The last two years what we have called the Stefanski offense is about to change.

After Baker's injury the offense changed. KS tried to adapt to Baker's injury. The roll outs to the left off play action ended. You can not throw that pass in a brace.

Watson and Cooper will change the offensive concepts. Hooper being removed and Watson as qb will change the way Njoku will be used.

The final receiving room is still to be determined. Jarvis may return. We might sign Will Fuller. The draft will be more of guys we will develop.

The OL is set. The backfield: Watson, Chubb, Hunt, D'ernest, Cooper, (veteran guy), DPJ, Schwartz, Bradley, Grant, rookie. TE Njoku, Bryant.

IMO we will not be using much two TE sets. We will see more 11 personnel.

The playbook will open up more. We will still be a running team but Watson can play from the pocket. Third and ten will no longer be death.

Defenses will have to play us way different. Watson can kill you with his legs.

As the season moves along KS will see how defenses will adjust to the new look Browns. Old Browns game plans will have to be revamped.

We will learn a lot about KS and AVP.

Bone - man I hope so. But I am certainly not sure.

But in Minnesota didn't Stefanski have better weapons than the Browns have had - and didn't they get completely under utilized? Isn't this one of the foundation blocks of Steve's narrative about Stefanski and Diggs and elite WR's choosing to come to the Browns if Stefanski is running the offense?

My gut says that Stefanski won't get the most out of a top 5 QB if that is indeed what Watson is - I'll hold judgement till I see him play for half a season - my gut says you don't need an elite QB to play Stefanski's offense and I doubt there will be that much of a change. I hope I am wrong.

The thing is, no matter how "good"/run heavy an offense is, there are going to be times that elite QB play comes in handy.

Look at the Ravens when they were rolling. That offense was eating teams up on the ground. There still came a point when Lamar missing throws bit them.

I think our success on third and fourth downs should improve because of the Watson scramble/create when things breakdown factor. Cutting down on 3 and outs would be great.

From my perspective Stefanski’s play calling is our weak link. Whatever the statistics says the end result isn’t good enough. On top of that is his handling of Baker. To throw a injured QB under the bus against the Steelers is unforgivable. I would say deliberately evil, that’s not a good sign for a someone trying to become a elite HC.

I think in another year or two and our GM will search for alternatives. (“Every position will be upgraded if possible” or whatever he just said about our QB position…)

Ski has not so far showed that he’s a natural born winner and I don’t see the potential either.

Better QB always elevates a team. And by every statistical measure Watson is a significant upgrade. (Again, I'll wait for the proof in a Browns jersey watching on Sunday)

The issue is whether we maximize the return from or even need a top 5 QB in this offense. At the cost of $46M per year and three 1st round picks - a merely "Good" QB and keeping those assets might easily be a surer path to sustained success. I don't know... But it's a consideration.... Allegedly Stefanski had 3 receivers open on more plays than any other team. A stat used to crucify Baker and his harness play last year... if true, do we need a top 5 QB to hit one of the 3 receivers? Or just a much better QB than Baker was in 2021?

It's going to be an interesting ride finding out how and what KS does. Watson, Amari, Chubb/Hunt and the OL we in theory have ... should be no reason not to score a lot.

I disagree.

IMO Stefanski is a bright young head coach.

His role wilth the Vikings is in the past. He was not the head coach there.

He is smart enough to know what all coaches are taught. Use your players.

Baker and Watson are way different. The offense with the personnel changes made will be different.

Stefanski is a pragmatist. As coaches gain experience; the good ones change and adapt.

"Natural born winner." You can not label a head coach after two years.

His first year he won a playoff game with not a great team. He was also "voted" head coach of the year.
Last year his hands were tied to a broken quarterback. Covid was no easy task to manipulate for the last years as well.

So I don't agree with your assessment.

Stefanski in Minnesota was a different place and time.

Nothing stays the same. We can not say what real power Stefanski had with the Vikings. He was not the head coach.

No matter who you are when you do something over again; you get better at it. You can master a skill as you work it more.

We have to keep in mind we all change as we gain experience.

IMO the combination of Berry and Stefanski will be a wiining combination.

Berry has shown with Depo how you can manage cap space. He didn't cut Keenum. He traded him. A 7th rounder could get us a kicker.

The Watson deal was a steal. We didn't lose additional players. That is important. We have the talent to win now.

When the draft is over and the roster close to set. The Browns and Bills will have the best rosters in football.

This whole notion about Stefanski, his offense, play caller, etc. is IMO an oversimplification.

First play calling is over estimated. I have heard about play calling for fifty years. Everyone thinks they know what play to call. Just like baseball fans think they know what pitch to call. BS. Bruce Arians was damn near thown out the door by fans when he was the Browns OC.

If fans had a shread of the information at hand compared to a NFL playcaller. What you would see is "delay of game."

I don’t say you’re wrong but how do we know he’s “bright” and “smart enough”. Any evidence?
You say he’s a pragmatist and the good one change and adapt. What’s correlation between that statement and Stefanski? Something special you have seen?

Won a play off game with not a great team? I’m sorry because I read on multiple places the opposite that our team was full of talent that season.
You said “his hands were tied to a broke QB”. Ok so that mean you accept that Baker wasn’t 100% fully healthy. Good to know because if I listen t Quincy and Shannon Sharpe there is no excuses if you’re on the field but hey why hold Stefanski accountable when Baker didn’t have that luxury.
Regarding Covid all teams dealed with that, not only the Browns.

Coach of the year means nothing if you don’t win anything. Maybe the NFL wanted the Browns to have something to celebrate, just saying…

Whatever we bring up the result don’t have feelings or is biased. So going by the result the team stagnate between 2020 and 2021 with Ski in charge. Fact. Not to mention how he handled OBJ and Baker.

"Coach of the year means nothing if you don’t win anything. Maybe the NFL wanted the Browns to have something to celebrate, just saying…"

This statement is absurd. He coached a team to the playoffs with no offseason, many players missing in multiple games, and had his team so prepared, that they won with him not even on the sidelines. Last season he struggled, but the season before he was fantastic.

Sorry but I think that’s not true. If you’re labeled fantastic you probably win the SB, not just one play off game. Just saying.

And btw the team that won the SB also started their season with similar preparations as the Browns.

So 11-5 with a healthy Baker doesn't sound like a winner to you? Or are you trying to say almost playing .500 with a QB that has a torn labrum in his shoulder makes you think he's a loser?

One thing we will find out for sure though. If analytics actually play a part in things, the statistics of the players on the field make a difference in your approach to the offense. If you have WR's with better catch rates and a QB with a higher completion percentage, that dictates you will throw the ball more.

But what it doesn't and won't dictate is that you abandon your run game when you have one of the best RB tandems in the league and a highly ranked OL to block for them.

Evidence of bright and smart. He was hired. Do the math of how many jobs in the NFL there are. There are 32 NFL teams.
On average maybe six head coach jobs a year open. Think about that level of competition to become a head coach in the NFL.

I don't know what you think of Berry or Haslam. Around the league Berry is considered by the people who cover the NFL a very good GM.
He did become the youngest GM (and Black). You don't get to be that without the resume and references to do so.
They hired Stefanski.

Outside of tenured head coaches who have held jobs in the NFL for any length of time quantifying smart or bright enough is to a degree subjective.
Objectively, most of those who cover the NFL describe him that way.

The 2020 Browns team was not that good. They beat a weak Steeler team that was out of gas. Nobody picked the Browns to beat the Chiefs. It was amazing that they kept it close. Mahomes was injured. KC was the better team. Do a honest comparison. KC is 50-13 with Mahomes. Please.

How many first time head coaches were faced with Covid their first two years?

Baker was medically cleared to play. He wanted to play. Keenum versus an injured Baker. Neither one was an answer.

"Coach of the year means nothing if you don’t win anything. Maybe the NFL wanted the Browns to have something to celebrate, just saying…"

Just saying what?

The National Football League Coach of the Year Award is presented annually by various news and sports organizations to the National Football League (NFL) head coach who has done the most outstanding job of working with the talent he has at his disposal.

The 2021 season. If you really believe injuries (which are random) have no bearing on a season? Check and see what happens to teams who lose their starting quarterback and other key starters.

OBJ and Baker. Let's begin when it began. Both players were brought in by the previous GM.
Look at the injury history of OBJ. It did not change when he came to Cleveland. He missed lots of games.

Track OBJ's career and how he left the Giants. So however you wish to believe the OBJ/father video came to being? Do you believe that was KS fault?
It was Berry's call to rid the team of OBJ.
Stefanski does not play on the field. Who was open and not thrown to? If a play is called and the play is there to be made. And the result is an incompletion is the head coach at fault?

Does Stefanski have authority over who is on the roster?

If the Baker OBJ chemistry never developed. It has to do with the players involved.

Watson played from the shotgun (...option/rpo/naked [Hunt]; with vertical speed [Fuller?]/crossing [Hopkins = Cooper] route concepts in Houston) ... so something will need to give in terms of their/our offensive philosophy ... if we plan on playing to [our] players strengths.

You are right.

Watson is not scheme dependent. Baker's roll outs were put in to give him vision clarity.

In addition Baker can throw well on the run so it was effective until his shoulder injury.

Watson can work from any formation. He is capable in the pocket to find the open guy. He is mobile enough to create from broken plays.

What some were calling the "Stefanski offense" was actually created for Baker.

Watson will allow the offense to be more multiple.

one thing i would like to know is whether or not stefanski took the audible away from Baker. did he? and if he did, will Watson have the ability to audible out of plays?

I can not say for sure.

What I would say was Baker had options off pre-snap reads.

I heard him kill at the line. My guess was: "if you see this - go to this."

Baker knew when he saw press man and single coverage. Off man can be mixed with zones but not always.

Again there are indicators where the safety's are lined up as well.

Could Baker go from run to pass? I don't know.

Watson initially will probably work off scripted plays. The first series probably not.

Once KS feels like Watson knows the offense. And, KS sees in practice the chemistry with receivers.

Then over time yes Watson will IMO have more freedom.

This is the beginning of a long term relationship. I believe KS believes in his players. He knows from practices how players play.

An example is a player like JOK. It did not take long for the coaches to learn what this guy is about. He is one guy who will grow into a captain position.

It becomes about trust. Once a coach sees how players respond to situations the more he will give them the lead.

I'm guessing that Watson will need the same support since he is 1" taller than baker?

The stefasnki offense was created in Minnesota and he brought most of that over to CLE.
https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/brown...iciaries-on-offense-with-kevin-stefanski

While new Cleveland Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski wasn't willing to go into much detail on what he will do offensively, he did say the scheme he ran as an offensive coordinator this past season with the Minnesota Vikings would be a starting point. Beyond that, he wants to be multiple and aggressive. Based on what Stefanski did this past year with the Vikings, there are a number of players that stand to benefit

What that means for Mayfield is utilizing a substantial amount of playaction, where he's already experienced significant success, but more movement before the throw. Fakes off of stretches, bootlegs and naked rollouts. Not only does it change the amount of field Mayfield has to work, but it changes the angles defenses have to deal with, which makes the offense less predictable and more difficult to defend.


https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/sp...ld-be-a-great-fit-for-stefanskis-offense

IMO what KS did or did not do with the Viking is no longer relevant.

He will use some of the concepts in particular the zone blocking scheme.

Our OL and the run game will probably not change much if at all.

The pass game will change.

However, until more time passes and we begin to see practices and finally games.

It is to early to determine much.

That was one of my biggest questions last year.

The FO KNOWS what they had with BM, he got mad because they went after better QB AFTER they told him. OBJ hasn't said anything nice about Baker, somehow he was pretty good with Rams. JMHO, the FO wasn't happy with BM NOT talking to press after his crap game in Detroit....about as adult as his video running for cops when drunk. I'm glad he's history, he had ONE good season and he doesn't see the field as top QBs do.....football wise, Watson is HUGE update. And, millionaires are always hunted by women....especially single ones....Go Browns!!!

My recollection is that criticisms of KS's playcalling always existed in the background, but really took off when his roster was SEVERLY limited by injuries. Starting 4th and 5th tackles, QB limited, WRs in and out of the lineup, etc.

Long story short, I wanted to give Baker another healthy year to make a decision on what he is (obviously can't do that anymore), but I'd be a hypocrite if I didn't give KS the same benefit of the doubt. There are arguments that can be made that his playcalling was NOT issue #1 last year (open receiver metric, overall pass rush win rate despite injuries, ypc, etc).

i think the biggest criticism i had with KS was the rhythm of the play calling. i still believe he didn't give the QB nor the RB/O line a consistent chance to get into the rhythm of the game.

how many times did we see chubb/hunt/D'Ernest get a 4-5-6 yard gain back to back, only for KS to call 3-4 passing plays straight? i remember times where our rushing attack would get a 1st down back to back, only for KS to call 3 straight passing plays, and now we're punting.

don't get me started on the 4th down atrocities. i dont have a problem going for it on 4th down, but once we failed to convert, take the points, and then maybe go for another 4th down later on. he rarely did that.

another was the lack of emphasis on TE chips. too many times our RT was left on an island. and Njoku specifically has gotten Kizer and Baker completely destroyed due to not even chip blocking a guy before running a route.

Watson has better touch on the ball, so that alone should lower (not eliminate) the drops, and he's more accurate. however, Watson does like to hold the ball too long because of his athleticism, so Stefanski gotta drill into him to get the ball out faster. Watson isn't afraid of the check down pass, so that should also help with efficiency. if we're gonna keep running 3 TE sets (who's the 3rd? someone in the draft?) then i need more creative formations from KS.

another thing a lot of us brought up last season was the fact that we would be a run heavy team, but KS would call passing plays that didn't extend down the field. you can't be run heavy AND throw it short. and i dont think we currently have the WRs to rely on YAC, especially if we get will fuller. i really hope we can bring back landry, because talk about a security blanket for Watson.

and for the love of god, stop baby sitting nick chubb. i'm tired of seeing him on the sidelines, especially when we need him on the field at crucial junctures.

A little more that same article:

Watson told Stefanski he wanted to be coached hard, that he’ll never get offended by coaching. He asked Stefanski if he saw anything Watson could work on, and Stefanski rattled off a list of a few items, including doing a better job of carrying out his fakes. Watson laughed and said Stefanski sounded like Watson’s 10th-grade coach, who always got on him for that kind of thing.

One would hope with a torn labrum both Baker and Stefanski had enough common sense to agree on that.

One of my criticisms.. how many times in the last couple years did players really have breakout games? Cubb had a few games in the last couple years with a lot of yards but it was because he broke long runs, not because they fed him the ball more when it was working.... Same with receivers, we have had very few 100+ yard games by receivers in the last 2 years, their targets and catches stay fairly constant...

We never seem to feed the hot hand and just go with it until they stop it. There have been times where Hunt seemed to be feeling it more than Chubb, if that's the case, let Hunt go with it... but one of them is obviously feeling it more but the sheet says it's the other ones turn, so make the change... I don't understand it.

You would think. I don't have a per game play by play, but I remember watching stretches of games wondering why Baker never did. I also remember plenty of times he checked out of a play and the results were not good... couldn't really speak to whether that was Baker not "seeing the defense" or us being so terribly predictable.

I think one could say that about almost any situation. Often times running plays will only go for one or two yards. When a QB passes the ball long the percentage of completions goes down by a large margin. I think in both of those cases you could describe that as "not good". But yet they are still plays used in the NFL on a regular basis. I can't think of any plays ran in the NFL where often times the results are "not good".


Or it could be none of the above. I too considered and spoke about how many open WR's we had after Baker's injury. It was my thought at the time he just couldn't see the open WR's. Yet when looking at the last half of 2020 and his first two games of 2021 while still healthy he was very productive. So while it may be right or wrong, it seems that the injury was just as much in his head as it was in his shoulder. Because I certainly didn't see that pre injury.

As far as being predictable I think there is some justification for people saying that. But you see, when you have a QB playing with a torn labrum as Baker was, the defense knows you're limited in what plays you can run. The defense doesn't have to account for designed roll outs or audibles where the QB has the option to run unless it's to scramble away from pressure. The the injury itself makes your O more predictable in and of itself.

For me the biggest question is why they were playing an injured Baker over a healthy Keenum? Maybe we have a little insight into that due to the team signing Brissett. I really don't have an answer for that one.

As far as predictability goes... IMO it was more all the non-QB injuries that really hamstrung Stefanski. Our decimated Oline (in an offense where the critical part is dominance in the trenches) was really how our offense was knee-capped.

There were certainly a lot more circumstances to consider, I agree.

Sweet, I love the FACTS- Watson more mobile, he's more accurate, he's a PROVEN NFL All-Pro. We paid a hell of a price, but we now have the missing piece to a real playoff run.....IF we stay healthy....GO Browns!!!

At $230 million guaranteed over 5 years, DW BETTER be good. I keep hearing how great his is. He'd better be.

I root for the Browns. But I read all this "he's such an upgrade......" stuff. Maybe so. If he tears a labrum, and isn't accurate, or if other players get injured, or if, if if.

I'm, based on DW lovers, expecting several Super Bowl appearances, and wins in the next 5 years. Is that fair?

I ask mainly because after every draft and free agency, we get the "we're unstoppable" crap. I've grown tired of hopes and expectations. Do it.

I agree. Every season we think we are going to the Superbowl and then something happens that derails us. I'm not getting on the hype train this year.

This is March and there are tv shows and radio all over the place talking football.

What are they going to talk about? Combine, free agency, draft, trades. Silly crap like power rankings. What teams are Super Bowl contenders.

So, fans will have expectations. Player movement gives bad teams hope.

Last year the Browns were a "dark horse" to win the Bowl.

Where were the Bengals in the power rankings?

Last year I was all over chest pounding about how good the roster was. I had the highest expectations I have had since 1987.

Having a great roster does not always equal results. We found that out.

"Just do it." Sure that is what we all want. The NFL is full of talent. Lots of great players. But over a season lots of things happen.

Often bad things. Nobody can factor injuries. Because we all know they will happen. But we don't know to who.

We will have a really good roster when the draft is over. How healthy that roster remains and how well they play together will determine the final results

Like I said, I'll be excited if/when they DO it. Until then, not so much. I'm tired of hopes and expectations.

Agree, do it. BUT, Baker was always just scratching his VAST potential- DW is an established star, he's flat out good/great- that's before playing with good/great Oline and super backs......we don't know the injury future, but he's vastly better than Baker and we paid a HUGE price....GO Browns!!!

Then I expect Super Bowl next year. Anything less is a failure. Right?

I think you are going a little overboard. One thing Watson did do though, was have a great season on a very bad team. Even though they only won 4 games, he had very impressive numbers. As for our team last year, early in the season it was the defense that cost us some games, later in the season, it was the offense. Watson could come in here and ball out, but if the defense is giving up long drives quickly, as they have done many times recently, when we take the lead, is that going to be on Watson? Baker put us ahead a few times, only to have the defense give up an easy score late in the game.

