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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Can we get a list of billionaires that did not pay taxes?

At least some of them, yes. Also even Warren Buffet said they pay a lower percentage than his own secretary. Paying "their fair share" means paying the same tax rate as most Americans do. That would also include huge corporations.

No Federal Taxes for Dozens of Big, Profitable Companies

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/02/business/economy/zero-corporate-tax.html

US super-rich 'pay almost no income tax'

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-57383869

To a great extent it's a systemic problem.


The word "almost" is not the same as none. It is a misleading word meant to trick you into believing the emotional rhetoric they want you to believe.

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ProPublica said the richest 25 Americans pay less in tax - an average of 15.8% of adjusted gross income - than most mainstream US workers.

Not sure what their AGI is, but unless it is $0.00 then they paid some taxes. A lower rate than that others does not mean a lower amount overall.

One would think that if they were dodging taxes, especially in the realm of what they make that the government would be there taking care if it. Penalties for evasion end up as percentages of the amount owed, and that could be a very large aount.

Does your idea of "same tax rate" include people who end up without having to pay tax because their income is too low?

"Paying their fair share" really is a coded phrase for income redistribution. Billionaires pay more than their fair share (Elon is reportedly paying $11B for 2021). Add to that the tax base they create with their endeavors to get to be billionaires.

If we were "paying our fair share" we would divide the government budget up amongst the tax payers and we each get our "fair share". Bet no one wants that "fair share".

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Yes those are two different questions. And as I've already stated I don't think taxing the wealthy is a quick fix to inflation. It's more a talking point that panders to his base. At this point in time one side is promoting a minimum tax percentage of 15% on all major corporations declared income and 20% on income for households worth more than 100 million dollars. I know you're in business for yourself as I used to be. So I do know for a fact that you pay a much higher rate than that making far less money. Will that fix the entire problem? It's a good start at the very least. Like I said, there are proposals on the table to address the problem. You either promote using those tools to correct the issue or you don't.

As I said, you can point out what's wrong and how we got here and ignore proposals in place to address the problem now or you can reach for other possible solutions that would take a lot of time and may not fix it at all. Your choice.

We agree with how we got here. We agree on needing term limits. We agree that our political system is a mess. So we certainly agree more than we disagree. I just see obvious solutions that are on the table now to address it and support using those measures. You seem to think taking a longer term, more unsure method of addressing it and I have no ideas as to why.


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I understand how some people think those making so little they can barely afford to live should be paying the same tax rate as those making more. I understand how they don't consider making more Americans homeless and taking food out of childrens mouths an issue. I'm not one of those people.

You're doing your usual dodge here. I'll give you an example. I used to have my own business. It was a small business but I managed to make a decent living. My self employment tax rates was roughly 33%. You're dancing around trying to make the excuse that multi billion dollar corporations and billionaires should be paying a far lower tax rate than a small business person should. That Warren buffet should be paying a lower tax rate than his own secretary should. So you just stick with that.


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Raising taxes on corporations does nothing for inflation but stoke it.

Also, apparently lost on some is, "rich" people get taxed at capital gains amounts, not income amounts. The truly "rich" take income in other ways, and have asset increases that affect their "wealth".

And the problem with "one side is promoting a minimum of 15%" and "20% on incomes for households with more than 100 mil" is, it won't happen. don't believe the laws/codes - IF passed - will have any effect.

It sounds good. And it goes back to what I've said too many times to even attempt to repeat.


Now, we could also talk about all of the welfare programs that are abused, that cost hundreds of millions. But that doesn't fit in this thread.

We could talk ....nah, not going there.

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So the best course of action is not to try what's being proposed because you have decided that it won't work? Okay.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I understand how some people think those making so little they can barely afford to live should be paying the same tax rate as those making more. I understand how they don't consider making more Americans homeless and taking food out of childrens mouths an issue. I'm not one of those people.

You're doing your usual dodge here. I'll give you an example. I used to have my own business. It was a small business but I managed to make a decent living. My self employment tax rates was roughly 33%. You're dancing around trying to make the excuse that multi billion dollar corporations and billionaires should be paying a far lower tax rate than a small business person should. That Warren buffet should be paying a lower tax rate than his own secretary should. So you just stick with that.

