BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — A gunman in military-style clothing opened fire with a rifle at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York, in what authorities called a “hate crime and racially motived violent extremism,” killing 10 people and wounding three others before being taken in custody Saturday afternoon, law enforcement officials said.
The gunman was identified as Payton Gendron of Conklin, a community about 200 miles (320 kilometers) southeast of Buffalo in New York state, two law enforcement officials told the AP. The officials were not permitted to speak publicly on the matter and did so on the condition of anonymity.
The suspect was being questioned Saturday evening by the FBI, one of the officials said, and was expected to appear in court later Saturday.
Officials said 11 of the victims were Black and two are white. The shooting happened in a predominantly Black neighborhood a few miles (kilometers) north of downtown Buffalo.
“This is the worst nightmare that any community can face, and we are hurting and we are seething right now,” Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said at a news conference. “The depth of pain that families are feeling and that all of us are feeling right now cannot even be explained.”
Erie County Sheriff John Garcia added, “This was pure evil. It was straight up racially motivated hate crime from somebody outside of our community, outside of the City of Good neighbors ... coming into our community and trying to inflict that evil upon us.”
Police officials said the gunman opened fire with a rifle at a Tops Friendly Market. Investigators believe he may have been streaming the shooting through a camera affixed to his helmet, one of the officials said.
The video showed the gunman pulling up to the front of the store with a rifle on the front seat and then pointing the rifle at people in the parking lot as he exited the vehicle and opening fire, the official said.
It also shows the suspect walking into the supermarket and shooting several other victims inside, the official said. One of the victims was a recently retired police officer who was working as a security guard at the store, according to the official.
The supermarket is in a predominately Black neighborhood, about 3 miles (5 kilometers) north of downtown Buffalo. The surrounding area is primarily residential, with a Family Dollar store and fire station near the store.
Witnesses reported the gunman was wearing military-style clothing in addition to the body armor and a helmet, one of the law enforcement officials told AP.
Braedyn Kephart and Shane Hill, both 20, pulled into the parking lot just as the shooter was exiting. They described him as a white male in his late teens or early twenties sporting full camo, a black helmet and what appeared to be a rifle.
“He was standing there with the gun to his chin. We were like what the heck is going on? Why does this kid have a gun to his face?” Kephart said. He dropped to his knees. “He ripped off his helmet, dropped his gun, and was tackled by the police.”
At the White House, Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre said President Joe Biden is receiving regular updates on the shooting and its aftermath.
“The president has been briefed by his Homeland Security advisor on the horrific shooting in Buffalo, N.Y., this afternoon. He will continue to receive updates throughout the evening and tomorrow as further information develops,” she said, adding the president and first lady were praying for the victims and their loved ones.
Tops Friendly Markets released a statement saying, “We are shocked and deeply saddened by this senseless act of violence and our thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.”
Police closed off the block, lined by spectators, and yellow police taped surrounded the full parking lot. Mayor Brown and Erie County Executive Mark Poloncarz were at the scene late Saturday afternoon, gathered in a parking lot across the street from the Tops store and expected to address the media.
More than two hours of the shooting, Erica Pugh-Mathews was waiting outside the store, behind the police tape.
“We would like to know the status of my aunt, my mother’s sister. She was in there with her fiance, they separated and went to different aisles,” she said. “A bullet barely missed him. He was able to hide in a freezer but he was not able to get to my aunt and does not know where she is. We just would like word either way if she’s OK.”
Gov. Kathy Hochul tweeted that she was “closely monitoring the shooting at a grocery store in Buffalo,” her hometown. She said state officials have offered help to local authorities. The Erie County Sheriff’s Office said on social media that it ordered all available personnel to assist Buffalo police.
Attorney General Merrick Garland was briefed on the shooting, Justice Department spokesperson Anthony Coley said.
The shooting came little more than a year after a March 2021 attack at a King Soopers grocery in Boulder, Colorado, that killed 10 people. Investigators have not released any information about why they believe the man charged in that attack targeted the supermarket.
___
Associated Press reporters John Wawrow in Buffalo and Eric Tucker in Washington contributed to this report. Balsamo reported from Washington and Collins reported from Hartford, Connecticut.
What we know Ten people were killed and three injured during a mass shooting at a Buffalo, New York, supermarket Saturday afternoon, according to the city's police commissioner. The shooting is being investigated as a hate crime, the FBI said. The suspect was arraigned on a charge of murder in first degree Saturday evening, a district attorney said.
Ten people were killed in a racially motivated mass shooting at a supermarket in Buffalo on Saturday by a suspect in tactical gear who was livestreaming the attack, law enforcement officials said during a news conference.
Here's what we know so far about the attack:
How the attack unfolded: Buffalo Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia said the suspect drove to the Tops Friendly Markets store around 2:30 p.m. ET. Wearing tactical gear, he shot four people in the parking lot, Gramaglia said, and then went inside the store, where a security guard engaged him. The suspect shot and killed the guard and then "continued to work his way through the store," Gramaglia said. About the victims: A total of 13 people were shot, 10 fatally, officials said Saturday. Four of the people who were shot were store employees, including the security guard. Out of the 13 victims, 11 are Black while two are White, according to Gramaglia said. There's a hate crime investigation: Saturday's mass shooting in Buffalo is being investigated as a hate crime, the FBI said. Officials did not elaborate. The shooting was livestreamed: Twitch, the popular livestreaming platform best known for gaming, confirmed on Saturday that the shooting suspect used its platform to stream a live broadcast during the attack. CNN has obtained a portion of the Twitch livestream that shows the shooter pulling up to the market. Officials are reviewing a possible manifesto: Two federal law enforcement officials told CNN that investigators are reviewing a purported manifesto posted online in connection with the Buffalo mass shooting probe. The suspect was arraigned: The suspect was arraigned Saturday evening in Buffalo City Court Chief Judge Craig Hannah's courtroom, the judge told CNN. The suspect was arraigned on a charge of murder in the first degree, Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said. The judge also ordered a forensic examination, he said. What happens next: There will be a felony hearing in five days, Flynn said. Stephen Belongia, special agent in charge of the FBI Buffalo field office, said the FBI is "investigating this at the federal level, as a hate crime. And as an instance of a racially motivated violent extremism." At a news conference, he added, "We will bring all of the resources of the federal government to bear on this case. This is the number one priority of the Department of Justice, and I can assure the citizens of this community that anything that we can do at the federal level, with this case will be done. And justice will be served for the victims."
26 min ago Suspect arraigned in Buffalo supermarket shooting From CNN’s Sabrina Shulman and Artemis Moshtaghian
The suspect in the shooting at a supermarket in Buffalo, New York, was arraigned Saturday evening, Buffalo City Court Chief Judge Craig Hannah told CNN.
The suspect, identified as Payton Gendron, 18, was arraigned in Hannah’s courtroom, the judge said.
"Justice is already being done, immediately," Erie County District Attorney John Flynn said at a news conference Saturday night.
"This individual has been arraigned on murder in the first degree, which is the highest charge — murder charge in New York state. It carries with it a sentence of life without parole, the highest punishment we have a New York state. He was remanded. The judge ordered a forensic examination. A felony hearing will now take place in five days. And then the investigation continues."
Flynn said the judge was called up to arraign the suspect tonight.
"We are now investigating terrorism charges, other murder charges, along with working with our partners in the federal government so that they can perhaps file charges as well. So I assure everyone in this community, justice is being done right now and justice will be done," Flynn said.
42 min ago This was "a military-style execution targeting people who simply want to buy groceries," NY governor says
New York Gov. Kathy Hochul expressed outrage following the "military-style execution" at a Buffalo supermarket. "A military-style execution targeting people who simply want to buy groceries in a neighborhood store. It strikes us to our very hearts to know that there is such evil that looks out there," she said at a news conference.
Hochul said it is her "sincere hope" that the suspect, who is facing a charge of murder in first degree, "will spend the rest of the day his days behind bars."
"Heaven help him in the next world as well," she added.
1 hr 10 min ago Twitch says livestream of mass shooting was removed in under two minutes From CNN’s Brian Stelter
A spokesperson for Twitch said that the company removed the livestream by the Buffalo supermarket mass shooting suspect less than two minutes after the attack started.
Social media companies have struggled to keep up with a torrent of violent content on their platforms, so Twitch's performance may be applauded by some, while still criticized by others.
The company did not immediately respond to follow-up questions about whether the suspect was still actively firing when the livestream was halted.
1 hr 28 min ago Livestream of shooting shows gunman pulling up to supermarket and saying, "Just got to go for it" From CNN's Sharif Paget
CNN has obtained a portion of the Twitch livestream that shows the shooter pulling up to a Tops Friendly Markets store in Buffalo, New York, before opening fire on people Saturday afternoon.
The video is taken from the point of view of the shooter as he's driving into the parking lot of the Tops market. The shooter, who is seen in the rearview mirror wearing a helmet, is heard saying, "Just got to go for it" before he pulls into the front of the store. In the video, store patrons can be seen walking through the parking lot as the suspect drives up.
In a news conference on Saturday evening, Buffalo Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia said the shooting was livestreamed.
In a statement sent to CNN, Twitch confirmed the shooting was streamed and said the user "has been indefinitely suspended from our service, and we are taking all appropriate action, including monitoring for any accounts rebroadcasting this content."
CNN is not airing the video at this time.
1 hr 56 min ago Buffalo supermarket shooting live-streamed on Twitch, platform says From CNN’s Brian Stelter
Twitch, the popular live-streaming platform best known for gaming, confirmed on Saturday that the Buffalo supermarket shooting suspect used its platform to stream a live broadcast during the attack.
"We are devastated to hear about the shooting that took place this afternoon in Buffalo, New York," the company said. "Our hearts go out to the community impacted by this tragedy. Twitch has a zero-tolerance policy against violence of any kind and works swiftly to respond to all incidents." Twitch said that the user "has been indefinitely suspended from our service, and we are taking all appropriate action, including monitoring for any accounts rebroadcasting this content."
Officials during a news conference earlier Saturday did not say where the livestream was, only that it was on a "social media platform," according to Erie County District Attorney John J. Flynn.
1 hr 22 min ago Homeland Security secretary briefed on Buffalo shooting From CNN's Gregory Clary
Secretary of Homeland Security Alejandro Mayorkas has been briefed on the shooting in Buffalo, according to an official tweet from the department.
“DHS is actively coordinating with all relevant local, state, and federal agencies and will continue to provide the Department’s full support,” according to the tweet.
1 hr 45 min ago Erie County DA says Buffalo shooting suspect will be arraigned on charge of murder in first degree tonight From CNN's Sabrina Shulman and Samantha Beech in New York
Updates that are time stamped earlier can be seen by clicking the link below and scrolling down...
Care to talk about how Tucker Carlson spreads the White Replacement/Great Replacement theory? The individual who did this attack directly cites these talking points that come on a nightly basis and on the radio from Carlson.
Everything looks pretty clear cut. I don't think there are many questions about him doing this.
I am all for everybody getting a fair trial, but things like this shouldn't take too long. Get him evaluated, then to trial and put it behind us. Life in prison. If the death penalty is in play, get any mandatory appeals out of the way and end it. To me it is a cruel and unusual punishment to give the death penalty then not carry it out until 15 years later.
Again, this is when there is zero doubt about who committed the crime.
Some may use this as a political deal. I don't see it that way at all. It is a human thing, and we just don't need people like that, no matter what their crazy mind used to motivate them
Would you support removing hosts from air that repeat the same talking points in his manifesto?
There’s one currently on fox who says this to millions every single night.
We might disagree on the manifesto, and we might just disagree on most things, but probably not.
I might not agree with "Woke" on nearly anything, but I wouldn't be in favor of censoring. I think that as a society we have sides, and each side it too tolerant of the bad actors on their side of things. Let's get rid of some of the bad actors and I think guys like you and I would probably be more in agreement than we think. Unfortunately, as humans we have a long history of thinking the other tribe, nation, or clan has to go.
Would you support removing hosts from air that repeat the same talking points in his manifesto?
There’s one currently on fox who says this to millions every single night.
i can't speak for peen, but my answer to that question is no.
you know better than anybody how much i hate racist. however, i don't need racist or white nationalist to be banned. they still have constitutional rights to so whatever the hell they want, as long as its not intentionally inciting violence.
my belief has always been that if i feel strongly against whatever someone like Tucker is saying, then my own beliefs should be solid enough to counter their opinions. you see this play out on the boards all the time. if i feel strongly enough that whoever posting is posting stupid nonsense, imma respond. i don't need them banned, or restricted. doing that not only validates their beliefs, but makes it seem like we want to suppress speech we don't like. to do that, Rocket, would be us turning into Ron DeSantis and the other right wing losers.
remember: conservatives tried that crap with muslim extremism. they wanted to ban mosque cause they swore up and down that they were preaching terrorism inside, and people would go and act on it. guess what i do that got me banned from my own family (lol)? trashed the dog crap out of islam and told them how backwards their views are. it sucked, but i haven't lost any sleep over it.
I actually agree with you. The only problem I see with it is this. Take people like Tucker and his promotion of the white replacement theory. There are white supremacist groups all over the internet. Groups that promote overthrowing the government as well. So it's not as if Tucker is some isolated case. But as much as some would refuse to admit it, FOX News is no less a part of mainstream media as any other major news network. Tucker isn't some nobody with a third rate web site. When he speaks it gives it a certain amount of legitimacy to those who listen and believe him. So do things like "There were good people on both sides". When you have several elected officials spouting this nonsense each and every one of them are adding credence to such extremists. They embolden them.
Where I agree with those on the right is that most of these people who commit such crimes do have some sort of mental illness. Where I have a problem is they never seem willing to admit that it's many such groups, people and politicians whose words manipulate, instigate and insight those mentally ill people to commit such atrocities. They add to the vile that gives their way of thinking credibility. And that's the most sickening part of it all.
it is far too easy to methodically destroy the White Replacement Theory. the issue is that our liberal leaders self-segregate themselves from conservative outlets, allowing a cesspool of echo chambers to manifest with little to no pushback. one thing about conservatives that i have always gave them mad credibility for is being willing to go straight into the lion's den and fight for their beliefs. they know that SOMEONE is always listening, as social movements are like planting seeds and encouraging the ideas to blossom into action.
that's why i can't help myself but get sucked into the arguments. because at the end of the day, this kind of crap happens *in part* because people have their ideas validated by the worst of the worst, and literally no one is around them to tell them any different, until it's too late.
bro just in my experience growing up combined with the current events of today, nobody calls white people 'white trash' more than other white people. so please correct me if i'm wrong, but it's my opinion that there is a very deep and unaddressed divide amongst white americans, and unfortunately the negative reactions and outburst from said divide gets unleashed upon minority groups in this country.
minorities always seem to argue in favor of breaking down the narratives with white nationalist types, but a large percentage of white americans won't even bother to engage with them. and that's a problem because ultimately they will value more of what someone who is white will say over a minority due to race. but too many white liberals won't even bother engaging with far right figures, and minorities end up going 1 step forward and 2 steps back.
Would you support removing hosts from air that repeat the same talking points in his manifesto?
There’s one currently on fox who says this to millions every single night.
I don't see that as being any different than blaming rappers for inciting violence and promoting sexual abuse. If you're against one you should be against the other.
I will address the "white trash" issue. I find that to have been true on a much larger scale quite some time ago. And I would agree while it still is true, not on the scale it used to be. I certainly think it's more valid amongst progressives who are well off or well educated now than anywhere else.
The reason for that is that Republicans wish to embrace the uneducated to garner their political support. They pander to them as the forgotten people. The people who have no voice. And it works like a charm. So the noise about white trash has silenced from the right even though at one time they were no less guilty of it.
And you are right about much of white society giving more credence to what a white person says over that of a minority especially in regards to the political right. In the first place I think all people can much more easily believe, trust and think people who resemble themselves understand them better. They identify with people who most closely resemble themselves. I think that holds true for most every race of people. Secondly it's not hard to see how those on the right vilify race. You only need to look at the BLM movement as the latest example of that.
I guess since we're making generalities, I could say this: The dem's pander to the poor, those "without a voice" and promise financial redistribution, all while making it easier to not work and just suck off the teet of the gov't., all in the name of getting votes.
How many people have TRULY benefited? Oh, sure, LOTS of people. (hint: even whites) yes, they benefit in that they can survive, but not achieve more than survival.
Instead of "I will help you to help yourself", it's become "I'll help you survive, and I'll tax the "rich" (with loop holes to allow them out of it), but just vote for me.
You could say that. Both parties pander to their voters. The main problem I see with what you stated is that only people with children are eligible for welfare benefits. So you could also say those who wish to ban abortions are trying to raise the cost of social programs through the roof by forcing more poor babies to be born. I know the right loves to fall back on the wealth distribution line any time the dems bring up making the wealthy and corporations pay their fair share in taxes. I find it rather amusing you pay such a huge percentage in taxes while sticking up for that BS rhetoric. It's almost like you're willing to bite your nose off to spite your face.