I wouldn't put a lot of our losses on Baker only, yet, I definitely would put some of them on him. If Watson comes in here and throws picks on crucial drives, then, yes your expectations would be valid. But, if the guy plays as good as he has thus far in his career and is at a high level, and the defense crumbles, as it has many times in the past, I don't think it is fair to claim it was a bad move.

My expectations are DW is going to carry the team. You know, how we were told Baker couldn't.

If you believe that somehow you can pencil in a Super Bowl winner at this stage.

Good luck with that.

I was not in favor of hiring Stefanski. However, I can admit when I am wrong. The guy is a very good offensive mind and he has garnered a lot of respect around the league, even if hasn't w/the Baker fan base.

I love the complexities that he has acquired from the Shannahan/Kubiak tree. Plays are designed as building blocks. Often, several plays set-up a huge play that a variance. The run blocking schemes are out of this world. The route trees are strategic. I feel very good about this offense moving forward now that they have a trigger man.

jc

Welcome back. At some point the last few days I wondered what you thought of this QB fiasco.

I don't believe that, but according to some on here, DW was all we were missing.

If you don't think DW is an upgrade over Baker from a pure football perspective, I don't know what to tell you.

It is very telling and encouraging (again, from a football perspective) that we just replaced a QB that is being talked about having to add a draft pick to get someone to trade for his contract with a QB that multiple teams were willing to give up 3 1st round picks for.

Did I say that? Here's a clue: NO, I didn't.


Here's what I said, since you're struggling with the written word: I expect DW to carry the team.

How am I supposed to take this statement, which you made in this thread: "But I read all this "he's such an upgrade......" stuff. Maybe so."

That statement, coupled with tone in your other posts, made me feel like you did not feel that DW was a definitive upgrade over Baker. Sorry if I read that wrong, but those were your words.

If that's not what you meant with that statement, then maybe you need to choose your written words better.

j/c...

Or maybe you need better comprehension.

Everything I've read from the pro DW fans is he's such an upgrade. Great. Every year I hear/read how "Oh, this is the year, we got X Y Z" Can't be stopped.

I bought in for a number of years. I'm not buying in and getting my hopes up this coming year. Does that make sense to you??

DO IT, then I'll buy in. Tired of it all. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. My hopes for this coming year? Win more than we lose.

The 'hype' people? Super Bowl.

You may be expecting too much. He never carried Houston. Houston only had two winning seasons ('18 & '19) in the five years he's been a Texan and their offense was never ranked higher than middle of the road, never even cracked the Top 10 in points or yards. In every one of the other three seasons they had only FOUR wins. Yes, they had issues, but if he can carry a team, that's probably not what it looks like.

If we don't make it to the 2nd round of the playoffs... we should probably fire Stefanski or force him to turn over playcalling duties

$230,000,000.00 Guaranteed.

He'd better carry the team.

Those expectations are fine... I've watched DW for many years... he can put a team on his shoulders..... I dunno if we're a SB contender... but we're a better team with DW on the field....

Watson will be here the duration of the contract. Plus, the annual dollars won't be that big of a deal starting next year.

If it somehow becomes an issue, they'll restructure it in two years and add years onto it.

The contract really is a non issue.

And he will carry the team. I'm just glad the team recognized you cannot win without great QB play.

We will find out.

no one knows the cap for next year

Based on that upward trajectory, the cap is expected to approach pre-pandemic expectations — perhaps $220 million to $225 million — by 2023.
that's not that much of an increase considering we are at $208.2 this year.
2021 was 182 million
2020 was 182.5
2019 was 188.2

What is with the tone? Did you step on a crack?

In regards to the money. I don't understand why people freak out? It is other people's money.

NBA, MLB that is no different. If you were to enter a contract say to work on a oil rig for five years. I would want my money guaranteed.

Haslam bought DW for five years. He fully expects to pay him. He has to have the money in escrow. Berry structures the deal the best way possible from a cap perspective. Almost all salaries are structured with bonus money the first year. I don't know why people care?

"Carry the team." Team. Team means players playing together. Watson will do what he has done on the field before. Play his best.
You still need the team to play together.

The way I read Arch's comments is pretty straight forward - and Arch feel free to correct me if I am off base - but it seems to be Arch is simply stating that Watson needs to carry this team to wins and the play ffs and to the SB. That was the expectation for Baker. It seems he wants to be sure Watson gets critiqued the same way Baker was - so that if the defense gives up a later 4thQ score and we lose, Watson still gets the blame for not being better for the other 90% of the game. I read Arch and presume he is thinking of so many posters who have judged Baker in the harshest of lights and simply indicated that no matter what else went on in the game, Baker should have carried the team.

As for the salary and the cap and the contract - I don't think anyone cares about how much a player makes, the issue is any impact on the team and hitting the Cap ceiling and what other players / talent then has to be released in order to balance the books. Yes contracts can be reworked and the cap can be manipulated - but at some point huge contracts make an impact. There is a reason Tom Brady always had a low cap impact and team friendly contracts - [1] his wife is stupendously rich [2] it helps the team.

Lots and lots to unravel and play out on this entire situation. Just like the rookie signings and other trades in past years - we won't know how this plays out for some time.

The good news, at this time we appear to still be in healthy shape cap wise - today:

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/cap/

We clearly need a DE (Clowney) Jarvis coming back would also be nice. That's going to eat into the $20M number shown here. But I think we are operating from a position of strength and flexibility. When Baker gets traded - that will help also.

I agree. Our DL is currently my biggest concern. We need Clowney, another viable DE, and at least two DTs

The top quarterbacks will make the jack.

All the teams with established quarterbacks have that cap challenge. Once you reach that crazy money level.

A teams GM has to be really good at hitting in the draft after the first round. Belichick was always at the bottom of the first. He would then trade back and get more picks. Then he would cheery pick free agents for guys to fit specific roles. Short term deals that were not real expensive.

IMO Berry and Depo are a good combination. Depo crunches analytics. Berry uses his info and builds rosters.

Just my take. We have one of the best GM's in football. I completely trust Andrew Berry to manage the cap and find players.

Of all the things the Browns have going for them. Berry is number one in my book.

I will always give my honest assessment on any player, good or bad.

The issue you had was my assessment of Baker did not align with your emotional attachment to Baker. It was a trigger. You weren't the only one. At various times in Baker's career I have praised him and criticized him. Last year was mostly criticism. I'm just being honest about what I see. The only reason you thought it was harsh is because you were viewing it through an emotional lense.

It looks like the league agrees with me. I actually feel.bad for Baker at this moment though I think he did a lot of it to himself.

yall know i'm on the DW train, but Arch is correct here.

while DW doesn't have to carry a team nearly as much because of how talented our offense is, there are gonna be times where he's gotta match other QBs throw for throw. we are gonna be in situations where he has to put the team on his back and throw us to a win. our run game and o line isn't gonna be perfect week in and week out, as no offense ever is.

DW has more game winners and comebacks than Baker despite playing with OVERALL lesser talent. DW on this roster means he shouldn't have to do that as much, but 230 mill says he better perform.

obviously, people are right in bringing up that this year could possibly be a wash due to the potential suspension. but this isn't a 1 year deal. we got him for the next 5 years.

i expect atleast a couple AFC title appearances. anything less is a massive disappointment.

but all it takes (a dream, cause browns) is one SB appearance and the contract will always seem like a bargain.

I think a lot depends on how his suspension works out. Half a season of Jacoby Brissett won't be easy to overcome in a stacked AFC.

I'd keep the posts to what you think about players - because based on your posts and assumptions on other posters, you are so far wrong it's not even funny. Love your spin on "emotions" too.... I guess PFF were emotionally attached and looking through an emotional lens when they had Baker graded as the 5th best QB in the NFL from weeks 8-17 in 2020? Get out of here with your "emotional" put downs and takes.

DeShaun needs more elite WR. Cooper isn’t even close to be enough and Juice best before date was a couple of years ago. Compare to the Rams. Cinci and the Bills has a elite tandem. Mahones boy have Hill and Schuster, not to mention they have one of the best TE in the league.

Last season we were crippled with injuries, I expect a similar scenario this season. Where is the depth in our roster?

Might not sound like it, but this is a sincere question...

I thought Amari Cooper is a legit #1 WR, and he's one where his skillset and attitude fit this offense well (runs good routes, not a diva, doesn't need all the targets, etc). Am I mistaken?

It appears your emotional lens along with many others wouldn't let you see a torn labrum.

Did they ever show it on TV? Cause no, I did not see it.

And you certainly seem to act as though you didn't know it either when judging his 2021 performance. And yes, if you didn't see the shoulder harness you weren't watching. They did show that.

Well now lets see ... do we really need to rehash all of the Baker events now he is not our starting QB?

I mean Rish said I was emotionally attached and judged Baker through an emotional lens.... The implication that him trashing Baker all this time was warranted. And my very brief response was to highlight some of the elevated play he achieved. And now you want to really go and dig deeper - is that it? Or should I ask what the purpose of your post is - because as a poster you are good at posting these tweets or stats etc ... and it's left to the reader to interpret your meaning. It's sort of a cop out. A bit like having a list of 25 QB's including Mike White who you would rather have than Baker ... spam the board with it for weeks and then say it was a joke.

So forgive my trepidation when I reply to your post here.

But the really quick - cliff notes version of a response would be:

Hmmmm - was there anything different between the first half and last half of the 2020 season? Was there perhaps an underlying reason for a difference in performance? I mean quoting the "statistics" without any context might lean to thinking Baker is just streaky or got incredibly lucky for 9 games.

- Wonder if his 4th HC in 3 years was a factor?
- 4th OC in 3 years a factor?
- A new play book a factor?
- A new QB coach changing his footwork and mechanics a factor?
- I wonder if the 3 bad weather games were a factor ... one of those bad weather games was essentially the same conditions as the game this year where Belichick asked his QB to throw the ball 3 times the entire game ... Baker went something like 8-24
- Personally I wonder if - after throwing a boat ton of interceptions the previous year, Stefanski was really putting pressure on Baker to not throw any risky throws?

Maybe? And maybe after 8 weeks things started to click? I guess it's possible. I think it probably makes more logical sense than Baker is trash and somehow got incredibly lucky, including 21 passes in a row.

That's a fair assessment.

Why do you think Dallas was so eager to let Cooper go for what they did? Most people focus on the cap money and that seems to be the focal point. However, Cooper was also expendable because 1) he wasn't the teams #1 WR anymore - Lamb is the #1 WR - 2) resigning Gallup and Wilson as the #2 and #3 WR's too long-term deals and being 2-years younger with higher upsides is a more strategic move for the long-term plans of the Cowboys. Though the Browns went out and traded for Cooper as a #1 WR, he had actually lost that spot to Lamb. Wilson and Gallup actually had as much or more yards per reception than Cooper. In fact, Cooper was 4th on the team among WR's for average yards per reception. The Browns went out and got Cooper for their #1 WR spot and hopefully it works out but truthfully, he wasn't the Cowboys #1 WR anymore even if he is planned to be the Browns top WR.

That was Dallas, he is #1 for us ... and Wilson signed a 3 year deal to play for Miami.

They Drafted Lamb after signing Cooper to his contract, but yes, having a #1 WR on a rookie contract allowed Dallas to move on from Cooper's.

Lamb had 1 catch, 0 TDs in the Cowboys playoff game. Cooper had 6 catches and a TD.

Juju looked great as a number 2 receiver. He was lousy as a number 1.

It's easy to say that Lamb was the number one. Let's see how he performs with defenses focusing on him in the passing game.

When you have receivers that primarily run deep routes, their yards per catch will be higher than a guy who runs all the routes. Cooper led the Cowboys receivers with 8 TDs. Ultimately the game's about scoring points.

Honestly, I'm not sure why the Cowboys traded Cooper. Lots of Cowboys fans seem annoyed with Dallas' off-season so far.

We'll see how it works out.

Dallas is/was in cap hell, and their WR room is an embarrassment of riches.

They were in cap hall because of the Ezekiel Elliott contract too. They had to off load Lael Collins too.

Didn't they suspent Collins for some games last year for being lazy, or something similar?

His struggles weeks 1-6 couldn't have had anything to do with the fact that Baker had a new HC and had to learn a new offense with hardly any real practice time due to Covid? No that makes to much sense.

Cooper is a precise route runner with speed and hands.

He is a number one receiver. He will catch a lot of balls. He is reliable.

In the Browns offense he will force the opposing defense to choose how to play the Browns run game.

Last year defenses could play seven in the box. That will be hard to do with Watson and Cooper and the current receivers. The Browns are not done at receiver.

Cooper was an excellent signing.

We made it to the second round of the playoffs with a healthy Baker. Do you mean to tell me that after spending 230M on Watson that your expectations are that he will do as well as a healthy Baker did without a #1 WR on the field? That would seem like a massive investment into a player whose expectations are no higher than what was achieved from the former QB on his 4th head coach in 3 years without a #1 WR. I suppose if you set the bar low enough the trade can be justified even after you sacrifice the integrity of the franchise. At a minimum, anything less than the AFC Championship would be considered a failure and injuries cannot be a factor at all. The Browns set that bar level by their actions considering everything that transpired in 2021. Ignoring everything that occurred in 2021, the main cause of the Browns failure has been directly placed on the QB play of an injured player - PERIOD. Since that is the case, the supposed massive upgrade at the position is basically saying that all things considered, 2021 would have been a deep playoff run if the Browns had Watson at the helm instead of Mayfield. As others have pointed out, Watson is expected to carry this team without excuse. If it wasn't a good enough reason for Mayfield's regression in play, then why would it be acceptable for the consensus massive upgrade at the position? If you're going to pay said player significantly more than a Rodgers, Mahomes, or Allen - then nothing less than equal or better results should be expected no matter the circumstances that play out.

Circumstances that explain a situation (such as you did there) will quickly be forgotten...especially by those with much "cred" to lose regarding their initial and present evaluations of Baker.

It's no different than than the 4th Q comeback BS. Defense, crucial drops, fumbles, confounding play-calling and outrageous non-calls all contribute to that "stat". Browns fans in general are more knowledgeable than others...and should know better.

There was other stuff too like the changing footwork and mechanics, the 3 bad weather games with wind gusts up to 55 mph.

The devil is in the details.

By every measure Watson should be a clear upgrade - but then he would be over 2/3 of the starting QB's in the NFL. That doesn't mean Baker is trash or that those that only ever came to the board to comment on him after bad games, and were silent after good games, were right.

IMO every team who went after Watson is no different than the Browns.

Expectations? Lots of factors determine failure and success.

Once you are in the playoffs. One play can be the difference.

I think for sure we should expect playoffs.

The AFC is loaded with talent. AFC title game? The Bills have a really good team. Same coach. Same system. Same quarterback. Good defense.

Ravens were torched with injuries last season. They will be tough. Bengals will be able to address weaknesses. They should be improved.

Denver has a good team with Wilson.

Chiefs as long as Reid is the coach and Mahomes the quarterback. They will be good.

Chargers, Raiders, Titans, Pats, Colts all very capable teams.

It will not take much to lose a playoff game with the talent in the AFC.

As a follow up.

When the season begins. IMO the Browns will have as good of a roster as any team in football outside of the Bills.

Berry will be adding pieces. I have high expectations for the draft. However, the draft will be more development and depth.

We have the team right now or will have soon enough. I expect a pass rusher, receiver, and DT help.

One guy who I have followed for many years is Greg Cosell.

He has a pod cast and is on a show I record.

He is one of the best in the business. 👍

If the offense doesn't look different then we have to start questioning Stefanski. In 2020 the Texans were in shotgun 82% of the time. Watson has been under center only 24% of the time in his career. Last year Baker was under center 54% of the time. My guess is that we are in shotgun in a ton more going forward. How does that effect the running game?

For his career Nick Chubb has averaged 5.6 yards per carry from shotgun and 5.2 yards per carry from under center. I don't think it will have a huge effect on Chubb's production. What will have a huge effect on Chubb's production is that he will probably be running the ball a lot less. Chubb's efficiency will likely go through the roof, which is hard to believe because he's already among the most efficient running backs in the league. in 2021 Chubb faced an average of seven defenders in the box (the most in the league). With Watson at QB teams will have to have more players in coverage. Chubb might, no exaggeration, average six yards per carry in 2022.

With the team being heavily analytically orientated the coaching staff will know they have to pass more because of how talented Watson is. In 2022 passing is much more efficient than running. In 2020 with the Texans Watson averaged 8.9 yards per pass attempt. We were the best rushing offense in 2021. We averaged 5.1 yards per carry.

The thing I think we will see Watson doing more of is play action. Watson has 175 play action pass attempts in his entire career. Baker had 89 play action passing attempts in 2021 while missing three games. On those sparse play action attempts Watson has been very good (9.4 yards per attempt). Baker averaged 9.5 yards on play action attempts in 2021.

Another aspect that I anticipate changing pretty significantly in 2022 is the RPO game. Baker had nine RPO attempts in 2021. In 2020 Watson had 56 RPO attempts (9.3 yards per attempt).

Our personnel groupings will also be interesting. In 2020 the Texans had three wide receivers on the field 64% of the time. Last year we only had three wide receivers on the field 45% of time.

So this is what I would conclude. More shotgun but not 82% of the time. Less handoffs to the running back and more passing attempts. Watson will do way more play action than ever before. A lot more RPOs. More receivers on the field.

Questions.

Is the play action more effective out of shotgun or under center? Or a wash?

Is a roll out more effective shotgun or under center? Or a wash?

The reason I ask is that for a shorter QB dropping back from the LOS helps. I forget the numbers but I've seen the numbers that show for a 6ft QB to see over a 6'6" OL he needs one more step back.... Or whatever the numbers are... Maybe it was 2 steps and 6'7" or 6'5".... My guess is Brees and Wilson who are similar in height were out of shotgun much more than Baker in 2021. I'm trying to figure why we would buck that trend. What is the advantage? Add the injury, you'd think SG would be beneficial there too.

I believe the thinking is that play action is more effective from under center because the defense has less time to react to the potential handoff. The running back is coming downhill at the exchange point and closer to the line of scrimmage. If you're going to stop that run from getting positive yardage, a LB has to trigger and go. From shotgun, the RB has less momentum built up and is farther from the line of scrimmage, so the LB can wait a bit longer before committing to the run and is less likely to get sucked up and open a void in coverage behind him.

Not sure about rollouts. Probably more of a wash.


I usually think of dropping back as what a QB does from under center so your wording threw me off there for a bit. You'd think the shotgun would be beneficial for protecting a QB, but to me our OL was better at run blocking, so the added threat of the run from play action under center could have been viewed as slowing down the pass rush. Also Baker seemed to drift back out of the pocket fairly frequently, and when you start further back an OL trying to catapult a rusher past the QB can instead send them into the QB. There might also be an element of while it easier for the QB to see, it's also easier for defenders to see the QB/exchange point.

