Watson is most likely and perv (and probably more than that) It seems that the Saints and Panthers are the most likely destinations No one goes to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame It is going to cost a ton to get Watson Watson is very good
Hopefully Watson did say no and that's the end of it.
As for the offer - that'd be an too much to give up for Watson with or without this hanging over him. With this hanging over him - insane and I do not believe it which makes me believe that this is all smoke and BS with the Texans trying to drive up the cost.
Also very happy not to discuss until he has actually been traded.
If he was free an clear from his off-field issues (civil suits and NFL punishment is at least known, if not dealt with), then I could see giving this up for him. Dude is a young 3x PB QB. I'm a Baker fan, but I also live in reality. On the field, Watson is inarguably an upgrade over Baker.
That brings up my next point. Has there been any sort of timeline on how this Watson thing is going to play out? I don't know how long the civil suits are going to take to work through, and when the NFL suspension cloud is going to dissipate.... So what's to stop this whole saga from dragging out over the whole off-season and longer? IMO, the first real deadline would be the first round of the draft, since I would imagine Houston will want to spend some of those draft assets right away if they no longer have Watson on payroll.
Why? He won't just be playing there, he and his family will be living there. Why would anyone "choose" to live in the north when they have a choice to live in warm weather? I mean I understand how people from the north may not see it that way. And while Nashville isn't exactly a warm weather city, the winters here are far milder and shorter than Ohio. I'm in favor of it. Just because someone chooses to make use of the option to live and raise their family in a warm weather climate doesn't make them soft.
I'm sorry but where there is smoke there is usually fire, when 22 females accuse a man of sexual misconduct something is happening somewhere. I don't want that here in Cleveland ... JMHO
I'm doing a bit of research on Watson, trying to get a handle on how he plays in conditions similar to those he would face in Cleveland in late season.
Watson's most recent stats playing in games that were played ... 1.Outside on grass 2. In the months of Nov and Dec, with temperatures ranging from 29 degrees to 59 degrees...
.....Date.........Houston.....vs....______...Outside..Temp..Surface..Wind....Watson Game Stats.......................................... Dec 15, 2019...Houston 24 vs Titans 21.....Out.......45*....Grs......4 mph...19/27/243--2 td--2 int......... Nov 17, 2019...Houston 07 vs Ravens 41...Out.......44*....Grs......10 mph..18/30169--0 tds--1 int........ Nov 15, 2020...Houston 07 vs Browns 10...Out.......59*....Grs......25 mph..20/30/163--1 td...Mayfield..12/20/132 Dec 13, 2020...Houston 07 vs Bears 36.....Out.......34*....Grs......No wind..21/30/219--1 td--
Just snapshot of some of Watson's late season games.
If the Browns met with him; they are coming with an offer.
My guess the Browns have been on Watson for a long time. This becomes a Haslam deal. He and his wife have to be in on this.
Lots of "stuff" to consider and that includes a plan to rebuild his reputation and integrate him to Cleveland. This is not business as usual.
This is a major step for a bunch of people. This is a big deal.
I got rocked yesterday with the Braves letting Freddie Freeman walk after eleven years. I never thought that would happen.
Now I may have to come to grips with Watson. I think there is a real good chance that this deal happens. Baker in Texas where he comes from. The Browns ready to give up what it will take. It is all on Watson saying it is ok with coming to Cleveland.
The world turns on it's own terms. Players come and go. You are fans of the uniform and helmet. Sure we like guys like Chubb and others we buy jerseys with their names. But this is a business about winning and ownership will do as they see fit.
If this goes down there will be a campaign to make Watson look like a new person. In a year or so it will be in the rear view mirror and it will be about results on the field. The fans will be in the stands and winning will be mantra.
At lease DeShaun didn't make a circus out of his decision after all the decent free agents were taken leaving the team in a mess like LePunk did.
?? Lebron was a FA. Watson just signed his contract extension and decided to hold out the following season. then came the accusations, oddly right after he decided to hold out. He might not have intended to be a circus, but thats exactly what ended up happening.
If the Browns met with him; they are coming with an offer.
I agree. Watson may be able to void a trade on the back end, but Texas can void a trade on the front end. If the Browns offer wasn't good enough by the Texans standards, we wouldn't even be allowed in the building.
One thing is for sure that team building, creating a healthy and player friendly culture isn’t Andrew Berry’s strongest asset. Talk about lose and lose situation.
Either give up the next couple of years by trading two maybe three well established players and a multiple of first and second rounds picks or just end up with a total clusterfck. Take your pick.
One thing is for sure that team building, creating a healthy and player friendly culture isn’t Andrew Berry’s strongest asset. Talk about lose and lose situation.
Either give up the next couple of years by trading two maybe three well established players and a multiple of first and second rounds picks or just end up with a total clusterfck. Take your pick.
Those aren't the only possible picks.
I worry more about the loss of picks. Until we know what we might lose if all of this goes down, there is no sense in taking a deep dive in to what that might mean to this team
How set are we at various positions for the next several years would be one of the issues to discuss. I like picks as much as anyone, but if the roster is fairly stable, picks don't have to be used on college players.
We also have to take in to account Baker. How much would we want to pay v how much would he want? Or with all that has happened, would he even want to sign? He may decide to move on or be happy to play under a expensive franchise tag. Baker has moved on from college programs. I don't think it beyond his personality type to hold a grudge. He may have already told Berry that he won't sign with us unless it is the top dollar offer. He may have already said he is going to give a discount to some other team if our offer isn't far and above the best offer.
One thing is for sure that team building, creating a healthy and player friendly culture isn’t Andrew Berry’s strongest asset. Talk about lose and lose situation.
Either give up the next couple of years by trading two maybe three well established players and a multiple of first and second rounds picks or just end up with a total clusterfck. Take your pick.
man screw those picks. im tired of winning the draft every year. that hasnt done crap for this team since 99. if you have the opportunity to go get a certified franchise QB, you do it.
also, player friendly? you dont think browns players are gonna welcome Watson with open arms if he gets traded here? stop it.
Jarvis Landry 2020 (injury free) vs. Amari Cooper 2022. = I’m not so sure…
Baker Mayfield 2020 (injury free) vs. DeShaun Watson 2022 (22 lawsuits distraction, not playing for 21 months, not used to windy and cold weather) = Watson is a better QB but when we factor all the circumstances….
2022 and 2023 without multiple draft picks. I’m not so sure the Browns is taking such a a huge step forward with trading Watson and losing a couple of established players.
At lease DeShaun didn't make a circus out of his decision after all the decent free agents were taken leaving the team in a mess like LePunk did.
?? Lebron was a FA. Watson just signed his contract extension and decided to hold out the following season. then came the accusations, oddly right after he decided to hold out. He might not have intended to be a circus, but that's exactly what ended up happening.
LeBron waited to make his "Decision" in that circus well after all the other free agents were signed. If he cared one bit about the fans he would have let Cleveland know he wasn't going to resign earlier so they could have tried to get someone to replace him. I see your point about Watson creating a circus, but his wasn't a planned event. Watson is a POS and I don't want him in Cleveland regardless of his talent. He and Lebron are birds of a feather, talented but despicable human beings IMHO. Yes, I'm still bitter about the "Decision".
I wonder if the Browns and Watson's team had this planned days ago but just not confirmed by reporters or if this came about as a result of yesterday's meetings w/ the Saints and Panthers.
If Mayfield is so affected by this, then he's not the guy some think he is.
Maybe. But Baker is human just like the rest of us. The Browns said they were committed to him and that he would start the year at QB (which clearly was PR speak and they are looking to replace him) and they would need to sell the farm to get Watson, which they are willing to do.
I think that would affect most people in any industry. I don't think we should assume Baker, just because he is a QB in the NFL, means he has to have this emotional kevlar vest on at all times. I think it would be a perfectly natural reaction.
Jarvis Landry 2020 (injury free) vs. Amari Cooper 2022. = I’m not so sure…
Baker Mayfield 2020 (injury free) vs. DeShaun Watson 2022 (22 lawsuits distraction, not playing for 21 months, not used to windy and cold weather) = Watson is a better QB but when we factor all the circumstances….
2022 and 2023 without multiple draft picks. I’m not so sure the Browns is taking such a a huge step forward with trading Watson and losing a couple of established players.
Forget the Hunt Dernest deal. DJ is more long term. Hunt is gone after this season. I am perfectly good with Chubb and DJ as the top 2 backs. It will still be one of the best tandems in the league.
IMO the Browns have been on the whole Watson thing for a long time.
Long before the recent ruling on the criminal indictment.
They are smack dab in the middle of this deal.
Take the weather out of this. We offer a better chance to win than the Panthers and Saints.
The Panthers offer a softer landing because he played at Clemson and was hero there. So the community will be more friendly. But the Panthers are far from a good team.
Both the Texans and Watson have to agree. The Texans could say I don't like the Panthers deal. So this is a mutual agreement deal.
The Texans may like Baker as a local guy and a quarterback.
I truly believe the Browns will have the best offer overall. If Watson approves this deal will happen. Today they get to meet. It is a two way meeting.
Questions from both parties. This is where the deal will happen or not.
If Mayfield is so affected by this, then he's not the guy some think he is.
I brought it up a little earlier this morning. Baker seems to me to be the type to hold a grudge. I think we better go all in on Watson because I have a feeling that if we don't just use the expensive franchise tag on the guy, he isn't going to sign with us unless the offer is way above anything else he receives. He may even sign somewhere for much less.
Do you really think we offered all that? Come on man...Just how is that building a team...lol
We seem fairly set at critical positions. We must feel that getting the QB is more important than anything a rookie can contibute the next few years.
With the cap going up, we can rely more on free agency for a year or two. I like picks as well, but sometimes using picks for established players is the move to make.
How would it work out? Who knows?(shrug) Just like you never know how it is going to work out with drafted players.
JC...I also wonder if the Browns are looking at the market for contracts, and realizing even if Baker has another soso year, that it is still going to cost a ton to retain a QB whom isn't elite...And they can obtain a QB whom is considered elite (Watson) for near the same salary. And I think Watson is under contract for 3 or 4 more years. (As Watson's huge contract, now seems more feasible in what we've seen with 2022's contracts)
If Mayfield is so affected by this, then he's not the guy some think he is.
i disagree a bit. i think its natural to feel some type of way if your franchise is actively searching for an upgrade at the position you start at. i think what you say is true IF he decided to throw a hissy fit and sit out or something, but its a natural feeling to be ticked off about an organization trying to replace you.
One of the narratives on Mayfield is that he's a winner and has the mentality of a winner and can handle adversity per the path he took through college (he had to walk on two different teams or something?). He took that adversity in stride and just did his thing and 'won'.
Berry is really starting to irritate me and is acting desperate and starting to make really questionable decisions.
Acting desperate? Why, because people actually believed their comments that it was set in stone Baker was the starter next year? It's his job to try and upgrade every position on the roster and he has always said as much
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Watson doesn't want to be here.
Why has agreed to meet with the Browns?
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Most Browns fans don't want Watson here.
Until he wins games. The same was said about Kareem Hunt.
something tells me the dawgpound will be sold out cheering for watson week 1, if he's traded here.
1. it's been reported in every way possible that he was choosing between Saints and Panthers and he didn't want to waive his trade rights
2. IDK there are a lot of pissed-off women in Cleveland that we are enraged that we are even considering trading for him.
1. clearly the reports are wrong, because he's meeting with the team today. he doesn't have to meet with us, and the texans didn't have to grant us a meeting with him.
2. there were ticked off women when we signed hunt too. seems like the stadium didn't lack women in the stands whatsoever.
There has been a LOT of "reporting" regarding Watson. None of what I've read would I call 'solid'. Rumor at best, IMO. Jumping to conclusions doesn't really help until we know we actually have something to get bent outta shape about.
So along those lines, knowing full well that Watson still has a long road to go to get out from under his legal issues (not even talking about morality here, just his legal cases), I don't think Berry and KS would suddenly swing for the fences for a guy that's going to cost a ton AND might not be available for a while.
If nothing else, KS and AB are way too pragmatic to sell the farm for Watson (at this point).
If the Browns met with him; they are coming with an offer.
I agree. Watson may be able to void a trade on the back end, but Texas can void a trade on the front end. If the Browns offer wasn't good enough by the Texans standards, we wouldn't even be allowed in the building.
Not necessarily... the more teams that actually meet with Watson the higher the Texans can drive the price...
Watching the back on forth on this, talking about the cost of getting Watson. It basically comes down to a single point, if you don't have the QB on the team, nothing else matters. Thats why they are willing to part with whatever to get him. It's also why getting your QB in the draft is always the best move long term because of the cost to acquire later. As far as Watson himself, noone on this board knows what they actual situation is. All that really matters is that a grand jury didn't even find enough to charge him, which usually doesn't take much probably cause to atleast level a charge at him. They couldn't even do that. As far as the accusations of the women, well I'm not sure how much is true and how much is a money grab. Also the fact that the timing of this coming out when he asked for a trade is a bit suspicious. But only those close to it know for sure. I also don't think a suspension is a sure thing. Not being charged criminally def puts the brakes on the civil stuff and gives Watson a leg to stand on he didn't have before. From a player perspective, its easy to see why the browns are looking at him.. Baker hasn't had the growth they expected and can't make plays consistently. They obviously don't see a fit with he and stefanski. If i'm be honest, I don't think Stefanski's system will work long term if he don't adjust to the rest of the NFL, Giving Njoku the franchise tag was a bad move imo. But I think Baker can still be successful in the right system, its just not here. So no sense in prolonging it and at the end of the day, Berry and Co's job is directly tied to the moves they make and the success they bring. But Watson is a CLEAR upgrade. He would make cleveland instant contenders. But one thing is for sure, there isn't any chance Baker is here next year, even if the browns want him
Berry is not going to let Baker hear this on social media. He is does not want to alienate Baker if he remains with the Browns. It is the professional thing to do. Baker will roll with the punches.
