Before the 2021 season Mike Sando from The Athletic wrote his annual QB Tiers column (https://theathletic.com/2727336/202...nd-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/). The column is based on an, "All-star voting panel [that] included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities."
Watson was ranked fifth. Baker was ranked 17th (coming off of his great run in 2020).
This is what was said about Watson:
Quote
Watson was fifth overall and the final quarterback in the top tier last year as well. The accusations made against him in civil lawsuits did not affect how voters evaluated him as a player, although the uncertainty surrounding the situation created additional options.
“I feel like you can put him a 1, 2 or 4 and not be wrong,” a defensive coordinator said. “You could ‘4’ him for who the [f-word] knows what is going to happen. I’m going to go 1. If he is on the field, he is a 1.”
Watson led the NFL last season in EPA per pass attempt and yards per attempt.
“He throws with accuracy, he’s got vision, he keeps plays alive, he can be scary,” a secondary coach said.
Watson also took 49 sacks. Only Carson Wentz took more (50).
“We played them and I definitely would not put him as a 1,” a defensive coordinator said. “You don’t go into the week thinking, ‘Oh my God, we have to deal with this guy.’ He’s not like a pure drop-back passer, so he creates a lot with is legs. He can make throws. He has a good arm. But when you play him you are not afraid of him beating you throwing the ball. You are more concerned, if he drops back, hey, we got to make sure we tackle this guy.”
Some who argued against Watson’s inclusion in Tier 1 thought the best quarterbacks should elevate their teams more than Watson elevated the 4-12 Texans.
“You would think with just the sheer nature of a 1 they would have won more games and at least threatened for playoff position,” a GM said. “We have seen Rodgers do that. Watson played and they still are picking in the top five. Great talent, the 1 is in him, but he is going to have to get everything more structured, including his personal life.”
Houston ranked eighth in offensive EPA despite having traded receiver DeAndre Hopkins. The Texans ranked 31st in combined EPA on defense and special teams, the No. 1 driver of their poor record. Since 2006, teams ranked 31st in that category have averaged 4.5 victories. Of those teams, the best records belonged to Jay Cutler’s 2013 Bears (8-8), Cutler’s 2007 Broncos (7-9) and Drew Brees’ 2016 Saints (7-9). There were no Tier 1-caliber quarterbacks on the other teams.
“They won because of him without anything around him,” an exec said of the Watson-led Texans. “They would not have won even four games without him.”
Here is what was said about Baker:
Quote
Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.
“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”
This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.
“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”
The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.
“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”
Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.
“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.
Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.
“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”
“Quarterback is the most important position in sports,” [Berry] said. “And so for me, as I came up under Bill [Polian] and pretty much every stop, this was the belief, and certainly my last stop in Philly: It’s make sure we do everything to support that position first and foremost. Because you can do a lot of really great things, but if that position isn’t solved and the environment isn’t conducive to that player having success, then you’re really kind of stuck in neutral,” Berry said. “So we’re doing everything that we can do to support the quarterback, because ultimately that’s the position that’s going to drive you. Then, once we get that environment settled, whether it’s on-field or off-field, then, really, kind of transition into [other] priorities.”
Most of us also grew up to treat people like their innocent until they are proven guilty. It is a right as a citizen in our society.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Most of us also grew up to treat people like their innocent until they are proven guilty. It is a right as a citizen in our society.
Yet it seems some of us weren't taught to try and use any common sense whatsoever. That's why you have people believe that 22 women are lying while only one man is telling the truth. In most cases they aren't actually dumb enough to believe that. They've just gotten to the point they're willing to sell their souls for a shot at a SB win.
I'll tell you what, if you have a daughter, a niece or some young woman who holds a significant place in your family that this ever happens to, tell them that no matter what they say, you don't believe the man is guilty of what they're saying unless he's convicted in court.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
This what I'm talking about the guy is a talented QB, but we don't need his baggage, IMO 22 Women aren't all lying, and just because he avoided criminal charges doesn't make him innocent, so why go after this guy when we have a QB that has already shown when healthy he can take this team to the playoffs, he is a QB who wants to play here, and he will have huge Chip on his shoulder which he has had his entire career and came out on top. So Why? And look at what they want, you are mortgaging your draft future + giving away 3 Starters IMO that's nuts please Watson choose another team to ruin ...
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
Personally, I do not want Watson. I think that there is far too much smoke.
I think he is talented, but the rest concerns me.
I worry that we have ruined the team's relationship with Baker. He was bad last year, while working through multiple injuries ...... but he has the talent to be an upper level playoff QB. I just think that he is donen here, even if we don't trade for Watson.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
I worry that we have ruined the team's relationship with Baker. He was bad last year, while working through multiple injuries ...... but he has the talent to be an upper level playoff QB. I just think that he is donen here, even if we don't trade for Watson.
