DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Mass Shootings

A better question would be who isn't talking about that? I actually agree with you on many points, but it seems one side claims it's the exclusive reason and not a part of a larger puzzle here. It has been discussed how poor our mental health system is. And that's true. I'm not for banning any firearms or taking away anyone's right to buy firearms much like yourself. I do propose raising the age to purchase such firearms to 21. In many of these cases these mass shooters are between the ages of 18-20 and legally purchase these assault rifles. Simply raising the age to purchase them up to 21 seems as though it may have prevented many of these shootings. Now I'm sure some will say that's infringing on the rights of those 18-20 but hell, they're not even old enough to buy a beer and yet some people think it's fine to allow them to buy a weapon that has the ability to kill mass amounts of people so quickly? That just doesn't make sense to me.

But once again let's look at the mental health aspect of this. Are those who are blaming it on mental health proposing we increase funding and spending on mental health? You do realize that even if someone is mentally ill, the best mental healthcare system in the world doesn't do any good if they don't seek help. There is no record of their issues if they never received any help. Let's use this case as an example. There is no record he has ever received treatment for mental health issues. Every report I've seen indicate this kid was bullied from an early age. Someone being bullied wouldn't appear to have an aggressive nature because he is the one being picked on. So how would you predict something like this would happen?

You see, it's easy to just blame everything on mental health issues. The problem is what can you actually do about it? What are your solutions to address it? Because as with everything, knowing there's a problem and finding a solution to that problem are two different things.

As of now the obvious way to address trying to decrease these school shootings is to raise the age of purchasing any semi-automatic weapon to age 21 and mandating a metal detector at every entrance to our schools. Because nobody can predict when a person may snap and there is no record of someone having a mental illness if they haven't been diagnosed with one.

How sad is that?

i have daughters in elementary and middle school. the last 2 years they have practiced school shooter drills more than other drills like fire and such.

it's....the word 'sad' just doesn't hit hard enough.

So since we can't try to address every gun issue in America, let's ignore what we can do to protect and try to stop guns most innocent victims, our children? I've known many people who claim since they can't fix an entire problem they will do nothing to address any part of the problem. One thing for sure is when it comes to people who think that way, nothing ever gets better. The topic is school shootings. And facts do exist in regards to school shootings. Many of them are committed by people between the ages of 18-20. In moat every case it's an AR-15 style rifle being used. Trying to distract from those facts do nothing to do with our children being gunned down in schools.

Of course we all care about all murders. But you have to start somewhere. And for me creating a situation where our children feel safe at school is as good as any place to start. Actually I think it's the best place to start.

How many of those guns got their on their own? Do you think people could have used something else? VA Tech it was a handgun. Sandy Hook he had a shotgun as well.

BTW saying AR-15 in this case is like saying handgun. It really is a class of arm, not something specific, not any more. We have two of them, a really nice Colt and and a nice CMMG that was home built. They are as different as a SIG and Glock chambered in the same caliber.

Then let's be totally clear. Make the age of 21 the legal age to be semi automatic weapons. You see, I made the same case you did in regards to the latest pistol I bought. 9mm came with 3, 19 round magazines. That's why I don't think going to an extreme length like banning assault rifles like the fringe left does makes any sense. It only takes matter of a few seconds to change the magazine in my pistol. That's 57 rounds in short order.

Oh, "He had a shotgun as well". Yeah, a shotgun is capable of firing 60 or 90 rounds in less than a minute and can be reloaded in 3 seconds. Dear Lord.

This. So obvious it's painful, literally.


And this is where we better get our heads out of our a$$es as a society. Our next passive approach is ignoring the elephant in the room and waiting for someone to tell us there's something wrong, on a case by case basis. The scourge of our times is one that will require prevention, hand-in-hand with intervention and diagnosis... and it's already reached epidemic proportions.

I'll just leave this here from a post on FB. One can call it anecdotal, but if you don't think this is true of any and every group of "kids", in nearly every setting, you're blind. Trust me, I've learned the hard way with my youngest son. As a parent, I can tell you how quickly you can reach a point where you feel powerless.


