If anyone is interested, I posted Baker's Expected Completion percentage for the 2020 season [his really good year] along w/his time to throw and compared them to Watson's numbers in that same year. You can find that information in The Bake Show thread along w/the link to Advanced Passing Stats.
with juice officially not coming back, looks like DPJ, Bell, and Schwartz are gonna be in a very heated competition for snaps.
“To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
with juice officially not coming back, looks like DPJ, Bell, and Schwartz are gonna be in a very heated competition for snaps.
I usually get a little excited about a young guy. He doesn't have the draft pedigree, but I think Isaiah Weston could make some waves. I think he could end up better than any of the 3 you mention. Of course opportunity will be the key. That and he has to show up, but I think he is a sleeper.
The other guy isn't a sleeper, but a guy I think most sleep on. That's Harrison Bryant. I think the team kind of forgot about the guy. We all talk about Njoku, but we have been talking about him for four years now. Maybe this will finally be the year. Just like last year and the year before were going to be the year. Maybe there is no year?
I think Bryant will become one of the better TE's in the league. Just toss him the ball and watch it happen.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
The injury to Baker had him throwing all arm which effected his accuracy on all counts especially the long ball.
It's amazing how some people forget that he had injuries to both legs and a torn up left shoulder by year's end.
People (rightly) excuse Jarvis's lack of production, due to his injury ..... but seem to forget that Baker was also injured.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
The injury to Baker had him throwing all arm which effected his accuracy on all counts especially the long ball.
Just so you guys know.........there is a post I made on the The Bake Show thread that I made about Baker's Expected Completion Percentage during his "great" year and the amount of time he was provided that might help clear up any misconception that folks have. There is a link provided and one can see the truth for oneself in one is interested in the truth.
Baker's overall accuracy is below average and has been. He also has held the ball longer than others. These are facts and not opinions. But, as w/any alternative universe, if some folks repeat the same lies time and time again, the reality of the truth is overcome by the reality of perception.
One more time............>Y'all wanna let it go........I will let it go. But please stop rewriting what actually occurred.
It seems you are arguing that stats prove that Baker's injury didn't affect him much?
Meanwhile there are a bunch of fans who watched the games who feel otherwise.
Your opinion on stats has you claiming that to have a different view means we are rewriting history? I don't see that at all. I mean I don't agree with you at all that the injury didn't affect Baker much - I think it affected his confidence, I think there were games when he was scared of getting hit and panicked because of the injury, I think the harness affected his ability to throw the ball and I know that the pain and ability to throw the ball was impacted by the injuries. I'm pretty sure I have read articles and listened to ex-QB's from the NFL that talked about how hard it was to throw the ball with the injury he had. So we disagree which is fine.
There isn't a "let it go" because this isn't a provable discussion or topic. Baker was something like 64% his rookie year - 59% with Freddie as HC - virtually 63% in 2021 when he readjusted his mechanics .... and then in 2022 pre-injury he had one game at 75% and in the next game he got hurt while throwing at a 90% completion rate. He had a couple ok games the rest of the season but nearly everyone thought he looked like crap and not the same guy that finished the last games of 2020. We won 8 games mostly in spite of Baker. I guess like I've said before, folks can judge Baker at his best or Worst or somewhere in between - Clearly your opinion is that Baker is the QB we saw in 2022 and the harness, torn shoulder, broken humerus and leg injuries didn't make (that much) of a difference. But let's be clear people disagreeing with you isn't rewriting history. That would be when - for example - a player engineers his departure from the team having never wanted to be on the team (provable by reports and news stories covering his entire time with the team, each offseason and during games when he told other teams to come get him and even went so far as to tell another player not to sign with the Browns) and then inventing a narrative that said player left because of Baker etc.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Just to add a little color to mgh888's post, I keep reading post after post about how Landry was affected last season by injury and how playing with extreme pain lowered his production on the field yet with Mayfield - pain, injury, or limitations had absolutely no bearing on his performance. Even with the obvious reduction in the quality of his play, the chosen one, Head Coach Stefanski, paraded the ineffective QB out there week after week with no accountability for his actions at all. BTY Dog, those are facts that can't be refuted either.