I get your breakdown and on the surface you have some valid points. In fact, what you put forth is exactly what you would expect the Browns to do with Watson in the fold - if he's in the fold - remains to be seen. IMHO though, you are completely ignoring Stefanski's trend and your expectation of having him totally changing his offensive philosophy is just wishful thinking. In 2018, Cousins was the 10th ranked QB in the NFL throwing for 4298 yds with 30 TD's and 10 ints. In 2019 with Diggs, Thielen, and Johnson at WR (better than what the Browns have for 2022) - Rudolph, Irv Smith and Conklin at TE (better than what the Browns have for 2022) - and a healthy Cook at RB, Stefanski in his first year as OC cut the passing game yardage by 17%, TD's by 4 and ints by 4. More importantly though, passing attempts by Cousins went from 576 in 2018 to 444 in 2019 - a reduction of 22.9%.

In 2018 passing yardage, Cousins was rated 10th and Watson was rated 11th. In 2019, Cousins was rated 16th and Watson 13th. Oh, just a side note - Baker Mayfield was rated 14th in 2019. The point is that as wishful as it might be thought that suddenly Stefanski is going to change the scheme he has run for 3 straight years of reducing the pass is wishful just thinking. IMHO, I expect Watson to struggle early due to the new system and adjusting to the scheme. Depending on the extent of those struggles I would expect Stefanski to push the offense more into his run first scheme and again not adjust to what the other teams are doing. I've watched Stefanski now for three years and he does not set his offense up to the skill sets of the players - they must play the scheme. As much as I will hate to see it - I expect pretty much the exact same offense he always runs no matter who is behind the center.

If Stefanski runs the same offense he ran with Baker and Cousins with Watson then he should be fired.

"You get what you pay for!" If KCC went out and made a blockbuster trade this off season for Derrick Henry because last year their run offense was suspect (which it was) and the feeling was the run game was what cost them the championship the last couple of years, the expectation would be that the Chiefs would run the ball now. The problem is that KCC has a head coach that has a history and a trend of being a pass first offense. Now to use Henry the way everyone expects him to be used, Mahomes would have to have hs passing attempts reduced by 23% in order for Henry to be used properly. Does anyone really believe that Andy Reid is going to take the ball out of Mahomes hand 23% of the time just because they traded for a top 5 running back? That he would change his offense so much because he acquired Henry?

Stefanski is just the opposite. His offense is ball control and is dependent on top 5 running back play. The problem with that scheme is that 1) skill sets are secondary to the scheme 2) the offense is predictable and vanilla 3) the offense is not built to play from behind. Just as I would be shocked to see Andy Reid take the ball out of Mahomes hand 23% of the time because they acquired Henry, I will also be shocked to see Stefanski take the ball out of Chubb and Hunt's hands 23% of the time because he acquired a top 5 QB. IMHO, he's not that type of coach where he adjusts to the skill set's he has on the field - hasn't done it in 3-years and I don't expect him to do it now.

"You get what you pay for!" The Browns bought a game control run first head coach that took one of the if not the highest paid QB's in the NFL in 2019 and cut his passing attempts by 23%. He came to Cleveland and took a former Heisman trophy winner who broke the NFL record for a rookie QB, on his 4th head coach in 3 years, that was expected to do everything that people are hoping Watson can now do and cut his passing attempts by 22% over a 2-year period. I expect the same fate awaits Watson.

One further point, the Browns traded for Cooper who has averaged more than 80 receptions per year in his 3 full seasons at Dallas. No player has ever reached that level in a Stefanski led offense (Diggs 63 in 2019, Landry 72 in 2020 - OBJ missed 9 games and Landry 52 in 2021). Unless the scheme is changed, the expectation should be that Watson and Cooper will not meet career averages.

well i guess that begs the question: if we insert Watson in 2021 browns, do we make the playoffs?

NOPE. That's why all the brick handed smurfs are gone.

I don't think anyone would question Watsons ability.. He has special skills. As for fitting into Stefanskis Offense, I'm certain he will... Cosell I think calls it correctly.

But that's not the problem with Watson...

Yes.

One would have to believe that Watson would have won at least two or three more games.

Frankly, I don't get the KS trashing.

He has been a head coach two seasons. His first season he is coach of the year and we win a playoff game on the road against the Steelers.

I didn't hear anyone complaining about the offense.

Last year in my mind the season was an anomaly. Lots of bad things happened. KS played his part in that. But I see no reason to discredit him.

I am glad he is the head coach. I look forward to this season.

You can call an offense anything. What matters is if it wins games. When your running backs are Nick Chubb and Hunt. It would be foolish not to get them the ball. Especially when last year you are hamstrung by an injured quarterback. Saying he doesn't adjust to personnel is not true.

The quarterback room and the receiver room will be different this year. Hooper is gone(thank goodenss). We still have an excellent OL. We still have Chubb, Hunt, and D'earnest. Njoku IMO will see more touches.

I do not expect us to throw away the run game. Why would we?

I do expect to see us use different personnel groups and formations especially 11.

People are mad at the team and lashing out. That's why you see the KS bashing.

yea i dont get it either. i was frustrated with his inconsistent rhythm of play calling, but we had open receivers and easy plays that could've been made with a more accurate QB.

just looking at the 2021 schedule again, both steelers L, the first baltimore L, and the raiders L would've been won if watson was the QB. thats 4 games right there that would've made us 12-5. i'm not gonna be a homer and say he would've won the chiefs or chargers game, or the packers game even though it was close.

but those 4 games i mentioned are W's with average QB play. that right there would've been a division title and a home playoff game. and all the crap about KS wouldn't even be a discussion.

I agree. However, the chance Stefanski runs the same offense he ran with Baker and Cousins is zero point zero.

Stefanski's comments yesterday down at the Oweners Meeting:

From Zac Jackson....

Stefanski acknowledged that there will be a transition period for the offense given Watson’s mobility and his ability to operate from the shotgun. Stefanski didn’t talk specifics but said the Browns coaches have already begun studying Watson’s past games and developing specific concepts that may have been successful in the past.

“I think (exactly what it looks like) remains to be seen, and I think that’s our job as coaches year in and year out as your roster evolves,” Stefanski said “You better evolve. You (can) have different running backs, different wide receivers, but certainly when you’re talking about the quarterback position, you better do what that player does best. And that’s what we want to do, ultimately. I had a lot of really good conversations with Deshaun from a football perspective with the coaches, and I think we have a good plan moving forward.”

I get that we have Watson, but we also still have Chubb. I hope that our run/pass and shotgun vs under center meets somewhere in the middle of what Watson is used to, and what we have done under KS.

I didn't see any recent thread where this fits, and didn't want to start a new one. Sorry for the tangent.

https://theathletic.com/3214364/202...s/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

“I haven’t had a (full) offseason yet with players,” Stefanski said. “Year 1 was the (COVID-19) shutdown. Year 2, as you know, was a little bit different (most Browns offensive players did not attend voluntary workouts), so I’m looking forward to having a normal offseason.”

I thought it was a little interesting that Stefanski equates a 'normal' offseason as one where players show up to both mandatory and voluntary. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it sounds like a dig at what the offense did last year.

Or maybe it's nothing. The Athletic is a great subscription.

KS has been accused of poor play calling. Not sure that's the case.. Might he have called plays that he thought an injured Mayfield might make work? Isn't that possible.

Personally I am also glad he's here. But I do think the team overreacted to a bad season brought on for the most part by injures to key players.

We should/could be a juggernaut this year with Watson. As long as we get some receivers...

This was my point. Stefanski is too smart not to change.

With an injured Baker or pre injured Baker?

We easily win the division.

Yes.

Look... I was a Baker fan up until the end, but even Baker's potential ceiling isn't as high as what Watson is gonna bring to the O.

That's really not what I'm saying. I think it would be hard for anyone to make a legitimate argument that Watson isn't an upgrade at the QB position from strictly a player aspect.

My position is that trying to point out that a coach was calling certain plays has nothing to do with a QB's injuries or limitations isn't a legitimate argument. One only needs to look at the difference in 3TE sets from 2020 to 2021 to see adjustments were made after Baker was injured. My comment was more about Stefanski being forced to use what he had to work with than any "set in stone" claims people are making.

His comments posted above already show he is planning to adapt the offense to Watson's skill set. A coach has to work with the players he's been given and the limitations that injuries dictate. One must also consider the limitations that those injuries on the OL played into all of this. You can't run an O that you lack the tools to execute.

I'll play...if Baker didn't get hurt and OBJ wasn't a cancer...and the Hammer didn't muff the punt against the Chiefs...we would have won the Super Bowl.

j/c:

I think Stefanski has a great scheme. I also think that there is some misinformation being given. It sounds true on the surface, but is leaving out key details that change the results substantially. I think that this incorrect information is being given to protect Baker and put the blame on others. People can cite stats from Minni, but they refuse to include some extenuating factors about the injuries to the receivers that year. And they are certainly ignoring how Zimmer mandated that the team stop passing the ball so much and rely more on running and the D. Deliberately making a man look incompetent when he is not is not a very nice trait.

With all due respect, a trend is a trend. I also find it very interesting that a defense for his coaching in 2021 is an injured WR group, offensive line injuries, RB's missing games, and poor QB play but when it comes to Baker none of those things had anything to do with his play not even considering he was playing injured and not to mention the subject play calling. Secondly, who the hell is responsible for setting the lineups for the games. It might be hindsight now but considering the struggles Mayfield was experiencing almost on a weekly basis, who is the person who has the responsibility for him playing? This constant BS that Baker said he was healthy and Baker was medically cleared to play has nothing to do with the decision to keep playing a freaking player that was on the field with multiple injuries and wasn't performing up to expectations. What the hell do the Browns have a head coach for if the players are going to decide whether they play or not.

The constant defense of Stefanski for his screw ups in 2021 and the placing of the season woes on a QB that he - the ultimate decision maker - gave the green light to play week after week when he knew the player was playing at less than 75% is disgusting. Now I get to read post after post bashing Mayfield for everything that went wrong in 2021 except for the weather in Cleveland while excuses run rampant for what Stefanski had to deal with and he'll be better in 2022. Hmmm, something that Mayfield is not getting an opportunity for since he was the fall guy. The ultimate decision maker bears no responsibility and obviously only carry's the job in title alone.

In this forum alone, there's constant posts about Stefanski winning coach of the year in 2020 and 2021 was full of problems and it's expected that the 2020 Stefanski will be back in 2022. Wow, and he didn't even have an injury that effected his coaching in 2021. Mayfield though, screw the fact he QB'd a team that was 1-31 when he arrived and led that team to a 2nd round playoff in 2020 in his 3rd year. Never mind that the last 3/4's of 2020, Mayfield was a top 5 QB in the league. In 2021, he regressed while playing 14 games with a serious injury that also caused numerous less serious injuries that effected his play but none of the other team issues had anything to do with Baker's performance or the ultimate decision maker not being held accountable for a single week of trotting a player out there that he knew was struggling because of injury and other team issues. Oh wait, Mayfield was the person making the decision whether he played or not - Teflon Stefanski doesn't decide who plays and bears no responsibility for anything that happened in 2021.

Well, now the Browns have their franchise QB. Everything is great now and the Browns are Super Bowl bound. That is of course being dependent on Teflon Stefanski changing his scheme. If he doesn't, don't worry, Stefanski and the fans will find someone else to blame but it won't be the ultimate decision maker - he's already chased away Diggs, OBJ and now Mayfield - who's next?

You are certainly entitled to your point of view. I just disagree.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/new...ry-paul-depodesta-at-nfl-owners-meetings

Quincy is always fair in his perspective.

On a side note. I watched Browns games with a very close friend for over 30 years. He passed away three years ago. Quincy is younger but damn he reminds me of my friend. His takes. His voice even. So i listen to Quincy every day. It reminds me of discussions I used to have.

do we think schwartz is gonna be able to take a step forward this season? what about DPJ?

Swish, I think Watson is going to make everyone look better. It's just a shame we still don't have OBJ and Juice.

Curious as to your opinion of Schwartz?

I think he can serve a role on the team. Great speed that can stretch the D and help open things up for other receivers who are more natural receivers. I think he went a round too high, but I don't hate the choice. I know he took a lot of grief on here [the Alternative Universe] about the pick, but man, that throw should never have been attempted. You don't lead a receiver into a crash course w/a free running defender that far downfield. I just think many fans miss out on the subtleties of the game. With that said, I think Schwartz might develop, but I see him more as a complimentary guy than anything else. Of course, I've been wrong many times.

Hey Fate..... I have a question for you. Did Schwartz contribute on Special Teams during the season? If so, how did he do?

Hope you don't mind me chiming in. Schwartz did not have any catches or run backs on special teams. He had 10 catches for 135 yds and 39 yds rushing with six carries. Might have something to do with his concussion. Wouldn't say he contributed on Special Teams.

Thanks bro. I was wondering if he was on the kickoff or punt coverage teams. It really helps when marginal receivers can contribute on coverage teams.

Appears with the interception that led to Baker's injury and his concussion , there was some under utilization of play.

My problem with Schwartz...he seems to have an issue hanging onto the ball, more concerned with getting hit, looking for defenders before securing the ball...leading to drops.

He is very raw and somewhat of a 'project' who needs a lot of work.

Pro-football-reference shows 52 special team snaps (15%). 15 kick returns averaging 21.5 yards per return with a long of 35. Not sure if the other snaps were touchbacks or what. He's credited with 2 tackles, but they may have been after turnovers. He did miss 3 games in the middle of the season and was only on the field for 33% of the team's offensive snaps.

I think part of his lack of reps as a kickoff returner is because of the concussion. He didn't start the season as a returner but he took over for Felton I believe.

He ran back a few kickoffs as Bull Dawg indicated.

His speed hasn't really translated yet. His hands are a bit suspect. He doesn't have much jiggle... picture Forest Gump. I think it was a wasted pick.

I also think Berry got played a bit trading up for JOK. Can't complain, but we traded the higher of our 3rd round picks to Carolina (89) along with 59. Our other 3rd was only two slots lower, at 91, we should have dealt that. As it turns out, Houston lead-frogged us (traded with Carolina for our original pick lol) to snag Nico Collins.

I love Nico and had him on my wish list last year, I knew we would be close and thought we may have to move a few picks to grab him. He didn't have a great season, but improved a lot over the year. I'm sincerely hoping he was our target and we just got played... if the FO had Schwartz ranked higher, you can color me disappointed (and confused).

One of the reasons sited in drafting Schwartz was his intelligence.

Schwartz was injured during the season at different points. The offense was stuck in low gear. Baker was limited. Play calling was limited.

We became dependent upon 12/13 sets using the run game. Teams stacked the box and dared us to throw. The offense was bad.

As a speed player who was a receiver project Schwartz got lost in the shuffle.

This off season is important for Schwartz. He has a "to do" list to work on. Jarvis has been a mentor to him. If he is to make it in the NFL this year is key.

He will come to camp in a different place with a year behind him. He will be in offense that will go to more 11 personnel. He will have a much different quarterback. All of the changes should be a benefit to his game.

DPJ is a different player in a different place. He has the potential to be a solid #2 playing both X and Z. He is a good route runner. He has developed and should play a large role with DW as quarterback.

Schwartz has potential but he must seize the moment this year.

Thank you.

With Deshaun Watson aboard, Kevin Stefanski doesn't rule out wholesale changes to offense

Nate Ulrich
Akron Beacon Journal
link


PALM BEACH, Fla. — Browns coach Kevin Stefanski realizes he must strike a balance this offseason between tailoring his offense to Deshaun Watson and preparing for life without the controversial quarterback.

When the Browns acquired Watson on March 18 in a blockbuster trade with the Houston Texans, Cleveland's brass knew bracing for the NFL to suspend Watson would come with the territory.

The Browns not only shook up the top of their quarterback depth chart by securing Watson to replace Baker Mayfield, but they also traded backup QB Case Keenum to the Buffalo Bills on March 19 and signed Jacoby Brissett to fill the role.

Two dozen women have accused Watson of sexual misconduct or sexual assault during massage appointments. He faces 22 active lawsuits stemming from the allegations, but two grand juries in Texas decided March 11 and Thursday that he wouldn't be criminally charged. Watson continued to deny all wrongdoing Friday during his introductory news conference with the Browns.

The franchise will use its 33rd starting quarterback since its rebirth in 1999 when it opens the 2022 season in September.

And that starting QB might be Brissett instead of Watson, who will likely be suspended for at least part of next season.

“It's something we've spoken about,” Stefanski said Monday morning during the NFL owners meetings at The Breakers Palm Beach resort. “Until we know that final answer, I'm speaking in hypotheticals right now.

“But we have to be ready for whatever decision is made potentially go to Jacoby for a portion of it or not. We'll wait and see what the league has, and we'll plan accordingly when it comes to practice and those type of things.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Deshaun Watson expected to report to Browns headquarters April 19 for start of offseason workout program


Stefanski said he hasn't received clarification from the NFL about when it'll render a decision on a suspension.

In the meantime, the Browns are eyeing the start of their voluntary offseason workout program April 19 at CrossCountry Mortgage Campus in Berea, and Stefanski said he expects Watson to be in attendance from the onset.

There will be plenty to sort out, particularly what Stefanski's offense will look like with Watson at the controls instead of Mayfield. The Browns are expected to trade Mayfield, but they're in a holding pattern right now as they seek another team to take on the former No. 1 overall draft pick's guaranteed salary of $18.858 million for the next season.

"I think everybody understands the situation," Stefanski said, "and we’re hoping that there’s closure to it at some point."

Broken relationship with Baker Mayfield:Browns' Jimmy Haslam denies 'adult' at quarterback comment came from ownership

Browns legend Bernie Kosar:'Baker Mayfield at 100% is absolutely going to be a winning QB again'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How much will Cleveland Browns change their offense for Deshaun Watson?

When the Browns hired Stefanski as head coach in January 2020, he brought a system to Cleveland he learned from Gary Kubiak while they worked together in 2019 for the Minnesota Vikings. Its staples are play-action passing and a running game powered by outside zone blocking.

“As your roster evolves, you better evolve,” Stefanski said. “... When you're talking about the quarterback position, you better do what that player does best, and that's what we want to do, ultimately. I had a lot of really good conversations with Deshaun from a football perspective, with the coaches, and I think we have a good plan moving forward. But that'll be an evolution. I mean, that that'll be an evolution over the weeks, months.”

Will Stefanski go as far as essentially tossing his Kubiak-inspired scheme out the window?

“Ultimately, we want to run the 2022 Cleveland Browns offense, and whatever elements that has in it, we hope that we have enough in our offense where we can pivot week to week to certain elements,” Stefanski said. “But to say that we're going to wholesale change everything? We’ll see.”

Stefanski said the coaching staff has already begun a deep dive into what Watson did with the Texans, who had him operating mostly out of shotgun.

“There's some things that Deshaun has done in his career that we have done last couple years,” Stefanski said, “and there's a few other things that maybe we haven't featured that we want to do more of now that Deshaun is our quarterback and really match what we're doing to his skill set.

