I think you may be letting your personal experience color your judgement. The world you grew up in is different than the world today. When you were 25, could you have imagined being able to send a private message to a perfect stranger over the internet asking them to rub your naked body in your private residence for money? Do you remember your libido at 25? We have women making over 6 figures to lick microphones on camera and sell bottled farts.The world has gotten weird. Throw in "fake news" and the fact that people lie is hard to ignore. What once would have been unbelievable is now who the heck knows/what the heck is wrong with people.

Your knowing women that have been treated in a way that resembles the allegations has no more bearing on the cases than someone knowing a man that was falsely accused.

Everyone brings their experience with them. But, the facts of the case don't necessarily match any of those experiences.

If you're looking towards big business/sports for examples of morality, you're probably looking in the wrong place. I don't watch entertainers for their private lives. I watch them for the public performance.

I'd prefer that they were all faultless, but the world doesn't work that way. Football is a violent sport. We're watching people scramble each other's brains and batter their bodies. That's not exactly morally pure in the first place.

There is a huge difference from believing 22 woman and labeling someone a sexual predator when he is not labeled a sexual predator in the eyes of the law. I would bet huge money the NFL, the Browns, and the other teams had teams of lawyers reading all of the evidence in the case. Commitments like this on that level in the business world are not done on a whim. Many lawyers had to give the OK to the Browns front office. I work fairly high up in a business and believe me decision like firing someone are not done without consulting company lawyers. Decisions to hire someone with a questionable past is only done after a thorough vetting and back ground check of that person. I am not saying 22 woman lied and inappropriate things did not take place. But, who am I told hold someone accountable that had the evidence reviewed and no longer faces criminal charges. That is very telling. Now I do believe woman should be treated like God's daughters. God's standards are much higher than mine and yours and if you really want to treat woman the right way then those standards should be followed. If we held people to those standards we would not have football teams much less employed people in business all over the world. Instead we follow the law of the land and at this point in time. Deshaun has not broken the laws of this land. It is a RIGHT as a citizen in the United States to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Until this man is found guilty in a court of law it is not right to label him any different.

I remember that I never made unwanted sexual advances towards women. I remember that not only didn't 22 women accuse me of such things, but not any woman did. I look for people to at least make some feeble attempt to live up to the standards they claim to stand for. Don't sit and tell me for years how important character is to you and then trade for a scum bag like this. There's a vast difference between faultless and egregious. Many of these women are reputable. They aren't "envelope lickers" or "fart bottlers". I think people also bring their lack of experience on such matters with them on such topics as well.

You either choose to believe all 22 of these women are liars or you don't. In the eyes of the law O.J. didn't commit murder either. Prosecutors rarely bring forth charges on a he said/she said case because they're almost impossible to convict. Which has nothing to do with what did or did not happen. You keep claiming all those women are lying and only Watson is telling the truth. What ever makes you sleep better at night.

There you go again. LOL

And I will keep going. You on the other hand whine about Baker being a punk over a social media post and refuse to say a peep about the fact we traded for a QB who refused to play because he couldn't hand pick his own HC.


And there you go again trying to silence anyone that has a different view than you do. 22 women. And yet here you are.

Almost 24h later and maybe I’m ready to look at the football side of this trade. It’s hard to forget the circumstances but I will try.

1. This was a steal. Three 1st round picks is nothing compared to what we get. $45m/season for a elite QB is going to be cheap in two three years.
2. Next move must be one more elite WR. You don’t hire Lucky Luke without his two guns.



Winner Nr1. DeShaun W. Money. New career. Probably moving forward without any serious consequences.
Winner Nr2. The Browns nation. Finally a elite QB and a competent roster. A couple of interesting years to follow.
Winner Nr3. Baker Mayfield. He deserves better and moving away from a toxic environment will help him immensely.

Those to criticize is the media, especially local media. The way they have treated Baker is disgusting. Shame on them.
Andrew Berry will come out of this with both praise and criticism. The deal was excellent. The rest is up to debate.

Biggest loser is Kevin Stefanski. Now he has nowhere to hide. All the pieces are there. He can’t use his natural scapegoat Baker and only W counts from now on. He must win his Division and at least end up in a Conference final otherwise he must go. Nothing suggest he’s elite HC and play caller. Next season will tell us who inside this organization is good enough or not.

Maybe I am mis-reading what you write, but it feels very much like your entire stance is one of enablement and "nothing to see here" ... the inference that Watson entered into agreed upon sexual encounters with these women is 100% false. It's like instead of even considering that Watson has done what he's accused of - and that what he did doesn't meet the threshold of rape, and is something that is extraordinarily hard to prove in a court of law - you would much rather just keep coming up with a contrived excuse or deflection. It's not maybe he did, maybe he didn't -- it's 100% deflection away from the possibility Watson exploited and sexually accosted professional massage therapists. Like I said - maybe I am misinterpreting you but you seem to be opposing any view that wants to judge Watson harshly and guilty of sexual exploitations/assault/exposure.

I have absolutely no doubt that amongst the 50+ women that are believed to have been involved in these incidents (not all of them filed) many, many of them were aware of what Watson was looking for and were their in with full understanding. It also seem very evident/probable based on research and testimony for credible professionals - that many did not.

I could care less if people want to embrace Watson as a QB that might take them to the promised land. I have two 'best' friends who I called and text to yesterday... they are both on board with Watson, don't care about anything else. We disagree but we're not telling each other that the other is wrong to feel one way or the other .... what I do find nauseating is the contrived way this repeated sexual deviant behavior is being brushed off as being nothing more than a bunch of (essentially) sex workers trying to get one over on a famous athlete. There is enough credible evidence to know that is NOT true. The police don't pronounce rub n tug 'sex workers' as credible/reliable witnesses.

Putting aside the pending Sexual Civil suits -

- I don't think three 1's is too much for a legitimate FQB.
- My issue with Watson is he is a analytics wet dream with awesome stats - but having played on better teams than Baker in a weaker division, his post season success is MEH.
- He's a flake he bailed on his team when he didn't get to contribute to the choice of FO personnel. He was labeled as a Diva by many after that... just what we need.
- His contract is 100% guaranteed which is the only way we got him to come to a team HE DID NOT WANT TO BE ON OTHERWISE. That guarantee carries MUCH risk.
- I'll wait and see what Stefanski does - but so far everything we've seen about a KS offense in Minnesota and in Cleveland ... he DOES NOT NEED and will not utilize the ability of a top 5 QB.
- Last time I saw Watson play in bad Ohio weather ... he played like POOP.
- I have a clear image of him scampering around under pressure holding the ball like a load of bread. Doesn't he hold the ball a long time just like someone else?

I'll continue to root for the Browns ... I'll mock anything they ever do regards claiming character and accountability is important. I won't be rooting for Watson. I'm fully expecting somehthing bad to happen within 24-36 months and we will be searching for a new QB.

So after completely losing my crap last night, and having time to cool down, I've decided that DW is not worth throwing away 50 years of fandom for. I will continue to root for the team, but not for Watson. I will listen to all the facts that come out and if he somehow proves he is not scum, then good. If not, then he will never be my QB, just Backpage Watson, a creepy pal of Jimmy Haslam. I can live with this as long as he's not busted doing more crap here, and he continues to cooperate and go through the court process. I can't fault a man who is trying to prove his innocence, but with so many women saying the same things, I'm assuming guilt until he proves otherwise. Fans don't have to be fair or impartial.

Jc

Would’ve been nice to have Watson throwing to OBJ and Juice. I just think about all the passes that were thrown high and wide, and how a much accurate Watson would’ve made those routine throws.

Makes also wonder if hooper ends up as big of a disappointment as he was. I’m glad we have Amari cooper, but I’m really hoping we can get juice back or another receiver. I just don’t know who, seeing as how Allen Robison is already signed with the rams. I would still give Julio Jones a 1 year deal if he’d take it.

OBJ wouldn't have caught more balls. He didn't want to be here. This wasn't his kind of city. He dropped so many catchable balls that is was disgusting.

There's a lot of women still thinking about his passes too. He was just using different balls.

OBJ is a has-been punk. I want nothing to do with him. Landry is always welcome.

I never once said 22 woman should not be believed. What I have been saying is it is a RIGHT in our Country to be presumed innocent UNTIL proven guilty. Until the law says the man is a sexual predator I have no right to do so. The FBI, the Houston Grand Jury found no evidence to prove a criminal act has taken place. Those woman have provided their evidence to their lawyers and the prosecution but did not have enough evidence to prove their case. The bottom line is they had their day in criminal court and so did Watson. Being accused does not make a person a criminal being found guilty does. Now those same woman will have their day in a cival court where the standards are not quite a high. Maybe, they will win some form of what they feel will be justice in that case. Maybe they won't. The bottom line is this man was not found a sexual predator and to label him something he was not proven at this time to be is wrong.

I think OBJ would’ve been fine had he got the targets that Watson would’ve fed him. Plenty of players end up on teams they don’t necessarily want to be on, but targets and winning will make a player deal with it.

1 thing about your first paragraph: If Watson had the same injuries as Baker had last year, would he have been accurate?

Now, j/c: As a life long Browns fan, I understand the hoopla, seemingly every year recently, about how loaded the Browns are after the draft.

This year, we're getting all the "super bowl with Watson....." stuff. I feel what some forget is, he's probably going to be suspended for 4-8 games?



With the expectations as high as they are, I don't see it. If, and I realize it's an IF - IF Watson ain't all that and a bag of chips, we're screwed for a while. Again.

I was not and am not enamored by the signing, for reasons I won't get into, and don't need to. Enough has been said about everything.


But, the expectations are beyond belief. Remember, a suspension (likely) or an injury kills the team. (I know, an injury to ANY starting qb has devastating results.)

I've gotten too excited about signings and/or drafts over the years for me to even think about. I'm done with that. Do it on the field.

And again, after my "Now, j/c" thing - not directed at YOU, just directed at everyone in general.

Hottest selling jersey in Cleveland sports history will be the new #23 Jack MeHoff to replace the former #23 of Lebron.

Swish, to finish up our conversation from the last thread.

If watson did the least imaginable of the accusations then I can easily say, Eh I don't like the guy. Go Browns.
If watson did the worst imaginable of the accusations that makes it hard to root for the Browns

Guess I am at the point where I am going to sit back, watch what comes out of the civil suits ands see how I feel once the players are on the field.
Until then I am out of the discussion.

Been thinking about this myself.

Keenum restructures? Someone else?

He had balls hit him right in the hands, that he barely tried to catch. I remember a perfect 4th down pass, that he bounced off his hands, then looked like ..... "what happened?".

Then he went to a team he wanted to be with, in a city he wanted to be in ...and suddenly, his hands re-grew. It was amazing.

As for targets ... He played 5 games inn Cleveland. He had 34 (5.7/game) targets and 17 catches. He went to LA, and had 48 targets in 8 games. (6/game)

His average yards/catch went from 13.6 per catch in Clevland, to 11.3 per catch in LA. He hardly got a ton more targets there, per game, anyway.

He went from #1 receiver in Cleveland, to #2 in LA. The only thing he improved on was catching TDs, which is important, but it helps when you catch the ball.

I truly believe that Baker lost every ounce of trust he ever has in OBJ, with his drops, and likely running wrong routes. (a supposition on my part)


Would Watson have made the difference here? Who knows. I truly believe that he wanted no part of Cleveland, and would have been much as he was, in trying to get to where he wanted to be.

That’s the best any of us can do. I want the truth to come out, regardless how it makes Watson look.

Right but I’m talking the entire time YTown, not just last year. And you can’t argue how much more productive OBJ was with Matt Stafford than Baker. OBJ tried to buy in here, but when you got passes sailing over your head or under thrown, it’s gonna have an effect.

I can’t just ignore the fact that baker went from trying to force it to OBJ to not even targeting him.

And on top of that, I can’t ignore how OBJ left, and baker got worse. OBJ owns those drops, but I’m not gonna ignore the other side of this, which is Baker being woefully inaccurate not just with him, but the entire receiving corp.

I mean for gods sake. He made hooper look bad too. He wanted to be here and looked bad. OBJ didn’t want to be here and still looked bad.

Him, hooper, and Landry are now gone. At some point you gotta look at the guy throwing the ball, man.

j/c:

To everyone who has said they are done with the Browns as a team and will no longer be a fan, I'm sorry, but you are only fooling yourself. 99% of you claiming this personal revolution will be right back in front the of TV, or at the stadium, come September (if not earlier) because your decades of fandom outweighs the current few days of anguish/disgust many of us feel. And if you think you will be that 1%, you won't be. How do I know?-- You are a routine visitor or contributor on a Browns message board for Pete's sake.

Now this doesn't mean you can't hate what has happened and want answers but you will be back at again come fall. I'm just saying what everyone won't but already knows.

I agree. Now some of the posters, mostly Pit will just use this to continue their usual schtick of bad mouthing other posters while acting as if they are the only person with the right view. Pit, I have you on ignore because you are doing nothing but repeating the same crap over and over. We all get how you feel, and many could care less. But posting twenty or thirty times in every thread the same holier than thou responses is just lame. I have never before put anybody on ignore, but I can't even read a thread anymore without it being your usual schtick taking up the whole thread. I know you get off on that, and it never bothered me before, but now it is just so repetitive and self indulgent he is sickening. I sure you will have one of your usual degrading responces to this, I'm just glad I won't have to see it. I honestly don't think you come here to dicuss football, I think it a fetish of yours to argue with people and act as if you are always right. If you don't like what the team is doing go somewhere else.

This where I'm at. People on here acting like he's already been convicted or found liable. We don't know anything except that the Browns FO did extensive work to find out what was going on and felt good enough to give up alot to get him.

Until the civil suits find him liable there is nothing to see here and all you have are accusations that came a peculiar timing after he requested a trade. Watson has never wavered from his story and maintained his innocence. Which is exactly what he should do. Burden of proof is on the accusers and criminally they found nothing that they could indict him on. So that makes the civil suits alot harder. One thing that may lead one to believe in some inappropriate behaviour from the NFL side would be the way the browns structured his contract. I believe this is what got watson to sign. Knowing the impact of the suspension was a pittance. I say sit back and worry about it when there's something to worry about

I am not trying to silence you. I just don't like you calling people who don't agree with your take as being morally deficient.

Ok, we get it, you don't like the trade for a number of reasons. You don't have to voice it 52 different ways then get high browed with people who don't see it your way.

I’m as mixed as anybody about this trade. I truly feel conflicted and see both sides … of course, I also know that when it’s October 25th and Watson leads us to a win against Baltimore I’ll be as happy as anyone

I'm having a hard time digesting this. 22 women cannot all be lying can they? How many civil suits will Watson be convicted in and how many is OK for me as a man with morals? Right now, I think this guy is a POS given my assumption (rightly or wrongly) that 22 women aren't lying. Are some of them lying? Possibly. But this kind of conduct is not something I want to associate with. And I know there are a number of you out there who certainly had A LOT to say about Big Ben and his escapades. Some of you are saying you are rooting for the Browns but not Watson. That makes zero sense in my opinion. The Browns simply cannot succeed if Watson fails. I guess after 50 years it is REALLY hard to turn away from this team. But honestly, I cannot see myself really cheering for them knowing they made a deal with the devil (of sorts). I think Baker was made the fall guy especially after last year and his health problems. Is he is bad as he played last year? No. Is he a franchise QB that can go out and win games when called upon? Probably not. But I know this: The guy played his ass off and got this fan base excited again. He was part of the team (when healthy) that won a playoff game on the road against the hated Pittsburgh Steelers. And we ALL loved him for that. We now know that Stefanski out and out LIED when he said Baker said he was ready to go. We also know that Stefanski did NOT do the right thing by letting Baker play given his health. I don't believe in Stefanski as a leader or play caller. I think he is in WAY over his head and he is wildly arrogant. For now, I guess I have to wait and see what happens in the courts with Watson. If he is found guilty, I have no choice but to walk away until he is no longer a Cleveland Brown. I don't think much of Haslam or Stefanski at this point. I'm interested where Baker goes. I hope he leads his new team to the playoffs. Now we wait.

I don't have it, and don't do twitter, but my son showed me a tweet sent by Duke Johnson yesterday.

If you remember, Baker was talking about Duke to get on the train or get off. Funny stuff. Maybe sombody can find it.

guess I'm the 1%

So you make a comment to Pitt and then stick your fingers in your ears like a little child? That's some weak stuff right there!

My stance isn't "nothing to see here." My stance is I don't actually know what happened, so I'll wait and see. I don't know where on the spectrum of innocent to guilty of heinous, vicious crime the truth is. I think it is more likely to be in the middle than either of the extremes (though I could be wrong.) A lot of people seem to be looking at it in either the "best" case or worst case scenario, sort of black or white. I'm more trying to parse, how dirty of a gray, and there's just too much that I don't know. Pit (and others, but I was responding to him in the earlier post) can have a tendency to view things in the worst possible light. Someone who had been or knew someone that had been falsely accused might see it in the "best possible" (don't really like using that phrase in this context but for brevity's sake there it is) light. Real life is rarely that binary.

What makes someone credible/reliable? People can see someone as that/believe that, but knowing it is another matter. I think in this sort of case, police assume witnesses/victims are credible until proven otherwise-much like the over-arching legal system's innocent until proven guilty. I'll admit that my personal experience with "credible professional" sports massage therapists is practically none-existent, but scheduling private sessions at someone's residence via a personal instagram's direct message system seems somewhat sketchy to me. This could be perfectly normal I suppose, but it doesn't scream "credible professional" to me, which seems to be many people's assumption of all the accusers. My assumption is that I have so little information about them, I have no idea how credible they are, and that the different accusers probably have different degrees of credibility.

They could be reliable, but the cases also haven't gotten to trial. So, neither, they nor Watson, have been cross-examined. Sadly, I expect that could get very ugly, but would also likely be very revealing.

So my stance is, I don't like it, but I don't know. Given my lack of direct knowledge, I assume those that made the decisions have more info than me. Those that seem to want to form a lynch mob seem a little bit premature to me, and they were almost definitely relying on a lot of assumptions to get to their conclusion. They could end up being right, but they could also be wrong.