Look, the Browns decided to upgrade the position and Watson is now the QB of the Cleveland Browns. Holding Watson to the level of upgrade should be the norm and no matter the situation, AFC Championship or Super Bowl should be the minimum expected level of performance - after all, the acquisition of Watson is touted as being a top 5 QB and Mayfield and only Mayfield has been holding the team back from achieving its goal.
It'll be easier watching games this year because everything is fixed now and the cancer that has held this team back has been unceremoniously removed. "GO BROWNS"
Thank you for that post. You nailed it. Landry gets excused cause he was injured. Baker doesn't get that privilege.
But, yes, now DW is here, and he is a magical qb. he will carry the team on his shoulders (if he plays this year) and anything short of an AFC championship game will fall at his feet, and his alone.
Those that hated on Baker, and blamed Baker for last year? Hey, you got your wish. he won't be here, and your saviour will be here - maybe - and I expect win after win after win, with NO excuses.
Ahhhhhh, I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning. Or not.
Both Jarvis and Baker were affected by injury. Both have been moved on from.
Jarvis didn't touch the ball every play, and his injury didn't have the same impact on every other offensive player as Baker's. Baker's issues were easy to see as the broadcast cameras followed him and/or his throws every play. They followed his excruciating holding the ball as he struggled to process play after play after play.
When Jarvis's injuries were at their worst, he wasn't playing. He came off the field and let healthy players take his snaps.
You mess with the "Bull," you get the horns. Fiercely Independent.
It seems you are arguing that stats prove that Baker's injury didn't affect him much?
Meanwhile there are a bunch of fans who watched the games who feel otherwise.
Your opinion on stats has you claiming that to have a different view means we are rewriting history? I don't see that at all. I mean I don't agree with you at all that the injury didn't affect Baker much - I think it affected his confidence, I think there were games when he was scared of getting hit and panicked because of the injury, I think the harness affected his ability to throw the ball and I know that the pain and ability to throw the ball was impacted by the injuries. I'm pretty sure I have read articles and listened to ex-QB's from the NFL that talked about how hard it was to throw the ball with the injury he had. So we disagree which is fine.
There isn't a "let it go" because this isn't a provable discussion or topic. Baker was something like 64% his rookie year - 59% with Freddie as HC - virtually 63% in 2021 when he readjusted his mechanics .... and then in 2022 pre-injury he had one game at 75% and in the next game he got hurt while throwing at a 90% completion rate. He had a couple ok games the rest of the season but nearly everyone thought he looked like crap and not the same guy that finished the last games of 2020. We won 8 games mostly in spite of Baker. I guess like I've said before, folks can judge Baker at his best or Worst or somewhere in between - Clearly your opinion is that Baker is the QB we saw in 2022 and the harness, torn shoulder, broken humerus and leg injuries didn't make (that much) of a difference. But let's be clear people disagreeing with you isn't rewriting history. That would be when - for example - a player engineers his departure from the team having never wanted to be on the team (provable by reports and news stories covering his entire time with the team, each offseason and during games when he told other teams to come get him and even went so far as to tell another player not to sign with the Browns) and then inventing a narrative that said player left because of Baker etc.
If Baker was panicky in the pocket , afraid to get hit and his confidence was Eroding then why did he insist on being the starting QB? Your only hurting the team when those elements come into play full force If Baker would have sat out took a path to get healthy, he might still be The starter of the Browns today
if some folks repeat the same lies time and time again, the reality of the truth is overcome by the reality of perception.
And hear is how you piss some posters off and it starts somewhere and just accelerates to posters getting banned. You just called me a "LIAR" yes you have proven the "TRUTH" and I'm the liar about his accuracy.