He has moved before. For all we know he may like the idea of being in Texas.
I would rather roll with Baker. But in the end players come and go. I am about the Browns and have no input on decisions made.
I think this thing is way further along than what people think.
IMO the civil cases will be settled. Haslam may already know if the NFL will suspend him.
Plans will be in place from a PR standpoint to begin to reframe Watson's image. He will be visible with his wife with charities and community involvement.
There are full throttle plans in place.
The decision is Texans, Watson, Haslam and Berry.
I don't like it but that is what I think is going down.
Exactly, I think the Browns already know exactly what the NFL plans on doing with Watson and have a plan in place for it. Berry doesn't seem like a guy to leave a stone unturned and when he makes a move he has all the info.
Berry is really starting to irritate me and is acting desperate and starting to make really questionable decisions.
Watson doesn't want to be here.
Most Browns fans don't want Watson here.
Watson will likely be suspended by the NFL (6+ games is expected) and we will be sacrificing 2022's season before it begins.
We will be in cap hell
Couldn’t agree more. Building a successful organization in a city who’s already crippled with disadvantages like colder climate and offering a relative small market must include intangibles like being player friendly and having a welcoming culture. Andrew Berry is acting like he’s the new sheriff in town swinging his guns all over the place. It’s a dangerous road.
Being over aggressive when it comes to trading players often creates tension and uncertainties. Who’s safe, who’s next out of the door? After decades of underachieving results the FO in Cleveland is acting like they are a top dog, that’s not the case. Most successful teams are built with patience and a long term plan. Not like this with key players who’s flying in and out all the time.
OBJ was never committed to Cleveland. What happened? The sign was there from the first minute. DeShaun Watson gives me the same vibes. Time will tell but this last 24h seems like a organization who’s nowhere and everywhere at the same time. If the Browns isn’t successful with trading Watson to the Browns then Berry has a lot to answer.
Berry is really starting to irritate me and is acting desperate and starting to make really questionable decisions.
Watson doesn't want to be here.
Most Browns fans don't want Watson here.
Watson will likely be suspended by the NFL (6+ games is expected) and we will be sacrificing 2022's season before it begins.
We will be in cap hell
Couldn’t agree more. Building a successful organization in a city who’s already crippled with disadvantages like colder climate and offering a relative small market must include intangibles like being player friendly and having a welcoming culture. Andrew Berry is acting like he’s the new sheriff in town swinging his guns all over the place. It’s a dangerous road.
Being over aggressive when it comes to trading players often creates tension and uncertainties. Who’s safe, who’s next out of the door? After decades of underachieving results the FO in Cleveland is acting like they are a top dog, that’s not the case. Most successful teams are built with patience and a long term plan. Not like this with key players who’s flying in and out all the time.
OBJ was never committed to Cleveland. What happened? The sign was there from the first minute. DeShaun Watson gives me the same vibes. Time will tell but this last 24h seems like a organization who’s nowhere and everywhere at the same time. If the Browns isn’t successful with trading Watson to the Browns then Berry has a lot to answer.
what does he have to answer for if the trade doesn't happen...that doesn't even make sense. Its pretty obvious, they aren't behind Baker long term. His job is to get players his coaching staff feel good about running their system. Its obvious they don't feel thats baker, nothing to answer for.
I think AB and KS are very intelligent and they have had to plan this all along.
Initial Plan - Pursue Watson once he was acquitted of criminal charges and trading Baker as partial compensation.
Contingency Plan - Watson not attained, Baker alienated, trade for Garropolo, trade Baker, draft Willis/Ridder.
Hold the horses my man. It’s a huge difference between being intelligent and making smart decisions. There is nothing so far that indicates that Berry is any smarter or more successful then the rest of the NFL GMs. Results don’t lie. Come back when the Browns is a top 4 team then we can talk.
I think AB and KS are very intelligent and they have had to plan this all along.
Initial Plan - Pursue Watson once he was acquitted of criminal charges and trading Baker as partial compensation.
Contingency Plan - Watson not attained, Baker alienated, trade for Garropolo, trade Baker, draft Willis/Ridder.
Hold the horses my man. It’s a huge difference between being intelligent and making smart decisions. There is nothing so far that indicates that Berry is any smarter or more successful then the rest of the NFL GMs. Results don’t lie. Come back when the Browns is a top 4 team then we can talk.
Or they simply don't care. I mean if they don't have him figured in for the future plans, I can't see why they would care if they piss Baker off or not
Or they simply don't care. I mean if they don't have him figured in for the future plans, I can't see why they would care if they piss Baker off or not
Obviously IMO and FWIW, but this doesn't sound like AB and KS.
Berry is really starting to irritate me and is acting desperate and starting to make really questionable decisions.
Watson doesn't want to be here.
Most Browns fans don't want Watson here.
Watson will likely be suspended by the NFL (6+ games is expected) and we will be sacrificing 2022's season before it begins.
We will be in cap hell
Couldn’t agree more. Building a successful organization in a city who’s already crippled with disadvantages like colder climate and offering a relative small market must include intangibles like being player friendly and having a welcoming culture. Andrew Berry is acting like he’s the new sheriff in town swinging his guns all over the place. It’s a dangerous road.
Being over aggressive when it comes to trading players often creates tension and uncertainties. Who’s safe, who’s next out of the door? After decades of underachieving results the FO in Cleveland is acting like they are a top dog, that’s not the case. Most successful teams are built with patience and a long term plan. Not like this with key players who’s flying in and out all the time.
OBJ was never committed to Cleveland. What happened? The sign was there from the first minute. DeShaun Watson gives me the same vibes. Time will tell but this last 24h seems like a organization who’s nowhere and everywhere at the same time. If the Browns isn’t successful with trading Watson to the Browns then Berry has a lot to answer.
...They are building with patience and a long term plan? They're not committing a ton of money to outside free agents and are instead making calculated short term deals that don't have long-term ramifications to fill current needs. They want to draft and develop their guys. It just so happens that the team is good enough that they are unlikely to be able to draft a franchise caliber QB, and while Baker is the guy they have, he wasn't necessarily their choice or the best fit for what they envision.
Berry didn't bring in OBJ. Commitment takes two.
Adapting someone else's roster to fit your vision/plan for the team takes time. Players on the team may want the opportunity to go somewhere that they fit better. Trades can work out for both sides.
Holding onto someone that doesn't want to be here would likely cause more problems than trading them.
You can ease tension and uncertainties by communicating. What's said publicly isn't necessarily what's told to players behind closed doors.
Andrew Berry is the "sheriff." I don't see the gun swinging that you do. He's doing his job.
If a move can help the team, he should look into it.
Unfortunately, you can't just make players come to your team outside of the draft. However you can have conversations with players and possibly convince them that your team is a better situation for them than they had realized.
If true, this kind of stuff runs counter to their behaviors that have allowed them to achieve the success they have in their limited time here. Me no likey.
Excuses and excuses. I don’t have it. So far I see nothing on his CV that indicates future success. If the Browns win their division it’s a first step. Then I will be the first one give him tons of credit.
Reading all this back and forth about Watson is kind of worthless since the Browns are going to do what they are going to do. Doesn't matter at this stage anyone's personal opinion is of the guy - it's what the Browns think. That's the first part - the second part and I would be shocked if it doesn't come up in the interview - will the Browns be competing with a scheme that's QB friendly or does Watson have to adjust to a run first scheme that downplays his skill set. You might say that this has no bearing but it doesn't take much smarts to see that Stefanski took a gun slinger Heisman Trophy winner and turned him into a game manager that now they are unhappy with him. Stefanski chased away Diggs in Minnesota (documented) due to his scheme and IMHO he chased away OBJ. The team only has one bonafide top 50 WR on the roster and two TE's that couldn't get more than 40 receptions each. One of the TE's has averaged only 30 receptions per year for the last 5-years. If the Browns and Stefanski are committed to running the offense as they have the last 2-years then IMHO that will be the ultimate deal breaker between the two parties. Watson has a choice of where he will be going all things considered equal, he knows that 2-3 years down the road he will be in the market for either an huge extension or big pay day from some other team. Only a fool would come to a team that is not QB friendly in a league that places such a high commodity on that exact type of player.
If Carolina and New Orleans are the actual competitors, those teams have an automatic leg up on the Browns because those teams will expect Watson to pass often as they continue to build around him. At this point, Stefanski has not shown the willingness to do that in Minnesota or Cleveland. You have to ask yourself, of the so called run first teams - Cleveland, Tennessee, NY Giants, Baltimore, Minnesota, Philadelphia, SFO and Indpls, how many conference championship games have they been too in the last 2 years (2021 - 1 out of 4, 2020 - 0 out of 4)? How many Super Bowls have they been too when compared to the pass friendly teams (answer 0 out of 4)? The Browns can get to the playoffs with a Baker Mayfield. They obviously don't believe they can get to the Super Bowl with Mayfield. They still might not even with Watson but you can rest assured that they will not if Stefanski does to Watson what he did to Cousins in 2019 and Mayfield the last 2-years - making him into a game manager.
I have to wonder if Stefanski will simply run tape and show all the missed opportunities baker had in the passing game.
Watson would fit stefanski’s system perfectly, especially since teams have to choose between stacking the box or playing zone.
I’m not sure Watson is a QB who cares about throwing more than handing off anyway. While he is most certainly an elite QB, we have to remember that he had to throw as much as he did or the Texans wasn’t gonna win many games.
With our run game and O line, plus big body TEs, Watson won’t get sacked nearly as many times as he did in Houston. Plus, having that dominate run game makes the execution of the passing game that much easier.
Remember, the one good year baker had, he threw 3800 yards in 2020 even with us being run dominate. Watson can get to 4K easy in Stefanski’s scheme.
Releasing Tretter always seemed to be a move that was going to happen due to age and being in his final year. Leaving Harris on the bench another year doesn't do any more for his development at this time. It was time to pass the torch and save the 8.325M in cap space.
One thing teams negotiating a trade for Watson need to keep on mind. The Texans essentially have to trade him because of his contract. There is no way they can keep him on the roater and not okay him with a $40 million dollar cap hip.
That's why I didn't want to trade for Watson, the asking price versus the talent difference between Waston and Mayfield is just way to much. I was hearing that Houston wanted 3-1sts, Mayfied, Hunt, Ward plus other picks and players on top of it.
My ideal scenario is for Watson to be traded to the Falcons. They turn around and trade Matt Ryan to us. We then trade Baker to the Seahawks or Eagles. We draft our star qb of the future in next year's draft which looks like it is going to be extremely talented and deep at Qb.
My actual ideal ideal scenario is that we keep Baker and he surpasses Brady in number of super bowls won. But that is starting to look like it won't even get a chance going forward..
No matter how you slice it, Bakers time in.Cleveland as its QB is closing No extension. And the real intrest in Watson. Just put the pieces Together. In.this part of the NFL fanworld, Baker is regarded As a franchise QB by some. But in the eyes of Stefanski and Berry and Haslam He is looked upon as a QB of a franchise. Huge difference I think in a indirect way, the emergence of Joe Burrow and The Bengals has caused the Browns to find a QB who can Get the Browns to advance past the Bengals. Berry didnt expect the Bengals to get it turned around this fast The Steelers arent going to win the North with Trubisky The Ravens are a playoff team with a healthy roster So.Berry has to react to what the other North teams are doing
If true, this kind of stuff runs counter to their behaviors that have allowed them to achieve the success they have in their limited time here. Me no likey.
Is perhaps Haslam forcing the issue??
It is what it is, but I don't like it. We're already in a position where we're hard up against the Cap with still having glaring holes and now we're going to not address those holes and eat up the last of our Cap and give up God knows what else to make this move. I know some folks are excited, but to me this has "Impending Disaster" written ALL OVER IT. If we go this route, we're two years out from blowing it all up again.
We're already in a position where we're hard up against the Cap with still having glaring holes and now we're going to not address those holes and eat up the last of our Cap and give up God knows what else to make this move.
Jack Duffin @JackDuffin Replying to @perrydawg57 You can get Watson down to $9.875m for 2022 so would be okay
Between this and Milk's last post.... we really don't KNOW a whole lot of what's actually going on. I believe we have a good enough feel for AB and KS to be justified in not taking a lot of these reports at face value.
I said I wouldn’t post about Watson again but a lot has changed yesterday. This is what we know:
He met with the Panthers and Saints yesterday. He will meet with the Browns today. He said no to a meeting with the Seahawks. The Texans rejected the Colts request to meet with him. That’s it.
Schefter says the Falcons are interested. That is interesting because Watson is from Atlanta and it would mean Matt Ryan is available.
Yeah, according to our own DT'er poll, one third of people seem excited about it. If this actually happens it's obviously all a Halslam move.
In what world do you think it the people on DawgTalkers have any voice in team matters, ever? Dude, your reading compression sucks. Go back and read what I wrote and what it was responding to.
Here's the problem, you took my comment as being in opposition of your entire post. Anyone who has been reading the Watson threads at all must know I agree with the context of your post. Pointing out that as much as the people supporting the idea of Watson coming tend to yell the loudest, they are in the minority isn't trying to rail against the overall points you made in your post.