“[We'll be] putting together [on film] all the things he’s comfortable with, then sit down with him, with our coaches, and let him talk through why he’s comfortable because what we need to do is we need to understand the plays he has 500 reps on and he has rote memory about what to do on each one of those plays that maybe aren’t a huge part of our offense. If he’s comfortable with it, we want to make sure we transition that into our offense.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Deshaun Watson allegations discussed in meeting with Cleveland Browns

The Browns talked football when they met with Watson on March 15 in Houston during the sweepstakes for the three-time Pro Bowl selection's services.

“It was really showing him who was on our roster, who we have,” Stefanski said, “and then certain schematics that we featured previously and then really going through the tape of what he had and showing him some of the things that he's done that work.”

Deshaun Watson allegations discussed in meeting with Cleveland Browns
The Browns talked football when they met with Watson on March 15 in Houston during the sweepstakes for the three-time Pro Bowl selection's services.

“It was really showing him who was on our roster, who we have,” Stefanski said, “and then certain schematics that we featured previously and then really going through the tape of what he had and showing him some of the things that he's done that work.”


But Stefanski insisted he also spent time asking Watson tough questions about the allegations he faces.

“I won't get into all the specifics, but I will tell you that's an important meeting to get face to face for the first time and ask those questions and understand the person,” Stefanski said. “So I think it's an important step in that process was getting is front of him and finding out what he was about.”

Despite Watson's off-field baggage, the Browns traded six picks for him, including a first-round choice in each of the next three drafts, and signed him to a five-year contract worth an NFL-record $230 million fully guaranteed.

Marla Ridenour column:Browns' Deshaun Watson trade triggers past for sexual assault victims. I am one of them

Stefanski declined to provide details, but he discussed the decision with people inside and outside of the Browns organization. He consulted his father and longtime NBA executive Ed Stefanski. He indicated he also spoke with chief of staff/assistant wide receivers coach Callie Brownson and other women who work for the Browns.

“We want people to be involved, and I wanted to do way more listening than talking in those discussions and understand where everybody was,” Stefanski said. “It's hard and complicated and not easy, but I think it was my job and our job to listen. It's my job to continue to listen and continue to have that dialogue with all of our staff, particularly our women.

“I've tried, we've tried to be so understanding of everybody's viewpoint on this because it's really, really, really important. I want to just make sure that I'm available in our building to everyone to talk through because it's not something that was taken lightly. It's just too important. I wanted to make sure that everybody understood that this is something that took weeks, months, weeks of gathering information, of discussions and conversations. It's not something we could take lightly.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Kevin Stefanski knows his relationship with Deshaun Watson will be crucial

On Friday, General Manager Andrew Berry described the research the Browns conducted on Watson in the buildup to the trade as “a five-month odyssey.” The comments indicate the early stages of the front office's due diligence on Watson began in October. Stefanski said he didn't become a major part of the agenda until after the Jan. 9 season finale.


“Until we're out of the season, I don't really get involved in those type of things,” said Stefanski, who announced earlier this month he will continue to call the offense's plays in 2022. “Obviously, once the season's unfolded, then we start talking about our plan moving forward. That's when I get looped in. But I was trying to get a first down back then [in the fall].”

Moving the chains became more difficult than it should have been for the Browns because their passing game fell apart last season. Mayfield suffered a completely torn labrum in his left, non-throwing shoulder in Week 2, struggled throughout the vast majority of the year and had surgery Jan. 19. His relationship with Stefanski also soured, with Mayfield publicly criticizing the coach's play calling twice last season.

It's worth noting Watson wasn't happy in Houston, even before the first lawsuit had been filed against him in March 2021. He asked for a trade in January 2021 after signing a four-year, $156 million extension with the Texans in September 2020. He also informed the Browns on March 17 he would not waive his no-trade clause for them, only to reverse course the next day and choose Cleveland over the Atlanta Falcons, New Orleans Saints and Carolina Panthers.

“I don't have a concern about that,” Stefanski said. “We talked about a lot of things. Not to get into the specifics of everything that happened with him in Houston, but we talked about a lot of things.”


Stefanski is confident he and his assistants can maximize Watson's talent, even though the partnership with Mayfield imploded.

“I think so much of that is the relationship between the play caller and the quarterback and making sure that you are aligned and seeing the game similarly, and that's where we just have to get to work,” Stefanski said, speaking about Watson. “When the guys are back in in April, we have a lot of ground to cover. And I know that he will put in the work to do that.”

At the same time, Brissett needs to gear up to start the season opener in case a suspension sidelines Watson.

“We just wanted to add a good player at the backup quarterback position,” Stefanski said. “[Brissett has] been through it, has started a lot of football games. He’s really a smart young man. Just getting to know him when they brought him in throughout the process, and I think we got a really good one there.”

Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com.

Many of Stefanski's comments in regards to the evolution of the offense are simply coach-speak. I'm sure that some wrinkles will be adopted to highlight Watson's amazing physical abilities, but I think the scheme that is from the Shanahan/Kubiak tree is a great fit for Watson. In fact, I think he is going to thrive in this offense and the scheme that some have criticized on this board, is going to flourish w/a qb who has such an outstanding skill set.

Having everything fall in place, this will be exciting football !

"On Friday, General Manager Andrew Berry described the research the Browns conducted on Watson in the buildup to the trade as “a five-month odyssey.” The comments indicate the early stages of the front office's due diligence on Watson began in October. Stefanski said he didn't become a major part of the agenda until after the Jan. 9 season finale."

So...when/while the FO publicly stated the Baker was their starter for '22...they were (3+) months into courting DW?

“Until we're out of the season, I don't really get involved in those type of things,” said Stefanski...

yeah....riiiiight.

“We just wanted to add a good player at the backup quarterback position,” Stefanski said. “[Brissett has] been through it, has started a lot of football games. He’s really a smart young man. Just getting to know him when they brought him in throughout the process, and I think we got a really good one there.”

So...neither Baker nor Keenum were what Ski needs at QB. Interesting.

It's odd how posters want us to consider everything the FO says is a lie until they want us to believe what they're saying is the truth. It seems to fluctuate depending on the topic.

I might be splitting hairs here, but researching Watson is NOT the same as courting Watson. I think they've been relatively honest about the fact that there are no sacred cows on this team. Pretty much EVERYONE is upgradeable.

I think when this offense falls apart, Haslam will not be able to control himself enough to keep Stefanski, and then it is back to square one, but without even salary cap room. When the running game stops working because Trettor is not the center...
aw, what do I know, it's all going to be Rainbows and Cereal Brand characters, it's April afterall. Go Team!

Of note:
"We are undefeated." Felt good saying that out loud. (Wanna get those in early.)

i said the other thread i think this dude could make a case for ROY. if we don't resign landry, i think Bell would make an immediate impact on O. if we resign landry, there's absolutely no way i'm fine with letting felton take any snaps on O over Bell. anything we do on offense that's exotic better have Bell on the field and not felton.

this dude really can be a game changer, especially with Amari, Njoku, and possibly DPJ taking most of the attention.

Bell doesn't have the measurables that teams look for, especially the Browns. However, the guy can ball. I watched him multiple times and all he does is catch the ball and make big plays in crunch time. I'd love to have learn the finer points of the game from Landry because he could be a very similar type player.

i would love to have landry on this team, and bell learning from him. i can imagine plays where both of them are on the field together as well.

if that doesn't happen, i do wonder about Schwartz. man, Bell's route running is already at a good level for a rookie, i wonder if Bell will be taking snaps away from Schwartz early in into the season.

I think I agree about Schwartz. I didn't like the pick at the time. I hope he proves me wrong, but he does not seem like a natural catcher of the football. I haven't seen enough of him to be sure. Again, I hope I am wrong.

Bell has excellent hands and is very similar to what Landry brings to the table. Bell should become our possession WR as teams double Cooper and Bell has the ability to create separation. With our running game and the usage of play action the middle should be open and Bell should take advantage of that. He could give us some pleasant results. Good call Swish!

he's a mix of landry and...remember this guy? Davone Bess. i can see Bell breaking ankles regular basis by year 2.

That's a name from the past right there! Dang.

My favorite pick in the draft was Winfrey by a mile. But I do love the Bell pick and I do see Bell working his way to WR3 very soon. There is a lot to like. My memory of bess is someone smaller and maybe more of an ankle breaker than Bell, but we’ll see. Can't wait.

I'm wondering how quickly he'll be a major contributor in Stefanski's offense. DPJ is penciled in as #2, but especially with his scheme combined with the current rules, I wouldn't be shocked if Bell ends up with more targets and catches than DPJ at the end of the season.

but primarily i think he gets involved early is because other than Cooper, there really is no other WR on the roster that is clear cut better than Bell. will any of us be surprised if Bell takes snaps away from Schwartz come preseason? DPJ has flashed the most, but still needs a lot of work and is a question mark.

i think its likely that the top 3 targets on our offense at the end of the year will be Cooper, Njoku, Bell in that order. it won't be that many targets because of our run game, but i'm just hoping both him and DPJ do well this season.

Agree with all that. Schwartz was taken as a 3rd round pick needing time to develop but with elite speed and twitch. Bell is the opposite and more NFL ready right now. Being bigger, having better route running and better hands I don't doubt Bell will push Schwartz from the get go.

I think DPJ will lead the team in YPC. And definitely per target. He's going to be the chuck it up 1 on 1 guy on the outside and his rookie season he seemed to excel at that.
Cooper + Njoku/Bell should definitely get the most work under and across the middle. Hoping the light bulb has REALLY come on for Njoku but he'll still split targets with Bryant and I cos see Bell and him being v close to same numbers.

IMO DW is the new offense.

He does many things really well. Opposing defenses looking at the 2022 Browns offense have a lot to prepare for.

DW adds a dimension with his legs. So, defenses must prepare for RPO's. In shotgun or under center with Chubb or Hunt in the backfield linebackers have to cheat to the run or get gashed. They have to honor that DW can run. So, in 11 personnel. Cooper, DPJ, (Bell or Schwartz) Njoku is the single TE. There will have to be space down the middle for Njoku or in the flat. Njoku should get many more catches than he has had as a Brown. Njoku will be a nightmare assignment for a linebacker because of what DW brings as a threat both as a runner and making plays outside of structure.

Because of what DW can do. Hunt may have more total yards than Chubb. Not more than Chubb as a rusher but combined as a runner and receiver. DW will have check down options that can add mucho YAC.

Cooper specifically and the other receivers as a whole will get lots of yards. Cooper, DPJ and Bell are excellent route runners. DW is accurate and has great ball placement. That is a compliment to this receiver group. We will have more passing yards than we have ever had.

The Browns 2022 offense will put a lot of pressure on defenses. The mobility of DW and his ability outside of structure will be hard to defend.

Teams know what Chubb and Hunt bring to the party. The OL is top level. Before the first snap of a game defenses will know what they face.

This is not a bunch of hopeful draft prospects. The Browns are loaded with proven NFL talent.

I have yearned for a return to Brennan - type days. Fingers crossed that Bell might give us that. I will miss Landry.

Sorry disagree I see team starting 2000 yards at wr plus tight end
Cooper will get doubled all day and Deshaun will face 8 man blitzes continously.

What games are you watching in the Kc playoff game he put 19 points where was the Rpo that game.
How about the Indy playoff game How many points did his Rpo put up against Indianapolis?
That team was trotting out Jj Watt from 5 years ago
This the playoffs qb you are spending 55,000,000 million for plus 3 number 1s

think Bryant takes a leap this year? dude is talented.


do you think Stefanski calls less plays with 2 TE's on the field? He might think it's better keep bryant on the field, at least until the receivers gel with Watson. i agree with hunt getting more yards, and i also think he gets Felton's snaps *if* he can stay healthy.

I don't think he is that...and devon Bess? isn't he the guy Miami traded to us who turned out to be a psycho?

yea i was talking about on-the-field similarities though....

Nice post. I agree w/most of that. Also, keep in mind that Watson will be a huge improvement over Baker in regards to throwing from the pocket and being able to go through his progressions. I'm not sure about our WRs other than Cooper. I think we need another savvy vet who understands how NFL defenses work.

I think we now have more flexibility and can run 11 Personnel if we want to. I don't want that to be our base offense, though. I like the Shannahan/Kubiak scheme and I hope we continue to run 12 and 13 personnel and also add in 11 personnel. We should be a lot less predictable w/Watson at the controls.

What he did with the Texans is only slightly relevant to what he will do with this team.

I hope he does face 8 man blitzes although I doubt he will.

You are entitled to your opinion. I just disagree. What the Texans did against Indy is not 2022 Browns offense.

I believe you have to look at the offense as an entire unit.

What's an 8-man blitz? LOL

I know that is not your phrase. I just thought it was funny.

What coach has the final responsibility for the offense?

IMO KS will use more 11 than before.

However, his goal remains the same. In every package he wants options and to remain unpredictable.

We will continue to ZBC. We will run. But the passing game will look different.

DW can play from the pocket. He can read defenses. There really is no limit to what the offensive playbook will look like.

They will use two TE's at times. Both Njoku and Bryant are good receiving options. I expect the offense to be prolific. In addition the defense will give them more opportunities.

I'm curious why you think that.

IMO, the strength of our offense is our runningbacks, and then probably our TEs (?). I know we have Amari, but beyond him our WR corps is relatively weak. I'm a DPJ fan, but he hasn't (yet) proven to be that dynamite 2nd guy.

I don't think that lends itself to running more 11 than before. You try to have your best guys out there as much as possible.

Just to butt in for a moment, I think the best unit on our team is the offensive line.

Agreed, Vers. They have also been compromised by play mix IMO. They could shine brighter with better run attack from Ski. Should get more credit with more success.

We still lack a "proven" deep threat that the D has to worry about...that crowds the field and makes life difficult for any receiving options.

I never really liked the RPO as I think Chubb is much more dangerous when he is making the decision with space to decide where to go. Maybe DW's running ability/threat makes the RPO more effective...but I still prefer Chubb in the more traditional role. JMO

Berry has brought in a bunch of receivers. The Camp competition will shake out the starters.

We have talent and depth on the OL. DW can execute any offense. We will still run and teams know that.

However, even if we do not bring in another receiver. I am confident in the passing game.

The reason is we will still use play action. Teams have to honor our ability to run. In addition DW is a run threat.

Njoku, Bryant, Hunt, Felton, Grant, will be involved in the passing attack. Cooper, DPJ, Bell, Schwartz, will all have routes.

The offense will use the entire field. Space and timing. DW is the key. That is why he is with this team. The offense is through him.

Find the open man or check down. I don't believe we have any limitations. Our receivers are good enough because DW will make good decisions most of the time.

I am confident in the offense.

No doubt... but in my comment was more in terms of our possibly new preferred alignment.

j/c:

For those who are more casual fans and not into some of the packages, schemes, etc.........I'll add this. 11 Personnel is what we primarily ran in 2019 when Freddie was the HC. The first 1 represents the number of running backs and the second 1 is the number of TEs on the field. Kitchens was fired after that disastrous season and it was understood that Baker could not thrive in such a system. Stefanski was hired and ran a lot more 12 and 13 personnel and even some 22 personnel. Again, first number is for the # of backs and second number represents the # of TEs on the field. We were able to utilize more play action due our strong OL and great running game. We ran naked boots. All of these things helped Baker improve. Some folks are now claiming that Stefanski's scheme hurt Baker. I think that is false.

What Watson brings to the team is that he can be good in any of the packages. We can mix up our personnel packages. That's a huge benefit. Personally speaking, while I hope we mix in 11 Personnel, I prefer that we still use 12 Personnel as our most used package. I think that plays to the strengths of our offensive personnel. I do think that we still need another experienced WR. I really wish Landry would have came back, but that doesn't look like it's going to happen.

A little bit more on 11 Personnel. If you run a lot of 11 Personnel, you better have two excellent tackles. You also need a qb who can make quick decisions because he is going to get pressured. Your receivers better be able to be good at making sight adjustments and hot reads and your qb has to excel in that area, as well. The benefit is that you are really putting a ton of pressure on the opposing secondary. You can run a ton of combination routes that exposes holes in your coverage and your number of big plays should increase.

Good stuff. And it's not like you need to reach some point of "utopia", with all those moving parts, for it to be devastating to a defense... especially with all our weapons. Now we have a QB that can execute from that platform.

re: what you said about needing 2 good tackles.... does having a mobile QB somewhat mitigate that? I assume that the need for the better tackles is because you have more people running routes and less available to block. Just curious.

I get how we have the QB to run more 11. I did think that Baker could eventually get to a point where he'd be good enough between the ears with the stuff after the snap, but Watson is an obvious upgrade in that area. What I don't understand is why we would run more 11 with the rest of our skill positions. We are an embarassment of riches at RB, and I'd argue Bryant brings more to the table than the WR that he'd come out for. IMO, you try to get your best guys out there as much as possible.

Whoever is responsible for the offense, whether it is Kevin Stefanski, or Alex Van Pelt or someone other,
IF!
The Browns spread the ball around soo much, Again, that no pass catcher can have very many catches, and most don't hit 37+ catches until the end of the year IF at all,
If that happens,
Then,
After this changeover of the Head Quarterback, and the changeover of the receivers, it will begin to be evident, that, it has to be a coach or scheme or game playing strategy that is holding back the abilities of the players to, you know, get more than a couple catches per game, in any of their games, and if it's the coaches, and schemes' fault... then what would really be going on, what would, I mean, what would we be doing here/there. Doubling down on a scheme on offense that doesn't work very well? Even after the whole cloth personel changes?
Or,
If not, and things go fine,
then somebodys going to get more than 6 catches per game, (SOME game.)
So again, What coach is the most responsible for the offense?

I don't know.

A mobile qb can help provided he has time to even get back to his proper depth and can get a look at where the rush is coming from.

As to the second part of your opening paragraph.........yeah, think about it......only having one back and one TE who may be going out on a route leaves your tackles on an island. Here is a visual. Remember the last Steeler game last year when Baker was sacked 9 times and how we were not doubling and chipping Watt? Stefanski opened up the playbook that game to let Baker do it. He got away from all the 12 and 13 personnel that people were complaining about in regards to how much those packages hampered Baker. It was a disaster.



I agree w/you and that is why I said while I hope we implement some 11 personnel, we use 12 as our most prominent package.

One aside that is kinda related........I was watching NFL Live a little while ago and they were talking about the QBs in the AFC North. They put a graphic of Watson's league rankings since 2017 outside the pocket. He was up at--or near--the top in multiple important categories. Ninkovich was talking about what a great job the Browns do of booting their qbs w/Stefanski. There was a graphic about it and I am pretty sure we ranked 4th in terms of doing that the most. They went on to talk about how devastating Watson is going to be in that scheme because if you are playing odd man coverages and the DBs are in trail and run positions, DW will be able to run for 20 or more. He was saying it's a nightmare for DEs and Linebackers. It was pretty cool to hear. I'm excited about our possibilities.

You also have to take into account who the defense puts on the field to offset our personnel. Swapping Bryant for a WR probably brings a CB in for a LB and likely changes the numbers in the box. Let a CB have to tackle one of our RBs a few times and see how fast business decisions start being made.

