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Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
So, the fact that they opted to not indict doesn't really tell anyone anything except that, at the time, they didn't feel like there was a strong enough case to win.....

Choosing not to charge is nowhere near the same thing as 'innocent', but it's also not nothing, either (especially considering that you have an attorney beating his chest at anyone that'll listen about the mountain of evidence he has).

All attorneys for the plaintiff will do so, and the more publicity there is, the louder the perceived thumping will be, but they don't run the show at a grand jury, the prosecutor does. Any thumping they do is foreplay for the civil case(s).

And, it means nothing, really, because the amount of evidence they have, and how valuable it is, is different whether it is a criminal or a civil case. It is a LOT tougher to get a criminal case to trial than a civil case (which, in my opinion, is probably the biggest of the problems with our tort system and the expansion of tort liability in the US, but that's a separate issue altogether). While a criminal conviction would make his case a slam dunk, a criminal case returning an actual Not Guilty verdict hurts him. The plaintiff attorney's goal here is to win a civil case, which means get a payout. That doesn't require the same stringent requirements as a criminal conviction.


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Originally Posted by rastanplan
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by rastanplan
Choosing not to charge means that there was no evidence of any crime to start with.

Absolutely not true.

For you it isn't, but your and my opinion are completely irrelevant in this or in any case. Its about the judicial system, and the judicial system didn't find proof enough to charge him on the crimes he was being accused, or in any public crimes for that matter.

Correct. There was not enough to pursue prosecution. That is 1000% NOT the same as "there was no evidence of any crime to start with." on any level.


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Originally Posted by rastanplan
Imagine someone telling you that you are not innocent of being a pedophile, because you were never accused of being a pedophile.... makes absolutely no sense.

Imagine committing a crime. You ARE GUILTY of that crime the moment you commit it.
You simply do not get CONVICTED until a court proves your guilt. The entire time up to then, you are and have always been guilty.... even if the prosecution decides they don't have enough to pursue a case against you. Everyone in the world can know/feel you did it, but if nobody can prove it, you cannot be CONVICTED... but, you're STILL GUILTY.


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Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
I'm not going to name any, but that ABSOLUTELY happened on here. There have been, and ARE, people on here that have asserted absolute innocence simply because the Grand Juries chose to not pursue prosecution. It most definitely, 1000% has been posted in these cesspools horse beating pits threads.

Maybe I missed some things early on, but I'm not seeing people professing absolute innocence. I see a lot of people being accused of victim blaming/shaming because they want to see some evidence or findings from the civil trial before passing judgment though.

Nope, I saw it too, early on. I think it was more the hype that we got this gunslinger than anything driving it, but it was there for all to see, in that moment. GLEEFULLY EMBRACING DW with this cloud over his head because the grand jury did not indict. But I can't really ridicule those guys for mostly wanting a QB they think is better than Baker. IMO, the OBJ debacle and Baker's injury snowballed into something we will all eventually regret as Browns fans, unless DW is innocent AND great on the field. At least nobody has posted EXONERATED, like a troll.

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Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by rastanplan
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by rastanplan
Choosing not to charge means that there was no evidence of any crime to start with.

Absolutely not true.

For you it isn't, but your and my opinion are completely irrelevant in this or in any case. Its about the judicial system, and the judicial system didn't find proof enough to charge him on the crimes he was being accused, or in any public crimes for that matter.

Correct. There was not enough to pursue prosecution. That is 1000% NOT the same as "there was no evidence of any crime to start with." on any level.

There were no evidences of the crimes he was charged, nor any evidence of public crimes, on which he would have to be charged no matter what he was accused off.

"Imagine committing a crime. You ARE GUILTY of that crime the moment you commit it." No you are not, you still have to be convicted, that is how our society works, and honestly I don't see how it could be any different.

Some actions are crimes in one country or state and are legal in others, that does not make you innocent in one state and guilty in other, its not how it works.

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We can only discuss this maters on a legal framework, if we start discussing it on ethics anything is valid.

For many even the act of seeking for sensual massages is a "crime", for others prostitution poses no ethical problems.

I personally fail to see anything criminal in his actions, its not a thing I would do, but we are all adults here, we know how this stuff works. Did he assault or rape any of the girls? From what we know so far, no, at least for me, I do not think asking for an happy ending to a masseur should be considered harassment.

But its mostly a personal opinion, and still so far what I understand happened was very far away from criminal, armful, conduct.

