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bonefish #1945251 05/17/22 08:35 PM
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How can anyone just forcefeed us fans the belief that Deshaun Watson, on the Browns has to be good.

I don't even know much about what DeShaun Watson was, but, The Browns played against him, 2.5 years ago, and the Browns won, Watson threw for a bunch of yards but lost that particular game iirc.

Now, it's always a new unknown thing when a QB joins a new team, or a player joins a new team, and, If Watson were still with the Texans, and had no accusers, and had played last year, and were playing again this year, and,
(See that's his best environment to thrive because it's his natural state of familiarity, with his same cohesive group of receivers and teammates and such, Then Deshaun Watson, (that is best case), wouldn't be, necessarily primed to win the AFC or the Super Bowl.

Another thing, Deshaun Watson has never had to win an AFC North Division, nor play the 6 game divisional opponents of his schedule with them being the AFC North.
We all know the AFC North is a different animal, each div. is a different animal, and the AFC North has running games, Tight ends, and defenses that make quarterbacks lose contain on the football.

Deshaun Watson, coming to Cleveland, can only be sold as a positive, must be force fed to fans as a positive, that it will be the very best Deshaun Watson version we've ever seen, it should be incredible.

This is not the first time the Browns brought in a veteran QB, (bottom line,) It's a New ,
all negative. So there won't be continuity.

Last edited by THROW LONG; 05/17/22 08:39 PM.

Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
bonefish #1945361 05/18/22 03:21 PM
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Ok...I apologize for miss communicating. Thank you for your explanation just one thing regardless of who fall into the category of "Folks" as much as you HATE being called a liar I find it as crossing the line for you to make that accusation.

I understand that the "STATS" out there tell me something that I can SEE MYSELF and don't need stats provided. You can't have it one way only. I have brought up the stat that as a rookie he had an incredible "STAT" of 20 TDs and -0- INT from the red zone. That would tell me he is accurate from that stat. Its my eyes that show me when Baker is in his comfort zone he hits the WR/TE/RB in the hands in stride. Why did he BECOME inconsistent There are several things. But I do put that in the hands of the HC who coming in was said to be straightening out Baker so in other words we just didn't go with who Baker was we tried to make him fit in that Square hole. Ski I thought did a terrible job in coaching Baker. I saw Baker trying his best to become the QB that Ski wanted. Ski wanted a tall QB who would be comfortable with staying in the pocket. Baker had an incredible "STAT" of passing with play action until 2021 with the injuries he was pretty bad but why did we have Baker going to his left with play action faking the run right when it was the problem area with the injury - going left. I did a thread on that and it basically was telling me Ski did not want Baker as his QB of choice. Any ways he is done as a Brown. I don't like the job Ski did. Now we got a QB in his image - already our talent is better as Cooper is a stud elite WR. DPJ has developed nicely. And this kid we got in the draft is a younger Landry and actually faster. All last year I post my disappointment with Hooper TE. He was not a stud and went down as soon as he was touched.

So he is gone I just hope we don't lose DW for more than 4 games or else its another season shot down the drain. And again 3 years this was a solid draft to get talent later but we have to survive 3 years without a 1st round injection of youthful talent.


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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CHRIST HAS RISEN!

GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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bonefish #1945633 05/19/22 01:05 PM
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The offense should be better from at least this point of view
Stefanski doesnt have to call a perfect play every time
That was the thing with Baker , KS felt he had to call the perfect play with him
Bur with DeShawn even if the defense makes the play
Go off schedule , Watson can improvise and make a negative
Into positive.

eotab #1945726 05/19/22 10:32 PM
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I agree with you eotab. Screw the stats, screw whatever the hell else Vers or anybody throws out there, Baker is accurate. We've all seen him hit the barrel from sixty yards away, and we saw some of it in very good games. I will go to my grave saying OBJ, staff changes, and pure dumbassery from biased commentators during his entire time here hurt him more than anything he ever did wrong or poorly. In 2020, he was a media darling, and people across the country jumped on the browns bandwagon... you don't go from that to being considered a failure during a year with a bad injury without outside help. OBJ and his daddy backstabbed Baker and turned a lot of fans against him. I hope OBJ fades away into nothingness, he would deserve it. And Baker deserves another shot to start somewhere in THE NFL, not some BS league like some posters are hoping. He's no Johnny Football.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 05/19/22 10:34 PM.

Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
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The Alternative Universe is still a real thing.

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I think you need to qualify your statements in more detail or do a deeper dive.