It's pretty clear what the team thinks of Baker at this point.
Most of us also grew up to treat people like their innocent until they are proven guilty. It is a right as a citizen in our society.
Yet it seems some of us weren't taught to try and use any common sense whatsoever. That's why you have people believe that 22 women are lying while only one man is telling the truth. In most cases they aren't actually dumb enough to believe that. They've just gotten to the point they're willing to sell their souls for a shot at a SB win.
I'll tell you what, if you have a daughter, a niece or some young woman who holds a significant place in your family that this ever happens to, tell them that no matter what they say, you don't believe the man is guilty of what they're saying unless he's convicted in court.
But, your using what was said in the media to draw your conclusions. There are for sure things behind closed doors that are not being said in the public. It is a dangerous game to always just believe what they are told thru the media. At this point in time the only facts we have is 22 accusations but not enough evidence to charge.
He may have done these crimes and he may not have and there is 22 woman hoping to get a pay check. It is not up to me to determine unless I was asked to be on the jury. All I know is in this country we have a right as a citizen to be innocent until proven guilty. In the biblical world we are to think the best of everyone. To not judge thru our own standards or we could be judged by those same standards. To judge everything against the word of God (Bible). Who am I to judge Deshaun Watson. Those without sins throw the first stone. So until he is found guilty I will think the best of him and see him as innocent until he is proven guilty.
It is very dangerous for a society to determine guilt and innocence in the media or court of public opinion.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
If a player refuses to play you don't pay him. Anyone who thinks you have to pay a player who refuses to enter the field of play has no idea how contracts work. Houston paid him well over 10 mil. last year. That's what a team has to do when a player is available to play even if they decide not to play him.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
If a player refuses to play you don't pay him. Anyone who thinks you have to pay a player who refuses to enter the field of play has no idea how contracts work. Houston paid him well over 10 mil. last year. That's what a team has to do when a player is available to play even if they decide not to play him.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
John 3:16 Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
Mostly because it's misleading, at best. Watson said he wouldn't play for Houston right before the accusations came out.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
yea and he wasnt sam darnold bad, and sam went for a couple of 2nds.
Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Swish
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
never say never.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
yea and he wasnt sam darnold bad, and sam went for a couple of 2nds.
Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Swish
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
never say never.
Darnold had two years left on his deal and people thought Adam Gase destroyed him (it turns out he was just bad). Mayfield has one year left on his deal, a bum shoulder, and is coming off a year in which he was one of the worst QBs in the league. If we get more than a third for him throw a parade.
Watson requested to be traded prior to the accusations. Do we know if the Texans would have traded him? No. Are the Texans incompetent? Yes.
it's said because he likely knew the accusations were coming out
who said it then?
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
And you've given the perfect example of why many women never come forward in the first place and most women aren't recording their dates when they are attacked or treated improperly in a sexual way. It is illegal to videotape a message due to privacy reasons for the person getting the message.
What this does is create a he said/she said situation that makes it nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. That's the threshold for pressing criminal charges. So that means you have to decide if you find that 22 women are making everything up while one man is telling the truth or not. Trying to convict someone with no witnesses or DNA in a criminal court case is nearly impossible. That has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. Your biblical reference is in regards to stoning someone. Nothing more. I'm sure for the vast majority of women in our country dismissing their word when there's an overwhelming amount of women making such accusations over one man is far more dangerous to them in our society than what you are saying is dangerous.
It's 22-1. This isn't difficult
Let me tell you another thing. We have a female on this very board who at least was a licensed massage therapist. I have not seen her step forward to comment on this issue. But she and the type of women who are actually legitimate message therapists are not some seedy characters looking to give out happy endings. I find her to be of very good character. There's no way I would deny believing anything like this that she would tell me. Under your scenario we would ave to believe all 22 of them are money grubbing liars and only Deshawn Watson was the beacon of truth here.
I think the very notion of that is beyond ridiculous.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I had no idea that abusing women was a "current social climate". From a young child I was always taught you never make unwanted advances or force yourself in a sexual way upon women. I know it's convenient to try and blame it on current trends but I'm willing to bet you were taught the same things I was in regards to women while growing up.
No, I was talking more about media stories and feelings trumping facts- The court of public opinion with regards to the "current social climate."
I was also brought up to treat woman as equals. They're as capable of being in the wrong as men. They're not just always innocent flowers that need to be protected by tough guys.
There can be female "predators," too.
A shady lawyer could round up 22 women to claim that you are a sexual predator. Does that make you one?
Something being on social media or in the "news" doesn't make it true.
I'm guessing reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Watson probably did something borderline. Some of the massage therapists probably tried to get Watson to cross the line. Some of them are probably just in it for the money. Some may even feel they were legitimately "assaulted."
I haven't seen any evidence of the last one. Apparently neither did the legal system.