Go take a look at our vaunted WR staff's higlight reel. What you will see is the perfect "BALL PLACEMENT" over and over again where a pass completed in stride. Proof you have that he holds the ball too long and that is because early on in his career he would scramble around and make something happen out of nothing. Then we heard about how SKI was going to "CHANGE" Baker and make him more efficient and create a QB in his own image...how did that work out.
Again here is a fact...20 TDs and -0- INTs as a rookie in the red zone. How does that happen to a QB who is inaccurate. Baker was trying to do everthing that we asked him to do. We abandoned the process of building an offense around the players strengths.
You could have made your point without insulting me by calling me a LIAR...it sort of makes you a down right HYPOCRITE doesn't it. Liar! see that is how it happens and Vers you are always the BULLY another lie btw where you set yourself as the champion of the victims... you crossed the line you just couldn't post civil - I blame myself for actually believing you could change. Still same old lying Vers,.,.howss them apples!
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
If Baker was panicky in the pocket , afraid to get hit and his confidence was Eroding then why did he insist on being the starting QB? Your only hurting the team when those elements come into play full force If Baker would have sat out took a path to get healthy, he might still be The starter of the Browns today
Baker didn't insist on being the starter - Baker insisted he was healthy enough to play. Stefanski insisted each week - despite what we all saw and the bad play by Baker and with the NFL's most expensive backup (i think) on the bench - that Baker was the starting QB.
I and many others called for him to sit during the season to get healthy and I agree with you - he might still be the starter today if he had. We'll never know.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
It seems you are arguing that stats prove that Baker's injury didn't affect him much?
Meanwhile there are a bunch of fans who watched the games who feel otherwise.
No, that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that Baker's accuracy has been vastly overrated since he came into the league. There are actual advanced stats that prove my assertion. It's not a memory. It's not what I think. It's not what I want to get others to see. There is factual evidence that proves my claim.
I do think Baker's injury affected him, just not to the extent that he--and his fans--say it did. I have made multiple posts about how I noticed Baker had to use more torque w/his lower body on some throws last year. I have no proof of that, but I know QB mechanics and it is an observation I made. However, Baker's poor mechanics have been an issue for a long time. His short stature has caused him issues when he makes throws from the pocket. His mechanics go to complete hell when he is pressured early on in games and his footwork is totally out of whack. That's been the case for years. The injury affected Baker, but not to the extreme that many of you claim it did.
Now, I have a question for you. If Baker's injury was the reason for his poor performance last year and his supporting cast was as bad as some claim it to be and his coach had such a terrible scheme, why haven't NFL talent evaluators picked-up on those things and traded for him? The amount of denial on this board is ludicrous.
Thank you for that post. You nailed it. Landry gets excused cause he was injured. Baker doesn't get that privilege.
But, yes, now DW is here, and he is a magical qb. he will carry the team on his shoulders (if he plays this year) and anything short of an AFC championship game will fall at his feet, and his alone.
Those that hated on Baker, and blamed Baker for last year? Hey, you got your wish. he won't be here, and your saviour will be here - maybe - and I expect win after win after win, with NO excuses.
At least you are admitting that you are going in w/a biased attitude and are looking to criticize Watson. That's admirable.
No tab, I was not calling "you" a liar. I used the word "folks," and not tab. I actually think that you believe that Baker is really accurate because we have all seen him make incredibly accurate throws in the past. Hell, he made accurate throws last year. I also think you were not aware of the stats that I posted about his off-target throws even in his best year. There are other people on this board that are aware of those stats and continue to ignore them.
Baker has never been super accurate. His best year in the NFL was under 64% - that's middle of the pack I think. But he seemed to be developing and improving, especially in 2021. He might not have ben (and will never be) elite as far as accuracy goes, but we saw in the post raised from the end of last year, there was a lot of positives.
And whose to say he wasn't "getting it" finally? In the first 2 games of the season - Baker threw for 80% in the games vs KC and HOU. The remainder of the season he threw for 57.7%. And that doesn't even tell the whole story - how many catches were bad throws? A lot. We can disagree - that's fine. But the numbers are real. The feedback from others with that injury was real. Commentary from pro QBs was real.
