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Prickly.


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Originally Posted by GratefulDawg




Joe Thomas on the Dan Patrick Show Full Interview | 03/22/22

So.....Mortenson's source of the "adult" comment was Joe Thomas??

I kid, I kid.


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Glad to see you're willing to make such bold statements. We have a contract that's worth more than double any other contract Barry has even dealt and it's beyond any possibility to you that such circumstances be taken into consideration. I won't sit here and tell you that you're very wrong. I will say it seems you have chosen not to look at other possibilities due to having your mind made up. No different than me no matter how much you protest.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
It may be wishful thinking, but I'm wondering if the trade cost randomly going up from what both teams put out to when the league made it official was due to the teams getting clarity on impending punishment (or lack thereof.)

I think the trigger to start trade talks was the grand jury decision - and after that all gloves were off. I am doubtful more information came to light from the start of the Watson bidding war to the conclusion a few days later.

interestingly - I've read this week that because only 9 of the 22 sought criminal charges, there is the possibility that others of the 22 pursue criminal charges and a new grand jury could make a different decision!! No idea how likely (I am assuming very, very low) but pause for thought.

There was the announced trade by both teams and then the trade the NFL posted which had us paying more and the Texans giving back less. What changed? To me it's more likely to have been due to something new coming from outside the teams.

I'm not overly concerned with the additional potential criminal charges coming up. I would guess that they brought the "strongest" cases first. It's always a possibility, but I think it's more likely the initial "strong" cases would come back than the others being tried. But, I'm thinking counter suits might be just as likely at this point.
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Specific to the Base Salary year 1 - and no other part of the contract, and without reference to the size of the contract - highlight one thing that is different for DW than the other 4 I looked up and referenced.

If there is no difference... what is it that you are suggesting? Only the base salary impacts DW for any suspension, so there must be something about the base salary year 1 that is different....

Last edited by mgh888; 03/22/22 02:50 PM.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Glad to see you're willing to make such bold statements. We have a contract that's worth more than double any other contract Barry has even dealt and it's beyond any possibility to you that such circumstances be taken into consideration. I won't sit here and tell you that you're very wrong. I will say it seems you have chosen not to look at other possibilities due to having your mind made up. No different than me no matter how much you protest.

It was a franchise QB contract, and the QB had all the leverage.

It was going to be massive and player-friendly whichever team did it.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
It was a franchise QB contract, and the QB had all the leverage.

It was going to be massive and player-friendly whichever team did it.

Exactly. It was structured exactly the way Deshawn wanted it structured because the Browns had zero leverage. As such it's certainly structured in a way that benefits Deshawn if he gets suspended.


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Allegedly, there were a couple teams that came back and were miffed they they couldn't match the contract Browns gave.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
It was a franchise QB contract, and the QB had all the leverage.

It was going to be massive and player-friendly whichever team did it.

Exactly. It was structured exactly the way Deshawn wanted it structured because the Browns had zero leverage. As such it's certainly structured in a way that benefits Deshawn if he gets suspended.

Or just the way DeShaun gets a bunch of money up front, as all players want.


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Since it seems we agree he had all the leverage it's both.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Since it seems we agree he had all the leverage it's both.

Unless he's innocent.


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JC

Why are we so certain Watson even gets a suspension? I am not so sure that bad press is enough to suspend a player.

I am not saying he won't, but what does the NFL have that would warrant such a move? There are charges the DA elected not to pursue. I know there are pending allegations in civil court, but can or should the NFL suspend based on allegations?

I know there are a lot of set opinions around here, but as a what if...what if he didn't do anything?


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Since it seems we agree he had all the leverage it's both.

Unless he's innocent.

Which has no bearing on his leverage in the contract.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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but, if that is the case, you are intimating that 22 women lied, and that can't possibly be true.

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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I know there are a lot of set opinions around here, but as a what if...what if he didn't do anything?

Then 22 women are lying and those are terrible odds.


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Originally Posted by Hammer
but, if that is the case, you are intimating that 22 women lied, and that can't possibly be true.


Called shot!

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I know there are a lot of set opinions around here, but as a what if...what if he didn't do anything?

Then 22 women are lying and those are terrible odds.

Odds only really apply to random occurrences. The women lied or they didn't. Odds don't apply to specific past incidents.

The filings indicate that there is hard evidence of some of the women lying.