Comprehension is a problem some people have. Context is another one.
Polls generally attract people with strong feelings towards the subject matter. Being dead set against it is easy. Those that are for it are probably more conflicted.
Even if you don't think Watson did the alleged things, being seen to "condone" the alleged things is psychologically difficult. Especially when the prevailing narrative is about what a creeper Watson is.
That doesn't make the prevailing sentiment true.
As far as the poll on this board, I didn't vote because the way it is worded is nonsense. I wouldn't trade for Watson "regardless of cost." If the cost is right and our investigation comes up clean, I would.
Lousy polls don't allow for nuance. They mainly allow angry people to feel heard.
With the excitement generated by a certain portion of the fan base, this will attract people from both sides. To try and claim the feelings of those wanting Watson here isn't as strong as those who do not want him here I think is a false premise. Just look at our own poll as a guideline. Two thirds of our posters do not want Watson here. Yet when reading the comments it's not even close to being two thirds negative comments. Sure it's a small sample size but it speaks volumes in regards to your premise.
With the excitement generated by a certain portion of the fan base, this will attract people from both sides. To try and claim the feelings of those wanting Watson here isn't as strong as those who do not want him here I think is a false premise. Just look at our own poll as a guideline. Two thirds of our posters do not want Watson here. Yet when reading the comments it's not even close to being two thirds negative comments. Sure it's a small sample size but it speaks volumes in regards to your premise.
Yes - the "anyone but Baker" crowd are not on the fence no matter what. And it is an anonymous poll I am sure. I bet there are people in favor who have never seen Watson throw a football.
With the excitement generated by a certain portion of the fan base, this will attract people from both sides. To try and claim the feelings of those wanting Watson here isn't as strong as those who do not want him here I think is a false premise. Just look at our own poll as a guideline. Two thirds of our posters do not want Watson here. Yet when reading the comments it's not even close to being two thirds negative comments. Sure it's a small sample size but it speaks volumes in regards to your premise.
I never said the Pro-Watson crowd had less strong feelings. It's just harder to rationalize them down to a simple yes or no vote. Especially in the current social climate.
It's impossible to encapsulate maybe we should get Watson if.... in a yes or no poll.
I think everything you brought up supports my position. I'm not sure how you managed to twist them to be the opposite.
I had no idea that abusing women was a "current social climate". From a young child I was always taught you never make unwanted advances or force yourself in a sexual way upon women. I know it's convenient to try and blame it on current trends but I'm willing to bet you were taught the same things I was in regards to women while growing up.
Before the 2021 season Mike Sando from The Athletic wrote his annual QB Tiers column (https://theathletic.com/2727336/202...nd-evaluators-rank-the-leagues-starters/). The column is based on an, "All-star voting panel [that] included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities."
Watson was ranked fifth. Baker was ranked 17th (coming off of his great run in 2020).
This is what was said about Watson:
Quote
Watson was fifth overall and the final quarterback in the top tier last year as well. The accusations made against him in civil lawsuits did not affect how voters evaluated him as a player, although the uncertainty surrounding the situation created additional options.
“I feel like you can put him a 1, 2 or 4 and not be wrong,” a defensive coordinator said. “You could ‘4’ him for who the [f-word] knows what is going to happen. I’m going to go 1. If he is on the field, he is a 1.”
Watson led the NFL last season in EPA per pass attempt and yards per attempt.
“He throws with accuracy, he’s got vision, he keeps plays alive, he can be scary,” a secondary coach said.
Watson also took 49 sacks. Only Carson Wentz took more (50).
“We played them and I definitely would not put him as a 1,” a defensive coordinator said. “You don’t go into the week thinking, ‘Oh my God, we have to deal with this guy.’ He’s not like a pure drop-back passer, so he creates a lot with is legs. He can make throws. He has a good arm. But when you play him you are not afraid of him beating you throwing the ball. You are more concerned, if he drops back, hey, we got to make sure we tackle this guy.”
Some who argued against Watson’s inclusion in Tier 1 thought the best quarterbacks should elevate their teams more than Watson elevated the 4-12 Texans.
“You would think with just the sheer nature of a 1 they would have won more games and at least threatened for playoff position,” a GM said. “We have seen Rodgers do that. Watson played and they still are picking in the top five. Great talent, the 1 is in him, but he is going to have to get everything more structured, including his personal life.”
Houston ranked eighth in offensive EPA despite having traded receiver DeAndre Hopkins. The Texans ranked 31st in combined EPA on defense and special teams, the No. 1 driver of their poor record. Since 2006, teams ranked 31st in that category have averaged 4.5 victories. Of those teams, the best records belonged to Jay Cutler’s 2013 Bears (8-8), Cutler’s 2007 Broncos (7-9) and Drew Brees’ 2016 Saints (7-9). There were no Tier 1-caliber quarterbacks on the other teams.
“They won because of him without anything around him,” an exec said of the Watson-led Texans. “They would not have won even four games without him.”
Here is what was said about Baker:
Quote
Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.
“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”
This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.
“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”
The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.
“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”
Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.
“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.
Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.
“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”
“Quarterback is the most important position in sports,” [Berry] said. “And so for me, as I came up under Bill [Polian] and pretty much every stop, this was the belief, and certainly my last stop in Philly: It’s make sure we do everything to support that position first and foremost. Because you can do a lot of really great things, but if that position isn’t solved and the environment isn’t conducive to that player having success, then you’re really kind of stuck in neutral,” Berry said. “So we’re doing everything that we can do to support the quarterback, because ultimately that’s the position that’s going to drive you. Then, once we get that environment settled, whether it’s on-field or off-field, then, really, kind of transition into [other] priorities.”
Most of us also grew up to treat people like their innocent until they are proven guilty. It is a right as a citizen in our society.
Yet it seems some of us weren't taught to try and use any common sense whatsoever. That's why you have people believe that 22 women are lying while only one man is telling the truth. In most cases they aren't actually dumb enough to believe that. They've just gotten to the point they're willing to sell their souls for a shot at a SB win.
I'll tell you what, if you have a daughter, a niece or some young woman who holds a significant place in your family that this ever happens to, tell them that no matter what they say, you don't believe the man is guilty of what they're saying unless he's convicted in court.
This what I'm talking about the guy is a talented QB, but we don't need his baggage, IMO 22 Women aren't all lying, and just because he avoided criminal charges doesn't make him innocent, so why go after this guy when we have a QB that has already shown when healthy he can take this team to the playoffs, he is a QB who wants to play here, and he will have huge Chip on his shoulder which he has had his entire career and came out on top. So Why? And look at what they want, you are mortgaging your draft future + giving away 3 Starters IMO that's nuts please Watson choose another team to ruin ...
Personally, I do not want Watson. I think that there is far too much smoke.
I think he is talented, but the rest concerns me.
I worry that we have ruined the team's relationship with Baker. He was bad last year, while working through multiple injuries ...... but he has the talent to be an upper level playoff QB. I just think that he is donen here, even if we don't trade for Watson.
I worry that we have ruined the team's relationship with Baker. He was bad last year, while working through multiple injuries ...... but he has the talent to be an upper level playoff QB. I just think that he is donen here, even if we don't trade for Watson.
It's pretty clear what the team thinks of Baker at this point.
Most of us also grew up to treat people like their innocent until they are proven guilty. It is a right as a citizen in our society.
Yet it seems some of us weren't taught to try and use any common sense whatsoever. That's why you have people believe that 22 women are lying while only one man is telling the truth. In most cases they aren't actually dumb enough to believe that. They've just gotten to the point they're willing to sell their souls for a shot at a SB win.
I'll tell you what, if you have a daughter, a niece or some young woman who holds a significant place in your family that this ever happens to, tell them that no matter what they say, you don't believe the man is guilty of what they're saying unless he's convicted in court.
But, your using what was said in the media to draw your conclusions. There are for sure things behind closed doors that are not being said in the public. It is a dangerous game to always just believe what they are told thru the media. At this point in time the only facts we have is 22 accusations but not enough evidence to charge.
He may have done these crimes and he may not have and there is 22 woman hoping to get a pay check. It is not up to me to determine unless I was asked to be on the jury. All I know is in this country we have a right as a citizen to be innocent until proven guilty. In the biblical world we are to think the best of everyone. To not judge thru our own standards or we could be judged by those same standards. To judge everything against the word of God (Bible). Who am I to judge Deshaun Watson. Those without sins throw the first stone. So until he is found guilty I will think the best of him and see him as innocent until he is proven guilty.
It is very dangerous for a society to determine guilt and innocence in the media or court of public opinion.
If a player refuses to play you don't pay him. Anyone who thinks you have to pay a player who refuses to enter the field of play has no idea how contracts work. Houston paid him well over 10 mil. last year. That's what a team has to do when a player is available to play even if they decide not to play him.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
If a player refuses to play you don't pay him. Anyone who thinks you have to pay a player who refuses to enter the field of play has no idea how contracts work. Houston paid him well over 10 mil. last year. That's what a team has to do when a player is available to play even if they decide not to play him.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
yea and he wasnt sam darnold bad, and sam went for a couple of 2nds.
Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Swish
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
I was wondering the same thing and I think that is very possible, I mean Baker was the #1 pick in the draft ...
yea and he wasnt sam darnold bad, and sam went for a couple of 2nds.
Originally Posted by cfrs15
Originally Posted by Swish
is a 3 team trade possible? say we get watson and send texans some draft capital, but do something crazy where we send Baker to an NFC team like the seahawks or Saints to get the 1st rounder this year back?
No one is trading a first round pick for Baker.
From what I understand the Texans like Davis Mills. My guess is that if the deal happens then we move Baker to the Saints, Sehawks, Panthers, or Colts. I would guess we get a third rounder back for him.
never say never.
Darnold had two years left on his deal and people thought Adam Gase destroyed him (it turns out he was just bad). Mayfield has one year left on his deal, a bum shoulder, and is coming off a year in which he was one of the worst QBs in the league. If we get more than a third for him throw a parade.
And you've given the perfect example of why many women never come forward in the first place and most women aren't recording their dates when they are attacked or treated improperly in a sexual way. It is illegal to videotape a message due to privacy reasons for the person getting the message.
What this does is create a he said/she said situation that makes it nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. That's the threshold for pressing criminal charges. So that means you have to decide if you find that 22 women are making everything up while one man is telling the truth or not. Trying to convict someone with no witnesses or DNA in a criminal court case is nearly impossible. That has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. Your biblical reference is in regards to stoning someone. Nothing more. I'm sure for the vast majority of women in our country dismissing their word when there's an overwhelming amount of women making such accusations over one man is far more dangerous to them in our society than what you are saying is dangerous.
It's 22-1. This isn't difficult
Let me tell you another thing. We have a female on this very board who at least was a licensed massage therapist. I have not seen her step forward to comment on this issue. But she and the type of women who are actually legitimate message therapists are not some seedy characters looking to give out happy endings. I find her to be of very good character. There's no way I would deny believing anything like this that she would tell me. Under your scenario we would ave to believe all 22 of them are money grubbing liars and only Deshawn Watson was the beacon of truth here.
I think the very notion of that is beyond ridiculous.
I had no idea that abusing women was a "current social climate". From a young child I was always taught you never make unwanted advances or force yourself in a sexual way upon women. I know it's convenient to try and blame it on current trends but I'm willing to bet you were taught the same things I was in regards to women while growing up.
No, I was talking more about media stories and feelings trumping facts- The court of public opinion with regards to the "current social climate."
I was also brought up to treat woman as equals. They're as capable of being in the wrong as men. They're not just always innocent flowers that need to be protected by tough guys.
There can be female "predators," too.
A shady lawyer could round up 22 women to claim that you are a sexual predator. Does that make you one?
Something being on social media or in the "news" doesn't make it true.
I'm guessing reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Watson probably did something borderline. Some of the massage therapists probably tried to get Watson to cross the line. Some of them are probably just in it for the money. Some may even feel they were legitimately "assaulted."
I haven't seen any evidence of the last one. Apparently neither did the legal system.
Having sex with a woman and then having her feel scorned later isn't a crime, though.
Getting a sports massage is kind of a weird situation. Someone's being paid to put their hands on someone else's groin. Physiological responses happen.
The legal system didn't find anything criminal. I've seen no evidence of forcible contact.
Our society is in a weird place where sex is both celebrated and castigated.
We should probably just go ahead and legalize prostitution. Regulate it. Let people be straightforward about what they are looking for. Be safe about it.
Not my thing, but there's a reason it's considered the world's oldest profession. Plus, Jesus liked to hang out with them.
Now if I knew Watson forcibly did something against someone's will, I'm all for bringing back stoning.
And you've given the perfect example of why many women never come forward in the first place and most women aren't recording their dates when they are attacked or treated improperly in a sexual way. It is illegal to videotape a message due to privacy reasons for the person getting the message.
What this does is create a he said/she said situation that makes it nearly impossible to prove beyond a reasonable doubt in a court of law. That's the threshold for pressing criminal charges. So that means you have to decide if you find that 22 women are making everything up while one man is telling the truth or not. Trying to convict someone with no witnesses or DNA in a criminal court case is nearly impossible. That has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. Your biblical reference is in regards to stoning someone. Nothing more. I'm sure for the vast majority of women in our country dismissing their word when there's an overwhelming amount of women making such accusations over one man is far more dangerous to them in our society than what you are saying is dangerous.
