is innocent. It means that at least a number of people on the jury do not feel there is enough probable cause to move forward with a trial. Unlike a trial jury, a grand jury is not here to determine guilt or innocence.

next up civil lawsuits.

this is far from over.

Let me know how all of that works out after all the civil trials have been conducted. So you're telling me that if you were doing the hiring you would consider an applicant with 22 sexual assault civil cases hanging over his head the same as an applicant who didn't? I didn't think so.

The law doesn't state you should ignore 22 women that have civil suits pending for sexual misconduct. Have you been accused of sexual misconduct by anyone? Saying that's wrong doesn't have anything to do with some moral high ground. It's about actions of a normal human being and having an once of human decency. Those aren't the same thing.

If he can take us to the Super Bowl then I think he's innocent. But its good to know we have Pit, aguy that knows everything about everything to lead us down the path to perfect virtue.

Did Robert Kraft end up getting any NFL punishment for his massage parlor escapades? I'm guessing if Watson gets suspended, he would appeal and point to that as precedent. I'm not sure the NFL would want to re-open up that can of worms. Drop the hammer on the young black man while sweeping the rich white man's indiscretions under the rug? PR nightmare especially while already dealing with the race of HCs/GMs situation.

I'm guessing his punishment, if any, will be minimal unless something new comes up in the civil cases.

All there appears to be is hearsay. There's no smoking gun/incriminating (if not conclusive) video evidence, as there were in the other frequently referenced cases. I haven't heard of any forensic evidence linking Watson to a crime.

Roethlisberger admitted to "making mistakes." Watson has maintained his innocence.

Thanks for proving my point that some people would sell their soul for a SB ring. Even if they aren't sure getting a scum bag QB would do that. It explains a lot about you.

It's illegal to videotape people in a message parlor. Sets up the perfect scenario for a pervert.

I thought he found the women on IG, they agreed to fly in, and they massaged him at his home?

Paying a prostitute for sex is not what Watson is accused of. Again - 100% false equivalence. Just because they are sleazy doesn't mean they are equal or similar.

Are you suggesting he would have videotaped his own criminal activity? Actually some of these women were message therapists he contacted while he was on the road. Whether they cam to his hotel or he went to them I have no idea.

FIFY

And before you pound the 22 women drum again. It is one attorney that looks like he is on a fishing expedition and may have convinced women they were assaulted and could get paid.

Or they could be telling the truth. But since nothing has been proven they are alleged actions he has been accused of.

Well in that case, that's exactly what we need then. A QB with 22 civil suits for sexual misconduct hanging over his head. That sounds like a brilliant business move.

"Jas Brooks, a licensed massage therapist who is currently part of the medical staff for Team USA track and field, said in her statement released by Hardin that she massaged Watson at least 40 times starting in 2018 and "never had a single uncomfortable or inappropriate experience."
Apr 12, 2021

I didn’t suggest that at all.

I pointed it out because this isn’t a massage parlor situation. You have randoms linking up with Watson, either at home or in a hotel, for a massage.

Again, I have made it clear he’s a creep. But being a creep isn’t illegal.

HOUSTON – Eighteen massage therapists who have worked with Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson issued statements Wednesday, casting doubt on the stories of 21 women who are accusing the star player of assault and harassment.

Allegations by the nearly two dozen women suing Watson range from inappropriate touching to coerced sex acts.

Attorney Rusty Hardin, who is representing Watson, said the 18 therapists who issued voluntary statements of support for Watson have worked with him a collective 130 times over the past five years.

TIMELINE: Accusations against Deshaun Watson

“These statements show the other side to this story that has been so lacking in the flurry of anonymous complaints filed by opposing counsel,” Hardin said.

In many of the statements, the women said they never felt uncomfortable while working with Watson. Some said they find it hard to believe that Watson could do the things of which he is accused.

Below are the written statements as released by Hardin.

Myah Roberson
Roberson is a licensed massage therapist, who has been working in Houston for 10 years, primarily on athletes.

“I started working with Deshaun in December 2019 after being referred to him by another therapist. He sent me a screenshot of a diagram that the head trainer of the Texans gave him, highlighting the muscles that needed to be worked on, which included the groin and hamstrings. He asked if I felt comfortable working on those areas and I said yes, because I am used to working on athletes.

During the massage, Deshaun was more comfortable using a towel than draping sheets over the table; this isn’t unusual at all. I have several clients that prefer using a towel over sheet. We began using a towel, and that became the norm. When I saw that the first lawsuit mentioned a towel, I chuckled because I gave him that idea. And it’s not inappropriate because they teach you in massage school that using a towel is okay. Some of these accusations are so ludicrous. I just can’t see him doing any of those things. He was never inappropriate with me. I never felt threatened in any way.”

https://www.click2houston.com/sport...rence-championship-automatic-ncaa-berth/

So where is the truth?

Who to believe?

I do not think we know or will know.

If he's more qualified than every other "applicant" and already been found not guilty of anything criminal, it'd be irresponsible not to consider him from a business standpoint, and Haslam belongs to the business world and Berry is an Econ guy.

I could very well see how Berry could see the black cloud of the civil cases being a market inefficiency to exploit.

How else would you have a chance to acquire a legitimate franchise QB in his prime?

It comes down to how they truly feel about Baker (and Watson), what they know and whether or not they believe Watson, and (sadly) how much he's going to cost.

I'm sure they'd have a plan to rehabilitate his image. If they win with him, they'd likely pick up more than enough bandwagon fans to offset the losses. Plus, a fair number of those currently outraged would probably come back.

It's time to go get Deshaun Watson. Let's get it done. Mary Kay seems to be all in.


The Browns are still exploring a trade for Deshaun Watson, and will have to offer multiple first-round picks, Baker Mayfield and maybe other players
Updated: Mar. 13, 2022, 5:30 p.m. | Published: Mar. 13, 2022, 2:41 p.m.
Mayfield Watson
Baker Mayfield greets Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson following a game in 2018.
854 shares
By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns, who have been doing their due diligence on Deshaun Watson for months, continue to explore a trade for the controversial quarterback, sources tell cleveland.com, but must be prepared to surrender multiple first-round picks, Baker Mayfield and possibly other players.

