DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum More Baker... the slow trek to the end

I was interested in the context of the Johnson Tweet .... The way it is being presented, it looks like it was a reaction to losing the game after 4 interceptions.

But the game kicked off at 4:30 pm (assuming it was on time) and the tweet went out at 5:12 p.m. .... so maybe sometime early in the 2nd Q ? So the tweet could easily have been a reaction to Baker's 2 interceptions at that point? Or maybe - a bit like the Manning's - it's possible it was a reaction to how well the Browns ran the ball but stopped running? idk. I'm just interested in how this tweet is used to crucify Baker when there is other possible explanations.

In the GB Chubb ran 17 times for an average of 7.4 yards. Johnson ran 4 times for an average of 14.5 yards. Schwartz had 2 runs at 12 yards per. A total of 23 called run plays at an average of 9 yards per carry .... Baker threw the Ball 36 times, including 4 horrible interceptions. I think this is why some of Stefanski's play calling has been questioned. It was a similar-ish story on the MNF game and why Manning's were incredulous we were passing and leaving TJ Watt 1 on 1 ... And just so we are clear - before the liars start to distort things - no-one is saying Baker's horrible play was Stefanki's fault. But I think it's fair to wonder why you have a QB playing badly and you throw the ball 36 times when your running game is ridiculously successful. And it's entirely possible "Run the Damn Ball" was a reflection of that in addition to the frustration with the QB play.

It does make one wonder how when your QB is injured and performing poorly as your running game is killing it that the HC feels the need to insist on heavily passing the ball. I don't think Stefanski is a bad HC. I actually see it as this FO may have already made the decision to move on from Mayfield and forcing him to throw a lot with an injured shoulder to help make him look bad would certainly help convince those who needed a nudge. Doing so would certainly help sway the fan base to move on from him. It certainly seems to have helped convince fans of it.

So if that was the FO's plans it worked.

In reference to the Packer's game, it was Rodgers who said, "the Browns are not calling the plays to make Mayfield successful." When you have Peyton, Eli, and Rodgers questioning Stefanski's play calling along with numerous analysts during the season - "We have a problem Houston!"

That part as it pertains to Mayfield is immaterial now since they traded for Watson. However, it doesn't change the fact that Stefanski has had issues with multiple players because of the scheme and play calling he does. Cousins, Diggs, OBJ, and now Mayfield that we know about. I suppose you could add JJ in there too with the "Run the Damn Ball" comment. Those of you thinking that his mindset will change now because he has Watson are most likely in for a rude awakening. IMHO, I expect to see a much different Watson from what we all seen in Houston. It will be clearly obvious and disheartening to those that think they are getting the Watson of 2020 because in my opinion, Stefanski would never allow that type of QB play from a Stefanski Led Team. Stay tuned.............................

You only tell parts of stories and then make definitive claims. For example, Diggs didn't want out of Minni because of Stefanski. He wanted out because the Vikings made a concentrated effort to run the ball more. Zimmer brought in Kubiak to help and then ordered that they pass less and run more. That decision was on Zimmer, not Stefanski. I didn't really want Stefanski here, but he has an excellent scheme and his play calling is good. He is well respected by almost all football people. Guys like Cosell talk about it. In fact, when asked if Stefanski's scheme will be good for Watson, Cosell replied that Stefanski's scheme would be good for any qb. Another example is OBJ. You say he wanted out because of Stefanski? No, he wanted out because of Baker. Cousins? I read that Cousins had problems w/DeFilippo and that his relationship w/Stefanski was good.

Stefanski did a ton to mask Baker's weaknesses. The 12 and even 22 personnel packages helped the running game. This led to more play action passes and Baker is pretty damn good at play action. He booted Baker a lot so he could have better vision and so his reads were limited. But, teams learn. They make adjustments. Advanced stats tell us that Baker is among the very worst in the league as a drop-back pocket passer. This past season, teams game planned to keep Baker in the pocket. They knew to get their hands up and that he would become inaccurate and he also has terrible pocket presence. Balls often sailed high as a result. Hell, TJ Watt was quoted about it.