We're already behind the eight ball, the next ten years will be scary. Without some drastic changes, the decades that follow may spell our demise. Over the top? Yes. For good reason.

Not to be a downer, but the demise is upon us. It has been taking place for the last 25 years. Maybe more.

Reagan. Republican Jesus is now officially the antichrist.

I've advocated that we should make 20 the age of majority across the board. The down side is too many people graduate HS 3ish years earlier than that. I do like a fixed cutoff between minor and adult though. Maybe if schools spent more time getting people ready to be adults and less time telling them they are special and can be anything they set their little minds to we'd have better citizens.

I would love to watch you shoot 90 rounds of shotgun in less than a minute. I really doubt your body would handle it. I notice you missed the part about VA Tech too, it is inconvenient to think that a mass shooting can be carried out with a handgun with 10 round magazines. Really kills the idea it is only AR-Killydeath-15s ghostguns with million round clipazines.

I really don't dismiss the point the teacher made. I too am concerned about how those "sucked into their devices"often lack basic communication skills, have more trouble communicating, dealing with people in social settings and on an individual basis. Sure there are time it makes more sense to text. But at one point humans figured out that you could tell a lot more in a persons voice, tone and demeanor by talking to them than reading what is in the written word. Now it seems a growing percentage of our society would rather avoid talking and use the written word instead.

I will point out however the teachers own words for some context as it relates to the topic of discussion we are engaged in. School shootings.

"It's tragic to me that a large percentage of today's youth do not know how to have real conversations

Yet those committing these school shootings are very small, small number of our young people. I understand what people are saying about identifying and preventing the problem before it happens. But as you can see by what the teacher is saying within its context, it's a very small fraction of our children who she describes in that FB post that the problem of extreme violence ever manifests itself in.

So do we really want to try to pigeonhole every student who is introverted as having a mental issue? Because as the teacher points out, there's a large percentage who are, and a very small percentage of those who are introverted that ever become monsters. There's a very real possibility that we could go overboard in the other direction and label a lot f children who aren't really a danger to anyone.

I think it is a very complicated issue and one not easily dealt with.

Handguns are much more easily concealed than your standard AR15 (especially when you have states that limit how short the barrel can be.

Rifles are easier for the amateur to shoot.

I actually didn't ignore it at all. You're the one who brought up the fact that the Sandy Hook shooter " had a shotgun as well". I'm surprised that my sarcasm escaped you. It was actually intended to point out that there's no way to fire off that many rounds in such a short period of time with a shotgun. So your point that "he had a shotgun as well" was a moot point in the discussion.

I also pointed out that I could just as easily use my 9mm which came with 3, 19 round magazines could just as easily fire 57 rounds in about the same amount of time someone could do so with an AK.

So we agree on almost all of that. The part I admit that you seem to ignore is the FACT that in the vast majority of these school shootings, an AR style rifle is the gun of choice. I'm not sure why you keep trying to minimize that.

I don't minimize it. If you remove AR-15s from the pool (an impossible task) something would fill the void. Gangsters used to go to Ace and get their Tommy guns. When that became difficult they picked something else, the deaths didn't go down. The violence didn't go down. Something else will always fill the void, unless of course you advocate a complete gun ban, which is not going to happen.

Now I think I want to go shopping for an AR-10. Might be a fun addition to the collection.

Which is exactly the same thing I was saying and have said before on such threads. That's why the idea that banning what they call assault rifles is a stupid idea. they will just use a different semi automatic weapon with similar firepower. That in no way changes the fact that as of now an AR style rifle is the gun of choice among school shooters. You act as if though each statement can not be independently true of the other. They can.

Enjoy your shopping trip.

To shoot 90 rounds out of a shotgun, or ANY gun, in a minute or less, it would have to be a full automatic.

Not just any bloke can get the FFL to purchase a full auto, and anyone that alters a semi to be full is a felon withouth that FFL. The background checks are much, MUCH deeper and in depth. Most people that have the ability (license) to own a full auto are gun collectors.

Naw.. just need a rubber band for bump fire.

I've peeked at getting something nice in full auto, but the prices are insane for anything I would actually want to own.

You have an FFL?