I'm not saying all the women are lying. I'm saying your odds are made up.

The odds of 22 random sexual assault accusers lying is probably terrible. The odds of these specific 22 appear to be much higher.


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Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
The odds of 22 random sexual assault accusers lying is probably terrible. The odds of these specific 22 appear to be much higher.

"Appear to be"? Based on what? That they have the same lawyer? No the odds that all 22 of them are lying is not "much higher".


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by Hammer
but, if that is the case, you are intimating that 22 women lied, and that can't possibly be true.


Called shot!

I don't believe that it is possible. I think anyone who believes otherwise is quite naive. The funny part is I don't see you call out anyone who has said they must be prostitutes or attacked their character either.

And that's what makes this so very obvious. People have said terrible things about these women and very few have questioned any of those posts. They only attempt to make excuses why 22 women must be lying and Watson holds no guilt. That speaks volumes. And then they claim that the fact these women didn't immediately report these incidents is some kind of evidence. All you have to do is read these Watson threads to see why women don't. The victims are made out to be the perpetrators. And they know that's what will happen. Woman accuses a wealthy or powerful person? The response will be they are all money grubbers, hookers or of low character because that powerful man couldn't have done what they're accusing him of.

It's shameful.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
The odds of 22 random sexual assault accusers lying is probably terrible. The odds of these specific 22 appear to be much higher.

"Appear to be"? Based on what? That they have the same lawyer? No the odds that all 22 of them are lying is not "much higher".

Based on the fact that the filings talk about a contemporaneous recording of a phone conversation that proves lying.

If they have the evidence they say they have, that would support the GJ's decision to vote no on all charges.

It's hard for me to believe there would be no charges if they lied about having evidence. There's no he said she said there. They either had the evidence or they didn't.

If there were multiple definite liars amongst the 22 random accusers the odds of all them lying would go up from a statistical standpoint.


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Agree, the NFL CAN'T suspend on he said, she said.....Watson would sue and could make MILLIONS. Even if he settles out of court, since when do settlements
equal missed games or game. I'm thinking he MIGHT settle a few and tell the hangers on to get ready to rumble......GO Browns!!!!


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Precedent will likely be a factor...

I can't see the NFL backing off on Watson punishment just because they have a soft place in their heart for him or the Browns. Seems that some believe the Browns structured Watson's contract in a way that might lower the value of Watson's contract during the first year...thus limiting the amount of the cash value which would translate into a much lower financial burden for Watson and his agents.

The NFL might not appreciate all the effort that Watson and the Browns went to in their attempt to protect Watson from the NFL's financial punishment. Maybe the NFL reformulates how they assess Watson's contract value to close any loop-hole that might be attempted.

Maybe the NFL adds more games to Watson's suspension during 2022 instead of trying to collect more of Watson's cash. Maybe the NFL sends a message to NFL franchises that attempt to circumvent the financial punishment by simply adding to the number of games they suspend players who attempt such strategies.





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Proving real life stranger than fiction ... you couldn't make it up if you tried.


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Not sure if this has been brought up yet or not (haven't heard anything about it), but isn't the fully guaranteed part of the contract mostly just a joke?
Unless for some crazy reason the Browns' removed the standard conduct stipulations, the guarantees will void with the suspension...and that man getting suspended.
Obviously no one has read the actual verbiage, but if the guarantees don't void, booo, Andrew.
If they do...I'm back to loving AB.
Adding guarantees to a contract that will void by August (ish) just as so many teams have talented young QB's coming up on their extensions.

"Wah, we want guarantees like Deshaun got" smile

Just a thought.


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Last edited by OldColdDawg; 03/22/22 08:39 PM.

Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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Much of this thread seems like it belongs in the Tailgate forum. Not much football talk. I will stick to football.

The Browns were in a tough spot. In fact, I thought it was hopeless after I saw how much Josh Allen, Burrow, and Herbert progressed. Mahomes was already established. The AFC was/is loaded w/great qbs. We had a dud. Watson is in the group w/QBs such as Rodgers, Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Herbert, and Burrow. He is ahead of the next tier, which includes Prescott.

I think he will flourish in Stefanski's offense and he is going to be playing behind perhaps the best OL in the NFL. I think that the Draft OL at 13 in the Draft forum thread can die now. Watson played behind perhaps the worst OL in the NFL and still lit it up. I also think he will attract free agents. I don't think any WR/TE would have wanted to come here w/Baker as qb.