Furthermore, if Baker was truly hindered by such terrible scheming and a poor supporting cast, wouldn't other GMs across the league recognize that and try to trade for him? This morning, Louis Riddick, who is a former Director of Player Personnel, described Baker as a "dependent qb." He said that he needs everything right around him. A great OL, strong running game, play action passing, etc. He also brought up how bad Baker's in the pocket passer rating has been.

Honestly I think this is all you need to state because it's factual and irrefutable. The rest of your post is speculation and allows folks to deflect and argue some of the speculation. It let's them reinvent history and claim OBJ wanted to leave because of Baker when in fact it's been settled that OBJ never wanted to be in CLE.

I think Stefanski is an excellent coach. He's not perfect and he's certainly shown a somewhat concerning trend of questionable in game decisions and play calling. For that I think it's justifiable to look at a game where we ran the ball at 9 yards per carry and end up calling 56% more pass plays than run plays ... We don't know what he is going to do with Watson and projecting based on the Vikings or the last 2 years with Baker is an exercise in futility imo - 2019 it was a new playbook and mechanics for Baker, 2020 Baker was injured for 16 games. We don't need to project into the future in order to talk about the facts of the past. In fact it seems to hurt the debate.

** Edit - not only was Baker hurt for 16 games in 2020, the OL, the WR, the RB and TE's were all heavily impacted by injury. Limiting what KS could do and call ... I am going from memory, but wasn't there a game when we might have only had 3 or maybe 4 active WR on the bench including Schwartz? Njoku was the top target in the game and only deep threat? (a comment Troy Aikmen made).

Yeah, calling 36 pass plays with him having a bum shoulder while continuing to throw int's. as opposed to 23 run plays while the run game was smashing it. Is that how he hid his weaknesses? Look man, anyone can go around and find sources that back up the picture they want to paint. I'm not really trying to fault you for that. And I don't think it was Stefnaski who made the call to make Baker look like crap with that type pf play calling. But for god's sake man, pretending that kind of BS didn't happen is crazy.

Article I read today put a thought into my head: it said that teams weren't going to do any favors for the Browns when it comes to Mayfield, perhaps in league circles they are very PO'd about the Watson contract and as some sort of punishment are going to let the Browns have to pay his BM's salary and cut him. I dunno but seems plausible

Mayfield is injured, and still not fully healed from injury.

For whatever reason, when he was hurt last season, his play went into the toilet.

He is due a guaranteed (almost) $19 million.

That really is all. If an NFL team felt that Mayfield was a good investment, given these factors, one would have traded fpr him.

I don't see the correlation. I know that the Rat's owner was mad because he is trying to sign Lamar. Others may be, too. However, I don't think it is even feasible to say that a team would not trade for a qb they believe in just to spite another team.

NFL has been fighting fully guaranteed contracts as seen in other sports for decades. There is undoubtedly an enormous amount of angst by the rest of the NFL owners towards Cleveland. How far it extends and what it might mean for Baker / Haslam / Watson? I don't know. My fear is a punitive ban for DW - 10 weeks. We'll see how it all shakes out.

I think you are both right.

Vers, I agree that if a team believed in Baker they wouldn't hesitate to trade for him. But if he was believe-in-able, then we wouldn't have felt the need to trade for DW. Baker is in the "let's take a chance on him" category. So I can see some of them not being willing to take that chance on Baker to "punish" the Browns.

Maybe I am more likely to believe in that possibility because I am more vengeful and spiteful than you are. I could totally see myself doing that unless I got a real sweet deal.

I agree. There might be some feelings to punish the browns, but in the end, winning games would win out.

If teams felt signing Baker was a good investment, they would/will sign him. Right now, teams don't see the value in trading for the guy, be it they don't think he is the answer, would cost too much, or won't trade a pick because in the end they know they don't have to trade a pick.

Teams don't see any demand for Bakers services, so they know it won't cost much in a bidding war once he is a FA, so teams will wait it out.

IMO, if Bakers salary was half of what it is he'd be wearing a different uniform right now although we'd probably still have to pay half of that salary.

I think part of the difficulty in moving Baker is similar to the reason Drew Brees didn't end up in Miami. A QB with shoulder issues is a risky bet. Hopefully, we'll see some action once he's cleared to play.