People making judgements out of a false sense of certainty irk me. The "there's 22 of them, they can't all be lying" argument is logically false. They might all be telling the truth, but the number is not concrete evidence. They literally all could be lying. Again, I'm not saying they are, but how could anyone on here possibly know with certainty?

The accusations should be taken seriously. The legal process is ongoing. At this point, I don't know that assuming guilt is any better than assuming innocence.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mitchschwartz71/status/1505162101291106311

Well said Schwartz


Be interesting to see if other players chime in.

I agree. The optics of it look VERY slimy.

I am a self defined lurker of this board and don't post very often, but I am a bit shocked by some of the responses by many of you regarding Watson the person..

Let's remember that everyone in this country is innocent until proven guilty. I am sure that has been advantageous for many of you in your lives. DeShaun has been ACCUSED of what many may consider a crime, but at the end of the day it is 22 womens word against his. I know that is thick. When there is 22 accusations the whole, where there is smoke there is fire, adage comes into play.

This Lawyer that is representing these women is a snake. He is out for fame, attention, and a big payday. It has been reported that he sought out more women to coerce them into filing a lawsuit against Watson, because they may have a case against him. Don't discount the tactics of this lawyer. He is looking for a payday, and notoriety. He has let these women believe they have a case against Watson. None of them, besides the initial, came forward until he sought them out.

DeShaun is not to be absolved from the things he did that are proven as fact. Many of you are attacking him because he is not taking responsibility. You don't take responsibility for something you did not, or feel like you did not do. That is admitting, or setting the perception of guilt.

There are lawyers on this board. There are fathers, there are women, and there are mothers. I understand your feelings. I really do. At the end of the day, we are a fan of the team. If Watson was guilty of these crimes, and it comes out that he is, I would have a different take on him as the person. Not the team. Our FO went into this going with the fact that he is innocent, because he has not been proven guilty in anyway. If that changes, maybe our stance does as well. I will say this though. You can't make me believe that we committed this much money, and these many assets to this guy unless we were sure he is good. We have to remember that many people have way more info than what the media is sharing with us. We are reliant on the media for information, the team has access to way more that has not been released yet.

I am a father of a 14 year old girl. I would not tolerate anyone behaving like this with her. I also understand perception and reality, and understand the difference between the two. Until the final truth comes out, we cannot condemn this man as guilty.

Again, 22 women is significant, but what is the actual reality of what happened? If I'm naked getting a massage, who knows how my body would respond? Is an erect penis in this situation deemed sexual misconduct? Again don't know details. Just sharing some thoughts.

Can you imagine if Watson plays like crap?
Worse than Mayfield. Haslam better sell he team.

Haslam already admits, by acquiring Watson, that he is fine with men sexually abusing women. He has no problem with it. The NFL is fine with it too. In fact, it basically encourages it, you get a pay raise like Watson.

I wonder what some of the Browns players think about the acquisition, those players that actually care about having a sexual predator on the team.

I am a Browns fan forever, but I will cheer the day Haslam sells the team.

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/20...e-for-deshaun-watson.html?outputType=amp

More than 1000 people donated to Rape Crisis Center because of this. It is triggering for a lot of people. Browns Reddit blew up yesterday about this. A lot of people quitting. A lot of people donating in Baker's name because they don't want CLE represented by a serial sex predator.

So something good is coming from all of this.

Deshaun Watson has declared his innocence since day 1 and his story has not changed since the story first broke. The Grand Jury also ruled that they did not have enough evidence to even say a crime committed. You are calling this man a sexual predator without evidence to prove it. It is a right in the Country as a citizen to be presumed innocent UNTIL proven guilty. The woman accusing Deshaun has had their day in criminal court and did not have the evidence to prove a crime was committed. Now they will have their day in a cival court and they do not have to provide enough evidence that a crime was committed just enough evidence that Deshaun was responsible for their pain or misfortune. It is a much lower bar than criminal court. The Browns have actually from reports been on campus in Clemson, spoke to women that was close to Watson in College. Their lawyers poured thru the evidence theirselves and have followed the procedures very closely. In other wards they have vetted Deshaun and his past as has the NFL and other teams. He has never had any wrong doings in his past before these accusations. He assured the Browns he is innocent and nothing like this he will ever do. So he has been an upstanding citizen in his past, he faces no criminal charges at this time, his story has never changed, and his past has been thoroughly vetted. Who are we to proclaim guilt or call him a predator with no facts?

I don't think it looks slimy. I would say the Ivy league boys are just smarter than Mitchell Schwartz. He sure sounds like he is jealous. He choose to leave Cleveland, He needs to shut up and get out of Cleveland's business.

This coming from the highest paid RT in the NFL

Rather Backpage is guilty or not, this is a very bad look.



I hope this part blows over soon. I could easily see protests at the stadium all year due to this. Oh well, they got their guy. Adult.

people with agendas, Rape crisis center really ?


So what of the 22 said he forced her down and put his penis in her without consent ?


your soul is full of hate and judgement. hate and judgement is from Satan himself to blind us from Gods forgiveness of sin and grants us grace to overcome sin and evil.


Prayer is a daily need.

Any of you who believe in God and judge on this , better look in the mirror . forgiveness is one of the most reverent words in the bible.

we are all of sin. to judge is a to sin

I'm not judging anybody. Just posting the crap I'm seeing. Bad look, you disagree?

don't post it and yes I agree what your doing is harming a fellow human being who is full of sin as we all all are being crucified by all sinners who sin.

no one knows what he has done. we know the court system has found him innocent. I also don't believe those in the court room can have the same judgement of God. but so say the words of those who judge .

22 women know what he has done and he has not been found innocent in civil court.

Pretty sure those 22 women know a lot more than you do.

Wow. Awfully judgmental for someone preaching people shouldnt judge, dont you think?

you do know that there are very many massage parlors being shut down because the woman do things for money because they WANT to ! so I may not know what happened with the Browns future Franchise QB, but I do know no one woman or man is not capable of such actions !

Actually he has not been found innocent. Just not enough evidence to prove a crime was committed. He is though considered innocent by law because he has yet to be found guilty. The civil trail does not determine guilt or innocence and has a much lower threshold. Instead of proving a crime was committed against these women they only have to prove his actions made some thing occur against a defendant. It is called the preponderance of evidence. Actually much difference than a criminal trail. If found responsible he will have to make restitution with the victim/s.

where am I being judgmental ?

Well, he didn't go to those kind of massage parlors, did he? If you think that people aren't capable of horrendous crimes, especially those against women, then you live in a very sheltered world.

You're trying really hard to make yourself feel better about rooting for a serial sex predator. Or you have no morality.

won't it be amusing coming back and re-reading all of these threads and posts once Watson and Haslem are hoisting up the Lombardi trophy?

I don't know what kind of massage parlors he went to. Do you know what ones he went to ? I live in a sheltered life ? lmao


sober up and read what I say and get rid of your [censored] attitude !

I do know the Browns vetted him very thoroughly. It has been said Deshaun's story has not changed once since the first accusation. He has never been accused of crimes previously. The FBI and Houston Grand Jury said no criminal charges. I think it is wrong to label him a sexual predator with no evidence of a crime. The law did not designate him a sexual predator.

Deisel, I'll post whatever I want. And you can save your sin/god talk too, I'm atheist, but you know that. I'm trying to keep it civil and not judge anybody, I suggest you do the same. And I'm damn sure going to post what the hell ever I want to post buddy. You can too.

Exactly..I have always thought of you as a friend and love how you post, pure example of different beliefs. not going to allow how I feel about you !

Maybe you should sober up. You're posting nonsense like you were there. Those 22 women know what happened. YOU DONT.

like I was there ? same as you ? do you know the 22 woman ?

Well if there is one thing we have a ton of experience with it is selecting QB's and character judgement, so there is that!

I consider you the same. We might bump head occasionally, but we've always been cool. And I haven't lied or held back on how I feel about this trade. Just trying to work through it myself, so I can feel good about it later. If it turns out DW is innocent/cleared, I'll also be one of the first to say I was wrong. But I won't get behind him being here until that point. As for the trade itself, taking the legal crap out, and assuming the cap goes way up, it's a great deal for us. Again, DW needs to prove it on the field, but everybody tells me he will... so I'll wait and see.

EDIT: Also, I really liked Baker as our QB, and I think they crapped on him during this when they didn't need to. It was classless.

Well if there is one thing we have a ton of experience with it is selecting the wrong QB's and character judgement assassination, so there is that!

Fixed it for ya!

LOL (I didnt say we were a good judge of character either lol)

Lex, if we look at that long list of Qb s ya know that jersey ! lol ! Seems the Browns couldn't get it right with the QB position.

And your point about character judgement. ugh ! we can discuss that for a week, but in every day life character judgement is a hit and miss no matter what aspect in life.

I don't have to be there. 22 women were. Shame on you for discounting all of those women. But, by all means, keep living in denial to make yourself feel better.

We use sports to get away from our daily challenges and yet it seems the sports outlet we use to forget about our daily challenges become greater challenges !

Dear goodness has it got to be so dang hard !

Hope in time all us fans of the same team can get a SB win in a way we can all be respectful of it !

All we can do is hope and stick together as the best fans in the NFL !

Well a day in the Muni lot may change that ! lol !!!

You don't have to be there, DW was acquitted by a grand jury.

The masseurs were hired from instagram, do you need someone to explain what type of masseurs you hire on instagram?

Let us just say that you don't hire physiotherapists by instagram.

The guy has a sex addiction, don't see any problem in hiring professionals to solve his problem.

[ don't have to be there. 22 women were. Shame on you for discounting all of those women. But, by all means, keep living in denial to make yourself feel better.]

Making myself feel better ? how can you say that ? How do you know how I feel emotionally ? you have no clue ! your making a point on how 22 woman can make this look false ! your pulling the same crap on me ! trying to make me feel I'm in the wrong and i'm not !

You one of those 22 ? Cause you sure are trying to pull the same crap ! I never discounted any of them !

Shame on you for discounting 22 women, and the crimes against them. You have to sleep tonight. How will your conscious feel knowing that all these women were sexually abused and you are "OK" with it. SHAME.

He hired the masseurs from Instagram, which is more or less the same has going into those kind of massage parlors.

A grand jury listened to the accusations and saw the proof and dismissed any crime, so DW didn't commit any crime, that is what we know, this is why we have a justice system.

The grand jury listened to the accusation and saw no crimes, you are now making assumption...

I see many masseurs advertising sexual services on Instagram, so I'm assuming that was what happened.

I will sleep fine as I do every night knowing there's a hell of a lot going on in this world then 22 woman and a QB.

A war in Ukraine concerns me more..

Gang violence among all our cities, inflation , there's a hell of a lot more then you know that my conscious has on me ..

your one who judges ! shame on you ! you know nothing about anything or anyone of us ...

I know that you are discounting the feelings of 22 women who were sexually abused by our new QB. And you are ok with that. Put down the booze and go to bed.

You're gross dude. You are willing to allow the sexual abuse of 22 women just so you can feel good on game day. Shame on you. This team's leadership has no morals and neither do you.

You are the one being gross. A grand jury saw the accusations and acquitted DW from any crimes. I have absolutely no problem with people paying for sex, with or without happy endings. Since sexual abuse is a crime, and DW was found innocent, he didn't commit any sexual abuse, that is one of the few things we know.

He wasn't paying anybody for sex. He was paying sports massage therapists for a sports massage. I tend to believe 22 women over some misogynist on a message board. You are a disgusting human who just seeks to sweep this guy's crimes under the rug so you can feel good about yourself.

They were not sports therapists, they were masseurs he hired through Instagram.

Do us all a favor, go to instagram and check what a masseurs is, and what they do, before you post any more nonsense.

You know that escorts also don't only provide company, right?

actually I'm drinking tea with lemon, due to the part I enjoy it !


I'm not okay with you telling me how I feel because you have no clue. again you use your agenda to tell everyone how we should feel like you.

I have 3 daughters who go to the games with me and they themselves are waiting to hear more. Unlike you they respect others opinions without having to degrade or insult a person's opinion or belief.

you have never been good with discussing things, you throw out you opinion and anyone who doesn't agree with you, you attack.

You can attack me all you want, because I don't care about you bias opinions.

You have been and always will be one of my least favorite posters. So carry on with your agenda.

Keep deluding yourself. How do you live with yourself. 22 women aren't liars. Go back under the rock you crawled out from under.

For the people that want to be informed.

Some troubling pieces for those that dont want to bother, I am leaving off any of the more descriptive crap...

The plaintiff immediately ended the massage and started to cry. After telling him to leave, Watson said "I know you have a career and a reputation, and I know you would hate for someone to mess with yours, just like I don't want anyone messing with mine."

Another lady:

She said he told her “I make a lot of massage therapists uncomfortable and it’s really hard for me to find someone who will meet my needs.”

Another lady:

The lawsuit claims the woman was “embarrassed” and “humiliated” as the player allegedly made several inappropriate advances, including demanding sexual acts before leaving the spa.

Another lady:

The lawsuit claims Watson told the woman not to talk about the appointment, which she considered a threat.

Another lady:

During the first appointment in September, the woman said Watson became aroused and asked her what she was going to do about it. She told Watson that his behavior was inappropriate.

She said she was afraid and wanted to end the session, but she is a single mother and the spa job was her only source of income. The session ended without further incident.

Another lady:

Watson told her not to be afraid to "touch him". She told him that she was not being paid to do that. Watson then responded that it was what he paid for. She declined and quickly ended the massage.

She said Watson only paid one-third of what he owed.

Another lady:

Watson quickly began aggressively dictating the massage. As she became more uncomfortable with being told to massage his buttocks, he allegedly told her made it clear that he could help, or hurt, her career.

Plaintiff began shaking from fear, as she worried what the repercussions of upsetting him could be.

Another lady:

She was uncomfortable but felt she could not afford to upset Watson so she complied.

So now you are accusing the grand jury of cover up and lying?

How about the testimonies of other clients?

Why don't you go to instagram and check the services provided by masseurs? Its pretty obvious, unless you think happy ending is the girl reading you a bed time story

No, I'm accusing you of being in denial to feel better about yourself. And also of being a mysogynist

this was posted by the Jaquars ? Just asking

Tell me you didnt read anything with out telling me you didn't read anything.

A mysogynist.... why would anyone think that?

You are the one failing to understand that paying for massages with happy endings is quite common, there is nothing misogynist about it.

I know you aren't bright enough to understand anything. So maybe go read the link LexDawg provided. If you can't even be bothered to do that, then I have nothing else to say. You are are just a low intel troll.

The grand jury had the opportunity to read the accusations and the defense, you are only posting a small part of the evidences provided. They looked at all the evidences and saw no crime. To my knowledge there were testimonies from other masseurs who acknowledge the sexual services provided, and also the testimonies of other clients.

That's why this cases go to a court of law

"I know you aren't bright enough to understand anything. So maybe go read the link LexDawg provided. If you can't even be bothered to do that, then I have nothing else to say. You are are just a low intel troll."

You are now resorting to insults, which only proves my point.

All this discussion would be solved if you took 2 minutes to go to instagram and look up for masseurs.

That's irrelevant to the facts of the case. 22 women don't lie. Only misogynists' do.

First, many werent masseuses. You are right, I only posted a small part of the evidence, there is a lot more but I doubt it will make him sound any better.

Were you in the grand jury?

by the way

"The person Buzbee describes as someone who coordinated Watson's massage sessions also was a fact witness, but pled the fifth throughout questioning on the advice of her attorney."

"Buzbee sent a transcript of the deposition, which included questions like, "You knew that Watson had a fetish to go to a massage and then try to convince the unsuspecting therapist to have sex with him, right?"

The only question her attorney advised she could answer was when she was asked if she knew a lot of Texans players. The witness replied, "Yes, I've worked with them for a long time.""

Neither of us were, but one of us has a problem dealing with discussing the issue. You keep parroting 'grand jury grand jury' but it doesn't change any of the information does it?

Reading just these two conversations is rather telling.

Person 1: "guys do this is disgusting"
Person 1: "I am normally the one that coordinates his therapists when I cant make it (due to this issue actually)"

Second Message

The whole damn thing I guess...

I keep on referring to the grand jury, because contrary to you, they had access to all evidence, not part of it, and for sure they had access to information that led them to reach the verdict.

Posting part of the evidences, which we don't even know if they are really evidences, changes nothing.

This case went to a grand jury, its not being judged by you or me, we have no competence.

If you were a member of the jury, you could shed a better light on what happened. I imagine you are not, you are just a Baker fan pissed DW will be the new QB.

Real quick, what did the jury find him 'innocent' of?

Any criminal actions, i.e. any actions that could constitute a crime, which was what he was being acused.

You has a member of the grand jury should know this better.

No, not any criminal actions. Only the charges which were brought, which are secret and not known. So for example if he had been charged with rape but he only sexually harassed a woman the grand jury would not indict him. If he were charged with rape and the grand jury didn't feel there was enough evidence for a possible conviction there would not be a trial either. It takes a super majority to indict, so if there are four dissenters you will not get an indictment.

Consider this hypothetical situation:

You have a daughter in her 20's who is a legit licensed massage therapist.
You are out at a bar and run into watson. You guys start chatting it up and he asked if you know a good massage therapist he can hire to come out to his house.

Do you say, "Hey yea, my daughter is. Here's her phone number."
Or do you say, "No, I don't really get massages."

I am definitely saying, Sorry, I don't know anyone.
Would anybody recommend their daughter to him?

Nope.

So here’s another hypothetical, more relevant to the case:

You as a father find out that your daughter was marketing herself as an unlicensed massaged therapist on IG, and willingly met up with a NFL QB at his home or a hotel room. What do you think she’s doing?

I really didn’t want to go here, but damn people seem to want to believe the best in some people in the worst in others.

Everybody will swear up and down that “my daughter/son would NEVER <insert situation>”

Yea, it was your daughter/son who did that.

