DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Trade for Watson 2

I think you may be letting your personal experience color your judgement. The world you grew up in is different than the world today. When you were 25, could you have imagined being able to send a private message to a perfect stranger over the internet asking them to rub your naked body in your private residence for money? Do you remember your libido at 25? We have women making over 6 figures to lick microphones on camera and sell bottled farts.The world has gotten weird. Throw in "fake news" and the fact that people lie is hard to ignore. What once would have been unbelievable is now who the heck knows/what the heck is wrong with people.

Your knowing women that have been treated in a way that resembles the allegations has no more bearing on the cases than someone knowing a man that was falsely accused.

Everyone brings their experience with them. But, the facts of the case don't necessarily match any of those experiences.

If you're looking towards big business/sports for examples of morality, you're probably looking in the wrong place. I don't watch entertainers for their private lives. I watch them for the public performance.

I'd prefer that they were all faultless, but the world doesn't work that way. Football is a violent sport. We're watching people scramble each other's brains and batter their bodies. That's not exactly morally pure in the first place.

There is a huge difference from believing 22 woman and labeling someone a sexual predator when he is not labeled a sexual predator in the eyes of the law. I would bet huge money the NFL, the Browns, and the other teams had teams of lawyers reading all of the evidence in the case. Commitments like this on that level in the business world are not done on a whim. Many lawyers had to give the OK to the Browns front office. I work fairly high up in a business and believe me decision like firing someone are not done without consulting company lawyers. Decisions to hire someone with a questionable past is only done after a thorough vetting and back ground check of that person. I am not saying 22 woman lied and inappropriate things did not take place. But, who am I told hold someone accountable that had the evidence reviewed and no longer faces criminal charges. That is very telling. Now I do believe woman should be treated like God's daughters. God's standards are much higher than mine and yours and if you really want to treat woman the right way then those standards should be followed. If we held people to those standards we would not have football teams much less employed people in business all over the world. Instead we follow the law of the land and at this point in time. Deshaun has not broken the laws of this land. It is a RIGHT as a citizen in the United States to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Until this man is found guilty in a court of law it is not right to label him any different.

I remember that I never made unwanted sexual advances towards women. I remember that not only didn't 22 women accuse me of such things, but not any woman did. I look for people to at least make some feeble attempt to live up to the standards they claim to stand for. Don't sit and tell me for years how important character is to you and then trade for a scum bag like this. There's a vast difference between faultless and egregious. Many of these women are reputable. They aren't "envelope lickers" or "fart bottlers". I think people also bring their lack of experience on such matters with them on such topics as well.

You either choose to believe all 22 of these women are liars or you don't. In the eyes of the law O.J. didn't commit murder either. Prosecutors rarely bring forth charges on a he said/she said case because they're almost impossible to convict. Which has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. You keep claiming all those women are lying and only Watson is telling the truth. What ever makes you sleep better at night.

There you go again. LOL

And I will keep going. You on the other hand whine about Baker being a punk over a social media post and refuse to say a peep about the fact we traded for a QB who refused to play because he couldn't hand pick his own HC.


And there you go again trying to silence anyone that has a different view than you do. 22 women. And yet here you are.

Almost 24h later and maybe I’m ready to look at the football side of this trade. It’s hard to forget the circumstances but I will try.

1. This was a steal. Three 1st round picks is nothing compared to what we get. $45m/season for a elite QB is going to be cheap in two three years.
2. Next move must be one more elite WR. You don’t hire Lucky Luke without his two guns.



Winner Nr1. DeShaun W. Money. New career. Probably moving forward without any serious consequences.
Winner Nr2. The Browns nation. Finally a elite QB and a competent roster. A couple of interesting years to follow.
Winner Nr3. Baker Mayfield. He deserves better and moving away from a toxic environment will help him immensely.

Those to criticize is the media, especially local media. The way they have treated Baker is disgusting. Shame on them.
Andrew Berry will come out of this with both praise and criticism. The deal was excellent. The rest is up to debate.

Biggest loser is Kevin Stefanski. Now he has nowhere to hide. All the pieces are there. He can’t use his natural scapegoat Baker and only W counts from now on. He must win his Division and at least end up in a Conference final otherwise he must go. Nothing suggest he’s elite HC and play caller. Next season will tell us who inside this organization is good enough or not.