Throw in the fact that pocket manipulation wasn't Baker's forte and he needed extra bodies to try to buy him more time/distance from the edge. Oklahoma spoiled him with clean pockets. He could drift wherever and generally be fine. In the NFL, he had a tendency to drift into trouble.

Watson is much better at stepping up into the pocket. He doesn't necessarily need the lengthened edge and can process faster to take advantage of more potential targets.

A speed receiver could also lighten the box count by drawing over the top help from a safety. Teams weren't overly threatened vertically by Bryant's ~4.7 speed.

Harrison has provided value for us and can continue to contribute, but it should be nice to be able to adjust gameplans/personnel packages based on the opponent rather than being somewhat pigeon-holed by our QBs requirements.

That is the whole enchalada.

Quarterbacks who are a real running threat outside of structure hurt you.

DW in the pocket will kill you if the defense vacates space. He has checkdown options and he can take off for 20.

We are good enough at receiver and TE. We are exceptional on the OL and running back. The offense has to be looked at as a whole not parts because that is what will make it work. The open options and being unpredictable from many looks.

My wish is to sign Clowney and Akiem Hicks. We then will be good to go.

Does DeShaun Watson take a lot of sacks? Yes.
Are they his fault the times he gets sacked? Some.

https://theathletic.com/2240998/2020/12/09/texans-deshaun-watson-sacks/

I do not understand the enthusiasm about our offensive "weapons"...yes...we have TWO great RBs...but we have nothing but potential at TE...ONE proven WR...two developmental WRs...a good-looking rookie WR and a handful of practice squad WRs. We STILL don't have a legitimate deep threat.

Yes...there is time to sign another guy or two...but until that actually happens...we are asking our new QB to make chicken salad out of...

Cooper is a deep threat.

DPJ is going into his third year. He is a deep threat.

Schwartz is a deep threat. I understand Schwartz has to prove it. However, internally I believe the Browns expect him to have a good year.

Both Njoku and Bryant are TE who can catch the ball.

In the end it is DW. The closest thing we have seen of elite play at quarterback was the second half of 2020. That year we won a playoff game on the road.

The NFL is about quarterback play.

I hope you are correct...I fear that I am.

I agree that Watson is the type of QB who can elevate others. Those guys are rare.

I also agree that another deep threat is not "needed." Cooper can get deep. So can Schwartz and even DPJ.

On the other hand, we lost two excellent receivers in OBJ and Landry and right now we are in a position where we are going to have to rely on unproven guys as our #2 and #3 options. Personally, I am not comfortable w/that. I am NOT saying that Bell, DPJ, and Schwartz can't step up, but we have a very good roster and scheme. I would like one more proven WR on the roster. Someone who can read coverages, exploit holes in zone coverages, run precise routes, understands the nuances of the game, etc. If that means we need to spend more money, so be it.

I am not saying we are the Super Bowl favorite in the AFC, but I think we have a chance to represent the conference. There are a ton of excellent teams in the AFC and some elite QBs. We're close enough that I think it would be worth it to overpay for one more quality WR for a year or two.

Unfortunately, I don't really see a quality receiver worth overpaying still available. T.Y. Hilton, maybe, though I don't know how much he has left in the tank. Apparently Jarvis wants too much of an overpay, and we drafted his replacement. Plus, I also tend to think his tank is running a bit low as well. His mind is willing, but his body has taken a beating.

I think DPJ is ready to step up and would have been much better last year if he'd had better QB play. If the young guys are going to keep improving, they are going to need reps. It looks like we're going to see how well this staff can actually develop players. I know the precedent isn't very promising and can lead to trepidation. Yet, if we're going to have sustained success, development will be critical. Hopefully, the FO and coaching staff have a good handle on where everyone is at on the learning curve.

I believe the receivers will shake out. Although I would love Jarvis back.

Because of the way Bell plays IMO he will step right in. Bradley, the UDFA, Woods, maybe someone will check in.

The season is long and lots can happen.

I think the Bills are the best team in football. That does not mean they will win the SB.

We have a roster who can play any team straight up. So, I am all good.

I think the term "deep threat" gets thrown around alot
And it applies to less targets than people might think

Any WR can run a deep route.it's the most basic pattern in the route tree
But very WRS are actual deep threats
Amari Cooper is not a deep threat. He had only one catch
Over 40 yds last year
Anthony Schwartz until I see different is not a deep threat
Chase ,Kupp, Cooks, Watkins, Adams, Mike Williams ,
Hollywood Brown, Samuel, Hill are all deep threats

DPJ is kinda a deep threat but he is very inconsistant

I don't really agree w/your list and I think the value of a "deep threat" is greatly exaggerated. It's nice, but you can scheme guys to get open deep. I think we need a guy who is more polished than just a burner who can take the top off.

As long as the offense can consistently gain yards and score.

Nothing else matters. Control the ball and put it across the goal line.

Last season we won 8 games with a putrid offense. This offense will be a vast improvement.

I don't think we are done acquiring players. We may still add two or three guys.

Clowney, another DT, and maybe a receiver.

There are many good teams and lots of great players. I believe we will be the hunt. Some things need to go your way but we have a good team.

Ok...now we need to find a definition of "deep threat"...no one thinks that a "deep threat" just means some fast guy...absolutely no one. My goodness.

Let's define the "needed guy" as someone who can get behind the defense...someone who makes the DC adjust HIS play calls to respect that guy's ability. Someone who oftentimes needs to be double teamed/schemed. There is a very good reason that the phrase "takes the top off the defense" exists. We don't have a guy who is that kind of a threat. We can hope that Cooper can accomplish that or hope that DPJ can become that...but I don't think we have it...still.

We will not know until we play.

DW has never been with a roster like ours.

Until we play it will be hard to see the chemistry of the team come together. Practice, practice, practice.

We really don't know how DW will work with our current receivers, TE's, and backs.

I can kinda guess based upon how he played in Houston. We have to watch this offense come together.

I think the talent is there. I expect the Browns to be a top ten offense. Few teams in the NFL have the potential of the Browns because of the balance we could bring. It starts up front. Then goes to our ability to run including the qb. The receivers and TE's and finally what DW can do insdie this offense.

Right now I don't know. But I am curious to see how we develop.

This is the basic gospel on the subject IMO.

There are only a few very special WRs that fit the "take the top off" description as a birthright. Most of them are created within the scheme of an offense. How many have we watched switch teams over the years and not be nearly the "threat" they were within the previous scheme? Yes it takes a certain skill-set (Liam Neeson voice), but it takes the right offense and synergy with the QB as well.

DPJ has the "tools". Schwartz has enough upside in the speed dept that he can become a cog in this wheel.

It's intresting that for a offense that has the best supposed oline in the NFL and the best run game
It had a deep passing game close to non existent last year.
Why was that ? Cause if you can run the football, then your play action should work.
And many a deep completion Is off the play action
The Browns don't have one WR now that can blow the lid off the secondary
Amari Cooper is not a true #1 WR. He is only the number 1 because no other WR on
The Browns has shown they can be a number 1.
Cooper only had 2-100 yd games last year. And he wasnt even facing the other teams
Top CB every game

It is my opinion that it all is about the function of the offense you are in and how well the team executes that offense.

Both Cooper and DW are on a new team. They will be playing different teams in 2022. There is plenty of change when you stay on the same team.
Team rosters change by a third each year.

Now go to another team in a different conference.

I think we just have to be patient and see what happens. I am not going to make any predictitions.

The offense we will play this season is not something we have seen.

j/c:

I think this thread has gone off track. Can't even fathom how someone is apparently exasperated and angry. Whatever. There was a lot of good discussion for most of the thread and I appreciate that.

I think a real key to this offense is how Njoku is utilized
He has as much ability and talent as a Andrews Kittle or Kelce
It would be to the benefit to the offense if he was used
Like any of those 3 mentioned
More vertical seam routes and wheel routes, and TE screens.
A TE screen when timed up is a huge play waiting vs
A defense sending the house

LOL. Njoku as talented as Kittles, Andrews, or Kelce. Yeah, sure.

Njoku might be as big as - as fast as - as strong as any of those guys.

He has none of their intangibles and he has none of their consistency.

Why do you say this? Honest question.

The biggest knock on Njoku was bad hands. He improved a lot last two seasons.

I'm not going to make a stand saying Njoku is a top TE. Does changing the QB bring a different light on Njoku? After last year's play, I thought Njoku deserved a little more respect. The proof is in the pudding this year.

Njoku is very talented, but should not be mentioned in the same breath as those other TEs. I don't blame iluv though. He was trying to be positive, perhaps in response to my last post. My post was not directed at him. I just didn't get why someone would need definitions on receivers and say things like "My goodness" over an opinion on what kind of receiver we need. The thread was humming along w/out all the usual BS, but then...........ya know.

Njoku up until this year has had to share targets in Stefanski's
Ridiculous 3 TE sets with Hooper and Bryant. Thus his targets are diluted
Does Kelce and Kittle have to share their targets with 2 other
TEs? No. Unless it's a go to goal situation, then it's jumbo sets
With Stefanski changing the playbook to fit Watsons strengths
It should also benefit Njoku. 3 WRs 1 TE. Sounds like a mismatch
With the Chief
Njoku has been under ultized under Stefanski offense that's fact
And yep he is just skilled and talented as Kittle and Kelce
Let's remind ourselves they also happen to play for the best
2 offensive minds in the NFL Shanahan and Reid
Everybody in the NFL Is talented. Sometimes it's the scheme
And coaching that decides a players production.
I think Njoku can be a 1,000 yd TE.that's 66 yds per game kids.
Watson has that uncanny ability to see the whole field
And balance ball distribution

Bro, w/all due respect.............what did Njoku do under Hue, Haley, and Freddie?

Was Stefanski using a 3-TE scheme because of the talent?

I'm not sure I understand why you labeled it "ridiculous".

Browns clearly were not healthy enough last year to run an 11-personnel.

In my opinion, Baker was not ready two years ago to lead an 11-personnel scheme.

You are correct sir.that's a fair question.what did he do under those 3 clown acts?
Hue peaked coaching wise with the Bengals
This is the same coach that dialed up a flea flicker inside his own
5 yd line only to have picked off by George Iloka
Freddie Kitchens knows about as much offense X and Os
As Cardi B knows how play guitar
What was Freddie a run game coordinator?
Todd Haley at one point had a good offensive mind with the Steelers
Point being all 3 are no longer calling NFL plays and
Creating play books for a reason

I think The Chief can surprise people this year

In the "surprise" thread I listed Njoku as a guy who I felt would have a big year.

Hooper being gone will get him more reps. I also believe this offense will create more touches for Njoku.

The big thing is DW will occupy more attention with his ability to run and will open space for the TE.

I expect seam routes and more redzone targets. Slant routes along the goal line in red zone thrown low and away to Njoku are undefensible.

Also along the end zone line lofted passes for Njoku to jump for he should do well with.

I think he will develop a chemistry with DW.

Njoku came into the NFL young and raw. It took him years to learn to block. He has matured and is in his prime.

He is in the right place at the right time to reach his true potential.

I concur
Some times when a QB in a new surroundings , his best friend
At times is a TE. From a pure natural talent standpoint Njoku is the most
Talented TE/WR option on the Browns
I think David Bell can be a valuable contributor on 3rd downs
He reminds me of smaller Anquan Bolden.

Maybe because the QB had a bum shoulder?

I'm going 100% off memory but wasn't one of baker's strengths his rookie year good/great ball placement on deep routes? It was an absolute weakness last year. I know I saw a highlight green comment about another NFL QB who had an injury to his throwing shoulder versus a non-throwing shoulder and I understand why it's easy to assume an injury to a non-throwing shoulder might not be a factor, but going from memory (or I imagining) someone on this board here said they had the same injury as Baker (minus the break to the humerus) - they said to even raise the arm or twist the torso it was pain and impossible to get the same torque as you would normally?

Anyway - specifically the KS offense, I think we've seen him build routes and play calling to exploit throws deep. We saw it 2020 - and we saw it 2021. In 2021 Baker was throwing off target all over the field but especially deep and especially left sideline. Sure the true definition of a deep threat is someone like a TO or Moss or now we have JaMarr Chase .... but I think Stefanski's scheme and play calling together with Chubb and Hunt will create plenty of opportunities. From what I have seen Watson throws a deep ball about as well as anyone. We should be in good shape.

j/c:

If anyone is interested, I posted Baker's Expected Completion percentage for the 2020 season [his really good year] along w/his time to throw and compared them to Watson's numbers in that same year. You can find that information in The Bake Show thread along w/the link to Advanced Passing Stats.

Which really has nothing to do with the latest comments.

He was part of a 2800 yard receiving core
how have they done under stefanski?

how about from 0 wins to 12 wins in 2 years?

I really have no idea what you are asking me.

with juice officially not coming back, looks like DPJ, Bell, and Schwartz are gonna be in a very heated competition for snaps.

I usually get a little excited about a young guy. He doesn't have the draft pedigree, but I think Isaiah Weston could make some waves. I think he could end up better than any of the 3 you mention. Of course opportunity will be the key. That and he has to show up, but I think he is a sleeper.

The other guy isn't a sleeper, but a guy I think most sleep on. That's Harrison Bryant. I think the team kind of forgot about the guy. We all talk about Njoku, but we have been talking about him for four years now. Maybe this will finally be the year. Just like last year and the year before were going to be the year. Maybe there is no year?

I think Bryant will become one of the better TE's in the league. Just toss him the ball and watch it happen.

The injury to Baker had him throwing all arm which effected his accuracy on all counts especially the long ball.

It's amazing how some people forget that he had injuries to both legs and a torn up left shoulder by year's end.

People (rightly) excuse Jarvis's lack of production, due to his injury ..... but seem to forget that Baker was also injured.

You know how it works. It varies on a case by case basis.

Just so you guys know.........there is a post I made on the The Bake Show thread that I made about Baker's Expected Completion Percentage during his "great" year and the amount of time he was provided that might help clear up any misconception that folks have. There is a link provided and one can see the truth for oneself in one is interested in the truth.

Baker's overall accuracy is below average and has been. He also has held the ball longer than others. These are facts and not opinions. But, as w/any alternative universe, if some folks repeat the same lies time and time again, the reality of the truth is overcome by the reality of perception.

One more time............>Y'all wanna let it go........I will let it go. But please stop rewriting what actually occurred.

It seems you are arguing that stats prove that Baker's injury didn't affect him much?

Meanwhile there are a bunch of fans who watched the games who feel otherwise.

Your opinion on stats has you claiming that to have a different view means we are rewriting history? I don't see that at all. I mean I don't agree with you at all that the injury didn't affect Baker much - I think it affected his confidence, I think there were games when he was scared of getting hit and panicked because of the injury, I think the harness affected his ability to throw the ball and I know that the pain and ability to throw the ball was impacted by the injuries. I'm pretty sure I have read articles and listened to ex-QB's from the NFL that talked about how hard it was to throw the ball with the injury he had. So we disagree which is fine.

There isn't a "let it go" because this isn't a provable discussion or topic. Baker was something like 64% his rookie year - 59% with Freddie as HC - virtually 63% in 2021 when he readjusted his mechanics .... and then in 2022 pre-injury he had one game at 75% and in the next game he got hurt while throwing at a 90% completion rate. He had a couple ok games the rest of the season but nearly everyone thought he looked like crap and not the same guy that finished the last games of 2020. We won 8 games mostly in spite of Baker. I guess like I've said before, folks can judge Baker at his best or Worst or somewhere in between - Clearly your opinion is that Baker is the QB we saw in 2022 and the harness, torn shoulder, broken humerus and leg injuries didn't make (that much) of a difference. But let's be clear people disagreeing with you isn't rewriting history. That would be when - for example - a player engineers his departure from the team having never wanted to be on the team (provable by reports and news stories covering his entire time with the team, each offseason and during games when he told other teams to come get him and even went so far as to tell another player not to sign with the Browns) and then inventing a narrative that said player left because of Baker etc.

Why DON'T you let it go? You can't post a single post without bashing baker in some manner. Let it go.

Just to add a little color to mgh888's post, I keep reading post after post about how Landry was affected last season by injury and how playing with extreme pain lowered his production on the field yet with Mayfield - pain, injury, or limitations had absolutely no bearing on his performance. Even with the obvious reduction in the quality of his play, the chosen one, Head Coach Stefanski, paraded the ineffective QB out there week after week with no accountability for his actions at all. BTY Dog, those are facts that can't be refuted either.

Look, the Browns decided to upgrade the position and Watson is now the QB of the Cleveland Browns. Holding Watson to the level of upgrade should be the norm and no matter the situation, AFC Championship or Super Bowl should be the minimum expected level of performance - after all, the acquisition of Watson is touted as being a top 5 QB and Mayfield and only Mayfield has been holding the team back from achieving its goal.

It'll be easier watching games this year because everything is fixed now and the cancer that has held this team back has been unceremoniously removed. "GO BROWNS"

I am so happy for you VD, that you have a truly dangerous QB now. Do the browns have a team masseuse? Man that guy or gal must be scared to death.

I just hope he's still dangerous on the field. And somehow innocent.

Thank you for that post. You nailed it. Landry gets excused cause he was injured. Baker doesn't get that privilege.

But, yes, now DW is here, and he is a magical qb. he will carry the team on his shoulders (if he plays this year) and anything short of an AFC championship game will fall at his feet, and his alone.

Those that hated on Baker, and blamed Baker for last year? Hey, you got your wish. he won't be here, and your saviour will be here - maybe - and I expect win after win after win, with NO excuses.

J/C

Ahhhhhh, I love the smell of hyperbole in the morning. Or not.


Both Jarvis and Baker were affected by injury. Both have been moved on from.

Jarvis didn't touch the ball every play, and his injury didn't have the same impact on every other offensive player as Baker's. Baker's issues were easy to see as the broadcast cameras followed him and/or his throws every play. They followed his excruciating holding the ball as he struggled to process play after play after play.

When Jarvis's injuries were at their worst, he wasn't playing. He came off the field and let healthy players take his snaps.

If Baker was panicky in the pocket , afraid to get hit and his confidence was
Eroding then why did he insist on being the starting QB?
Your only hurting the team when those elements come into play full force
If Baker would have sat out took a path to get healthy, he might still be
The starter of the Browns today

if some folks repeat the same lies time and time again, the reality of the truth is overcome by the reality of perception.

And hear is how you piss some posters off and it starts somewhere and just accelerates to posters getting banned. You just called me a "LIAR" yes you have proven the "TRUTH" and I'm the liar about his accuracy.

Go take a look at our vaunted WR staff's higlight reel. What you will see is the perfect "BALL PLACEMENT" over and over again where a pass completed in stride. Proof you have that he holds the ball too long and that is because early on in his career he would scramble around and make something happen out of nothing. Then we heard about how SKI was going to "CHANGE" Baker and make him more efficient and create a QB in his own image...how did that work out.