Dude you are doing your usual dodge and deflect.

Your original statement was "When billionaires do not pay taxes, once again it's income lost."

You are saying that billionaires don't pay anything. ZERO ZIP NADA.

You are again wrong so you pivot and deflect. Your emotional rhetoric was designed to trick people into believe that those evil billionaires are sucking the economy dry and doing nothing else.

You are wrong.

Do you understand that a lower rate than others is still HUGE when you consider orders of magnitude?

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Is anyone really surprised that the economy has gone down the crapper since the last major election? One good thing is that we are providing more incentive for folks not to work and expect others to foot the bill for them. That's progress, folks.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So the best course of action is not to try what's being proposed because you have decided that it won't work? Okay.

Did I say that? No. Thanks for playing.

What I did state is "talking points" have never gotten us anywhere. Thanks.

You're like swish now, putting words in my mouth I never said. (I've noticed swish hasn't replied to me about me calling Biden a liberal commie", or whatever he said)

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Is anyone really surprised that the economy has gone down the crapper since the last major election? One good thing is that we are providing more incentive for folks not to work and expect others to foot the bill for them. That's progress, folks.

I could be wrong but I thought all the inflation started when Biden starting pushing for a mininum wage of $15.00 bucks an hour. That was approx. 14 or 15 months ago and it seems like inflation took off right after that. Wages went up and everybodys prices started going through the roof.


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Then can you explain what this means other than it won't work?

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don't believe the laws/codes - IF passed - will have any effect.

So not having any effect doesn't mean it won't work?


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Originally Posted by GMdawg
I could be wrong but I thought all the inflation started when Biden starting pushing for a mininum wage of $15.00 bucks an hour. That was approx. 14 or 15 months ago and it seems like inflation took off right after that. Wages went up and everybodys prices started going through the roof.

Only one problem. The federal minimum wage was never increased as Biden had proposed. Those who were against raising that wage to $15 dollars an hour claimed the market would dictate wages. Then employers couldn't find help and had to fight for workers which caused them to raise wages on their own. So the market did actually raise wages on its own just like those against raising the minimum wage said it should. Now somehow that's Biden's fault too. Just ask them.

And the BS Vers posted is just that. Federal unemployment benefits for Covid ended in September of 2021. There are no policies that have been put in place that are "providing more incentive for folks not to work and expect others to foot the bill for them." It's simply a lie.


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Keep on keeping on. The fact that many wealthy corporations and billionaires pay zero in taxes is true. It's also true many pay well below the average tax rate of the middle class. Both are true. You don't have to pick only one of them for both of them to be true.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Keep on keeping on. The fact that many wealthy corporations and billionaires pay zero in taxes is true. It's also true many pay well below the average tax rate of the middle class. Both are true. You don't have to pick only one of them for both of them to be true.

New tactic, lump in "corporations" with "people". It is true that corporations get tax breaks codified where individuals don't.

This does not mean that billionaires pay no taxes, again this was you assertion. Why is it you think you can make an assertion then defend something else?

When you say pay less than the average tax rate are you using manipulated numbers? Does this include capital gains and income tax such that the average of those two would be lower than just income taxes?

Make an assertion and defend it. Don't run in circles making people chase you when they question it while shouting "neener neener neener you can't catch me!"

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Some US billionaires had years where they paid no taxes: report

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...d-years-where-they-paid-no-taxes-report/

You have devoured all of your bone. It's gone now.


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taxation could lower inflation.

If you raised taxes on everybody who has some money until they have no more than people who don't have money, prices will always come down if nobody can afford to buy anything.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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Only no matter how much your side makes that claim, nobody has came close to proposing that.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Some US billionaires had years where they paid no taxes: report

https://thehill.com/policy/finance/...d-years-where-they-paid-no-taxes-report/

You have devoured all of your bone. It's gone now.

So they paid taxes in other years then? To be fair it sounds like they took advantage of laws that you can too. If you have an AGI of $1B and you can report $1B in loses you get to not pay taxes too.