I'll remind you again, only one side is trying to force the ultra wealthy to pay their fair share of taxes. And instead of supporting that, you would rather blame them for creating the mess rather than admit they are the only one's trying to fix it. Murica!
Care to talk about how Tucker Carlson spreads the White Replacement/Great Replacement theory? The individual who did this attack directly cites these talking points that come on a nightly basis and on the radio from Carlson.
I can see why you would say that. And to some extent I agree with you. But I think we both agree that the people who commit such atrocities have mental issues.
And actually to make my position more clear, I'm not trying to say that motivating these people to commit such acts is the intended purpose of people like Tucker. But let's face it, when someone has mental issues portraying things like white replacement theory into their brain may certainly cause unintended consequences. As I said, there are tons of places one can go on the internet to find these same motivations that have caused people to commit violence over all of recorded history. Let's not pretend there isn't a long history of it among the KKK and the white supremacist movements. They act like a cult to take over those who are weak minded and can be convinced of their nonsense. Point being, when you get people who many feel to be credible like Tucker and elected politicians to repeat some of those same things, it gives people more and more reason to believe these things are true and credible.
Candace Owens Exposes Media Hypocrisy in Their Lopsided Coverage of Two Mass Murders By J.D. Rucker • May. 15, 2022
The differences in coverage of crimes in America have never been more glaring. Heavily biased corporate media plays favorites, as they always have, but today’s Mainstream Media Industrial Complex has taken a full-blown suppress-or-amplify approach to the news that is both despicable and destructive. They suppress anything that defies their narrative and they amplify anything that supports it.
The latest blatant examples are connected. On one hand we have the Buffalo mass murder that happened over the weekend and on the other hand we have the Waukesha mass murder that happened last December. Buffalo’s murders were perpetrated by a White male racist. Waukesha’s murders were perpetrated by a Black male racist. One would think that the level of coverage would be approximately the same since both hideous crimes represent the worst aspects of America, but that’s not the case. There has already been more coverage by corporate media of the Buffalo attack in one day than there has been of the Waukesha attack in over five months.
Conservative commentator Candace Owens from The Daily Wire, author of Blackout, took notice and expressed her thoughts on it all:
A black supremacist took a vehicle and plowed it into a group of white people at a Christmas parade in Waukesha. A white supremacist carved the name of one of those white parade victims onto a rifle and livestreamed a mass shooting in a majority black neighborhood.
Both acts are heinous but they will not earn equal coverage in the media. Our dishonest, race-obsessed media should be blamed for BOTH of these massacres. They will elevate the Buffalo shooting because white crimes vs. black victims is preferred. The cycle of hatred continues.
Both acts are heinous but they will not earn equal coverage in the media. Our dishonest, race-obsessed media should be blamed for BOTH of these massacres. They will elevate the Buffalo shooting because white crimes vs. black victims is preferred.
The cycle of hatred continues.
— Candace Owens (@RealCandaceO) May 15, 2022
***Support The Liberty Daily and Mike Lindell -- use code TLD at MyPillow.com and get up to 66% off!*** Dangers in our society must be highlighted based on their level of threat, not based upon a prescribed narrative from radical progressives. The Buffalo massacre fits their narrative that White racist men with firearms are being triggered by people like Tucker Carlson (which isn’t true but that’s not stopping the left from lying about it) to commit their heinous acts. It helps the radical progressives promote their belief in one-way racism while also reinvigorating their push for gun control.
Meanwhile, the Waukesha massacre was quickly swept under the rug. It was racially driven. It was a hate crime. Innocent victims died from it. Yet, the murderer didn’t use a gun and wasn’t White, therefore it has been memory-holed forever by corporate media. It’s noteworthy that the Waukesha victim whose name was carved into the rifle of the Buffalo murderer has not been mentioned by corporate media. They do not want to remind people how lopsided their coverage has been.
If you love the news, check out The Liberty Daily's homepage. ALL crimes of this magnitude need to be covered thoroughly. An honest media would never base their level of coverage on the narrative the crime supports. But we haven’t had honest media in some time, and that in itself is a threat to our freedom.
For half a second, it looked like this would stay friendly and we would all agree it's bad to mass murder and the rhetoric was not healthy. But then 40 hits the denial button and singles out the young man (the shooter) as the only one culpable when this poison is hitting millions of ears a day. Then SB posts some more altright spam and I'm wondering why any on the left would want to move forward with these people. I'm seeing a pattern where they get amiable only long enough to regroup and attack again. You others on the left want to play nice, go ahead. Hope you are wearing back armor, because the knives are out on the right.
For half a second, it looked like this would stay friendly ...
LMAO.............this thread was made to throw shade at one side and some of you jumped all over it. Meanwhile, murders that occur far more frequently by the other side are ignored and even justified.
Both "sides" suck. Some of you can't get that through your heads. Instead of trying to mend fences, you burn bridges.
I'm ready to go in that direction Vers, to an extent. Won't apologize to any Trump supporters still supporting him though. It is what it is until they are ready to be normal reasonable members of our democracy again. That's as far as I go until then, but I to am sick of constant bashing and never getting straight facts that we should all agree on, since we are one people, you know? I had you on ignore so we wouldn't fight, but you have said some on point things in PF that I enjoyed reading (click to view), so I decided we/I could/would at least try to be civil. Maybe you and I can fix it by starting with us. You didn't deserve everything I threw at you when we were bickering. I was pissed and went too far. I apologize for that much. Kumbaya.
No doubt that wacho's find motivation. Chapman found Jody Foster to be his motivation to shoot John Lennon. What motivated a guy like Charlie Manson?
I think we try to look at the motivation rather than just look at the deranged person. It's one thing to not like something or someone. It's a totally different deal when you take that dislike and start killing people.
It becomes dangerous when we as a society try to put some reason behind unreasonable acts. The word unreasonable says it all.
I'm not sure why but many people listen to Tucker Carlson and think his word is gospel.... Personally, I would like those that incite misdeeds to be treated in a similar way as those that actually commit those misdeeds...For me that means nailing Trump, Trump Jr., Rudy, Eastman and a few others to the wall for Jan 6.
so few people wants to address the fact that this dude intentionally looked up a zip code with a majority black demographic, scouted the area, dressed like he was going to iraq, and killed 10 people specifically due to the thought that white people were being replaced.
seems like posters want to talk about everything but the actual topic at hand. i wonder how many posters actually believe in this white replacement theory....
and FYI, this is the 4th or 5th mass shooting incident in the last few years specifically dealing with this 'replacement' nonsense. but i'm sure people gonna play the "whatabout" game because it's easier to deflect.
Odd how a mass shooter outright says it was white supremacist internet BS that motivated him. Odd that trump claimed "there are good people on both sides" after a bunch of white supremacists marched across a college campus with tiki torches chanting "Jews will not replace us". Odd how the shooter admitted it was the white replacement theory that helped motivate him. Odd how people like Tucker and even some elected republican officials spout that same rhetoric.
When you point out that words matter. That words can motivate people to do things they would have never normally have done. eact like you're the one out of touch. How quickly they have forgotten what words caused to happen on Jan. 6th. But then they want to forget that. And they wish we and all of America would forget it too.
And now, after all of that, they feel it's we that should be quiet about it and pretend like words don't actually have consequences. Why am I not surprised by any of that?
He doesn't want us to talk about the motivation behind the shooting or that this isn't isolated. It's been a trend. In Charlottesville the woman who was killed by a racist by being ran over with his car. Like Dylann Roof at the church in South Carolina. Like the mass shooting at the Walmart in Houston. The list goes on and on and on. But you know, if you bring that up or point that out, it's you that's the problem. Ever notice just how hard they try to silence the truth? You know, how it's just like Jody Foster that motivated Mark David Chapman to kill John Lennon.
It's hard to believe people can convince themselves of that BS, yet they do.
so few people wants to address the fact that this dude intentionally looked up a zip code with a majority black demographic, scouted the area, dressed like he was going to iraq, and killed 10 people specifically due to the thought that white people were being replaced.
I don't think anybody's denying the fact that this was absolutely a racially motivated hate crime. The guy needs to be tried, convicted and executed as quickly as the system allows. I think giving publicity to a sick individual's rationale for carrying out a massacre is a mistake, and encourages others who might be willing to pay the ultimate price for the same publicity . However, if this wasn't an individual and isolated act by a deranged sociopath, then we should look into it.
It's been pointed out that this has been a trend over time. So what do you feel about people like tucker and elected officials helping to further the white replacement theory which helps fuel such behavior?
Buffalo shooter’s prior threat, hospital stay under scrutiny
BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) — The white gunman accused of committing a racist massacre at a Buffalo supermarket made threatening comments that brought police to his high school last spring, but he was never charged with a crime and had no further contact with law enforcement after his release from a hospital, officials said.
The revelation raised questions about whether his encounter with police and the mental health system was yet another missed opportunity to put a potential mass shooter under closer law enforcement scrutiny, get him help, or make sure he didn’t have access to deadly firearms.
Authorities said they were investigating the attack on predominantly Black shoppers and workers at the Tops Friendly Market as a potential federal hate crime or act of domestic terrorism. Saturday’s mass violence in Buffalo was the deadliest of a wave of fatal weekend shootings, including at a California church and a Texas flea market.
Payton Gendron, 18, traveled about 200 miles (320 kilometers) from his home in Conklin, New York, to Buffalo to commit the attack, police said.
Federal authorities were still working to confirm the authenticity of a racist 180-page document, purportedly written by Gendron, that said the assault was intended to terrorize all nonwhite, non-Christian people and get them to leave the country.
Law enforcement officials revealed Sunday that New York State Police troopers had been called to Gendron’s high school last June for a report that the then-17-year-old had made threatening statements.
Gendron had threatened to carry out a shooting at Susquehanna Valley High School in Conklin around graduation, a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity said. The official was not authorized to speak publicly on the investigation.
Buffalo Police Commissioner Joseph Gramaglia said Gendron had no further contact with law enforcement after a mental health evaluation that put him in a hospital for a day and a half.
“Nobody called in,” he said. “Nobody called any complaints,” Gramaglia said. The threat was “general” in nature, he said, and not related to race.
New York is one of several states that have enacted “red flag” laws in recent years that were intended to try and prevent mass shootings committed by people who show signs that they might be a threat to themselves or others.
Those laws allow law enforcement officers, a person’s family, or in some cases, medical professionals or school officials to petition courts to temporarily seize the person’s firearms, or prevent them from buying guns.
Federal law bars people from owning guns if a judge has determined they have a “mental defect” or they have been forced into a mental institution — but an evaluation alone would not trigger the prohibition.
It is unclear whether officials could have invoked the “red flag” regulation after the high school incident. Police and prosecutors wouldn’t provide details on the incident, or say when Gendron had purchased the weapons used in the assault.
The long list of mass shootings in the U.S. involving missed opportunities to intervene includes the 2018 massacre of 17 students at a high school in Parkland, Florida, where law enforcement officials had received numerous complaints about the gunman’s threatening statements, and the killings of more than two dozen people at a Texas church in 2017 by a former U.S. Air Force serviceman who was able to buy a gun despite a violent history.
The victims of Saturday’s attack in Buffalo included an 86-year-old woman who had just visited her husband in a nursing home, a man buying a cake for his grandson, a church deacon helping people get home with their groceries and a supermarket security guard.
The shooter livestreamed the attack on Twitch, prompting scrutiny of how fast social platforms react to violent videos.
President Joe Biden planned to visit Buffalo on Tuesday.
Gendron surrendered to police who confronted him in the supermarket’s vestibule. He was arraigned later Saturday on a murder charge. Relatives didn’t respond to messages.
A lengthy statement circulating online, attributed to Gendron, outlined a racist ideology rooted in a belief that the United States should belong only to white people.
Portions of the Twitch video circulating online showed the gunman killing multiple shoppers in less than a minute. At one point, he trains his weapon on a white person cowering behind a checkout counter, but says “Sorry!” and doesn’t shoot. Screenshots purporting to be from the broadcast appear to show a racial slur targeting Black people scrawled on his rifle.
Authorities said Gendron shot, in total, 11 Black people and two white people after he researched neighborhood demographics and conducted reconnaissance to inflict the most damage.
“This individual came here with the express purpose of taking as many Black lives as he possibly could,” Buffalo Mayor Byron Brown said Sunday.
___
Associated Press reporters Robert Bumsted in Buffalo, Michael Hill in Albany, New York, Travis Loller in Nashville and Jake Bleiberg in Dallas contributed reporting. Balsamo reported from Washington.
We need to execute these people in a very public and very gruesome way to deter this behavior. I don't even care if a martyr is made out of it. This [censored] of years in jail and accepting a plea for life in prison is garbage!
No half measures. There is no explaining this one away, we can't keep allowing this to go lightly punished. There is no argument that could explain how this person was not a radical white supremist. He is, he carried out an assignation of black folk with the intent to only kill black folk. This is as clear cut as one has ever been. It's a hate crime, it's first degree murder, it was recorded. I don't even need a trial here.
From a political standpoint, it's the boy who cried wolf again from the left. When everyone is a racist and everyone is a white supremacist, people just roll their eyes when they see a real one. YEARS of calling Kyle Rittenhouse a white supremacist (which was verifiably ridiculous, he killed only white people) will lead to empathetic ears from already hard right partisans.
This might make me sound like a bad person, but considering the evidence at the time of the capture, I think it would have been best if some cop had just put a bullet in the dude's skull. It's not like there was any doubt about his guilt.
I swear, trying to find anything on google in this day an age, no matter how specific you are, is like trying to suck nickels through a straw (I just made that up).
Does anyone know how this cell clump was apprehended?
...in my judgment, this story would become a major issue for discussion in our country as well as a topic of interest to most members on the DT message board.
I posted the AP story without comment or opinion and followed it up with an update, again without any comment or opinion. I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with my decision to post an article pertaining to this subject matter, the murder of 10 people in Buffalo...?
The subject did become the top story of discussion at all levels...appearing at the national, regional and local levels.
vers..the fact that you seem to be the only one who has an issue with this subject matter might say more about 'you and your judgement' than it does about the subject matter.
Calling him what he really is would get me banned.
I like it better when these %^&#%s blow their brains out. Well, not really, doesn't really seem like justice; but it does expose the fact that they're worthless cowards. I think small factor may prevent the next psycho from glorifying and emulating them. And it does save families a lot of grief... gets them a few years closer to "healing", although that never really comes to fruition either.
We need a way to fast-track the trip to the needle in easy cases like this.
...in my judgment, this story would become a major issue for discussion in our country as well as a topic of interest to most members on the DT message board.
I posted the AP story without comment or opinion and followed it up with an update, again without any comment or opinion. I can't imagine why anyone would have a problem with my decision to post an article pertaining to this subject matter, the murder of 10 people in Buffalo...?
The subject did become the top story of discussion at all levels...appearing at the national, regional and local levels.
vers..the fact that you seem to be the only one who has an issue with this subject matter might say more about 'you and your judgement' than it does about the subject matter.
Don't sweat the small stuff mac, and posting to please Vers is as small as it gets bro. All of us could find something to pick at no matter how a post is phrased in here, so why be emotionally invested in anything any of us say on DT? Vers commented, you acknowledged, move on, don't lose sleep over it.
mac, I don't have an issue w/discussing the subject. However, given your posting history of trying to use every means necessary to only paint one side of the picture and your repeated lame-ass labeling of those who have opposing political opinions as "right wing radicals" and the fact that you made a conscious choice to post the story in the Political Forum, it wasn't all that hard to understand your motives. Your MO is well-known. And, of course, one of the first comments was about limiting free speech of those who represent the other side. So you can take your fake innocence and try and pawn it off on someone else.
Calling him what he really is would get me banned.
I like it better when these %^&#%s blow their brains out. Well, not really, doesn't really seem like justice; but it does expose the fact that they're worthless cowards. I think small factor may prevent the next psycho from glorifying and emulating them. And it does save families a lot of grief... gets them a few years closer to "healing", although that never really comes to fruition either.
We need a way to fast-track the trip to the needle in easy cases like this.
I'm with you on these domestic terrorists, if they aren't dead when taken down, don't waste any time trying and putting them down like dogs. Them facing a firing squad is justice, IMO. And like you, I don't shed any tears for them when killed on the spot. As long as they are verified as the active shooter, take em out.
Okay, this is kind of funny. I just made a post to mac and mentioned painting a picture or something like that. I was switching forums and a Facebook ad for "Virtual Painting Classes" was at the top of the page.
mac, I don't have an issue w/discussing the subject. However, given your posting history of trying to use every means necessary to only paint one side of the picture and your repeated lame-ass labeling of those who have opposing political opinions as "right wing radicals" and the fact that you made a conscious choice to post the story in the Political Forum, it wasn't all that hard to understand your motives. Your MO is well-known. And, of course, one of the first comments was about limiting free speech of those who represent the other side. So you can take your fake innocence and try and pawn it off on someone else.
vers...like I said, you seem to be the only one who has an issue with the subject matter of this thread for some reason. For the life of me, I can't figure out what is bothering you these days. You do seem to have "a problem" that only you can address.