Yes we've seen Baker's arm talent and what he can do. But does he do it every throw and every play? Defo not. So when and why does his accuracy break down? Personally I think his accuracy was shot to hell last year largely due to injury - the 57% he threw for weeks 3-18 were career lows. But even going back to the back half of 2020 when Baker was graded out by PFF as a top 5 QB - his accuracy was not much above 64-65%. . . I'd have to go back and watch some games from that time frame to comment, but as much as I think Baker is going to be a good QB for someone else, claiming his strength is his accuracy doesn't withstand a lot of scrutiny. jmo.


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I go by my eyes...stats I go by when I don't have the opportunity to see.

I know Baker is accurate to me its not debatable he is what he is. I don't hold the same contempt towards OBJ after all from day one he told the Browns to trade him that clearly he didn't want in. He didn't practice he showed up for the games and he played hard.
But he didn't understand the offense and the flow. He did his own thing at times.

Anyways I'm a Browns fan through and through so they can do no wrong my fear is not losing Baker...Players come and go. Its the draft picks combined with the possibility that we will not have DW for a considerable time. If Big Ben got 6 games for one complaint oh well you can see my fear and that would not be good for my beloved Browns. I think the thought process was not all there and I don't believe Berry would have made that big of a trade and we didn't until Baker insisted on being traded...but this was handled incorrectly only because of the jeopardy involved. Interviewing DW cannot help in their decision. The kid is not a punk, he has a possible disease that he just has no control over. I'm afraid it will rear its ugly head again.


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GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
bonefish #1945762 05/20/22 09:57 AM
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How come Baker's porous TD to INT ratio from 2021 is never brought up yet all we hear
About is his completion % Through the 1st 2 games?

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The Alternative Universe is still a real thing.

Yes it is. You post it on the regular.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
How come Baker's porous TD to INT ratio from 2021 is never brought up yet all we hear
About is his completion % Through the 1st 2 games?

rofl

It's this mysterious thing it seems you must have never heard of. Injuries that greatly impacted his throwing. BTW- try including 2020 as well. 28 td's to 8 int's.

I wonder what drastic thing happened after 2020 and his first two games in 2021 that could have made such a huge impact? The mystery continues.....


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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PitDAWG #1945797 05/20/22 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
How come Baker's porous TD to INT ratio from 2021 is never brought up yet all we hear
About is his completion % Through the 1st 2 games?

rofl

It's this mysterious thing it seems you must have never heard of. Injuries that greatly impacted his throwing. BTW- try including 2020 as well. 28 td's to 8 int's.

I wonder what drastic thing happened after 2020 and his first two games in 2021 that could have made such a huge impact? The mystery continues.....
But weren't most of Baker's INTS in 2021 a result of him
Making really bad decisions downfield ??
I find very little corralation between the Injuries and INTS
And how many of Mayfield's INT were because him and target
Weren't on the same page ......very few in 2021
How come the rest of the NFL QB starved teams don't share
Your opinon on this matter
It seems like their 2 points of view on Baker
The Baker fan club on this board and the rest of the NFL.

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"How come the rest of the NFL QB starved teams"

How many are there - 2???

I watched all 13 of his interceptions - amazing what you can find on youtube.

Of those 13, I would say 3 were not his fault. 10 were bad picks. I would say half of those were poor decisions and the rest were the result of inaccuracy which most certainly could be attributed to his injury (perhaps).

Last edited by Hammer; 05/20/22 03:10 PM.
Hammer #1945805 05/20/22 03:18 PM
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I could care less at this point. I do remember the Kurt Warner breakdown he did on half a game of Baker's. There was a throw the flat to a RB, I don't recall which, to all the world it looked like an inaccurate pass by Baker and a pick resulted. Warner broke it down and said the RB ran the route wrong, too rounded I think and not flat..... He said it was unequivocal. Baker threw to where the receiver should have been, the receiver ran a bad route and it was a pick that looked like it was Baker's fault.

That might have been the only instance all year. Idk. But I think there was at least one other in the same game where Kurt also felt it was highly likely the WR ran the wrong route and an I completion resulted on what looked like an easy big gain.


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Hammer #1945808 05/20/22 03:50 PM
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How many are there - 2???

That's rather deceiving. Not saying you are doing it intentionally, but there were plenty of teams who passed on him. Houston didn't take him, yet Goff was part of the Stafford trade and Lock was part of the Wilson trade. Indy chose Old Man Ryan over Baker. I knew Mayfield had no shot w/Indy. They were going to swap one immature qb for another. New Orleans decided to give Winston a contract instead of trading for Baker. Atlanta went w/Mariotta. Carolina drafted Corrale or whatever his name is. The Giants are not sitting pretty at QB. Seattle hasn't made a move. Some thought Detroit would want a qb.