"Some of the richest people in America had years in which they did not pay anything in federal income taxes, according to a report from ProPublica published Tuesday."

I wonder if there was other taxes involved since a single specific tax is mentioned. Did they pay sales tax? Capital gains? State income tax? Confirmation based google search really are not your strong suit. You read a headline and believed the message, again.

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I see the entire context of the thread has escaped you. It revolves around the problem of national inflation. Not a state or local issue. That involves only federal income tax. I've provided you proof that billionaires have avoided paying any federal taxes at all in at least some years and very little taxes in others. Both of which I've provided proof of.

While all that seems to have flown over your head I will give you credit for going hard in the paint. Even though you can't seem to score any points.


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Problem is, you haven't shown WHY!!!

They obviously didn't break any law, which again goes back to what I've said umpteen times.

but, you do you. Twist and turn, change the topic, and get the last word.

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Two thoughts. First, the top 5% of wage earners pay almost 60% of the federal income taxes. The bottom 50% pay 0. The rest is paid by the middle class .

Second, when you lefties add taxes on to businesses they just add them on to the price of their product. Businesses do not pay taxes, they collect them from their customers.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I see the entire context of the thread has escaped you. It revolves around the problem of national inflation. Not a state or local issue. That involves only federal income tax. I've provided you proof that billionaires have avoided paying any federal taxes at all in at least some years and very little taxes in others. Both of which I've provided proof of.

While all that seems to have flown over your head I will give you credit for going hard in the paint. Even though you can't seem to score any points.

First you made an assertion. I challenged that assertion. You asserted that there are billionaires that pay no tax. Your assertion was NOT billionaires pay no federal income tax. Do you see how those two things are not the same thing? All squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

Second you did not, in fact, prove that billionaires pay no tax. The article you posted leads with that as a headline. They gotcha. That's how the media works, if you are a headline reader you miss what is really going on. They do this to take advantage of the low information non-thinking reader. The article clearly discusses federal income tax. There is no mention of any other tax, excise, sales, estate or otherwise that may or may not have been paid. Again, just because it has for sides does not make it a square.

You start your insults because you realize you had a gotcha moment and got caught in it.

Let me make this simple for you, show me that your assertion that billionaires "pay no taxes" is indeed correct. Use actual authoritative sources, peer reviewed would be nice but we won't expect that from you this time.

Or just use your little "I give up, you are right" laughing guy to show you were, in fact, incorrect and using emotional rhetoric yet again.

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WTH are you talking about? We've both already agreed that it's baked into the tax code which is full of loopholes. What part of that did you miss? So how do you think we'll get politicians to agree to totally rewrite the tax code? A simple solution is a minimum tax percentage based on profit which with which to circumvent using all of those loopholes in order to not pay their fair share without having to rewrite the entire tax code. There's nothing there that is twisted.

You just get so frustrated when someone presents a reasonable debate you disagree with at some point you just go off the deep end. I tried to have a reasonable debate with you but the end result is you threw a tantrum. I knew that was the predictable outcome and it's why I generally don't waste my time trying.


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Just more BS from you. You know the context and you knew what was being stated. I provided you evidence backing it up and you're still droning on about it. I know in the game Wheel of Fortune you can buy a vowel. Sadly for you I don't think you can buy a clue.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Just more BS from you. You know the context and you knew what was being stated. I provided you evidence backing it up and you're still droning on about it. I know in the game Wheel of Fortune you can buy a vowel. Sadly for you I don't think you can buy a clue.

Obviously you did not provide evidence. You provided a headline that stated what you want it to state. That is not actual evidence.

Again with an insult. Your go to when you can't make produce the evidence you think you did.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
WTH are you talking about? We've both already agreed that it's baked into the tax code which is full of loopholes. What part of that did you miss? So how do you think we'll get politicians to agree to totally rewrite the tax code? A simple solution is a minimum tax percentage based on profit which with which to circumvent using all of those loopholes in order to not pay their fair share without having to rewrite the entire tax code. There's nothing there that is twisted.