Maybe I am mis-reading what you write, but it feels very much like your entire stance is one of enablement and "nothing to see here" ... the inference that Watson entered into agreed upon sexual encounters with these women is 100% false. It's like instead of even considering that Watson has done what he's accused of - and that what he did doesn't meet the threshold of rape, and is something that is extraordinarily hard to prove in a court of law - you would much rather just keep coming up with a contrived excuse or deflection. It's not maybe he did, maybe he didn't -- it's 100% deflection away from the possibility Watson exploited and sexually accosted professional massage therapists. Like I said - maybe I am misinterpreting you but you seem to be opposing any view that wants to judge Watson harshly and guilty of sexual exploitations/assault/exposure.

I have absolutely no doubt that amongst the 50+ women that are believed to have been involved in these incidents (not all of them filed) many, many of them were aware of what Watson was looking for and were their in with full understanding. It also seem very evident/probable based on research and testimony for credible professionals - that many did not.

I could care less if people want to embrace Watson as a QB that might take them to the promised land. I have two 'best' friends who I called and text to yesterday... they are both on board with Watson, don't care about anything else. We disagree but we're not telling each other that the other is wrong to feel one way or the other .... what I do find nauseating is the contrived way this repeated sexual deviant behavior is being brushed off as being nothing more than a bunch of (essentially) sex workers trying to get one over on a famous athlete. There is enough credible evidence to know that is NOT true. The police don't pronounce rub n tug 'sex workers' as credible/reliable witnesses.

Putting aside the pending Sexual Civil suits -

- I don't think three 1's is too much for a legitimate FQB.
- My issue with Watson is he is a analytics wet dream with awesome stats - but having played on better teams than Baker in a weaker division, his post season success is MEH.
- He's a flake he bailed on his team when he didn't get to contribute to the choice of FO personnel. He was labeled as a Diva by many after that... just what we need.
- His contract is 100% guaranteed which is the only way we got him to come to a team HE DID NOT WANT TO BE ON OTHERWISE. That guarantee carries MUCH risk.
- I'll wait and see what Stefanski does - but so far everything we've seen about a KS offense in Minnesota and in Cleveland ... he DOES NOT NEED and will not utilize the ability of a top 5 QB.
- Last time I saw Watson play in bad Ohio weather ... he played like POOP.
- I have a clear image of him scampering around under pressure holding the ball like a load of bread. Doesn't he hold the ball a long time just like someone else?

I'll continue to root for the Browns ... I'll mock anything they ever do regards claiming character and accountability is important. I won't be rooting for Watson. I'm fully expecting somehthing bad to happen within 24-36 months and we will be searching for a new QB.

So after completely losing my crap last night, and having time to cool down, I've decided that DW is not worth throwing away 50 years of fandom for. I will continue to root for the team, but not for Watson. I will listen to all the facts that come out and if he somehow proves he is not scum, then good. If not, then he will never be my QB, just Backpage Watson, a creepy pal of Jimmy Haslam. I can live with this as long as he's not busted doing more crap here, and he continues to cooperate and go through the court process. I can't fault a man who is trying to prove his innocence, but with so many women saying the same things, I'm assuming guilt until he proves otherwise. Fans don't have to be fair or impartial.

Jc

Would’ve been nice to have Watson throwing to OBJ and Juice. I just think about all the passes that were thrown high and wide, and how a much accurate Watson would’ve made those routine throws.

Makes also wonder if hooper ends up as big of a disappointment as he was. I’m glad we have Amari cooper, but I’m really hoping we can get juice back or another receiver. I just don’t know who, seeing as how Allen Robison is already signed with the rams. I would still give Julio Jones a 1 year deal if he’d take it.

OBJ wouldn't have caught more balls. He didn't want to be here. This wasn't his kind of city. He dropped so many catchable balls that is was disgusting.

There's a lot of women still thinking about his passes too. He was just using different balls.

OBJ is a has-been punk. I want nothing to do with him. Landry is always welcome.

I never once said 22 woman should not be believed. What I have been saying is it is a RIGHT in our Country to be presumed innocent UNTIL proven guilty. Until the law says the man is a sexual predator I have no right to do so. The FBI, the Houston Grand Jury found no evidence to prove a criminal act has taken place. Those woman have provided their evidence to their lawyers and the prosecution but did not have enough evidence to prove their case. The bottom line is they had their day in criminal court and so did Watson. Being accused does not make a person a criminal being found guilty does. Now those same woman will have their day in a cival court where the standards are not quite a high. Maybe, they will win some form of what they feel will be justice in that case. Maybe they won't. The bottom line is this man was not found a sexual predator and to label him something he was not proven at this time to be is wrong.

I think OBJ would’ve been fine had he got the targets that Watson would’ve fed him. Plenty of players end up on teams they don’t necessarily want to be on, but targets and winning will make a player deal with it.

1 thing about your first paragraph: If Watson had the same injuries as Baker had last year, would he have been accurate?