Again here is a fact...20 TDs and -0- INTs as a rookie in the red zone. How does that happen to a QB who is inaccurate. Baker was trying to do everthing that we asked him to do. We abandoned the process of building an offense around the players strengths.

You could have made your point without insulting me by calling me a LIAR...it sort of makes you a down right HYPOCRITE doesn't it. Liar! see that is how it happens and Vers you are always the BULLY another lie btw where you set yourself as the champion of the victims... you crossed the line you just couldn't post civil - I blame myself for actually believing you could change. Still same old lying Vers,.,.howss them apples!

Baker didn't insist on being the starter - Baker insisted he was healthy enough to play. Stefanski insisted each week - despite what we all saw and the bad play by Baker and with the NFL's most expensive backup (i think) on the bench - that Baker was the starting QB.

I and many others called for him to sit during the season to get healthy and I agree with you - he might still be the starter today if he had. We'll never know.

No, that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that Baker's accuracy has been vastly overrated since he came into the league. There are actual advanced stats that prove my assertion. It's not a memory. It's not what I think. It's not what I want to get others to see. There is factual evidence that proves my claim.

I do think Baker's injury affected him, just not to the extent that he--and his fans--say it did. I have made multiple posts about how I noticed Baker had to use more torque w/his lower body on some throws last year. I have no proof of that, but I know QB mechanics and it is an observation I made. However, Baker's poor mechanics have been an issue for a long time. His short stature has caused him issues when he makes throws from the pocket. His mechanics go to complete hell when he is pressured early on in games and his footwork is totally out of whack. That's been the case for years. The injury affected Baker, but not to the extreme that many of you claim it did.

Now, I have a question for you. If Baker's injury was the reason for his poor performance last year and his supporting cast was as bad as some claim it to be and his coach had such a terrible scheme, why haven't NFL talent evaluators picked-up on those things and traded for him? The amount of denial on this board is ludicrous.

Classy. Can't say I will miss you.

At least you are admitting that you are going in w/a biased attitude and are looking to criticize Watson. That's admirable.

No tab, I was not calling "you" a liar. I used the word "folks," and not tab. I actually think that you believe that Baker is really accurate because we have all seen him make incredibly accurate throws in the past. Hell, he made accurate throws last year. I also think you were not aware of the stats that I posted about his off-target throws even in his best year. There are other people on this board that are aware of those stats and continue to ignore them.

Baker has never been super accurate. His best year in the NFL was under 64% - that's middle of the pack I think. But he seemed to be developing and improving, especially in 2021. He might not have ben (and will never be) elite as far as accuracy goes, but we saw in the post raised from the end of last year, there was a lot of positives.

And whose to say he wasn't "getting it" finally? In the first 2 games of the season - Baker threw for 80% in the games vs KC and HOU. The remainder of the season he threw for 57.7%. And that doesn't even tell the whole story - how many catches were bad throws? A lot. We can disagree - that's fine. But the numbers are real. The feedback from others with that injury was real. Commentary from pro QBs was real.

The supporting cast was injured. And I forget the stats but our Best WR was graded something like 67th in the NFL? So it's a legitimate observation.... I am certain Baker's bad play hurt the WR's, but Landry was way below his usual self virtually all season, Schwartz was flat bad, DPJ regressed and was not good enough to be leaned on as a #1 (and hurt himself). Hooper was below average. Njoku flashed but wasn't always consistent. RB's were hurt. . . . all those things are accurate observations - they are not excuses for Baker playing badly.

Stefanski has a good scheme. We saw that in 2020. We saw flashes of it in 2021. If there is 1 poster that is over critical of KS it doesn't mean that is the norm - but while KS has a good scheme and at times it looks brilliant, it also doesn't mean he is beyond criticism for in game calls and management. We went for it a TON on 4th down and our results were abysmal. If advanced stats tell you to go for it on 4th down in a certain situation but your team constantly fails to convert - re-evaluate and change the tipping point when going for it makes sense. . . when you are running the ball at over 8 yards per attempt - make sure you RUN more than you PASS ... that didn't happen. On MNF - Peyton, Eli and another NFL QB all said Stefanski wasn't calling plays to help Baker be successful. Are they all Baker Lovers? Do they have an agenda?

Stefanski did exceptionally well in a Covid impacted off-season and season in 2020. His preparation, detail, embracing of all things modern/digital probably helped him gain a significant edge over many other teams. Plus in stadiums, lack of noise and crowds may have been a positive. 2021 that advantage disappeared, we had an injured QB playing badly and we had injuries to nearly every position group on the offense. We still managed to nearly squeak into the play-offs - kudos to Stefanski. Better QB play we would have made it - Blame Baker, blame bad luck/injury sure. But we lost games where we ran the ball over 8 yards a clip but threw the ball more than we passed or where it was nearly 50-50 (Green Bay game)... We left the best pass rusher 1 on 1 with a 3rd string RT on MULTIPLE plays in a game ... and in one game we were running the ball great and needed a score on the final drive and threw the ball 3 times to end the game with a pick. So absolutely KS also shares some culpability - all the more so knowing the QB was playing badly all year. . . . Again - none of that excuses Baker's bad play. It doesn't change the fact with better play we make the playoffs .... but all is factual and relevant to a discussion about what and why we didn't make it to the playoffs.

Baker's gone. Watson is here. Watson - based on the last time he was starting in the NFL - is an elite, top 5 or better QB. It should only be good.

Baker is a accurate QB. ..just not in the 4th q. When the game
Is on the line.

That is a very fair post. I am not one to use completion percentage as a gauge for one's accuracy because a guy who throws a ton of passes behind the LOS is bound to have a higher completion percentage than a guy who slings it downfield, so I won't get on Baker about that. I like to use Advanced Passing stats to help gauge things. The Expected Completion Percentage [some call it On-target or even off-target throws] is what should be looked at. Also, time to throw has to factor in that.

I don't know if Watson is top 5. He might be. I think he is in the top 7. I think some are saying that I only blame Baker for our troubles last year. That would be ignorant and I'm far from ignorant. There were a multitude of issues that led to our demise. I just felt that Baker was not good enough to win us a championship and I felt that way even after 2020 and that is why I told Diam in a phone call that he should not be surprised if this was Baker's last year. And I said that BEFORE the season.

Last year in the 1st 9 games Mayfield threw for 8 TDS 3 INTS
In the last 8.......9 TDS 10 INTS.

He is truly a hot/cold QB
Haslam and Berry I think simply wanted a more consistant signal caller

In 2020 we had the 21st ranked defense and a QB coming onto a new system he had never played in. Yet we won 11 games and made the playoffs. Yeah, that Baker guy must have sucked. As Diam would say, stats are for.... well you know the rest. They can be manipulated to claim whatever message someone is trying to send depending on the stats they show and which stats they don't.

Class?? Is that a joke. I speak the truth. Sorry it makes you uncomfortable to be called out for sacrificing sexual exploitation victims at the altar of pro football worship.

Oh And I’m not going anywhere.

Careful Vers, this pup has teeth. LMAO, good for you Baker Dawg. Stand your ground like it's Florida up in here and you will get by just fine. Take no crap, take no prisoners, but do try to get along.

Question of the day.

Does Baker Mayfield have a Dawgtalkers burner account?

No, but one of his groupies does.

[
Vers is the reason I don’t post here much. If you disagree with with him your an idiot. And then he will pm you talking trash and stuff no one would say to another in person, keyboard warrior. Sucks too cause every once in a while I agree with him on his take
Basically the first 6 years before he joined were good years. Posts stayed on topic. No little man syndrome when disagreed with. Post stayed on topic. Wouldn’t worry about a pm from him. Post stayed on topic. Every other post wasn’t him after he just posted a rebuttal to his rebuttal. Post stayed on topic.
I guess I’m just the guy still talking about the good ol days when I could read a thread about the thread topic, without reading his nonsense over and over again almost 50,000 times.
Sucks cause I agree with vers vs baker dawgs opinion on this. But like ones political views can’t be changed with facts. My opinion of vers will never change on his personality, even if he is right.
Go Browns

Hey man, post all you want. If he bothers you that much just block him. And if he can still PM you, don't read them. And that grey flag by the post number is for reporting violations of the boards rules. All that said, nobody should feel they have to quit posting over another poster. I'm sorry went through that.

A couple of things. Baker addressed me on this thread. Not the other way around. Secondly, I don't recall ever PMing you. In fact, I just went back 4 and half years checking my PMs and not one was to you. I don't wish to bug you and I will agree to never make another post to you or even about you. How about you do the same and we can both move on?

Anyway, back to how the offense might look w/Watson at QB, here is a video on the subject. It starts w/some comments from Marcus Spears and then Quincy Carrier responds to those comments.

"Potential" in the NFL is a scary word. All teams use it. The media beats it to death.

I got lost in the word last year. I was like Odell is going be healthy. Baker is coming off of his best performance. We won a playoff game on the road against the Steelers. We added all these defensive pieces. We have to be better than we were. We might actually go the the SB.

Hell I may have a stroke.

Once again we face that dirty word. We have a good roster. I don't think it is final. We are going to add players still.

We know who Cooper is. We have a good idea about DPJ. We don't know how much or if at all Schwartz improves. Bell is a rookie but we can see what kind of receiver he is.

The rest of the offensive team we know. DW if he plays a full season. We know who he is.

If Schwartz were to become a true receiving threat. Or, Bell has a great rookie year. If both contribute in a positive way.
We will score a lot of points.

The offense could be the best in football.

Think about it. All the top teams in the AFC have the same type "if" potential. Bills, KC, Denver, Ravens, Bengals, Raiders, Chargers, Titans, Colts.

None can out potential the Browns. That is a true statement.

However, potential is not a sure thing. We have learned that first hand.

But it is damn exciting to be in the conversation.

How can anyone just forcefeed us fans the belief that Deshaun Watson, on the Browns has to be good.

I don't even know much about what DeShaun Watson was, but, The Browns played against him, 2.5 years ago, and the Browns won, Watson threw for a bunch of yards but lost that particular game iirc.

Now, it's always a new unknown thing when a QB joins a new team, or a player joins a new team, and, If Watson were still with the Texans, and had no accusers, and had played last year, and were playing again this year, and,
(See that's his best environment to thrive because it's his natural state of familiarity, with his same cohesive group of receivers and teammates and such, Then Deshaun Watson, (that is best case), wouldn't be, necessarily primed to win the AFC or the Super Bowl.

Another thing, Deshaun Watson has never had to win an AFC North Division, nor play the 6 game divisional opponents of his schedule with them being the AFC North.
We all know the AFC North is a different animal, each div. is a different animal, and the AFC North has running games, Tight ends, and defenses that make quarterbacks lose contain on the football.

Deshaun Watson, coming to Cleveland, can only be sold as a positive, must be force fed to fans as a positive, that it will be the very best Deshaun Watson version we've ever seen, it should be incredible.

This is not the first time the Browns brought in a veteran QB, (bottom line,) It's a New ,
all negative. So there won't be continuity.

Ok...I apologize for miss communicating. Thank you for your explanation just one thing regardless of who fall into the category of "Folks" as much as you HATE being called a liar I find it as crossing the line for you to make that accusation.

I understand that the "STATS" out there tell me something that I can SEE MYSELF and don't need stats provided. You can't have it one way only. I have brought up the stat that as a rookie he had an incredible "STAT" of 20 TDs and -0- INT from the red zone. That would tell me he is accurate from that stat. Its my eyes that show me when Baker is in his comfort zone he hits the WR/TE/RB in the hands in stride. Why did he BECOME inconsistent There are several things. But I do put that in the hands of the HC who coming in was said to be straightening out Baker so in other words we just didn't go with who Baker was we tried to make him fit in that Square hole. Ski I thought did a terrible job in coaching Baker. I saw Baker trying his best to become the QB that Ski wanted. Ski wanted a tall QB who would be comfortable with staying in the pocket. Baker had an incredible "STAT" of passing with play action until 2021 with the injuries he was pretty bad but why did we have Baker going to his left with play action faking the run right when it was the problem area with the injury - going left. I did a thread on that and it basically was telling me Ski did not want Baker as his QB of choice. Any ways he is done as a Brown. I don't like the job Ski did. Now we got a QB in his image - already our talent is better as Cooper is a stud elite WR. DPJ has developed nicely. And this kid we got in the draft is a younger Landry and actually faster. All last year I post my disappointment with Hooper TE. He was not a stud and went down as soon as he was touched.

So he is gone I just hope we don't lose DW for more than 4 games or else its another season shot down the drain. And again 3 years this was a solid draft to get talent later but we have to survive 3 years without a 1st round injection of youthful talent.

The offense should be better from at least this point of view
Stefanski doesnt have to call a perfect play every time
That was the thing with Baker , KS felt he had to call the perfect play with him
Bur with DeShawn even if the defense makes the play
Go off schedule , Watson can improvise and make a negative
Into positive.

I agree with you eotab. Screw the stats, screw whatever the hell else Vers or anybody throws out there, Baker is accurate. We've all seen him hit the barrel from sixty yards away, and we saw some of it in very good games. I will go to my grave saying OBJ, staff changes, and pure dumbassery from biased commentators during his entire time here hurt him more than anything he ever did wrong or poorly. In 2020, he was a media darling, and people across the country jumped on the browns bandwagon... you don't go from that to being considered a failure during a year with a bad injury without outside help. OBJ and his daddy backstabbed Baker and turned a lot of fans against him. I hope OBJ fades away into nothingness, he would deserve it. And Baker deserves another shot to start somewhere in THE NFL, not some BS league like some posters are hoping. He's no Johnny Football.

The Alternative Universe is still a real thing.

I think you need to qualify your statements in more detail or do a deeper dive.

Yes we've seen Baker's arm talent and what he can do. But does he do it every throw and every play? Defo not. So when and why does his accuracy break down? Personally I think his accuracy was shot to hell last year largely due to injury - the 57% he threw for weeks 3-18 were career lows. But even going back to the back half of 2020 when Baker was graded out by PFF as a top 5 QB - his accuracy was not much above 64-65%. . . I'd have to go back and watch some games from that time frame to comment, but as much as I think Baker is going to be a good QB for someone else, claiming his strength is his accuracy doesn't withstand a lot of scrutiny. jmo.

I go by my eyes...stats I go by when I don't have the opportunity to see.

I know Baker is accurate to me its not debatable he is what he is. I don't hold the same contempt towards OBJ after all from day one he told the Browns to trade him that clearly he didn't want in. He didn't practice he showed up for the games and he played hard.
But he didn't understand the offense and the flow. He did his own thing at times.

Anyways I'm a Browns fan through and through so they can do no wrong my fear is not losing Baker...Players come and go. Its the draft picks combined with the possibility that we will not have DW for a considerable time. If Big Ben got 6 games for one complaint oh well you can see my fear and that would not be good for my beloved Browns. I think the thought process was not all there and I don't believe Berry would have made that big of a trade and we didn't until Baker insisted on being traded...but this was handled incorrectly only because of the jeopardy involved. Interviewing DW cannot help in their decision. The kid is not a punk, he has a possible disease that he just has no control over. I'm afraid it will rear its ugly head again.

How come Baker's porous TD to INT ratio from 2021 is never brought up yet all we hear
About is his completion % Through the 1st 2 games?

Yes it is. You post it on the regular.

It's this mysterious thing it seems you must have never heard of. Injuries that greatly impacted his throwing. BTW- try including 2020 as well. 28 td's to 8 int's.

I wonder what drastic thing happened after 2020 and his first two games in 2021 that could have made such a huge impact? The mystery continues.....

But weren't most of Baker's INTS in 2021 a result of him
Making really bad decisions downfield ??
I find very little corralation between the Injuries and INTS
And how many of Mayfield's INT were because him and target
Weren't on the same page ......very few in 2021
How come the rest of the NFL QB starved teams don't share
Your opinon on this matter
It seems like their 2 points of view on Baker
The Baker fan club on this board and the rest of the NFL.

"How come the rest of the NFL QB starved teams"

How many are there - 2???

I watched all 13 of his interceptions - amazing what you can find on youtube.

Of those 13, I would say 3 were not his fault. 10 were bad picks. I would say half of those were poor decisions and the rest were the result of inaccuracy which most certainly could be attributed to his injury (perhaps).

I could care less at this point. I do remember the Kurt Warner breakdown he did on half a game of Baker's. There was a throw the flat to a RB, I don't recall which, to all the world it looked like an inaccurate pass by Baker and a pick resulted. Warner broke it down and said the RB ran the route wrong, too rounded I think and not flat..... He said it was unequivocal. Baker threw to where the receiver should have been, the receiver ran a bad route and it was a pick that looked like it was Baker's fault.

That might have been the only instance all year. Idk. But I think there was at least one other in the same game where Kurt also felt it was highly likely the WR ran the wrong route and an I completion resulted on what looked like an easy big gain.

That's rather deceiving. Not saying you are doing it intentionally, but there were plenty of teams who passed on him. Houston didn't take him, yet Goff was part of the Stafford trade and Lock was part of the Wilson trade. Indy chose Old Man Ryan over Baker. I knew Mayfield had no shot w/Indy. They were going to swap one immature qb for another. New Orleans decided to give Winston a contract instead of trading for Baker. Atlanta went w/Mariotta. Carolina drafted Corrale or whatever his name is. The Giants are not sitting pretty at QB. Seattle hasn't made a move. Some thought Detroit would want a qb.

You know.......there are a lot of folks not willing to admit they were wrong on this board. I seriously don't understand that. It's a game. Not life and death. Admitting you were wrong about a player is not some sign of weakness. Refusing to admit is. The worst part is how some are still determined to blame others for Baker's problems. Absurd.

Who would you rather have... Baker or Carson Wentz?

IMO, the answer is Baker and it's not close... yet Wentz was involved in a trade that had picks sent back to his former team. IMO, the excuse of "well it's Washington and they're idiots" is a cop-out.

I think the teams that would pick up Baker are convinced that the Browns are just going to release him and they're fine playing a game of chicken.

When you have Wentz getting traded (and still starting), Trubisky being given another starter position, Sam Darnold assuming Baker doesn't go there, Davis Mills, Daniel Jones, Drew Locke.... I think you see where I'm going here.

Neither. Wentz is more talented and played better than Baker this past year, but both are not good locker room guys and are immature. They both fold under pressure. I would pass on both.





I really don't see where you are going. Why would teams wait for Baker to be released when they would have to compete w/other teams for his services? Why not just trade for him? I'll tell you why..........Baker's ability on the football field doesn't outweigh the problems he causes due to his personality and character. Aaron Rodgers is a drama queen, but teams would trade for him if Green Bay wanted to trade him. No one had more baggage than Watson and the Texans were in a worse spot than the Browns in trying to manufacture a trade, yet multiple teams still wanted to see if they could swing a trade for him.

My response assumed the current state of the NFL - how many QB starved teams currently are there?

1. Atlanta signed Mariota and drafted Ridder.
2. New Orleans chose Winston.
3. Indy traded for Ryan.
4. Washington traded for Wentz.
5. Houston likes Mills.
6. Lions paying the horrible Goff a boatload.
7. Carolina paying the horrible Darnold about same as Mayfield and drafted Corral - possibility.
8. New York Giants did not pick up the option on Jones - possibility.
9. Seattle traded for Lock and resigned Geno Smith (ugh) - possibility.