It's 22-1. This isn't difficult
Let me tell you another thing. We have a female on this very board who at least was a licensed massage therapist. I have not seen her step forward to comment on this issue. But she and the type of women who are actually legitimate message therapists are not some seedy characters looking to give out happy endings. I find her to be of very good character. There's no way I would deny believing anything like this that she would tell me. Under your scenario we would ave to believe all 22 of them are money grubbing liars and only Deshawn Watson was the beacon of truth here.
I think the very notion of that is beyond ridiculous.
Until a court of his peers convict he is to be considered innocent. Innocent until proven guilty. That is the law of the land and our rights as a citizen. Once he is convicted then and only then how he is to be considered changes.
A shady lawyer could round up 22 women to claim that you are a sexual predator. Does that make you one?
Something being on social media or in the "news" doesn't make it true.
I'm guessing reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Watson probably did something borderline. Some of the massage therapists probably tried to get Watson to cross the line. Some of them are probably just in it for the money. Some may even feel they were legitimately "assaulted."
I haven't seen any evidence of the last one. Apparently neither did the legal system.
Having sex with a woman and then having her feel scorned later isn't a crime, though.
Getting a sports massage is kind of a weird situation. Someone's being paid to put their hands on someone else's groin. Physiological responses happen.
The legal system didn't find anything criminal. I've seen no evidence of forcible contact.
Our society is in a weird place where sex is both celebrated and castigated.
We should probably just go ahead and legalize prostitution. Regulate it. Let people be straightforward about what they are looking for. Be safe about it.
Not my thing, but there's a reason it's considered the world's oldest profession. Plus, Jesus liked to hang out with them.
Now if I knew Watson forcibly did something against someone's will, I'm all for bringing back stoning.
This is sickening. This didn't start out as 22 women with a lawyer. Why in the hell can't you figure out that criminal courts do not prosecute he said. she said cases because there's no way to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? That has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Your response is sickening and degrading to women.
Look, I'm not choosing my side on this... but the lawyer (Tony Busbee (sp?)) did go and seek out all the women he could find to bring accusations against Watson. I wouldn't call that "rounding up women to claim you are a sexual predator", but there are more inaccurate ways to describe it.
If this was Baker vs Watson, it is clearly Watson. But that is not the case.
It is a Baker vs:
Watson, and $20 million higher cap hit and The players we need to cut/not sign because of that cap hit and 3 1st round picks and Perhaps some other picks and Perhaps a couple young talented established players and The potential games missed because of suspension and The PR hit
Often times women are afraid to come out against men of wealth and power because of the very thing we see on this board. They are dismissed, accused of lying, in general under attack and things are spun to the point of making predator look like the victim. Just read the threads.
If this was Baker vs Watson, it is clearly Watson. But that is not the case.
It is a Baker vs:
Watson, and $20 million higher cap hit and The players we need to cut/not sign because of that cap hit and 3 1st round picks and Perhaps some other picks and Perhaps a couple young talented established players and The potential games missed because of suspension and The PR hit
can you guys explain to me why you're worried about the cap hit? i get everything else, but this is a guy who is already signed for 4 years. if we had to sign baker, he'd cost a lot more than Watson. just doesnt make any sense. any QB worth the contract is gonna cost at least that.
Watson, and $20 million higher cap hit and The players we need to cut/not sign because of that cap hit and 3 1st round picks and Perhaps some other picks and Perhaps a couple young talented established players and t
Jack Duffin @JackDuffin Replying to @perrydawg57 You can get Watson down to $9.875m for 2022 so would be okay
can you guys explain to me why you're worried about the cap hit? i get everything else, but this is a guy who is already signed for 4 years. if we had to sign baker, he'd cost a lot more than Watson. just doesnt make any sense. any QB worth the contract is gonna cost at least that.
I don't think it is the $$$$ he is concerned about - that line you are looking at is directly tied to the next line which is what players need to be cut to make room for Watson. Without making the assumption you can restructure the contract - it's a fair consideration.
Let me be clear. A fully focused and healthy DeShaun Watson is huge upgrade compared to Mayfield. A top 5 QB probably talented enough to take any decent team to a SB. I’m 100% sure he will make our offense much much better then we saw last season, probably on par with the Bills and close to the Chiefs if we can give him two good WR. But If it only where that simple.
It’s one thing to give away a couple of random draft picks but two maybe three first and second round picks in consecutive means we have no chance to refill our roster with young upcoming talent and that will sooner or later cost us. Trade Baker is one thing but together with two maybe three other quality players we lose a lose a lot of talent. That together with our cap space can make this deal costly.
Secondly maybe Mayfield isn’t a top ten QB but he’s not alone. There are huge question marks regarding Kevin Stefanski. His award in first season means nada. There is nothing so far that indicates that he’s a elite play caller and HC. We can argue to death with each other but the results doesn’t lie. If Baker isn’t elite then the same must said about Ski. If we don’t have excuses for Bakers injury then the same applies to Stefanski.
Then we have the 22 lawsuits. 22 women. 22 independent story’s about potential sexual misbehavior. Legally guilty or not in todays liberal climate it’s not a good sign and any new case or wrong doing will probably end his career in a heart beat. It’s huge risk to invest a couple of years of this organizations future with knowing you’re potentially dealing with dynamite.
Morally I don’t like what Andrew Berry is doing.He don’t seems honest and straight forward when dealing with players. One mistake is nothing but maybe we’re starting to see seeing a pattern with his dealing with OBJ, Landry and Baker.
This will work out bad for whoever signs him IMHO. The civil courts and NFL will have their way with him at some point. With so many accusers, I don't see how he won't catch a suspension at minimum. Unless there is some kind of proof he was 100% innocent across the board on these allegations, he will be suspended. And I'm getting strong DIVA vibes from this DW lottery.
we dont know yet. have you seen all these teams around the league magically make the money work? so i dont know why we couldnt do the same. the cap seems to be the most harped on thing here, thats why i responded to that first.
also, the picks in exchange for a top 5 QB is something any team that needs a QB would give up if given the opportunity, which is why there were multiple teams trying to trade for him. there's very few guys who are untouchable on our roster when it comes to trades. i could see Berry sacrificing some defensive talent, for example.
The lawyer has a rep. If you're saying the way he went about this makes his case immune to people looking to score a payday from an athlete, then you're being willfully ignorant. Also, same lawyer initially wanted to settle it all quietly. This is nowhere near the 'good vs evil' situation that you're trying to portray. Far more reasonable to wait for more (real) information.
look at the AFC, specifically the West. even with our talent as is, Baker puts us at a disadvantage. Watson has shown he can elevate the players around him. Baker really hasn't. at the end, we need a QB we can trust, especially in the 4th. i just dont have any confidence its baker. and because of that, there's not a team we could put around baker that will take us to the top, because baker hasn't shown he can carry a team.
look at the AFC, specifically the West. even with our talent as is, Baker puts us at a disadvantage. Watson has shown he can elevate the players around him. Baker really hasn't. at the end, we need a QB we can trust, especially in the 4th. i just dont have any confidence its baker. and because of that, there's not a team we could put around baker that will take us to the top, because baker hasn't shown he can carry a team.
I disagree - I think Baker in his rookie year elevated below average WRs who are either out of the NFL or on the cusp of no longer being in the NFL. I think in 2020 - the last 9 games of the year, Baker was excellent and ran KS offense to a high level of execution. But that's me and what I see. I choose to disregard the crapola we saw under Kitchens and in early 2020 facotrs I consider are there was [1] a lot of change with scheme, mechanics [2] 3 really really bad weather games. Again - jmo
This is sickening. This didn't start out as 22 women with a lawyer. Why in the hell can't you figure out that criminal courts do not prosecute he said. she said cases because there's no way to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? That has nothing to do with guilt or innocence.
Your response is sickening and degrading to women.
Your tendency to always think the worst of people can be sickening.
If he's the monster you make him out to be, why were there only "he said, she said" cases and no actual evidence if this was so widespread and egregious?
Something doesn't add up.
This happened to more than 22 women and not a single one filed a police report at the time or has any evidence?
The fact that people believe that without question seems more degrading to women than considering the possibility that someone's being loose with the truth.
Yes, I understand that there are reasons a woman wouldn't report an assault to the police, and I feel awful that such things can and do happen.
For me, though, the size of the story without any evidence works against it. 22 women and over a year and you couldn't gather enough corroborating evidence to even go to trial? It's a huge story, all the major networks and newspapers are digging into it, law enforcement as well, and nothing legally incriminating comes to light?
It angers and sickens me that people that have been victims of sexual assault see what's happening and see that as evidence that they wouldn't be believed, either.
Putting "victims" in the same room with the person that "victimized" them (if you believe that version of events) sounded like an especially bad idea.
[1] I absolutely doubt 100% that anyone from the Browns or represents the Browns has spoken to any (alleged) victim. [2] You can't be that dense to think the suggestion was to put them in the same room. Virtual or otherwise.
At the end of the day it only matters what he does on the field, everybody will forget about anything else.
Big Ben raped people. Ray Lewis murdered someone.
Not that I'm okay with any of it, just stating the facts. Nobody cares as long as he produces on the football field. It will be overlooked.
Nope. You and obviously others will do that.
I never ever heard Ben's name without thinking of him as a rapist. I never heard Lewis's name without thinking of him as probably having killed someone. If the Browns end up with Watson everything he does as a Brown will forever be marked with an Asterix in my mind. Tarnished and mean less. There's probably others that might feel that way too..
Yeah, him publicly badmouthing the FO and refusing to play had nothing to do with why he's available.
You don't pay someone over 10 mil. who refuses to play. This isn't hard to figure out.
You agreed that the accusations were the only reason Deshaun Watson is available (which is what I responded to). It's not, no matter how you decide to pick another argument out of what I posted. LWL the goal post mover, lol. Anyhow, per PFT in Feb of 21, Watson did refuse to play for the texans.
Putting "victims" in the same room with the person that "victimized" them (if you believe that version of events) sounded like an especially bad idea.
[1] I absolutely doubt 100% that anyone from the Browns or represents the Browns has spoken to any (alleged) victim. [2] You can't be that dense to think the suggestion was to put them in the same room. Virtual or otherwise.
Ho hum
1. Perhaps not directly, but I'm sure they've gotten a hold of the accusers' claims and associated info somehow. I'm confident that the Browns have done a ton of homework on the situation.
2. The literal interpretation of the tweet sounded like a bad idea. That's why I didn't interpret it that way.
I remember why I don't spend as much time on this board as I used to. People can't get past there own opinions long enough to try to understand what other people are trying to say. That or people expect to be understood without actually spelling things out.
At the end of the day it only matters what he does on the field, everybody will forget about anything else.
Big Ben raped people. Ray Lewis murdered someone.
Not that I'm okay with any of it, just stating the facts. Nobody cares as long as he produces on the football field. It will be overlooked.
If some of.you.only.knew how many of.your beloved Browns Alumni got away with crimes in the past.
I can start giving you guys a list
Eddie.Johnson scammed homeowners out thousands Of dollars of remodeling work never done
Barkevious Mingo groomed a teen boy from North Akron
Art Modell paid a kings ransom to keep Tom Couiseneau From going to jail after a being caught in Fairview Park With a underage teen
We all.know Reggie Ruckers recent issues with theft
I knew of a Browns.FB that would go.to.bars in Kent In.the late 80s.promise young women this.that Go to a motel and take them and take advantage of them
Point being NFL players are like any other humans on earth There is good, bad, wholesome, evil tall, short, quiet, talkative And on Sundays, no one supporting that teams players could care Less what they done off the field. Only what they do on the field
If the Browns and the fans don't care about Watson being a sexual predator and are willing to give up a ton of 1st round picks to get him then they should put a clause in his new contract stating the team will NEVER suspend him for ANY reason due to off-field behavior. He can assault as many women as he likes and the team will do NOTHING. If that is the way they want to play the game then when something happens they can just shut up. The ONLY thing that matters is ON-FIELD performance and what a player does in his off time is of NO interest to the team or fans. Personally, the minute Watson is signed as a Brown I become an EX Browns fan. I have been a Browns fan since 1967 when I was five years old. 55 years I have watched every game that was televised. That comes to an abrupt end if they sign this... *expletive deleted"
Lmao. What the f does that mean. You will have to explain. It sounds a lot like "she was asking for it wearing that outfit"....
I get a massage every 3 weeks. None of the massage therapists I've ever seen would do anything inappropriate for me or any athlete or film star or whatever. I've never had 22 different therapists. You find one you like and you stick with them.
The dilemma is whether you are willing to look past that or not. As I have said before, I am super conflicted. I think I am at the point where I hope he picks someone else so I don’t have to do the mental gymnastics.
You mean like after Watson turns down the Browns' leadership group, they all pile into Haslam's jet and fly to visit Baker and Emily, and they all go on a nice picnic?
Crfs... He's a creep yes, probably beyond a creep. Not a rapist but a serial exploiter/manipulator.
The article posted by Jester (I think) was probably the most rationale take on the implications of the organization going hard for DW. At this point it maybe doesn't matter the outcome, the organization showed us their asses and a little of their values. As a fan that thinks character matters that hurts. And it *feels* like if we don't get DW we might be royally screwed at QB this year. It's deflating.
Whatever happen this is already a clusterfck with a bitter taste on the whole situation.
If the Browns FO believes that all 22 women is lying then I will never again in my whole life give my support to Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski. Their moral compass is lost.
We have four daughters and two grandchildren in our family. My girls would think I have lost it if I turned my blind eye and pretended everything is ok. No more money to our owners from my pocket. Sorry but it’s to much.