With a grand jury deciding on Friday not indict Watson on criminal charges in connection with accusations from 22 massage therapists who accuse him of sexual assault and harassment, the Browns have moved forward with their possible strong pursuit of the quarterback they passed on in the 2017 draft. That year, they traded down from No. 12 with the Texans and enabled them to draft him there.


The Browns are still conducting their own thorough investigation into Watson and the allegations, and must not only be comfortable with what they find but also confident that no such accusations will be made in the future.

They must also receive the green light from Browns ownership, who would have to be prepared for the enormous backlash that will accompany such a move.

The Browns would have to put a strong support program in place for Watson, which would have to include working with women’s groups, undergoing counseling and making restitution.

But it wouldn’t be the first time they took a chance on a player with a past, including Kareem Hunt, who was captured on video kicking a woman in the hallway of his downtown Cleveland apartment building. The Browns have helped rehabilitate Hunt and he’s become a positive influence who gives back to the community. He’s still a work in progress, but they’ve surrounded him with a robust and multi-pronged support system and he’s turned himself around.


They gave defensive tackle Malik McDowell a second chance last season despite his criminal past, and he went off the rails after the season when he stepped outside of the Browns’ support structure. The Browns were hopeful they had not only found a tremendous talent, but also changed a life. They are still involved in McDowell’s care and are hopeful he can get well.

It would be the same for Watson, who still has civil suits pending and will likely be suspended by the NFL for the first part of the season under the personal conduct policy. The Browns would have to set forth a comprehensive plan and implement a zero-tolerance policy. It’s not an easy decision, and one they’re taking very seriously.

If they decide to seriously pursue a trade — and they seem to be leaning that way — they’ll have to act fast and come big with an offer to the Texans that will include multiple first-round picks and most likely Mayfield.

They’ll also have to sell Watson — who has a no-trade clause in his contract — on the notion that they’re an elite quarterback away from winning a Super Bowl. They can point to the championship-caliber defense, running game and offensive line.


They strengthened their case considerably Saturday by trading with Dallas for four-time Pro Bowl receiver Amari Cooper, who will make any quarterback look good, let alone one of the best in the NFL.

They’re also trying to keep Jarvis Landry by lowering his $16.379 cap hit, while also granting him permission to seek a trade. If he knows Watson might be coming and Cooper is here, he might want to stay.

The Browns will also continue to add to the receiving pile either in free agency or the draft. It’s a deep class, and even without a first-round pick, they could land a good one in the second or third round.

Their trade offer will obviously have to include Mayfield, who wouldn’t be sticking around with Watson here. But unlike some of the other teams interested in Watson, the Browns have a starting-caliber quarterback to throw into the mix. The Browns, who would save Mayfield’s $18.86 million salary for 2022, might have to surrender other key players to pull it off, but if they really want to win a Super Bowl — and they do — they might have to acquiesce.


If the Texans don’t want Mayfield, the Browns would have to trade him elsewhere — and there would be suitors.

Another player who comes to mind in the trade package is two-time Pro Bowl cornerback Denzel Ward. There’s no way the Browns would want to part with their lockdown corner, but if the Texans insist and it gets the deal done, they shouldn’t rule it out.

The Browns have shown they can draft defenders, and they’d find a way to replace him, perhaps even in this draft. They’d also have another starting cornerback on a rookie contract in Greg Newsome II, and not for the $19 million a year Ward will get in his upcoming extension. As it is, he’s heading into his fifth-year option year at $13.294 million.

New Texans coach Lovie Smith is a defensive coach, and might see the wisdom in such a move. With Watson averaging $39 million a year through 2025 and Myles Garrett’s big cap hits kicking in for 2023, the Browns will need to save some pennies somewhere. Watson — who’s five months younger than Mayfield and will turn 27 in September — also has an out in his contract after 2023, with only $5.4 million in dead cap space thereafter.


According to NFL Network, the Saints and Panthers have already made offers for Watson, and other teams are willing to give up the three first-round picks the Texans are seeking. Watson also plans to meet with any potential suitors before making a decision.

If the Browns bring him in for a visit — and the chances are increasingly likely — they should have Cooper, Nick Chubb and Garrett greet him at the door. There aren’t many teams with the resources and roster of the Browns, and it makes for a tantalizing presentation.

The Browns passed on the player Clemson coach Dabo Swinney called “Michael Jordan’' in 2017, and now they have a second chance to land him.

It’s a bold and controversial move, but one they just might find worth making.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...er-mayfield-and-maybe-other-players.html

If you pay someone to give you oral sex it's not prostitution?

She also quit working with him... these are her texts.. She later backtracked and said they were taken out of context.





A whole lotta "goofy" going on with this story.

My understanding of a lot of the Watson complaints is that he was not going to a rub n tug parlor, he was exposing himself and pressuring and manipulating/coercing them into a situation where they did what they did. That is not what Patriots owner did at all.

Civil suits are far less of a concern that criminal complaints.


To be fair I think the cost of getting him is too high, especially with the distractions around him regardless of how those play out.

Have you ever posted a reply to someone without being snarky?

Maybe this sounds cold but as long as he can get it done on the field, most people won't care what he did as long as it wasn't terrorism or murder.

At this time he is still considered innocent becaue he has not been charged with a crime and found guilty. Innocent UNTIL proven guilty. Not guilty until proven innocent by the court of public opinion. That is the difference. At this time the grand jury said there was not enough evidence to proceed to a trail. Thus DeShaum Watson is still an innocent man and should be treated as such. If he was convicted and found guilty then and only then he would be considered a criminal found guilty of a crime. Public opinion does not get to decide guilt or innocence only a jury of his peers in a trial. Right now this man does not even face a criminal trial.