I hear you. I tried to mention that I didn't think you were doing it intentionally. Nothing personal and I apologize if I came across that way. I just wanted the facts to be clear about there were other opportunities AFTER Baker asked to be traded.

People who wish not to see won't. The rest will.

Damn NFL GMs and coaches. Baker is really good and others are to blame for his issues and they just refuse to see it. What a bunch of haters.

You talk about alternate realities -

There are no teams desperate for an injured QB with a $19M price tag who is most likely going to be cut. . . . that's ignoring the possibility that reports that NFL teams are pissed at Haslam and want to make the team suffer a little for setting a new precedent in signing a fully guaranteed $1/4 Billion contract.

You talk about Baker's immaturity and fragile ego - and I don't think there is a poster that doesn't agree. He needs to stfu and just concentrate on recovery and being a better QB. . . all on board. But this narrative that no-one wants Baker because no one has signed him or traded for him yet is an opinion - not shared by everyone and not shared by some/many of the NFL reporters and observers. As has been pointed out above - there MIGHT be 2 teams in the running. I didn't realize how much dead money Seattle has on their books this year ... I'd say they are out. Panthers drafted a potential viable future QB. There is no team desperate for a QB. And when there is Jimmy G is going to be in the mix too - he's going to appeal to some as much as Baker. Less arm talent but more professional and less drama. It's a unique situation.

You can get angry, but I clearly pointed out the list of teams that needed a qb when Baker asked for the trade. Denying that fact doesn't change it. And please, most of you were saying how great Baker was after last year. Top 5. Top 3. I wouldn't want any other qb in the league over Baker. Baker is better than anyone since Joe Montana. You were wrong and can't admit it. Hell, during the season, I read where you said something about folks are really comparing Carr to Baker now and you were incredulous at the idea. Meanwhile, Carr got paid and Baker is in limbo. I can let this go, but when folks continue to blame Stefanski, OBJ, etc and act like Baker is this accurate qb even in the face that the facts disprove that notion, I'm going to speak up and you sir, cannot change that.

I don't remember anyone saying anything of the sort. "ost of you were saying how great Baker was after last year. Top 5. Top 3. I wouldn't want any other qb in the league over Baker. Baker is better than anyone since Joe Montana"

I do recall hearing Baker was hurt for most of the year. Which he was.

So, legit question: Let's say DW gets hurt (if he even plays this year), will you give him the benefit of the doubt, like you did Landry and OBJ? Or will you hold DW to the same standard you held Mayfield?

And further, since Mayfield won't be playing for the Browns, can you stop talking about him? Or is your ego too fragile to let it go?

I was talking about after the playoff season. Those things were said.

Landry and OBJ? I claimed injuries were responsible for their play? I don't remember that. I may have mentioned it about Landry, but I mostly blame Baker's ineptness for OBJ's problems. I don't know if I ever said Landry didn't play well. I can't remember that. I don't think he played poorly.

I have also said that Baker's injury was an issue. I just think that he--and his fans--are overstating it. He was cleared to play by the medical staff and the coaches. I don't think they would have done so if Baker's injury was the main reason for his poor play. It was a factor, no doubt. But, his issues ran far deeper than that.

Regarding Watson, I will judge him honestly. If he plays bad, I will say so. If he plays well, I will say so. I already know what you are going to say, though. LOL

I can stop talking about Baker if others stop trotting BS out there like the coach was bad or that OBJ screwed him over or that the OL was bad and the receivers sucked and that he is really accurate.

My fragile ego? That seems like a juvenile attempt at an insult.

You will make EVERY excuse in the book for DW, IF he even plays.

I'm not some BM fan dude. I'm a realist. You are on record saying what a huge upgrade DW is, IF he plays. Money. Mouth. We'll see how it pans out.

Oh, and further, I am a BROWNS fan, since birth - or, well, since I can remember watching them on t.v. at a very young age.

You got your wish: Baker's gone. yet, you can't quit harping on him.

Let's see what DW has. IF he plays. Fair? Injured or not, IF he's playing, I expect him to be what you tell us he'll be.

You sound angry. Why are you so mad at me for thinking Watson is an upgrade over Baker? What about the Browns? Did they stick their necks out to acquire Watson and all his baggage in order to make a lateral move from Baker or do they think he is a substantial upgrade? Were other teams willing to trade for Watson? Are other teams jumping over themselves to trade for Baker?

Think man.

Some of you can make this personal and attack me, but that does not change what has transpired.

1. I'm not angry.
2. I'm not saying DW isn't an upgrade, although...
3. Will you hold him to the same standards you held BM?

That's pretty much the gist of it. and on #3, I doubt you will.

Of course I will. However, I already know he is a better QB than Baker. I've watched both play. He is more accurate. He is more mobile. He can throw from the pocket much, much better. He is a better runner. They both have good arms and I'm not sure which is better? He's a better leader. He reads defenses pre-snap better. He reads coverages post-snap better. I mean.......I just think he is way better and I have already seen that. And again, the Browns and the rest of the NFL see it the same way.

Also, while you are throwing shade for the second time about me not being honest............>I have admitted I was wrong time and time again on this board. I'm sure others will verify that. One more time................it's a freaking game that I watch for entertainment purposes. Being wrong is not that big of a deal. Admit it and move on. That doesn't change the world. It's just manning-up.

And I am not angry either. And trying to use that sounds like you are desperate and don't want to stick to the facts. What I wrote is accurate. What you wrote about the teams needing a QB was before Baker was available and before Baker has recovered from his injury. Here's a clue - Jimmy G is good enough to start for a team in the NFL too and he probably will. Why is he not on a different team yet - because he is recovering from injury.

If you want to be insulting and talk down and be derogatory - I'm happy to reciprocate. Let me know. Again - not angry, but not going to put up with your schtick.

And just a side note about DW. You're the one started multiple threads about how great he is - you even posted an article about how his deep stats and analytics indicated he was the best QB in the NFL for whatever year it was that he was playing at that level. . . . funny thing is now I see multiple posts saying you don't even know if he's a top 5 QB. Maybe a top 7. So I am a bit confused by your new stance on how great DW is going to be. for 3 firsts and the largest contract in NFL history I am hoping and praying he is top 3 or 4 at worst.

As for Baker and what was said after his good year in 2020 - I know of only one poster who stated they wouldn't take any other QB in the NFL. I don't know anyone else who claimed Baker was top 3 or top 5. I do know PFF graded Baker out as the top 5 QB for the last 9 games of 2020. . . . again, facts. Feel free to find quotes to the contrary. A lot of people were high on Baker at the end of that year - NFL pundits and Browns fans alike - the thread that got revived showed that. I think it's hyperbole to suggest people were claiming he was a top 3 or top 5 QB. You'd need to find quotes to back that up.

You are not being honest and thus, I am going to end my conversation w/you. I am not interested in trading insults and dealing w/untruths.

For everyone else, please check the dates of when other QBs were traded for or signed. You can use my post in response to Hammer as a guide to show what I was talking about. I don't lie and I'm not going to go down this road again.

So - you can't find any quotes from posters saying Baker was a top 5 QB.

So - you don't want to admit that teams just simply don't trade for injured QBs and that there is no trade partner.

So - you don't want to admit that there aren't teams in competition for Baker?

Got it. And you have the gall to talk about truthful? Yeah, I should have known better.

So DW, who hasn't played in well over a year, is "much better" at everything than injured Baker. Got it.

No, Watson is much better than a healthy Baker.

This is probably the worst of the reasons given for why there's been no trade interest for BM. There isn't a team in the league that is going to pass on getting a qb they think would improve the team because of FO sissy fights.

Attacking a difference of opinion is not the way to respectful dialogue, Grasshopper. PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, VERS.

I think there are different types of fans, who all have their own perspectives and we should do more to respect that in here. Nobody is spreading lies, by saying they think of feel Baker is a top QB, those are opinions, and each fans RIGHT. Now if I tell you he is in the hall of fame as if it were fact, you'd have something to pounce on to defend your position... but why should we even have to defend our 'opinions' as long as they meet the boards rules?

This is pure speculation on your part, Vers. He hasn't played football over a year and going through some stressful events in life; we assume he will play lights out like he did in 2020, but he hasn't proven that on the field. And placed in identical situations, I personally think Baker could give him a run for his money. Hell, we may get to see exactly that this year, who knows? You can say he was better than Bake in years they both played based on stats, but they are far from the end all be all predictor of who will be better in any new year. I can remember when some of these starting QBs were not well thought of, like Tannehill. Situations and players games all change year to year. It's reasonable to assume what you are saying, but damn sure not fact, like you push it.

Maybe back off just a little on the aggressive defense of your stance, and pepper just a bit of humility and respect in your replies. Kumbaya, bro.

It's not that big of a gap! (Very neck and neck)

And Watson isn't going to play his best because of the team transfer, nobody ever does.
It's too sad to be funny.

What Offense? We're going to find out.
UH!!!
AS IF the Browns aren't doing exactly as they've always done since, well for a couple of decades. ... What offense? "OFFense", "that too."

Same Browns who gave Hue Jackson a 3rd start to a season after 1-15 got Worse!

... If the Browns were the Cowboys' they would have cut Dak Prescoctt in the spring/or summer of ? 2020? Do I have the year right? Maybe 2019, even 2018, about the first year they franchised him.
Screw Continuity

Good talk guys, a lot of fresh takes to mull over in this, ‘The Offense’ thread.

What OL position has the biggest question mark? Is it RT, with Conklin trying to overcome his injury?

Or Nick Harris, our new centre - yeah I spelled it the Canadian way - who is competing with the other fella we signed, whose name escapes me?

The offense has a couple of question marks in my opinion.

WR #2: We did not keep Landry. We have an unproven 3rd round draft choice in Bell, a 3rd round guy from last year who didn't look very good in Schwartz, and a guy who I think was a 6th round pick from the year before Schwartz.

C: We have to see Harris play before we can say if he is good, average, or below that.

LT: I think we need improved play from Wills, our LT this year. It's not a huge deal because he is at least functional. I get what you are saying about Conklin because he was injured so much last year, but he is one of the best RTs in the business, when healthy.

Our WR room is crazy-average right now...just like last year...although we now (finally) have ONE guy who could actually see the field if he were a Bengal...the potential of the room is better than it was last year.

Our TEs are 100% potential...which may turn out actually BETTER than last year.

I think Harris will be better-than-fine...he's been the #1 C in practice pretty-much since he was drafted...they know what they have in him and that was part of moving on from Tretter. I read where he put on some good weight as was needed.

My only concern with Conklin is injury-recovery and future-injuries...with Hubbard (injuries) and Hudson (too raw yet)...the position is shaky.

Wills needs to step it up...hard to say too much with the continued ankle injury throughout all of last year.

Our RBs and Gs are studs...we even have a few backups in both places that are quite good for being backups.

Our QB will likely be quite-good (plus) if Watson can play...and quite-not-good (minus) if Brisset is our starter.

Our K should be a remarkable improvement over...well...anyone since Phil.

The WR comment, A. it's not average it's less than average, Count:2. Landry would have seen the field, and Higgins and OBJ, to say Amari Cooper would, is a maybe, Cooper is an unknown as a Brown.
3. Harris is not an Average starting Center in the NFL, Harris is an average, short term replacement backup center, and Pocic should be starting in front of him, and that is all Harris has always been, until he proves otherwise, (hasn't yet.)
4. The Rb's and Guards are studs? The Guards are ok, only Kareem Hunt is a stud at Rb and only if he is remarkably healthy in the moment. Chubb is, OK but makes some big plays, but is very (get in front of)-able for any defense, and that means he's stoppable.

5. Our Wback will likely be Wuite BLANK (keyboard troubles) if Watson plays.
A. Watson will be his worst version until about 2 years of learning the Browns schedule and div. and issues so the "likely" thing is the uarterback play will be hit and miss, (with too many misses to end drives).

6. Our Kicker play should be? The kicker is a rookie first year in the NFL drafted hope of a good college kicker. (The same as Austin Siebert was). So most likely Also a hit or miss, well I guess that is all a Kicker could be, unless they are automatic, or absolute #2.

Like everyone you are entitled to your opinion. Stating so strongly opinions like Chubb is "OK" is virtually impossible to defend. By every metric he is a top - elite RB in the NFL. With better management the year Kitchens was HC he would have won the rushing title. Chubb - as a workhorse and at one time the 'only' weapon the Browns had, is averaging the second most yards per carry in the history of the NFL behind Jamaal Charles and in half as many games he has 36 TDs to Jamaal's 44.

I think you might be on an island, alone on the planet in thinking Chubb is "OK". jmo

"Hmm, yeah, miss a day and you miss a lot... 28 comments on The Offense, this should be a good read."

Disagreeing with Vers......

1. You must be angry.

2. You must live in an alternate reality.

3. You must hate the Browns.

4. This is how you know he has reached the final tipping point in the uni"verse". When all else fails, he will refuse to debate a topic with you directly. Instead he will ignore responding to you while at the same time going around taking cheap shots at you in response to other posters.

5. All the while he'll tell other posters when he believes their posts are fair. You know, because he agrees with them. He'll claim to be the expert on who posts with class and who does not. He will rail on what threads belong in which forums and which do not. He is the self proclaimed expert on all things Dawgtalkers. Just ask hm.

That has nothing to do with the offense.

While to a great extent I agree with you I think it may be a one ingredient in the cumulative effect.

In the first place Baker isn't a great QB. I think he would be an upgrade on maybe 10-15 teams but that in and of itself limits the trade possibilities. I think if I were to rank him among NFL starters it would be somewhere the 15-20 range roughly. I don't believe that teams looking to get a new QB actually are looking for what may be seen as a "slight upgrade". I think to make such a move they want a significant upgrade in order to make such a move and investment. I don't think a lot of teams view Baker that way.

The price is in the details and the details are more than just the price. Baker's current contract makes him a one year rental and nothing more. At the current time he is recovering from surgery. I think like many of us they have no real idea how much of Baker's 2021 performance was injury based and how much of it was "Baker". I think they also understand that the Browns are in a no win situation keeping Baker on the roster this season. The team is already trying to defend itself in the watson debacle and adding the Baker drama only adds gasoline to the fire.

So since I think most of us agree that Baker wouldn't be some huge upgrade in many cases, he's still healing from his surgery. His price tag seems ridiculous since most teams understand the Browns keeping him on the roster would be a disaster. I think they are sitting back and waiting for the Browns to either release him or let them know they will pretty much eat his contract to get anything of value in return. I can't say I blame them. This is a situation the Browns have put themselves into and I think they knew that when they signed watson. It was just considered a part of the deal. A portion of the cost. And from strictly an on the field performance standpoint I understand why they did it. I also understand why they want to get the most they can for Baker in this situation. At this point it seems the rest of the league has gained the upper hand.

The NFL has been fighting against these fully guaranteed, long term contracts for a very long time. That's why this contract is the first of its kind. It will cost every NFL team going forward when signing FA, veterans and making any long term deals moving forward with regards to the QB position and probably some other positions on the field. I mean you can minimize that by calling them "sissy fights" all you like but that doesn't change the reality of what transpired here.

Much like yourself I don't think that plays a huge part in the issue of moving Baker. But it certainly is at least some part of why the other 31 teams probably aren't willing to make things easy for the Browns moving forward. People are never happy when you mess with their money.

I agree with both of you. The "backlash" - if there is one, is not high on any probable reason for the current situation. But given everything else, it is a possible contributing factor. Probable not, but possible.


If Baker was a flat out, clear cut stud - not only would we probably not gone so hard for DW, teams would also not be concerned about what the Browns did or didn't do with DW to acquire him. But given the many many layers to what's going on who really knows? People are crazy enough to suggest the DW lawsuit was dreamed up and initiated by the owner of HOU because they felt so slighted by DW ... but the idea of teams being pissed at the Browns for the first ever fully guaranteed contract is too farfetched?

j/c:

Back to the offense for a moment. I pointed out a few question marks in my previous post, but the most concerning one is the #2 WR spot, simply due to the inexperience of the guys we have. I am also not as high on Cooper as some other people are. He is ultra talented, but he's been kind of a me guy and I have seen him take himself out of games at the end of very close games. I don't think he will bring any leadership qualities to the room.

I do think Watson can elevate others, though. Thus, even though Wills might not be the best LT and Harris is unproven, this Browns line is far, far superior to any line Watson played with in the past. Also, I think Watson's prowess as a qb will help elevate his receivers. I think this offense can be really, really good.

So if Wills improves because he had an ankle injury most of last season.... If DPJ improves or others on the offense improve, it won't be because they've developed or gotten better, it will be because "watson elevated them"?

Good to know. So what happens if they don't play better? I guess that would be on them then, right?

j/c:

What's exciting is how much more versatile our offense should be w/Watson. We can continue to run 12 and 13 personnel that highlights our great running game. If teams, gear up to stop the run, Watson can run naked boots or RPOs where he will be a dual-threat on the perimeter of a now undermanned defense on the second and third levels of the vertical defense. This should allow for more single coverage on some of our receivers.

We can also now run 11 personnel because Watson can excel in the pocket. He doesn't get intimidated by the rush. He can stand in there and diagnose the coverages and exploit the defense. He is also a threat to run if the Edge rushers get too far upfield.

I think Stefanski is very good and I think he put Baker in a lot of good positions. Now, Stefanski is going to have more options w/his scheme and play calling. I think the Shanahan/Kubiak offense is QB friendly and puts a lot of pressure on defenses, especially w/the utilization of the ZBS. Another thing I always liked about the offense is how it using building blocks when calling plays. It's like a boxer who keeps going to the body, abusing an opponents ribs which leads to the latter dropping his hands a bit and leaving his head exposed for knockout shots. Kyle Shanahan is the best I ever witnessed at doing that and we have a guy who has been schooled well. I think it's very exciting.

Good post.

I feel the same way. IMO Stefanski will work well DW. I love the offense that has developed in that coaching tree.

There are some OL questions and always concern about OL depth. Conklin is really good but he has been hurt a lot. Wills has the goods but he has to learn to be consistent. He does not take plays off but he loses concentration and then his technique. We shall see about Harris although Berry brought in Pocic and drafted a guy. Bitonio and Teller are real good.

DW is decisive. He reads well and is quick to release. Release the pass. Release and move from the pocket. Don't get stuck thinking or waiting. The overall tempo will be faster and that should help the OL.

We are so fortunate with our run game. I remember the Chubb draft. Sequon Barkley was being interviewed. It was thought he may go number one. He was asked a question about the "others" and who he liked. He never hestitated "Nick Chubb." I knew a little about him because I live in Georgia. So, I started looking at him. Not much just who is this guy? We found out.

Kareem is awesome. He does so much so well. Plays with abandon. Good receiver and blocker. He can smell the endzone.