That’s somebody daughters who’s all up on P-Hub. That’s somebody’s daughter who decided to make an only fans account. That’s somebody’s daughter who decided to make a secret IG account that way her parents didn’t find out about it. That’s somebody’s daughter who decided to market themselves as an unlicensed massage therapist. That’s somebody’s daughter who decided to marry some dude 20+ years her age for money. That’s somebody’s daughter who falsely accused an athlete to try and get a settlement check. That’s somebody’s daughter who decided to get with the one dude you wanted her not to. That’s somebody’s daughter selling her farts on the internet. That’s somebody’s daughter who got sloppy drunk at the club and went home with some random dude.

Like please, we need to stop acting as if women are just innocent flowers in absolutely every single situation. I get it that it’s our instinct as fathers to believe that our daughters could/would never put themselves in such disgraceful situations. But take a step back from the parent perspective and look at the big picture here: somebody’s a daughter did that. Willingly, consensually, and happily.

Once again, as I’ve said a thousand times, Watson is a certified creep. But let’s stop acting like there aren’t millions of women all of the world marketing themselves to said creeps.

No matter how we look at it, being a creep isn’t illegal. Marketing yourself to creeps isn’t illegal. 22 accusations says you take the accusations seriously, but believe the evidence. A grand jury decided there wasn’t enough evidence to charge Watson. Watson has maintained his innocence and is actively fighting the civil cases instead of settling, as of now.

If we’re gonna convict people based on he said/she said, I wonder how many dudes on this board would be sitting in a jail cell right now.

Maybe more relevant to the case but less relevant to me. These women are not members of the cleveland browns, watson is. I am not deciding if I want to root for them or like them. I am trying to decide about watson.

Are you saying all 22 women are unlicensed massage therapists on IG?
If they are and were prostituting themselves, I still think watson is a disgusting individual.

If all 22 were not, then what about them?

Trust me Swish. Don’t take that road.

What we have seen so far is bad enough. To dismiss these witnesses because they maybe selling (what we think but don’t know) shady services doesn’t give anyone a right to be slimy and demanding something. Being a mega famous and well paid QB in the NFL comes with responsibilities. He shouldn’t even contact them or invite them home/be at a hotel room in the first place. That’s the crucial part of all criticism apart from his creepy behavior.

After getting $230m he has the money to pay them and move on. $5m or whatever it will cost, see it as a speeding ticket and accept that you drive to fast at the wrong place.

i answered your hypothetical. i think its strange that you couldn't answer mine.

i have to because it works both ways. being slimy isn't illegal. if you're gonna say "he shouldn't <insert>" doesn't that mean a woman shouldn't <insert>? this isn't a "what was she wearing" situation here. i'm not victim blaming. that's why i have no issues going down this road. selling shady services means you know there's people out there willing to buy. looking for shady services means you know there's people out there willing to sell. there's a whole lot of consent and mutual agreements going down right now.

bro, if i didn't think i did anything wrong, why would i pay up? he's maintaining his innocence. if you are innocent in a he said/she said - which is currently what this is right now - are you saying you would bite the bullet? settling comes with the unwritten rule of admitting guilt. you're asking Watson to do something you wouldn't do if you were in this current situation.

again, take a step back and view it from different perspectives. that's what i try to do. if people want to call me a certified creep for contacting massage therapist on IG, i gotta live with that. but i'm not about to bite the bullet and admit to sexual assault if i didn't sexually assault anyone. i'm not about to settle the case if that comes with the unofficial admission of guilt if i'm not guilty.

if Watson is found liable in these cases, then i'm with you 100%. but until then....all we can do is wait for the facts to come out.

Didn't think you wanted an actual response as the answer is self evident and alluded to in my post.

j/c,...

Wow! I never realized just how many (self) righteous people come to post comments here.

aight man.

all imma say is that atleast im willing to engage in you guys hypotheticals and not dodge the questions. you guys ask the questions, i answer them. i gave you a straight up response, you didn't. if this is how the convo is gonna go, i'm not interested in discussing this aspect of the situation any further.

Hey buddy, some people don't consider what they don't know. They only care about what they think they know. It really stands out when they start throwing out hypothetical situations in an effort to bolster their position.

Don't waste your time.

If someone (woman or man) is on IG marketing themselves as an unlicensed massage therapist. My assumption would be that they are soliciting money for sex.
If it was my daughter, we'd be having a sit down discussion.

It seems that some but not all of the 22 were doing that.
For those that were, assuming that is there choice and they are doing it freely of their own will, then I don't care that they are doing it. For those women, I don't have a very high opinion of them but my opinion of them doesn't affect me, and I am pretty sure my opinion doesn't affect them. For watson participating in that, I don't have a very high opinion of him. Again, I am pretty sure he doesn't care about my opinion of him, but it does affect me and my enjoyment watching the Browns.

For those that were in it to legitimately give a massage, I feel bad for them. No person (male of female) should be the recipient of sexual misconduct. This significantly lowers my opinion of watson even further.

I think a lot of people are focused on if what he did was legal/illegal. Is he guilty of a crime. I don't know exactly what he did, I don't know exactly what the law says about what he is accused of doing, I am not personally involved in any of those cases, and I am neither a cop nor a prosecutor. Should he bor shouldn't he be convicted of a crime doesn't mean much to me.

The impact on me of what watson did/didn't do revolves around my fandom of the Cleveland Browns. Now that he is a Cleveland Brown, how will having him as our Qb, the face of this franchise affect my love for this team and my enjoyment watching them play and rooting for a Browns victory. I don't expect a team of choirboys. But I do want a team that I can be proud of, that I can enjoy rooting for, and that I derive pleasure from their victory. I live in Charlotte, NC. Yesterday, I was walking my dog at the park and used my Cleveland Browns leash. I was actually a little embarrassed to have anyone see it. 0-16 sucked. 1-31 was miserable. But through all that, I never felt embarrassed by this team.

The hypothetical I offered up was to get people to be honest with themselves about their opinion of watson. If you truly feel that he is innocent, then you should have no hesitation recommending your daughter as a massage therapist to him.

Swish - I'm not caught up on all the hypotheticals and not really part of that discussion.

I can tell you that if there are women that Watson met with who are non-licensed massage therapists that are implying or providing happy endings - I have zero problem with that. I don't even think that is all that slimy - pro athlete, no time for a girlfriend, just wanting to scratch an itch? I can live with that. The numbers are a bit of a red flag - I think I have read that the total number of women identified is over 50? But if they were all consensual agreements, I have no issue.

The problem is that is not the case - and while I can accept that there is a good chance some of the 22 fall into this category and are band wagoning - that doesn't explain or deflect the licensed massage therapists that most definitely don't offer rub n tug. Their stories are 100% credible. Their stories appear corroborated with seeking advice on how to handle things after the incidents. Their stories are consistent with sex abuse which rarely gets prosecuted because it's so hard to prove in a court of law. Hell just read the SI article about the women's interviews with the NFL where they all felt like the NFL was victim blaming.

There are a lot of good takes out there - sadly there are a lot of over reactions and there are a lot of people 100% deflecting and suggesting that all these women are a bunch of whores and freeloaders trying to trap a famous athlete.

My daughter is a lawyer, not a massage therapist. Why would I recommend he go to my daughter for a massage in the unlikely event I ever spoke to Watson or he to me asking if I knew where he could get a good massage?

LOL...to play your game, if some guy who was mostly a stranger to me starting asking where he could get a massage, I'd probably tell him no and go start talking to someone else.

Someone correct me if I am wrong - there was no jury that found Watson innocent of anything. . . . . my understanding is that the decision is based on whether to prosecute. Not being prosecuted and being found innocent in cases that are exceedingly hard to prove is not the same thing.

It also sounds like this whole thing started when 1 of the 22 accusers was calling Deshuan and tried to extort $30,000 or she was going to go public with a consensual act. Deshaun took this to his lawyer. At the lawyers advice they encouraged the accuser to go to the police. Only then did the original accuser go to the police. It was after that moment the accuser got a lawyer and they reached out and encouraged other women to join the compliant.

I know I have heard time and time again that 22 women can't be lying. Well the whole thing started as an extortion plea. Makes more sense now why the grnd jury found no crime to indict and take to trial.

j/c,....

In America one is >>>assumed<<< innocent, until proven quilty.

[Disclaimer] ... does not apply to the NFL penile system.

Edit: the law is like the goal post and should not be moved.

A person doesn't have to prove their innocence. You are innocent until proven guilty.

If I can't offer proof, it isn't up to me or you to determine guilt. You or I may have feelings, but feelings don't count.

Don't be such a concrete thinker




Good point, I'll give you that one

You are talking about in the eyes of the law.

As an individual I can look at the facts and form an opinion. So can you - or you can hide behind your last statement if you choose.

The law found OJ Simpson not guilty - which is two steps more than Watson - but overwhelmingly most of America thought of him as a murderer.

The Law is an ass. It is limited. And as I just posted in another thread sex abuse is notoriously bad area of prosecution.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/busi...ms-face-emotional-physical-consequences/

Less than 1/3 of rape is reported.
Less than 6% leads to arrest.
Less than 1% gets a conviction.

Maybe all those 94% were lying in your eyes?

99% with many of the posters here... j/s

Deshaun Watson, “innocent until proven guilty”
by CLEVELAND FROWNS on MARCH 19, 2022
http://www.clevelandfrowns.com/2022/03/deshaun-watson-innocent-until-proven-guilty/

Regarding the Browns having signed the superstar quarterback who has been sued by 22 women—but cleared by a grand jury—for alleged sexual assault:

First, this is absolutely not to excuse any grown adult for allowing their sense of well-being to rise or fall with the fortunes of the Cleveland Browns.

Second, of course, countless crimes go unpunished in this nation every day, for many bad and inexcusable reasons, especially when they’re committed by wealthy and powerful people. So yes, it is to some extent unsatisfactory to simply say “innocent until proven guilty” with respect to Deshaun Watson, as true and important as that principle is.

But about the 22 ladies who’ve sued Deshaun Watson for having sexually assaulted them, folks should consider not only that a grand jury refused to indict Watson based on these accusations and whatever evidence there was to support them. This is remarkable in itself because sexual-assault cases where more than one alleged victim is accusing the defendant of the same thing are generally considered to be low-hanging fruit for prosecutors.

But what is even more remarkable about these accusations is their timing, as they came in the wake of a flood of press coverage over Watson wanting to force his way out of Houston—based at least in part on the increasingly prevalent perception that the Texans owners are racists—despite having several years left on what was at the time one of the most lucrative deals ever given to a quarterback.



It is well documented that most of the Texans locker room (along with many other current and former players league-wide) was enraged in 2018 when then-owner (since deceased) Bob McNair — who already had “a questionable history of racially insensitive comments,” as one 2017 report puts it — infamously doubled down on his criticism of black players taking a knee for social justice by saying that he “can’t have the inmates running the prison.” And Watson was also upset in January of 2021 that the Texans didn’t hire one of the two qualified black men who were identified as the two best candidates by a search firm that the Texans hired to help fill their GM candidacy.

The “resulting discord” that this GM search caused within the Texans organization led to a piece in the Washington Post titled, “Deshaun Watson is taking a stand against disingenuous NFL owners,” touting the QB as having sparked “a player awakening that owners should acknowledge and respect rather than trivialize the men who enliven the sport.” In this piece, the Texans organization is described as “dysfunctional,” “particularly unstable,” and characteristic of “the NFL’s preset dehumanization.” Watson, on the other hand, is described as “thinking deeply about systemic inequality” and “want[ing] to be as far away from the Texans as he can get.”

It wasn’t until after these headlines about Watson wanting out of Houston that the first of the sexual assault accusations surfaced, all brought by women represented by the same lawyer, Tony Buzbee, who reportedly lives 300 feet down the street from current Texans owner Cal McNair.

It’s bad enough for the NFL plantation owners when star college QBs like John Elway or Eli Manning refuse to sign with teams that draft them. So imagine how the McNairs must have felt about a young black superstar quarterback, who was already beloved in Houston after having played there for several years, leveraging his star power to force his way out of town after having just signed a pricey contract extension — and how much worse that Watson was doing this based on accusations that the Texans owners are racists whom he could no longer stand playing for.

This was a colossal business and public relations crisis for the McNairs that conveniently happened to evaporate as the sensational accusations against Watson surfaced. Then all of a sudden everyone was supposed to believe that this young man who had always displayed high character and leadership in rising to stardom as an NFL quarterback and who is surely one of the last men on earth who’d need to pay for sex or otherwise force his way into it was some kind of sex-crazed brute who’d assaulted dozens of women. Nevermind also that the sex-crazed black brute is a well-worn racist trope.

I can’t say that Watson is innocent, and it’s doubtful that solid proof will ever come out affirming one way or the other; and this being the Browns I of course I can’t say I expect his tenure in Cleveland to end in anything but a heretofore unfathomable conflagration of disappointment and despair. But the folks who are saying that they’re not going to root for the team anymore or who otherwise want to denounce the organization for having signed a quarterback who has been sued by 22 women—but cleared by a grand jury—for alleged sexual assault, should at least consider the extremely suspect timing and circumstances behind these accusations.

I have seen that tin foil hat conspiracy. The gigantic flaw in the idea that this is some contrived conspiracy to throw shade on Watson ... there is no debate or argument what Watson was doing. And we're supposed to believe that Watson's teammates and Owner knew what he was engaged in - then went out and found these random women and convinced them lie. What a 100% crock.

Occam's Razor. Not only does it help with implications on what the "story" is regards the 22 accusations. It most definitely tells us where to lean on this [censored] conspiracy theory.

From reading the link of what the accusers testified, no where did I see him force anybody to do anything. He suggested it, and from reading the testimony they declined. What he was doing was no right, but I don't see how this is made out to be sexual abuse. It surely is not rape, and there was nothing violent about it. The dude is probably a sex addict, which is a mental problem that can be fixed. I believe he was wrong bu suggesting they do something they didn't want to, but in all the accounts listed, most spoke their part, and then left. None of the testimonies listed said he forced them to do anything.

I am not saying he is a saint, and did nothing wrong, but the way many here are speaking of this, you would think he was trapping and forcing them into sexual acts. From what I read, it was suggestions that were declined, and the women immediately left. According to their own testimony, the sexual act never happened.

Placing your erection, unwanted, into another woman's hand is what then? No big deal according to you as long as he doesn't do anything once his offer is declined?

I mean with all these hypitheticals being thrown out, it seems your hypothetical is that if a man places his erection into your wife or daughters hands but doesn't rape them, it's all good.

Did Watson learn anything from this? If he didn't, I could see him keep doing what he's doing, get caught and have to miss some serious time. It just seems like such a Browns thing that would happen.

The fact that we just traded for a “top 5 QB” and this is basically the only conversation we and anyone else is having about it pretty much tells me it was a gigantic mistake. Here we are, probably the most divided I’ve ever seen the fan base and local media. People walking away and honestly, they may be replaced by new fans in time but I don’t see them coming back.

There’s a million proverbs and allegories and fables and stories that basically outline the same message: There are things that you can do that may give you everything you’ve ever wanted in this world that simply aren’t worth the price. It’s the devils bargain. We may indeed win a Super Bowl with Watson… I just don’t think I’d be able to really enjoy it.

I know every team is made up of mercenaries but there are lines, it’s not all relative, you can’t unsee or unknow at a certain point. A team represents a city and ultimately the kinds of triumph we want to embody. Im too old to go back on the stuff I truly believe about how people should treat other people. Short of Watson doing an about face and truly seeking to properly rectify this and change (and my ability to actually believe it’s sincere) I just can’t support the team with an unrepentant beast leading the team. It’s not about being sanctimonious, it’s about being a good person. If you have no interest in being a good person in the world, I don’t want anything to do with you. I definitely don’t want to see you get away with (much less incredibly rewarded) while you seek to only escape justice and throw mud on your victims. It saddens me tremendously that MY team is the one to reward that person. I’m done.

Browns trade for QB Deshaun Watson
Watson has been selected to three Pro Bowls (2018-20) and led the NFL in passing yards in 2020 with 4,823

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-trade-for-qb-deshaun-watson

The Cleveland Browns and Houston Texans have made the following trade:

Browns receive:
QB Deshaun Watson

2024 5th round pick

Texans receive:
2022 1st round pick

2023 1st round pick

2023 3rd round pick

2024 1st round pick

2024 4th round pick

Watson has been selected to three Pro Bowls (2018-20) and led the NFL in passing yards in 2020 with 4,823. He has recorded the highest completion percentage in NFL history (67.8 percent) among all players with at least 1,500 passing attempts. Originally a first-round pick by Houston in 2017, Watson has appeared in 54 career games and has completed 1,186 of his 1,748 passes for 14,539 yards with 104 touchdowns, 36 interceptions and a 104.5 rating. He has added 1,677 rushing yards with 17 touchdowns. Watson helped Clemson win the 2016 National Championship and won the Davey Brien Award as the top NCAA QB in 2015 and 2016.

Dee and Jimmy Haslam:

"We spent a tremendous amount of time exploring and investigating the opportunity to trade for Deshaun Watson. We are acutely aware and empathetic to the highly personal sentiments expressed about this decision. Our team's comprehensive evaluation process was of utmost importance due to the sensitive nature of his situation and the complex factors involved. We also understand there are still some legal proceedings that are ongoing and we will respect due process. It was pivotal that we, along with Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski, meet with Deshaun to have a straightforward dialogue, discuss our priorities, and hear directly from him on how he wants to approach his career on and off the field. He was humble, sincere, and candid. In our conversations, Deshaun detailed his commitment to leading our team; he understands and embraces the hard work needed to build his name both in the community and on the field. Those in-depth conversations, the extensive evaluation process, his dedication to being a great teammate and devotion to helping others within the NFL, within the community, and through his charitable initiatives provided the foundation for us to pursue Deshaun. We are confident in Deshaun and excited about moving forward with him as our quarterback and supporting his genuine and determined efforts."

Executive Vice President of Football Operations and General Manager Andrew Berry:

"We look forward to having Deshaun as our starting quarterback. We have done extensive investigative, legal and reference work over the past several months to provide us with the appropriate information needed to make an informed decision about pursuing him and moving forward with him as our quarterback. Deshaun has been among the very best at the position and he understands the work needed to re-establish himself on and off the field in Cleveland. We are confident that he will make positive contributions to our team and community as we support his return to football."