That is my point. How are we really supposed to know?

The message business has always been seedy. I am sure there are pure professionals in the business.

At the same time some of the parlors and on-line people are far from legit. Would some of these people be looking to extort a celebrity?

Hell yes.

So, in the end we have to rely on the court of law. And as I stated even then there is factual guilt and criminal guilt.
A grand jury decides upon "if" they feel they can prove guilt before they will indict.

They decided not to indict.

So this is in Haslam's court. The Browns are doing their own look see.

If someone has verifiable proof of sexual assualt that is a different matter.

That is not what has been published from what I have read.

Accusation is (legal) a formal charge brought against a person in a court of law while indictment is (legal) the official legal document outlining the charges concerned.

I think he did once back when we were still on the Browns website.

Well, no Watson to the bucs.

Now would be a good time to dump the Watson trade news.

so its now seahawks, saints, browns?

Man I did not see that coming.

It matters. The Texans don't have to trade him.

depends on if you are married to them or not

carolina and saints

Kirk staying with the Vikings. That was a possible destination for Watson.

He blocked Carolina before right? What changed since then?

Neither do I, but my feeling is Watson wasn't heading out to the Oriental Spa, out by the truck stop at exit 234.

Again, just a guess.

All this chatter about Watson and Browns being pursuers. This would be a great time to come out and extend Baker. Take all the pressure off him. Give him guaranteed money to lower the cap hit this year to sign another WR or another FA or even Jarvis if we want.

We could have no QB soon if we don't get Watson. Whom I don't want anyway. Give Mayfield all the confidence in the world. If the rumors are true or not. Extend Baker.

(I know it's not going to happen)

But where do we go from here....? no Watson, and tell Baker "oh, we were close to getting a guy we really wanted but now we're stuck with you so please be good."

Being innocent and being found not guilty are not the same thing.

This projected trade was from CBS Sports-Are they out of their minds

Projected offer: 2022 first-round pick (No. 13), 2023 first-round pick, 2022 second-round pick, 2023 second-round pick, 2022 sixth-round pick, QB Baker Mayfield, RB Kareem Hunt, TE David Njoku

Unlike the Seahawks with Drew Lock, the Texans would at least be getting a proven serviceable starter at QB in Mayfield, who may or may not warrant a long-term deal but is still just 26 himself. Hunt plays a replaceable role but is also 26 with Pro Bowl flashes at a position of need, while Njoku, 25, is a prime candidate to be moved under the franchise tag.

Yes it is. You are innocent until proven guilty. That is our law and rights as a citizen.

Seems like a recurring situation since the "99" return

Innocent means that you didn't do anything wrong.
Not guilty means. it cannot be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you did.
Not the same thing.

And sit on a treasure trove of assets?

But they kind of do need to trade him. They paid him to not play last year, and I'm pretty sure he asked for the trade then. What makes anyone think he will play for them now after he was benched for the year? I wonder if that was a year against his contract, or since he didn't play at all, if his contract extends a year? I mean he was paid, so it should count, right?

No kidding... Texans are trading him... Watson has a no trade clause so he gets a big say in where he goes... I guarantee you the only thing not happening is Watson staying in Houston unless DeShaun has a dramatic change of heart...

Some millennials and gen Zs think oral/anal are not sex at all. At least it doesn't count against their chastity vows. Heard kids talking about it and thought it was nuts.

Pretty sure it counted since he was paid... he's got two more years on his contract, I believe, before he could walk... so yes... they are trading him... no way they don't....

I fully expect it to take 3 first rounders plus more

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.

Being accused and being guilty aren't the same thing, either.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged." Especially if you don't have all the facts. My .02. *shrug*

If the Browns are willing to offer above or similar to get a player who has 20+ civil law suits waiting for him around the corner then I will officially label our GM and owners as first class idiots.

Being intelligent and smart isn’t always the same thing but this sort of idiotic deal must be labeled something else. Why are we even discussing such a brainless trade?

I know that journalists like MKC is a hater and maybe not the smartest chick around but the rest of you? Have any of you thought about the consequences if the NFL will suspend him, how long, or how the law suits will affect him? He will be in the public eye for a long long time and we still don’t know all the juicy ingredients who’s surrounding him. When lawyers starts to leak details to win sympathy it can get ugly. And what about the public opinion if some weird sexual behavior is coming out of all these law suits. No well run organization are willing take such a huge gamble with these conditions. The downsides far outweighs the upside.

Time will tell what kind of a organization we have with Berry but just hearing all these crazy speculations without nobody leaks any news trying to denying these rumors makes me wonder if something has changed in this historically underperforming organization.

We had a POTUS that wanted us to believe that.

The more I think about it. The more I wonder if we're just a stalking horse to drive up the price of Watson.

I could see Berry being content helping to make whoever ends up with Watson hamstring themselves by giving away as many prime picks and players as possible. I don't think anyone's worried about the Texans being able to use the picks well.

Alternatively, if we are actually interested in Watson at all I'd try to string them along until the draft. See if a player we covet is available at our pick or not. It would also allow more clarity on the civil cases.

If someone throws a ridiculous deal at the Texans now, I'm fine riding with 6.

IT started well and by 7 minutes it turned to absolute poop..

This thread reminds me of...

Let them have DW. No way I'm giving up 3 first-rounders plus assets. Just no way....

It’s pretty rough given the circumstances. If there were no off the field issues I’d give up more than that.

I don't know how good a fit New Orleans would actually be. They could be losing their LT in free agency. Michael Thomas went on IR in 2020 and didn't play at all in 2021. Alvin Kamara has legal trouble from the fiasco in Las Vegas while there for the Pro Bowl. They gave Taysom Hill that rather strange contract where they're on the hook for 19M this season and potentially a lot more if he's playing QB, which is more likely if Watson is there and suspended. Sean Payton is gone. They've already done a bunch of contract restructuring.

Maybe we'd be able to pry a DE away from them if they need to make cap room for Watson. I remember liking Davenport when he was coming out.