You just get so frustrated when someone presents a reasonable debate you disagree with at some point you just go off the deep end. I tried to have a reasonable debate with you but the end result is you threw a tantrum. I knew that was the predictable outcome and it's why I generally don't waste my time trying.

Would that be like the Alternate Minimum Tax enacted in 2012?

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Originally Posted by GMdawg
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Is anyone really surprised that the economy has gone down the crapper since the last major election? One good thing is that we are providing more incentive for folks not to work and expect others to foot the bill for them. That's progress, folks.

I could be wrong but I thought all the inflation started when Biden starting pushing for a mininum wage of $15.00 bucks an hour. That was approx. 14 or 15 months ago and it seems like inflation took off right after that. Wages went up and everybodys prices started going through the roof.

14-15 months ago is when we started seeing impact from covid vaccines and restrictions were being lifted. This led to people getting out and spending. Spending came from 2 main sources.

1. The government had printed off nearly 5 trillion in a year.
2. Pent-up spending from people couldn't spend due to covid restrictions

15 months ago the flood gates open. This created a lot of demand on a already strained supply lines. When you have high demand and low supply, prices go up. Thats what were seeing. What I find odd is people keep paying the prices. I would think people would get to a point where they would say "No way, I'm not paying that much." I see all these businesses packed. People either don't care or they lack the will power to hold back. My guess is the latter given the instant gratification society we now have. On the other hand, there's the mind set of prices keep going up, I should buy it before it gets even more expensive.


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I think people just want to get out and live again.
No matter the cost.

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For the record.........I did not post "BS." I have been running a small business since last May. There are plenty of incentives in addition to unemployment that provides incentives for people NOT to work.

I am not asking anyone. to agree w/me on the merits of whether that is good or bad, but they exist and calling it BS doesn't change the reality of the situation.

Personally speaking and I'm not asking anyone to agree or disagree..........it is my belief that our society is in trouble when we provide incentives to not work. It is my opinion that when one strives to improve oneself---whether it be through education or hard work---he/she is not only taking empowerment of their own state of affairs, but also empowering our nation.

John Smith came to this land long, long ago...........>>He had a mantra: “He that will not worke, shall not eate.” That is how our country was built to be the great country it has become. We work hard. Immigrants flocked to this country for better opportunities, whether they be economic, political, or to escape religious persecution. I'm proud to be an American. I'm proud that my family came from nothing and succeeded due to the opportunities that this great country has provided us. I am proud to see how anyone who has the "want to" can succeed in this country if they are determined enough to overcome the obstacles in their path. No, things are not always fair. Some face stiffer challenges than others. But, there is no Caste system in this country. We go out of our way to help those that are facing dire circumstances. But, while one can lead a horse to water, one can't force the horse to drink. Corny, but true.

One more thing...........and I can write a book on this...........but, I am actually on the side of the poor and those who face prejudice. I dedicated a huge part of my life trying to empower them. I completely despise the "Woke" crowd who brainwashes those people that they "need" handouts and are owed something. Psychologically, you are telling them they are not good enough to earn things on their own. That they are dependent upon the good will of others. That is a terrible thing to say to a youngster. My message has always been that you might have a tougher road than others, but that just means you have to fight harder, be better, be more resilient, more determined.........and if you are........you can find success. I told them I believe in them w/all my heart. That they are not inferior. They are not less intelligent. That they do not need to rely on others to put bread on the table. Instead, I encourage them to outwork others and grasp all that they can from life and to take advantage of the laws that and programs that can assist them. No shame in that. But, by God................NEVER EVER, rely on the pity and handouts of others. Take empowerment of your own life! And all y'all enablers can kiss my behind if you think otherwise.

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1. Bezos' comment was about how Biden somehow thinks taxing the rich will address inflation. It won't. Anybody with 2 working brain cells know that to be true. That's not to say the rich shouldn't be taxed. It's just saying Biden is an idiot. Also... yeah, he probably doesn't want to be taxed more. Both can be true.

2. Biden has been in politics for like 800 years. He was there for all of the trickle down economics, deregulation, etc. He's a democrat... so yeah, he's got to make a show of it. But before that he's a politician. He (and we) know where his bread is buttered. The corps and ultra wealthy drive big money through those special interest groups that enrich all of our politicians, so Biden can spare me this whole white knight shtick. It rings as hollow as his head.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Only no matter how much your side makes that claim, nobody has came close to proposing that.