You know.......there are a lot of folks not willing to admit they were wrong on this board. I seriously don't understand that. It's a game. Not life and death. Admitting you were wrong about a player is not some sign of weakness. Refusing to admit is. The worst part is how some are still determined to blame others for Baker's problems. Absurd.

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Who would you rather have... Baker or Carson Wentz?

IMO, the answer is Baker and it's not close... yet Wentz was involved in a trade that had picks sent back to his former team. IMO, the excuse of "well it's Washington and they're idiots" is a cop-out.

I think the teams that would pick up Baker are convinced that the Browns are just going to release him and they're fine playing a game of chicken.

When you have Wentz getting traded (and still starting), Trubisky being given another starter position, Sam Darnold assuming Baker doesn't go there, Davis Mills, Daniel Jones, Drew Locke.... I think you see where I'm going here.


There is no level of sucking we haven't seen; in fact, I'm pretty sure we hold the patents on a few levels of sucking NOBODY had seen until the past few years.

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Who would you rather have... Baker or Carson Wentz?

Neither. Wentz is more talented and played better than Baker this past year, but both are not good locker room guys and are immature. They both fold under pressure. I would pass on both.




Quote
I think the teams that would pick up Baker are convinced that the Browns are just going to release him and they're fine playing a game of chicken.

When you have Wentz getting traded (and still starting), Trubisky being given another starter position, Sam Darnold assuming Baker doesn't go there, Davis Mills, Daniel Jones, Drew Locke.... I think you see where I'm going here.

I really don't see where you are going. Why would teams wait for Baker to be released when they would have to compete w/other teams for his services? Why not just trade for him? I'll tell you why..........Baker's ability on the football field doesn't outweigh the problems he causes due to his personality and character. Aaron Rodgers is a drama queen, but teams would trade for him if Green Bay wanted to trade him. No one had more baggage than Watson and the Texans were in a worse spot than the Browns in trying to manufacture a trade, yet multiple teams still wanted to see if they could swing a trade for him.

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My response assumed the current state of the NFL - how many QB starved teams currently are there?

1. Atlanta signed Mariota and drafted Ridder.
2. New Orleans chose Winston.
3. Indy traded for Ryan.
4. Washington traded for Wentz.
5. Houston likes Mills.
6. Lions paying the horrible Goff a boatload.
7. Carolina paying the horrible Darnold about same as Mayfield and drafted Corral - possibility.
8. New York Giants did not pick up the option on Jones - possibility.
9. Seattle traded for Lock and resigned Geno Smith (ugh) - possibility.

Hammer #1945834 05/20/22 04:50 PM
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I hear you. I tried to mention that I didn't think you were doing it intentionally. Nothing personal and I apologize if I came across that way. I just wanted the facts to be clear about there were other opportunities AFTER Baker asked to be traded.

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People who wish not to see won't. The rest will.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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PitDAWG #1945846 05/20/22 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by PitDAWG
People who wish not to see won't. The rest will.

Damn NFL GMs and coaches. Baker is really good and others are to blame for his issues and they just refuse to see it. What a bunch of haters.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
People who wish not to see won't. The rest will.

Damn NFL GMs and coaches. Baker is really good and others are to blame for his issues and they just refuse to see it. What a bunch of haters.

You talk about alternate realities -

There are no teams desperate for an injured QB with a $19M price tag who is most likely going to be cut. . . . that's ignoring the possibility that reports that NFL teams are pissed at Haslam and want to make the team suffer a little for setting a new precedent in signing a fully guaranteed $1/4 Billion contract.

You talk about Baker's immaturity and fragile ego - and I don't think there is a poster that doesn't agree. He needs to stfu and just concentrate on recovery and being a better QB. . . all on board. But this narrative that no-one wants Baker because no one has signed him or traded for him yet is an opinion - not shared by everyone and not shared by some/many of the NFL reporters and observers. As has been pointed out above - there MIGHT be 2 teams in the running. I didn't realize how much dead money Seattle has on their books this year ... I'd say they are out. Panthers drafted a potential viable future QB. There is no team desperate for a QB. And when there is Jimmy G is going to be in the mix too - he's going to appeal to some as much as Baker. Less arm talent but more professional and less drama. It's a unique situation.