Is that you Mike Ditka?

Mike Ditka gave up his whole draft for the second best running back in the draft. Not quite the same. I get the joke though.

I long for the censorship days of 1980s television, if it were up to me, I'd delete the entire topic.
Since the start I've kind of had a hunch that Watson was guilty of making angry the wrong billionaire.

Is there an Echo in here? Lol

Would Kevin Stefanski's (no throw) offense ruin DeShaun Watson if he came to Cleveland?

I think it is a legit question to answer.

I'm pretty sure people have been making weird assertions about "kids these days" since time immemorial.

By every quantitative metric -- teen sex is way down since when you were a teenager:


https://ifstudies.org/blog/fewer-american-high-schoolers-having-sex-than-ever-before

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...-not-having-sex-has-reached-record-high/

Great Question.......

If they don't get their price, or at least close.

I don't know for sure. I would think it probably counts. If Watson decides to sit out, then it doesn't.

In your opinion. There is nothing to keep the court of public opinion from finding a person guilty, but that carries no legal weight. You might feel that he is guilty, but you don't know that he is guilty.

I myself am glad we live in a country where proof is needed to find people guilty over having public opinion polls to determine their fate.

If it was determined in that manner, way more innocent people would be found guilty and way more guilty people would be deemed not guilty, or deemed innocent if you will.

I think President Clinton went down that road.

Interesting. Seemed like he was on the "to Carolina" boat.

And in the end, I don't think we will knowing how much our FO values draft picks.

can someone explain to me why carolina would be a front runner?

remember, the texans dont have to trade him, and Watson doesnt can say no regardless. also, he already declined Carolina last season. Carolina tried to trade for watson when there was NOTHING cleared up, but he declined it.

what circumstances in carolina changed that makes the destination more attractive to watson now than last season?

Maybe he is at the point where he knows he needs to play if he is to attain any goals he may have?

Maybe he's got a bet and he's trying to will it to happen?

Can someone start a Derek Carr thread?

I believe if we make a move at QB it will be him. It just makes too much sense. Hoodie Jr. loves Baker. It was reported the Patriots wanted to trade up for him in the draft.

And Carr would fit what we want to do, and is essentially a Kirk Cousins type. Plus as a little added bonus he's already played with Cooper. Chemistry is there.

Josh needs his QB. And he's not afraid to make a splash. Baker is the perfect guy for him. And I would imagine we were good with Baker until McDaniels came along and asked us about him. He's pushing us to trade him. And perhaps the media heard we were in heavy talks for a QB and assumed it was Watson...


This is all my speculation of course.

could be. when i look at the panthers, they dont really have much to offer the texans. so even if he wants to go to carolina, the texans have to agree to the trade first.

According to Spotrac, Watson will not be an UFA until 2026 which means he has 4-years left on his deal 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025. Other notes: Watson's contract is fully guaranteed for 2022 (35M salary and 5.4M signing bonus that Houston is responsible for.) Houston is also responsible for the signing bonuses of 5.4M in 2023 and 2024. The Browns minimal commitment if trading for Watson would be: 2022 - 35M, 2023 - 37M, 2024 - 32M and 2025 - 32M with no dead cap any year after 2023. 2022 has a Roster Bonus of $17M for 2023 (guarantees 3/20/2022, due the 5th league day of 2023). IMHO, the Texans will trade Watson before 3/20/2022 so as to pass that roster bonus to the acquiring team.

It could be a myriad of reasons. I added my comment because he recently double-downed on it being Carolina over the weekend only to change his tune rather quickly. And I think it is worthwhile because Allbright is usually spot-on when it comes to his information, which is a primary reason why I don't think Cleveland is a front runner for Watson. My guess is new info from sources changed his opinion-- happens all the time, obviously.

Saints are the trending favorites. I wonder if Sean Payton wishes he would have stayed now?

Of course, they’re going to give up a lot to acquire him

At the end of the day, I do not think Watson will end up here. The price tag may just end up being too much. Watson will go somewhere and I suspect he will raise that team to another level.

The question is what conversations will we be having in February about our QB position.

The interesting thing in all of this, at least to me, isn't really the compensation teams will offer. It's the decision of where Watson wants to go. He holds all, or at least the majority, of the leverage and not the Texans playing teams off of one another. Now, the team Watson chooses to go to, they will have to offer a significant package but it's not a trade market in the truest sense of the term, IMO.

Out of the mentioned teams, I think the Browns have the best team to win now. However, if I'm Watson, playing in the NFC verses the AFC, seems like a more palatable route to make it to a Superbowl at this time. However, Brady coming back might have made that more difficult, which ironically enough, is in the same division as both the Saints and Panthers-- the two alleged front runners.

The dumb thing about it is that the Texans are probably in the easiest division in the AFC and sure you have quarterbacks to deal with in the playoffs, but at the moment the quarterbacks in the AFC south are beatable. The Texans botched this majorly and could have had a nice run with Watt, Hopkins, Watson, etc. The best place for Watson is Houston.

Seems clear OBJ has been talking to Watson and advising him where to (and not to) go.

And yet for some inexplicable reason, the Saints own Brady.

we couldn't be that lucky

I don't want to sound like an arbiter of this thread, but IMO, this post is the closest of yours to reality.

Another poster before this post mentioned that they wanted to look at a Watson trade without the cloud of the ethics... but you can't yet. The truth is his civil lawsuits are still pending, and the bar is much lower. This means there will absolutely be movement on those fronts. He'll have to defend himself, which means sordid details will leak out. If we're going to jump to any conclusions, I think the most reasonable one is that Watson is probably a giant creep. If he actually did anything wrong is another argument but, at the very least, you don't generate this much smoke without at least being a giant creep.