Now, j/c: As a life long Browns fan, I understand the hoopla, seemingly every year recently, about how loaded the Browns are after the draft.

This year, we're getting all the "super bowl with Watson....." stuff. I feel what some forget is, he's probably going to be suspended for 4-8 games?



With the expectations as high as they are, I don't see it. If, and I realize it's an IF - IF Watson ain't all that and a bag of chips, we're screwed for a while. Again.

I was not and am not enamored by the signing, for reasons I won't get into, and don't need to. Enough has been said about everything.


But, the expectations are beyond belief. Remember, a suspension (likely) or an injury kills the team. (I know, an injury to ANY starting qb has devastating results.)

I've gotten too excited about signings and/or drafts over the years for me to even think about. I'm done with that. Do it on the field.

And again, after my "Now, j/c" thing - not directed at YOU, just directed at everyone in general.

Hottest selling jersey in Cleveland sports history will be the new #23 Jack MeHoff to replace the former #23 of Lebron.

Swish, to finish up our conversation from the last thread.

If watson did the least imaginable of the accusations then I can easily say, Eh I don't like the guy. Go Browns.
If watson did the worst imaginable of the accusations that makes it hard to root for the Browns

Guess I am at the point where I am going to sit back, watch what comes out of the civil suits ands see how I feel once the players are on the field.
Until then I am out of the discussion.

Been thinking about this myself.

Keenum restructures? Someone else?

He had balls hit him right in the hands, that he barely tried to catch. I remember a perfect 4th down pass, that he bounced off his hands, then looked like ..... "what happened?".

Then he went to a team he wanted to be with, in a city he wanted to be in ...and suddenly, his hands re-grew. It was amazing.

As for targets ... He played 5 games inn Cleveland. He had 34 (5.7/game) targets and 17 catches. He went to LA, and had 48 targets in 8 games. (6/game)

His average yards/catch went from 13.6 per catch in Clevland, to 11.3 per catch in LA. He hardly got a ton more targets there, per game, anyway.

He went from #1 receiver in Cleveland, to #2 in LA. The only thing he improved on was catching TDs, which is important, but it helps when you catch the ball.

I truly believe that Baker lost every ounce of trust he ever has in OBJ, with his drops, and likely running wrong routes. (a supposition on my part)


Would Watson have made the difference here? Who knows. I truly believe that he wanted no part of Cleveland, and would have been much as he was, in trying to get to where he wanted to be.

That’s the best any of us can do. I want the truth to come out, regardless how it makes Watson look.

Right but I’m talking the entire time YTown, not just last year. And you can’t argue how much more productive OBJ was with Matt Stafford than Baker. OBJ tried to buy in here, but when you got passes sailing over your head or under thrown, it’s gonna have an effect.

I can’t just ignore the fact that baker went from trying to force it to OBJ to not even targeting him.

And on top of that, I can’t ignore how OBJ left, and baker got worse. OBJ owns those drops, but I’m not gonna ignore the other side of this, which is Baker being woefully inaccurate not just with him, but the entire receiving corp.

I mean for gods sake. He made hooper look bad too. He wanted to be here and looked bad. OBJ didn’t want to be here and still looked bad.

Him, hooper, and Landry are now gone. At some point you gotta look at the guy throwing the ball, man.

j/c:

To everyone who has said they are done with the Browns as a team and will no longer be a fan, I'm sorry, but you are only fooling yourself. 99% of you claiming this personal revolution will be right back in front the of TV, or at the stadium, come September (if not earlier) because your decades of fandom outweighs the current few days of anguish/disgust many of us feel. And if you think you will be that 1%, you won't be. How do I know?-- You are a routine visitor or contributor on a Browns message board for Pete's sake.

Now this doesn't mean you can't hate what has happened and want answers but you will be back at again come fall. I'm just saying what everyone won't but already knows.

I agree. Now some of the posters, mostly Pit will just use this to continue their usual schtick of bad mouthing other posters while acting as if they are the only person with the right view. Pit, I have you on ignore because you are doing nothing but repeating the same crap over and over. We all get how you feel, and many could care less. But posting twenty or thirty times in every thread the same holier than thou responses is just lame. I have never before put anybody on ignore, but I can't even read a thread anymore without it being your usual schtick taking up the whole thread. I know you get off on that, and it never bothered me before, but now it is just so repetitive and self indulgent he is sickening. I sure you will have one of your usual degrading responces to this, I'm just glad I won't have to see it. I honestly don't think you come here to dicuss football, I think it a fetish of yours to argue with people and act as if you are always right. If you don't like what the team is doing go somewhere else.