The supporting cast was injured. And I forget the stats but our Best WR was graded something like 67th in the NFL? So it's a legitimate observation.... I am certain Baker's bad play hurt the WR's, but Landry was way below his usual self virtually all season, Schwartz was flat bad, DPJ regressed and was not good enough to be leaned on as a #1 (and hurt himself). Hooper was below average. Njoku flashed but wasn't always consistent. RB's were hurt. . . . all those things are accurate observations - they are not excuses for Baker playing badly.
Stefanski has a good scheme. We saw that in 2020. We saw flashes of it in 2021. If there is 1 poster that is over critical of KS it doesn't mean that is the norm - but while KS has a good scheme and at times it looks brilliant, it also doesn't mean he is beyond criticism for in game calls and management. We went for it a TON on 4th down and our results were abysmal. If advanced stats tell you to go for it on 4th down in a certain situation but your team constantly fails to convert - re-evaluate and change the tipping point when going for it makes sense. . . when you are running the ball at over 8 yards per attempt - make sure you RUN more than you PASS ... that didn't happen. On MNF - Peyton, Eli and another NFL QB all said Stefanski wasn't calling plays to help Baker be successful. Are they all Baker Lovers? Do they have an agenda?
Stefanski did exceptionally well in a Covid impacted off-season and season in 2020. His preparation, detail, embracing of all things modern/digital probably helped him gain a significant edge over many other teams. Plus in stadiums, lack of noise and crowds may have been a positive. 2021 that advantage disappeared, we had an injured QB playing badly and we had injuries to nearly every position group on the offense. We still managed to nearly squeak into the play-offs - kudos to Stefanski. Better QB play we would have made it - Blame Baker, blame bad luck/injury sure. But we lost games where we ran the ball over 8 yards a clip but threw the ball more than we passed or where it was nearly 50-50 (Green Bay game)... We left the best pass rusher 1 on 1 with a 3rd string RT on MULTIPLE plays in a game ... and in one game we were running the ball great and needed a score on the final drive and threw the ball 3 times to end the game with a pick. So absolutely KS also shares some culpability - all the more so knowing the QB was playing badly all year. . . . Again - none of that excuses Baker's bad play. It doesn't change the fact with better play we make the playoffs .... but all is factual and relevant to a discussion about what and why we didn't make it to the playoffs.
Baker's gone. Watson is here. Watson - based on the last time he was starting in the NFL - is an elite, top 5 or better QB. It should only be good.
Last edited by mgh888; 05/16/2209:31 AM.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
That is a very fair post. I am not one to use completion percentage as a gauge for one's accuracy because a guy who throws a ton of passes behind the LOS is bound to have a higher completion percentage than a guy who slings it downfield, so I won't get on Baker about that. I like to use Advanced Passing stats to help gauge things. The Expected Completion Percentage [some call it On-target or even off-target throws] is what should be looked at. Also, time to throw has to factor in that.
I don't know if Watson is top 5. He might be. I think he is in the top 7. I think some are saying that I only blame Baker for our troubles last year. That would be ignorant and I'm far from ignorant. There were a multitude of issues that led to our demise. I just felt that Baker was not good enough to win us a championship and I felt that way even after 2020 and that is why I told Diam in a phone call that he should not be surprised if this was Baker's last year. And I said that BEFORE the season.
In 2020 we had the 21st ranked defense and a QB coming onto a new system he had never played in. Yet we won 11 games and made the playoffs. Yeah, that Baker guy must have sucked. As Diam would say, stats are for.... well you know the rest. They can be manipulated to claim whatever message someone is trying to send depending on the stats they show and which stats they don't.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Class?? Is that a joke. I speak the truth. Sorry it makes you uncomfortable to be called out for sacrificing sexual exploitation victims at the altar of pro football worship.