As far as where I decided to start this thread, reading just the first sentence of the AP story gave me a hint that there might be a political slant to commentary. I did not give any opinion or make any judgments concerning the story itself. I simply opened the subject up for an honest discussion among DTalkers. IMO, it would not have mattered where the AP story was posted because an incident of this magnitude is going to take it's own course.
Reading you guys makes me want to take the Constitution of the United States of America and wrap a fish in it.
Due Process.
Cruel and Unusual Punishment.
And one large Walleye.
On one hand you are correct that everyone should care about Due Process and Cruel and unusual punishment. On the other, it is pretty clear that the deranged person who committed the crime, only cares about constitutional rights after the fact.
I keep going to what can be done…..
We know that the Bushmaster and the rest of the assault rifles should not be in civilian hands, along with extended magazines.
Replacement theory and manifestos have emerged as a linkage to a number of the shootings.
Now the real challenge is figuring out how to rid ourselves of media/internet/social media forums that allow this discussion without using our first amendment rights against us.
Perhaps the only analogy I can come up with is the “juvenile image” subject which I wont mention even in its more common form.
No easy answers for this one, perhaps we can learn from something from other countries as it is apparent that more lives of good people will be lost in the future without change.
The irony of the past weekend is that those who were “terminated” have nothing to do with immigration, most were beyond their reproductive years and generally not a contributor to the replacement theory.
But that is asking for logical thinking from a person filled with hate and incapable of logical thoughts.
I am uncomfortable with the fact that active shooter’s life was spared and I honestly do not feel that a minority would have not been “terminated” as well.
That's twice that you mentioned "a problem." Speaking of a problem........highlighting a tragedy where lives were lost and whittling it down to crucify one party from another isn't exactly problem free. And you can continue to post whatever you want and I will continue to point out your bias.
replacement theory believers are a bunch of losers. they can get rid of as many minorities as they want, it's not gonna make their crush like them. them women still not gonna date them. Chad's still winning out here
replacement theory believers are a bunch of losers. they can get rid of as many minorities as they want, it's not gonna make their crush like them. them women still not gonna date them. Chad's still winning out here
Hey Swish.........I don't follow politics like you guys do. What is the "replacement theory?"
replacement theory believers are a bunch of losers. they can get rid of as many minorities as they want, it's not gonna make their crush like them. them women still not gonna date them. Chad's still winning out here
Hey Swish.........I don't follow politics like you guys do. What is the "replacement theory?"
Vers, i'm glad you asked. i'll break it down as clearly as i can.
The Great Replacement Theory is a far right conspiracy that claims white americans are being intentionally being replaced with non-white people from other countries, basically a disapproval of America being a melting pot. the people who believe in this try to hide their bigotry behind issues like illegal immigration, however they tend to be against any immigration in general, including eastern European people (who are by american definition 'white'). The conspiracy has gone mainstream for the last year or so, pushed by people like Tucker Carlson, who cherry pick stats like birth rates and census numbers to support the theory.
For example, you are married to a latino woman right? because you're 'white' and she's 'latino', the theory says that the mixing of you two leads to the decline of the white population. or if i'm black and my wife is white, then it our children equals less "white" kids. the people who believe in this nonsense seems to attach culture with race, as if being <insert race> equals inherent social and political beliefs. the people who believe it also tend to be part of what's called the 'incel' community, or red pilled. these are the guys who typically whine about not being able to get women to date them or have sex, and blame minorities, feminism, "high value" white guys (Chad's), and immigration as the reason for them being incels.
The issue with the theory is that the base stats used to support it aren't wrong per say, but the context is bat crap crazy. for example, the 2020 census showed a decline in the white/non-hispanic demographic, and so they use that as a justification for believing in it. the issue is that -as you know - there are plenty of white-hispanic americans who do identify as white, so when added together, still represent the vast majority of the american population.
the 2020 census showed the number of mixed race/multiracial americans went up to 11% of the population. which means that their own theory is stupid, because by their own logic everyone is being replaced. think about it: if a black and white person have a child, doesn't that mean the black population has also declined? if an asian and latino have a child, that means that the asian and latino community declined, or any number of combinations.
basically, despite marketing the country as a melting pot, the people who believe in the great replacement don't want race mixing, they want the races to remain separate. 11% of the population identifying as mixed logically means that we as americans can start considering ourselves an ethnicity, not just a nationality.
it's so much more to it, because the people who believe in it can't even define what "white" or "black" is, nor can they ever seem to define what "white" culture is, so you have this illogical mixture of racial nationalism mixed with political nationalism with the goal post constantly moving.
to drive the point home, there's this white nationalist who is growing in popularity and really pushes the conspiracy. Vers, his name is....Nick Fuentes.
a white nationalist named Nick Fuentes. let that sink it, and that should tell you how stupid that conspiracy is.
That's a great explanation. Thanks for taking the time to explain it so thoroughly. It sounds like a crazy theory. Yet another movement that concentrates on hate, bias, and divisiveness. There was a time not too long ago......maybe 10 years ago or so ...where I thought we were making real progress, but things are getting worse and worse again. It's beyond deflating for an idealist like myself.
For half a second, it looked like this would stay friendly ...
LMAO.............this thread was made to throw shade at one side and some of you jumped all over it. Meanwhile, murders that occur far more frequently by the other side are ignored and even justified.
Both "sides" suck. Some of you can't get that through your heads. Instead of trying to mend fences, you burn bridges.
I'm thinking it's time for you to prove your point that more murders are committed by the "OTHER" Side.....
The idea of an “America First Caucus” seems to have hit a snag. A draft of a policy platform leaked last Friday, revealing that members of Congress, led by Georgia Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, were planning to launch a group united by a “common respect for uniquely Anglo-Saxon political traditions.”
Matt Gaetz @mattgaetz . @TuckerCarlson is CORRECT about Replacement Theory as he explains what is happening to America. The ADL is a racist organization.
Hey Swish......I read your post and just took it as a learning experience. I do want to make a somewhat personal connection to one of your paragraphs, if I may?
Quote
The issue with the theory is that the base stats used to support it aren't wrong per say, but the context is bat crap crazy. for example, the 2020 census showed a decline in the white/non-hispanic demographic, and so they use that as a justification for believing in it. the issue is that -as you know - there are plenty of white-hispanic americans who do identify as white, so when added together, still represent the vast majority of the american population.
My wife grew up w/a white man's last name. Dude abandoned the family before it officially began. A real piece of crap. My wife is even older than I am and she faced a lot of discrimination back in the day. However, my wife recently told us that when she was applying for scholarships and then looking for employment later on in anesthesia, she took advantage of that "white" last name and identified herself as "white" on the applications because she feared she would be rejected if she admitted she was Hispanic.
I bring this up because I was hoping we were beyond such prejudice, yet now it seems, there are organized groups out there that want to bring this crap back.
I think I'm on the same page with others when I say that I really don't get how due process has be to such a complicated or drawn out thing in a case like this. This guy is not your common criminal, there nothing nuanced about what he did/didn't do and why. The big risk in 'going medieval on someone's butt' is when you potentially have the wrong person. This guy checked off all the boxes for us.
I think I'm on the same page with others when I say that I really don't get how due process has be to such a complicated or drawn out thing in a case like this. This guy is not your common criminal, there nothing nuanced about what he did/didn't do and why. The big risk in 'going medieval on someone's butt' is when you potentially have the wrong person. This guy checked off all the boxes for us.
I am quoting you for context, not to argue with you specifically.
Let's look at it from a different point of view. Firstly NY state has no death penalty. This means the people have voted for a government that doesn't want a death penalty. Ergo the system should not be using the death penalty in response to a crime because it is obvious that the person is the bad guy.
Next we have the idea that during an active shooter incident, or any other criminal activity, the police see everyone as an issue until they know they are not. This keeps them alive, or is designed to do so. When my sweetie's school had a shooter every student, staff and visitor was required to exit with their hands showing, in a line, and moving slowly. Active shooting incidents are not controlled environments, they don't necessarily have well defined boundaries and entities.
In addition the idea posited upthread that if this guy had been black he would have been dead already. I don't actually believe that but now people want police making this decision when they don't trust the police to make this decision? Police have a procedure they are supposed to follow in regards to lethal use of force, which includes an continued threat. If the suspect gives up and ceases to be a threat then that is outside the allowed use of force. If after giving up the suspect then becomes a threat again that changes the situation. During an event things change, and police are required to reevaluate that and act accordingly.
The above two can become even more of an issue if someone had responded to the threat. If there are calls of shots being fired but one suspect and one person responding how do the police know who is who when showing up? Again, they treat everyone with suspicion until they know otherwise. Someone defending others with their own gun may end up being shot by the police if they "just put the guy down".
I think there is more that can be wrong if due process isn't followed than if it is. In the end this guy, if convicted, will be sent to a state run hotel to live out his days. He may or may not meet jail house justice but the people of NY will get to continue to support him, and that is, in my eyes, a big downside.
While I don't disagree with your post on the whole, I think we've seen enough cases where police have broken protocol that has resulted in the deaths of black Americans that I don't think it's hard to understand why many Americans think if the shooter had been black he would have been killed. Not saying he would have. Just saying I do understand that line of thinking.
I've heard the term "Legacy Americans" used when promoting the replacement theory, implying immigrants are not part of the Legacy of America. The irony of this guy targeting these specific citizens while citing the replacement theory is that these Americans come from families that have been in America for centuries. Possibly here before his own family.
The irony in the concept of "Legacy Americans" is that the only people that have a legitimate claim to use that term are Native Americans.
The more accurate term would be European Americans of the Caucasian race.
Only if you believe in a narrow view of things. Nobody is native to the Americas.... or, we all are. We're all Native Pangeans and the Americas are a fragment of Pangea.
The entire concept of "Native This" and "Native That" and "American Whatever" is based ENTIRELY on the premise of taking a limited view. You want to follow roots far enough back to construct a particular view, but no further lest you shatter your own construct by the fact that we are ALL RELATED.
Yet I see the irony that most of the people who push the great replacement theory believe that all men descended from Adam and Eve. Which as you have pointed out would mean we're all related.
They don’t want whites becoming a minority. I wonder if their fear is based on how they know minorities are treated in this country? Hmmmmm
it's like they don't realize that in America, every individual race is destined to be a minority. probably shouldnt be marketing the country as a melting pot if they dont like that reality.
Hey Swish......I read your post and just took it as a learning experience. I do want to make a somewhat personal connection to one of your paragraphs, if I may?
Quote
The issue with the theory is that the base stats used to support it aren't wrong per say, but the context is bat crap crazy. for example, the 2020 census showed a decline in the white/non-hispanic demographic, and so they use that as a justification for believing in it. the issue is that -as you know - there are plenty of white-hispanic americans who do identify as white, so when added together, still represent the vast majority of the american population.
My wife grew up w/a white man's last name. Dude abandoned the family before it officially began. A real piece of crap. My wife is even older than I am and she faced a lot of discrimination back in the day. However, my wife recently told us that when she was applying for scholarships and then looking for employment later on in anesthesia, she took advantage of that "white" last name and identified herself as "white" on the applications because she feared she would be rejected if she admitted she was Hispanic.
I bring this up because I was hoping we were beyond such prejudice, yet now it seems, there are organized groups out there that want to bring this crap back.
well here's the thing: hispanics are partially white. Spain and Portugal are european countries, after all. and if anybody knows anything about european history, migration and race mixing might as well be their official pastime (including war lol). it's common for hispanic and latinos to pass off as white in america, especially if they have more spanish/ibernian ethnicity in their dna. so a lot of latinos that can pass off as white mark white on their applications to lower the chances of discrimination. Colorism is another aspect of racism not taught in america. think about the "light skin vs dark skin" talks amongst the black community as an example.
that's why if you haven't noticed, the guys who talk about their european heritage in this country never seem to including spanish speaking people? cause they don't mean that part of europe...
odd that there isn't too much outrage about that. he was a retired cop and was working security at the store. he was a "good guy with a gun" who couldn't stop the shooter because the 18 year had body armor on, and paid for trying to stop the shooter with his life.
the US really wants us to live in a real life GTA game. i guess Americans won't get serious about the gun culture until these losers start hitting us with drones like we're in the middle east.
Spanish colonization efforts are overlooked in America.
Much as the same as the slave trade brought blacks to America, and we have the whole one drop of blood theory for purity…
Look up the lyrics of “Brown Sugar” sometime. I am curious as to why it has not been banned in Florida as part of Critical Race Theory. I am sure it irks DeSantos.
odd that there isn't too much outrage about that. he was a retired cop and was working security at the store. he was a "good guy with a gun" who couldn't stop the shooter because the 18 year had body armor on, and paid for trying to stop the shooter with his life.
the US really wants us to live in a real life GTA game. i guess Americans won't get serious about the gun culture until these losers start hitting us with drones like we're in the middle east.
I believe it is illegal ro wear body armor during a violent crime in NY.
There actually has been a lot of good conversation in this thread and there are a variety of topics being discussed. I've enjoyed reading most of the takes. One subject that is continually gets overlooked in this country is mental illness. It's why I chided mac early on. It bugs me when people push mental health issues aside in the name of championing their own political beliefs.
I think the killer's actions are much more deeply rooted in his mental health state than any political preferences he had. I'm not taking a political side here. I think that almost all people have heard the hate that comes from both sides whether it be take our country back or burn it down, etc, etc and we don't act upon those things because we realize that it would be insane to do so.
It's been a long time now, but we have moved the money that was once allocated towards mental health to other areas, such as the nation's drug problem. Additionally, our society has moved way past accountability and instead embraced tolerance and giving our troubled youths more and more accommodations in our schools. As a former educator, I can vouch for many of us--and the students--who encounter troubled youngsters and how they threaten the safety and sanctity of our schools. The school district's psychologists and guidance counselors devise many strategies to combat the actions of the troubled youth and all others are adversely affected while the troubled youth is actually receiving confirmation that his issues are not his fault, but instead, the fault of those around him. It's all great when the powers that be claim they are providing a nurturing environment that is filled w/compassion, tolerance, and understanding. Of course, those children eventually turn into young adults or adults and who is there to help them after they leave school? They are outcasts in society. Can't find a date. Hard to employ. On and on and on...
So you tell me.............what are the troubled youths learning about themselves and what is their perception of the outside world? Then, when these folks commit monstrous crimes against society, we blame political beliefs and guns.
Mental health issues are a huge concern in our country and it is my belief that we are helping in creating these monsters that damage the good of our society. Thus, I feel that our country needs to take a long, hard look at how we deal w/those who are suffering from mental health issues and how we need to re-think strategies to find more effective measures in how to treat our youngsters who are clearly dealing w/those mental health issues.
Funny, I was bopping around Facebook this morning.. Saw a meme that kinda says it all.....Basically it has Tucker Carlson sitting at his TV Desk and he says:
Immigrants MUST NOT replace the original culture and values of this great land!
Standing behind Carlson is an American Indian saying: "I'll help you pack"..
Mental health is certainly an issue. But sadly, as anyone who looks can see, the mentally ill have been motivated, manipulated and indoctrinated by white supremacy over and over again. From an El Paso Walmart to a Pittsburgh synagogue to a woman ran over by a car in Charlottesville to now this mass shooting. That's just a recent tip of the iceberg when it comes to the list.
And I understand how you see it as a systemic problem surrounding the treatment and the way or lack there of that we deal with mental health. I don't disagree with that. Yet these shooters aren't typically from high crime communities. They are usually from middle to upper middle class homes. Their families have the ability and resources to get these kids the help they need. They simply refuse to admit often times that their children have a problem.
And I know you would like to have people ignore the political component. But is that realistic? You had a president who claimed "There are good people on both sides" after white supremacists marched on the University of Virginia campus. Chanting "You will not replace us!" The same exact white replacement theory that motivated this latest mass murderer. You have the highest rated cable news show commentator, Tucker Carlson legitimizing it. You even have the fanatical fringe of elected Republican officials who now espouse it. That's a huge component in this situation that can't be, nor should be swept under the rug.
You see this nation has always had mental health issues. It has always had the mentally weak. It has always had people within in it looking for someone else to blame their own shortcomings or bad lot in life on. That's the very thing these white supremacist groups feed on. They find those same people easy to manipulate, easy to convince and exploit those very things. You can actually use that exact same example on the left. They too can use manipulation to get people to blame their problems on others.