Head Coach Kevin Stefanski:

"Our organization did a tremendous amount of background on Deshaun. We understand the concerns and questions that exist but are confident in the extensive work Andrew and his staff have done to feel confident about him joining our organization. It was important for us to meet with Deshaun in person as part of our team's evaluation process, we had a candid conversation regarding his approach to coming into our organization and community. I'm looking forward to the opportunity to coach Deshaun, he is ready to put in the hard work needed to help our team improve and make a positive impact in our community."

LMAO.

What a bunch of marketing BS. But it sure does beat the truth - "We don't care about the accusations or what his character is, we just wanna win"

Inside the Deshaun Watson deal
Posted by Mike Florio on March 20, 2022, 12:28 PM EDT
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/03/20/inside-the-deshaun-watson-deal/
The Browns were out of the Deshaun Watson sweepstakes until they dug extra deep in the couch cushions of Jimmy Haslam’s Cleveland steamship.

So how much money will they be paying Watson? We’ve gotten our eyes on the details, per a source with knowledge of the contract.

Here’s the breakdown, which is as simple as it gets:

1. Signing bonus: $44.965 million, fully guaranteed.

2. 2022 base salary: $1.035 million, fully guaranteed.

3. 2023 base salary: $46 million, fully guaranteed.

4. 2024 base salary: $46 million, fully guaranteed.

5. 2025 base salary: $46 million, fully guaranteed.

6. 2026 base salary: $46 million, fully guaranteed.

Rarely if ever has a deal looked so clear and clean. No games, no fluff. He gets $46 million each and every year. Each year, the relative impact on the cap will shrink, because the total spending limit will keep going up and up and up.

As previously reported, there’s no signing bonus forfeiture or voiding of future guarantees based on the existing allegations against Watson. If he’s suspended by the league, the guarantees remain.

And the current structure minimizes the financial impact of a suspension, given that he’d lose only $60,882 for each game missed. If, for some reason, a suspension doesn’t happen until 2024, the Browns surely would convert most of the $46 million to a guarantee, dropping the salary to the minimum and once again minimizing the cost of a suspension.

It seems like a too-convenient loophole, but plenty of players and teams have done it in the past. The league presumably could impose a separate fine aimed at reversing the impact of the obvious manipulation of the consequences of a suspension.

If my hypothetical wife or daughter willingly agreed to work on an athlete's glutes and groin, I would regrettably expect that they would come into contact with the adjacent anatomy.

It's a situation filled with hard to interpret signals (from an evolutionary perspective) and/or autonomic responses. I know we like to act like we're noble and upstanding, but if an attractive female is putting her hands near a healthy hetero male's intimate area, there's going to be a physiological response.

To me the question is did he force clearly unwanted sexual contact or was there only incidental contact that made some women uncomfortable and consensual sex with others? There are a nearly infinite number of "degrees" between those different scenarios.

There's also the whole issue of perception. It's hard to know the intentions of another person's actions without clear communication. People can't read each other's thoughts.

For me, a licensed professional should make clear any expectations before getting in the room. If the client is told there will be no sex before there is contact, there is no room for misinterpretation/"confusion"/too intimidated to say anything scenarios.

If this was clearly stated before Watson did something unwanted, he deserves to be punished. If he forced anyone, he deserves to be punished. If the women lied about what happened, they deserve to be punished.

I still don't know what actually happened. We'll probably never "know" what actually went down. Or maybe we will.

We have Bengal fans and even a Steeler fan who post on this board. Being here has nothing to do with supporting this team. I will be here to watch the circus.


If you think refusing to support a sexual predator makes you "holier than thou" I think you have a warped perception of what that means. It's far different than having a basic minimum threshold for human decency. As the Watson story unfolds I will be laughing by watching you all fall more desperately flailing making excuses for his treatment of women. Not only don't I like what the team is doing, I refuse to support it. And I'm not going anywhere Skippy.

That was fantastic.

Thank you for posting and making my Sunday.

Well sure - and but that wasn't the scenario or the question. But you go ahead and keep deflecting.

It's funny - in my 100's of massages and stretches and manipulations by registered massage therapists I have never once ever had my junk incidentally come into contact with any part of the therapist. Maybe I am doing it wrong?

Neither - in all this time have I placed my erection into the hands of the therapist.

Like I said - feel free to support Watson. No worries. Continue to try to find some gray in the situation - no worries. Keep trying to contrive false situations and avoid the question actually posed, if you really need to.

What a terrible agenda! Supporting rape victims. Just when you thought it couldn't get any lower...... it does.

I don't actually agree with this perspective - it's overly conclusive and judgmental. But here's a view from outside of fandom:

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/19/cleveland-browns-never-live-down-deshaun-watson

Maybe this is how it goes after so many years of getting kicked around and picked on. If you’re a laughingstock loser for long enough, you start thinking like the teams that have long bullied you around. You lose your pluck and your grit and you turn a little bit colder because that’s what everyone else does, right? You convince yourself that winning is all that matters to everyone else, too, making all decisions in shameless pursuit of wins feel defensible.

Right?

You trash your own people, smear them on the way out and try to trade them with some anonymous middle finger about childish behavior. You trade for a quarterback who was accused by 22 women of sexual harrassment and assault and pretend that a criminal nonindictment from a grand jury is the same thing as an exoneration. You reward that same player who acted like the entire thing was just an inconvenience for him. How about we ask some of the people impacted by his behavior how it feels to carry pepper spray to work now or choose outfits meant to deter unwanted sexual contact? (Sports Illustrated’s independent reporting uncovered corroborating evidence for one plaintiff’s account, and another woman who isn’t suing shared the details of her massage therapy session with Deshaun Watson as a way of publicly supporting the plaintiffs.)

Not only did Watson get a financial windfall from Friday’s absolute farce of a signing, but the Browns, according to our Albert Breer, structured the contract in a way that would minimize his fines if the NFL suddenly grows a conscience and suspends him.

The Browns are never going to live down trading for Watson, to whom they immediately gave a five-year, fully guaranteed contract extension. They groveled at such volume, oozed such desperation, that Watson couldn’t ignore them, even after he’d removed them from his list of finalists. Congratulations to a club that now becomes the fifth-best team in its conference at best. It cost them only their souls.

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What could Watson have said in those meetings that not only eased their concerns (L-O-L) about the nature of the lawsuits filed against him, but also forced Cleveland to perform cartwheels in the street just to get his pen on paper? What kind of miracle happened inside those four walls?

The truth is that the Browns didn’t care. The Saints didn’t care. The Falcons didn’t care. The Panthers didn’t care. None of those teams for a moment saw the irony in their auditioning for Watson instead of the other way around. A handful of Pro Bowls went a long way, apparently. A down market for quarterbacks turned them all into nicotine fiends without a pack in sight, looking for old cigarette butts to smoke on the sidewalk.

Once upon a time, Cleveland was a lost franchise but in a way we could all respect and admire. The team chugged in the mud, season after season, making comical pratfalls in the process but remaining endearingly The Browns. Maybe they had a lot of quarterbacks, enough that you could fill the full backside of an adult extra-large jersey, but they had fans who loved every one of them to pieces. Have you ever talked to someone from Cleveland about Kelly Holcomb? Did you ever for a second listen to the completely baseless momentary excitement for Jason Campbell? Brandon Weeden? Colt McCoy? Tyrod Taylor? Robert Griffin III? So many diehards believed in all of them, the way we might believe in new presidents or spiritual leaders. It was part of the entire milieu, knowing that it may not work out but willingly going along for the ride anyway, hoping it would all turn out fine.


Did you watch the press conference interim coach Mike Priefer gave in January 2021 after Cleveland won its first playoff game in decades, during the moment when he thanked the fans? He nearly cried. He grew up a Browns fan. He understood what it meant against the backdrop of all the decades of losing. What it meant to have a team of homegrown boys come out and whip the Steelers.

Somewhere along the way, that became not good enough. Not fast enough. The entire operation turned into some callous shadow corporation plotting and scheming. They lost what it meant to become the Browns, and, over the course of the next few months, while they lift Watson up on some kind of dais despite 22 civil cases still pending, they’ll lose whatever ounce of genuine goodwill was remaining.

This isn’t a closeted defense of Baker Mayfield, who needed to get better on the field. This isn’t some kind of empty saber rattling for clicks. This is just an acknowledgement of a damn shame. Just a moment when the crushing reality of the NFL sets in; when you wonder how the whole operation could ever act in fans’ best interests when its primary concern is passing along booze and gambling ads, all while tolerating enough unsavory behavior to drown out the reason we all came together around it in the first place.


Maybe some of us, and, again, we’re talking to the Browns’ front office here, just reach a point where the losses drown out the last bit of common sense we have. Maybe we all sell out at one time or another. Maybe our bosses strong-arm us into this kind of behavior and we put up with it because we all have mouths to feed.

That sounds better than the truth about what happened Friday.

Right?

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/03/29/f...on-inappropriate-behavior-not-in-lawsuit

And here's the actual events that are alleged. So lets not talk about "incidental" contact.

Nonsense? seems like making bold accusations of reputable and credible women would fall under that category, would it not? This is Watson's first accuser. Are you trying to say she is some sleazy sex worker on Instagram?

Her web site.

https://www.vagaro.com/ashleysolislmt

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Yeah, having even the lowest threshold of human decency from someone makes you self righteous. More excuses for the inexcusable.

If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

j/c...

You know how it works. "Well he didn't sexually assault all of his massage therapists so he must not have sexually assaulted any of them."

Which sounds much more stupid when you break it down that way.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone."

We are all uncut stones in need of polish.

And should have the Cleveland Browns make you the highest paid player in the NFL by dismissing the word of 22 women instead. It's funny how the very same people only say these kind of things when it's someone they choose to support. Those they don't? They'll call them every name in the book.

Those are the alleged events.

I've never claimed that incidental contact was the actual event.

There's as much hard evidence for the one as there is for the other, which is basically nothing.

Even in the title of that link they have the honesty to call it what it is, a "story."

Personal testimony is not particularly reliable evidence.

There are my feelings towards the case, and there are the facts of the case. My feelings are it's all horrible. Factually, I don't know. Many seem to be presenting their feelings as facts. I'm just pointing out that what people believe could be wrong.

Look friend, the first person Watson thanked (publicly) after his acquittal from the GJ ... was Jesus Christ who will judge us all, and if he can forgive him, then who am I (or any other neutral party) to judge him?

Yeah, that's what convicts do in prison to gain sympathy and impress the parole board to. Claim they turned to Jesus.

The myth about Due diligence and a good explanation on why the Grand Jury not indicting means diddly squat.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/03/18/deshaun-watson-trade-due-diligence-myth


Only 1.6% of cases where sexual assault was reported to police ever made it to court.

“several of the women who filed criminal complaints also sat in a room together at the Harris County Criminal Justice Center, ready to provide testimony, but only one was called in front of the grand jury,”

I answered the question and then went to another possible scenario. I never said it was the actual scenario. There is no more actual evidence for either scenario than the other.

Have you ever had treatment for a pulled groin muscle? There are "standard" massages and there are "sports" massages. Have you ever been a professional athlete?

All the anecdotal experiences people are bringing to the discussion aren't very helpful for this particular scenario. They're different situations.

We don't know what actually happened in these specific situations.

I'm sorry if my speculation on possible scenarios triggers you. I'm not presenting them as facts. I grind problems down from every angle to get a handle on them. Plenty of people seem to have the Watson's the worst angle covered.

We as a collective fan base have tossed a QB under the best for things like social media posts and speeding tickets, I think being in the position to get 22 accusations from women wouldn't be shocking.

Not when they think he can bring them a SB. Then everything changes. Hell, they get irate about changing the name of the Indians. Putting a logo on the Browns helmet. Ben was a scum bag. But now? It's all quite obvious. It's not about what someone does. It's about who they are.

Those are words for YOU to live by, not to throw at OTHERS(like a stone) to chastise them.

That's the best they can come up with to get people to ignore the obvious.

That's my quarterback.

You can have him.

If Watson gets hurt and cant play for a year does he still get paid?
Can we cut him?
Can we trade him?

Ahhhh. You think you triggered me. Bless you. But thanks, I got a laugh out of all this at least.

Every media outlet i read is shaming and blasting browns for the trade based on moral ideals....dont think rodger isnt listening...he wont want the negative PR the browns are getting....it wouldnt surprise me one bit he doesnt drop a 1 year suspension.

j/c...



Full document here...

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132-deshaun-watson-original-answer

well, i just read it.

wonder who else did. thread got kinda quiet.

anybody who speaks legalese, can you explain what "Mr. Watson request a jury trial" means?

I am sure there were band wagoners who jumped on this - and that's mentioned in this.

Wanting a Jury trial? Seems like strong arm tactics to me. No-one invoked the law and courts more than Trump, I don't think every time he did that he was in the right.

As for the thread went quiet for 20 minutes as if that was like people being chased away? LOL. I thought you were better than that.

why do you guys keep bring up trump?

sigh, for the record, trump settled out of court a lot. also, he has 5 kids by 3 different women, accused of sexual harassment/assault god knows how many times, paid off a porn star he cheated with while married to his 3rd wife, and yet not only became president, but even more people voted for him in 2020.

its mind boggling how america can hold an NFL QB to a hire standard than the freaking POTUS, but lemme stop before this thread gets moved to PP.

you only want to consider one side and not the other. i thought you were better than that, as well. but i guess we're both surprising each other lately.

You also realize that his first accuser only went to the police at Watson and his lawyers request! They started calling him in January 2021 and was trying to extort $30,000 from him for a consensual encounter. She wanted paid or she was going to expose him for the act. Although, she herself on a recorded phone conversation even called the act consensual. This was Watson's lawyers main defense. There is a youtube video from a Houston news station. The news station's legal council predicted the grand jury decision because of this evidence. Also, most of the other women were contacted by the first clients lawyers. I am not saying they are lying because I do not have all the facts. But, the extortion is a bad look and it seems very fishy the number of accusers that jumped into the suit only after contacted by first accusers lawyers.

So what are we looking at here, Milk Man? Are these court documents? Watson's official response to the charges? Not understanding how a guy named Real Xavier P has this info, but I haven't seen it elsewhere. That doesn't mean I couldn't have missed it, but you would think Watson's team - and the Browns - would have it on blast to media outlets everywhere.

Why did I bring up trump? because you made a reference to something that Trump has done which is seek to take things to court. It does not mean that Watson is guilty or not guilty. It's a good reference point whether you want to admit it or not. It's got nothing to do with his wife or anything else regards his family - his whole life Trump has used the courts as a way to strong arm to get his way or to silence people who claim he wronged them. And no one wants the QB to have higher standards than the POTUS - where on earth di you get that from? Not from me.

And no - I don't want to consider just one side. And I don't use a 20 minute pause in comments to try and suggest that the "other side" have been stumped.

But there is a lot to this situation - and much of it is being dismissed out of hand by some, which I'll continue to highlight. Here's what I just wrote in the Baker thread that highlights I am not all on one side or the other


IN response to that Bull just suggested that because the 22 share the same lawyer somehow it's questionable. . . that completely ignores how the legal process works in this country. If it was unusual or unprecedented ... that'd raise flags. But - for example - the 33 of Bill Cosby's accusers all signed with the same lawyer. It's just how it's done.

Court documents.

The documents were originally reported in/by Law and Crime.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132-deshaun-watson-original-answer

It was more about the lawyer that they share than that they share a lawyer.

And that lawyer happens to be neighbors with the owner of the Texans? Or does that lawyer have a history of frivolous law suits?

I could care less that the lawyer is somehow marginally connected to the owner. I mean seriously. [1] How dumb would you have to be to contrive and illegal scheme to fabricate accusations against one of the most famous athletes in the country and then use your neighbor? [2] How did these 50+ incidents and women all magically meet and massage Watson ? Anyone want to think Watson shared his sexual deviance with teammates and his employer and that this schtick was known?

That’s fine.

I read the documents of Watson’s defense. Combine that with the fact that the GJ didn’t indict - despite the fact that sexual misconduct/assault is low hanging fruit for any prosecutor to get an indictment- leads credence to Watson.

Does that make him innocent? Maybe, maybe not. But the grand jury had the evidence, had the women testifying, and didn’t bother to indict. All a GJ needed was probable cause, and they didn’t even get that.

Again, they have far more information available to them than you and I ever could. So please, take it up with the GJ with why you think they got it wrong.

I’m just a dude on the board.

Where are you seeing sexual misconduct suits are low hanging fruit?

If you read that some place, I would absolutely question the source and the spin.

Less than 1.0% of sex abuse cases end in convictions.
Less than 6% of reported cases end in arrest.
31% aren't even reported because females don't want to be subjugated to the process.

That is not low hanging fruit.

Somebody clearly doesn’t know the difference between being charged and convicted. One comes before the other broskie.

If you want a conversation I will continue and show why those stats matter.

If you want to run with "Again, they have far more information available to them than you and I ever could. So please, take it up with the GJ with why you think they got it wrong." ... we can leave it.

We can leave it then.

I could care less about the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon stuff. It's more the fact that he's the kind of guy that held fundraisers for Trump at his mansion, later said he wouldn't support Trump any longer but then turned right around and gave $500k to his inauguration committee shortly thereafter. (link) Throw in the fact that he wants to be mayor of Houston in conjunction with the timing of the lawsuit, and the guy just doesn't seem particularly trustworthy.

I suppose I might say that of most lawyers and politicians, and this guy is both.

This. And add to that, while I don't know any of the shenanigans with trump fundraising, donations and flip flopping on his support.... just like the fact that all 22 are with one lawyer, if it wasn't standard practice and the 'norm' then I would pay attention to it. As it is - the spin in parts of the media is that this lawsuit coincided with Watson not playing for Houston with the insinuation very much that it was orchestrated by the owner. Maybe you aren't saying that, but that is the air play regards the lawyer and the timing.