I read something about some of them having verbiage on their profiles that were understood "code" for "other services available". That's all well in good if it led to something consensual. It may be possible that some of them jumped on the bandwagon when the attorney started making calls...
But not 22 of them. Sorry. What, they all got together on zoom and got their stories to line up first? B.S.
There are accounts of some of them being in shock, in fear, and just blown away that someone of his "stature" would try to force himself on them. There are probably a few others that told him to get dressed and gtfo... and just moved on... not wanting to get involved with any lawsuit.
He'll pay out a few million and move on. But it doesn't take a genius to understand that he has a compulsive addiction.
Even a masseuse that defended him later had some texts published between her and a friend. She said she quit treating him because of "word on the street"... and even said that she tried to warn him...
Yet he continued.
That in and of itself shows that he thought he was "above the law". So, you're intersecting sick, despicable acts with a personality that says "I'm Deshaun #$%#& Watson, I'll do as I please".
Don't want that on my team, I feel dirty even thinking about cheering for that. I have a hard time even believing "my" coach and GM are talking to him. Damaging the team regardless of the outcome.
And the track record of high-profile athletes/stars that get their "slap on the wrist"? Well, I don't need to spell it all out, but more than a few have led to acts that are far worse.
I wonder, if while talking to Watson, if Berry and company will try to dig into what might have happened and try to get a feel for it. If they get creeper out will they back off? Is this just due diligence?
I wonder, if while talking to Watson, if Berry and company will try to dig into what might have happened and try to get a feel for it. If they get creeper out will they back off? Is this just due diligence?
If they don’t do that then they are not doing their job.
This is correct. Like it or not, a lot of people in the NFL are scumbags and not role models, which includes the coaches.
Watson IS a tremendous talent and I'd love to have him but I don't know, depending on how bad his character is will he quit on the team? Will he be able to deal with things if they get tough?
I don't know if he has the same determination as Mayfield. Does he?
If the Browns and the fans don't care about Watson being a sexual predator and are willing to give up a ton of 1st round picks to get him then they should put a clause in his new contract stating the team will NEVER suspend him for ANY reason due to off-field behavior. He can assault as many women as he likes and the team will do NOTHING. If that is the way they want to play the game then when something happens they can just shut up. The ONLY thing that matters is ON-FIELD performance and what a player does in his off time is of NO interest to the team or fans. Personally, the minute Watson is signed as a Brown I become an EX Browns fan. I have been a Browns fan since 1967 when I was five years old. 55 years I have watched every game that was televised. That comes to an abrupt end if they sign this... *expletive deleted"
He has not been proven guilty of anything yet!!! Should he not first be found guilty before we all jump to conclusions?
If the Browns and the fans don't care about Watson being a sexual predator and are willing to give up a ton of 1st round picks to get him then they should put a clause in his new contract stating the team will NEVER suspend him for ANY reason due to off-field behavior. He can assault as many women as he likes and the team will do NOTHING. If that is the way they want to play the game then when something happens they can just shut up. The ONLY thing that matters is ON-FIELD performance and what a player does in his off time is of NO interest to the team or fans. Personally, the minute Watson is signed as a Brown I become an EX Browns fan. I have been a Browns fan since 1967 when I was five years old. 55 years I have watched every game that was televised. That comes to an abrupt end if they sign this... *expletive deleted"
He has not been proven guilty of anything yet!!! Should he not first be found guilty before we all jump to conclusions?
If the Browns and the fans don't care about Watson being a sexual predator and are willing to give up a ton of 1st round picks to get him then they should put a clause in his new contract stating the team will NEVER suspend him for ANY reason due to off-field behavior. He can assault as many women as he likes and the team will do NOTHING. If that is the way they want to play the game then when something happens they can just shut up. The ONLY thing that matters is ON-FIELD performance and what a player does in his off time is of NO interest to the team or fans. Personally, the minute Watson is signed as a Brown I become an EX Browns fan. I have been a Browns fan since 1967 when I was five years old. 55 years I have watched every game that was televised. That comes to an abrupt end if they sign this... *expletive deleted"
He has not been proven guilty of anything yet!!! Should he not first be found guilty before we all jump to conclusions?
22 accusers sorry they can't all be liars ...
I guess the Pharisees must have all been liars to? There was a mob of them. They all could not be wrong huh? The bottom line is as a citizen we are not tried in the court of public opinion but the court of law. He has not been found guilty of any crime as of now.
I feel like Watson will not stomach our toxic media and fanbase. He won't stay here long and then what.
Exactly. How long before he cashes a big check here and then asks for a trade out of town, or decides that he isn't going to play for us until we do another contract that pays him more?
If he comes here, he's bolting as soon as he can once he takes the field here and gets booed before playing a down.
He has not been proven guilty of anything yet!!! Should he not first be found guilty before we all jump to conclusions?
Not Guilty is not the same as Innocent. Not Guilty, or the decision to not pursue criminal charges, can very easily be as little as a prosecutor not feeling confident they have enough to get a conviction (or winning an all expenses paid vacation to Puerto Vallarta that he just can't pass on during the time he'd have to try the case).
In a case like this, it would be nice if we could get a look at what the grand jury was presented.
He has not been proven guilty of anything yet!!! Should he not first be found guilty before we all jump to conclusions?
Not Guilty is not the same as Innocent. Not Guilty, or the decision to not pursue criminal charges, can very easily be as little as a prosecutor not feeling confident they have enough to get a conviction (or winning an all expenses paid vacation to Puerto Vallarta that he just can't pass on during the time he'd have to try the case).
In a case like this, it would be nice if we could get a look at what the grand jury was presented.
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers. Until he is charged he is an innocent man!
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers. Until he is charged he is an innocent man!
How many examples you want that this isn't actually true?
But it is true. If you are not found guilty of a crime you are considered innocent. The law states you are innocent until found guilty by a jury of your peers. Was he found guilty by a jury of his peers? No! Thus he is considered innocent. In this case there was not enough evidence to convict. So he is still an innocent man at this time. That is not saying he did or did not commit the crimes. It is just saying until he is found guilty he should be seen as innocent. We are not convicted by public opinion. That is lunacy!!!
That ONLY applies in the eyes of the law, and note that a defendant is never proclaimed to be found innocent, they are proclaimed to be found not guilty.
In this country you are innocent until proven guilty by a jury of your peers. Until he is charged he is an innocent man!
How many examples you want that this isn't actually true?
But it is true. If you are not found guilty of a crime you are considered innocent. The law states you are innocent until found guilty by a jury of your peers. Was he found guilty by a jury of his peers? No! Thus he is considered innocent. In this case there was not enough evidence to convict. So he is still an innocent man at this time. That is not saying he did or did not commit the crimes. It is just saying until he is found guilty he should be seen as innocent. We are not convicted by public opinion. That is lunacy!!!
White Cops, Black Males, Donald Trump, etc. All examples where people have been considered guilty without a jury of their peers deciding so. The way it is supposed to work and the way it is doesn't always match up.
Along with the Browns meeting, Watson also has a key deposition in his civil lawsuit where he is expected to answer questions without invoking his fifth amendment right to not self-incriminate for the first time now that criminal charges won’t be filed.
The NFL pledged to stay out of the way of any criminal investigation, but with that process completed, the NFL can begin to work towards a decision about his suspension. What he says in coming depositions could certainly affect the NFL’s decision. Watson will meet with NFL investigators as a part of their inquiry.
According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo Sports, some teams believe Watson will presumably face a six-game suspension under the NFL’s personal conduct policy, which can be handed down to players in instances of alleged assault and does not require a legal verdict of guilt. The NFL can use their own discretion to add or subtract from that suspension pending the results of their investigation.
In 2010, the NFL suspended Ben Roethlisberger for six games following an accusation of sexual assault. Like Watson’s case, charges were not brought against Roethlisberger. His case involved one accusation, Watson’s currently involves 22.
Charlie Frye was a choirboy of a QB. Really good guy. Overdrafted , but a good guy overall. But when his tenure ended as a Brown QB, 99% of Browns fans were glad to see him.go. He simply was a bad QB. But nobody was applauding his character when he was cut. At the end of the day, it's all about, did you.perform well or not regarding athletes.
You don't applaud someone for doing what everyone should be doing already. In that vein, he managed to not make his time at QB worse by behaving like a dirtbag. That's part of doing the job.
Lmao. What the f does that mean. You will have to explain. It sounds a lot like "she was asking for it wearing that outfit"....
I get a massage every 3 weeks. None of the massage therapists I've ever seen would do anything inappropriate for me or any athlete or film star or whatever. I've never had 22 different therapists. You find one you like and you stick with them.
Just pick up a newspaper, or online and its easy to know the difference between masseurs, physiotherapists and "recreation" masseurs. I have serious doubts any high performance athlete would let anyone touch his body who is not a recognized trusted professional, let alone 22, but if its for recreational purposes, the more the merrier.
I actually once had the opposite happened to me, in a SPA, so maybe I'm biased against the profession. I also had physiotherapy sessions, but let me tell you that there was nothing sensual or sexual in the whole process
The guy clearly has an addiction, but if he is a sex predator its strange that he only goes after masseurs. You don't get clear of 22 accusations if there is not a common theme.
So, hypothetically, what's the response from all you "Dump Mayfield at All Costs" if Watson is not the golden child savior and the team does not improve? Or that a Mayfield gets traded to say the Colts and he leads them deep into the playoffs while the Browns sit at home because let's say Watson gets a 10-12 game suspension? Or that maybe Watson doesn't perform as expected because the issue actually is the Stefanski scheme and play calling and not Mayfield or Watson?
If you lump all your eggs in one basket with as many questions as there are surrounding this move, you're not a very smart GM. Not to mention the fact that if the trade doesn't go through, Berry has destroyed any type of relationship he will have with Mayfield going forward. The trust level between player and FO and coach just went down the drain with the other sewer water.
I get it, they think Watson is an upgrade but they don't have a deal yet they have severed any type of working relationship going forward with Mayfield if the trade that was never a certainty doesn't go through. I hope the Watson deal goes through now otherwise the Browns will be in rebuilding mode again.
I am not in favor of Watson coming here. Not that it mattters, I know. Cost to get him would be too high, imo. He has baggage, no doubt. But regardless of that, how many players need to be cut or contracts restructured to get him?
Damage has been done concerning Mayfield. Based on the trade talks about him, based on going to talk with Watson, etc.
The Browns just screwed up, in my opinion......and possibly some/much of it based on last year, with an injured qb.
Watson will probably see.......6 game suspension? Who knows. We're in a bad spot right now. Get him, and watch him sit out due to suspension. Don't get him, and watch Baker. Other cuts........and to think. Eh, I don't want to think. I see nothing good coming out of any of this short term, and probably not long term.
I'm not sure Rusty Hardin was Haslam's attorney throughout the ordeal, but Hardin was Pilot Flying J's then President, Mark Hazelwood's attorney (obviously Pilot Flying J likely took care of the legal fees).
If Cleveland Browns QB Baker Mayfield is traded before the 2022 NFL season, where will he land? PFN Insider Tony Pauline has new information around the situation. By Matthew Cannata March 15, 2022 If the Cleveland Browns trade Baker Mayfield, where will he land? With rumors of Mayfield and the Browns potentially parting ways, PFN Insider Tony Pauline has heard from sources close to the situation that Mayfield has a preferred destination, and it happens to be in the AFC South. On the premiere episode of PFN Draft Insiders (which can be found every Tuesday at 8 PM ET on the PFN YouTube Channel), PFN Chief NFL Analyst Trey Wingo asked Pauline about the latest he was hearing around the Browns.
Pauline reported that he was told Browns’ general manager Andrew Berry has promised to work with Mayfield’s team and send him to a place of his choosing – if at all possible. If Mayfield had his choice, that place would be Indianapolis to play for the Colts, another team on the cusp of getting into the playoffs.
The Browns are currently courting Deshaun Watson and finished their meeting with Watson in Houston on Tuesday afternoon, according to sources who spoke to PFN Insider Aaron Wilson. Pauline reported that he was told that Browns’ owner Jimmy Haslam has been the driving force in the Browns’ attempt to bring Watson to Cleveland as he believes the soon-to-be-former Houston Texan is the missing piece of the Super Bowl puzzle.
The selling point for Watson to come to Cleveland? Unlike other teams presently courting Watson (Carolina, New Orleans, Atlanta) the Browns are the closest to not only making the playoffs but also going deep into the playoffs.
Watson will ultimately decide his fate as he holds a no-trade clause and will have the final say where he ends up. Mayfield will also have the final say after this season as sources told Pauline that even if he’s playing for the Browns this season, they don’t see a long-term future for him in Cleveland. Why Mayfield being traded to the Colts could make sense
There are actually quite a few reasons why a Mayfield to Indianapolis connection could make sense. Mayfield was drafted first overall in the 2018 NFL Draft. At the time, the general manager for the Browns was Chris Ballard’s former mentor John Dorsey. Dorsey and Ballard had previously worked together in the football operations department for the Kansas City Chiefs.
Could Ballard and Dorsey both have similar views on what it takes to be a successful quarterback in the NFL? If so, this could help explain why Ballard is reportedly showing an interest in a player drafted by Dorsey first overall.
In addition to the Ballard and Dorsey connection, finances could also play a role in why Mayfield makes sense. The Colts are currently without a QB1 after trading away Carson Wentz; however, they do have a significant amount of cap space. Mayfield has an $18.9 million cap hit in 2022, a number that is low considering how much starting QBs make these days. The Colts currently have a projected available team salary cap space of $62.5 million.