How soon you forget the media all had us being a contender and then we fell down right now nobody is saying it cause the media won't say it until it happens then when we win and who knows how far we get in the post season then and only then will they say we are a contender. So stripper that just isn't so. but I watch the Browns I watch our QB and I saw what he was doing prior to the injury - he was being a Franchise QB but all wishes to point at Some stats or the results of a year that he played hurt and we aren't talking about a bad ankle or thumb. But I like that QB with 80% completions along with a running attack un matched. We go and build this Defense we got the DBs now lets get that DL built to TOP of the NFL and we will win that championship.
Lets get our Aaron Donald in Jordan Davis we got Garrett the best DE around and complete the build with another DE von Miller?? How is Takk McKinley doing with his achilles recovery??? Will he be back?

All of a sudden Baker is not good enough for this team. You can pull whatever stats you wish out of your butt...He is the best QB we have had since Kosar He is ready to blow teams away and all of a sudden he is not good enough? Ski's O system is one of precision. Not freelance running around and creating time and freelance pass catching. Baker showed he could do that in the first couple years as he got away from defenders and would hit the freelance connections. But Ski wants discipline in his system so Baker is giving him that but he needs discipline WR and that is what we got in Amari Cooper. This isn't an O that is being built on what Baker does best but in Ski's system which Baker has shown he can play the system just not too well with a torn Labrum in the shoulder left or right the body could not do the things Baker wanted it to do.

jmho

After four years what do the stats show that Baker does best? Play action, bootlegs, and throwing to tight ends.

it shows he wins more games than Watson

QB wins are a team stat.

I agree, but it's worth pointing out that you'll get a very different opinion in the Baker threads on this.

i looked up the stats.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=MayfBa00
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/comeback.cgi?player=WatsDe00


Watson is 28-26. Baker is 30-30.

game winning drives: Watson has 10. Baker has 7.

4th comebacks: Watson has 8, baker has 6.

then you add the individual stats, and its not even close.

If you're waiting on Mother Teresa to come and play QB for us it might be awhile. Explains a lot about you.

Those people are wrong also.

Are we playing fantasy football or football? Football is a team sport.


Playoff Wins
Watson 1
Mayfield 1

Number of civil court cases
Watson 22
Mayfield 0

Cap hit
Mayfiled 18.5 mill
Watson 40 mill


It sounds like they also want Kareem Hunt and Denzel Ward and 2 other picks...


Where do we throw their stats in?

?? i dont understand why you considered it fantasy.

number of division titles

Watson 2
Mayfield 0

number of times being #1 in passing

Watson 1
Baker 0

better TD-int ratio

Watson

last time i checked, those are facts, not fantasy.


i dont mind hunt walking because we have D'ernest. Ward might be tough, but we're talking about a proven franchise QB. that cost money and assets.

So are Yards and Completions.

if its about wins, we can get Jimmy G for a lot less than what Watson will bring.

Agreed.

This whole thread reads like a "Anyone but Baker, at any cost" manifesto.

The level of absurdity it would take for the Browns to give up what people have been proposing AND for that to be considered a good move is just absolutely astounding..... and, like a lot of stuff at this time of every NFL year, totally disconnected from anything that makes any sense, whatsoever.

how?

the most likely scenario is still Baker starting the season.

besides, if it came down to Baker or Mariota/Trubisky/Carr, i'd just roll with Baker.

that doesnt mean there isn't a clear upgrade available.

For starters, your second and third sentence are the only things that are sensible (to me) in this thread.

As for the How?, I assume you are asking how I see this as an "anyone but Baker at any cost" thread, and I see it like that when I see people giving apparently serious thought to the idea of giving up the insane amount of capital/players that has been bandied about in here. Even IF that nets us an upgrade at the QB position, and I'm still firmly in the camp of that being an IF, the constraints such moves puts on the team in both the short and long term - and the negative impact that would have on the ability to hold this roster together over time - tells me that people have developed an almost frantic tunnel-vision over the notion of replacing Baker, or getting Watson, whichever.


I'd much rather we just give Baker a DeAndre Hopkins/Brandin Cooks with Will Fuller combo every year and see how much better we look.
Just my $0.02

I understand.

I just don’t believe mayfield can lead us deep into the playoffs. I look around the AFC, and baker isn’t even 2nd best in his own division.

For me it’s going for a known vs 4 years of unknown. The lack of consistency in mayfield as play is troubling.

And then I’m in the opinion that deshaun wouldn’t have had a problem getting OBJ the ball. And the games that baker mayfield couldn’t win are the games Watson will.

The QB is the most important position. So all the weapons in the world won’t matter if the QB can’t get right. Jimmy G is a perfect example of that.

And I’m also basing this on the fact that AB is clearly seeing what else is out there. We’re talking about compensation, but the world is roasting the cowboys for letting amari go for useless draft picks.

I’m talking about Watson from a pure football perspective. All the cap/trade/compensation is something none of us knows what it’ll end up being.

Always the “other teams” in the sources. It’s certainly likely the saints or panthers land him, but it makes me wonder if they’re the front runners simply because they’re NFC teams.

In the end Watson gets to pick his team.

I don't understand how you come to that conclusion when we were literally one horrible no-call from being DEEP in the playoffs. You toss out the word "deep" like it's significant, but you gotta remember a little perspective here.. "DEEP" is two wins. Even if you're a Wild Card, three wins puts you in the Super Bowl. The use of "deep" is pure hyperbole.

Baker CAN do all of that, and when I look at the QBs in this past Super Bowl, there was absolutely NOTHING in that game that Baker isn't capable of on an everyday level.


Beyond all of that, if you took away DeAndre Hopkins/Brandin Cooks and made Will Fuller be the #1, but hobbled him, and then trotted that out with just a bunch of guys to fill the rest of the spots, Deshaun Watson would look an awful lot like Baker did this year.


I feel that this past year of disappointment was long enough that over the last few months folks have built up an idea in their heads of what is and what isn't that doesn't really align with reality.

Edit: Oh, yeah.... and roll DeShaun's ankle, wreck a toe, and break his shoulder.