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Originally Posted by rastanplan
There were no evidences of the crimes he was charged, nor any evidence of public crimes, on which he would have to be charged no matter what he was accused off.
False claim. The only thing you can claim based on them not pursuing prosecution is that there wasn't enough evidence to support prosecution. Claiming "there was NO EVIDENCE" is an absolute falsification of the circumstance.


Originally Posted by rastanplan
Some actions are crimes in one country or state and are legal in others, that does not make you innocent in one state and guilty in other, its not how it works.

This is a silly remark.
If you commit a crime - thus, by definition you have done something somewhere it is illegal to do that - , you have committed a crime and you are GUILTY of that crime regardless of whether or not anyone is able to CONVICT you of it. Period.
Your attempt to deflect with location is immaterial because it is covered in the opening statement of "If you commit a crime...".


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Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by rastanplan
There were no evidences of the crimes he was charged, nor any evidence of public crimes, on which he would have to be charged no matter what he was accused off.
False claim. The only thing you can claim based on them not pursuing prosecution is that there wasn't enough evidence to support prosecution. Claiming "there was NO EVIDENCE" is an absolute falsification of the circumstance.


Originally Posted by rastanplan
Some actions are crimes in one country or state and are legal in others, that does not make you innocent in one state and guilty in other, its not how it works.

This is a silly remark.
If you commit a crime - thus, by definition you have done something somewhere it is illegal to do that - , you have committed a crime and you are GUILTY of that crime regardless of whether or not anyone is able to CONVICT you of it. Period.
Your attempt to deflect with location is immaterial because it is covered in the opening statement of "If you commit a crime...".

So it would be Ok for the police to send you a speeding ticket?

For sure you are guilty of speeding, we all are.

Guilt and innocence are judicial terms, they can be applied in other planes, but in that case discussion is mostly immaterial. You think he is guilty, I think I'm not the one who should determine if he is guilty or not, I trust the system and think that is how things should be decided. I think you should only receive the speeding tickets the police has proof.

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No, this is a message board, we can - and likely will - discuss it on all levels, and because we are not a court of law, we are free to express how we feel as it pertains to our perceptions of the situation. We are NOT bound by the same constraints that a court room is bound. We CAN, and as people, probably SHOULD, blend the legal and the ethical and the moral in our discussions. The legal part is that in no way does a lack of pursuit of prosecution dictate absolute innocence. It is indeterminate of guilt. He can absolutely still be guilty of something without any pursuit of a conviction. Really, until and unless the legal aspect changes, that is the beginning and end of the "official" legal aspect. That leaves us our moral and ethical stances, and our opinions of whether or not there is true guilt in there, regardless of whether or not it is ever proven.


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Originally Posted by rastanplan
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by rastanplan
There were no evidences of the crimes he was charged, nor any evidence of public crimes, on which he would have to be charged no matter what he was accused off.
False claim. The only thing you can claim based on them not pursuing prosecution is that there wasn't enough evidence to support prosecution. Claiming "there was NO EVIDENCE" is an absolute falsification of the circumstance.


Originally Posted by rastanplan
Some actions are crimes in one country or state and are legal in others, that does not make you innocent in one state and guilty in other, its not how it works.

This is a silly remark.
If you commit a crime - thus, by definition you have done something somewhere it is illegal to do that - , you have committed a crime and you are GUILTY of that crime regardless of whether or not anyone is able to CONVICT you of it. Period.
Your attempt to deflect with location is immaterial because it is covered in the opening statement of "If you commit a crime...".

So it would be Ok for the police to send you a speeding ticket?

For sure you are guilty of speeding, we all are.

Guilt and innocence are judicial terms, they can be applied in other planes, but in that case discussion is mostly immaterial. You think he is guilty, I think I'm not the one who should determine if he is guilty or not, I trust the system and think that is how things should be decided. I think you should only receive the speeding tickets the police has proof.

They do it to people all the time with Red Light Cameras.
That is them accusing me of a crime. I then have a right to defend myself and it is on them to prove the guilt they have accused me of.


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I think I'm not the one who should determine if he is guilty or not
You're not. That would be the job of a judge and jury. That, however, does not preclude you from forming your own opinion of the situation independent of them based on what is known, regardless of whether or not it ever goes to a trial. You ARE allowed to think for yourself and not take the system's word. People can, and do, commit crimes all the time that they get away with. They are still guilty of those crimes, they just aren't convicted of them. This is why a judgement is "Not Guilty" and not "Innocent". O.J. Simpson went through a long, drawn out trial and was found "Not Guilty".... that does not stop me, at all, from feeling that he did it; from feeling that he is Guilty and not believing that he is "Innocent".