Realistically, Mayfield might be one of the cheapest options available right now. Were his numbers last season underwhelming? absolutely. He completed just 253 of 418 attempts for 3,010 passing yards, 17 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions. However, it is important to note that he suffered a number of injuries.
Charlie Frye was a choirboy of a QB. Really good guy. Overdrafted , but a good guy overall. But when his tenure ended as a Brown QB, 99% of Browns fans were glad to see him.go. He simply was a bad QB. But nobody was applauding his character when he was cut. At the end of the day, it's all about, did you.perform well or not regarding athletes.
DON'T TRY TO JUSTIFY HIS CRAP. I'll put up with him if the Browns bring him in, BUT I will never be a fan if even a smidgen of these allegations are true, he's a creep. I haven't heard anyone say he's innocent. I don't want him, but if he's forced upon us by Berry and company, I don't want anyone trying to 'lessen' his transgressions with BS rhetoric. I will never say that's "My QB" for him like I do Baker. He's the guy holding the spot if he comes, that is all. And he's obviously a DIVA, so I agree with Eve, the second things go south, he'll get run out on a rail.
Hey, Baker is in no position right now. He will go to whoever gives us the best deal!. Football is a cold business, that is why some players will not play hurt because they know their performance is being judged when they are on the field!!.. Nothing person, just business!!.. I'm more upset at not resigning Tretter. Top centers do not just grow on trees!
“I don’t know what the [expletive] has been going on here, and I don’t know why it’s been going on here. But if you’re not hurt, like if your hamstring ain’t falling off the [expletive] bone, your leg ain’t broke, you should be [expletive] practicing. Like straight up. Like that [expletive] is weakness, and that [expletive] is contagious as [expletive]. And that [expletive] ain’t going to be in this room, bruh. That [expletive] has been here in the past, and that’s why the past has been like it is, bruh. And this [expletive] is over with, bruh. If you can [expletive] practice, [expletive] practice.
You can’t get no better — ain’t nobody going to get better by being on the [expletive] sideline if you ain’t [expletive] hurt. If you’re not [expletive] hurt, you’ve got to [expletive] practice, because you make other [expletive] work even [expletive] harder. Now they’re at more risk of getting [expletive] hurt because you don’t want to [expletive] practice, because you’re being a [expletive]. Straight up that [expletive] is [expletive] real. That [expletive] ain’t happening here…
I’m hurt and I’m tired just like every [expletive] body in this [expletive] but I ain’t taken no [expletive] days off because I can’t be [expletive] great that way. That’s got to be the [expletive] attitude and the mentality all the [expletive] time. All that weak [expletive] don’t [expletive] live here no more. That [expletive] don’t exist. It’s contagious, bruh.”
Landry got credit for changing the culture in Cleveland. Now Juice is gone and Baker, who looks to have bought in, looks to be on his way out too. Juice may have changed the culture but it looks like the Browns are going to change it right back.
“I don’t know what the [expletive] has been going on here, and I don’t know why it’s been going on here. But if you’re not hurt, like if your hamstring ain’t falling off the [expletive] bone, your leg ain’t broke, you should be [expletive] practicing. Like straight up. Like that [expletive] is weakness, and that [expletive] is contagious as [expletive]. And that [expletive] ain’t going to be in this room, bruh. That [expletive] has been here in the past, and that’s why the past has been like it is, bruh. And this [expletive] is over with, bruh. If you can [expletive] practice, [expletive] practice.
You can’t get no better — ain’t nobody going to get better by being on the [expletive] sideline if you ain’t [expletive] hurt. If you’re not [expletive] hurt, you’ve got to [expletive] practice, because you make other [expletive] work even [expletive] harder. Now they’re at more risk of getting [expletive] hurt because you don’t want to [expletive] practice, because you’re being a [expletive]. Straight up that [expletive] is [expletive] real. That [expletive] ain’t happening here…
I’m hurt and I’m tired just like every [expletive] body in this [expletive] but I ain’t taken no [expletive] days off because I can’t be [expletive] great that way. That’s got to be the [expletive] attitude and the mentality all the [expletive] time. All that weak [expletive] don’t [expletive] live here no more. That [expletive] don’t exist. It’s contagious, bruh.”
Landry got credit for changing the culture in Cleveland. Now Juice is gone and Baker, who looks to have bought in, looks to be on his way out too. Juice may have changed the culture but it looks like the Browns are going to change it right back.
Landry got credit for changing the culture in Cleveland. Now Juice is gone and Baker, who looks to have bought in, looks to be on his way out too. Juice may have changed the culture but it looks like the Browns are going to change it right back.
My ideal scenario at this point is for Watson to be traded to the Falcons. They turn around and trade Matt Ryan to us. We then trade Baker to the Seahawks We draft our star qb of the future in next year's draft which looks like it is going to very talented and very deep
My ideal scenario at this point is for Watson to be traded to the Falcons. They turn around and trade Matt Ryan to us. We then trade Baker to the Seahawks We draft our star qb of the future in next year's draft which looks like it is going to very talented and very deep
I think you may be on to something here. While I think DeShaun Watson is a clear upgrade from Baker. I just don't believe the IVY League guys would part with 3 draft picks for him. Knowing he could possibly be suspended. I could see a 3 team trade though. Something like.
Atlanta gets DeShaun Watson from Houston and Austin Hooper from Cleveland
Cleveland gets Matt Ryan from Atlanta
Houston gets Baker Mayfield from Cleveland, 3 first round draft picks, a 2nd round pick, and WR Calvin Ridley from Atlanta.
The Browns then sign Allen Robinson with money freed up from Matt Ryan reworked contract and cutting loss Hooper.
Over what we saw last year Matt Ryan is an enormous upgrade.
With the Falcons’ cap situation I don’t see Watson going there at this point. They’d have to gut their roster just to get Watson on their roster.
Last year Baker was hurt the entire year... I'd rather have a health Baker than Matt Ryan... Matt Ryan is a good QB but how many years does he have left?? If we would do that plan we'd for sure need to draft his replacement next year...
My ideal scenario at this point is for Watson to be traded to the Falcons. They turn around and trade Matt Ryan to us. We then trade Baker to the Seahawks We draft our star qb of the future in next year's draft which looks like it is going to very talented and very deep
I think you may be on to something here. While I think DeShaun Watson is a clear upgrade from Baker. I just don't believe the IVY League guys would part with 3 draft picks for him. Knowing he could possibly be suspended. I could see a 3 team trade though. Something like.
Atlanta gets DeShaun Watson from Houston and Austin Hooper from Cleveland
Cleveland gets Matt Ryan from Atlanta
Houston gets Baker Mayfield from Cleveland, 3 first round draft picks, a 2nd round pick, and WR Calvin Ridley from Atlanta.
The Browns then sign Allen Robinson with money freed up from Matt Ryan reworked contract and cutting loss Hooper.
For me MAat Ryan is a bridge Qb that can win some games and bring stability to the organization for 1-2 years. We draft our future Qb in next year's draft Don't thin k we would get Stroud or the 'bama Qb but I really like Ramsey out of Miss St.
Jay - I would agree but at this point I don't see any situation in which Baker is on the Browns next season
SBD - I have no interest in Jordan Love. Nothing suggests he could be a franchise Qb so we would just be wallowing again for years.
Don't disagree with you... truly feels that Baker's time here is done, which is sad... I have zero issue with us pursuing Watson because he's a clear upgrade... when Watson, likely, doesn't work out, I would hope we could salvage the relationship with baker.... but not sure that's realistic...
Some of you “anything but Baker” don’t seems to get it.
Players come and go and despite I really liked Landry and Mayfield I have no problem with moving on and to embrace new players. What I don’t like is that my team, the Cleveland Browns that I love seems to have owners and a FO with a questionable moral compass. I’m all in about giving everyone a second chance and everybody is innocent until proven guilty and all that but 22 women is to much.
I have four daughters and I know how it feels when one of them coming home and is crying after being abused or even worse by a “nice guy”.
Sadly for me this incident just tells me that Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski isn’t my guys and I don’t want them to represent my team. 22 women. Don’t need more words.
The standard for DW and the FO is AFC championship game or bust for intentionally throwing a grenade in the clubhouse. When this fails epically I expect paul kevin and andrew to be let go, cooper will be released and tge new regime wont pay $40 million on DW.
And we all know if DW come to Cleveland, Rodger will hand out a 10 game suspension before ink is dry.
You mean like after Watson turns down the Browns' leadership group, they all pile into Haslam's jet and fly to visit Baker and Emily, and they all go on a nice picnic?
LOL...I don't think that is happening.
I think something happened with the team and Baker. It started brewing during the season, but things seemed to take a U-turn in the last month or so. I think Baker also expressed to the Browns his unhappiness and it became clear that Baker was going to be a problem to get signed again. I think a meeting between Berry and Bakers agent at the combine wasn't good no matter how you look at it, but it seems that was the point things really started to heat up about the team looking at QB options.
I don't think the Browns want to have a lame duck QB this season because Baker told them the only way he plays in Cleveland after this season would be if he was tagged.
I don't think anybody is to blame, it's just a unfortunate situation.
The Steelers needed a quarterback. The Rooney family stated we will not pursue Deshaun Watson.
Jimmy Haslam with a recuperating quarterback who was told "you are our starter."
Jimmy says ok Berry jump on the plane with me. We will make an offer.
Make no mistake this is Haslam's deal.
Looking forward to a great football season.
I have noticed you are pretty quick to blame owners. Freddie leaves Atlanta because they didn't want to pay. Haslam did this or that.
I think Freddie got greedy and Baker told the FO he didn't want to play here any longer. The reality is there is probably plenty of dirt on everybody's hands. Sometimes everybody has a strong point but they happen to be in opposition.
I noticed on the internet that the same fans bashing baker last season and defending stefanski playcalling our now bashing stefanski playcalling just in case watson comes here and severely underperforms as I expect he will. Even our overrated glorified prevent defense was able to keep him in check two seasons ago.
The lawyer has a rep. If you're saying the way he went about this makes his case immune to people looking to score a payday from an athlete, then you're being willfully ignorant. Also, same lawyer initially wanted to settle it all quietly. This is nowhere near the 'good vs evil' situation that you're trying to portray. Far more reasonable to wait for more (real) information.
Yep. 22 liars on one side and the only truth teller is on the other side. You do realize that a lawyer tells their clients all of the options they have to move forward including settlement offers. right? That's a far cry from the lawyer wanting to settle it.
You do realize that many women who have been sexually abused do not want the public shunning, like your judgemental post being spread all over the country, right?
If you're saying the way he went about this makes his case immune to people looking to score a payday from an athlete, then you're being willfully ignorant.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Yep. 22 liars on one side and the only truth teller is on the other side.
Willfully ignorant, then. You do you. I'll do my best to cling to my sanity as best as possible until actual info comes out, and until then point your virtue signaling in another direction.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
.... like your judgemental post ....
You are seriously the LAST person (in this thread and many others) that can talk about being judgmental.
Your tendency to always think the worst of people can be sickening.
Then maybe you should stop trying to make a case for the assailant.
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If he's the monster you make him out to be, why were there only "he said, she said" cases and no actual evidence if this was so widespread and egregious?
How many people are in a room when a message is given? This is ridiculous.
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Something doesn't add up.
You're right. People who think eye witnesses would be in a room while a massage is being given doesn't add up.
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This happened to more than 22 women and not a single one filed a police report at the time or has any evidence?
When two people are alone in a room, what evidence would she have?
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The fact that people believe that without question seems more degrading to women than considering the possibility that someone's being loose with the truth.
When there's 22 of them? I don't think so.
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Yes, I understand that there are reasons a woman wouldn't report an assault to the police, and I feel awful that such things can and do happen.
For me, though, the size of the story without any evidence works against it. 22 women and over a year and you couldn't gather enough corroborating evidence to even go to trial? It's a huge story, all the major networks and newspapers are digging into it, law enforcement as well, and nothing legally incriminating comes to light?
This has been explained to you many times. If you lack the ability to understand it or whether you refuse to accept it, either way that's on you.
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It angers and sickens me that people that have been victims of sexual assault see what's happening and see that as evidence that they wouldn't be believed, either.
So you are saying that actual victims are angered because people don't believe Deshawns accusers? Because that's the reaction I've gotten. 22 women speak out and only one man, the perp is being believed.
You keep talking about eyewitnesses. I'm talking about physical evidence: Signs of bruising, texts, a journal entry, records of therapist appointments. 22 alleged instances and there's nothing but words.
I don't doubt that something tawdry happened. But I don't see any actual evidence to indicate that it reached the level of a crime. He's a pervy dude with some disturbing kinks that may have caused previously willing women to change their minds. But there's no evidence that he forced anything after they let him know they weren't into it. He paid them and they left by all accounts I've heard. Maybe he's guilty of solicitation.
I like Baker and wanted to draft him when we did. That said, I wouldn't have extended him after last season or sometime during this season.
Tell me, would you offer him a 30-40 mil a year contract right now? IMO that would be a bonehead move.
Nobody had to offer him a contract "right now". When healthy Baker led us to the playoffs and a playoff win. With a bum shoulder he performed about like sensible people would or should have expected. This was the year we would have found out if a continuation or improvement of 2020 with a healthy Baker was what we would see or not. He was already under contract for this season.
I don’t think Baker would want to be Brady’s backup.