Don't need a rubber band for bumpfiring. Don't need a special stock. Just pants with a belt loop.

Yeah, like you have a permit to buy a fully automatic weapon.

Says the guy that boasts about all his guns, and his 'ability'.

Fill out the form, pay yer money... wait.. and wait.. and wait...

Transfer it to a FFL that can accept and it sits and waits for you...

If I was gonna go down that route I'd likely do a trust for it. I have friends that and all attorney type that deal with that if I need it.

Not really sure what is so funny.

I actually enjoyed my conversations earlier w/Luke and Jester. No bickering. Just some honest dialogue and exchanging of ideas. There is no need to be in agreement, but respectful conversation is productive. I feel that you are reasonable, as well. Tired of guys hammering their own particular bias down other's throats.

I mentioned a holistic approach when talking to Luke. This takes time and money. That is something that folks don't want to hear, but we must think of our future as a society. That is why we need to do a deep dive into research. I think we need to put more effort into "profiling," just like the FBI has done w/serial killers. I think Luke was dead-on about European countries and their lack of mass murders and their gun laws. We must consider that. Just don't stop there. I do not know the answers to these questions, but we should look into political and social discord w/in those countries. Do they argue like we do about one party or another? Do their children spend as much time playing video games, on social media, watching TV, etc as our children do? What about home life? More single parent homes or not? How do our countries view education? Are class problems as wide spread as ours? What about sense of community? Stronger there or not? Do these countries have more or less separation than we do on social and political issues? What about religious beliefs. Hell, we have posters on this board who constantly paint religious people in a negative light. Do they do that in Europe? I could go on and on and on, but the point is that we need to explore as much information as we possibly can. We need to look at all the factors that we can. There is no simple answer that will solve the problem. Hell, even w/that..........will we ever solve the problem? I know that the things I am hoping for will cost untold dollars. Do we want to commit to that? Or, do we want to offer prayers and point fingers as more and more of our children are slaughtered?

I doubt there is a fail proof system, but I agree. That is why I would want 2-4 officers in schools depending on size and parents, volunteers watching doors and hallways. More eyes watching creates valuable time.

This guy apparently wrecked his car a good distance away. If you saw some guy running towards the school with a rifle and could notify the on site officers, who knows what could be prevented in total, or go a long way towards cutting casualties.

The doors were unlocked. Why? All entries should be locked except for the main entrance, and there you would have eyes on the door. The only way to prevent entry is to deny entry.

The country divided, the lack of bipartisanship, Trump and the Big Lie - you are seeing the death of Democracy....

The only way to prevent being shot is to deny gun availability....

This is genius. I can definitely see this and agree wholeheartedly that some of these individuals spend increasingly more and more time on the internet without real human interaction. As much as I love YouTube and this board myself, this isn't the real world. It's perfectly fine and normal to have fun online but most of the individuals have a life offline, a family, friends, connections. When all you have is yourself and the Internet world for an extended period of time you can often have trouble relating to people and God forbid, talking about your own personal issues and vulnerabilities. The more you associate and talk with others, the more it makes someone else comfortable to share feelings they may be experiencing.

The more one shares their personal feelings over time, the more they get used to it. I can see this being an issue, particularly for men, as talking about one's feelings is often considered a faux pas in society thanks to gender roles and culture. I've also noticed that women in general seem to have more friends, talk about their interpersonal issues whereas men may have friends as well, feelings sharing is seen as a taboo subject.

I think there should be age requirements and license classifications for certain types of guns that are more dangerous than others with restrictions.

rifle/shotguns/handguns of certain types are not the same as the AR-15, and I just don't get the reasoning that they will use something else, something else may not be as lethal.

The .223/5.7 mm round that is used in AR-15 may be small, but it is pretty destructive to anything that it hits because of its velocity.

I pulled up an old snopes article on the issue.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ar-15-bullet-hole-size-wound/

here is another article.

https://www.wired.com/2016/06/ar-15-can-human-body/

Magazine size is also important. Time to change, is enough time to stop someone.

For the life of me, I don't understand the selling of ballistic armor to individuals.

More people are killed by .22 than other calibers.