Ditto!

deep is the conference title game.

and he had 2 cracks at getting the GW and sending us to the title match, but he didnt pull it out.

a healthy Watson is better than a healthy Baker. and our O line and running backs by itself is world betters than what he had in houston.

so i understand why you want to roll with baker. but i rather have a franchise QB that measures up to the completely ridiculous amount of QB's in the AFC.

so you might not understand my position. and while i do understand yours, i disagree with it.

This is a difficult and complicated topic that has multiple components.

Watson and the whole ethical question. Watson and future rulings regarding a league suspension and civil cases.

Contract and cap space. Trade of draft asssets and players. The future with Baker or Watson.

The goal is to win the Super Bowl. Which player gives you the best chance? Could you win with either guy?

You have to begin though with the upgrade from Baker to Watson. IMO you look at ceiling and floor. In Bakers case we have seen both. The problem with Baker hurt or not is consistency. His floor is bad play that you can not win with. His ceiling is good play "you can win with."

Watson has been for the most part consistent. His floor has been above average play. His ceiling has been elite play. You can win "because of him" and you can win with him.

Baker today is the starter. After this year his future is not clear. He either plays good enough to keep or it is time to move on.

You trade for Watson you are committed till at least 2026 and beyond if all goes well.

Now the hard part what is given up in trade? We can speculate. We kind of now the parameters. But we don't really know till a deal is done.

Then we have to see what our roster looks like after free agency and the draft so we can see the team Watson plays with.

Watson is an upgrade but will the cost equal the risk and will it determine if we can reach the goal?

Something not really being discussed is we did say we are going with baker this year.

Why is that not the word and exactly what we are going to do?

Here is another thought. It is always talked about that the best window to be a real SB contender is when your QB is on his rookie deal. That way you can pay for all the other positions. It makes sense.

What if the plan is to always be on a rookie deal? We know that if you are good enough in other areas, you don't have to have the best QB. Green Bay seems to have the best QB most of the time, but they seem to fall short.

No doubt if your QB turns out great you are going to extend past the rookie deal, but if not just draft another guy, have him 5 years behind a team that is really good in the other areas. That makes sense to me.

If a team was to do that, maybe us drafting a QB this year is the way to go.

I mean - I believe that since 2008, there have only been 2 Super Bowl Winners with QBs on their rookie deals (Mahomes and Wilson). This despite the fact that about a quarter of teams have a starting QB on a rookie deal. Obviously their are other "contenders" (Burrow this year) -- but I don't think we see a strong correlation where rookie QBs really help your team.

Our OL is better when healthy. It just so happens we were banged up enough to be trotting out "some guy named Blake" that hadn't been on the team long enough for Baker to learn his full name in the playoffs. We've not been very fortunate on the injury front. Watson had Hopkins. OBJ never lasted to the playoffs and Landry was always slowed down. Baker himself has been hurt.

A QB can't throw to and block for himself.

In the playoffs: Baker was a questionable fumble into the end zone away from beating the Chiefs. DeShaun Watson lost by 20 to the Chiefs.

DeShaun Watson lost to the Colts and only managed to put up 7 points against them.

The only team DeShaun Watson has beat in the playoffs was a Buffalo Bills team whose top receivers were John Brown and Cole Beasley. They were still trotting out an end of the line Frank Gore at RB.

DeShaun Watson doesn't exactly have a great record in the playoffs.

He'd be on a worse team than Baker because we'd have to give up assets and his higher cap hit. He wouldn't have Hopkins to bail him out on low percentage hail Marys.

There's also karma and our track record with mobile QBs to worry about. Our luck and we'd sell the farm only for him to blow out an Achilles and break his throwing arm in four places in a non contact freak accident at training çamp.

We had one of the highest pass block win rates in the league.


Are you talking about the game when the Texans had something like a 24 point league and then Mahomes went nuclear? That was Watson's fault?


The only team Baker beat in the playoffs was the Steelers with an old broken down QB and he still needed five turnovers.


As long as we are giving up players off our roster then this makes no sense.


Watson had his best statistical season in 2020. . . when Hopkins was on the Cardinals.


Is this real?

I do understand your position, I just don't come to the same conclusions you do on the things that support your position, which is kinda why I have the position I have.
You feel he solves a problem. I think he's a "grass is always greener on the other side" kinda thing... kinda like the way everyone was swooning over the prospect of trying to land Garroppolo (or several years back..... or, Orlando Pace, or Bill Cowher, lol... but, now everyone has finally come back to Earth on Garoppolo.



I think the term and idea of "franchise QB" is overblown in a lot of people's minds these days, too. In the playoffs, we saw what Mahommes was without his best targets. Is he not a franchise QB fit for the AFC race? We saw just how much Chase makes Burrow, and Burrow without Chase looks a lot like Weeden (without being as much of a statue). We saw several QBs get praised for dumb throws that Baker got roasted for (just heaving the ball out to a receiver that's doubled or tripled by defenders)... with the only difference being the result on the part of that receiver, and two of them were in the Superb Owl. Aaron Rodgers is the definition of "franchise QB", and he definitely elevates his players, but even he only has one Super Bowl appearance and gets held back by lack of talent and investment at WR. Brady is widely heralded as the GOAT, but even Belichick didn't hesitate to get him Randy Moss and other receiving talents. Your QB has to have viable talent for each WR role for things to run well. When you don't have that, you are limited before you even begin, and no QB can run routes for their receivers. It's the Higgins conundrum: All he does is catch balls from Baker for big plays and first downs.... except for the 97% of the time he can't get open.

In the end, - and to mix metaphors - in a world where you only need a 300HP QB to win it all, we have a 400HP QB (that was misfiring all year because he needed repairs) and folks are wanting to give up the farm for the promise and hope of 450HP without accounting for us only having a drivetrain rated for 200HP.... and doing that upgrade will very quickly cause us to not only be unable to get new parts in the long run, but we'll likely have to sell off other parts just to keep things kinda chugging along.

Might be that many don't believe the information that comes from the Browns franchise...that the Browns are 'going with baker this year'.