The difference is one side isn't promoting wiping out other races to fix the problem. Pointing out that the way white supremacy recruits and grooms their terrorists really isn't much different than the way Muslim extremists do is something that must have attention brought to it. Hopefully making people well aware of that will help stop at least some people from falling victim to it.
I wanted to edit this to add more context. My response is not to try to discredit or make light of the points you made regarding mental health. They are quite valid. My point is that as with anything else, the fuel you provide anything with is directly connected to the outcome and performance. We see in many mass shootings that such racial motivation is not a component of the events. But we also see that in many of them it is.
This situation has more than one component. Focusing on one of the major components while trying to downplay the other major component isn't an honest way of looking at the problem as a whole.
This situation has more than one component. Focusing on one of the major components while trying to downplay the other major component isn't an honest way of looking at the problem as a whole.
I could challenge you on whether or not the various factors are all major components, but I won't do that right now. Instead, I will say that I have seen multiple political posts that bash the right. I have seen posts about guns. However, no one is talking about mental illness. My beef w/threads like this is that folks are using tragedies to further their own ideals on political parties and issues such as gun control. I realize that this is a Political forum, but if we are ever going to help improve the huge problem of the mentally ill, legislation needs to occur.
Hell, we are still so backwards when it comes to dealing w/the mental illness. We still have people making fun of the mentally ill. mac has even said that I have "a problem" to me twice since I returned. He is insinuating that it's a mental health issue. I personally would not want mac's sympathy if I did have a mental health issue, but the fact that folks are still using mental health issues as form of insulting, belittling, and making fun of other individuals is an indicator of just how backwards American society is on the issue. And each time that folks want to use these issues to further their political rallying cries and ignore the real culprit, we are only compounding the problem.
I have actually mentioned mental illness being one of the components in these mass shootings more than once in this thread.
And I agree with you about the condition of mental health in America. We are both old enough to remember the mental health system being torn apart in America with nothing of substance replacing it. We have both witnessed the results since that time. I'm still not sure how that changes the fact that when you feed people with mental issues violence and hate that's not what you will get in return.
I started off as a Psych major, but switched. I did do an internship at Apple Creek State Hospital a long time ago. It was freaking brutal. And the worst thing is that we don't even have those facilities now, so things are worse. I don't know........I have always had a soft spot in my heart for those w/mental health issues. Also, I actually feel that the way we are dealing w/our troubled youths is nurturing these violent, hateful outbursts. The intentions are good by a lot of the psychologists and guidance counselors in the schools, but it's not effective. I think a lot of these guys are similar to what Swish was talking about in the Replacement Theory post where guys can't get girls because they are so weird. Then, they have employment issues. Shunned by most of their peers. Combine that w/excuses being made for the poor behavior every step of the way and they blame others for their misfortune. They are attracted to these hate groups because they feel as if they are victims. I just think we need to work harder at identifying these people and finding new ways to treat them.
Okay........I'll stop and step-down from my soap box now. I do appreciate your responses instead of just ignoring mine or making fun of them.
I'd say we agree on all points in your post. I don't consider your post standing on a soap box. While I won't get into details I have very real world experiences in dealing with some people close to me that have dealt with severe mental issues that in a couple of cases have ended in suicide. I think it negatively impacts far more families and people than we know. Some even consider getting help a sign of weakness and never address their issues. It's a shame.
Texas..a mass shooting "at a freaking school"...hmm...
I've mentioned this before as a first step, schools must control the entrances to schools with armed guards and metal detectors to ensure kids are safe at school. The cost for such security should be footed by gun organizations, gun manufacturers as well all retailers who sell the guns. Taxpayers SHOULD NOT be forced to foot the bill for this necessary security that is needed to ensure the protection of students, teachers and school staff.
All schools should be required to provide a safe environment at school and do all they can to protect students from some gun toting idiot looking to just kill innocent school kids.
Just a first step...a lot more work needs to be done concerning guns...jmo, mac
Texas..a mass shooting "at a freaking school"...hmm...
I've mentioned this before as a first step, schools must control the entrances to schools with armed guards and metal detectors to ensure kids are safe at school. The cost for such security should be footed by gun organizations, gun manufacturers as well all retailers who sell the guns. Taxpayers SHOULD NOT be forced to foot the bill for this necessary security that is needed to ensure the protection of students, teachers and school staff.
All schools should be required to provide a safe environment at school and do all they can to protect students from some gun toting idiot looking to just kill innocent school kids.
Just a first step...a lot more work needs to be done concerning guns...jmo, mac
How 'bout we just drop the political rhetoric and get something done.
There are 130,000 public schools. Each could be fortified for under 50G. That's 6.5B, we write more pork into every bill that hits the floor. Will you pitch in 20 bucks? If not, I got your back.
I spent the morning with my 6 month old Great Granddaughter and when I got home I heard about the massacre of 14 innocent children and 1 teacher who went o school today not knowing this was going to happen. I began to think of how devastated these families are tonight, I also have a 14 year old Grandson still in school, I cannot imagine to pain and hurt I would be feeling tonight if it were one of my Grandchildren, these children were babies, 7-8-9 years old. We all have Children, Grandchildren, nephews, nieces, or maybe our wife or husband is a teacher, folks we are living in an evil world and what ever you may believe in these families need our prayers tonight, they need the peace and comfort that only Jesus Christ can give them, I'm not preaching just asking you to search your hearts and pray for these families and our own ... God Bless You
I'm really sick of the left and that is why I left them. mac posts the Supermarket thread and w/in about 4-5 posts, we had cries from the left about not allowing right wingers like Tucker Carlson or whatever his name is not being allowed to give his opinions and about white supremacists. Now, w/in a couple of posts where the shooter is apparently a minority, we hear about guns. It's always the fault of the right according to those on the left.
I'm sure if the demographics of this board was more right than left, than the talk would have already started about securing our borders.
I see a common denominator........hate and bias fuels most of the opinions that ooze like a seeping septic system from supporters of both parties. Perhaps we might want to consider spreading so much hate and become a more tolerant and understanding society?
Makes me sick! Using the death of 14 children as a political platform.
With the political BS out of my way.........please allow me to say this. I taught for a long time. Mainly high school and middle school. However, when I moved to SC, I taught 5th graders for 9 years and 4th graders for 1 year. I loved 5th graders. They tried hard. Wanted to please. Weren't beaten down by the system yet. Respectful, for the most part. Eager to learn for the most part. Enthusiastic. Innocent for the most part. Vulnerable.
I recall how often we practiced lock downs. I allowed the class to develop a strategy of where we would huddle together inside the classroom. Windows were a huge consideration as was the doorway. The kids were great but what sticks w/me the most......and I want y'all to hear this..... even during routine lockdowns, the fear amongst my students was palatable. Just the thought that the school might be invaded and/or that some of them might be shot absolutely terrified them.
These are our children. Will y'all please stop the political manipulations and spend some time grieving for these poor children and their families. I cannot imagine having one of my children taken from me when they were so young. I get that we want to try and do more to protect them, but can y'all show some humanity?
This was too much for me today. I think I’ve just honestly given up hope. People treat this country like they are sports fans. They pick a side and ignore every ugly and destructive element about their “team”.
How do we do that when little children are being shot? When babies can’t be fed? When older people are gunned down just shopping for groceries? And on and on and on….
After the last many years of watching how all parties and their followers have behaved, I cannot imagine a country or a world where anything gets resolved or we become in any way united. It’s sickening, and where I used to feel hope, I no longer do.
We have created this nightmare. We are the monster.
This is not hyperbole anymore. It is a sad reality.
Why cant schools have metal detectors? We can keep stadiums safe but not schools?
They can. I almost responded to tasty earlier when he mentioned that and armed guards. I just want all to consider this.
I worked in E. Cleveland at an Alternative School where kids who were kicked out of E. Cleveland schools could attend. We also had some other kids whose parents wanted them out of E. Cleveland schools. For those that do not know, E. Cleveland schools were the roughest of the rough and to get kicked out of them took some doing.
A ton of our kids had gang affiliations. Thus, we had metal detectors, armed guards, dogs that sniffed the students as they entered and their lockers during the school day. It was necessary due to the circumstances. On the flip side, it seemed more like a prison than a place of learning. That's a terrible environment to endure. It's the opposite of nurturing. Some of us teachers--not all--really worked hard to support the kids and provide a nurturing environment, but most of the teachers sucked. Not many wanted to be there. I did want to be there. I left a middle school job in the school system w/the highest income per capita in the entire state to take a job in the worst locale I could possibly find in my driving distance. And I drove over an hour each way to teach there. I arrived before other teachers and stayed later despite the drive. The rewards were great and I still have all the letters from my students to pick me up when I am down, but damn Eve........it was so stressful.
Do we want our children to attend schools where there are metal detectors, guns, and police dogs? Is that a nurturing environment? I can tell you that it was so freaking depressing for the students and staff to work in that environment. A huge part of my efforts was to negate the negativity of the school's environment.
I really don't have the answers. I mean........I wish w/all my heart that folks would stop w/all this hate. Day in and day out we are subjected to hateful messages from both sides. Fascists. Libtards. Hitler comparisons. Feminazis. We are our own worst enemy because we plant seeds of hate and then are surprised when the grown plant grows branches of hate and ultimately....violence.
Thus, we may have to turn to armed guards, metal detectors, police dogs, etc to protect our children because our adults are too immature to handle differences like adults and in return, our children must suffer the sins of their fathers and mothers. Just imagine being a child who is still in single digits and having to enter schools w/armed guards and metal detectors. It reads almost like one of those futuristic novels from back in the day where society has become completely manufactured, sterile, and devoid of compassion.
Texas..a mass shooting "at a freaking school"...hmm...
I've mentioned this before as a first step, schools must control the entrances to schools with armed guards and metal detectors to ensure kids are safe at school. The cost for such security should be footed by gun organizations, gun manufacturers as well all retailers who sell the guns. Taxpayers SHOULD NOT be forced to foot the bill for this necessary security that is needed to ensure the protection of students, teachers and school staff.
All schools should be required to provide a safe environment at school and do all they can to protect students from some gun toting idiot looking to just kill innocent school kids.
Just a first step...a lot more work needs to be done concerning guns...jmo, mac
How 'bout we just drop the political rhetoric and get something done.
There are 130,000 public schools. Each could be fortified for under 50G. That's 6.5B, we write more pork into every bill that hits the floor. Will you pitch in 20 bucks? If not, I got your back.
ASSIGNING RESPONSIBILITY "IS NOT POLITICAL"!
Not a damn thing political about what I wrote either...unless some are grasping for anything to avoid addressing the problem and focusing on making students safe while at school.
Citizens and taxpayers are already paying taxes to support their schools and help provide as safe of an environment as they can afford...and "obviously" its still is not enough security to keep students safe while at school and insure their safety from gun violence while at school.
Understand, I have no way of knowing the political affiliation of any gun organization or the owner/ceo of a gun manufacturer or the owners of retail businesses that sell guns. I know there are some who will attempt to avoid the issue of school safety and try to frame any idea that might change the current approach of DOING NOTHING by claiming that any idea mentioned is political.
FOR THE RECORD...I've been a near lifelong gun owner as a registered Republican and a Democrat...so you can take your political accusations and park them in an appropriate place.
Those who seem be suggesting that it should be the taxpayers and citizens are the folks who should be held responsible for providing increased security for their school kids...which one of you has the guts to stand before the parents of these dead kids and tell them they need to foot the bill to provide more safety at their school to protect their kids from getting shot?
What is wrong with asking the gun industry (all levels) to become involved in and helping to provide the needed security to make schools safe..?
Maybe you would prefer that all gun manufactures be sued out of existence like Remington Arms..?
I would rather see the gun industry at all levels, become involved in "solutions" to the gun violence issue.
Too soon for this, I know. What happened is a tragedy, of course.
With that said, are you in favor of holding car manufacturers liable for drunk driving deaths?
I don't know how this school was, but area schools around here are locked down, daily. to get in, you have to ring, get a photograph (like a ring door bell kind of thing), then you get access to an entry area, where you again have to be allowed in.
This kind of stuff can and does happen anywhere, everywhere. I would be all in favor of armed police at every school. Again, around here, in poor rural corn field n.w. Ohio, we have SRO's. School Resource Officers - in just about every building.
Now, a bad person with evil intent could break down a back door, of course. I don't have the answers, obviously. No one does, obviously. School shootings, of innocent (in this case) pre teens is a devastating thing.
While we are on the subject of placing blame........and Eve, I am so sorry and I apologize ahead of time.......but
How about we stop w/all the violent video games that glorify killing and discount the tragedy of death?
How about we stop glorifying all the killing that dominates the movies in this era. I try and find good movies and almost all of them are these stupid action flicks that involve violence and/or horror movies that do the same.
Hey kids, let's watch people killing one another and let me buy you this video game where you get to shoot other people.
We can all talk about it until we're blue in the face. Nothing will happen this time either. There will be a bunch of blah blah out of both sides, then dems will wanted to ban certain guns and GOPers will say no. Same ole same ole... I don't think they even look at the scenes anymore. If we really wanted to get something done, we should lockem all in a room and tell them they can't leave until it's resolved to the American peoples satisfaction. I wasn't even going to comment. Fighting an enemy that hides like a coward when things heat up has just sucked the soul out of me.
And to the good Rs on here, I'm sorry for all the things that will be said about you all in the next 24-72 hours. We don't need to take away hunting guns or bad mouth gun owners in general. But we need to stop letting these maniacs kill kids in schools.
Agree with that... raise the age to 21... cut out the private sales and loop holes... hire ex-military as guards for the schools... and improve mental health for teens and young adults...
Biden should order a squad of National Guard to every school in America to work rotations until Congress acts. One on every entrance at anytime kids are on the premises. America wouldn't let that stand long, but they will do nothing about these kids being killed.
For the first 5 months of this year, the US has averaged 10 mass shootings per week. More than (1) per day. A mass shooting is a shooting where there are 4 or more victims.
It wouldnt be too hard to set up a metal dector and a security guard at schools. Every town has park police. Shouldnt be too hard to hire some school police.
School shootings and other mass killings have been a part of our society since before our country was founded.
Banning all or some types of guns will not keep shootings from happening. At this point, anyone can 3D print one. Iit's pretty easy to get an illegal gun on any street corner in the ghetto along with your choice of illegal drugs or other illegal things. Also, if guns are banned people will likely go back to doing more school bombings which have also been happening since the 1880's.
Sadly, I am not sure anyone will ever solve mass killings unless we start eliminating evil people before they are born... which is impossible at this point.
It wouldnt be too hard to set up a metal dector and a security guard at schools. Every town has park police. Shouldnt be too hard to hire some school police.
A fully installed metal detector would probably average about 10-15k per door.
We used to have one officer at the front door at the beginning of the school day and another one out at the street directing traffic entering the school grounds. We now only have one SRO (we are getting less money from the state-another problem) and we have to get buzzed in through the outside door and stay in the vestibule until the school knows what we are here for and then we can go into the office and sign in.
But even with a school guard and a metal detector. Money is tight in schools and we probably have about 16 different doors that would have to either be locked down or have a detector. We have had a school resource officer since my kids were in kindergarten. Our schools are all three levels in three different wings in a 208,000 square foot building. If there is a school resource officer in the high school office and someone starts shooting in the other side of the building in one of the other wings or upstairs, it would take a while to get to where the shooter is. I understand that there would be a county wide response. But a hell of a lot of damage could happen anyways.
CNN said something tonight that these shootings alot of times only take 4-6 minutes from when it starts until when the shooter is dead or in custody. A lot of lives are changed in that 4-6 minutes.
Why cant schools have metal detectors? We can keep stadiums safe but not schools?
Stadiums have long lines and a traffic jam of people trying to pass through said metal detectors. However, take for example, Browns stadium on game day, there is a massive police presence with SWAT, snipers atop buildings, K-9s, etc., to quickly put down a threat. Sports teams can afford this massive security presence.
Add metal detectors to a large school and have that same slow process of entry and a clogged traffic jam of students waiting outside when they all arrive at nearly the same time and you have sitting ducks for these opportunistic lunatics.
Not to mention poor school districts cannot afford the additional security and the wealthier districts will not want their kids walking into an environment that seems more like a prison than an inviting place of learning.
Just excuses... I think if you let the people vote, most parents are 100% voting for security at school... metal detectors I don't know if they'd be helpful, but 100% I want former military at my sons' school... I'd happily welcome a tax increase for that...
School shootings and other mass killings have been a part of our society since before our country was founded.
Banning all or some types of guns will not keep shootings from happening. At this point, anyone can 3D print one. Iit's pretty easy to get an illegal gun on any street corner in the ghetto along with your choice of illegal drugs or other illegal things. Also, if guns are banned people will likely go back to doing more school bombings which have also been happening since the 1880's.
Sadly, I am not sure anyone will ever solve mass killings unless we start eliminating evil people before they are born... which is impossible at this point.