Having sex with a woman and then having her feel scorned later isn't a crime, though.
Getting a sports massage is kind of a weird situation. Someone's being paid to put their hands on someone else's groin. Physiological responses happen.
The legal system didn't find anything criminal. I've seen no evidence of forcible contact.
Our society is in a weird place where sex is both celebrated and castigated.
We should probably just go ahead and legalize prostitution. Regulate it. Let people be straightforward about what they are looking for. Be safe about it.
Not my thing, but there's a reason it's considered the world's oldest profession. Plus, Jesus liked to hang out with them.
Now if I knew Watson forcibly did something against someone's will, I'm all for bringing back stoning.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
And you've given the perfect example of why many women never come forward in the first place and most women aren't recording their dates when they are attacked or treated improperly in a sexual way. It is illegal to videotape a message due to privacy reasons for the person getting the message.
What this does is create a he said/she said situation that makes it nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. That's the threshold for pressing criminal charges. So that means you have to decide if you find that 22 women are making everything up while one man is telling the truth or not. Trying to convict someone with no witnesses or DNA in a criminal court case is nearly impossible. That has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. Your biblical reference is in regards to stoning someone. Nothing more. I'm sure for the vast majority of women in our country dismissing their word when there's an overwhelming amount of women making such accusations over one man is far more dangerous to them in our society than what you are saying is dangerous.
It's 22-1. This isn't difficult
Let me tell you another thing. We have a female on this very board who at least was a licensed massage therapist. I have not seen her step forward to comment on this issue. But she and the type of women who are actually legitimate message therapists are not some seedy characters looking to give out happy endings. I find her to be of very good character. There's no way I would deny believing anything like this that she would tell me. Under your scenario we would ave to believe all 22 of them are money grubbing liars and only Deshawn Watson was the beacon of truth here.
I think the very notion of that is beyond ridiculous.
Until a court of his peers convict he is to be considered innocent. Innocent until proven guilty. That is the law of the land and our rights as a citizen. Once he is convicted then and only then how he is to be considered changes.
Romans 10:9 "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in thy heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."
Yes because so far there’s been a bunch of wrong tweets and info. So thank you for actually finding a source for this.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
A shady lawyer could round up 22 women to claim that you are a sexual predator. Does that make you one?
Something being on social media or in the "news" doesn't make it true.
I'm guessing reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Watson probably did something borderline. Some of the massage therapists probably tried to get Watson to cross the line. Some of them are probably just in it for the money. Some may even feel they were legitimately "assaulted."
I haven't seen any evidence of the last one. Apparently neither did the legal system.
Having sex with a woman and then having her feel scorned later isn't a crime, though.
Getting a sports massage is kind of a weird situation. Someone's being paid to put their hands on someone else's groin. Physiological responses happen.
The legal system didn't find anything criminal. I've seen no evidence of forcible contact.
Our society is in a weird place where sex is both celebrated and castigated.
We should probably just go ahead and legalize prostitution. Regulate it. Let people be straightforward about what they are looking for. Be safe about it.
Not my thing, but there's a reason it's considered the world's oldest profession. Plus, Jesus liked to hang out with them.
Now if I knew Watson forcibly did something against someone's will, I'm all for bringing back stoning.
This is sickening. This didn't start out as 22 women with a lawyer. Why in the hell can't you figure out that criminal courts do not prosecute he said. she said cases because there's no way to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? That has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Your response is sickening and degrading to women.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Look, I'm not choosing my side on this... but the lawyer (Tony Busbee (sp?)) did go and seek out all the women he could find to bring accusations against Watson. I wouldn't call that "rounding up women to claim you are a sexual predator", but there are more inaccurate ways to describe it.
There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.
If this was Baker vs Watson, it is clearly Watson. But that is not the case.
It is a Baker vs:
Watson, and $20 million higher cap hit and The players we need to cut/not sign because of that cap hit and 3 1st round picks and Perhaps some other picks and Perhaps a couple young talented established players and The potential games missed because of suspension and The PR hit
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown. Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
Often times women are afraid to come out against men of wealth and power because of the very thing we see on this board. They are dismissed, accused of lying, in general under attack and things are spun to the point of making predator look like the victim. Just read the threads.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
If this was Baker vs Watson, it is clearly Watson. But that is not the case.
It is a Baker vs:
Watson, and $20 million higher cap hit and The players we need to cut/not sign because of that cap hit and 3 1st round picks and Perhaps some other picks and Perhaps a couple young talented established players and The potential games missed because of suspension and The PR hit
can you guys explain to me why you're worried about the cap hit? i get everything else, but this is a guy who is already signed for 4 years. if we had to sign baker, he'd cost a lot more than Watson. just doesnt make any sense. any QB worth the contract is gonna cost at least that.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
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