So much comment about Watson replacing Mayfield, yet the front office says nothing to knock down those claims. To me, the lack of support in the face of the Watson rumors is a clear sign that the Browns front office would like to make Baker the fall guy for last years failures.

Can't have it both ways then claim you always supported Baker...jmo

When people wanted Garoppolo it was based on their projection for what they thought he might become. We know that Watson is top five QB, the only questions are off the field (they are a huge red flag).

It was more my attempt to apply Baker Hater logic to DeShaun Watson.

While 2020 may have been his best statistical season, his team went 4-12. Playing from behind tends to "pad" QB stats. They lost by 30 points to the Bears.

Our surrounding team with Watson would be worse than the surrounding team with Baker. If we traded, we'd be giving up additional players and picks, and we'd have to work around a bigger QB contract.

What was our pass block win rate in the playoffs? When our OL was missing basically everyone.

Baker's playoff record isn't amazing, but neither is Watson's.

I'll admit Watson may be the better player. But how much better?

yea i disagree, especially the last part. Mobile QB's are everywhere.

as far as assets, yall are so confusing on this board. one year, the QB is the most important position and there should be no cost too high to get the guy. then the next, we're all of a sudden worried about draft picks.

do you guys actually want this team to win a title, or are we all good with just being below average as long as we can HOPE to make the playoffs.

im glad AB is at least trying. he might not land watson, but atleast we know the FO tried to upgrade to keep us from falling too behind in the arms race.

The problem here is you're taking things other people may have said and thinking it should somehow apply to me and what I'm saying.

I don't get this either. He was 13th in QBR in 2018, 7th in 2019, 12th in 2020 (two spots behind Mayfield), and then didn't play in 2021....

He's better than Mahomes? Rodgers? Brady? Herbert? Burrows? Wilson? Murray? Josh Allen?

A lot better. Like a ton. Watson is a legit top five QB. Baker, coming off his best season, was ranked 11th NFL front offices before the 2021 season.


My assumption is that we'd just be giving up picks. It wouldn't make sense to tear apart our offensive foundation to get Watson. We would trade for Watson because of the players we have on offense.

Where is the confusion? Are you saying that it somehow makes a difference that he didn't have sexual misconduct with all of his message therapists?

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WatsDe00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayfBa00.htm

i dunno how many times imma post these links because i swear yall ask questions that already have answers. compare Watson's best year to Baker's best year. oh, you're gonna have to pick which season for watson because he has two seasons of great numbers with back to back playoff appearances. Bakers best season was 2020, and he still had a lower completion % than Watson. for their careers, Baker never had anything higher than 63.8%, which was his rookie year btw, followed by 59, 62, and 60.while watson's lowest was his rookie year at 61.8%, followed by 68, 67, and 70.

watson averages more yards per att, more yards per game, a much higher TD-int ratio, 3 pro bowls compared to none for Baker, and i didnt even post Watson's rushing numbers. adding that element make the gap wider than it already was.

j/c...

Just looking at the facts that matter most.

New Orleans seems to have waaay better massage parlors than Charlotte.

That is all.

well i responded to bull, but since you responded, you're also worried about assets, right?

you know what.....lets do this:

Who do you think is the better QB?

who does GM's around the league think is the better QB?

who do the players think is the better QB?

who does AB think is the better QB?

which QB would stefanski rather have?

and which QB do you think our own players would rather have if given a choice?

If you pay someone to give you a message and then force them to perform oral sex on you, does that make them a prostitute?

Depends on what kind of message:

Text message -- no.
Courier Pigeon message -- yes.

j/c...

baker was 51, 54, 65, and 35 in QBR.
Watson was 83, 61, 70, and 63 in QBR.

Watson has a career QB rating of 104. Baker's is 87. Baker also has 56 interceptions, compared to 36 for Watson. Baker has never gone above 4k passing, while Watson has done it twice.

I am not saying he is guilt. I am saying not guilty and innocent are not the same thind.

And as you point out, the legal court and the court of public opinion are not the same either.


I don't know if he committed a crime or not. But he aure seems pretty skeezy. Should he go to jail for that? No, of course not. Is that enough to make me not like him? Absolutely, it is my right. I don't have to like anyone. Is that dislike enough to make me not want to trade for him? Personally, I haven't decided yet. And I won't waste my time thinking about it in depth unless we do trade for him.

i swear this is 2017 and 2018 all over again.

i forgot that this board as a whole swore up and down Trubisky was better than Watson. or that Lamar would be a bust.

It is impossible to remove the off the field issues from the equation. But if one were able to do that their answer would be Watson to all of these questions. If not then they are revealing themselves as in the tank for Baker no matter what (which is fine).

I understand not wanting Watson because of the creep stuff. I understand not wanting Watson because of the cost to acquire him. Not wanting Watson because you think Baker is better is just straight up wrong.

You seem to be totally ignoring so many other factors a corporation holds dear and have decided to look at it in a vacuum. How will it impact the corporate image? Will it divide the fan base? What is the risk of his 22 civil suits and possible NFL suspension moving forward? How will the media circus and distraction it provides negatively impact the team overall? There are 22 civil cases pending. You can't clean up his image with all of that hanging over his head. And with each passing suit you will have another mess to clean up.

This would be a catastrophe.

It was actually twice.

If Lamar can't run... he is a bust. Baltimore knows it too. That's why they are dragging out his contract as long as possible. They probably also recognize that teams are starting to figure him out.

***Since we are on the Lamar topic***

Lamar's never thrown for more than 3200 yards and only managed 16 touchdowns last year against 13 INT's
Lamar is terrible in the playoffs. I think in 4 games his QBR was like 65-70 and has thrown more INT's than TD's.