Exactly right, but he wouldn't really have much of a choice. And getting paid $18 sitting a year under Brady wouldn't be a bad thing.
Why would the Bucs pay $18 million for a backup who can walk after the season?
Extend him a year to reduce cap hit year 1. If Brady stays another year, make the decision then. Otherwise you have a QB you like on your roster and can extend him longer term.
It was an idea and one that you don't see happening. Maybe not, but if Arians liked the guy and wants the guy, he could make it happen
I'm not the morality police, but I'm also not morally bankrupt. We'll get to watch this all play out. Hopefully not with Watson wearing the orange and Brown. Watson tried to settle with all these women to keep the details quiet so of course he did nothing wrong.
You keep talking about eyewitnesses. I'm talking about physical evidence: Signs of bruising, texts, a journal entry, records of therapist appointments. 22 alleged instances and there's nothing but words.
I don't doubt that something tawdry happened. But I don't see any actual evidence to indicate that it reached the level of a crime. He's a pervy dude with some disturbing kinks that may have caused previously willing women to change their minds. But there's no evidence that he forced anything after they let him know they weren't into it. He paid them and they left by all accounts I've heard. Maybe he's guilty of solicitation.
Ick, but I'm not the morality police.
I'll try to be polite.... But your post seems to imply the ONLY way sexual impropriety or sexual exploitation occurred was if [1] There was physical harm done to the victims [2] If Watson exposed himself - or made them touch his erection without their consent, and they firmly/politely/declined - but didn't report him out of fear, him being a famous A list athlete and all - then that's okay too and the victim carries the blame for not getting the police involved. [3] Without doubt there are texts and appointments. What is it that they prove? Are you suggesting that these women never even met Watson and never gave him a massage?
Harvey Weinstein was never accused of physically forcing women to act against their will - Harvey Weinstein used his position of power and influence. In his case he was dealing with people who either worked for him or whose career's he held in his hands ... That was enough for a court of law. And while no criminal proceedings have been initiated against Watson, the same power/influence/coercion ethics would apply to Watson and be morally wrong.
1. You didn't ask any questions (other than the ones where you were putting words into my mouth).
2. When the message is not-subtle virtue signaling, and attacking anyone with even a slightly different opinion than you (while doing your usual twisting of what I'm saying to try to make your argument sound better)... well then yes. I am attacking the messenger. Guilty as charged.
3. If you read my posts, you'd know I'm not in any 'Deshawn (sic) Watson fan club'. And along those lines, you sound like the people you make fun of on here.
4. I look forward to seeing said evidence. Again, if you had read, you'd know that that WILL mean something to me (for Pete's sake, if I've said anything in these threads, it's that I'm waiting for the info/evidence).
As of now you seem to indicate that 22-1 means nothing to you. You actually made it sound like some seedy lawyer head hunted people to form a lawsuit. Seems to me like you are no less guilty of trying to frame a scenario here than anyone else.
You are right. It was Bulldawg you framed the crazy scenario to paint the victims as the possible wrongdoers that provided shade for the predator....
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There can be female "predators," too.
A shady lawyer could round up 22 women to claim that you are a sexual predator. Does that make you one?
Something being on social media or in the "news" doesn't make it true.
I'm guessing reality is probably somewhere in the middle. Watson probably did something borderline. Some of the massage therapists probably tried to get Watson to cross the line. Some of them are probably just in it for the money. Some may even feel they were legitimately "assaulted."
I haven't seen any evidence of the last one. Apparently neither did the legal system.
Having sex with a woman and then having her feel scorned later isn't a crime, though.
Getting a sports massage is kind of a weird situation. Someone's being paid to put their hands on someone else's groin. Physiological responses happen.
The legal system didn't find anything criminal. I've seen no evidence of forcible contact.
Our society is in a weird place where sex is both celebrated and castigated.
We should probably just go ahead and legalize prostitution. Regulate it. Let people be straightforward about what they are looking for. Be safe about it.
Not my thing, but there's a reason it's considered the world's oldest profession. Plus, Jesus liked to hang out with them.
When you compare a licensed message therapist to "the oldest profession" you're framing a scenario. When you cast shade on 22 victims, you're framing a scenario.
He, like many, think if there isn't enough evidence to convict in a criminal case there isn't any evidence.
I'm not sure how many times this needs to be explained, but I'll do it yet again.
In a criminal case you must prove guilt "beyond a reasonable doubt". In a civil suit you have to prove guilt " by the preponderance of the evidence". Meaning more likely guilty than not. Those are two very different thresholds. Prosecutors look for a very high conviction rate. Unless they feel a case is very solid, often times they don't pursue charges at all.
Enough with the "he's an innocent man and a wonderful human being and all of the women are lying" bullcrap. Just admit that you DON'T CARE what he did or what he does in the future. He could murder 100 women and you wouldn't care. ALL you care about is winning. Period. So why contort yourselves into knots trying to paint him as the victim? Just admit you don't care and be proud of your real stance. Sexual predators are welcome in Cleveland. Hell, we should rename the club to that. Cleveland Predators.
Watson tried to settle with all these women to keep the details quiet so of course he did nothing wrong.
So did Buzbee.
The global media story and court of public opinion have already convicted him. There's no way he gets an unbiased jury. Sadly, in the world we live in, settling to avoid potentially uncapped damages, even when innocent, is practical risk management.
Also can see how not wanting your sex life in the public eye could be a factor.
Watson tried to settle with all these women to keep the details quiet so of course he did nothing wrong.
So did Buzbee.
The global media story and court of public opinion have already convicted him. There's no way he gets an unbiased jury. Sadly, in the world we live in, settling to avoid potentially uncapped damages, even when innocent, is practical risk management.
Also can see how not wanting your sex life in the public eye could be a factor.
I don't see how he doesn't settle out of court at this point.
Enough with the "he's an innocent man and a wonderful human being and all of the women are lying" bullcrap. Just admit that you DON'T CARE what he did or what he does in the future. He could murder 100 women and you wouldn't care. ALL you care about is winning. Period. So why contort yourselves into knots trying to paint him as the victim? Just admit you don't care and be proud of your real stance. Sexual predators are welcome in Cleveland. Hell, we should rename the club to that. Cleveland Predators.
I guess it is OK to make a determination of guilt or innocence without all of the information. Rush to judgement. I sure hope if you are ever accused of something whether or not your guilty or not you get your day in court to plead your case. I don't think that is too much to ask.
The global media story and court of public opinion have already convicted him. There's no way he gets an unbiased jury. Sadly, in the world we live in, settling to avoid potentially uncapped damages, even when innocent, is practical risk management.
Gotcha. No worries. My head is spinning as well. I'm making a conscious decision (trying to, at least) to suspend judgement towards Watson coming to the Browns, the FO apparently trying to get him, etc.
Watson is a creep (and that's best case scenario given what we know). The unfortunate reality of the larger situation is that because of the specific way he can toss a football, the rules are going to be applied to him slightly differently (i.e. lots of dirtbags still pulling down massive paychecks all over the NFL). Watson could very well be in the category beyond your normal rank-and-file-NFL-dirtbag, but we don't know for sure. I need to know more information before I make this decision regarding my NFL fandom.
I guess it is OK to make a determination of guilt or innocence without all of the information. Rush to judgement. I sure hope if you are ever accused of something whether or not your guilty or not you get your day in court to plead your case. I don't think that is too much to ask.
Yeah, let me know how you feel when it's not 1 person, but 22 accusing you if vert similar things. Oh that's right, you already have.
I guess it is OK to make a determination of guilt or innocence without all of the information. Rush to judgement. I sure hope if you are ever accused of something whether or not your guilty or not you get your day in court to plead your case. I don't think that is too much to ask.
Yeah, let me know how you feel when it's not 1 person, but 22 accusing you if vert similar things. Oh that's right, you already have.
Ok, I gotcha. You do not believe in due process. Numbers is all that matters. Sad!
It's hard for me to believe Watson would choose anyone but the Falcons when he specifically reached out to them and has had a personal relationship with the Blank Family since he was a kid.
I can't say I totally blame you. Maybe it's because I actually know victims of sexual abuse who faced almost exactly the same circumstances. It's a familiar pattern that maybe some aren't so familiar with. Watching people trying to make the predator the good guy and the victim out to be a liar or of having poor character. Watching the victims and the pain they went through. Maybe it's because the first woman to come out was Ashley Solis who is a very reputable massage therapist with a very successful business and has zero character issues. Maybe it's watching people on here comparing actual licensed massage therapists with some "me love you long time" back alley people who hide their actual goals behind the disguise of giving massages that troubles me. Actually it's probably a combination of all that and then some.
You keep talking about eyewitnesses. I'm talking about physical evidence: Signs of bruising, texts, a journal entry, records of therapist appointments. 22 alleged instances and there's nothing but words.
I don't doubt that something tawdry happened. But I don't see any actual evidence to indicate that it reached the level of a crime. He's a pervy dude with some disturbing kinks that may have caused previously willing women to change their minds. But there's no evidence that he forced anything after they let him know they weren't into it. He paid them and they left by all accounts I've heard. Maybe he's guilty of solicitation.
Ick, but I'm not the morality police.
I'll try to be polite.... But your post seems to imply the ONLY way sexual impropriety or sexual exploitation occurred was if [1] There was physical harm done to the victims [2] If Watson exposed himself - or made them touch his erection without their consent, and they firmly/politely/declined - but didn't report him out of fear, him being a famous A list athlete and all - then that's okay too and the victim carries the blame for not getting the police involved. [3] Without doubt there are texts and appointments. What is it that they prove? Are you suggesting that these women never even met Watson and never gave him a massage?
Harvey Weinstein was never accused of physically forcing women to act against their will - Harvey Weinstein used his position of power and influence. In his case he was dealing with people who either worked for him or whose career's he held in his hands ... That was enough for a court of law. And while no criminal proceedings have been initiated against Watson, the same power/influence/coercion ethics would apply to Watson and be morally wrong.
No, I'm saying we don't know that there was criminal impropriety. Everyone seems to assume there was based on an evidence-less narrative.
I'm sorry I have trust issues and don't take things on belief. I admit other possibilities when I don't have evidence or the "facts" don't seem to add up.
Everybody jumping on him because of what they believe he did rubs me wrong. They don't know he did anything illegal. It's a charged subject they want to be on the right side of and they make assumptions.
Everybody believing the women because they are women bugs me. Everybody believing they know what happened because they read something online bugs me. People think they know more than they actually know, and it drives me crazy.
I look at all the angles, and admit I don't know. I still throw ideas out to try to make the pieces fit. That's the way my brain works.
Re pt 3, I'm talking about texts to friends near the alleged incidents implying that something criminal happened. I'm talking about appointments by the women to get treated for the alleged trauma by a mental health professional.
It just seems odd that there are so many women involved, but there is no evidence of those things happening.
Throw in the fact that Buzbee is not only a lawyer, but also a politician, and my trust issues are even more triggered.
I'm not believing the "women because they're women". I'm believing that at least some of them are telling the truth because there are 22 of them. The first accuser was Ashley Solis which is a very successful and reputable massage therapist that from everything I've seen gives me no cause to believe she would make this up.
No, I'm saying we don't know that there was criminal impropriety. Everyone seems to assume there was based on an evidence-less narrative.
I'm sorry I have trust issues and don't take things on belief. I admit other possibilities when I don't have evidence or the "facts" don't seem to add up.
Everybody jumping on him because of what they believe he did rubs me wrong. They don't know he did anything illegal. It's a charged subject they want to be on the right side of and they make assumptions.
Everybody believing the women because they are women bugs me. Everybody believing they know what happened because they read something online bugs me. People think they know more than they actually know, and it drives me crazy.
I look at all the angles, and admit I don't know. I still throw ideas out to try to make the pieces fit. That's the way my brain works.
Re pt 3, I'm talking about texts to friends near the alleged incidents implying that something criminal happened. I'm talking about appointments by the women to get treated for the alleged trauma by a mental health professional.
It just seems odd that there are so many women involved, but there is no evidence of those things happening.
Throw in the fact that Buzbee is not only a lawyer, but also a politician, and my trust issues are even more triggered.
There is not evidence-less narrative. We have the sworn testimony of 22 individuals.
You do take things "on belief" - because you continue to most definitely paint a narrative where 22 individuals are all lying. You ignore the very damning text from his regular masseuse. You choose to BELIEVE Watson.
I am not believing the women because f their sex - neither are most people. Most people are believing the women because of the overwhelming probability that 22 women didn't all lie. That the texts that say "I warned him he's getting a reputation and needs to stop" implies he was doing exactly what the women allege.
Looking for truth / angles / motive / alternate theories is commendable. Not taking things at face value is a good philosophy in any walk of life. Being faced with compelling evidence - albeit circumstantial or based on individual testimony, hell just having seen 40 odd different massage therapists is enough for a sane person to stop and go "hmmmmm" without the testimony. Does it mean he is guilty? No ... does it mean we might well pay attention to the MANY women telling us what happened? Probably.
And disregarding all this based on nothing more than ... well based on nothing ... is not commendable or justifiable. Thinking that if someone didn't seek counselling after an incident like this then the incident didn't happen is nuts on so many levels.
I'm not believing the "women because they're women". I'm believing that at least some of them are telling the truth because there are 22 of them. The first accuser was Ashley Solis which is a very successful and reputable massage therapist that from everything I've seen gives me no cause to believe she would make this up.
But, have you received and reviewed all the facts in the case?