This where I'm at. People on here acting like he's already been convicted or found liable. We don't know anything except that the Browns FO did extensive work to find out what was going on and felt good enough to give up alot to get him.

Until the civil suits find him liable there is nothing to see here and all you have are accusations that came a peculiar timing after he requested a trade. Watson has never wavered from his story and maintained his innocence. Which is exactly what he should do. Burden of proof is on the accusers and criminally they found nothing that they could indict him on. So that makes the civil suits alot harder. One thing that may lead one to believe in some inappropriate behaviour from the NFL side would be the way the browns structured his contract. I believe this is what got watson to sign. Knowing the impact of the suspension was a pittance. I say sit back and worry about it when there's something to worry about

I am not trying to silence you. I just don't like you calling people who don't agree with your take as being morally deficient.

Ok, we get it, you don't like the trade for a number of reasons. You don't have to voice it 52 different ways then get high browed with people who don't see it your way.

I’m as mixed as anybody about this trade. I truly feel conflicted and see both sides … of course, I also know that when it’s October 25th and Watson leads us to a win against Baltimore I’ll be as happy as anyone

I'm having a hard time digesting this. 22 women cannot all be lying can they? How many civil suits will Watson be convicted in and how many is OK for me as a man with morals? Right now, I think this guy is a POS given my assumption (rightly or wrongly) that 22 women aren't lying. Are some of them lying? Possibly. But this kind of conduct is not something I want to associate with. And I know there are a number of you out there who certainly had A LOT to say about Big Ben and his escapades. Some of you are saying you are rooting for the Browns but not Watson. That makes zero sense in my opinion. The Browns simply cannot succeed if Watson fails. I guess after 50 years it is REALLY hard to turn away from this team. But honestly, I cannot see myself really cheering for them knowing they made a deal with the devil (of sorts). I think Baker was made the fall guy especially after last year and his health problems. Is he is bad as he played last year? No. Is he a franchise QB that can go out and win games when called upon? Probably not. But I know this: The guy played his ass off and got this fan base excited again. He was part of the team (when healthy) that won a playoff game on the road against the hated Pittsburgh Steelers. And we ALL loved him for that. We now know that Stefanski out and out LIED when he said Baker said he was ready to go. We also know that Stefanski did NOT do the right thing by letting Baker play given his health. I don't believe in Stefanski as a leader or play caller. I think he is in WAY over his head and he is wildly arrogant. For now, I guess I have to wait and see what happens in the courts with Watson. If he is found guilty, I have no choice but to walk away until he is no longer a Cleveland Brown. I don't think much of Haslam or Stefanski at this point. I'm interested where Baker goes. I hope he leads his new team to the playoffs. Now we wait.

I don't have it, and don't do twitter, but my son showed me a tweet sent by Duke Johnson yesterday.

If you remember, Baker was talking about Duke to get on the train or get off. Funny stuff. Maybe sombody can find it.

guess I'm the 1%

So you make a comment to Pitt and then stick your fingers in your ears like a little child? That's some weak stuff right there!

My stance isn't "nothing to see here." My stance is I don't actually know what happened, so I'll wait and see. I don't know where on the spectrum of innocent to guilty of heinous, vicious crime the truth is. I think it is more likely to be in the middle than either of the extremes (though I could be wrong.) A lot of people seem to be looking at it in either the "best" case or worst case scenario, sort of black or white. I'm more trying to parse, how dirty of a gray, and there's just too much that I don't know. Pit (and others, but I was responding to him in the earlier post) can have a tendency to view things in the worst possible light. Someone who had been or knew someone that had been falsely accused might see it in the "best possible" (don't really like using that phrase in this context but for brevity's sake there it is) light. Real life is rarely that binary.

What makes someone credible/reliable? People can see someone as that/believe that, but knowing it is another matter. I think in this sort of case, police assume witnesses/victims are credible until proven otherwise-much like the over-arching legal system's innocent until proven guilty. I'll admit that my personal experience with "credible professional" sports massage therapists is practically none-existent, but scheduling private sessions at someone's residence via a personal instagram's direct message system seems somewhat sketchy to me. This could be perfectly normal I suppose, but it doesn't scream "credible professional" to me, which seems to be many people's assumption of all the accusers. My assumption is that I have so little information about them, I have no idea how credible they are, and that the different accusers probably have different degrees of credibility.

They could be reliable, but the cases also haven't gotten to trial. So, neither, they nor Watson, have been cross-examined. Sadly, I expect that could get very ugly, but would also likely be very revealing.