Lol, school shootings and other mass killings have been part of our society since before our country was founded
It takes a special kind of soulless sub human to make such a statement, and I prefer not to get banned for commenting further.
Why cant schools have metal detectors? We can keep stadiums safe but not schools?
Stadiums have long lines and a traffic jam of people trying to pass through said metal detectors. However, take for example, Browns stadium on game day, there is a massive police presence with SWAT, snipers atop buildings, K-9s, etc., to quickly put down a threat. Sports teams can afford this massive security presence.
Add metal detectors to a large school and have that same slow process of entry and a clogged traffic jam of students waiting outside when they all arrive at nearly the same time and you have sitting ducks for these opportunistic lunatics.
Not to mention poor school districts cannot afford the additional security and the wealthier districts will not want their kids walking into an environment that seems more like a prison than an inviting place of learning.
Schools arent trying to admit 60K plus people. Even at Philips Arena for a Hawks game, capacity is about 16K and you can walk right through security, no waiting. Its not hard to secure schools.
School shootings and other mass killings have been a part of our society since before our country was founded.
Banning all or some types of guns will not keep shootings from happening. At this point, anyone can 3D print one. Iit's pretty easy to get an illegal gun on any street corner in the ghetto along with your choice of illegal drugs or other illegal things. Also, if guns are banned people will likely go back to doing more school bombings which have also been happening since the 1880's.
Sadly, I am not sure anyone will ever solve mass killings unless we start eliminating evil people before they are born... which is impossible at this point.
Lol, school shootings and other mass killings have been part of our society since before our country was founded
It takes a special kind of soulless sub human to make such a statement, and I prefer not to get banned for commenting further.
I would prefer the bombs, than you very much.
Um. What? I'm just speaking from facts and our history.
- Read about bath township school bombing in Michigan. 45 dead 58 injured.
What percentage of schools in this country have security? <3% ? I feel 3% is generous
Sandy Hook didnt have security. This school today didnt have security.
What percentage of schools with security have mass shootings? 0% ?
UCISD's website states that the district has "proponents to curb and/or eliminate" elements of" violence, vandalism, disruptions and fear" in its schools to "provide a safe and secure environment for all."
Those proponents include four officers, including a chief, a detective and two officers within the school district; partnerships with local law enforcement agencies; security staff that patrols door entrances and parking lots at secondary campuses; case managers and social workers on UCISD campuses; licensed counselors; threat assessment teams; social media threat monitoring; a visitor management security system; canine detection services; motion detectors and alarm systems; perimeter fencing at Robb and other schools; security vestibules and outside buzz-in systems; security cameras; a locked classroom door policy; staff and student training; and a threat reporting system.
In the 2017–18 school year, 95 percent of public schools reported that they controlled access to school buildings by locking or monitoring doors during school hours. Other safety and security measures reported by public schools included the use of security cameras to monitor the school (83 percent), a requirement that faculty and staff wear badges or picture IDs (70 percent),
In 2019, about 86 percent of students ages 12–18 reported observing one or more security cameras to monitor their school, and 75 percent of students reported the presence of security guards or assigned police officers.
What percentage of schools in this country have security? <3% ? I feel 3% is generous
Sandy Hook didnt have security. This school today didnt have security.
What percentage of schools with security have mass shootings? 0% ?
UCISD's website states that the district has "proponents to curb and/or eliminate" elements of" violence, vandalism, disruptions and fear" in its schools to "provide a safe and secure environment for all."
Those proponents include four officers, including a chief, a detective and two officers within the school district; partnerships with local law enforcement agencies; security staff that patrols door entrances and parking lots at secondary campuses; case managers and social workers on UCISD campuses; licensed counselors; threat assessment teams; social media threat monitoring; a visitor management security system; canine detection services; motion detectors and alarm systems; perimeter fencing at Robb and other schools; security vestibules and outside buzz-in systems; security cameras; a locked classroom door policy; staff and student training; and a threat reporting system.
In the 2017–18 school year, 95 percent of public schools reported that they controlled access to school buildings by locking or monitoring doors during school hours. Other safety and security measures reported by public schools included the use of security cameras to monitor the school (83 percent), a requirement that faculty and staff wear badges or picture IDs (70 percent),
In 2019, about 86 percent of students ages 12–18 reported observing one or more security cameras to monitor their school, and 75 percent of students reported the presence of security guards or assigned police officers.
Clearly it wasnt enough if they allowed a person loaded with guns to walk in. A city can have several schools. Security cameras dont really stop anyone. Why not a dedicated officer and metal detector.
What percentage of schools in this country have security? <3% ? I feel 3% is generous
Sandy Hook didnt have security. This school today didnt have security.
What percentage of schools with security have mass shootings? 0% ?[/quote]
UCISD's website states that the district has "proponents to curb and/or eliminate" elements of" violence, vandalism, disruptions and fear" in its schools to "provide a safe and secure environment for all."
Those proponents include four officers, including a chief, a detective and two officers within the school district; partnerships with local law enforcement agencies; security staff that patrols door entrances and parking lots at secondary campuses; case managers and social workers on UCISD campuses; licensed counselors; threat assessment teams; social media threat monitoring; a visitor management security system; canine detection services; motion detectors and alarm systems; perimeter fencing at Robb and other schools; security vestibules and outside buzz-in systems; security cameras; a locked classroom door policy; staff and student training; and a threat reporting system.
In the 2017–18 school year, 95 percent of public schools reported that they controlled access to school buildings by locking or monitoring doors during school hours. Other safety and security measures reported by public schools included the use of security cameras to monitor the school (83 percent), a requirement that faculty and staff wear badges or picture IDs (70 percent),
In 2019, about 86 percent of students ages 12–18 reported observing one or more security cameras to monitor their school, and 75 percent of students reported the presence of security guards or assigned police officers.[/quote]
Clearly it wasnt enough if they allowed a person loaded with guns to walk in. A city can have several schools. Security cameras dont really stop anyone. Why not a dedicated officer and metal detector.[/quote]
Good question. Idk. I hope we can get there. Granted, we can't even keep drugs or weapons out of a federally secured prison. So, my expectations are not crazy high.
Law enforcement officers “engaged” the suspect when they saw him emerge from his crashed vehicle carrying a rifle and a handgun. But the gunman nevertheless managed to charge into the school building and open fire, Texas department of public safety (DPS) Sgt Erick Estrada said on CNN.
212 mass shootings countrywide so far this year. When is the country going to get serious and do whatever is needed to stop/reduce this senseless violence? Politicians are being politicians....accomplishing virtually nothing because they don't want to lose votes by offending someone. Get off your butts and make the major changes long overdue to the 2nd Amendment. Whatever it takes people....
I am not arguing against changing some laws and also doing more to make our schools more secure, but as a former teacher I know just how hard it would be to ever stop a determined murderer. I'd say next to impossible.
Thus, I ask you all if any of you have thought about how we might want to concentrate more on creating an environment that produces fewer murderers? Just as importantly, finding ways at identifying those who are prone to such violence at an earlier age and taking steps to deal w/those people. As I said earlier, most teachers and students know which kids are exhibiting signs of being anti-social and dangerous.
For clarification purposes, I am not saying to do what I suggested in isolation. If we want tougher laws and more security than let's go w/it. But again, I don't think those two actions will ever stop a determined killer. I'd rather stop them before they ever develop.
the RIP comments have already been stated, so I might as well get be reckless.....
boy, lot more comments and outrage around the country over this shooting than the one in buffalo. and why am i not surprised the latino shooter is dead while the white shooter was arrested.
regardless, i'm tired of the mental health excuses. these clowns know exactly what they're doing, regardless of demographic or upbringing.
212 mass shootings countrywide so far this year. When is the country going to get serious and do whatever is needed to stop/reduce this senseless violence? Politicians are being politicians....accomplishing virtually nothing because they don't want to lose votes by offending someone. Get off your butts and make the major changes long overdue to the 2nd Amendment. Whatever it takes people....
Nothing will happen because the politicians care more about the money the NRA is putting in their pockets than the lives of our children. So much for being pro life.
I'm really sick of the left and that is why I left them. mac posts the Supermarket thread and w/in about 4-5 posts, we had cries from the left about not allowing right wingers like Tucker Carlson or whatever his name is not being allowed to give his opinions and about white supremacists. Now, w/in a couple of posts where the shooter is apparently a minority, we hear about guns. It's always the fault of the right according to those on the left.
I'm sure if the demographics of this board was more right than left, than the talk would have already started about securing our borders.
I see a common denominator........hate and bias fuels most of the opinions that ooze like a seeping septic system from supporters of both parties. Perhaps we might want to consider spreading so much hate and become a more tolerant and understanding society?
Makes me sick! Using the death of 14 children as a political platform.
You are so dead set pointing out the left.... why don't you talk about this..
It's heartbreaking. It's sickening. It's a pattern of sustained consequences as a result of our situation today with guns, the ease of access to guns by literally anyone (legal or otherwise) and our gun laws.
I don't have a solution - all I know is that this is going to continue to happen unless we do something to change it. We may make changes and it may still happen. We may make changes and it may prevent some shootings and we will never know or be able to quantify that. With the way people play politics it's virtually an unwinnable, unsolvable situation. At the end of the day many would prefer to live with these consequences than to even entertain discussion on reviewing gun laws. And while I don't think sending children off to schools that resemble heavily guarded institutions, barricaded in for their protection - I'd try that no matter how difficult the challenge - again, it may save lives and be hard to determine or count the successes while some shootings still occur ... but damn not doing anything at all is where all the talking in circles leads us.
Vers - I get your point that it's extremely difficult to protect the kids 100% in schools with metal protectors and armed police etc ... but to pass on that extreme challenge and focus on the Utopian ideal of changing society to an extent where these events don't happen seems to be aiming for what is most definitely impossible while passing on what is merely 'nearly' impossible.
Just to be clear. I am all for changing laws to reduce gun violence. I am also in favor of trying to make sure that schools more secure. I don't want those things to get lost in my message of trying to improve our environment that continues to birth and nurture violent citizens and to change the way we deal w/those who are emotionally disturbed. I know this sounds harsh, but we have to stop coddling the social misfits and get them the true help they need rather than blaming everyone else around them for their issues.
Law enforcement officers “engaged” the suspect when they saw him emerge from his crashed vehicle carrying a rifle and a handgun. But the gunman nevertheless managed to charge into the school building and open fire, Texas department of public safety (DPS) Sgt Erick Estrada said on CNN.
I guess I'm just catching up. So the shooter was engaged by police outside the school, but entered the school after outgunning/overpowering police?
Look, I'm very much a 2A fan, but that previous statement is a MASSIVE problem.
Law enforcement officers “engaged” the suspect when they saw him emerge from his crashed vehicle carrying a rifle and a handgun. But the gunman nevertheless managed to charge into the school building and open fire, Texas department of public safety (DPS) Sgt Erick Estrada said on CNN.
I guess I'm just catching up. So the shooter was engaged by police outside the school, but entered the school after outgunning/overpowering police?
Look, I'm very much a 2A fan, but that previous statement is a MASSIVE problem.
Then he crashed his car outside of the school and emerged with an AR-15-style rifle, according to multiple law enforcement sources. Authorities have recovered the rifle, body armor the suspect was wearing and numerous magazines, sources said.
The suspect was immediately engaged outside the building as he approached the school by a Uvalde Independent School District police officer, who was shot by the suspect, the sources said.
After that, the suspect entered the school and allegedly opened fire, killing 18 students, who were mainly third- and fourth-graders, as well as one teacher, the sources said.
There, he traded gunfire with Uvalde ISD officer and Border Patrol Tactical Unit agents, a number of whom have children who attend the school, according to the sources. The Border Patrol agents responded to a law enforcement request for assistance.
Dems will do anything to stop them... translation banning /limiting guns. Rs won't do a thing for fear of losing the gun lobby money. And America will be back to sleep by tomorrow morning and this will start fading fast just like all the others before it.
Time for the next Elon to drop robocop anti school shooter version 1.0., tech is about the only way we'll move forward from these dark scenes. But even then, that tech must be funded and installed. What a dystopian future, schools with AI automated defense systems that can identify and kill a shooter before the first round can be fired. Kids walking past it everyday like it's just a thing... We've already seen a lot of tech things being tried from classroom door bars and reinforced doors to turret style ceiling mounted defense (think it was a proposal, not real). And parents getting kid's bulletproof backpacks.
Read that again and let it sink in... kid's bulletproof backpacks.
Just like everyone else, I want it to stop, but I don't see that happening with this government and political quagmire.
Agree with that... raise the age to 21... cut out the private sales and loop holes... hire ex-military as guards for the schools... and improve mental health for teens and young adults...
I will say it seems crazy to me that you can't even buy a drink of alcohol until you're 21 because society says you're not responsible enough to handle it, but at the same time they think you are responsible enough to handle buying firearms with 30 round magazines that have the power to kill multiple people in a matter of seconds. But then how else could the government excuse 18 year old kids form entering the military if they did that?
Closing the gun loopholes is something I think is a smart and useful way of stopping convicted felons from easily purchasing firearms and is common sense. But if you notice, most of these school shooters are buying their guns legally at gun stores. Either that or getting them from their homes. So as it pertains to stopping school shooting per say, I don't think there would be any real impact. While there might be an example of it, I can't think of an instance where a a mass school shooter has purchased the weapon they used through such a loophole.
The mental health aspect is a great idea. But that would mean that someone would have to recognize it and those who need help it would get it. We already have teachers and administrators trying to dictate which children should be medicated and they have no medical degree. We have far too many parents who will tell you, "Johnny is a good boy and there's nothing wrong with him" no matter what little Johnny does. So yes, the mental health aspect will help for when those kids that might shoot up a school get the help they need before they do shoot up a school.
As far as armed guards in schools, once you have an active shooter in your school you have already lost the battle. At that point all you can possibly hope for is to try and keep the body count down. I can't imagine how armed men walking around a school would impact the learning environment but it certainly wouldn't be good. The objective should be to stop them from entering the school, not reacting after they do by adding more active shooters into the mix with even more projectiles flying in different directions where hundreds of children are.
As it pertains to violent movies and video games. When I was growing up video games like they have today weren't around. But we watched westerns and gangster movies with all the violence one could handle. Yet nothing of this magnitude was happening on a regular basis. We watched both the gangsters and the "G Men" mowing people down with Tommy guns. I don't buy that violent movies and video games are responsible.
Those promoting stopping the sell of what they call "assault rifles" isn't the answer either. Does it appear to be the gun of choice in these mass shooting? Yes it does. But if those rifles weren't available they would just substitute it with another gun. I'll give you an example. The last pistol I purchased was a 9mm. It has a 19 shot capacity magazine. There are three magazines. That's a total of 57 rounds. I can change out a magazine in a matter of a few seconds easily. So how would that pistol not just as easily have accomplished the same thing as these two rifles the shooter used in Texas? The answer is it easily could have.
We have more guns in circulation in our country than we have people. It's too late to try and use restrictions on firearms as a legitimate answer to this problem.
Metal detectors at every entrance to every school would be a great place to start. Will it stop every school shooting? Who knows, maybe not. But for the most part it would stop many of them. The detectors would have to be placed in a way you would have to pass through them before being granted access into the building. Maybe between two set of doors. But certainly pro active measures must be taken. This would not require having cops inside of schools. It would not require you arm teachers. The last thing we need to do is add more guns being fired with even more projectiles flying through the air in buildings full of children. The last thing we need to do is make the inside of our schools looking more like a prison than a school.
Thoughts and prayers aren't enough. If they were these shooting would have already ended long ago. Taking assault rifles off the shelf won't work. There are many other firearms with similar capacities.
The go to lines from both sides of politics are as per usual not going to work and won't address the problem. The best thing would be for both of them to work together in order to help find common sense solutions. But as per usual we know that's never going to happen because that would mean they would have to admit what they've been saying so far is wrong and a compromise would have to be reached.
If finding the answer was easy it would have already been found.
It's not to blame. What they say is true. The answer isn't in the guns. Only simpletons think that is the answer.
The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue.
Agree with that... raise the age to 21... cut out the private sales and loop holes... hire ex-military as guards for the schools... and improve mental health for teens and young adults...
I will say it seems crazy to me that you can't even buy a drink of alcohol until you're 21 because society says you're not responsible enough to handle it, but at the same time they think you are responsible enough to handle buying firearms with 30 round magazines that have the power to kill multiple people in a matter of seconds. But then how else could the government excuse 18 year old kids form entering the military if they did that?
Supposedly one cannot buy alcohol until 21 is a "developmental" issue. You are still growing and maturing. That said I am in favor of allowing full adulthood at 18 and allowing alcohol purchases. You can enlist yourself in the army and go get blowed up, you should be able to drink... and buy arms.
I am not a fan of the current adulthood with training wheels system we have.
It's not to blame. What they say is true. The answer isn't in the guns. Only simpletons think that is the answer.