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
He has beat the drum of "you think 22 women are lying" to death. Now he that he wants to change his stand and admit that some could be lying in the group he also wants to change the history.

He was quite snarky to me about it, directly. So no, not assumptions. Point blank crappy to me. I don't suffer a bully, and that is what he has been with this, or at least tried to be if he wasn't so laughable at it.

Making stupid claims doesn't help your cause. The fact you can't comprehend that by saying "you think 22 women are lying" means that those professing watson's innocence or possible innocence are dismissing the word of all 22 women is a you problem. It sounds like you're a bit sensitive and obtuse. If you believe any portion of those women watson isn't innocent. Dee, dee dee!


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Originally Posted by jfanent
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You just have to read the threads to see the people saying he is innocent because the Grand Jury refused to indict him. 10 people on this forum? Maybe close to it.

Name them.

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1934866/re-trade-for-watson-2#Post1934866 Tastybrownies - Can you provide evidence that Deshaun Watson is guilty even though he was found innocent in a court of law?

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1933671/re-trade-for-watson-2#Post1933671 Rastaplan - Any criminal actions, i.e. any actions that could constitute a crime, which was what he was being acused.

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1933617/re-trade-for-watson-2#Post1933617 DeisleDawg - we know the court system has found him innocent.

I skimmed 3 threads in 5 minutes, didn't link every time new comments were made by same person. Not going to bother with the rest because even if it is in front of some people's eyes they wont admit it...

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Those comments do not read as if they are proclaiming him innocent. I think most people are saying they don't know if he innocent or guilty and that they will allow the legal system to decide. On the other hand, there are others proclaiming him guilty. Maybe if you would open your eyes and see the word Predator screaming at us several times a day and "so, 22 women are all lying" repeated 22,222 times, you would see that. Damn, I gottta get out of this thread.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
That is NOT what he's saying. He trots out that line whenever anyone has any sort of differing perspective on the cases (and I remind you, these are pending cases... nothing has been resolved). He's equating any sort of argument against guilt as "all 22 are lying". So anyone who's not volunteering for the firing squad automatically takes the position that all 22+ women are liars, hookers, etc. You can't suggest or discuss any sort alternate theory without picking up a label. Since we're on a message board, that's totally ridiculous.

So explain to me what alternatives you're speaking of? The main ones I've seen are...

1. All these women are on Instagram in regards to claims they're pretty much all a bunch of hookers.

2. They're not licensed massage therapists. (Which as been shown to be totally false. Some were not but many were.)

3. Their attorney is a scum bag. (An attorney who has handled many high profile cases with great success)

Let me explain to you what they wish to ignore.

It has been shown that licensed massage therapists within the Houston community were sent out a warning about watson's conduct. It has been shown he chose to meet these women at a posh hotel who had licensed massage therapists on staff. It has been shown that watson had used a far greater number of massage therapists than other players.

One side keeps throwing out wild accusations. The other side points to factual events.

So yes, either you must feel everyone of these women are lying or you must feel watson is guilty on some level.


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Originally Posted by oobernoober
One thing I struggle to keep straight is that there are 2 parallel conversations/situations going on here. The legal one and the moral/ethical one. Those do overlap, but only to a certain extent. I have no doubt Watson did stuff that was wrong, but don't know how wrong it was, much less if it was illegal (hence the "he's a creep, but..." argument).

I can see that. I can also see where people that think something is creepy may not also understand some of what they see as creepy things are also illegal. I'll use the towel accusation as an example. Where it's alleged he brought a very small towel rather than use the therapists towel which was much larger to cover himself. It was used as a means to expose himself. This was actually sent out in a message to other therapists to warn them about this behavior. To purposefully expose your genitals to someone else in an unwanted fashion, isn't just creepy, it's a crime.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Those comments do not read as if they are proclaiming him innocent. I think most people are saying they don't know if he innocent or guilty and that they will allow the legal system to decide. On the other hand, there are others proclaiming him guilty. Maybe if you would open your eyes and see the word Predator screaming at us several times a day and "so, 22 women are all lying" repeated 22,222 times, you would see that. Damn, I gottta get out of this thread.