Baker's a great natural thrower of the football. Unfortunately, being able to throw and knowing where to throw are two different things. He seems to focus too much on his workouts and not enough on his study/processing. Unless he figures out a better balance, he's going to turn himself into Brady Quinn. If he figures it out, he could be pretty good. Unfortunately, he seems to have a tendency to burn bridges, and he seems to think that he knows better than everyone else.

NFL owners reportedly upset with Browns over Deshaun Watson trade

Steve DelVecchio, Larry Brown Sports - Mar 29
link

The Cleveland Browns proved they are not concerned about the sexual assault allegations against Deshaun Watson when they gave up several draft picks and signed him to a massive extension. That apparently did not sit well with the rest of the NFL.

Peter King of NBC Sports wrote in his weekly column on Monday that Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam were “not the most popular people” at the league meetings over the weekend. One NFL team executive said trading six draft picks for Watson and then giving him an $80 million raise — all guaranteed — is a move that “stinks to high heaven” for the league.

According to Mike Florio of Pro Football Talk, several teams are likely unhappy with the structure of Watson’s contract. The Browns gave Watson a five-year, $230 million contract that is fully guaranteed. The NFL’s Management Council had previously urged teams to avoid guaranteeing so much money into future years. Now, star players may expect teams to hand out long-term, fully guaranteed contracts.

It should be noted that the Browns were not the only team that aggressively pursued Watson. Winning is all most NFL teams care about. Once a grand jury declined to indict Watson, several teams tried hard to acquire him.

The contract itself likely bothers teams more than anything. Watson claims it was not a factor in him choosing the Browns, but we already explained why that is an outrageous claim. Cleveland may have broken an unwritten NFL rule by recklessly changing the quarterback market.

i really dont care if the owners are upset with what we did. clearly there were other owners willing to match what we gave watson. dudes just acting salty.

with regards to baker, dude isn't even gonna be healthy going into any training camp, comes with an 18 mill price tag, and then to make it worse, won't keep his mouth shut.

right now, i can't really come up with any reason why a team who might need a QB would choose him over Jimmy G right now.

and one thing i dont see talked about is what was Baker's trade value even before watson got here? is it possible AB tried to move off Baker before the trade and couldn't because no teams really wanted all those problems? then it just got worse after we got Watson?

i mean damn even Mariota and Trubisky got snatched up before he did.

Really? Then why did he choose Cleveland AFTER saying they were out of the running? The night life and balmy weather?

what? after we offered watson that contract and he chose us, reports came out that teams were upset that Watson didn't give them a chance to match the contract offer. this is established already.

so it doesn't matter what if the other owners are salty about it. so what?

So other teams never actually matched the Browns FO offer. And can you show me a single source claiming they "would have matched" the Browns offer? Not saying it doesn't exist but I've never seen one. Saying they never got the chance to do so doesn't mean they would have done so.

I wonder of the Browns made the playoffs last year
Would have the front office moved on from Baker this year?
I think the Browns probally would have faced the Chiefs

According to Jason Lloyd of The Athletic, Watson's camp "never shopped" the five-year, $230 million contract the quarterback ultimately signed with the Browns.

Per that report: "When the stunning announcement was made that Watson was headed to Cleveland and contract details emerged, one team called and asked why it wasn't given an opportunity to match—because, they insisted, they would have. The answer: Watson wanted to go to Cleveland. His only hurdle had been moving to a city where he'd never really been before."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...-watsons-browns-contract-if-given-chance

so again this was widely reported on. which means there was at least 1 owner out there who wanted watson still. there were also 4 owners who signed off on a trade agreement to speak to watson, 2 owners who wanted to talk to watson but were denied, and some owners who at least tried to ask about him. so at this point i dont even know what point of contention you're struggling with, but ok.

so it doesn't matter if owners are ticked at the final price tag we gave watson. they're not ticked we traded for him and resigned him. they are ONLY ticked at the price tag. they're not ticked about the funny structure when it comes to dodgy pay for suspension. they're ticked about the structure when it comes to guaranteed money combined with what we traded.

that's MY point of the post i made when i saw that same article about unhappy owners for god knows how many times. it's like bro, i REALLY wanted this house. i really don't care what the other people bidding on the house is talking about, since they were competing with me. I won the house, so the opinion of the dudes who i outbid mean nothing.

wonder how come the same situation isn't playing out with Baker? man these teams should be lining up to get a guy like him, according to very few people around here.