He opted for a jury verses a judge deciding.

All the legal stuff will shake out eventually. Until then, none of us know what we think we know.

I've noticed that some fans have difficulty understanding being innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

They, the accusers, parties, lawyers failed to produce enough evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to prove Watson guilty of certain charges. There's still the civil trial and I don't know what the outcome will be, Watson will probably have to pay money. In any event, if I were Watson I'd pursue separate defamation cases against wrongful accusers.

This right here.

I asked my daughter about her opinion regarding DeShaun Watson.

Maybe she’s biased because of her has being on the other side of the table in a rape case but she said following. (I didn’t tell her anything about my opinion I just asked her to google the case.)

The first hurdle is to convince yourself that you did nothing wrong and that you has been part of a criminal act. If there is no witnesses, no physical evidence or any other proofs then it’s easy to be insecure and blame yourself. With that comes isolation and loneliness. Days goes by to weeks and maybe months, years and for every day it get’s harder and harder to talk to someone.

When she finally talked to her best friend, later her family, then comes the shame. Questions who’s sometimes is difficult to answer. Why wait so long? Are you sure you remember correctly? But he didn’t hurt you? You have no evidence so the police maybe don’t believe in you?

Going to the police is probably the worst. You have to remember exact time, day, where and how, how you where dressed, what you said and didn’t said, why you didn’t walk away, said no more powerful and so on. A skillful policeman and especially a professional lawyer can easily make you nervous, insecure, you start to doubt your own memories and if you’re not mentally strong enough it’s easy to break down.

At the court house you face the public, media, the man you accuse, often a aggressive lawyer and at that time you probably don’t even care if you win or not. You just want to disappear and never seen again. Your story will be scrutinized and your private life will be exposed and drawn to the mud.

No women do this voluntary or without help and backing from their family, Win or lose is often irrelevant when it’s over. Very few cases go all the way and only a tiny fraction can prove guilt.

My daughter didn’t have any opinion if DS Watson is guilty or not she only said she feels very strongly for these 22 women. She said the NFL community is strong, rich and powerful. Cleveland Browns has invested $230m, draft picks and reputation so they will do whatever necessary to take care of the public opinion. NFL and the Browns supporters will take care of the rest. These 22 women have already lost before this circus even start.

This was the opinion from a 22 year old women who has been thru a similar experience but on a much much smaller arena. Sorry for my bad English and being personal but I think I owe this to my lovely daughter. With that I end my little crusade.

I wonder if the FO expected nearly this much blow back on the DW trade? I imagine with season tickets going on sale at the same time, they got their ears full.

It means he has a better chance to be found not guilty with 12 people without jobs judging him.

What? I have not cast any stones and never claimed to be without sin.

OK People have left the building, the Browns, etc...
It seems to me the ones you should be jumping on is/are the NFL in general.
If the NFL had banned him then there would be no problem.......... oh wait they had no grounds to.........
If you think he's a predator and he had gone to another team would you quit watching NFL Football?
If you say no then that is hypocrisy ........

The Lawyer filing suit is not doing it Pro Bono... he is a Civil Suit suit..... he gets a cut of the action....he will be making a TON of cash here............
Watch all the ads for lawsuits on TV.... it's a thriving business.... is it a valid claim he's filing... we'll see.....

There's a waitlist for Browns season tickets. Season tickets are sold out.

Yes
Yes for 230 million
Yes

They will..he came to Cleveland, ya know Rodger and his hate for Cleveland...



Did he get rejected by Cleveland, for an only fans ?

Here are some possible reasons why Deshaun was not indicted by the Houston grand jury. These claims don't get much play from the national media. But the Houston grand jury must have paid attention.

https://www.click2houston.com/news/...ons-accusers-attempted-to-blackmail-him/

https://www.khou.com/article/news/local/deshaun-watson-fbi/285-3b4e5cae-7c8e-4b30-bac3-cf60ab2ed00d

https://www.khou.com/article/news/l...285-4cfd4fc4-8014-450f-a889-07711242a992

I'm only on page 2 of this thread, but I'm about halfway through the following article, which is extremely thorough.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2021/05/21/n...n-sexual-misconduct-lawsuits-daily-cover

Sorry if this has already been linked.

I just want to say that I do appreciate you sharing your perspective on this. Along the lines of "everyone is allowed to feel what they feel" on the topic, I appreciate hearing a perspective that I could never even begin to fathom. My daughter will be born next month, so it's gotten me thinking along those lines. Generally, I don't appreciate people trying to bash others over the head with their opinions/beliefs, but I don't begrudge you for getting passionate after what you went through.

Part of me wants to bury this in my back of my head forever because it's just sports fandom, but I do subscribe to the "toleration is acceptance" and "voting with your wallet" mindsets. Ignoring this would be hypocritical, IMO.

I also appreciate whoever opened up the "deal only" thread. Keeping that thread specific to the football and financial side of the trade will allow both to breathe, IMO.

The Truth And Shame Of The Deshaun Watson Trade

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-raiders-nfl-fmia-peter-king/?cid=fmiatw

I am not going to write about the difference Deshaun Watson makes in the Cleveland Browns as a football team. There will be time for that—five years. Five obscenely expensive years, in which the Browns will pay a question mark $2.7 million per game to play football.

I am going to write about the Browns selling their souls for a football player who has 22 open accusations of sexual assault or sexual harassment against him.

This is all necessary, of course, because the Browns acquired Watson from Houston in a blockbuster trade on Friday. Cleveland sent three first-round picks (including the No. 13 overall pick in April’s draft), a 2023 third-rounder and a 2024 fourth-rounder in exchange for Watson and a 2024 fifth-rounder. As part of the deal, Cleveland gave Watson a new five-year, $230 million contract.

The Lead: Watson

I don’t think any team should go into business with a player—though cleared of criminal charges—who has 22 women accusing him of indecent acts. Thirty-one teams should have risen up and said, We might be interested in this great football player, but only after we know the full scope of what we’re dealing with. The fact is, they don’t know. Watson could be faultless, and he could have run into 22 women, all of whom are lying, as his attorney Rusty Hardin thinks. That would be an incredible coincidence, 22 women all lying. But let the legal system play this out.

What happens, do you think, if the cases run their course and the Browns find they’ve handed $230 million, guaranteed, to a man who loses some of these civil suits, or one, or all? What happens if even some of the ghoulish and sexually graphic offenses described in the reporting of Jenny Vrentas for Sports Illustrated in the last year are true? Extrapolate. How would Browns fans—women and, I hope, men—feel about wearing their WATSON 4 jerseys in the community and to games? How would you feel about your children wearing them?

I stress: We are innocent till proven guilty in this country. But in what other business, in what other line of work, would a person with such serious accusations against him be handed a guaranteed $230 million to lead the jewel of the community, a prized and beloved public trust like the Cleveland Browns?

I don’t know how this happened, and I don’t know whether there was internal disagreement among the owners or executives of the Browns about signing Watson. I don’t know if the Browns volunteered to do this five-year, $230-million deal, the one with $80 million more in guarantees than any contract in NFL history, or if it was what Watson’s camp insisted. It doesn’t matter. The result is the result: Deshaun Watson got a $74-million raise after sitting out the 2021 season (the difference between his Houston contract and the new Cleveland pact) while his legal fate was being decided. How does this happen?

What is also reprehensible is the fact that Watson’s signing bonus is a reported $45 million, while his first-year salary is a relatively puny $1.035 million, which becomes significant if he gets suspended, as is widely expected. The suspension and resulting fine would come out of his salary only. Say the NFL bans him for six games. The fine would be $345,000, which is seven-tenths of 1 percent of his 2022 compensation.

It’s hard to be more outraged about this story, but that last paragraph makes me want to spit nails.

Owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam signed off on it all, obviously, and will have to live with the consequences. Those consequences might be a Super Bowl, or two, in the next five years. That’s why they’re going out on such a risky limb, of course.

Those consequences, for now, are these, from the community:

The Cleveland Rape Crisis Center said Saturday, “We understand the story surrounding Deshaun Watson joining the Cleveland Browns is triggering for far too many of our friends and neighbors … To the community we say, we see you. We hear your outrage. We feel it too.”

Doug Lesmerises, a writer for the Cleveland Plain Dealer, quoted a woman, 23-year-old Molly Rose of Chagrin Falls, Ohio, who wrote to him saying: “I don’t know how to root for a team I’ve loved my whole life when every time I see their QB it reminds me of my own experiences being a victim of sexual assault. It may sound dramatic, but my heart is broken.”

“They chased the joy, and they dented the pride,” Lesmerises wrote.

They better hope it’s only dented.

Usually after you make a trade for the quarterback you believe will make you a contender for the next 10 years, you have a press conference trumpeting the event. The Browns waited till Sunday to issue three statements—one each from the Haslams, from GM Andrew Berry and from coach Kevin Stefanski. “We are acutely aware and empathetic to the highly personal sentiments expressed about this decision,” the statement from ownership said. The owners said they spent “a tremendous amount of time” in “in-depth conversations” in a “comprehensive evaluation process.” They said Watson was “humble, sincere and candid” and “embraces the hard work needed to build his name both in the community and on the field.”

We did our due diligence, in other words. What did you expect? But words and statements don’t matter now. The action of signing a player with so much hanging over him, that’s what matters.

I am also going to write about the National Football League, which is very good at making billions, not so good with the moral compass.

The NFL is good at marketing the game to women, at having breast-cancer awareness and pink cleats, at hosting Women’s Careers in Football Forums, at trumpeting female game officials, scouts and assistant coaches. But when it comes time to discipline the owner of the Washington franchise for a string of sexual harassment (and worse) cases against women, all the NFL could muster up was fining Daniel Snyder $10 million, about 3 percent of his franchise’s annual TV revenue, and making him hand over the day-to-day ops of the organization to his wife for several months. Snyder wasn’t banned from being part of the organization. While $10 million is a lot of money, it is also about 2 percent of an average team’s annual total revenue.

How do women who go to work in the league office every day, or women who work for teams, feel when they see the hushing-up of what surely would have been a damning report on Snyder? How do they feel when the league sits idly by and watches one of its most popular franchises, Cleveland, chase after a tarnished (to put it mildly) star? The league is alienating the part of its fan base, women, it is marketing so aggressively.

The moral of the story is if you’re good enough, or you’re rich enough, all else can be overlooked.

The NFL will be in-person for its annual league meetings starting next Sunday, the first time every significant league figure will be together since the last non-virtual meetings in 2019. Roger Goodell needs to show he’s more than a business leader who makes 32 owners richer by the day. Goodell needs to show he’s a moral leader as well. I don’t know how he can look at the last few days in the NFL, with four teams vying for Watson’s services and the winner looking so craven and embarrassing in the process, and not feel shame about the direction of the league.

Free agency and the start of trading in a new league year is always a fun and rejuvenating time. This year, I feel like I just drank a quart of sour milk. The bad taste will take a while to go away.

46 mill per year will be cheap for a QB in 5 years.

The real question is, does he play like a $46mil QB for the next 5 years?

Then he (being a hypocrite) proceeds to condemn Watson for being accused even though the GJ deceided not to.

j/c...

So essentially any team that didn't have franchise QB or perhaps a rookie recently drafted allegedly went after Watson? Interesting.

From The Jason Lloyd article....

They did, however, speak extensively with three female attorneys associated with Hardin’s defense team. They were the women, including attorney Letitia Quinones, who vetted Watson on whether or not to take the case. They went to Georgia, where Watson was staying, and spent two days gathering information before agreeing to represent him. What the female attorneys told the Browns about the case went a long way toward getting the Haslams comfortable with moving forward and pursuing a trade for Watson.

.....

Mulugheta called Berry on Thursday and told him they weren’t getting Watson, but Berry remained persistent. He called Mulugheta back Thursday night to discuss another one of his clients, and at the end of the call turned it back to Watson. He asked what the Browns could’ve done better or differently, then reiterated the team remained interested in him.

Carolina had yet to be eliminated, but the Panthers wouldn’t guarantee the third and fourth years on Watson’s contract. The Browns saw it as an opportunity.

Berry informed the Browns’ staff Friday morning they may not be out of it after all. By Friday afternoon, the two sides were agreeing to a staggering five-year, $230 million deal that was fully guaranteed, the richest guaranteed contract in league history. Included in the deal: a $45 million signing bonus and $1 million base salary in 2022 that helps protect Watson from the financial implications of any league suspension.

Watson’s side never shopped the offer. When the stunning announcement was made that Watson was headed to Cleveland and contract details emerged, one team called and asked why it wasn’t given an opportunity to match — because, they insisted, they would have. The answer: Watson wanted to go to Cleveland. His only hurdle had been moving to a city where he’d never really been before.

You know I caught that right off the bat as well...The entire article is based upon guilt. In today's world accusations are more damaging than facts and legal processes. That is NOT condoning or absolving Watson in any way shape or form. It is simply an observation of today's society. and that is not a good observation.

I admit it. I am extremely conflicted about this signing. I do think there is quite a bit fabricated and or exaggerated on the side of the accusations...And that has more to do with the attorney (who appears to be a bigger scumbag than Watson), rather than the women. If I can be allowed to make an over generalized and stereotypical distinction just for making a point....I think Watson was extremely professional with his "professional" therapists....and he was unprofessional with his "pro" masseuses'(sp). I find it hard to need 50 or more Therapists off of Instagram (despite some from that outlet being completely legitimate) The COVID situation does have merit but for me does not account for the sheer number of different people. JMO. There is so much on each side that appears so wrong.

It has to be somewhere in the middle. But I don't think and fear we will ever know what that is.

But notice I said the word "think". I don't "know" squat. Except that he is neither guilty nor innocent. Because the Grand Jury stated that there is no crime for him to be innocent nor guilty of. Let me say that again. The Grand Jury says there is NO CRIME for him to be innocent nor guilty of. So, lets stop using these terms. He never went to trial so innocence or guilt is a non entity.

Outside of that, I don't "know" squat. Everything has been hearsay. These 22 say this...these 18 say that...This NFL CB says this...This trainer says that. I refuse to condemn a person based on hearsay. A part of me believes strongly that inappropriate acts occurred. But I don't know who instigated them....I hold the right to restrain from judgement until things play out. This is NOT an absolution. Because I have not made a decision. And frankly I think those who have already made up their minds on this are a bit too emotional and reactive (and part of the societal problem I spoke of earlier). I really liked the video of the local CBS newscaster...It was posted in one of these threads. A very calm reasonable statement. Again it was by no means an absolution of Watson...simply a statement of the conflict we need to deal with. Some of you are adamant that you have come to a resolution of that conflict. I personally have not. And until I do. I am not going to condemn nor praise him. I will condemn and/or defend him without emotion and based on the law and whatever FACTS (not hearsay) come out. I don't have to make my decision now. And I don't understand the need for so many of you to draw that line in the sand right now...

The law says innocent until proven guilty...and I stated that he is neither according to the law. And that is true and FACT. But innocent until proven guilty is not just a law but also a philosophy. A philosophy I believe in and try to uphold. I am human so I have not always been successful. But I do try. And I will take that approach here as well. I am letting this play out and suggest others do the same to keep some sort of civility and sanity, not only with each other but within our selves as well. Because whatever comes of this...What are you going to do if you are wrong? What will you do if you were right?

When it boils down to it you can't reasonably state we need to remove a QB when he posted something you didn't like on Instagram and also state you can't talk bad about a QB because he hasn't been indicted by a Grand Jury. If you believe an Instagram post has any impact on the a player's ability 24 accusations should as well.

The alternative is that a person doesn't like the current QB so uses silly excuses to trash him but wants to support (Until he starts playing bad) another player so will overlook anything he does. Thats the spectrum.

I really do not see the issue with this at all.... it is not hypocrisy it's having an opinion. It's highlighting that there are 22 civil cases pending and in any other walk of life corporations wouldn't touch that individual with a barge pole. It's highlighting that OJ Simpson was found guilty in a court - yet public opinion overwhelmingly was that he was guilty. It's highlighting that sex crimes and accusations are among the hardest to prove - prosecutors like to have winning records and taking on hard to prove trials is not something they embrace ... The GJ did not pronounce him innocent, it simply chose not to prosecute. People form opinions of guilt or innocence of high profile and divisive public individuals all the time:

Most people I know in Ohio who know anything about Ben, think Ben is guilty of sexual assault/rape. never criminally charged.
Hilary - still vilified as guilty though investigated and cleared.
Hunter Biden - there is no cry "He's innocent until proven guilty" - he's already presumed guilty by many many posters on this board.
Trump has endured the same branding of guilt on many - but as far as I know he's not been found guilty in a court of law.

I don't see an issue.

Having an opinion is not a problem...Hell, it is your right. But actions based upon opinions with little facts always have terrible outcomes. And in this case, the actions I speak of is how we are treating each other. And for many who claim to be good people, we are certainly being extremely judgmental. Judgmental of each other...judgmental of Watson (in both ways). If that is not an issue...I am not sure what is. Because it certainly isn't leading to civil discourse. Why does there have to be a hard line drawn in the sand at this time with so little FACTS??? It is my opinion...well I stated my opinion...my opinion is that I think somethings and don't know a lot more than what I think. I am pretty sure everyone is in that same boat. But we certainly have many who have crafted some absolutes in their hearts and minds and are trying to beat each other over the head with it. Again...that isn't an issue??? Do you enjoy reading this banter? Do you think it productive? I certainly don't. It is childish and presumptive on a very serious subject.

I'm confused, why would he be picking, or even need, a new head coach? Stefanski's offense has guys running wide open, all over the field, on almost every play.. the only problem with Stefanski's offense was Baker Mayfield.. he's gone.. so why, on earth, would Watson want a new head coach?

Simple truth, Watson is in Cleveland, so short of fans rising up and forcing the club to release him, he will be here. If he was released, the club is hamstrung for 5 years on his salary, sat that point we all might as well root for Buffalo for a while.