So my stance is, I don't like it, but I don't know. Given my lack of direct knowledge, I assume those that made the decisions have more info than me. Those that seem to want to form a lynch mob seem a little bit premature to me, and they were almost definitely relying on a lot of assumptions to get to their conclusion. They could end up being right, but they could also be wrong.

People making judgements out of a false sense of certainty irk me. The "there's 22 of them, they can't all be lying" argument is logically false. They might all be telling the truth, but the number is not concrete evidence. They literally all could be lying. Again, I'm not saying they are, but how could anyone on here possibly know with certainty?

The accusations should be taken seriously. The legal process is ongoing. At this point, I don't know that assuming guilt is any better than assuming innocence.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mitchschwartz71/status/1505162101291106311

Well said Schwartz


Be interesting to see if other players chime in.

I agree. The optics of it look VERY slimy.

I am a self defined lurker of this board and don't post very often, but I am a bit shocked by some of the responses by many of you regarding Watson the person..

Let's remember that everyone in this country is innocent until proven guilty. I am sure that has been advantageous for many of you in your lives. DeShaun has been ACCUSED of what many may consider a crime, but at the end of the day it is 22 womens word against his. I know that is thick. When there is 22 accusations the whole, where there is smoke there is fire, adage comes into play.

This Lawyer that is representing these women is a snake. He is out for fame, attention, and a big payday. It has been reported that he sought out more women to coerce them into filing a lawsuit against Watson, because they may have a case against him. Don't discount the tactics of this lawyer. He is looking for a payday, and notoriety. He has let these women believe they have a case against Watson. None of them, besides the initial, came forward until he sought them out.

DeShaun is not to be absolved from the things he did that are proven as fact. Many of you are attacking him because he is not taking responsibility. You don't take responsibility for something you did not, or feel like you did not do. That is admitting, or setting the perception of guilt.

There are lawyers on this board. There are fathers, there are women, and there are mothers. I understand your feelings. I really do. At the end of the day, we are a fan of the team. If Watson was guilty of these crimes, and it comes out that he is, I would have a different take on him as the person. Not the team. Our FO went into this going with the fact that he is innocent, because he has not been proven guilty in anyway. If that changes, maybe our stance does as well. I will say this though. You can't make me believe that we committed this much money, and these many assets to this guy unless we were sure he is good. We have to remember that many people have way more info than what the media is sharing with us. We are reliant on the media for information, the team has access to way more that has not been released yet.

I am a father of a 14 year old girl. I would not tolerate anyone behaving like this with her. I also understand perception and reality, and understand the difference between the two. Until the final truth comes out, we cannot condemn this man as guilty.

Again, 22 women is significant, but what is the actual reality of what happened? If I'm naked getting a massage, who knows how my body would respond? Is an erect penis in this situation deemed sexual misconduct? Again don't know details. Just sharing some thoughts.

Can you imagine if Watson plays like crap?
Worse than Mayfield. Haslam better sell he team.

Haslam already admits, by acquiring Watson, that he is fine with men sexually abusing women. He has no problem with it. The NFL is fine with it too. In fact, it basically encourages it, you get a pay raise like Watson.

I wonder what some of the Browns players think about the acquisition, those players that actually care about having a sexual predator on the team.

I am a Browns fan forever, but I will cheer the day Haslam sells the team.

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/20...e-for-deshaun-watson.html?outputType=amp

More than 1000 people donated to Rape Crisis Center because of this. It is triggering for a lot of people. Browns Reddit blew up yesterday about this. A lot of people quitting. A lot of people donating in Baker's name because they don't want CLE represented by a serial sex predator.

So something good is coming from all of this.

Deshaun Watson has declared his innocence since day 1 and his story has not changed since the story first broke. The Grand Jury also ruled that they did not have enough evidence to even say a crime committed. You are calling this man a sexual predator without evidence to prove it. It is a right in the Country as a citizen to be presumed innocent UNTIL proven guilty. The woman accusing Deshaun has had their day in criminal court and did not have the evidence to prove a crime was committed. Now they will have their day in a cival court and they do not have to provide enough evidence that a crime was committed just enough evidence that Deshaun was responsible for their pain or misfortune. It is a much lower bar than criminal court. The Browns have actually from reports been on campus in Clemson, spoke to women that was close to Watson in College. Their lawyers poured thru the evidence theirselves and have followed the procedures very closely. In other wards they have vetted Deshaun and his past as has the NFL and other teams. He has never had any wrong doings in his past before these accusations. He assured the Browns he is innocent and nothing like this he will ever do. So he has been an upstanding citizen in his past, he faces no criminal charges at this time, his story has never changed, and his past has been thoroughly vetted. Who are we to proclaim guilt or call him a predator with no facts?