You do realize that only one owner, according to a report and not an actual quote, claimed the offer would have been matched. Even if this "reporter is accurate", that leaves a possible 30 other owners who may be upset. Nobody is trying to argue that there were other teams trying to swing a deal for Watson. That isn't the point. The point is that the NFL has been fighting against these long term guaranteed deals for a very long time. May there have possibly have been one other owner willing to match the offer? Possibly.

You're trying to make a point that some third person rumor is true. Since it backs up the point you're trying to make I understand that. However it doesn't make it a fact.

This FO painted itself into a corner with the Baker contract. I understand why. It's been explained many times. All you have to do is read it. If the Browns were done with Baker no matter what, why have there been zero rumors about the Browns ever trying to trade Baker before they signed watson? Watson and Baker are on two different levels. If you're expecting me to argue that Baker is on the same level as watson, on the field, you're addressing the wrong person.

The Browns saw an opportunity to get a QB who will place them in contention for a SB for years to come. Baker is coming off of a year with a terrible shoulder injury. Even when healthy Baker isn't on the same level as watson. The fact they didn't attempt to trade Baker before signing watson strongly indicates they were willing to roll with Baker if they couldn't find an elite QB.

This is freaking hilarious, promoting one to change his attitude and another to stop his attitude. Funny how what is deemed good for one is considered a liability for another.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/jimmy-garoppolo-needs-ditch-nice-180626057.html

j/c:

This are just my opinions on the Baker saga. Some of these things are factual, though.

--I give absolutely no credence to the claim that teams are trying to stick it to the Haslams as to the reason why Baker hasn't been traded for. That is beyond ridiculous.

--Baker is a "dependent QB." That is, he needs a great OL, a strong running game, a scheme that masks his weaknesses and highlights his strength, play-action passing so he doesn't have to be a pocket passer, running boots, etc. Even w/all that he has shown that he can be decent, but not elite.

--Baker doesn't elevate those around him.

--Baker doesn't overcome a poor play call or a great call by the DC.

--Baker is slow at going through his progressions and his mechanics go to hell when he is pressured early on in games.

--Baker has far too many off target throws as evidenced by his rankings even during his best year.

--Baker is unable to make enough plays when he is behind the chains.

--Baker's 4th quarter QBR and numbers in one score games are at the very bottom of the league.

--Baker does have arm talent.

--Baker is tough.

--Baker can make accurate throws at times.

--Baker is certainly in the top 32 QBs in regards to talent.

--Baker does have some support in the locker room and some guys do like him.

--Baker has alienated some teammates and he hasn't received the support from them the way OBJ when that situation became public.

--Baker--and his fan base--make a ton of excuses for his poor play. Blaming coaches, players, the media, the fans, etc.

--Baker throwing teammates under the bus is extremely off-putting. Blaming the changes in the coaching staff reads like a lack of accountability.

--The constant crap on social media and the Pod Cast help confirm that he is emotionally immature.

Thus, I think the bottom line is that teams would be willing to trade for him if he had some of those concerns regarding his character if he was a really good qb. Hell, teams were willing to overlook the concerns about Watson's character. Teams would want the Aaron Rodgers and all his drama. Teams even will accept Wentz despite him also having the label of a guy who isn't great in the locker room. On the other hand, I think that some teams would be willing to accept what Baker provides on the football field, but the questions about how he interacts w/his teammates, coaches, the organization, the media, etc make them leery of bringing Baker into their locker room. Additionally, I think the almost $19 million fully guaranteed one-year contract is a bit off-putting, but more importantly, his new team would have to work out a long-term contract w/Baker and who the hell knows how that would work out because Baker views himself as a way better QB than the NFL decision makers do.

In my opinion, Baker and his camp would be best served to admit that he has made some mistakes and that he has learned from them. He should address that he loves football and his competitive drive is going to help him in his quest to correct those mistakes and work as hard as humanly possible. He should say he is going to dedicate all of his energy on becoming the very best QB and teammate that he can be. He can add things like he believes in himself and his ability to become one of the best QBs in the league if he wants.

you asked for a source, i gave you the source. if you have a problem with jason lloyd of the athletic as a journalist, take it up with him.

but you still don't get it. it doesn't matter how many owners are upset, because they are only upset that they were outbid and the price tag it took to get Watson.