Careful Vers, this pup has teeth. LMAO, good for you Baker Dawg. Stand your ground like it's Florida up in here and you will get by just fine. Take no crap, take no prisoners, but do try to get along.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Careful Vers, this pup has teeth. LMAO, good for you Baker Dawg. Stand your ground like it's Florida up in here and you will get by just fine. Take no crap, take no prisoners, but do try to get along.
Vers is the reason I don’t post here much. If you disagree with with him your an idiot. And then he will pm you talking trash and stuff no one would say to another in person, keyboard warrior. Sucks too cause every once in a while I agree with him on his take Basically the first 6 years before he joined were good years. Posts stayed on topic. No little man syndrome when disagreed with. Post stayed on topic. Wouldn’t worry about a pm from him. Post stayed on topic. Every other post wasn’t him after he just posted a rebuttal to his rebuttal. Post stayed on topic. I guess I’m just the guy still talking about the good ol days when I could read a thread about the thread topic, without reading his nonsense over and over again almost 50,000 times. Sucks cause I agree with vers vs baker dawgs opinion on this. But like ones political views can’t be changed with facts. My opinion of vers will never change on his personality, even if he is right. Go Browns
Hey man, post all you want. If he bothers you that much just block him. And if he can still PM you, don't read them. And that grey flag by the post number is for reporting violations of the boards rules. All that said, nobody should feel they have to quit posting over another poster. I'm sorry went through that.
Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
Vers is the reason I don’t post here much. If you disagree with with him your an idiot. And then he will pm you talking trash and stuff no one would say to another in person, keyboard warrior. Sucks too cause every once in a while I agree with him on his take Basically the first 6 years before he joined were good years. Posts stayed on topic. No little man syndrome when disagreed with. Post stayed on topic. Wouldn’t worry about a pm from him. Post stayed on topic. Every other post wasn’t him after he just posted a rebuttal to his rebuttal. Post stayed on topic. I guess I’m just the guy still talking about the good ol days when I could read a thread about the thread topic, without reading his nonsense over and over again almost 50,000 times. Sucks cause I agree with vers vs baker dawgs opinion on this. But like ones political views can’t be changed with facts. My opinion of vers will never change on his personality, even if he is right. Go Browns
A couple of things. Baker addressed me on this thread. Not the other way around. Secondly, I don't recall ever PMing you. In fact, I just went back 4 and half years checking my PMs and not one was to you. I don't wish to bug you and I will agree to never make another post to you or even about you. How about you do the same and we can both move on?
Anyway, back to how the offense might look w/Watson at QB, here is a video on the subject. It starts w/some comments from Marcus Spears and then Quincy Carrier responds to those comments.
"Potential" in the NFL is a scary word. All teams use it. The media beats it to death.
I got lost in the word last year. I was like Odell is going be healthy. Baker is coming off of his best performance. We won a playoff game on the road against the Steelers. We added all these defensive pieces. We have to be better than we were. We might actually go the the SB.
Hell I may have a stroke.
Once again we face that dirty word. We have a good roster. I don't think it is final. We are going to add players still.
We know who Cooper is. We have a good idea about DPJ. We don't know how much or if at all Schwartz improves. Bell is a rookie but we can see what kind of receiver he is.
The rest of the offensive team we know. DW if he plays a full season. We know who he is.
If Schwartz were to become a true receiving threat. Or, Bell has a great rookie year. If both contribute in a positive way. We will score a lot of points.
The offense could be the best in football.
Think about it. All the top teams in the AFC have the same type "if" potential. Bills, KC, Denver, Ravens, Bengals, Raiders, Chargers, Titans, Colts.
None can out potential the Browns. That is a true statement.
However, potential is not a sure thing. We have learned that first hand.
But it is damn exciting to be in the conversation.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
![[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]](https://i.ibb.co/fkjZc8B/Bull-Dawg-Sig-smaller.jpg)
![[Linked Image from c.tenor.com]](https://c.tenor.com/Sq7rY9NKKd4AAAAC/oscars-standing-ovation.gif)