The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue.
Yes - we should be more Godly - like they are in Europe....
as I continue to think about this terrible act and how we can solve it.... the only thing that comes to mind is blaming a gun is about as futile as blaming a rope. We need to spend much more time educating, showing support, and stopping the various types of media from spreading so much hate and violence. We have made so much progress in treating other with equality and respect. But, we have so much further to go.
I am not a fan of the current adulthood with training wheels system we have.
I'm not a fan of it either. But as we've seen most of these mass school shooters are under 21. That's the thing about training wheels. When you don't use them you're the only one that has the pain of learning without them inflicted upon you when you fall. In these school shooting incidents, it's several families and friends that the pain is inflicted upon and ending the life of several children. So this isn't anything like training wheels.
You say training. it would appear these shooters know how to use a gun. Do we need more laws, ya know, maybe the next gun law will be the one that people understand? Like, murder is wrong, and taking a gun into a school is wrong, etc etc etc.
Maybe charging a gun registration for legal owners? Oh, wait, that only hurts the people that do own guns lawfully. Criminals and murderers don't really obey the law.
What is you answer?
I can see having armed guards - but as we've seen, not even that works all the time.......... I don't have the answer. Do you?
Maybe charging a gun registration for legal owners? Oh, wait, that only hurts the people that do own guns lawfully. Criminals and murderers don't really obey the law.
Nearly all of the guns used in mass shootings have been purchased legally... I actually do think it would be somewhat difficult for an 18yo antisocial teenager to get in contact with the organized crime components that traffic stolen weapons.
One has nothing to do with the other. I posted my answer previously in the other thread. Try reading that thread.
For one have a metal detector placed between two sets of doors at every entry. Have the second set of doors locked so you will not be given entry until you clear that metal detector That way you can't actually enter the school itself unless you're cleared by a metal detector.
The second which I didn't point out in my post in the other thread is that the great majority of these school shooters are between the ages of 18-20 and actually buy their guns legally. You're not even legally allowed to buy alcohol until you're 21 in this country. Raising the age to 21 to buy firearms seems like a reasonable way to help slow these incidents down.
Do I think either of those things will stop them completely? No I don't. But at some point you have to slow down the bleeding.
There is a much longer explanation as to what I think will help, won't help and why posted posted in the other school shooting thread if you're actually interested. For some reason I don't think that's actually your motivation.
Stopping all school shootings is not something that can be easily answered. If it were they would have been stopped long ago. But there are obvious ways to help reduce their frequency.
Everybody should be issued one gun and one bullet at birth for personal protection. That’s it, one bullet.
And really…..Once again, multiple good guys with guns couldn’t stop one bad guy with a gun before killing 20+ innocent people. Disproving that talking point from the right. And mental health can’t be an issue in this case considering this 18 year old passed 3 background checks. Disproving another GOP talking point in this case.
Agree with that... raise the age to 21... cut out the private sales and loop holes... hire ex-military as guards for the schools... and improve mental health for teens and young adults...
I will say it seems crazy to me that you can't even buy a drink of alcohol until you're 21 because society says you're not responsible enough to handle it, but at the same time they think you are responsible enough to handle buying firearms with 30 round magazines that have the power to kill multiple people in a matter of seconds. But then how else could the government excuse 18 year old kids form entering the military if they did that?
Supposedly one cannot buy alcohol until 21 is a "developmental" issue. You are still growing and maturing. That said I am in favor of allowing full adulthood at 18 and allowing alcohol purchases. You can enlist yourself in the army and go get blowed up, you should be able to drink... and buy arms.
I am not a fan of the current adulthood with training wheels system we have.
If alcohol was prohibited until it no longer effects brain development then the drinking age would be 25.
Morality is not something decided by a belief or lack of belief in God. If so they would support many things they refuse to support now. I mean look at all the people that read the Bible and then look at how many different religions we have. Even they can't agree on what the bible actually says or teaches. Compassion and love has more to do with who you are than your belief system.
It's not to blame. What they say is true. The answer isn't in the guns. Only simpletons think that is the answer.
The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue.
The USA is in a unique situation Regards our constitution and rights, the gun lobby et al
But to think the problem has nothing at all to do with guns, how many there are, how easy it is for anyone to get them is wrong. You might touch on some important issues but any and every statistic Como paring gun violence and deaths in the USA and the rest of the world highlights the UDAs gun culture is definitely part of the problem. Other nations have all of the USAs social problems. They have video games with violence and the same Hollywood films glamorizing violence and conflict exist everywhere else. But we stand alone with the depth and numbers.
Anyone talking about curtailing guns, the NRA, firearm manufacturers, or changing the 2nd amendment isn't going to get anywhere because none of those things is the right solution.
Mental health is the right solution. Why isn't anyone talking about that? Why isn't anyone talking about the suicide rate among men? The right question to be asking is, "what's wrong with these people?"
Parenting and having a loving family unit that cares about you goes a long way and could have prevented a lot of these shootings. People need to be more introspective in their kids' lives and ask the right questions, even the ones you're not exactly supposed to ask. The environment fostered should be one of openness, communication, and welcoming.
But if that were as simple as you stated then why is the se trend not seen everywhere to a greater or lesser extent. You raise important issues that are all valid, but leaping to the conclusion the issue in the USA has nothing at all to do with our gun culture seems improbable and not what world data indicates.
Sorry you are dealing w/this peen. It's what the mob does. One guy attacks and then a bunch of like-minded people take turns taking shots. Bullies or hyenas, take your pick.
I am not a fan of the current adulthood with training wheels system we have.
I'm not a fan of it either. But as we've seen most of these mass school shooters are under 21. That's the thing about training wheels. When you don't use them you're the only one that has the pain of learning without them inflicted upon you when you fall. In these school shooting incidents, it's several families and friends that the pain is inflicted upon and ending the life of several children. So this isn't anything like training wheels.
I am not entirely sure using only school shootings is really any indication of a problem. I care about all murders, not just cherry picked dramatic acts.
Of course finding any real information would likely involve private data collection as most analysis available are likely biased in their treatment of the facts. The graphic upthread, for instance, shows deaths to children but they use ages up to 24 years old, which are adults.
Everyone wants to hide their agendas behind numbers and statistics, cherry picking and exaggerating numbers to best benefit their intended goal.
I know I said that I wish the Buffalo murderer would have been shot and killed by police, but I kinda wish this Texas murderer could have been apprehended. It's not like he shot up his high school after he murdered his grandmother. He went to an Elementary school instead. Why? I heard he bought guns earlier this month at Dick's or someplace like that, so he must have been planning it. Wonder what the motivation was? I can't wrap my head around it.
Sorry you are dealing w/this peen. It's what the mob does. One guy attacks and then a bunch of like-minded people take turns taking shots. Bullies or hyenas, take your pick.
AMEN. (I'm sure some will be butthurt with that as well)
The dude says this...
"The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue."
...which couldn't be any more true, and people attack as if he's a religious fanatic.
Morality is not something decided by a belief or lack of belief in God. If so they would support many things they refuse to support now. I mean look at all the people that read the Bible and then look at how many different religions we have. Even they can't agree on what the bible actually says or teaches. Compassion and love has more to do with who you are than your belief system.
I agree. I am not trying to say the two have to be tied together...I mentioned God for those who believe and use religious teaching to guide their way, I mentioned morals for those who may not believe in God but have a moral compass from wherever they find it....understand? Also note, I didn't mention a singular religious book.
It doesn't seem we disagree, but I feel like you are disagreeing with me because you think I mean things I never said.
Apparently the grandmother was going over with a cellular provider about the kids bill and his usage. He got mad about that and shot her in the face.
I hadn't heard what caused that. I also saw he was mad he wasn't graduating, grades I suppose. Just another "I am special" goof ball kid we raised who only knows how to throw a fit when it's pointed out that they aren't all that special.
Man, listening and reading our media today and it's obvious... our politics and political divide in this country is much like arguing with a three-year-old. Stupid to engage and you'll never win. And sadly, it seems like that is all anyone is concerned with... "winning".
Let's argue about gun laws 'til we're blue in the face and see if that stops school shootings. Very little talk of fortifying schools. Yet the same people who know damn well raising the age to buy weapons won't change anything, scream in the aisles that a metal detector won't stop every school shooting. Well no crap. So let's do nothing and just continue to argue.
Schools and grounds must be fortified. Metal detectors at every entrance. Security personnel must be on grounds. Security cameras must be at every entrance (driveways and doors). You need one dude in a seat and one roving, in full communication, both with the ability to lock all doors. If cameras can send me a bill from a toll road in NY state they can damn sure immediately recognize a plate on a car that doesn't belong to a registered parent, vendor or staff member. You don't even need a human manning the camera for the "rover" to be warned of an unregistered vehicle. Local police on site for beginning and ending each school day.
It's not that hard to be proactive, and it likely costs less than what our government has spent on "free masks" over the last three years.
Let's go ahead and argue whether the gun or the person kills people aside from this issue. Not that, or anything else, is the be-all-end-all... but common sense measures concerning the sanctity of students feeling safe in a freaking school need to happen NOW.
It's not to blame. What they say is true. The answer isn't in the guns. Only simpletons think that is the answer.
The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue.
Godless? Hell your god is part of the problem too, all religion is. Morals? Who's morals by what standards? Let me guess, Christian. Respect for life property and authority? Life like the unborn, the girls life ruined with a forced pregnancy, or the kid needlessly slain with an AR? Property, like the things destroyed by senseless wars, cities burned because cops kill blacks, or simply keeping certain elements off your lawn/walk/street/etc. Authority? What authority? Government, God, Moral? And authority means somebody else is in charge... Who exactly? The problem is people who always think they are better than others. People who at the height of hypocrisy, look down from their shiny towers, and offer thoughts and prayers for slain children time after time, while having absolutely NO plan to do anything to prevent the same in the future, even blocking and thwarting the efforts of those who want to do something. Smh. I have higher ideas about what is lacking in society, and they don't have squat to do with superstition (religion), morals, property, assumed authority or any of that crap. Us old timers could learn a lot from the high school kids living these nightmares. That's probably the only good coming out of all of this. One day that generation will end the madness of out of control capitalism, greed, corruption, hate speech, needless violence, etc. They just need all those pushing outdated provably wrong ideas to get out of the way once and for all. I count myself in that too Peen, just not as much as I count people who think like you.
This is a rational idea that everyone should be able to get behind. Get caught in possession of a gun without them, you are a criminal and get treated as such.
And as long as you could prove yourself reliable, rational , and responsible in all the ways needed, I would 100% support your right. But full auto machine guns have been outlawed for civilians for a reason. So your example, falls short of being reasonable, in that regard. They were legal here at some points, if you know your gun history. Things like the Saint Valentine's Day Massacre caused them to be regulated. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act
Imagine that? Less than 100 years ago, America having just lived with all the violence, came together as reasonable adults and regulated guns... Hard to believe in this day and age.
everyone is a law abiding citizen, until all of a sudden, they aren't.
everyone has a right to buy a weapon if they haven't broken any laws, yet all we can do is punish a former law abiding citizen for committing a crime with the weapon they most likely legally purchased.
well, we don't have a right to limit the amount of people, so weapons are the next best thing, and mental health investment is the 2nd. but since half the country doesn't want to limit the amount of weapons in the country, nor increased mental health institution spending(which equals more spending in healthcare, surprise surprise), well.....
more dead kids. but hey, CRT, the transgendered, and muh rights.
like honestly i can't tell who conservatives dislike more: COVID or living kids.
People like us, definitely. And I wouldn't put it on ALL conservatives, some of them are with us.
who cares about the "some" when it clearly isn't enough to make real change? I'm sure there were "some" good germans during the nazi regime as well. how that work out for the country...
lol, yes I'm toxic masculinity... Or a woke ass call from godless reality just didn't sit well enough with you, for you to respect my point... but that could never be a thing.
You can't just go shut the door on reality to hate on Muslims, without a little bit of introspective, can you? ~ Jiminy (OCD) Cricket.
Ominous texts. An earlier shooting. What we know about the Texas elementary school massacre that killed 21 people By Holly Yan and Aya Elamroussi, CNN
Updated 9:05 PM ET, Wed May 25, 2022 Gunman instagram gun (CNN)We may never know why a shooter gunned down 19 children and two teachers at Robb Elementary School.
But as the nation mourns the 21 lives lost, more details are emerging about the investigation, the gunman and troubling clues leading up to Tuesday's massacre in Uvalde, Texas. Here's what we know: The gunman shot his grandmother and texted a girl about his plans
Authorities have identified the lone gunman as 18-year-old Salvador Ramos. Minutes before the mass shooting, Ramos allegedly sent a series of text messages to a teen girl in Europe who he had met online, describing how he had just shot his grandmother and was going to "shoot up a(n) elementary school."
According to screenshots reviewed by CNN and an interview with the girl, whose mother gave permission for her to be interviewed, Ramos complained about his grandmother being "on the phone with AT&T abojt (sic) my phone." "It's annoying," he texted. Six minutes later, he texted: "I just shot my grandma in her head." Seconds later, he said, "Ima go shoot up a(n) elementary school rn (right now)." The 15-year-old girl, who lives in Frankfurt, Germany, said she began chatting with Ramos on a social media app on May 9.
She said Ramos told her on Monday that he received a package of ammunition. She said he told her that the bullets would expand when they struck somebody. At some point, the girl asked what he planned to do. She said he told her it was a surprise and to "just wait for it." On Tuesday, at 11:01 a.m. CT, Ramos called and told her he loved her, she said. Then, about 20 minutes later, he texted her that he had shot his grandmother. As of Wednesday, a woman likely to be Ramos' grandmother was being treated in serious condition at a San Antonio hospital. The shooter crashed his vehicle before the massacre
It's not clear why Ramos decided to target Robb Elementary -- a school that had 535 students in grades 2 through 4 as of last school year. But before he entered the school, his vehicle crashed into a nearby ditch, Texas Department of Public Safety (DPS) Sgt. Erick Estrada said. The cause of the crash was not clear. Ramos got out of the vehicle wearing a bulletproof vest and carrying a rifle, the sergeant said. How the school shooting unfolded The gunman encountered a school district police officer, who wasn't able to stop him, Estrada said. "He was engaged by an Uvalde ISD police officer who works here at the school. And then after that, he was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department," Estrada said.
Officials haven't made clear how Ramos managed to get past the officers and open fire in adjacent classrooms. While "engaged" with the school officer, the gunman dropped a black bag full of ammunition outside of the school, Estrada told CNN's Wolf Blitzer. "Inside that bag was actually more ammunition. He actually dropped that ammunition and ran inside the school where he barricaded himself inside one of the classrooms and, unfortunately, that is where he started conducting his business of shooting innocent children, shooting the two innocent adults that were inside that classroom," he said. DPS is still investigating what happened during that interaction, but during a news conference, Director Steven McGraw said that no shots were fired. More than 20 US Customs and Border Protection agents responded to the scene and provided aid, a law enforcement official said. A CBP agent was injured but is stable, the official said. The agents and other law enforcement officers took fire from the shooter, who had barricaded himself, Department of Homeland Security spokeswoman Marsha Espinosa tweeted. "Risking their own lives, these Border Patrol Agents and other officers put themselves between the shooter and children on the scene to draw the shooter's attention away from potential victims and save lives," she wrote. Eventually, a tactical agency "was able to eliminate the threat and bring the suspect down," Estrada said.
Hours after the shooting, families waited in agony at a nearby civic center to find out if their loved ones had survived. Some told CNN they gave DNA samples to help identify the victims. "We see people coming out just terrorized. They're crying one by one. They're being told that their child has passed on," said state Sen. Roland Gutierrez, who was at the civic center Tuesday. Outside, a father who had just learned his child was killed fought tears as he was embraced by his cousins, CNN's Nicole Chavez reported. A few yards away, a grandmother arrived from San Antonio. She said she would not stop praying for her 10-year-old granddaughter as they waited for the identification results from the DNA swabs.
By Wednesday morning, several families confirmed they had received devastating news. Just hours before he was killed, 10-year-old Xavier Lopez was celebrated at Robb Elementary's honor roll ceremony, his mother Felicha Martinez told The Washington Post. "He really couldn't wait to go to middle school," she said. Amerie Jo Garza's father Angel spent seven hours searching for his 10-year-old daughter. He eventually learned Amerie Jo was among the children killed. "Please don't take a second for granted," Garza posted on Facebook. "Hug your family. Tell them you love them." As of Wednesday, six victims remained hospitalized, four of whom -- including a woman likely to be the gunman's grandmother -- are at University Hospital in San Antonio, according to the hospital. Two 10-year-old girls are among those in the hospital, one is in serious condition and the other is in good condition, the hospital said. A 9-year-old child at the hospital is also in good condition. Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio received two adult patients from the shooting. Both are listed in serious condition, the hospital tweeted. The bodies of nine victims were being released to funeral homes Wednesday evening, Judge Lalo Diaz told CNN. The remaining 12 will be released by Thursday, Diaz said. What we know about the shooter The gunman was a student at Uvalde High School, officials said. Three days before the shooting, a photo of two AR-15-style rifles appeared on an Instagram account tied to Ramos. One of Ramos' former classmates, who didn't want to be identified, told CNN that Ramos recently sent him a photo showing an AR-15, a backpack with rounds of ammunition and several gun magazines.