Nobody proposes that. They just set out to do it.

The problem is this....The talk is to swallow the problem from the top down, but the actions taken swallow things from the bottom up.

When you drain a sink, it drains from the bottom to the top. That stuff floating on the top of the water is the last to go down.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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Originally Posted by Squires
14-15 months ago is when we started seeing impact from covid vaccines and restrictions were being lifted. This led to people getting out and spending. Spending came from 2 main sources.

1. The government had printed off nearly 5 trillion in a year.
2. Pent-up spending from people couldn't spend due to covid restrictions

15 months ago the flood gates open. This created a lot of demand on a already strained supply lines. When you have high demand and low supply, prices go up. Thats what were seeing. What I find odd is people keep paying the prices. I would think people would get to a point where they would say "No way, I'm not paying that much." I see all these businesses packed. People either don't care or they lack the will power to hold back. My guess is the latter given the instant gratification society we now have. On the other hand, there's the mind set of prices keep going up, I should buy it before it gets even more expensive.

Great post. One additional factor also causing inflation is the War in Ukraine.

Oober - I didn't see or here anything about Biden claiming that taxing the rich will cure inflation. Anyone with half a brain can see that's clearly not a solution for inflation - to me that sounds like a manipulation of what Biden might have said but I'll happily read any quotes or speeches or links that show what Biden actually said as opposed to what Faux News might have tried to insinuate he said.

EDIT: Like many things, it only takes a moment to look at what's happening GLOBALLY to figure out whether (as some claim) all this inflation is because of Biden or if other factors are at play. Inflation is impacting EVERYONE. In the UK - currently 7%.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-12196322

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Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Squires
14-15 months ago is when we started seeing impact from covid vaccines and restrictions were being lifted. This led to people getting out and spending. Spending came from 2 main sources.

1. The government had printed off nearly 5 trillion in a year.
2. Pent-up spending from people couldn't spend due to covid restrictions

15 months ago the flood gates open. This created a lot of demand on a already strained supply lines. When you have high demand and low supply, prices go up. Thats what were seeing. What I find odd is people keep paying the prices. I would think people would get to a point where they would say "No way, I'm not paying that much." I see all these businesses packed. People either don't care or they lack the will power to hold back. My guess is the latter given the instant gratification society we now have. On the other hand, there's the mind set of prices keep going up, I should buy it before it gets even more expensive.

Great post. One additional factor also causing inflation is the War in Ukraine.

Oober - I didn't see or here anything about Biden claiming that taxing the rich will cure inflation. Anyone with half a brain can see that's clearly not a solution for inflation - to me that sounds like a manipulation of what Biden might have said but I'll happily read any quotes or speeches or links that show what Biden actually said as opposed to what Faux News might have tried to insinuate he said.

EDIT: Like many things, it only takes a moment to look at what's happening GLOBALLY to figure out whether (as some claim) all this inflation is because of Biden or if other factors are at play. Inflation is impacting EVERYONE. In the UK - currently 7%.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-12196322

Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Amazon CEO and Washington Post owner Jeff Bezos caused quite a stir on Twitter Friday when he publicly mocked President Joe Biden for his latest solution for inflation.

Biden: "You want to bring down inflation? Let’s make sure the wealthiest corporations pay their fair share."

Bezos cracked Biden’s tweet, beginning with a dig against the administration’s new propaganda department, "The newly created Disinformation Board should review this tweet, or maybe they need to form a new Non Sequitur Board instead.

"Raising corp taxes is fine to discuss. Taming inflation is critical to discuss. Mushing them together is just misdirection," he added, completely trouncing the president’s idea.

Yes, there are reasons for inflation. No, it's not only here. It's not all about "is this inflation because of Biden?" as much as it is expecting leaders to lead!

So far these are his two plans to battle inflation (and yes, he referred to the first one as a plan)...

1. "Folks, prices are higher."

2. "Make the corporations pay their fair share."