4 owners said lets trade for him. an addition 2 attempted, but we're denied.

THAT'S A DIVISION AND A HALF WORTH OF OWNERS. so it went from 31 owners to 25. that doesn't include the owners who were interested in trading for watson, but the PRICE TAG was too steep for them to even make the texans an offer, so who knows what that number is... i'm not sure what your issue is with the comment i made. let's not act like within the next year or two, 230 mill will still be at the top. the cap is going up, and it's been trending that way and we all saw it coming. only reason Lamar isn't signed is because he doesn't have an agent, and it is on this really meta level thinking when it comes to his self worth (for another thread). Ravens been trying to resign him. by the way, have you seen what Matt Ryan is making this year? You see Aaron being A-Aron and getting rewarded for it?

we did what we had to do to get our house, just like any one of these owners would've done if the opportunity presented itself. do you normally win a bid and then consider the feelings of other people who tried to outbid you? when you here/read a guy that tried to buy the same piece you bought say,"man it wasn't all that anyway. he overy paid", do you start believing that and second guessing yourself all the time?

or do you not give a crap, because it's worth whatever you were willing to spend? and at the end of the day, they DID try to buy the same piece you did, so it was clearly worth something to someone other than yourself.

i feel like i just stated the complete obvious, but you're trying to make this seem like it's way bigger than what it really is. they're salty, and they'll get over it. the NFL fights against a lot of things, some i agree and disagree with, others i don't care. it is a business, after all. i love the team aspect of sports, but in this specific topic we're talking financials of an employee and the employer. i love it when it employees get that bag. always gonna support that, so if the corporation doesn't like it, then let's see what happens. do they take measures to stop it from happening in the future?

or does the guaranteed pay go up....like it always has. because the cap is gonna increase....like it always has, because the market value goes up, like it always has. you really getting caught up with old rich dudes who are salty they lost a bid or a date.

"man she ain't that cute anyway"

Pit and mac: omg, there's something deeper here!

anyway, Baker painted himself into a corner after such a phenomenal HISTORICAL rookie season. but now we have 4 years worth of tape to see the big picture. Baker's one winning season came when he was not the focal point of the offense, nor had much control of it. he threw the most picks and patted passes in the league since entering, and that was BEFORE the shoulder injury. he isn't accurate, couldn't make it work with a talent like OBJ, and won't keep his trap shut. my comment about Baker wasn't directed at you, but i'm just commenting in general that if Baker was anything close to what some believe he is, somebody would've traded for him already. 18 mill is a bargain for a starting NFL QB in this league *if* he is what some people think.

i tried buying into baker, but he was just too inconsistent. too many times he had a chance to put the team on his back and win us a game, but failed. everything has to be perfect for him to be successful, and with the QB's around the league now? nah, we need THAT guy, and baker ain't it. i really dont care what we do with him at this point, i want to move on from him. we already has brissett to start if watson gets suspended.

but cleary in this specific thread, Baker ain't that dude. no trades before or during the draft. none so far. we don't even know if he's recovered yet. 18 mill guaranteed, can't stop running his mouth. and people at some point must admit that OBJ going to LA mid season and having an immediate impact was a huge indictment against Baker.

he's an average qb recovering from a shoulder injury. there's already plenty of healthy ones in the league.

Ahh, but let a Starter go down on a team that feels they are on track and then watch how fast Baker gets traded for..

Regardless of what some on here say, Baker is a quality QB.. When healthy (which he has been for most of his career) hes been fun to watch. I don't believe all the toxic PR crap that's coming out about him either.

Baker will play in this league again... and he'll win.

That is a month old. At the time when I read that I might have bought it to some degree. I think enough time has passed where that really isn't much of an issue because I think whatever push back there might have been would have played out over draft picks. With the draft over, I don't think it plays, if it ever did.

I don't doubt Baker will play again and be a good enough QB.

As for injury, that could change things. I guess my only concern is are we willing to wait that long? At some point it is a bad look on the Browns FO if we just keep stringing the guy out. To me it is kind of like firing an employee but not allowing the to take another job as long as they are getting some severance pay.