He was accused almost the exact same amount of times as Trump. Paying off a woman for their silence is the same whether you do it through a court of law or in a back room deal. You're paying her to shut up and to keep the public from knowing the details.

has watson paid anybody off or is he actively fighting the suits? as of right now, watson hasn't paid off any woman in either scenario. he's fighting to maintain his innocence. that doesn't make him innocent, but just because somebody accuses you of something doesn't make you guilty, either.

What you've said is true - but it's not Browns fans ... it's everywhere/everyone. Go to any article about this topic on any website and the comments are entirely split with support for 100% innocent and cleared by the GJ - to judgement that "something" must have happened. There is not a lot of gray ... and there is not a great deal of civil exchange, although there is some. Sex crimes are an emotive and charged topic - I think we can expect a lot of energy in the discussion. I am fine with that - I think it's good to discuss the topic ... what I said previously and still believe, is that judging others for their opinions is not cool and unwarranted - and people on both sides of this issue are doing it.

Well that means O.J. is innocent then, right? I've noticed some people aren't smart enough to figure out that 22 women aren't all lying while they're foolish enough to think Watson must be the beacon of truth.

OJ was found innocent in the court of law. Does not matter what I think. Up until now the evidence has suggested Deshaun has not committed a crime. Some of the women tried to extort money from Deshaun. He and his lawyer told them to go file a police report. They did not until then. 1 accuser has already came out and said she lied. Deshaun has not changed his story once. He has had a very clean record his whiole life and has been seen as a good citizen at Clemson and before these accusations. 18 other women gave him the same messages and said he treated them fine. Why should he not be believed? What in his past says he is a liar?

this is the lady who sent those text messages that people keep posting about....interview from back in april 8th.

I guess you should be asking the vast amount of posters thinking Stefanski sucks, should be replaced or fired. There's plenty of them to choose from.

Which is the part that always confused me... if you have that much money, just hire a really attractive, high priced, call girl... most people in 2022, wouldn't even care. These guys can get women, that shouldn't even be an issue... I believe it was the actor, Hugh Grant, who said, I can get sex, I'm not paying them for sex, I'm paying them for silence. Which, if I was a celebrity, I would totally understand.

Which is why, a lot of celebrities start out wanting to fight for their innocence, but that keeps it in the media longer, keeps the story going, exposes more facts which are open to interpretation.. so they settle. I don't even think many of the ones who settle do it because they know they are guilty, they do it because they want it to be over.

**None of that is an indication of whether Watson is or is not, guilty of anything.

Since she is contradicting herself it makes sense that she plead the fifth.

He tried.... Some wouldn't settle and the Dolphins wanted NDA's from all of them.

The leaking of an alleged Deshaun Watson settlement offer suggests his legal cases will continue to loom over the NFL this offseason

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-leakin...er-the-nfl-this-offseason-012042482.html

It's actually the opposite. The lawyer for the accusers was the one who asked for settlements straight out of the gate.

Deshawn tried to settle with all of them. Some of them refused. That shot down the deal that would have sent him to the Dolphins last year.

The leaking of an alleged Deshaun Watson settlement offer suggests his legal cases will continue to loom over the NFL this offseason

https://sports.yahoo.com/the-leakin...er-the-nfl-this-offseason-012042482.html

its possible that dude had some massage sex fantasy, and thats why he was running through therapist like an assembly line.

so one source says he wants to settle, another says he was being extorted for 30k and 100k.

guess it falls back on the old "wait til all the facts come out".

So your argument is that even if a a person is guilty it doesn't matter because he wasn't found guilty? And it doesn't matter if he's guilty or not. If that's you take, you can have it.

OJ was found guilty (or whatever it's called) in the civil suit.

The fact is 22 women say he's guilty. Even if only half are telling the truth it's terrible. So the fact is you can choose to believe Watson by thinking that 22 women are lying or not. Or you can pretend that's not enough to convince you. And when the time comes he pays a bunch of these women off for their silence, and he will, the excuse will be that they wanted the money not that deshawn paid to keep them quite. Just watch. That's how society treats women who were sexually abused.

We can't control what other people do... We can only control ourselves. So just because other people are 100% polarized, doesn't mean we have to be too.

I am in 100% agreement, it is good to discuss the topic. So when do we start? Because a discussion is not what I have been reading.

I also agree about judging others for their opinion. It is definitely not cool and unwarranted. My comments from the beginning have been a plea to both sides...(just to be clear)

Yes I know. But you can see how this entire scenario will play out. Even when Watson pays many of these women for their silence to keep the truth from coming to light, somehow it will be the women treated as the perpetrators and poor little Deshawn will be portrayed as the victim. It won't make any difference.

bro you keep talking about if if if if if, but a GJ didn't even bother charging him with far more information than you. you keep acting as if i haven't been calling watson a certified creep. i get it that you're on a warpath right now, and thats fine.

so please, go take it up with the GJ or the Haslams. you clearly know more than everybody who's listened to testimony and reviewed the evidence provided, so please take a flight down to houston and tell them how to do their jobs. you keep acting like people on this board were the ones who made the trade.

Bro, you can't tell me that there isn't a nice high-priced call girl out there who isn't willing to play the role of "massage therapist" for the right amount of money.

That hasn't happened. If it does then I'll definitely be more inclined to agree with your opinion (when it's confirmed by facts). With the amount of coverage and leaks going on, I am confident we'll get info at some point.

In the Yahoo link that article is dated 1/14/22.

From KHOU from six days ago:

Both attorneys told us there's been no talk of possible settlements.

https://www.khou.com/article/news/l...285-2ae1a0fb-6efc-4296-b003-cfe8646a12d0

there probably is, but some guys like having high body counts.

Why is it you have such a hard time understanding that it's almost impossible to convict someone on he said/she said charges? You don't have to know "more than anybody else" to understand that.

I'm not going to argue about whether any of these allegations would fall under the category of rape. I'm mean some seem to follow the Bill Clinton example and say that oral isn't sex. Maybe you are just unaware of how these things tend to work in Texas or what the law states in Texas, I'm not sure. But this article applies in any sexual allegations of a he said she said nature so maybe it will help inform you of the shallow ground some of you and others are standing on.....

The Provability Gap: Why It's Hard For Prosecutors To Prove Rape Cases Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

https://www.kut.org/crime-justice/2...ove-rape-cases-beyond-a-reasonable-doubt

you're the main one in this thread who don't seem to know how anything works. just the accusations alone makes him guilty according to you. and not one single woman accused him of rape. so why do you keep bringing rape up?

you arguing a situation that didn't even happen. like damn man this crap is annoying with you trying to up the charges just because you're mad.

Like I said, it appears you don' think oral sex is sex. If Forced oral sex would be considered rape no matter how you spin it. Yet, that's exactly what he was accused of. Is that you Slick Willy? I take it you didn't bother to read the article to learn anything about how this works in Texas. You see, when the rumors first started about the predator coming here I started looking into it. It's better than throwing your hands up in the air and going, "Nuh uh!"

Woman claims Texans QB Deshaun Watson forced oral sex in third lawsuit

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...it-massage-therapists-houston-texans-nfl

I have no idea if that actually happened or not. But to claim he wasn't accused of rape is just flat out wrong.

And I'm not mad. If you want to support a predator that's on you. I certainly find it disgusting, but I'm not mad.

fine bro, i support a predator. now what? you gonna block me? never watch another nfl game again? run for office to make it so that accusations = guilt? pass the bar exam to try and bring up charges against watson?

let me know. you brought my daughters into it and accused me of supporting a predator. i dunno why you bother interacting with a scumbag like me since i'm scum of the earth like you view Watson.

you mean the same one that said she lied, and then said she was still open to massaging him again.. Yeah sounds credible

I have been discussing it - I have not proclaimed Watson guilty. My opinion is that I lean on the side that there is almost overwhelming information to show Watson has not acted with the agreement with all these women. I also believe some of these women most definitely did consent - and from what I have read they either did it multiple times or were willing to do it multiple times.

I think you can choose to focus on the the women who are clearly profiteering - you can focus on the grand jury (and suggest case closed) - or you can focus on what looks like credible testimony and hope that the civil trial lands on the truth. Sexual abuse cases are notoriously hard to prove - I posted links showing a 0.7% conviction rate on reported cases of sexual abuse. So whether in a criminal or civil case - the alleged victims are going to be up against it. Add in the spurious claims by some seeking to profit when they were actively and consensually engaged and it only makes it more difficult.

You did look bad supporting OBJ. All I'm saying.

Why would I do that?


The NFL didn't trade for watson. The NFL is still investigating to decide on the proper punishment. At least they'lll punish him and not reward him like Haslam did.

And let me make a prediction about that. The Browns structured his contract in a way that will only cost Watson over 55k per game. Circumventing the monetary portion that the NFL considers a big part of a suspension. As such the NFL will most likely make his suspension even longer. Browns fans will whine and complain that they're picking on the browns rather than admit it was the Browns that caused it. The Browns in this case put a target on their own back and it will be themselves to blame.


Nobody has to run for office or pass the bar exam to have enough common sense to understand that not all 22 women are lying and only watson is telling the truth.


God forbid anything like this ever happens to one of your daughters, but if it ever does you will change your tune faster than the weather changes in Ohio. Hell, I haven't even blocked 40. If you believe how a feel about you concerning a single issue is the totality of what I think about you as a person you are entirely mistaken.

Read that rant you just posted again and then tell me who is getting mad. Food for thought.

Typical Dawgtalker comprehension issue. I made it clear I wasn't saying he was guilty of it. You sound credible.

bro miss me with all of that. im tired of you bringing my daughters into this. i got nothing else to say to you right now.

If Watson is suspended, the length will not have anything to do with the perceived ethics of the way the Browns structured his contract. Berry has a track record of structuring contracts this way (as do many others around the NFL).

So you think the fact that the Browns structured Watson's contract in a way that takes away almost all of the financial ramifications of a suspension wasn't a part of the plan? Watson didn't see that as circumventing paying any major financial penalty? Or that the NFL won't see it that way too? I think you're fooling yourself.

Jason Lloyd of The Athletic is on the radio for the next 5 hours talking about the Browns months long research into Watson and Mayfield. It's extremely interesting, FYI, for people who might want to listen.

https://www.audacy.com/923thefan

It's taken me awhile to try to wrap my head around this, but I'll try to put my thoughts out here now.

I wasn't happy when I saw the Browns had made the trade. I knew at that time, at a minimum, that DW was a creep, based the fact the he had reached out to numerous women for massages and ended up having sex with some of them, consensual or not. That fact alone doesn't line up with my moral standards; however, I'm sure many players today don't agree with my moral standards, and that's ok.

I don't have all the facts on what happened. Like many other situations in our country recently, I like to wait until all the facts come out. I am surprised that AB and KS went this route, as it seems contrary to everything they have preached so far. My sliver of hope is that they have more information on this situation than what I do, and that is why they brought DW in, because if he is guilty of what he is accused of, I would not want him associated with my team. One mistake I can forgive, but 22 or more mistakes reveal a lack of character and morals.

My other sliver of hope is my memory of when this all started: the timing of it just seemed off, with DW requesting a trade, then like a week later, this hits the news. Seemed like a weird coincidence at the time, and it still is weird to me. Couple that with the plaintiffs' lawyer, his reputation as an ambulance chaser, and his ties to the Texans owner, and it just paints a really murky picture. I don't know what to think of it.

Maybe it's all just wishful thinking on my part. But I'm going to wait until the whole story comes out. I'm just going to have a hard time rooting for DW if this cannot be proven to be false, or we get more info.

I have no way to verify that information but if nearly all Berry's big signings followed the same pattern then it absolutely shouldn't be regarded as a special play for DW and an impending suspension ... to think anything else would be wrong.

Yes, that doesn't play into Watson's favor at all. At this point let's see what the NFL suspension ends up being. How many games would it take on the part of the NFL for this to hold any validity? Even if this wasn't "on purpose" you don't think the lack of the monetary punishment it hands watson will play into the length of his suspension?

I agree. This has been a very good listen. His article that came out this morning was an excellent read.

I expect a 10-17 game suspension. I think with another team it might have been 6 games ... but because it's Browns I think 10 games minimum.

j/c...

So you think since Berry has a pattern of structuring contracts this way it was just he could lay the ground work to do Watson's contract like this to help him avoid penalty if suspended?

j/c...

Really good interview with Sean Payne of KILT 610am in Houston. Speaking with Jason Lloyd and Dustin Fox on 92.3

https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/sp...tefanski-could-take-watson-to-next-level

listening to it now, thank you !

Lmao...Ace Ventura baby!

j/c:

That's awesome.

j/c...

One thing Jason Lloyd said today on 92.3 that really stood out was that he has more information than he is allowed to share at this time and if the public knew what he knew and the Browns know, he can see why the Browns were comfortable making this trade.

This was on the heels of the article he reported on in The Athletic today.

I'm sure more will continue to come out.

It was also interesting hearing both Lloyd and guest Seth Payne from KTIL 610 am in HOU discussing that the NFL doesn't punish or necessarily care about civil cases as there is no precedent for the NFL handing out a punishment for a civil case, but only criminal. Both expect Watson to get some sort of suspension regardless of not being indicted on charges. Seth Payne mentioned it order for Watson to have been indicted, at least 9 of the 12 members of the grand jury would have had to determine there was enough evidence to move forward with criminal charges.

Both Lloyd and Payne said the NFL could very well issue a ruling on a Watson before the civil cases have even been finalized/resolved.

Thanks for posting that Milk/Grate.

I read it this afternoon on the Athletic. Very interesting article and confirmed a lot of my initial view points. The great thing is it showed they did their research and how organized the leadership works. I liked that Step took about an hour to break down our film and Watson's film with him. Also, the best part was hearing that the Browns were his first choice , but was so hung up on location.

Now interested in hearing what everyone thinks about the articles instead of pages of law arguments.

Pretty much sums it up:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...son-sweepstakes/ar-AAVlmdj?ocid=msedgntp

Has anyone noticed, it seems No One wants Mayfield. The Colts .. No, The Falcons .. No. The Saints .. No. The Seahawks say .. No atm. The Panthers also say No atm. What do they know that we do not? Is it they prefer an "Adult" at Quarterback as well ?

I wonder if he will announce that he refuses to play for anyone in the NFL?

I think it may be the 18 mil and a draft pick to get him, when they know he will get released and only 2 teams left to via for his services. At that point you might as well take the 50/50 shot acquiring him on the open market.

At this point I’d wait for camp/preseason injury bug. You hate to wait for injuries, but they’re going to happen

I thought the Rich Eisen clip was very good. Non judgmental - but clearly feels that there has been zero accountability from Watson. About to watch the other clip.

Second clip was better than expected. But not much of a conclusion.

It goes back to marketing and Browns have been horrible about it. If you are going to take a ridiculous stance and demand a 1st round pick for Mayfield after allowing the blatant negative leaks from the team while showing your noncommittal to a player that turned your franchise around from being a laughing stock, you have failed the player and your marketing ability to get the best possible return. Considering that Wentz was moved for two 3rd rounders and Ryan for one 3rd round pick, demanding a 1st round pick for a player the team has had a major role in demeaning is disgusting in it's own right. Now, today, the Browns continue their personal destruction of that player by holding firm on their demand adding insult to injury. I'm not going to get into the bs that's going back in forth on the forum about the moral issues or not surrounding the acquisition of Watson. The move has been made and that's just that. Berry, Stefanski, and Haslam don't really give a crap about what I think anyway. However, to either just hurt or destroy the future of a player that gave his all 100% of the time that he was here and try to call it football business - is a scummy move by the team. SFO is demanding two 2nd rounders for Jimmy G - the Browns are demanding a 1st for Mayfield - neither team has had any suitors. I'm not even going to get into what player is better or not, but I know there has to be at least a 100 posts on this forum stating Jimmy G would have been an upgrade over Baker. I will say that those posters have to be some kind of stupid to think that Mayfield is now worthy of a 1st round pick over their choice replacement of Jimmy G who's price is two second round picks.

Maybe this has something to do with why as of today, none of the 2022 top 75 free agents have considered Cleveland as a landing spot - just saying.....................

I agree. With the recent signings, any trade market for Baker is pretty dry. To get a 5th round pick for him, we might have to cover half the salary. Maybe not even a pick that high.

Baker did a lot of that to himself. If he wouldn't have gotten so butt hurt about us kicking the tires on Watson, and then let his ego superinflate his perception of his actual value to other teams, he'd be our starting qb going into the 2022 season with no competition. By demanding a trade and saying he wouldn't play for the Browns, he left our FO with a choice of rolling with a backup caliber qb or going back after Watson.

There is zero chance he is released. His contract is fully guranteed and the Browns would have to eat the $18M. The Browns may have to throw in a pick or eat a portion of his salary to make a trade work.

Right now, it looks like no team wants to pay $18M for a mediocre QB with attitude issues who in all likelihood will be brought to a team where he will be offered a chance to compete for the starting job, but not handed to him. Not sure how Baker would handle being a backup at this point in his career if he doesn’t win the job. Something else for teams to consider.

I agree 100%. And that tweet was funny as hell, even for someone that has supported Baker and still believe he will do well somewhere.

and thats what sucks. i thought he statement during the chaos was perfectly fine to post on social media. i think everything that was reported after that was the issue. i won't even kill him for demanding a trade because i get it.

Pure speculation on my part - but I believe that there was a complete breakdown in trust and relationship between KS and Baker by the end of last year. I think that might have driven this as much as anything else. Just my two cents - but KS should have been strong enough to shut Baker down when the humerus got broke and the injury worsened. Instead everyone compromised - and in doing that didn't give 100% support to Baker, Baker started to sulk and his maturity issues that had improved, nose dived. I honestly think that's the root cause of where we are today. . . . From pure football perspective - the Browns might well be in a better place. Watson might be a top 5 QB and KS might utilize him fully and this team is good enough with that addition to challenge and beat anyone.

I might not entirely blame Baker for thinking he wanted a trade based on QB shopping with Watson ... but I blame him for going public and airing any feelings on anything to do with the Browns and his career on Social Media. I also think if he was smart - the right play was to say nothing, work harder, play smarter and take $18M and plan on being on a different team next year.

LOL, the Colts are paying Ryan more average per year, 54M, than Watson at 46M. Now I wonder how long it'll take Watson to demand a new deal. I give it two years at most.