I do expect him to be suspended. Probably 4-8 games, but 6 seems about right. However, this trade was not just for this year. It's a 10--15 year commitment. It should give us stability at the most important position in professional sports.

I was a Dorsey guy and I still believe Depo screwed him. But Berry has done a very nice job since he took over. I commend the Browns for trying to improve the team.

I do wish we could have made this move before Baker alienated OBJ. Watson w/OBJ and Juice would have been something special. I get the Cooper trade because he is productive and we still had Baker, so no WR would want to sign here. But Cooper is kinda like Baker in that he disappears late in games. The Covid thing also really upset the Cowboys' management last year. Cooper wasn't "all in." He's very talented, but I'd rather have OBJ and Juice.

Regardless, acquiring Watson is a great move for the Browns on the football field and in the locker room.

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The thread titled "Pure football the deal" discusses only the football aspect of Watson trade.


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holy cannoli vers is finally back!


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You seem to lack the understanding that he said she said is something prosecutors usually don't consider strong enough evidence to convict on. So your claim is "There is some evidence that one of them may have lied so they are probably all liars" makes some sort of compelling evidence to you that all 22 are more likely to be lying now?


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Originally Posted by mgh888
Proving real life stranger than fiction ... you couldn't make it up if you tried.

Now we know why Deshawn really changed his mind about coming to Cleveland.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
You seem to lack the understanding that he said she said is something prosecutors usually don't consider strong enough evidence to convict on. So your claim is "There is some evidence that one of them may have lied so they are probably all liars" makes some sort of compelling evidence to you that all 22 are more likely to be lying now?

No, reportedly there is unequivocal evidence that one (perhaps more) of them did lie. From a "mathematical" standpoint, if one of the accusers likelihood goes from the standard low percentage of false accusations to 100 percent, the likelihood of all of them lying goes up a statistically significant amount from a strictly mathematical angle.

But then this isn't a random group, so the low percentage of false accusations may not really have been applicable in the first place.

Probability is best applied when looking at large groups and random samples. When you look at all sexual assault accusers, the chance of randomly picking one that was lying is small. But this situation isn't picking from all accusers, so the broader statistics don't necessarily apply to this specific sample.

I'm not saying it's compelling evidence that they all lied. But, the probability that they all lied goes up with each proven liar. What that probability is, I don't know. However, it is greater than zero. Depending on the evidence, it could be much greater.


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I guess if less than a 4% margin makes you feel better then have at it. And so far you're basing that on "what you heard".


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I guess if less than a 4% margin makes you feel better then have at it. And so far you're basing that on "what you heard".

If by what you heard you mean court documents, then, yes, that's what I'm basing it on. And it's not about how I feel, it's about the "facts."

Last edited by Bull_Dawg; 03/23/22 12:49 PM.

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Well of course it is. Where are those court documents? Or is that what you heard was in them?


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg



or a third option of "let's wait until all the testimony is on record". I also don't mean to belittle any of the accusations, but the posters writing "22 cases of sexual assault" are not accurate. I am not going to research or try to remember how many of the allegations were legally sexual assault and how many were accusations were for much lesser severity. And no, I am not downplaying harassment but I learned plenty from the Duke rape case. A coach was fired, players were lambasted in the media. I remember Nancy Grace going on and on about how we have to "believe this woman". Only to find out it was totally fabricated and the prosecutor and detective manufactured evidence.

Everyone is very emotional now without all facts and testimony clear. I want to know the truth, but I am also willing to wait. If this ends up being a horrible situation for the Browns it certainly won't be the first. But if true, it certainly was horrible for the young women,.

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Originally Posted by FORTBROWNFAN
or a third option of "let's wait until all the testimony is on record".

Maybe someone should have given the Browns that same advice. But since the Browns shouldn't wait on making their decision, we should? And the Nancy grace thing? "We should believe this woman" is nothing even comparable to "We should believe that 22 women are lying".

I'm not suggesting you are saying that, but that's what it would take to act as though nothing happened here. That's in no way a realistic take on things.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Where are those court documents?

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/20619132-deshaun-watson-original-answer

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So it was actually a claim made by his defense team. That makes more sense.


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You read all 7 pages?

I'm guessing the grand jury used some of this evidence as a reason not to indict him on any of the nine criminal complaints.

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