Ethically I don't think that is a good way to do business even if legally it is allowed..

I thought Baker was the one who asked that he and the Browns part ways. Maybe he should have kept his mouth shut?

4 wins no losses against Burrows
Put up a 48 spot against Pittsburgh
Yout right he is a liability.

When was that, in relation to the guaranteed $230 million for DW? Before that happened? Or after?

Don't waste your time man, there is an agenda behind many of the comments you read here.

j/c:

Take a look at my sig. That's Baker Mayfield talking about Duke Johnson who wanted to be traded after the Browns drafted Chubb.

Baker also had this to say about Hue after the latter was fired and joined the Bengals:



Dude, you degrade a man for taking a job AFTER he was fired? Really? Now, you are the victim? What a hypocrite.

And until he stops making excuses for what transpired, he is going to continue to be regarded w/a lot of trepidation by NFL players, coaches, and front offices. His fan club can deny that all they want and attack others who are pointing out the reality of the situation, but that won't change a damn thing until Baker decides to grow up and stop blaming others for his woes.

I think he was, at least verbally. I do think the team was ready to move on. As has been mentioned he lost the locker room, or at least a big part, and yes, he should have kept his mouth shut.

None the less, I worry about the optics. I am not sticking up for the guy so much as I worry about what the team does in this situation. At this point I don't care about what Baker says or does, but I do worry about what the team does.

I get the team wanting to protect their interests and may not want baker playing for the Steelers as an example, but if we are moving one, we shouldn't be all that concerned with where he plays.

I don't think they are worried about where he plays. I think they simply want to recoup something roughly approximating what they see as his value. Unfortunately, it seems the most value they are going to get for him may come in the form of a compensatory pick unless some team needs an injury replacement. Until we had Watson, his best value was as our QB. If you don't have a legitimate QB in the NFL, your team is pretty screwed. There didn't appear to be a safe bet in the draft. Watson appeared to be a long shot, until he wasn't. Watson might not be available this season.

Baker keeps complaining about being lied to. He wasn't. They did what they told him they were going to do. They're always looking to make the team better.

The "they set me up to fail narrative" also seems a bit ludicrous. He wanted to play. They invested in a great OL, running backs room, high priced FA TE, drafted a Mackey award winning TE and also had a young, athletic former first round TE, and he had two highly paid WRs (one of which he ran off.) Injuries happened, that's the business.

When the going gets tough, Baker finds somebody else to blame. He did it at Texas Tech, and now he's doing it here. The whole chip on his shoulder thing is becoming (has been?) more of a negative than a positive. That seems to tend to happen with externally motivated people.

I feel Baker's best approach is to do what the team preaches and put in the work. Control what he can control. Look good on the field, and someone will give him a chance. The Browns paying him to play somewhere else while getting nothing in return doesn't make much sense, especially when Watson's availability is still up in the air.

Suck it up, and be a pro. You're being paid millions to play a game. Appreciate what you've got, and make the best of it.

peen, that's fair and I understand where you are coming from. I just see it more like Bull does. Teams upgrading players and parting ways w/players is nothing new. Almost all guys move on and keep their feelings inside. Baker hasn't been able to do that and it is my belief that he is hurting himself more than the Browns by doing so. But again, it's cool that we disagree because seeing different opinions is a good thing.

I agree we want to get something. It doesn't look like that will happen. Maybe the best compensation we can get is to wait it out, let the contract expire and get a comp pick, Some think it could be a 3rd rounder. That sounds great but I worry about the dynamic that would create inside the club house.

I am not sure the team can simply lock him out and tell him to not show up and he has to show up unless he wants to void the contract. Even if we can ask him to not show up, paying him will still cost us a roster spot.

I guess it boils down to having limited choices and all of them are bad.

To add one last thought, maybe we need to give Baker and his agent permission to talk to other teams to seek a trade deal. I don't know if the Browns have given that permission or not. I haven't seen that we have.

peen, this is an honest question. Do you know if the Texans allowed Watson in the facilities last year or did they ask him to stay away?

I don't know. I think the team suspended him, didn't they? If so, I don't think he was around.