I think you’re almost spot on with your observation.

From my perspective Baker handled his part poorly, very poorly. Going public on social media was idiotic and highly immature but at the same time this is who he is. Take the good like passion and a bag of positive energy with his sometimes childish reactions when someone criticize him and you get BakerMayfield. I don’t blame him for feeling offended with the way the Browns FO handled the situation but his using of social media against his employer is a death sin.

I can only comment of what I see but when Stefanski throw Baker under the bus against the Steelers he lost a little bit of my respect. I didn’t saw a mature and experienced leader who cared for a young QB instead my view is that Ski deliberately in a weird why tried to humiliate Baker.

Stefanski and Berry needs to take a deep look in the mirror and change the culture inside their organization because right now it sucks. Good leaders don’t fight with their players. A healthy organization don’t treat a player they way the handled Baker, you just don’t do that. Even if most of the Browns players share views with their employer and agree that Baker is immature they are not blind. Next time it’s their time on the chopping board. I’m glad that the Browns got a elite QB even if I’m highly uncomfortable with his baggage but they way our FO and ourHC handled Baker is nothing other then shameful.

Its not hard to understand. He had a pretty bad injury to the shoulder which is almost more important than the arm regarding QB play. Combine that with the most ultimate height of his contract and the uncertainty of not suspension due to misconduct but INJURY on if he can play. He is just a bad investment right now. This isn't a debate. Football wise I'm all for this, I think we can survive 3 years without a 1st round pick. Watson is a dang good QB I know I was one of the few that wanted us to draft him. But I don't see the need for anyone to rub salt in the wound so to say. As if one is more intelligent than the other cause nobody is clamoring for Baker...just like Brees was injured there wasn't a line of teams once a team sees how he can play then they will be attracted to him. But frankly I don't care except for the draft picks we can get for him....he no longer is a Brown. I still have a problem getting behind Watson cause of 20+ Civil suits and the character issues. What if this is a sickness? I do thank Baker cause as a fan we were sorry asses and he uplifted us from the day he stepped on the field. Thank you Baker...good luck just not against us. Best case scenario. He plays for us while Watson serves his suspension before the trade deadline he impresses teams and we get a decent pick or two for him! That is the best thing for the Browns.

jmho

Incorrect.

Bakers actions this offseason had nothing to do with signing Watson. NOTHING

Interesting. Do you really think that, had Baker not demanded a trade and said he wouldn't play for the Browns, we would have went back after Watson after being told we were out of the running?

Do you think there was any situation where Baker would ever play for the Browns again after the team told reporters that they were done with Baker whether they landed Watson or not?

If they they had done that before Baker demanded the trade, then no. I wasn't aware the team had gone to the press and said they were done with him.

I've said it since the end of last season....Baker was never coming back this year regardless of what Baker of the Browns were saying. Baker did not want to be here any longer and the Browns were ready to move on. The rest is just noise. Baker likely had his PR team whip up the "thank you" letter after the Steelers game, it was just a matter of time to when to hit send.

From the Jason Lloyd article:

The Browns’ current quarterback, Baker Mayfield, had stopped communicating with the team. Mayfield and his representatives believed the Browns were going to trade for Vikings quarterback Kirk Cousins given Stefanski’s prior relationship with Cousins in Minnesota, but the Browns were never interested in acquiring Cousins. Berry told Mayfield’s representatives at the NFL combine that the Browns may pursue one of the elite quarterbacks that could be available, such as Russell Wilson or Watson. Other than that, the team intended on bringing Mayfield back to be the starter in 2022.

Baker demanding a trade had no bearing on Berry continuing his pursuit of Watson.

From the Lloyd article:

Mulugheta called Berry on Thursday and told him they weren’t getting Watson, but Berry remained persistent. He called Mulugheta back Thursday night to discuss another one of his clients, and at the end of the call turned it back to Watson. He asked what the Browns could’ve done better or differently, then reiterated the team remained interested in him.

Carolina had yet to be eliminated, but the Panthers wouldn’t guarantee the third and fourth years on Watson’s contract. The Browns saw it as an opportunity.

Berry informed the Browns staff Friday morning they may not be out of it after all. By Friday afternoon, the two sides were agreeing to a staggering five-year, $230 million deal that was fully guaranteed, the richest guaranteed contract in league history. Included in the deal: a $45 million signing bonus and $1 million base salary in 2022 that helps protect Watson from the financial implications of any league suspension.

I don't think it will have anything to do with it being "because it's the Browns". I think it will be because the Browns took away the power of the NFL to dish out any sort of financial punishment from the suspension. The NFL doesn't like anyone circumventing their process. I know people have said, "That's the way the Browns structure contracts!". But that's just BS. There's not a person who can show we signed any player to nearly this kind of contract with only a 1mil first year base salary Trying to compare this to what are nothing more than mid level NFL contracts is just silly. This is a 230 mil. contract. To claim it wasn't structured to minimize the financial hit to Watson's suspension is naive at best. It's the only thing they have to cling to in order to not hold this FO accountable and blame their actions on the league.

Maybe that's exactly how it went down.

My opinion will remain - without someone providing overwhelming proof --> that the Browns got knocked back by Watson. ---> Haslam/team tried to patch things up Baker (remember the big story of Jimmy gonna fly to meet Baker and got rejected) ---> With the Browns looking like idiots for failing to get Watson and alienating their serviceable while healthy starter who was then being a dick, Haslam agreed to drop his pants and do WHATEVER was necessary to get Watson to come to Cleveland.

There are credible reports on the other teams that were in the running at the time baulking at guarantying more than 2-3 years.... Rodgers and Mahomes and the other very top QB in the NFL have $150 M in guarantees .... Haslam went full nuclear mode and went 5 years fully gauranteed.... that is an overreaction, desperate, knee jerk, bent over a barrel taking it up the Keiser deal. Not any other way to look at it despite what and how any of the PR machinery might want to try and spin it.

Show me some huge high dollar contract that has a 1 mil. base salary in the first year of it that Barry has drawn up.

I took that part of his post as hyperbole. That said, I wouldn't put it past the NFL at all to be as petty as you describe in yours.

You gotta do a little reasearch bro ... I said in response to the other tweet about this, if true, Berry did nothing wrong with Watson's contract. There's plenty of stink on signing him, the contract is not one of them.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/tennessee-titans/austin-hooper-19035/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/john-johnson-21833/

No - I expect a 10 game suspension - possibly more. No hyperbole.

Besides helping Watson not take a salary impact with a suspension the Browns possibly set it up like that to protect themselves in the event Watson's suspension is longer than anticipated it gives them more flexibility to bring in another QB. Example is we currently have Watson, Mayfield, and Briskett all on contract. They trade Mayfield and Watson gets a 6 to 10 game suspension they will need to sign another QB to be Briskett's back up. What if it is 1 year? They then may have to make a play for Jimmy G for a year. It is not all about Watson. The FO knows they have to take care of the team first for this year and then have a franchise QB after that.

Myles' contract extension had a base salary of barely over $1M in '21 and '22.

So you think it's fine to try and circumvent part of the NFL's punishment of a suspension and it would be them who are being petty if they apply a harsher penalty in a different way to compensate for that? Somehow I knew some fans would take that approach. It's never the fault of this FO no matter what they do.

And BTW, Cooper got almost the same base salary for 2022 as Watson and Coopers contract value guarantee is 40 mil. Watson's is 230 mil guaranteed. I know, same thing, right?

I just posted Austin Cooper and JJ III - here's MG and Amari's

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/myles-garrett-21742/
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cleveland-browns/amari-cooper-16728/

Berry did not try to circumvent league punishment ... stop already.

Yes, with less than half the guaranteed money as watson's contract.

The guarantee is not here or there regards trying to avoid impact of league suspension of Watson. Base salary is the only thing that is in play and in ALL these 5 contracts the pattern is the same.

Yes Myles contract has less than half the guaranteed money as Watson's so a comparison makes perfect sense. Really? Hell Coopers has less than a fifth of the guaranteed money.

Given the NFL is SO SO bad at giving out consistent punishments that make any sense for situations like this.... Yeah, I guess I'm ok with it. Of all the moving parts in this situation, I've probably given this the least thought.

IMO, the NFL could come back with anything between no suspension to a full year + the weird NFL purgatory they've used before. If, as an org, you've already decided on bringing the guy in (plus paying him what they are), how you structure his contract really isn't going to do much to me than those previous two decisions.

You're argument that since none of our guys has a contract like the guy that's gotten the biggest guaranteed contract ever, you can't compare the structures seems... odd.

I'm going to say Watson gets 4-6 games and I'm basing that off Roethlisberger's suspension as precedent.

In 2010, Roethlisberger was not indicted on criminal charges stemming from the alleged sexual assault charges of the college female at the bar in GA, in which he was accused of raping her in a bathroom. Goodell suspended Roethlisberger for a total of 6 games and that was later reduced to 4 games.

In 2012, Roethlisberger settled a civil suit stemming from an alleged rape in 2008 at a Lake Tahoe hotel. Criminal charges were never filed. The NFL did not issue a suspension to Roethlisberger.

Thirteen teams were interested in Watson, it's reasonable to assume all teams did some digging to get an idea of the length of suspension the NFL may impose on Watson.

As Jason Lloyd and Seth Payne discussed on 92.3 yesterday, there is no precedent for the NFL issuing a punishment for civil lawsuits or settlements. They both expect the NFL to suspend Watson based on the criminal complaints being filed even though he was not indicted under the NFL's personal conduct policy.

We'll see what happens soon, I suppose.

Watson's deal is a new deal with the cap expected to make a huge jump as the league's broadcasting revenue goes from 4.4 billion a year to 10 billion a year starting in 2023. Watson plays QB. Watson had leverage with his no trade clause.

I think structuring a contract to reflect the state of the overall salary cap is NFL contracts 101. Bigger cap hits later are generally how NFL contracts work.

The NFL could have punished Watson last season. It's not the Browns' fault that Goodell didn't.

What if Watson is cleared and the NFL doesn't punish him? Will that be the FO's fault, too?

I don't think you can. There is no similar contract to compare it to. I can certainly understand the NFL seeing this as suspending watson would not have any financial impact on watson in the grand scheme of things and feel a need to compensate for that in a longer suspension.

But not seeing how this plays out is.


No, with 22 accusers that would be a miracle.

What does guaranteed money have to do with circumventing the NFL punishment?

The point is, there are no similar circumstances in Barry's career to THIS contract. It doesn't exist. There is a financial cost to being suspended by the NFL. That financial cost are game checks. Those checks are based on your base salary. The lower your base salary the less financial price you pay. By shifting a contract to bonuses instead of base salary, that directly impacts the financial portion of an NFL suspension. As for whether that was done on purpose or in the natural flow of things is certainly up for debate. Thinking the NFL won't take that into account when dishing out punishment I think is much less debatable.

Pit - the base salary in the first year of the 4 other stars we signed is the same. You are making claims that to not stand up under scrutiny.

But the NFL does evolve and react to criticism and more so condemnation in the public eye. NFL got a black eye with Ray Rice - did more with Kareem Hunt. I think most would think the Big Ben suspension fell way short of the punishment needed. With all the exposure to this case. With 22 civil cases hanging over his head and national outcry. I see the NFL setting a new tone and using the Browns as the opportunity to show the world they take this stuff seriously.

Show me another $230M contract Berry has done where he didn't have a low first year salary.

It sounds like you're using the fact that Watson's contract being in a stratosphere that nobody else on our team can touch because nobody else is a top 5 QB as a crutch to dismiss one of the few comparison points of said contracts.

I can't say for sure if the FO did this to accommodate Watson and his impending suspension. And I can only give them the benefit of the doubt because they seem to like to do this (low guaranteed $$ first year). I know the story pushed out is that it WASN'T the contract that got Watson to reconsider, but that also requires the reader to suspend quite a bit of common sense.

It may be wishful thinking, but I'm wondering if the trade cost randomly going up from what both teams put out to when the league made it official was due to the teams getting clarity on impending punishment (or lack thereof.)

They do evolve and things change, but after the Roethlisberger precedent that has been set does the NFL really want to "set a new tone" make an example of a black QB on the heels of the BLM movement and all the 'End Racism' painted on the end zones and on the back of player helmet? You don't think the NFL will be sensitive to all this when looking at what suspension Roethlisberger received in comparison to what Watson receives? The NFL is in a tricky spot.

There was a national outcry over Roethlisberger, this just seems larger because it's in our face now.

I think the trigger to start trade talks was the grand jury decision - and after that all gloves were off. I am doubtful more information came to light from the start of the Watson bidding war to the conclusion a few days later.

interestingly - I've read this week that because only 9 of the 22 sought criminal charges, there is the possibility that others of the 22 pursue criminal charges and a new grand jury could make a different decision!! No idea how likely (I am assuming very, very low) but pause for thought.

And their contracts were at a fraction of the cost. Which I believe makes trying to compare them does not stand up under scrutiny.

Joe Thomas on the Dan Patrick Show Full Interview | 03/22/22

Just a couple points of clarification....

If you consider putting a massive trade package together and getting it submitted to the Texans for approval, "kicking the tires"..... then yea, we kicked the tires.

I know he asked for a trade, is the second part of that true? I have not seen it reported.

I don't think we will ever know the exact timeline.

To me it seems things were unraveling for a while, well before there was anything public. My guess is that there was a point that both sides knew it was over, then it festered in private like a bad college relationship. Once there was a new love interest in the room it went all public, like a bad high school relationship.

You are very very wrong - but don't let that stop you.

There are some other big contracts in that 4. None of them as big as Watson's ... because none are as big as Watson's.

What is significant - no matter what the split between guarantee and salary: No matter how big - they are all at league min Base salary year 1. It's not proportional to the contract, or guarantee or any other factor, they are all league minimum.

You are choosing to see something that isn't there. That's you, that's your choice.

Prickly.

So.....Mortenson's source of the "adult" comment was Joe Thomas??

I kid, I kid.

Glad to see you're willing to make such bold statements. We have a contract that's worth more than double any other contract Barry has even dealt and it's beyond any possibility to you that such circumstances be taken into consideration. I won't sit here and tell you that you're very wrong. I will say it seems you have chosen not to look at other possibilities due to having your mind made up. No different than me no matter how much you protest.

There was the announced trade by both teams and then the trade the NFL posted which had us paying more and the Texans giving back less. What changed? To me it's more likely to have been due to something new coming from outside the teams.

I'm not overly concerned with the additional potential criminal charges coming up. I would guess that they brought the "strongest" cases first. It's always a possibility, but I think it's more likely the initial "strong" cases would come back than the others being tried. But, I'm thinking counter suits might be just as likely at this point.
.

Specific to the Base Salary year 1 - and no other part of the contract, and without reference to the size of the contract - highlight one thing that is different for DW than the other 4 I looked up and referenced.

If there is no difference... what is it that you are suggesting? Only the base salary impacts DW for any suspension, so there must be something about the base salary year 1 that is different....

It was a franchise QB contract, and the QB had all the leverage.

It was going to be massive and player-friendly whichever team did it.

Exactly. It was structured exactly the way Deshawn wanted it structured because the Browns had zero leverage. As such it's certainly structured in a way that benefits Deshawn if he gets suspended.

Allegedly, there were a couple teams that came back and were miffed they they couldn't match the contract Browns gave.

Or just the way DeShaun gets a bunch of money up front, as all players want.

Since it seems we agree he had all the leverage it's both.

Unless he's innocent.

JC

Why are we so certain Watson even gets a suspension? I am not so sure that bad press is enough to suspend a player.

I am not saying he won't, but what does the NFL have that would warrant such a move? There are charges the DA elected not to pursue. I know there are pending allegations in civil court, but can or should the NFL suspend based on allegations?

I know there are a lot of set opinions around here, but as a what if...what if he didn't do anything?

Which has no bearing on his leverage in the contract.

but, if that is the case, you are intimating that 22 women lied, and that can't possibly be true.

Then 22 women are lying and those are terrible odds.

Called shot!

Odds only really apply to random occurrences. The women lied or they didn't. Odds don't apply to specific past incidents.

The filings indicate that there is hard evidence of some of the women lying.

I'm not saying all the women are lying. I'm saying your odds are made up.

The odds of 22 random sexual assault accusers lying is probably terrible. The odds of these specific 22 appear to be much higher.

"Appear to be"? Based on what? That they have the same lawyer? No the odds that all 22 of them are lying is not "much higher".

I don't believe that it is possible. I think anyone who believes otherwise is quite naive. The funny part is I don't see you call out anyone who has said they must be prostitutes or attacked their character either.

And that's what makes this so very obvious. People have said terrible things about these women and very few have questioned any of those posts. They only attempt to make excuses why 22 women must be lying and Watson holds no guilt. That speaks volumes. And then they claim that the fact these women didn't immediately report these incidents is some kind of evidence. All you have to do is read these Watson threads to see why women don't. The victims are made out to be the perpetrators. And they know that's what will happen. Woman accuses a wealthy or powerful person? The response will be they are all money grubbers, hookers or of low character because that powerful man couldn't have done what they're accusing him of.

It's shameful.

Based on the fact that the filings talk about a contemporaneous recording of a phone conversation that proves lying.

If they have the evidence they say they have, that would support the GJ's decision to vote no on all charges.

It's hard for me to believe there would be no charges if they lied about having evidence. There's no he said she said there. They either had the evidence or they didn't.

If there were multiple definite liars amongst the 22 random accusers the odds of all them lying would go up from a statistical standpoint.

Agree, the NFL CAN'T suspend on he said, she said.....Watson would sue and could make MILLIONS. Even if he settles out of court, since when do settlements
equal missed games or game. I'm thinking he MIGHT settle a few and tell the hangers on to get ready to rumble......GO Browns!!!!

Precedent will likely be a factor...

I can't see the NFL backing off on Watson punishment just because they have a soft place in their heart for him or the Browns. Seems that some believe the Browns structured Watson's contract in a way that might lower the value of Watson's contract during the first year...thus limiting the amount of the cash value which would translate into a much lower financial burden for Watson and his agents.