I wish we would have signed Jarvis. But I am optomistic about the receivers. I like Bryant and the Chief.

IMO the offense has enormous potential. We will be hard to defend. Lot a looks. Lots of options. Motion, RPO's.

We have an excellent offensive coaching staff. O'Shea, Callahan, Mitchell, AVP are all good coaches. They should have a really good time coaching this team.

Nice football post. I agree w/almost all of your points.

I remember evaluating college RBs before the 2018 draft and I had Chubb's teammate a little bit ahead of Nick. Obviously, I was wrong.

I really love Hunt's play on the field. He is all-in. Almost too reckless w/his body. He just throws himself at defenders. I worry about him getting hurt, but that guy is a football
player.

I still don't get the Landry thing, but that ship has sailed so what can we do.

I love our offensive coaching staff. Callahan is the best in the business. Love Stump. AVP looks good, but I'm not exactly sure how much of a role he plays. I didn't want Stefanski hired, but I was wrong. He's a very good coach.

Some good posts.

I wanted to add a few things.

- i've also been a fan of what I've seen from Ski and his offense. I think he tailored the offense to be successful with the play calling the last two years. I don't want to get into much more than that, b/c the conversation could get sidetracked. With Watson, the points Vers and Bone have made covered my opinions too regarding his athletic ability, play calling and etc. So i would be just echoing what has already been said.

- Regarding Watson, I expect some rust. On a personal note, I expect him to play well and give us plenty of wow moments, but I also will temper my expectations for this year. This isn't last years team, this isn't last years division or conference. This is a new year, the AFC has brought in many top level to star QBs. The Browns have brought in their dog to this fight. It won't be easy, but you need a top level QB to have a chance in this division and conference. I am looking forward to seeing this team grow. I am looking forward to which players will rise to leadership roles.

(I just accidentally deleted my breakdown of the positions, so this version won't be as thorough, ugh.)

- I'm interested in how DW will affect other team defenses if he resumes playing the way he did in the past. Will defenses play a spy on him all game? Will this take away a man in coverage b/c of his running ability? Will this help the RBs in the running game?

- I'm interested if our offense will be more aggressive or passive like in previous years. Will we be passing to set up the run game or running to set up the passing game? I would expect we will be more aggressive due to our new QB and today's style of the NFL.

- Regarding Hunt, I agree with what both you (Vers/Bone) talked about with him. I want to add another piece to this. He is perfect/great for the second back role, because of his reckless style. Going off memory the past two years (so I could be incorrect), when thrusted into the starting role (b/c of Chubb being out) he's gotten injured or really banged up. He wasn't as effective during those period of times. If memory serves me, two years ago he was playing with a groin injury and last year it was a calf or ankle (?) when in the starting role. As a GM for another team, this would be one of my concerns about offering a trade for him to be lead back. BUT thankfully for the Browns, this role is perfect for him to show the star that he can be as a two-headed monster.

- Our TEs, Chief as we know, has always been "potential". And like most of us think/say, this will be his year. Going off stats (that don't mean much, b/c different team, play style, players, etc), the Texans the past few years with DW and the TEs averaged around 80-90 targets and 700-900 yards. They didn't have the most athletic TEs and certainly no one of Chief's potential. So we will see. I do like Harrison Bryant too. For a positive note, I can see Chief/Bryant having a solid year due to our QB having better ball placement and putting our TEs in position to gain YAC after the catch.

- Adding to that last point, I am expecting a lot more YAC out of our team the next few seasons with DW.

- Our WRs, there's that dang "potential" thing again. We know what we have on paper. I expect we will sign one or two more veterans before the start of the season. Maybe even a camp cut from another team. They will get significant playing time as a #2 or 3 at the very least, based on being a "wiley" veteran and finding holes in the D. For me, I expect to be pleasantly surprised by our WRs. Mostly due to pre/post snap reads, vision either in the pocket or vision downfield while the pocket has broken down from our QB.

- That last sentence just reminded me of a major point. Pressure....in the past we have been one of the worst when the QB has been under pressure. DW has been very good in the past when pressured. If he plays like he has in the past, this should be a huge boost to our offense just in itself.

Agree with the breakdowns on the team and potentially how the Offense will be able to operate.

Just as an FYI for you or anyone else - who probably know, but some may not - if you accidentally delete a chunk of work or text or do something in error while writing on dawgtalk - you can press "Ctrl + Z" and it is an 'undo' function. It will undo your last action, and you can press "Ctrl + Z" multiple times to undo multiple last actions.

That was an enjoyable post to read. I'll respond to a few of your points.

--I agree w/you that Stefanski's offense has been good. He did a great job w/Baker when he came here after the latter really struggled in 11 personnel the previous year. We relied on a strong running game early and then mixed in a lot of play action. We also ran boots and nakeds a lot. All of that enabled Baker to not have to throw from the pocket, a place he has always struggled. Many of the calls also limited the amount of field Baker had to read, which is another area where he has struggled. Of course, a lot of credit goes to the OL, who was rated as the best in the business that first year. Last year, teams game planned to keep Baker in the pocket. TJ Watt even made public comments about how that was their game plan. We struggled under those circumstances. I believe that is a big part of the reason why the team was ready to move on reportedly way back in November.

--Regarding Watson. I understand the rust possibility, but I don't think that would be a big problem. I expect him to play well. I am concerned on whether or not he plays, though. There is a lot of external pressure to suspend him and the NFL has been known to allow PR to influence their actions. That is why I used the words "witch hunt" on another thread.

--You brought up the word "spy." I hadn't considered that, but it is a good point. After some thought, I don't think--but do not know--that teams will do that. They do it w/Lamar, but he is a different animal. I think Watson is a pass first QB and will run if he has to or the opportunity is too good to pass up, thus teams probably won't want to take a man out of coverage to spy on him. Good point, though.

--Good points about Hunt and I couldn't agree more. I hope we keep him.

--I'm not sure about the TEs. They can thrive in this offense, but I am unsure about how consistent they are.

--Watson's advanced passing stats tell us that he is substantially more accurate than Baker so in theory, we should have more YAC this year.

--I'm not sure about the WRs. I hope you are right.

--I agree w/you about the pressure comment.

Again, that was a nice football post and I enjoyed reading your comments.

Just a few words on Njoku. I read where he turned down a $13.5 mil offer. He may end up taking it, but man talk about overpaying. That guy hasn't done anything while here. I don't get you people thinking the guy is a great TE.

He's a waste of money IMO. We must be wanting to pay for something, but it sure hasn't been his performance.

I can't wait for football to start...and the bs stops

Guess what the only stat I care about is Baker is no longer a Brown. And DW is its just there never was a similar situation where a team gave up so much and a big possibility it was for Nothing...until Watson plays and full fills his contract I will be nervous over the situation.

The success of the offense will hinge on the production of the WRS this year
If your offense doesn't have a game changer at that position then it can really
Hold a offense back.
Right now the Browns don't have that at WR.
Look at the playoff teams and SB teams from 2021.
Most of them had better WR groups than the Browns have right now

Every year each team turns over about a third of it's roster.

That is a lot of turnover. Every year each team changes a lot especially when you change the starting quarterback.

Until it is known "if" or "how long" DW will be suspended. We really do not know how the Browns will play.

How will Jacoby Brissett play with this offense? Can we win with Jacoby?

I don't know. I have never seen the guy play. Even if I did that does not answer how he will do with this team in this offense.

What I do know is the overall talent level of the team is good.

Overall I really like the coaching staff. I am glad that the staff has stayed in place. IMO it is really important to have coaching and FO continuity.

We have never had that and in many ways it is foreign ground. Berry has constructed this team to fit this staff. The players acquired and how they are coached are taylored to this staff. This is the first time in memory where close to the entire team was built by this FO and staff. There are only a few guys remaining from past regimes.

We have good players and we have a staff that has been together. That helps. But until we have some more questions answered.

I have no clue how the Browns will do at this time.

The key to what we do with Brissett has little to do with the O and everything to do with the D. We can win with Brissett if we don't get in to shoot-outs. If we can hold teams to around 23 points or less, we will have a good chance to win. If we hold them to under 20, we will win. If we have to score 28 or more, it might be a tough go.

Obviously the team has to structure the O in a way that gives Brissett a good chance to execute, but I think we will.

I Don't get you guys thinking he is not a great tight end, it's annoying to read, I think anyone must be blind to not see it. It's in every catch he makes.
Njoku is a top 7 TE in the entire NFL, and if the Browns, knew how to use him, more often than way too sparingly.

I can't wait for the Browns to win enough and make the playoffs again because they are doing the right and correct things, unfortunately I believe those things include keeping a team together and building a veteran group that stays together and includes top offensive scorers.

I don't know a thing about Brissett other than what others have said.

He must be decent just from his numbers. Obviously, he is not a starter. He was considered to be one at one point.

But he must be good enough to hold a job. If he can be good enough to not turn the ball over and really suck. We should still win some games with him.

That is the luxury of a good OL and a great run game. Just make the play that is there. If not throw it away. Punt. Let the defense work.

I think the defense will be good. I am begining to think Clowney has a deal in place but will not execute the deal till he can avoid mandatory mini camps.

Clowney takes care of his body. He stays in shape. He will be ready. I believe we will sign a tackle or, at least I am hopeful. But Clowney or a Robert Quinn are still key.

This is a strange year.

Oh contraire tab. Baker is most certainly still a Brown.

Some often overlook that a key element to holding teams to 23 or less, as you put it, is having an offense that can consistently stay on the field. No matter how good your defense is, it cannot keep your offense from laying an egg and giving the game away because the defense doesn't take the field when you are on offense. Just last year the Browns lost that one game where Greedy Williaims iirc. intercepted the pass to give the Browns the ball back (raiders), with the lead and the opponent having no time outs and less than 3 minutes to play.

Like you, I don't know a ton about Brissett. I did a little research.

Jacoby has some strengths. He has good size. I think he is 6'4" and between 220--230 lbs. He has a strong arm. He makes some very good plays. Apparently, he is pretty good at reading coverages. He also makes some great plays.

On the negative side, his completion percentage is pretty bad. His yards per attempt are not very good. He is said to make some head-scratching plays. He can make great throws and then confounding ones. While he can read coverages adequately, it takes him too long to do so.

I looked at several sites and even checked out his scouting report when he came out of college. I got a lot of good stuff from a Colts' writer who was doing a scouting report of Miami when they were getting to play one another and Brissett was going to be the starting qb. My biggest takeaway is that the dude said he was a great backup, but you wouldn't want him as your starter.

Played for Belichick. He seems to be a bright guy.

I don't think he needs to do much really. We don't need him to be exceptional. "Do your job."

Make the plays that are there to be made. Don't turn it over. Hand it off. Use checkdowns. The offense is quarterback friendly.

It is about getting the ball out on time.

If he can play 500 ball or better. We should be fine.

DW is very good. He will be ready to go. IMO rust is not a factor.

It makes me laugh when I read projections by people. There is no way to project DW with this team in this offense against our schedule.

All these people trying to be gypsy fortune tellers.

I have patience. I will wait and see.

Exactly.

A team looking to upgrade their QB is not going to do so because the Ravens owner and front office don't want anyone taking Baker off of our hands? Easy for Baltimore to say that, they aren't interested in Baker. Any GM who passes on a chance to upgrade the most important position on the team over something like that doesn't deserve to keep his job.

How is the offense going to score points if Baker Mayfield is not the quarterback. ( The Browns excused him from mandatory minicamp.)
Neither DeShaun Watson, nor whoever emerges from Josh Dobbs or Jacoby Brissett, will have shown they can yet lead scoring drives.
So Where are the points going to come from?

Cade "Velveeta" York.

How/why would that be or is the kickers' nickname.
How is that a better nickname than CaPTain CADE! MAN!! would be for that kicker?
and that won't work because the Browns don't try kicks because their analytics ruin their chances by going for 4th downs, and let their team know they are going on 4th downs, so the team underachieves on 3rd downs,(because they don't treat it like the final down or punt anymore, because they know the analytics will go for it on the 4th down,) which alters the analytics in a negative way. So.
Who is going to score points?

How about "Queso" Cade?

https://www.wafb.com/2021/09/22/lsu-kicker-cade-york-signs-endorsement-deal-with-velveeta/

Nice analysis.

I have friends who are Colts fans. Their take is Brissett tried too hard to convince everyone he is the starter. Here in Cleveland, his role is the backup. He may relax more. They compare Brissett to a Walmart version of Lamar Jackson. As you said, he reads coverages and has a strong accurate arm when things are going right.

Jacoby Brissett is not a good QB. He's going to make Baker look like Justin Herbert.

I don't disagree. I agree Baker is a much more starting QB than Brissett. If I was paying the tab for a backup QB, I much prefer Brissett over Baker. That by no means Brissett is better. It simply means Brissett is a better value as a backup.

Doesn't matter. Jacoby is the starter for the next 2 years minimum.

We'll see. First, I question the 2 years you mention. Second, I wouldn't sleep on Josh Dobbs. It seems to be a foregone conclusion that Brissett will be the starter, and maybe he will if that is the attitude the coaching staff take.

In some ways. I think Dobbs might be the better option in a pinch hitter role. I don't think you lose much in the way of arm talent with Dobbs but pick up a lot in the way of his moving in the pocket and outside the pocket. Dobbs also had a high GPA in Aerospace engineering, so I think you are also gaining something between the ears, for what that is worth.

I hope we at least make this somewhat of a competition and not just one in name only. I think we have all seen these "competitions" where one guy gets all the first team reps and another always playing with guys to soon be cut.

peen, my wife and son are huge Steeler fans. My wife had season tickets when I met her back in the 80s. She lived just just outside of Pittsburgh. Anyway, they say that Dobbs does not have the arm strength to be a starting qb. However, he is very intelligent and that Ben always would seek him out and talk to him on the bench rather than one of the coaches. He's a great team guy and knows the game. He just doesn't have the arm talent to start.

Jacoby will probably be the starter unless the Watson case takes an unexpected turn. I think Baker is a better qb than Jacoby, but the Herbert comparison was dumb. Last year, Baker ranked 30th in QBR at 63.6, while Jacoby was 15th at 76.3. That's one year and not a tell-all stat, but the difference is not as great as that earlier comment suggests. I also think that folks keep forgetting that there are reasons for the Browns souring on Baker other than his play on the field. It's a big reason why they wanted to move on from him and also a reason other teams are afraid to trade for him.

The bottom line is that I don't think the Browns can win in the super AFC w/out Watson at QB. Neither Jacoby or Baker are the answer.

As I could agree with the first part of CFRS' post, Jacoby Brissett is not a good Quarterback.

If your team was going to play a team you had to beat, perhaps any AFC team from last year, including the Dolphins and Broncos' who had the worst AFC QB situations of teams in the mix. (not the jets, c'mon they're not a real team)
..If your team was going to play a team you had to beat, and you found out last year on the game week, that Jacoby Brissett was going to start for them instead of their regular quarterback,

You would have breathed a sigh of relief because Jacoby Brissett is not a good quarterback. (Let's see if that would have held up for the 12 teams in the playoff mix of last year.
The Raiders, Raider QB
The Chargers, (bobby hebert' Justin herbert' whichever, hate that dude)
(while they're ^ mentioned may as well throw in his clone from the AZ cards, blagoyavich? The Cards Qb last year, Kerry kollins, or rob blagoyavich, I'm having trouble remembering the name would have also been a harder out than Brissett.)
Back to the 12 afc teams:
The Broncos, ... Drew Lock? emm maybe, he sucks but Bridgewater? You'd breath a sigh of relief that Brissett were starting for the week.
The Chiefs? Chief Qb or Brissett? Brisset is not a good qb.

The Ravens? Lamar Jackson, or Brissett? (even Huntley played better)
The Browns? Baker Mayfield or Brissett? (you'd breath a sigh of relief if you were another team playing against the Browns and found out Brissett was starting. ( Case Keenum, or Brissett? Hmm?)

The Steelers, ?? or Brissett? Brissett would be an easier game than, well, well at the time I figured Haskins was a better Qb, RIP, and ?? the hall of famer? though old and damaged armed' was a better qb, but, their back up? Maybe Brissett was better than their backup? what's his name.

The Bengals, 2 Qb's probably better than Brissett, because their (? Anderson, Allen, adams? backup, I think did well)

The Titans, Tannehill was better than Brissett would have been.
the Colts?, well, Carson Wentz sucks! and often Wentz would outright LOSE games because of his bad play, but that wouldn't have made Brissett a "good" QB.
The Texans, ? I don't even know who they had. A push.
The Jaguars? ... ya know, That rookie whats' his name didn't play too too bad, just dumb and like a rookie, probably you'd breath a sigh of relief if you found out Brissett was the starter for a week though.

The Jets. Cm'on they aren't a real team with those loser QB's they've had as their last 3 Qbs.
The ... Dolphins, emm, kay, Tua stunk, but, well he might make a play among his mistakes that cost them games, but, ehh it's kind of a one is wider one is taller, comparing two different things but that doesn't make Brissett a good qb you'd hate more to face.

The Patriots, ... I don't think Coach whats' his name would allow for Birssett, more than a couple weeks before he went out and got some other QB that gives you half a chance.
The Bills, Josh Allen? You'd breath a sigh of relief if Brissett were starting for the week.

....
The Browns offense? They had trouble getting 17 points as a team last year.
and Baker is a much better quarterback than Brissett, and , they took Rashard Higgins' and his abilty to score out of the equation.

You mean that's how he ranked with a torn labrum. How noble of you.

j/c:

j/c:

There has been some discussion about our personnel packages moving forward w/Watson. I found this in a larger article. I agree w/the guy's takes on what and how much to use each of the personal packages.

Haven't we been teased with this like every offseason we've had both these guys?

We've all been screaming for them to do more of this for years, and they never do.

Freddie used them together some later in the year.

I found that we will probably run more 12 personnel mixed in w/some 11 while probably using 13 personnel more noteworthy. I would like to see us use the two-back thing on occasion.

Same coach? Same system? Same quarterback? Good defense? What are they thinking?

How would the bengals have fared/faired (Fared, I think) against the bills?

If the Bills, how would the Rams in the SB have fared against the Bills. Hmm. ( The Bills could have won the SB last year.) It's Chris Rocks' fault, and all/ know that because, in an around 2002 Chris Rock said, about cheating on a woman, that you wouldn't get any lovin until the bills would win the super bowl.
... the stillers beat the bills in game one last year.

The stillers had Cam heyword at Dt, so when push comes to shove, well the Browns have, (not great) this year at the interior DL, so when push comes to shove the Browns won't be alright, in the run defense.
..

Same Coach and same quarterback? That would not work, just ask the Browns and their win-loss record since 2006, you change them every 18 months just like the oil change in your car.

More 12? who is the 2 in that 12. ... ( it would be funny if it weren't so sad,) It feels like nobody, ( No Cleveland Browns offenseive player on THE PLANET) gets more snaps than Harrison Freakin Bryant, TE. And that that entire offense runs through how well he plays on the day? ... It would be funny if it weren't sad.