"I was like, 'Bro, why do you have this?' and he was like, 'Don't worry about it,'" the friend said. "He proceeded to text me, 'I look very different now. You wouldn't recognize me,'" the friend added. The friend said Ramos had stopped attending school regularly. Ramos worked at a local Wendy's, the restaurant's manager told CNN. Evening manager Adrian Mendes said Ramos "kept to himself mostly" and "didn't really socialize with the other employees. ... He just worked, got paid, and came in to get his check." The teen girl in Germany who said she and Ramos had communicated for weeks said Ramos told her he spent a lot of time alone at home. "Every time I talked to him," she said, "he never had plans with his friends."
What I had to say in this thread was HARDLY an example toxic masculinity. And if she is in anyway saying my comments were an attack on her, that's BS. I'm guilty of it at other times in other moments, but not in this thread. And unlike some, I acknowledge I'm a work in progress, always have.
Nice try, but I dont have "Gameboys". My demographic is female and lgbt.
And they prefer to keep politics out of their gaming experince.
My games dont have the demographic this forum does.
Primarily male Vocal Aggressive
I feel a lot of you should read about toxic masculinity.
Blaming guns for a problem that is almost exclusively male in nature needs further discussion. You bros need to discuss it. Or a psychologist. I cant tell you all how to fix your ish.
It is way bigger and more complicated than I would know how to explain. Its male culture. It needs psychologists to figure out.
Of course a lot of it is toxic masculinity -- I think about 97% of shootings in the US are committed by men, it's staggering...
But other countries have men -- and they don't have near the rate of school shootings that we have in the US.
I don't think that gun laws will stop every gun crime in America. In particular, i think it will have a fairly small effect against organized crime and gangs, where guns will be moved illegally.
But gun laws will strongly affect crimes where the guns tend to be purchased legally and crimes are committed in the spur of the moment: school shootings, domestic violence, suicides. And that's a massive number of deaths (especially suicides).
Why do we need to sell AR-15s to 18 year olds -- what the heck are we gaining as a society from this?
Man, listening and reading our media today and it's obvious... our politics and political divide in this country is much like arguing with a three-year-old. Stupid to engage and you'll never win. And sadly, it seems like that is all anyone is concerned with... "winning".
Let's argue about gun laws 'til we're blue in the face and see if that stops school shootings. Very little talk of fortifying schools. Yet the same people who know damn well raising the age to buy weapons won't change anything, scream in the aisles that a metal detector won't stop every school shooting. Well no crap. So let's do nothing and just continue to argue.
Schools and grounds must be fortified. Metal detectors at every entrance. Security personnel must be on grounds. Security cameras must be at every entrance (driveways and doors). You need one dude in a seat and one roving, in full communication, both with the ability to lock all doors. If cameras can send me a bill from a toll road in NY state they can damn sure immediately recognize a plate on a car that doesn't belong to a registered parent, vendor or staff member. You don't even need a human manning the camera for the "rover" to be warned of an unregistered vehicle. Local police on site for beginning and ending each school day.
It's not that hard to be proactive, and it likely costs less than what our government has spent on "free masks" over the last three years.
Let's go ahead and argue whether the gun or the person kills people aside from this issue. Not that, or anything else, is the be-all-end-all... but common sense measures concerning the sanctity of students feeling safe in a freaking school need to happen NOW.
I have mentioned this in the past. I don't know that we need to fortify, at least in a obvious way. No doubt a office or two would be nice.
My thinking is every parent with a child in the school should be required to act as a monitor a few times a year. This should be much like jury duty and employers would be required to pay the employee for paid time off. On any given day you might have 8 or so parents stationed at doors and around the grounds. Put them in teams of 2 with communication to the officers. Just having the extra set of eyes would be a big benefit. Early warning if you will. Most of the time these punks are dressed up like G.I.Joe. A early warning that a suspicious person is headed towards door XYZ would have to be of great benefit.
That is why I would like 2 officers per school. Maybe even 3-4 in larger high schools so you could spread them out a bit. With 1 officer, he or she might be on the other side of the building when something like this happens. We all know how sounds echo in a school hall. The officer might hear the shooting and or screams but it probably sounds like it could be out of a few corridors. It's going to take time for them to be able to pinpoint exactly from where the trouble originates.
This doesn't need to be a federal program. It only needs to be federally mandated with the states enforcing the standards. I for one would be totally good with my state and local taxes in one form or another being raised some fraction to pay for this to happen. It doesn't cost that damn much money to see to it that every school has 2 officers on site and have 8 or so parents acting as eyes in the halls and grounds.
Another benefit of having parents around. It would help keep incidents in the halls from happening. Are you going to act up if you see one of your parents, or the parents of someone you know in the hallway between classes?
Heck, don't even limit the pool of monitors to just parents. Ask for community volunteers. People volunteer time at food banks, animal shelters, hospitals....add school monitor to the list of options.
Switzerland has a stunningly high rate of gun ownership — here's why it doesn't have mass shootings Hilary Brueck Updated 13 hours ago
Switzerland hasn't had a mass shooting in 21 years. In the US, there is almost one every day. The Swiss have strict rules for who can get a gun, and take firearm training very seriously.
Switzerland hasn't had a mass shooting since 2001, when a man stormed the local parliament in Zug, killing 14 people and then himself.
The country has about 2 million privately owned guns in a nation of 8.3 million people. In 2016, the country had 47 attempted homicides with firearms. The country's overall murder rate is near zero.
The National Rifle Association often points to Switzerland to argue that more rules on gun ownership aren't necessary. In 2016, the NRA said on its blog that the European country had one of the lowest murder rates in the world while still having millions of privately owned guns and a few hunting weapons that don't even require a permit.
But the Swiss have some specific rules and regulations for gun use.
Insider took a look at the country's past with guns to see why it has lower rates of gun violence than the US, where gun death rates are now at their highest in more than 20 years, and the leading cause of death for children and adolescents.
Switzerland is obsessed with getting shooting right. Every year, it holds a shooting contest for kids aged 13 to 17. Zurich's Knabenschiessen is a traditional annual festival that dates back to the 1600s.
Though the word roughly translates to "boys shooting" and the competition used to be only boys, teenage girls have been allowed in since 1991.
Kids in the country flock to the competition every September to compete in target shooting using Swiss army service rifles. They're proud to show off how well they can shoot.
Accuracy is prized above all else, and a Schutzenkonig — a king or queen of marksmen — is crowned.
Having an armed citizenry helped keep the Swiss neutral for more than 200 years. The Swiss stance is one of "armed neutrality."
Switzerland hasn't taken part in any international armed conflict since 1815, but some Swiss soldiers help with peacekeeping missions around the world.
Many Swiss see gun ownership as part of a patriotic duty to protect their homeland.
Most Swiss men are required to learn how to use a gun.
Unlike the US, Switzerland has mandatory military service for men.
All men between the ages of 18 and 34 deemed "fit for service" are given a pistol or a rifle and trained.
After they've finished their service, the men can typically buy and keep their service weapons, but they have to get a permit for them.
In recent years, the Swiss government has voted to reduce the size of the country's armed forces.
Switzerland is a bit like a well-designed fort.
Switzerland's borders are basically designed to blow up on command, with at least 3,000 demolition points on bridges, roads, rails, and tunnels around the landlocked European country.
John McPhee put it this way in his book "La Place de la Concorde Suisse":
"Near the German border of Switzerland, every railroad and highway tunnel has been prepared to pinch shut explosively. Nearby mountains have been made so porous that whole divisions can fit inside them."
Roughly a quarter of the gun-toting Swiss use their weapons for military or police duty.
In 2000, more than 25% of Swiss gun owners said they kept their weapon for military or police duty, while less than 5% of Americans said the same.
In addition to the militia's arms, the country has about 2 million privately owned guns — a figure that has been plummeting over the past decade.
The Swiss government has estimated that about half of the privately owned guns in the country are former service rifles. But there are signs the Swiss gun-to-human ratio is dwindling.
In 2007, the Small Arms Survey found that Switzerland had the third-highest ratio of civilian firearms per 100 residents (46), outdone by only the US (89) and Yemen (55).
But it seems that figure has dropped over the past decade. It's now estimated that there's about one civilian gun for every three Swiss people.
Gun sellers follow strict licensing procedures.
Swiss authorities decide on a local level whether to give people gun permits. They also keep a log of everyone who owns a gun in their region, known as a canton, though hunting rifles and some semiautomatic long arms are exempt from the permit requirement.
But cantonal police don't take their duty dolling out gun licenses lightly. They might consult a psychiatrist or talk with authorities in other cantons where a prospective gun buyer has lived before to vet the person.
Swiss laws are designed to prevent anyone who's violent or incompetent from owning a gun.
People who've been convicted of a crime or have an alcohol or drug addiction aren't allowed to buy guns in Switzerland.
The law also states that anyone who "expresses a violent or dangerous attitude" won't be permitted to own a gun.
Gun owners who want to carry their weapon for "defensive purposes" also have to prove they can properly load, unload, and shoot their weapon and must pass a test to get a license.
Switzerland is also one of the richest, healthiest, and, by some measures, happiest countries in the world.
Switzerland was ranked sixth in the UN's 2019 World Happiness Report.
The Swiss have been consistently near the top of this list. In 2017, when Switzerland was ranked fourth overall among nations, the report authors noted that the country tends to do well on "all the main factors found to support happiness: caring, freedom, generosity, honesty, health, income and good governance."
Meanwhile, according to the report, happiness has taken a dive over the past decade in the US.
The report authors cite "declining social support and increased corruption," as well as addiction and depression for the fall.
But the Swiss aren't perfect when it comes to guns.
Switzerland still has one of the highest rates of gun violence in Europe, and most gun deaths in the country are suicides.
Around the world, stronger gun laws have been linked to fewer gun deaths. That has been the case in Switzerland too.
After hundreds of years of letting local cantons determine gun rules, Switzerland passed its first federal regulations on guns in 1999, after the country's crime rate increased during the 1990s.
Since then, more provisions have been added to keep the country on par with EU gun laws, and gun deaths, including suicides, have continued to drop.
As of 2015, the Swiss estimated that only about 11% of citizens kept their military-issued gun at home.
Most people aren't allowed to carry their guns around in Switzerland.
Concealed-carry permits are tough to get in Switzerland, and most people who aren't security workers or police officers don't have one.
"We have guns at home, but they are kept for peaceful purposes," Martin Killias, a professor of criminology at Zurich University, told the BBC in 2013. "There is no point taking the gun out of your home in Switzerland because it is illegal to carry a gun in the street."
That's mostly true. Hunters and sports shooters are allowed to transport their guns only from their home to the firing range — they can't just stop off for coffee with their rifle.
And guns cannot be loaded during transport to prevent them from accidentally firing in a place like Starbucks — something that has happened in the US at least twice.
It's not to blame. What they say is true. The answer isn't in the guns. Only simpletons think that is the answer.
The problem is the Godless, no morals society which we have become. There is no respect for life, property or authority. As long as we continue to live in a society that doesn't have shame or respect, we can expect this to continue.
BS Peen... We've always had people that were Godless... ALWAYS all down through history. But they haven't always hadaccess to weapons like the this one.
peen...not a bad idea...and it might work just fine for some situations...at this point all ideas should be given consideration, imo.
I'm still trying to understand what happened at that elementary school..attempting to get accurate information...I watched Texas Gov Abbott's presser yesterday and came away thinking these guys are not telling us the full story about what went down at that elementary school, for some reason. There seems to be something amiss in the response to the individual between the time he crashed his vehicle just outside the school grounds and he breached the school entrance.
IMO,there was a "failure" and it seems that those in charge do not want to talk about it. We have to know what happened before we can attempt to fix it so it never happens again.
So we wait, hoping we get the straight facts concerning what happened in Uvalde.
After further inspection of the deceased suspect’s clothing, it now appears the suspect was not wearing body armor as previous information had indicated. Instead, Ramos is said to have been wearing only a plate carrier with no ballistic armor inside when he exchanged gunfire with several officers at the school.
I mostly support your last sentence and I think* the age to legally buy a handgun is 21. It could be the same for a rifle. It does one thing, let's your mind sit still if you have unwell thoughts. There's potentially more time to get help which is the real problem that's going on.
I only have one problem with that, if you're 18 then you're an adult. What if you're a father or someone who has your own house and has to raise a family in an unsafe environment?
At another angle, I believe the 2nd amendment exists to keep the government in check shall it become tyrannical. At that point I'm pretty sure people would just give you a rifle no questions asked and be handing them out.
I like to look at it from all viewpoints. Let's say you raise the minimum age to 21 to buy a rifle, you can't just do that, you also have to couple it with more funding for mental health and extra security at schools.
-Raise age to buy gun to 21 -More funding for mental health -More security at schools
After further inspection of the deceased suspect’s clothing, it now appears the suspect was not wearing body armor as previous information had indicated. Instead, Ramos is said to have been wearing only a plate carrier with no ballistic armor inside when he exchanged gunfire with several officers at the school.
If this is true, that the shooter was not protected with body armor, who the hell took it upon themselves to spread that lie?
According to screenshots reviewed by CNN and an interview with the girl, whose mother gave permission for her to be interviewed, Ramos complained about his grandmother being "on the phone with AT&T abojt (sic) my phone." "It's annoying," he texted. Six minutes later, he texted: "I just shot my grandma in her head." Seconds later, he said, "Ima go shoot up a(n) elementary school rn (right now)." The 15-year-old girl, who lives in Frankfurt, Germany, said she began chatting with Ramos on a social media app on May 9.
and
Quote
The teen girl in Germany who said she and Ramos had communicated for weeks said Ramos told her he spent a lot of time alone at home. "Every time I talked to him," she said, "he never had plans with his friends."
The left will continue to place all the blame on the right while ignoring what is right in front of their faces. Let's not try and identify these troubled souls, get them the help they need, and get them off the streets and instead just blame political parties.
The left will continue to place all the blame on the right while ignoring what is right in front of their faces. Let's not try and identify these troubled souls, get them the help they need, and get them off the streets and instead just blame political parties.
Ignorant.
I do not believe either party has moral superiority.
In addition, Texas ranked last out of all 50 states and the District of Columbia for overall access to mental health care, according to the 2021 State of Mental Health in America report.
Abbott said the shooter had a 'mental health' issue. A month ago, he slashed funding to help.
Mike Hixenbaugh and Corky Siemaszko and Aria Bendix Wed, May 25, 2022, 7:22 PM·4 min read link
UVALDE, Texas — Gov. Greg Abbott said Wednesday that the Uvalde school shooter had a "mental health challenge" and the state needed to "do a better job with mental health" — yet in April he slashed $211 million from the department that oversees mental health programs.
In addition, Texas ranked last out of all 50 states and the District of Columbia for overall access to mental health care, according to the 2021 State of Mental Health in America report.
"We as a state, we as a society, need to do a better job with mental health," Abbot said during a news conference at Robb Elementary School, where a gunman shot and killed 19 children and two teachers on Tuesday.
His remarks came just a day after an outraged Connecticut senator called out lawmakers opposed to gun control who seek to blame mental illness for the most recent school shooting and others before it.
In rejecting suggestions that stronger gun control laws could have prevented the tragedy, Abbott conceded the slain 18-year-old suspect had no known mental health issues or criminal history but said, "Anybody who shoots somebody else has a mental health challenge.”
His assertions drew rebukes from public health experts and scholars who study mass murderers, as well as from his Democratic gubernatorial rival Beto O’Rourke, who was ejected from the news conference after storming the stage and accusing the pro-gun Republican of “doing nothing” to stop gun violence.
“There is no evidence the shooter is mentally ill, just angry and hateful,” said Lori Post, director of the Buehler Center for Health Policy and Economics at the Northwestern University School of Medicine. “While it is understandable that most people cannot fathom slaughtering small children and want to attribute it to mental health, it is very rare for a mass shooter to have a diagnosed mental health condition.”
David Riedman, founder of the Center for Homeland Defense and Security’s K-12 School Shooting Database, said, "Overall, mass shooters are rational. They have a plan. It’s something that develops over months or years, and there’s a clear pathway to violence.”
The much bigger problem, they said, is Texas and many other states are awash in weapons.
“Texas has more guns per capita than any other state,” Post said. “After the tragic 2019 mass shooting in El Paso, the governor signed several bills to curb mass shootings; unfortunately, most of those bills involved arming the public to stop mass shooters."