The NFL might not appreciate all the effort that Watson and the Browns went to in their attempt to protect Watson from the NFL's financial punishment. Maybe the NFL reformulates how they assess Watson's contract value to close any loop-hole that might be attempted.

Maybe the NFL adds more games to Watson's suspension during 2022 instead of trying to collect more of Watson's cash. Maybe the NFL sends a message to NFL franchises that attempt to circumvent the financial punishment by simply adding to the number of games they suspend players who attempt such strategies.

And on a funny note...look at the link...LOL

https://www.amtamassage.org/convent...ADmxUGykBUKsj4P2VCTGm1N4ipIaApZGEALw_wcB

Proving real life stranger than fiction ... you couldn't make it up if you tried.

Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not (haven't heard anything about it), but isn't the fully guaranteed part of the contract mostly just a joke?
Unless for some crazy reason the Browns' removed the standard conduct stipulations, the guarantees will void with the suspension...and that man getting suspended.
Obviously no one has read the actual verbiage, but if the guarantees don't void, booo, Andrew.
If they do...I'm back to loving AB.
Adding guarantees to a contract that will void by August (ish) just as so many teams have talented young QB's coming up on their extensions.

"Wah, we want guarantees like Deshaun got"

Just a thought.

Much of this thread seems like it belongs in the Tailgate forum. Not much football talk. I will stick to football.

The Browns were in a tough spot. In fact, I thought it was hopeless after I saw how much Josh Allen, Burrow, and Herbert progressed. Mahomes was already established. The AFC was/is loaded w/great qbs. We had a dud. Watson is in the group w/QBs such as Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Herbert, and Burrow. He is ahead of the next tier, which includes Prescott.

I think he will flourish in Stefanski's offense and he is going to be playing behind perhaps the best OL in the NFL. I think that the Draft OL at 13 in the Draft forum thread can die now. Watson played behind perhaps the worst OL in the NFL and still lit it up. I also think he will attract free agents. I don't think any WR/TE would have wanted to come here w/Baker as qb.

I do expect him to be suspended. Probably 4-8 games, but 6 seems about right. However, this trade was not just for this year. It's a 10--15 year commitment. It should give us stability at the most important position in professional sports.

I was a Dorsey guy and I still believe Depo screwed him. But Berry has done a very nice job since he took over. I commend the Browns for trying to improve the team.

I do wish we could have made this move before Baker alienated OBJ. Watson w/OBJ and Juice would have been something special. I get the Cooper trade because he is productive and we still had Baker, so no WR would want to sign here. But Cooper is kinda like Baker in that he disappears late in games. The Covid thing also really upset the Cowboys' management last year. Cooper wasn't "all in." He's very talented, but I'd rather have OBJ and Juice.

Regardless, acquiring Watson is a great move for the Browns on the football field and in the locker room.

The thread titled "Pure football the deal" discusses only the football aspect of Watson trade.

holy cannoli vers is finally back!

You seem to lack the understanding that he said she said is something prosecutors usually don't consider strong enough evidence to convict on. So your claim is "There is some evidence that one of them may have lied so they are probably all liars" makes some sort of compelling evidence to you that all 22 are more likely to be lying now?

Now we know why Deshawn really changed his mind about coming to Cleveland.

No, reportedly there is unequivocal evidence that one (perhaps more) of them did lie. From a "mathematical" standpoint, if one of the accusers likelihood goes from the standard low percentage of false accusations to 100 percent, the likelihood of all of them lying goes up a statistically significant amount from a strictly mathematical angle.

But then this isn't a random group, so the low percentage of false accusations may not really have been applicable in the first place.

Probability is best applied when looking at large groups and random samples. When you look at all sexual assault accusers, the chance of randomly picking one that was lying is small. But this situation isn't picking from all accusers, so the broader statistics don't necessarily apply to this specific sample.

I'm not saying it's compelling evidence that they all lied. But, the probability that they all lied goes up with each proven liar. What that probability is, I don't know. However, it is greater than zero. Depending on the evidence, it could be much greater.

I guess if less than a 4% margin makes you feel better then have at it. And so far you're basing that on "what you heard".

If by what you heard you mean court documents, then, yes, that's what I'm basing it on. And it's not about how I feel, it's about the "facts."

Well of course it is. Where are those court documents? Or is that what you heard was in them?

or a third option of "let's wait until all the testimony is on record". I also don't mean to belittle any of the accusations, but the posters writing "22 cases of sexual assault" are not accurate. I am not going to research or try to remember how many of the allegations were legally sexual assault and how many were accusations were for much lesser severity. And no, I am not downplaying harassment but I learned plenty from the Duke rape case. A coach was fired, players were lambasted in the media. I remember Nancy Grace going on and on about how we have to "believe this woman". Only to find out it was totally fabricated and the prosecutor and detective manufactured evidence.

Everyone is very emotional now without all facts and testimony clear. I want to know the truth, but I am also willing to wait. If this ends up being a horrible situation for the Browns it certainly won't be the first. But if true, it certainly was horrible for the young women,.

Maybe someone should have given the Browns that same advice. But since the Browns shouldn't wait on making their decision, we should? And the Nancy grace thing? "We should believe this woman" is nothing even comparable to "We should believe that 22 women are lying".

I'm not suggesting you are saying that, but that's what it would take to act as though nothing happened here. That's in no way a realistic take on things.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132-deshaun-watson-original-answer

So it was actually a claim made by his defense team. That makes more sense.

You read all 7 pages?

I'm guessing the grand jury used some of this evidence as a reason not to indict him on any of the nine criminal complaints.

You certainly are guessing. And that's the point.

Some people call taking money in a lawsuit a settlement and not blackmail. Some will say the alleged victims are lying but not question those calling them liars. I wonder how the characters of those accusing the alleged victims stack up against the alleged victims? And I mean of course rich and powerful people would never pay off anyone to lie and undermine their victims.

For as much as people accuse me of believing who I have decided to believe, when the picture becomes clearer they seem to be doing the same thing. They have decided to give validity to those undermining these 22 women.... again.

If there is a "contemporaneous tape recording of a phone conversation," it's tangible evidence. There's no belief involved. It either exists or it doesn't.

And the actual content of that recording that either exists or it doesn't is more critical than its existence.

The spin and believing anyone willing to undermine the victims is out in full force.

Or....some people are willing to wait to see as much evidence as possible before going on a crusade.

I understand you have already renounced your fandom, others would like more time before making a final judgement.

The spin and believing anyone willing to claim assault is also pretty active.

Some of us just want to get to the truth. We're not intent on believing anyone without evidence. The optics and narratives are irrelevant to the truth. What can be verified? A recording is the best evidence I've heard of so far.

If you have a reference to solid evidence of wrongdoing, share it with us.

It's nothing more than conjecture and it's why, likely, nothing ever comes from it. There is no hard evidence, from what I've seen/heard, so it's going to be very difficult to convict.

The Press Conference cannot come soon enough. I need to hear straight from the horse's mouth on this one.

BTW, on the field, Watson is an A+, HR, Franchise QB the likes of which haven't been seen in Cleveland since Otto. I hope he's not Jim Brown off the field.

Let's be clear, The browns don't want to know the WHOLE STORY,,,, Otherwise, they'd have at least talked to the lawyer representing the women as well as the women themselves.., Maybe not all of them, but at least some of them.

If you don't want the whole story, then don't ever look at both sides... And for me, that smells like they just didn't give a damn.

Why do you say that?

I wouldn't expect to hear Watson say much of anything with civil litigation still ongoing. I imagine he will continue to maintain his innocence, say he understands why people have turned on him, but looks forward to truth coming out, reinforce how he's always been an upstanding member of his community and say he looks forward to getting back to football and playing in front of the Dawg Pound.

The Dawg Pound reference is a must for any new player or coach joining the organization!

Well if you are just gonna write it for him...

Why the heck would they talk to the other attorney? They talked to the defense attorney, they read the depositions, they may have spoken to the DA.

They already know what the women and attorney are going to say. I am sure they can read the claims in the court papers.

Agreed. Most people know that it would be ignorant for the team to talk to the other attorney. They would just be opening up themselves to all sorts of problems, including disclosure and putting themselves in a compromising position.

Just so you know the defense does not present evidence to the Grand Jury. The process is not adversarial so Watson was not present and the defense attorney normally wouldnt be either. The Grand Jury made it's decision only on what was the prosecutor said/presented and the one witness testimony.

this is correct.

the function of a Grand Jury is to determine if a criminal case should go forward, based upon the available evidence.

You just answered why the Browns hierarchy didn’t want to know the whole truth around Watson. Maybe his actions can’t be proved in a court of law but they are enough morally disgusting that if the Browns knew about it after their investigation they can’t stand behind such behavior without totally losing the public opinion.

By ignoring listening to these 22 women's personal stories they deflected themselves from future criticism. With finalizing the trade deal before the case is settled and giving the player a monster contract they jumped over the final verdict from these civil law suits and the potential criticism that can come with it. Later they release a vague public statement who gives the impression of them have done a full investigation but in reality the statement told us exactly nothing apart from their wishful thinking. The Browns overall strategy was probably to speed up the thought process of the public opinion by no matter what they knew or not and by going forward with this deal they make the media to talk about this monster deal and it’s consequences instead of the potential questionable character that is surrounding Mr. Watson.

It’s a very smart strategy and it clearly works.

Can you provide evidence that Deshaun Watson is guilty even though he was found innocent in a court of law? Why wasn't this evidence given? Where is it?

I don't know if all these women are being represented by the same lawyer, but if so, that destroys a lot of credibility at least for me. Now, if you had separate women, separate lawyers, all from different areas it would be a little bit easier to believe.

I'm still waiting for evidence that's yet to be provided. Why hasn't it been provided?

I'm confused, I am taking a lot of drugs. You mentioned 10 -15 years committed, I thought we just signed him to 5 years...did I miss something?

No, he was not. Not remotely so.
A grand jury chose to not recommend indictment. Period. That is in no way, shape, or form the same as "found innocent in a court of law". Not even close to being the same thing.

Clearly you didn't read or at least comprehend what else I said in that post...

Let me try again.... if you want to investigate anything, and you want the TRUTH. You must look at both sides....Did they talk to any of those that brought charges against Watson? NO.. Therefore they only got one side of the story. They didn't give a damn about the whole truth otherwise they'd have talked to more than just Watsons side...

Did I help you out there? Do you understand now?

It's a 5 year contract. I think the idea that he remains a Brown for 10-15 years extraordinarily unlikely. Not only is that not the trend in the NFL, Watson's past would seem to indicate he is happy to up and force a move whenever he wants.

Clearly that's the truth... They simply didn't want to know the whole truth so that they could have deniability. And I also agree that it's a great strategy... For those that are Morally bankrupt.

I always thought that the Haslams were shrewd business people.. Can't take a small gas operation and turn it into a titan of the industry without being so.

I didn't think they are Morally bankrupt. And it doesn't matter whose Idea it was... Berry, KS or someone else. The Haslams write the checks so they'd have had to sign off...

I think this is the root of it - they didn't want to know the whole truth because it might lead to a sticky, uncomfortable knowledge. I believe what the Browns did was go through the motions of enough digging to make sure it was unlikely no additional legal issues are going to pop up (that's self preservation and making sure you aren't tipping $230M down the drain) and then they did enough investigating that [1] was one sided enough to guarantee nothing concrete and too unpleasant could be verified [2] they could make a big PR announcement and proclaim to the world that they had done a thorough and deep investigation ... creating the equivalent of plausible deniability if the chit ever did hit the rotating blades that create wind.

It's sort of like selective hearing. From a football and business perspective I don't blame them at all. From a human decency perspective I think it lacks any moral fortitude and circumvents "doing the right thing" that most/many of us would do in our every day lives.

Exactly!

Sounds like you guys have thought this through fully and have it all figured out. Just like when the media took their time to make sure the facts were all in before the Duke rape case was finished. Is this a great country or what?

If you red those exchanges and comments - no one has pronounced Watson guilty or innocent. It's a discussion about how hard Cleveland tried to find the whole truth.

In defense of CLE someone explained that talking to the victims, they might learn something that puts them in a compromising position. Another poster commented that this highlights/answered why the Browns didn't want to know the whole truth. I added my opinion that CLE probably did enough to be sure no other skeletons were going to jump out of the closet - which is smart if you are dropping $250M ... and agreed that they didn't want to learn too much but also wanted to provide the illusion of doing a very deep investigation for PR purposes.

Which part of that do you disagree with?

It is nothing like the Duke story. It's been confirmed Watson met with over 40+ massage therapists. It's been acknowledged he paid for sexual services. What's been claimed by some of the 40 is that he did so without their consent or agreement. Are you announcing that he is innocent? Your reference to Duke seems to suggest that is your belief.

its actually better than being found innocent in a court of law, means we don't see enough here to even merit convening and determining guilt. By overwhelming majority (9 out of 12) This is following up but not response to this part but when you look at the civil charges as well, the basis of claim is he made unwanted sexual advances and forced sexual acts, both of those are criminal felony. So if that is your basis for the civil suits and a criminal court already determined there isn't enough evidence for even probably cause, its going to be a tough row for them. Add in the attempted extortion and Watson's lawyer recommending them go to police, this doesn't look good for them. Now the lawyer has said some dumb things concerning consensual acts which i think will be the grounds of whatever suspension he gets, but as many have pointed out in the media, the NFL usually doesn't suspend for civil matters and will usually wait until everything is wrapped up before meting out punishment. Probably a good chance Watson plays this whole year with the civl cases up in the air

Just because they didn't talk directly to the accusers doesn't mean they didn't acquire access to their recorded depositions or other recordings/evidence. While the fact that the Browns meeting with DeShaun took place in his lawyers office could merely be convenience, there's also the fact that it's privacy was pretty well guaranteed and a lot of evidence (or digital copies of evidence) would have been held at that location.

I don't think paid sexual service has been acknowledged. He paid for massages, and there was also consensual sex. Paying for sex is illegal in Texas. If that had been acknowledged, he would have been charged. I'm not saying that wasn't what happened. However, his admissions don't tie the sex and money together directly.

It's not hard to understand why Browns wouldn't/couldn't gain insightful info from the defense attorney during an active civil suit. Same reason why Watson himself isn't going to say anything insightful right now and during his PC. You're falling for this lawyer's shtick (something he's sorta known for).

I think much of the truth will come out, but patience is required.

That's a fair point from a legal perspective. Regardless of what anyone thinks about the situation - if anyone thinks Watson wasn't paying some of these women for sex, I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.

That might be true under certain circumstances ... but if sexual assault charges end up with a conviction rate of 0.7% I think it's fair to say there are other factors at play. Purple is 100% - the GJ decision by no means indicates innocence.

"100% - the GJ decision by no means indicates innocence."

But yet many of you act as if it means he was guilty. If the GJ had all the evidence, and heard the testimony, and felt no charges should be levied, why are so many hellbent on claiming he is guilty anyway?

After reading some of those quotes by the 'victims", I am feeling more and more inclined to be believe Watson. I don't know what happened, but if a grand jury can't find a reason to charge someone, I would have to believe that there was nothing to be charged with.

As for the "22 women could not be lying" argument, they may not be lying about everything, but when lawyers convince you that if you join in, you could be looking at getting a lot of money, I could see where many could be convinced to embellish their story.

I also believe that if Watson and his lawyers even remotely think they would lose these civil complaints, they would be trying to settle them out of court.

But, like I said before, I don't know and I'm only speculating. But I refuse to condemn the man until he is found guilty in court, not by emotionally charged public opinion.

You don't understand. They can read the depositions of the claimants. They don't need to go back and talk to them.

For that matter, they might even put themself in the position of witness tampering if they did so. Let's get off this idea that the Haslam's or whoever should have gone and talked to anyone other than Watson or Watson's representatives.

j/c...

It's a convenient distraction. Some would like to compare the word of 1 woman to the word of 22 and pretend it's the same thing.

Just 2 general comments:

I have decided that I will have to accept that Watson is our QB .... because I have no choice. I am hoping that he did not do what has been alleged.

It is obvious to all that the Browns and Watson's representatives conspired to minimize any fines resulting from this situation. I wonder if there is anything that stops the NFL from suspending him (if there is cause for a suspension) and imposing a fine on top of that suspension.

I hope that the Browns are right in their belief that he did not do what he has been accused of.

I have not said he is guilty. So you can take the "you" out of your post.

I look at Watson the same way I would a person applying for a high profile job opening with 22 civil cases of sexual harassment hanging over their head. If there was a CEO, Head Techer, Scout Leader applying for a job - with this same situation, you tread carefully. You probably wait for the cases to be cleared before making a decision. The Browns have not done that - and you can make all the excuses in the world for that, but it doesn't change the situation.

Without 100% vindication and being cleared of any wholly and transparently impropriety - there will be a taint to whatever Watson achieves as a Brown. Just like Ben in Pittsburgh. Exactly like Ben in Pittsburgh. And that's with me not particularly caring about the guy paying for consensual sex services from some or all of the 40+ women. Many posters might not be okay with that - to me that is undesirable but not something I would get hung up on. But the key word is consensual.

This is the difficult part in this whole story.

As you say he’s legally innocent until found guilty in a court but at the same time these 22 women bring up uncertainties that’s maybe not illegal but could be highly immoral. That itself, if it’s true, creates a situation where we all have different views how we judge these actions. You see him innocent but maybe other people is highly uncomfortable with that their organization doing business with such a character.

FYI. In my country a famous sports personality like Watson would be dead in a second after such accusations. I mean totally wiped out from any involvement in anything. All sponsors would cancel any sponsorship in a heart beat. All clubs would immediately abandon him from any activities and nobody would touch him until he’s 100% cleared, not only legally but also from a moral standpoint.

I don’t like “our” way of handling these things but trust me that’s how it works in some countries in Scandinavia. The media and the public opinion in these regions is ruthless when it comes to questionable actions against women and our feminist lobbyists would never tolerate the things Mr. Watson is accused of even if he was cleared by the court.

From that perspective the US is better even if is not perfect by any means.