Statistically, Baker is a better QB than Lamar in most categories except for being an RB.

his image will never be completely fixed. he is at the minimum a certified creep show. but ethics and morals is gonna be tough argument seeing as Haslam has been involved with an fbi investigation, we signed Hunt, and now got the malik mcdowell situation where people clearly tried to just brush that aside.

and the corporate image? are you not paying attention to the crap going on with the washington red....er...commanders? or oakland? or whatever scumbag dallas signs?

winning cures all.

If you remove this player's most valuable asset then this other player who can't do what that other player does is better!

And that's the bottom line in the NFL.

See:

Joe Mixon
Adrian Peterson
Tyreek Hill
Baker Mayfield (Cheesecake Factory parking lot)
etc., etc.....


At the end of the day, fans can forgive and forget if you win. For better or worse...that's the nature of the NFL.

Lamar sucks in the playoffs. He's worse than any other QB (in recent years) that I can remember. That's his most valuable asset.

What is the Brown's image now? The fan base is always divided. I'm sure the team has a better idea of the risk and potential punishment than we do. There will be a media circus around the team no matter what we do with regards to Watson. Dealing with distraction is part of the NFL gig nowadays.

Catastrophe is a Cleveland specialty.

We might have a group in place that can handle it.

...I'll keep trying to look at all the angles. Makes it easier to try to find the positive whichever way it ends up working out.

In what world do any of you truly seeing Watson approving a trade to come to Cleveland, over New Orleans or Carolina?

We do have the always lovely Cleveland Botanical Gardens and free admission to the Cleveland Art Museum. <shrugs emoji>

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JackLa00.htm
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MayfBa00.htm


is that so? lol man i love this board, so here we go:

Baker's QBR in order: 51, 54, 65, 35.
Lamar's QBR in order: 42, 83, 67, 50

lamar has a higher TD-int ratio

lamar has 2 division titles and an MVP

lamar has a higher yards per att average

lamar has a higher QB rating

and omg, LAMAR HAS A HIGHER COMPLETION% than Baker.

like seriously just stop it already. a this point yall just making up stuff. and take away his run? if i took away bakers best attribute, then where would he rank against lamar? im sorry but thats ridiculous.

Our roster is much more talented than both of those teams. Carolina's offensive line was a disaster last year and their head coach is toast if he doesn't win this season. New Orleans no longer has Sean Payton and has a defensive head coach. If Watson does well Peter Carmichael, the Saints offensive coordinator, will likely get hired elsewhere. Stefanski is viewed as a very good head coach in the league and his system (which is actually the Shanahan/Kubiak system) is proven to work.

I would understand if Watson wanted to go to New Orleans. Their offensive line is pretty good, they have Michael Thomas and Alvin Kamara, the franchise is very stable, and the AFC is loaded. But let's not pretend our situation is horrible.

Alvin Kamara is facing some legal troubles as well and could be suspended.

I didn't say our situation was horrible, I asked if you think Watson sees things that way? Not like we have a history of stability, consistency or maintaining a contender.

Speaking of feelings. To believe he is not guilty of something you would have to believe 22 people are lying and only 1 person is telling the truth.


Yes, that's how it works in the business world and when it comes to common sense thinking.


There is no "deemed innocent" in our court system. There is only not guilty which means they could not come up with enough evidence to prove your guilt in criminal proceeding.

And a lot of people are determined guilty based on circumstantial evidence. I'll stick with 22-1 odds.

I have no way of knowing what Watson thinks (obviously). If I was Watson I would have tried to get to the Steelers but it seems like they didn't want him.

Need help, I'm a bit confused.

I don't come into this forum, anymore, but when I come I start reading this posts and I get a bit confused.

Who is the Browns QB which is better than Lamar and Watson ? They are not talking about Baker are they?

I do not think Watson want's to be a Brown, there is too much history in there.

I just hope we start the season with a new QB, any QB, because then we can move forward, Baker will always hold us back, just like Tim Couch and Charlie Frye did, and then it will be too late.

I'm simply expecting a decent human being. Nothing more. You claim to base his innocence on a SB win. With you having said that, even if you were good at the position I wouldn't want you as our QB either.

So his lawyer just spontaneously went looney. That's what I just read there.

Some of them are disputing that Watson would do what the others say he did.

For right now I am backing off the ethical part until something happens.

I guess in the end each person will have to decide how they want to view Watson.

My interest is will it happen? And at what cost.

I would rather have Baker because I want him to succeed.

Watson? I will wait till all is said and done. He will have to answer questions and the civil cases may reveal more.

Watson has a lot to answer for. I will give him his chance.

that or Watson is answering questions because he believes he didn't do anything wrong, and there wasn't any assault.

interesting how this will play out.

Come and see our giant statue bridge!

Does anybody in Cleveland actually go to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?

I went once when I was 15. I think it was the year after it opened.

I bet they get a lot of school field trips.

I actually went there a couple months ago for a wedding. That was cool as hell.

I guess one could look at a scoreboard that reads 22-1 and still claim they have no idea which team won.

You trying to compare a Watson circus to anything even close to the image we currently face wreaks of a desperate attempt at comparing two totally different situations.

What about Baker when he is forced to stay in the pocket? He is a completely different QB in that case. Teams are figuring that out, too.

Wait, wait, wait, I didn't know we were allowed to talk about that!

My bad, I lost my head there for a minute ... Nothing to see here.

A person is still presumed innocent until proven guilty. He has not been proven guilty in the court of law.

Yeah 11-5 and making the playoffs with Baker wasn't winning. Winning seems to be something that cures all for some. It's the "at any and all costs" part I have an issue with. It seems what I consider bigger issues in life are of lesser concerns to others. I was raised better than that.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2022/01/the-baker-mayfield-stats-that-explain-his-2021-season-with-the-browns.html#:~:text=He%20completed%2067.9%20percent%20of,14%20touchdowns%20and%2010%20interceptions.

Yeah, and if he can win a SB he's innocent, right?

i'd say 'no' too because what the hell is a 5rd?

It's like a 9er.

I thought it was something that used 5 fingers and happens in sleazy massage parlors.

You'd have to ask Deshawn about that.