Yet you just can't seem to pull yourself away since it's a great way of coming at me. Nah, you won't leave it.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Those comments do not read as if they are proclaiming him innocent. I think most people are saying they don't know if he innocent or guilty and that they will allow the legal system to decide. On the other hand, there are others proclaiming him guilty. Maybe if you would open your eyes and see the word Predator screaming at us several times a day and "so, 22 women are all lying" repeated 22,222 times, you would see that. Damn, I gottta get out of this thread.

Wow.

It's English.

"we know the court system has found him innocent." can't be much clearer can it?

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Silly me. I woke up, waited for some people that are working in our home, then I went to work, and I came home and had to read 2 pages of this stuff. (didn't HAVE to, but I skimmed them).

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I'm tired of re-explaining the same points to you over and over just for you to fall back on your twisting of what I'm saying into something ridiculous to make your argument look better.

1. The social media thing (as well as the unlicensed thing) COULD be indicative that these massages are really just him trolling for sex (pretty much him trying to solicit sex in a state that doesn't allow it). This is NOT me saying all accusers are prostitutes. I'm saying some or many COULD have been on board with the "w/ benefits" package of the massage for several reasons.

2. I don't know what the breakdown was between licensed and unlicensed. Between this and the social media thing (IMO) it points to a pattern (he WASN'T looking for treatment for his muscles). Whether the women involved may or may not have been on board with what he was really looking for (DW's argument is not that nothing happened, but that it was consensual) is the question.

3. Many articles have been linked on here regarding Buzbee's past erratic and attention-seeking behavior. At this point, trying to frame him and his actions as a talented lawyer on a crusade for justice is simply willful ignorance on your part.

I don't know if any of this was the case, but I do think it's well within the realm of possibility. I HIGHLY doubt all 22 fall one way or another, but what if some accusations fall out due to point 1, some more to point 2, maybe more to point 3, etc.... your 22 is now 15, 10, 5, etc. Still not 'ok', but for those that have been beating the "22 women can't all be wrong" horse to death for the past 6 weeks, it's problematic.


And as for your explanation... if the warning was out there on DW, then why did these women continue to take his appointments? Not saying it's right, but you try to frame these circumstances as "factual events" when they won't hold up under any sort of scrutiny.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
He has beat the drum of "you think 22 women are lying" to death. Now he that he wants to change his stand and admit that some could be lying in the group he also wants to change the history.

He was quite snarky to me about it, directly. So no, not assumptions. Point blank crappy to me. I don't suffer a bully, and that is what he has been with this, or at least tried to be if he wasn't so laughable at it.

Making stupid claims doesn't help your cause. The fact you can't comprehend that by saying "you think 22 women are lying" means that those professing watson's innocence or possible innocence are dismissing the word of all 22 women is a you problem. It sounds like you're a bit sensitive and obtuse. If you believe any portion of those women watson isn't innocent. Dee, dee dee!


Poppycock. You beat a drum incessantly, you move goal posts constantly, redefine words to mean new an imaginative things, fail to realize things you said have meanings other than what you later claim they mean ,and you really are only here for the fight.

Do you think this whole thing is so black and white and it is all or nothing? I know, you will answer about what you had for dinner and why people shouldn't go to the moon.

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Originally Posted by oobernoober
I'm tired of re-explaining the same points to you over and over just for you to fall back on your twisting of what I'm saying into something ridiculous to make your argument look better.

Sorry I didn't clarify that my comments weren't referring to you specifically. I should have made that clear.

Quote
1. The social media thing (as well as the unlicensed thing) COULD be indicative that these massages are really just him trolling for sex (pretty much him trying to solicit sex in a state that doesn't allow it). This is NOT me saying all accusers are prostitutes. I'm saying some or many COULD have been on board with the "w/ benefits" package of the massage for several reasons.

And as I posted earlier I'm not trying to say some of these women may not be questionable. My assertion isn't that all 22 of these women are being totally honest or above board.

Quote
2. I don't know what the breakdown was between licensed and unlicensed. Between this and the social media thing (IMO) it points to a pattern (he WASN'T looking for treatment for his muscles). Whether the women involved may or may not have been on board with what he was really looking for (DW's argument is not that nothing happened, but that it was consensual) is the question.

What we do know is that enough of these women were licensed and concerned with his behavior that there was a message sent out warning other massage therapists of his conduct.