The sad part is intelligent people using the second as a defendable position and "attacking" the other side with it. "Inflation is your fault, you voted for republicans". Not that this should be surprising since it is an administration 100% hell-bent on creating division on every issue... hell, they just paid a six-month study group to come up with the term "ultra-maga"!


HERE WE GO BROWNIES! HERE WE GO!!
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Well those are two of the dumbest things I have seen Biden say. No reason to doubt that what you said is true but they are so dumb I guess I need to dig a little myself.


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Then tell us what those "incentives not to work" are. You are self employed. So explain to us what is in place to give hourly workers these incentives not to work you speak of. Bring receipts. You made some sweeping claim and then posted a bunch of gibberish that was totally unrelated to your sweeping accusation.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Only no matter how much your side makes that claim, nobody has came close to proposing that.

Nobody proposes that. They just set out to do it.

The problem is this....The talk is to swallow the problem from the top down, but the actions taken swallow things from the bottom up.

When you drain a sink, it drains from the bottom to the top. That stuff floating on the top of the water is the last to go down.

So what does any of that have to do with billionaires and corporations paying at least a minimum tax rate that is even below what people making 200k a year do? People make that sound like it's some attack on them or trying to redistribute wealth by simply demanding they pay a fair tax rate. How can anyone twist that so badly?


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Everybody that has read this thread understood what was posted and understand the very rich and many major corporations aren't paying their fair share but you. Everyone understood the topic revolved around the federal income tax but you. In case the math escapes you here, that makes this a you problem.

Some agree and some disagree, but at least they comprehended what was posted.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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bro i felt like i had to bow out of my own thread because we got posters still making excuses for the same corporations that do everything imaginable to screw them and the country over.

we're seeing the greed play out in real time, and people still out here defending these dudes. imagine 1% of the population owning over 50% of the wealth, forcing the 99% to compete over less than 50% of the remaining wealth, and defending that.

like damn bro i love money like everybody else, but people literally sell their souls and vote against their own well being just for the hope of some wealthy dude sharing his leftovers with them.

we literally got dudes STILL arguing for less regulations and less taxes. again, i'm struggling to have conversations with people who routinely vote to screw other people over. its like so many people only value their lives based on how better they have it over someone else. that's the only thing that matters; materialism and resource hoarding.

it would be like me getting a new BMW, and then getting mad if OCD gets a new BMW as well, as if i'm the only one allowed to level up. like damn people just cant be happy if other people are also doing well in life. and our economic policies the last 40 years really reflects the disgusting levels of greed and selfishness that powers American culture.


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Everybody that has read this thread understood what was posted and understand the very rich and many major corporations aren't paying their fair share but you. Everyone understood the topic revolved around the federal income tax but you. In case the math escapes you here, that makes this a you problem.

Some agree and some disagree, but at least they comprehended what was posted.

I wasn't the one that made an absurd assertion that I can't back up, in this thread.

Nice of you to speak for everyone though, I am sure the rest of us can now not post and let you do it all, since you, ya know, speak for everyone.

Again. Can you provide actual proof that "billionaires paid no tax" like you asserted or is this another hyperbolic assertion from you?

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OCD is an SUV/Truck guy, not a sports car or BMW guy. Just saying, in case you are a secret 1%er fixin' to hand out cars. wink


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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Then tell us what those "incentives not to work" are. You are self employed. So explain to us what is in place to give hourly workers these incentives not to work you speak of. Bring receipts. You made some sweeping claim and then posted a bunch of gibberish that was totally unrelated to your sweeping accusation.

We are different in that you are here to argue and I am here to discuss. That does not give you the right to attack me w/claims that I am posting gibberish. I have my beliefs in what is best for the individual and the nation. You have a different set of beliefs. That's fine and I won't attack you and move the goal posts. Trying to pretend that there aren't generations of families who have been living off the many forms of government assistance and the kind acts of others such as churches is unfair.

I am not asking you--or anyone--to agree w/my belief that we would all be better off if we empowered the individual instead of telling them that are dependent upon others in order to have a roof over their head. And your attacks will do nothing to change my mind about that.

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