There is nothing magical about the AR-15. Stoner designed a good tool, but it isn't some highly destructive gun. It barely meets the standards for hunting deer in some states, there's lots of guns (handguns and long guns) that are far more powerful.

A gun cannot shoot by itself. Long live the 2nd Ammendment!

j/c...

My goodness.

I think that information is probably out there already, but it has just never been aggregated in any meaningful way. It sounds like a worthy pursuit for a credible think tank to explore. No doubt, it would be a huge project, stacked with layers of data and tons of intersectionality, but it would be worth the effort.

Mental health issues are often times tied to illicit drug use....I have personally seen it in friends and family. Modern drug use is not the same as what people fondly remember in the 60s and 70s....yet a huge swath of society wants to push for legal pot that rots the brain and conscience....common sense gun reform? You dont get to lie on your 4473 when it comes to your drug use...piss in a cup to get your gun....pop hot for federally restricted drugs and you get denied......i can hear the 420 crowd now....pot use is huge but only a few have issues.

I’m not going to read through eight pages of the same old [censored] from the gun enthusiasts or anyone else and I likely won’t read this thread again - it’s too demoralizing. So if you have a problem with me, send me a PM.

Then again, don’t bother.

No offence to anyone here, but STFU and take a good look at the landscape.

And screw the Constitution, which never said any old asshat has the right to carry a gun, anyway, and besides, that piece of paper is centuries old. Feel free to change it when warranted.

Here’s my perspective: as I said in another thread, stop letting any old crazy get a gun without background checks. Any kind of gun. That little jerk down in Texas bought an AR-15 three days after his 18th birthday. Two weeks ago.

Stop listening to gutless politicians like Trump and Cruz and all the other ones who are afraid of hurting their election chances.

Illegalize handguns. Yeah they’ll be available on the black market, but over time, that will be less of a factor, and it’ll be harder and harder to get them. At least you’ll lessen the chances of things like this happening.

Stop letting the NRA and the gun lobby dictate control.

I don’t care about “our right to bear arms”.
I’d rather arm bears.

I’m okay with it to a point, but not every American cowboy has a right to bear arms, any more than they have the right to drive a car.

This is just a perspective from a Canadian, and if you don’t like it I don’t care.

Sandy Hook, Parkland, now Texas, among many others. Y’all good with this?

How many more will it take?

Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering

As police detail new timeline of mass shooting at elementary school, community members express anger and frustrationBy Elizabeth Findell , Rob Copeland and Douglas BelkinUpdated May 26, 2022 4:06 pm ET
link


UVALDE, Texas—The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said in a news conference Thursday laying out a new timeline of events.

Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said he couldn’t say why no one stopped the now deceased gunman, 18 year-old Salvador Ramos, from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes when he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.

DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school. “There was not an officer readily available and armed,” Mr. Escalon said.Ramos shot his grandmother Tuesday morning and then used her truck to drive to Robb Elementary School, crashing the truck into a nearby ditch at 11:28 a.m., according to the timeline laid out by Mr. Escalon. The gunman then began shooting at people at a funeral home across the street, prompting a 911 call reporting a gunman at the school at 11:30. Ramos then climbed a fence onto school grounds and began firing before walking inside, unimpeded, at 11:40. The first police arrived on the scene at 11:44 and exchanged gunfire with Ramos, who barricaded himself in a fourth-grade classroom. There, he killed the students and teachers.

A Border Patrol tactical team went into the school an hour later, around 12:40, was able to get into the classroom and kill Ramos, Mr. Escalon said.

Thursday’s updates came as Uvalde residents were asking questions and expressing anger over the time it took for law enforcement to end the school shooting. Videos circulated on social media showing parents confronting police outside the building while Ramos was barricaded in the classroom.

“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary School, where her children are in second and third grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.”

State officials have said that local police were at the school within a few minutes of the gunman entering the building and exchanged gunfire with him, but they were unable to gain access to a classroom where he barricaded himself, firing on officers.

Ms. Gomez, a farm supervisor, said that she was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.

Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.

Videos circulated on social media Wednesday and Thursday of frantic family members trying to get access to Robb Elementary as the attack was unfolding, some of them yelling at police who blocked them from entering.