Quote
3. Many articles have been linked on here regarding Buzbee's past erratic and attention-seeking behavior. At this point, trying to frame him and his actions as a talented lawyer on a crusade for justice is simply willful ignorance on your part.

First, there is nothing that shows he isn't a very talented lawyer. I certainly think that part of your comment is an overreach. Secondly there is nothing concerning his law career that indicates he takes on baseless claims or manufactures witnesses which is the part of the argument against him that I find to be baseless. From that to the claims that every lawyer who presents victims in civil court are scum bags like the ambulance chasers you hear about. That's simply not true.

Quote
I don't know if any of this was the case, but I do think it's well within the realm of possibility. I HIGHLY doubt all 22 fall one way or another, but what if some accusations fall out due to point 1, some more to point 2, maybe more to point 3, etc.... your 22 is now 15, 10, 5, etc. Still not 'ok', but for those that have been beating the "22 women can't all be wrong" horse to death for the past 6 weeks, it's problematic.

How so? If 15 are left, or if 10 are left, it still doesn't mean all 22 are liars. It means some of the women who are actually lying have been weeded out. Can you explain how your scenario means they are all lying? I'll refer you back to my comments on point 1.


Quote
And as for your explanation... if the warning was out there on DW, then why did these women continue to take his appointments? Not saying it's right, but you try to frame these circumstances as "factual events" when they won't hold up under any sort of scrutiny.

So it's your assertion since there were a number of massage therapists which were warned, that means all massage therapists were warned?

Quote
"Warnings about Watson had been percolating in the Houston massage therapy community for some time. Some were mundane—he was a last-minute booker, do not expect a tip. Others were far more troubling. Two LMTs told SI they were warned last year by others in their profession about Watson’s inappropriate conduct, including his making sexually explicit motions on the table or insisting on using a small towel that would inadequately cover his genital area, rather than the standard massage draping."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...age-therapists-detailed-in-new-si-report

Unless of course SI is lying about this being told to them about comments received from two licensed massage therapists.


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Poppycock. You beat a drum incessantly, you move goal posts constantly, redefine words to mean new an imaginative things, fail to realize things you said have meanings other than what you later claim they mean ,and you really are only here for the fight.

Do you think this whole thing is so black and white and it is all or nothing? I know, you will answer about what you had for dinner and why people shouldn't go to the moon.

I repeat, do you think all 22 women are lying? Is English your first language?


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Poppycock. You beat a drum incessantly, you move goal posts constantly, redefine words to mean new an imaginative things, fail to realize things you said have meanings other than what you later claim they mean ,and you really are only here for the fight.

Do you think this whole thing is so black and white and it is all or nothing? I know, you will answer about what you had for dinner and why people shouldn't go to the moon.

I repeat, do you think all 22 women are lying? Is English your first language?

Do you think that 22 women are telling the truth?

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This seems like a round-about way of proving the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Are you guys almost done?


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
Do you think that 22 women are telling the truth?

How many times do you expect me to answer that question? This is the last time. No


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Who's on first?


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Originally Posted by FATE
. Are you guys almost done?

PLEASE !!!!


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Do you think that 22 women are telling the truth?

How many times do you expect me to answer that question? This is the last time. No

And yet you accuse people of thinking all of them are lying. Maybe you should reflect on that, maybe think about it, maybe realize it isn't just about the women that have accused Watson.

To be fair I am surprised you could come up with a direct answer, actually feel like we are making some progress.

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The answer had been answered and explained before more than once. The problem is you couldn't quite grasp it until it was answered with a two letter word.

Maybe you should think about the fact that unless you believe all 22 of them are lying watson isn't innocent. In this situation it absolutely is just about only the 22 women that have accused watson.

To believe that in a group of women that large that all of them are either lying or telling the truth is something only someone that isn't being rational would believe.

And for those of you tired of hearing about it, nobody is forcing you to read the thread. It seems like you have chosen to read something you don't want to read then whining about it as if someone forced you to. You know what's going on and you have a choice. Whining about it is not attractive.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by oobernoober
I don't know if any of this was the case, but I do think it's well within the realm of possibility. I HIGHLY doubt all 22 fall one way or another, but what if some accusations fall out due to point 1, some more to point 2, maybe more to point 3, etc.... your 22 is now 15, 10, 5, etc. Still not 'ok', but for those that have been beating the "22 women can't all be wrong" horse to death for the past 6 weeks, it's problematic.