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mgh888 #1945852 05/20/22 06:19 PM
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You can get angry, but I clearly pointed out the list of teams that needed a qb when Baker asked for the trade. Denying that fact doesn't change it. And please, most of you were saying how great Baker was after last year. Top 5. Top 3. I wouldn't want any other qb in the league over Baker. Baker is better than anyone since Joe Montana. You were wrong and can't admit it. Hell, during the season, I read where you said something about folks are really comparing Carr to Baker now and you were incredulous at the idea. Meanwhile, Carr got paid and Baker is in limbo. I can let this go, but when folks continue to blame Stefanski, OBJ, etc and act like Baker is this accurate qb even in the face that the facts disprove that notion, I'm going to speak up and you sir, cannot change that.

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I don't remember anyone saying anything of the sort. "ost of you were saying how great Baker was after last year. Top 5. Top 3. I wouldn't want any other qb in the league over Baker. Baker is better than anyone since Joe Montana"

I do recall hearing Baker was hurt for most of the year. Which he was.

So, legit question: Let's say DW gets hurt (if he even plays this year), will you give him the benefit of the doubt, like you did Landry and OBJ? Or will you hold DW to the same standard you held Mayfield?

And further, since Mayfield won't be playing for the Browns, can you stop talking about him? Or is your ego too fragile to let it go?

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I was talking about after the playoff season. Those things were said.

Landry and OBJ? I claimed injuries were responsible for their play? I don't remember that. I may have mentioned it about Landry, but I mostly blame Baker's ineptness for OBJ's problems. I don't know if I ever said Landry didn't play well. I can't remember that. I don't think he played poorly.

I have also said that Baker's injury was an issue. I just think that he--and his fans--are overstating it. He was cleared to play by the medical staff and the coaches. I don't think they would have done so if Baker's injury was the main reason for his poor play. It was a factor, no doubt. But, his issues ran far deeper than that.

Regarding Watson, I will judge him honestly. If he plays bad, I will say so. If he plays well, I will say so. I already know what you are going to say, though. LOL

I can stop talking about Baker if others stop trotting BS out there like the coach was bad or that OBJ screwed him over or that the OL was bad and the receivers sucked and that he is really accurate.

My fragile ego? That seems like a juvenile attempt at an insult.

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You will make EVERY excuse in the book for DW, IF he even plays.

I'm not some BM fan dude. I'm a realist. You are on record saying what a huge upgrade DW is, IF he plays. Money. Mouth. We'll see how it pans out.

Oh, and further, I am a BROWNS fan, since birth - or, well, since I can remember watching them on t.v. at a very young age.

You got your wish: Baker's gone. yet, you can't quit harping on him.

Let's see what DW has. IF he plays. Fair? Injured or not, IF he's playing, I expect him to be what you tell us he'll be.

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You sound angry. Why are you so mad at me for thinking Watson is an upgrade over Baker? What about the Browns? Did they stick their necks out to acquire Watson and all his baggage in order to make a lateral move from Baker or do they think he is a substantial upgrade? Were other teams willing to trade for Watson? Are other teams jumping over themselves to trade for Baker?

Think man.

Some of you can make this personal and attack me, but that does not change what has transpired.

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1. I'm not angry.
2. I'm not saying DW isn't an upgrade, although...
3. Will you hold him to the same standards you held BM?

That's pretty much the gist of it. and on #3, I doubt you will.

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Of course I will. However, I already know he is a better QB than Baker. I've watched both play. He is more accurate. He is more mobile. He can throw from the pocket much, much better. He is a better runner. They both have good arms and I'm not sure which is better? He's a better leader. He reads defenses pre-snap better. He reads coverages post-snap better. I mean.......I just think he is way better and I have already seen that. And again, the Browns and the rest of the NFL see it the same way.

Also, while you are throwing shade for the second time about me not being honest............>I have admitted I was wrong time and time again on this board. I'm sure others will verify that. One more time................it's a freaking game that I watch for entertainment purposes. Being wrong is not that big of a deal. Admit it and move on. That doesn't change the world. It's just manning-up.

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And I am not angry either. And trying to use that sounds like you are desperate and don't want to stick to the facts. What I wrote is accurate. What you wrote about the teams needing a QB was before Baker was available and before Baker has recovered from his injury. Here's a clue - Jimmy G is good enough to start for a team in the NFL too and he probably will. Why is he not on a different team yet - because he is recovering from injury.

If you want to be insulting and talk down and be derogatory - I'm happy to reciprocate. Let me know. Again - not angry, but not going to put up with your schtick.

And just a side note about DW. You're the one started multiple threads about how great he is - you even posted an article about how his deep stats and analytics indicated he was the best QB in the NFL for whatever year it was that he was playing at that level. . . . funny thing is now I see multiple posts saying you don't even know if he's a top 5 QB. Maybe a top 7. So I am a bit confused by your new stance on how great DW is going to be. for 3 firsts and the largest contract in NFL history I am hoping and praying he is top 3 or 4 at worst.