“Shoot him or something!” a woman’s voice can be heard yelling on a video, before a man is heard saying about the officers, “They’re all just [expletive] parked outside, dude. They need to go in there.

”Parents can be heard yelling to each other that their kids were inside the school and that they needed to get in. A woman can be heard yelling at a police officer, “He’s one person! Take him out!

”The videos were collected by Storyful, a social-media research company owned byNews Corp, parent company of The Wall Street Journal.

The Uvalde Police Department couldn’t be reached for comment. A representative for the U.S. Marshals didn’t respond to a request for comment.

Asked at the press conference why law enforcement weren’t able to respond in the initial 12 minutes Ramos was outside the school, Mr. Escalon said that was part of the investigation. “Our job is to report the facts and have answers. We’re not there yet,” he said.

Texas state trooper Juan Maldonado said he went to the school with a friend whose wife was one of the teachers slain in the shooting.

He said police were already on the scene, indicating a fast response time, and that it appeared they had set up a perimeter around the building.

Mr. Maldonado said he and the friend were able to enter the building to get students out and showed cuts on his forearms that he said were from breaking windows to assist in that effort.“I don’t want to critique anything; we’re here to be supportive of the community,” he said.

After the confrontation ended with Ramos dead, school buses began to arrive to transport students from the school, according to Ms. Gomez. She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child.

“They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Ms. Gomez said.

Danny Ruiz, whose great-niece died in the attack, said he arrived at the school after hearing gunfire and felt grateful for the police response.

“The Border Patrol agent who took him out, to me, that guy is a hero,” said Mr. Ruiz, 51.

Thursday’s rising anger came after more than 1,000 people from this grieving city gathered Wednesday night for a prayer vigil.

“God is here with us tonight,” Pastor Tony Gruben, of Baptist Temple Church, told the people gathered at the Uvalde County Fairplex. “God still loves you and God still loves those little children.

”Community members packed the stands, spilled into the aisles and stood on the dirt rodeo floor where the ministers preached from a stage under flags of Texas and the U.S. White cowboy hats dotted the audience along with scores of maroon T-shirts that said “Uvalde Coyotes,” the high school mascot. A phalanx of police officers stood stone-faced watching the crowd, and scores of journalists from around the world aimed their cameras and beamed the scene around the globe.

President Biden and first lady Jill Biden will travel to Uvalde on Sunday to grieve with the community, the White House said.

The massacre represented the deadliest school shooting since the slayings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., nearly 10 years ago.

—Alicia A. Caldwell and Sadie Gurman contributed to this article.

Write to Elizabeth Findell at Elizabeth.Findell@wsj.com, Rob Copeland at rob.copeland@wsj.com and Douglas Belkin at doug.belkin@wsj.com

It likely has lived too long in its current form, SB...

A person throwing a bullet is much less likely to kill someone than a person shooting it out of a gun

That's a very astute observation. Kudo's to you.

Now, let's talk about the 330,000,000 or some such number of guns that AREN'T used in an illegal manner.

Men have buds, pals, runnin' mates, wingmen and bros: other fellows who share hobbies and interests, but very little of themselves.
It's also one of the main reasons why we die on average 8-10 years earlier than our wives.
#mensmentalhealth

Q: Why does the high-dollar Wall St. stock trader pay 1k/hr to see a shrink?
A: Because he doesn't actually have a Real Friend to talk to who actually knows, hears, and cares about him.

It's the same reason he pays 1k/hr for 'Misty' to feign for him a version of the human intimacy he lacks in his life. They go to dinner, a show, and back to the loft for a (hollow, shallow, predictable) 'happy ending.' 5k later, he still can't get what he needs, because he can't give what is necessary in order to receive. No money in the world can fill that hole, and the hole was built into him from Day One. His only real hope for happiness or fulfilment is to do the one thing he's never been raised or trained to do.

That was just one example of the gender role issue, which I'm glad you pointed out. In every strata of society, from Wall St. to Main St. Smalltown, USA, this an issue. Guys are raised with a tool kit that is only half-full. It limits us as a society.


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