How so? If 15 are left, or if 10 are left, it still doesn't mean all 22 are liars. It means some of the women who are actually lying have been weeded out. Can you explain how your scenario means they are all lying? I'll refer you back to my comments on point 1.

It does not mean they are all lying. The line of thinking I'm attacking here is the one that largely establishes guilt due to there being 22 accusers who share a similar story... that since there are so many, you can't really argue with what they're saying. Well, what if that number starts going down? Yes, you still have pending cases, but he's less the debate-dominating monster and more just another pro athlete with a problem assuming they could do whatever they want and get away with it. The NFL (and other leagues) are full of these characters. It's not right, but it's reality.


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And yet Watson is innocent until proven otherwise.

Crazy, but that is how it actually works.

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You explained exactly how what I admit to could happen. I admit that it's unlikely they're all telling the truth. You explained ways with which that may eliminate some of those women. Which means the likelihood of the remaining women being truthful actually becomes more likely.

I would say it may very well be found that those who are licensed massage therapists end up being far more credible than those who are not. What my argument is, if it hasn't already been made clear, is to make the point that you either think they're all liars or you don't. The fact that some of them may be has never been the point. So your point that the less times you act like a monster the less of a monster you are? I made my point by using the totality. And if that totality breaks down to 10 or 15 of them the point isn't really any different. If they can't be eliminated by the very things you presented, that eliminates almost every obstacle posters have presented to depict them as lairs.


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Originally Posted by FrankZ
And yet Watson is innocent until proven otherwise.

Crazy, but that is how it actually works.

In your mind. Don't you mean that's the legal burden? I notice you have refused to address any of the points I brought up. I wonder why that is?

So you think O.J. is innocent?


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I did answer your question, when you asked it.

I will leave the burden of figuring that out to you.

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IMHO, the main issue you all are missing is the so called "consensual" part that keeps rearing its ugly head. Once they get swore testimony in court that there was an understanding of "sex" of some type to be included in the paid for service then you have admitted "prostitution" and "soliciting prostitution" which would be a felony in the state of Texas due to the number occurrences. These women that are giving "sworn depositions" are clearly aware that admitting that it was "consensual" for pay are opening themselves up to felony criminal prosecution.

If we go back to the Kraft problem in Florida, Kraft's charges were eventually dropped because the video evidence was obtained illegally. However, the 21 sites that were targeted in the sting are still dealing with the fines, court costs, and convictions of the workers for "prostitution."

If it becomes known that some of these women were providing the "sex" service as part of the session and were paid for it, Watson's problems are just beginning in the state of Texas. Since the court has ordered Watson's team to provide a list of every massage he received since 2019, there's going to be a whole lot more depositions being taken from women involved with Watson. Considering his own attorney has stated that Watson receives 125-150 massages per year, that would mean a list of close to 300 massages with various women. You can bet that that total of women is much greater than the 40 that are currently know about. That list is due to the court in about a week.

IMHO, the ugly has just started for the Cleveland Browns and Watson. However, Watson is innocent until proven guilty but from the outside looking in - It Don't Look Good!


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
And yet Watson is innocent until proven otherwise.

Crazy, but that is how it actually works.

In your mind. Don't you mean that's the legal burden? I notice you have refused to address any of the points I brought up. I wonder why that is?

So you think O.J. is innocent?

He was found not guilty....so innocent is a word that works

Last edited by Ballpeen; 04/28/22 06:34 PM.

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Originally Posted by FATE
This seems like a round-about way of proving the truth lies somewhere in the middle. Are you guys almost done?


Maybe switch to a less controversial subject? Like Baker Mayfield?

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He wasn't found not guilty. He's never been in front of a judge. As of now the first times that will happen will be in these civil cases.


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Will the recent trend established by Major League Baseball concerning sexual abuse allegations have an impact on similar cases against NFL players..?

GOOD QUESTION...

Major League Baseball and their commissioner, Rob Manfred appear to leading all major sports leagues when it comes to how seriously they take sexual assault type issues. Manfred and MLB appear to setting the standard when it comes to the investigation of sexual assault cases as well as setting a standard for handing out punishment to their players who are involved in sexual assault type issues.

The NFL might be forced to make some serious decisions in cases similar to those that MLB just faced.




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Originally Posted by FrankZ
And yet Watson is innocent until proven otherwise.

Crazy, but that is how it actually works.
[quote=FrankZ]
No, it’s not. The grand jury decides if there is enough evidence to bring a case to court. That is in no way a definition of innocent.

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