As for Baker and what was said after his good year in 2020 - I know of only one poster who stated they wouldn't take any other QB in the NFL. I don't know anyone else who claimed Baker was top 3 or top 5. I do know PFF graded Baker out as the top 5 QB for the last 9 games of 2020. . . . again, facts. Feel free to find quotes to the contrary. A lot of people were high on Baker at the end of that year - NFL pundits and Browns fans alike - the thread that got revived showed that. I think it's hyperbole to suggest people were claiming he was a top 3 or top 5 QB. You'd need to find quotes to back that up.


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You are not being honest and thus, I am going to end my conversation w/you. I am not interested in trading insults and dealing w/untruths.

For everyone else, please check the dates of when other QBs were traded for or signed. You can use my post in response to Hammer as a guide to show what I was talking about. I don't lie and I'm not going to go down this road again.

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So - you can't find any quotes from posters saying Baker was a top 5 QB.

So - you don't want to admit that teams just simply don't trade for injured QBs and that there is no trade partner.

So - you don't want to admit that there aren't teams in competition for Baker?

Got it. And you have the gall to talk about truthful? Yeah, I should have known better.


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So DW, who hasn't played in well over a year, is "much better" at everything than injured Baker. Got it.

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No, Watson is much better than a healthy Baker.

mgh888 #1945868 05/20/22 09:09 PM
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....that's ignoring the possibility that reports that NFL teams are pissed at Haslam and want to make the team suffer a little for setting a new precedent in signing a fully guaranteed $1/4 Billion contract.

This is probably the worst of the reasons given for why there's been no trade interest for BM. There isn't a team in the league that is going to pass on getting a qb they think would improve the team because of FO sissy fights.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The Alternative Universe is still a real thing.

Attacking a difference of opinion is not the way to respectful dialogue, Grasshopper. PRACTICE WHAT YOU PREACH, VERS.

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 05/20/22 09:53 PM.

Your feelings and opinions do not add up to facts.
mgh888 #1945874 05/20/22 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mgh888
I think you need to qualify your statements in more detail or do a deeper dive.

Yes we've seen Baker's arm talent and what he can do. But does he do it every throw and every play? Defo not. So when and why does his accuracy break down? Personally I think his accuracy was shot to hell last year largely due to injury - the 57% he threw for weeks 3-18 were career lows. But even going back to the back half of 2020 when Baker was graded out by PFF as a top 5 QB - his accuracy was not much above 64-65%. . . I'd have to go back and watch some games from that time frame to comment, but as much as I think Baker is going to be a good QB for someone else, claiming his strength is his accuracy doesn't withstand a lot of scrutiny. jmo.

I think there are different types of fans, who all have their own perspectives and we should do more to respect that in here. Nobody is spreading lies, by saying they think of feel Baker is a top QB, those are opinions, and each fans RIGHT. Now if I tell you he is in the hall of fame as if it were fact, you'd have something to pounce on to defend your position... but why should we even have to defend our 'opinions' as long as they meet the boards rules?

Last edited by OldColdDawg; 05/20/22 09:57 PM.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
No, Watson is much better than a healthy Baker.

This is pure speculation on your part, Vers. He hasn't played football over a year and going through some stressful events in life; we assume he will play lights out like he did in 2020, but he hasn't proven that on the field. And placed in identical situations, I personally think Baker could give him a run for his money. Hell, we may get to see exactly that this year, who knows? You can say he was better than Bake in years they both played based on stats, but they are far from the end all be all predictor of who will be better in any new year. I can remember when some of these starting QBs were not well thought of, like Tannehill. Situations and players games all change year to year. It's reasonable to assume what you are saying, but damn sure not fact, like you push it.

Maybe back off just a little on the aggressive defense of your stance, and pepper just a bit of humility and respect in your replies. Kumbaya, bro.


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
No, Watson is much better than a healthy Baker.
It's not that big of a gap! (Very neck and neck)

And Watson isn't going to play his best because of the team transfer, nobody ever does.
It's too sad to be funny.

What Offense? We're going to find out.
UH!!!
AS IF the Browns aren't doing exactly as they've always done since, well for a couple of decades. ... What offense? "OFFense", "that too."

Last edited by THROW LONG; 05/20/22 10:32 PM. Reason: spelling, (I sw! spell checkers are screwing with correct spelling.)

Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
What about the Browns? Did they stick their necks out to acquire Watson and all his baggage in order to make a lateral move from Baker or do they think he is a substantial upgrade?
Same Browns who gave Hue Jackson a 3rd start to a season after 1-15 got Worse! poke


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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