I'm not believing the "women because they're women". I'm believing that at least some of them are telling the truth because there are 22 of them. The first accuser was Ashley Solis which is a very successful and reputable massage therapist that from everything I've seen gives me no cause to believe she would make this up.
But, have you received and reviewed all the facts in the case?
Here's your problem. What you seem to be advocating is that the Browns shouldn't consider this. That it should be ignored and that we should just take it on faith everything will be fine. That would be stupid. What you seem to be saying is we should weigh the word of Watson over a very reputable woman and other reputable women and make a business decision based on ignoring all of this.
I hope nothing like this ever happens to someone close to you. because then you would have to explain how you won't believe them until they get a conviction it in a court of law. Because until they do, you won't possibly believe them, right?
Watson tried to settle with all these women to keep the details quiet so of course he did nothing wrong.
So did Buzbee.
The global media story and court of public opinion have already convicted him. There's no way he gets an unbiased jury. Sadly, in the world we live in, settling to avoid potentially uncapped damages, even when innocent, is practical risk management.
Also can see how not wanting your sex life in the public eye could be a factor.
I don't see how he doesn't settle out of court at this point.
He probably will to some degree. There are probably some jump on the bandwagon claims. Once money is possible, lot's of things can be said or stretched.
I'm in the middle - but the FIRST THING is that there is corroborating text about seeking advice for a therapist after she was abused by a pro athlete immediately after the incident.
Pretty detailed. He's definitely a scumbag. His behavior escalated as time went on. Criminal cases like this hard to indict. Was going to plead the 5th at civil case deposition, but changed his mind with his attorney after criminal charges dropped. Further details are expected to come out in this deposition. Teams will want to see or will have requested transcripts.
Pretty detailed. He's definitely a scumbag. His behavior escalated as time went on. Criminal cases like this hard to indict. Was going to plead the 5th at civil case deposition, but changed his mind with his attorney after criminal charges dropped. Further details are expected to come out in this deposition. Teams will want to see or will have requested transcripts.
A Couple More Things to Remember (on top of Watson being a jerk):
1.) He could always be charged tomorrow. A new piece of evidence could come up -- a new district attorney could be elected. The prosecutors office is not bound by the grand jury, and can always choose to indict anyway.
2.) A guy who does this at least 22 times isn't very likely to stop tomorrow just because he got off the hook....
Two years, at most. He could well decide to sit out, demand a release, etc... and, after what has already happened, does anyone REALLY think any of that is far-fetched?
Add in he will probably be suspended for.........2, 4, 6, 8 games?
Just, at this point in time, ineptitude on behalf of the Browns, imo.
I mentioned this before somewhat in jest - but but based on historical treatment by the NFL, if Watson goes anywhere else I think he gets 6 game ban. When he signs here - he's going to get 10 weeks minimum.
I guess we are trying to imitate Pittsburg and Baltimore now. Fill the team up with criminals and get a SB ring because apparently team members young kids can look up to don't matter anymore ... Is winning the only thing that matters the message we want to send to our Youth? I hope not.
Pretty detailed. He's definitely a scumbag. His behavior escalated as time went on. Criminal cases like this hard to indict. Was going to plead the 5th at civil case deposition, but changed his mind with his attorney after criminal charges dropped. Further details are expected to come out in this deposition. Teams will want to see or will have requested transcripts.
Worth the time to listen.
Definitely worth the listen, but I'll take one for the team...
Interview is with someone covering story since beginning.
Lawsuits piled up in a hurry, she tried to get to the bottom of "what's actually going on".
People were perplexed by the timing coinciding with the backdrop of Watson wanting out of Houston. "Why now?"...
She says the story had actually been percolating for some time.
2 dozen accounts (24 total criminal and civil lawsuits) exposing himself, touching therapists hands with genitals, a few accounts alledging sexual assault.
Thinks they didn't go to police because many brushed it off and quit treating him. Word in the industry is these things are very hard to prove in a court of law with no video evidence.
She had spoken to many therapists in Houston area before getting in touch with "Mary". Mary had plenty of evidence including text messages and the gory details from her own experience.
Mary told the therapist who refereed him to her about her experience. Veteran therapist told her "all of the creepy stuff he does every time, there is only one therapist who hasn't complained".
A number of therapists admitted they submitted to consensual sex.
The amount of therapists he worked with was very uncommon (over fifty). He found many on instagram.
Evidence to Grand Jury was six hours behind closed doors. Course of action to indict was declined in all nine criminal cases. They were shown video of police interviews, only one person was called before jury to provide direct testimony. Warrants from police investigators over the course of a year described all ten complaints as credible and reliable.
Criminal complaints ranged from (3) alleged sexual assault / indecent exposure / sexual misconduct
Interviews with women said the NFL's questioning during their investigation made them uncomfortable. "Victim blaming" focusing on their behaviors rather than his... "what were you wearing".
NFL had plenty of corroborating evidence before deciding not to place Watson on exempt list.
Watson hasn't given any explanation to this point and lawyers will only say that any sex acts that occurred were consensual. Hopefully we'll get more details during civil lawsuits.
When asked "One most egregious incident?"
Accounts of women singularly may not seem that bad, but accounts escalated over time with Watson knowing full well he was making therapists uncomfortable. Taking any singular account is flawed and ignores a pattern of behavior that had become more reckless over time. Whether criminal charges stick should not be an indication or excuse for trauma caused by his actions, and should be carefully scrutinized by the team that hopes to sign him; if not the criminal justice system.
Two years, at most. He could well decide to sit out, demand a release, etc... and, after what has already happened, does anyone REALLY think any of that is far-fetched?
I agree that is possible but I would think unlikely because whatever team he ends up with he basically picked. To do any of that would be admitting you made a mistake and I don't get the impression that he is the kind of guy to admit mistakes.
"A number of therapists admitted they submitted to consensual sex."
Who does that? What kind of therapists are they?
The kind of therapist you find on IG. IMO, dude's clearly a predator (in that he seeks out women that may or may not (wink wink) be actual therapists).
well, it only means that he picked from the list of teams willing to give up the capital to make a trade. He may like the idea of trying to get to free agency sooner, while he's in his prime. Like any free agent going anywhere, he may decide that this place isn't what it was represented to him as being, etc.. lots of ways to twist it.
Creep. Not a predator. From that info, he contacted those women who let it known they offering a lot more than massages. And the fact that it’s consensual means you can’t call him a predator.
Again, a certified creep? Absolutely. being a creep isn’t illegal. Being a predator most certainly is.
Anyways, seems like teams are waiting to see where Watson lands, which means that adding Watson to the locker room is gonna hype the players up, not divide. Hopefully we can get Will fuller here.
Even if he serves a 4-6 game suspension, we have more than enough talent to win some games until he returns. On top of that, he will be in OTAs, training camp, etc.
And we don’t even know if he’ll actually get suspended yet.
"A number of therapists admitted they submitted to consensual sex."
Who does that? What kind of therapists are they?
There have been reports all along that some of them solicit on Instagram with subtle phrases like "BTW, I'm not a licensed therapist" *wink wink*
Do they mean that a number of the therapists that are accusing DW admitted they submitted to consensual sex?
She didn't speak specifically to the overlap and had interviewed many over the course of a year that didn't file charges. I'm sure it can be assumed that a small number (who filed charges) did admit to consent, or were later found to have.
Also of note: "Mary" did not file charges adding (imo) even more credence to her testimony and direct evidence.
Creep. Not a predator. From that info, he contacted those women who let it known they offering a lot more than massages. And the fact that it’s consensual means you can’t call him a predator.
Again, a certified creep? Absolutely. being a creep isn’t illegal. Being a predator most certainly is.
What I got from the interview was that only some of the women let it know they were offering more. Many were just doing massages. There was also an account of a person who turned him down and was upset but he accidently messaged her again not realizing he had already tried her. It did come off as quite predatory.
Creep. Not a predator. From that info, he contacted those women who let it known they offering a lot more than massages. And the fact that it’s consensual means you can’t call him a predator.
Again, a certified creep? Absolutely. being a creep isn’t illegal. Being a predator most certainly is.
Uhhh, you're speaking to a small number of the 50+ therapists. Seems like a pretty whack way of determining the validity of the experiences of those who did not consent.
? 22 accused, and you just pointed out that some already said it was consensual. If it’s 50+, that means more than half didn’t have an issue.
I’m just going off of the summarizes you guys are giving. 50+ did not accuse Watson of assault, 22 did not file criminal charges, and a portion of the 22 said it was consensual.
On top of that, we still don’t have the full story, and we don’t have any actual evidence to prove/disprove the claims.
I have a personal rule when it comes to sexual misconduct: take all accusations seriously, but believe the evidence.
Creep. Not a predator. From that info, he contacted those women who let it known they offering a lot more than massages. And the fact that it’s consensual means you can’t call him a predator.
Again, a certified creep? Absolutely. being a creep isn’t illegal. Being a predator most certainly is.
I meant predatory creep. Not the official 'predator' label or anything like that. Dude knew what he was doing using IG the way he was.
Creep. Not a predator. From that info, he contacted those women who let it known they offering a lot more than massages. And the fact that it’s consensual means you can’t call him a predator.
Again, a certified creep? Absolutely. being a creep isn’t illegal. Being a predator most certainly is.
I meant predatory creep. Not the official 'predator' label or anything like that. Dude knew what he was doing using IG the way he was.
If that’s how you and Lex meant it than yea I agree 100%
? 22 accused, and you just pointed out that some already said it was consensual. If it’s 50+, that means more than half didn’t have an issue.
I’m just going off of the summarizes you guys are giving. 50+ did not accuse Watson of assault, 22 did not file criminal charges, and a portion of the 22 said it was consensual.
On top of that, we still don’t have the full story, and we don’t have any actual evidence to prove/disprove the claims.
I have a personal rule when it comes to sexual misconduct: take all accusations seriously, but believe the evidence.
I dont think you have the facts right. 22 filed civil charges, some of the ones that filed criminal charges didn't file civil charges. I have not seen anywhere where it says how many did not file criminal charges. From what I gathered of the 50 some said it was consensual, some filed criminal charges, some filed civil charges and some filed both. I am not sure anyone should be downplaying this in any way though.
Gotta say, the way the last 48hrs have gone, I don’t have a lot of overwhelmingly positive thoughts and feelings about the Browns. Seriously, how am I supposed to root for this guy? And the way things have gone down with Baker… I’ve had my doubts about the guy but he was the first QB to win a playoff game in how long? He didn’t deliver the promise land but at least we got out of the cellar with him. Why let it get so acrimonious? Just not smart or “adult” and talk about shooting any sort trade leverage in the foot. Not cool.
I get it that this is a business but my love for any team has its limits. If they end up with no legit QB next year or worse, a guy we have to hold our nose to watch and give up the farm to get him… sheesh, I don’t know. The Browns are testing my loyalty.
"A number of therapists admitted they submitted to consensual sex."
Who does that? What kind of therapists are they?
The kind of therapist you find on IG. IMO, dude's clearly a predator (in that he seeks out women that may or may not (wink wink) be actual therapists).
It may have evolved on to that. But most certainly that is not at all the case with all possibly most of them.
Are you saying the complaints of real massage therapists are not valid and don't count as sexual assault because he later went looking for the rub n tug happy ending variety? Because while that's not what you (and Swish) have explicitly said, it is certainly implied.
We have corroborating proof of what happened Regards the first Lady to file immediately asking for advice on a pro athlete and sexual harrasment.we have police stating the 12 who pressed criminal charges are credible. I don't think the police state that if they are happy ending type massage therapists.
So is it a numbera game??? 22 real therapists would be top many but 12, that's something we can live with??
If we can put aside the creepy angle for a moment. If baker of 2020 is the guy we get in 2022 is the upgrade to Watson worth the deal I saw on here with 3 #1’s + newsome + somebody else. Really 4 #1’s. This really seems excessive to me . If Watson was a Boy Scout would this be a good deal??
On further research it was 2#1’s, newsome, hunt and mayfield. Also a 3 or 5. Still seems like too much
If we can put aside the creepy angle for a moment. If baker of 2020 is the guy we get in 2022 is the upgrade to Watson worth the deal I saw on here with 3 #1’s + newsome + somebody else. Really 4 #1’s. This really seems excessive to me . If Watson was a Boy Scout would this be a good deal??
Yes. Watson is legitimately great on the field and much better than Baker. But alas, he's a POS off the field.
That could be, and probably is the case. My concern is if Watson doesn't end up here, we have jack squat at qb - only left over subs. Imagine being Amari right now. "what?"
That could be, and probably is the case. My concern is if Watson doesn't end up here, we have jack squat at qb - only left over subs. Imagine being Amari right now. "what?"
Throw in the picks it would take, as well.....
It's like a complete re-set, yet again.
If the team doesn't view Baker highly then it was going to be a complete reset at the position either way.
I wanted to see Baker get one more season here healthy to see what he could do. Upgrade the WR's for him and see what happens. I'll admit DW would be an upgrade but the price is steep and I really don't want the drama and baggage he would bring. We've had enough of that over the years; too much. Honestly, and it's JMO, I don't think DW wants to come to Cleveland anyways but we shall see.
IF he comes to Cleveland, he better be worth it - even with some 6 or so games suspended.
What the front office has done is told Baker "we aren't with you", and..............crap, Watson isn't coming here??????? Crap crap crap....hey, baker, man, we were just trying to put a chip on you shoulder. Don't leave the whole team in limbo.......
I'll expect to see a winning Browns team at some point in the future. Probably when I'm ...........eh.
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