Post pointed out that police officers trained in active shootings were injured Tuesday. She and others said that even if mental illness were the root cause of the elementary school shooting, local officials have historically shortchanged programs to help people with psychological problems.
Last year, The Houston Chronicle published a three-part series that showed Texas leaders failed to adequately fund or manage the state’s eroding mental health system.
In addition, conservative parenting groups in Texas and elsewhere have targeted school-based mental health initiatives, including programs meant to help students manage their emotions. Critics claim the programs are a “Trojan horse” for critical race theory, a separate and rarely taught academic concept that examines how systemic racism is embedded in society.
In Uvalde County, a mostly rural area where a fifth of the 24,456 mostly Latino residents live in poverty, the money budgeted for “health and welfare” has ranged in recent years from $2.8 million to $3.8 million, records show.
“I hesitate to comment on how much a county should be spending because mental illness cannot fairly be blamed as the primary driver of mass shootings,” said Greg Hansch, who heads the Texas chapter of the National Alliance on Mental Illness. “People with mental illness are more likely to be victims of mass shootings than perpetrators of mass shootings. Less than 10 percent of shootings involved a suspect who had mental health issues."
Dr. Sadiya Khan, an assistant professor at the Northwestern University Feinberg School of Medicine, said that while mental health programs need more funding, "it will not eliminate the need for gun control."
"All it takes is one person to get one gun to ruin hundreds of lives," she said. "Our children’s lives depend on gun control.”
Tamar Mendelson, a professor in the mental health department at Johns Hopkins University, said that while it’s difficult to put a dollar figure on what it will take to ease the nation's mental health crisis, it's clear the U.S. “doesn’t invest enough in mental health.”
“We also do not take a preventative approach,” Mendelson said. “We don’t do it enough in school settings, where we can provide critically needed care to young people. And we lack ‘culturally competent’ care, like for example, Spanish-speaking therapists.”
On Tuesday, after learning about the Texas massacre, Sen. Chris Murphy, D-Conn., pleaded with his Republican colleagues to ditch the old excuses.
“Spare me the [censored] about mental illness,” Murphy said. “We don’t have any more mental illness than any other country in the world. You cannot explain this through a prism of mental illness."
Hixenbaugh reported from Uvalde and Siemaszko from New York.
You offer solutions? Lol …you and people who think like you are the problem.
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The left will continue to place all the blame on the right while ignoring what is right in front of their faces. Let's not try and identify these troubled souls, get them the help they need, and get them off the streets and instead just blame political parties.
Ignorant.
I do not believe either party has moral superiority.
In addition, Texas ranked last out of all 50 states and the District of Columbia for overall access to mental health care, according to the 2021 State of Mental Health in America report.
Yeah the looney RIGHT! Who has the mental health problem here? This is coming from the same guy who has proven he will let the rapists off the hook and will turn around and prosecute their victims.
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog The left will continue to place all the blame on the right while ignoring what is right in front of their faces. Let's not try and identify these troubled souls, get them the help they need, and get them off the streets and instead just blame political parties.
Ignorant.
Quote
I do not believe either party has moral superiority.
Once again, I better clarify. I am not blaming either party. I am not blaming the Democrats and I sure as hell am not defending the Republicans. I don''t trust either party and I do not like or believe in either party. The less they have to do w/my life, the better.
What I am saying is that we keep ignoring the larger problem and focus on this political ping-pong game where the ball of blame gets paddled from one court to the other. I will say this again..............social misfits are not hard to identify. My 5th grade students were already capable of identifying them. These troubled youths are dangerous early on. Most are identified but are not properly treated and dealt with. The prevailing treatments and interventions are well-intentioned because we want to believe in our young, but it's not working and we are only furthering their isolation and how they feel victimized by the rest of society.
Are Americans ready to make hard decisions and more importantly are they willing to spend the enormous amount of money that it will take to treat and care for this ever-growing part of our population?
I doubt it. Instead, the idiots from both parties will continue to blame one another and their minions will argue w/ferocity about how their "side" is right. That is why I used the word "ignorant."
man all these good guys with a gun not doing a damn thing to stop these shooters.
well, that trash ass narrative can go out the window now.
This is the key problem though...
Last night there were probably a million people (mainly men) who went to bed and dreamed about how "if I were only there with my gun, I would have stopped this..." - they dream of the shootout where they are the hero and this dream drives their politics.
Interestingly, they never get shot in that dream.
But that's not reality - and nobody wants to enter a room with a pistol against a suspect holding an AR-15.... Because while our politics lives in dreamworld - we do not.
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
man all these good guys with a gun not doing a damn thing to stop these shooters.
well, that trash ass narrative can go out the window now.
This is the key problem though...
Last night there were probably a million people (mainly men) who went to bed and dreamed about how "if I were only there with my gun, I would have stopped this..." - they dream of the shootout where they are the hero and this dream drives their politics.
Interestingly, they never get shot in that dream.
But that's not reality - and nobody wants to enter a room with a pistol against a suspect holding an AR-15.... Because while our politics lives in dreamworld - we do not.
Unfortunately and undoubtedly some of these dreamer soldier hero’s you speak of turn into mass shooters.
Sure just like you don't need a gun to protect yourself, that's what cops are for.
How often is there a school shooting in Utah? Staff has been able to carry there for a long time. Schools are NOT a gun free zone. Yeah, someone will likely bring up the teacher who had an ND and shot someone. But there wasn't a death and it is better than some one with mental problems having free run to shoot indiscriminately while responders figure out what is happening.
If he was supposed to go in and didn't does he still qualify as a good guy?
Keep in mind that police actually do not have a duty to protect you (Warren vs DC). They only have a duty to protect special people (read politicians and judges etc.)
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
I would not argue against mental illness being a driving issue. I can even understand if someone wants to claim it is entirely responsible for the mass shootings. Let's for a second say that assertion is true. We then have 2 choices:
1, we can make it as easy as possible for them to kill a lot of people or 2, we can make it as hard as possible for them to kill a lot of people
And yes, this country needs to do a better job addressing the mental health issues. But one of the blockades to that is many (most?) mentally ill people don't seek help. Often they don't want help because they don't think they need it. Other time they are afraid of being burdened by the stigmata that society places on those that do seek help.
Police narrative on Texas school shooting in question as new details emerge
Christopher Wilson·Senior Writer Thu, May 26, 2022, 9:21 AM
The official account of what happened during a shooting at the Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas, is under scrutiny following the reporting of new details.
At a press briefing Wednesday afternoon, Texas Gov. Greg Abbott praised police for their response to the massacre Tuesday that killed 19 kids and two teachers. A Border Patrol officer fatally shot the gunman, who authorities identified as 18-year-old Salvador Ramos.
“The reality is as horrible as what happened, it could have been worse," Abbott said. "The reason it was not worse is because law enforcement officials did what they do. They showed amazing courage by running towards gunfire for the singular purpose of trying to save lives. And it is a fact that because of their quick response getting on the scene, being able to respond to the gunman and eliminate the gunman, they were able to save lives. Unfortunately, not enough.”
However, the Associated Press reported late Wednesday that police waited outside the school for at least 40 minutes while parents and onlookers urged them to do something.
“Let’s just rush in because the cops aren’t doing anything like they are supposed to,” Javier Cazares, whose daughter Jacklyn was killed in the attack, told the AP. “More could have been done.”
“There were five or six of [us] fathers, hearing the gunshots, and [police officers] were telling us to move back,” Cazares told the Washington Post. “We didn’t care about us. We wanted to storm the building. We were saying, ‘Let’s go,’ because that is how worried we were, and we wanted to get our babies out.”
A nearly seven-minute video posted to social media seems to support the AP’s story, showing police restraining parents outside of the school, including holding one person on the ground. Uvalde, a small city of about 16,000 people, spends roughly 40% of its annual city budget on police.
Police said the shooter had barricaded himself inside the school, but the AP reported that he barricaded himself by locking the door. Border Patrol had difficulty breaching the locked classroom door and had to get a staff member with a key to unlock it.
“The bottom line is law enforcement was there. They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom,” Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw told reporters Wednesday.
Law enforcement did not provide a televised press briefing on Tuesday evening. Abbott spoke briefly about the shooting in the late afternoon before attending a campaign fundraiser. School district leadership gave brief statements without providing any details or taking questions.
Officials said Wednesday that they immediately engaged the shooter so he was pinned down and couldn’t access other areas of the school. NBC News reported early Thursday morning that, “For the second time, it appears the information initially provided by Texas law enforcement officials was wrong. The shooter was not stopped by the first officer that encountered him. And he wasn’t pinned down but rather appears to have locked himself in a classroom.”
Law enforcement had previously said the shooter was wearing body armor but also retracted that initial claim.
In an interview Wednesday evening with San Antonio outlet KENS 5, a fourth grader who said he was hiding in a classroom indicated that police officers’ actions may have caused another child who was hiding from the shooter to get shot.
“When the cops came, the cop said: ‘Yell if you need help!’ And one of the persons in my class said ‘help.’ The guy overheard and he came in and shot her,” said the boy. “The cop barged into that classroom. The guy shot at the cop. And the cops started shooting.”
The two teachers in the fourth-grade classroom, Irma Garcia and Eva Mireles, were killed. The student said they were “nice teachers” who “went in front of my classmates to help. To save them.”
Lt. Christopher Olivarez of the Texas Department of Public Safety told CNN Thursday morning that authorities were still gathering information on what had happened, including why it took officers so long to enter the building.
“I can tell you right now, as a father myself, I would want to go in too, but it’s a volatile situation,” Olivarez said when asked about Cazares’s comments. “We have an active shooter situation, we’re trying to preserve any further loss of life, and as much as they want to go into that school, we cannot have individuals go into that school, especially if they’re not armed.”
Olivarez said the school did have surveillance video that the FBI was obtaining.
“We’re trying to establish every single timeline, as far as how long the shooter was inside the classroom, how long did the shooting take place, but as of right now, we have not been able to establish that,” Olivarez said. “We want to provide factual information as opposed to just providing timelines that are preliminary. We estimate anywhere from 40 minutes to an hour.”
Olivarez also said they were still gathering the exact details of the initial confrontation between the shooter and the school resource officer. Olivarez said the initial report he had received was that gunfire was exchanged between the two but that information had yet to be corroborated.
And yes, this country needs to do a better job addressing the mental health issues. But one of the blockades to that is many (most?) mentally ill people don't seek help. Often they don't want help because they don't think they need it. Other time they are afraid of being burdened by the stigmata that society places on those that do seek help.
In this case the shooter passed three background checks. 3 Background checks had to include some mental health evaluation. No red flags raised so mental health wasn’t a issue in this case. The shooter was overly upset that his grandmother was questioning his cell phone bill and usage and snapped. A sane law abiding AR owning citizen. Right up until the second he snapped and became a mass murderer.
No rational person would say that any one thing is "entirely responsible" for mass shootings. That would be just as ignorant as those who try to make the shootings entirely political.
I am not a mental health expert. I had a couple of years as Psyche major, but I have no qualifications to support what I am about to imply. I'm not sure if mental illness and social misfits are one and the same or if they are loosely connected. I suspect the latter. Look at some of these losers who are committing these crimes. Some are extreme racists. Who in their right mind would embrace that point of view? Others are the social misfits who can't ever find a girl and our outcasts among their peers. Remember the Asian dude w/the nice car who blamed girls for not dating him? Or, this most recent guy who reportedly did not have friends and had an internet girlfriend. I could go on and on but that would be boring to most.
Wouldn't identifying these people and providing treatment or removing them from everyday society "make it as hard as possible for them to kill a lot of people?" In the meantime, wouldn't doing studies of how we are creating so many monsters and trying to develop suggestions on how to improve our social climate help reduce the problem?
Nothing is full-proof. Again, I am not opposed to stronger gun regulations. I have no problem w/raising the age of ownership or background checks. I am not opposed to fortifying our schools so they are safer, but again, I caution you that turning a school into something that resembles a prison is not a good environment for learning.
Our biggest issue is that to properly make all of these changes, the cost is going to be astronomical. The mental health and/or dealing w/the social misfits would be an immense expense that I can't even put a reasonable number on. And that is our dilemma. Thus, the politicians continue to point fingers and exhibit fake outrage and the public falls for it.
Speaking of the public.............I wonder how much of a financial investment is the public willing to make or endure, if you prefer, to help keep our children safe?
Our biggest issue is that to properly make all of these changes, the cost is going to be astronomical. The mental health and/or dealing w/the social misfits would be an immense expense that I can't even put a reasonable number on. And that is our dilemma. Thus, the politicians continue to point fingers and exhibit fake outrage and the public falls for it.
Speaking of the public.............I wonder how much of a financial investment is the public willing to make or endure, if you prefer, to help keep our children safe?
I'm 100% for more mental health services (and this is definitely a party line issue -- not something that "neither side is addressing")...
But, how does every other country in the world manage to solve this problem? They aren't spending 10x as much on health care as we are .... they are almost always spending less.
No rational person would say that any one thing is "entirely responsible" for mass shootings. That would be just as ignorant as those who try to make the shootings entirely political. But many do. I also think it is ignorant. Just like it it ignorant for someone to say this has nothing to do with guns.
I am not a mental health expert. I had a couple of years as Psyche major, but I have no qualifications to support what I am about to imply. I'm not sure if mental illness and social misfits are one and the same or if they are loosely connected. I suspect the latter. Look at some of these losers who are committing these crimes. Some are extreme racists. Who in their right mind would embrace that point of view? Others are the social misfits who can't ever find a girl and our outcasts among their peers. Remember the Asian dude w/the nice car who blamed girls for not dating him? Or, this most recent guy who reportedly did not have friends and had an internet girlfriend. I could go on and on but that would be boring to most. These are not the same but there is certainly overlap.
Wouldn't identifying these people and providing treatment or removing them from everyday society "make it as hard as possible for them to kill a lot of people?" In the meantime, wouldn't doing studies of how we are creating so many monsters and trying to develop suggestions on how to improve our social climate help reduce the problem? How do you identify them and force them into treatment if they have yet to do anything legally wrong ? How do you remove them from society if they have done nothing legally wrong? Should we remove all the Proud Boys from society? Their rhetoric is worrisome but having their beliefs (no matter how crazy I may think they are) is their right, up until the point it infringes on someone else's rights. What about flat-earthers? I believe that it is crazy for someone to believe that the earth is flat. Should we do something about them?
Nothing is full-proof. Again, I am not opposed to stronger gun regulations. I have no problem w/raising the age of ownership or background checks. I am not opposed to fortifying our schools so they are safer, but again, I caution you that turning a school into something that resembles a prison is not a good environment for learning. I would agree that turning a school into something that resemble a war zone fortification should be a last resort. And I agree that there should be stronger gun regulation. Unfortunately it seem as if we are going in the opposite direction. We seem to be doing all that we can to make it easier to get a gun
Our biggest issue is that to properly make all of these changes, the cost is going to be astronomical. The mental health and/or dealing w/the social misfits would be an immense expense that I can't even put a reasonable number on. And that is our dilemma. Thus, the politicians continue to point fingers and exhibit fake outrage and the public falls for it. I don't have any idea of what this would cost. Some politicians have fake outrage, others have true outrage , and yet others act as if this isn't a problem at all.
Speaking of the public.............I wonder how much of a financial investment is the public willing to make or endure, if you prefer, to help keep our children safe? INteresting question to which I couldn't venture to guess.
Good point about other countries. It's certainly eye-opening. That is why I briefly mentioned about allocating more money for research. I don't claim to have the answers. I just think that more needs to be done and we need a more holistic approach rather than trying to pigeon-hole things. For example, I wonder if there are differences on the effects of social media, amount of time spent on certain activities, political divides, classes, etc. Again, I am not saying guns are not a factor and I would support more legislation. I just think we are selling ourselves short if we try to make this a black and white issue. I'm using that phrase figuratively, not literally.
Many countries make it very very hard for their citizens to buy any firearms at all let alone a AR. And only after training and multiple gun safety classes. But the USA has never been known to follow a working model when it comes to Gun’s, education, healthcare, Transportation, and Law enforcement.
I want to be clear that I am not arguing. I'll let most of what you said simply stand on their own merits. I'm good w/that. I will just address two points. The first point we discussed and the third.
In regards to the first interaction, I will just say that I will not reduce myself to ignorant behavior and/or beliefs just because others do.
The third point is controversial. I don't think our society is prepared to deal with it. Understand that we do indeed identify troubled youths at a fairly young age. They do receive intervention and Lord knows they receive a ton of accommodations that often adversely affect the lives of their peers. The controversial part is about re-thinking how we treat those individuals. My thoughts on this seem in conflict w/one another because on one front, I would want more compassion and efforts dedicated to treating the tormented individuals. On the other hand, a majority of health professionals and do-gooders would be appalled at some of the consequences I would consider putting in place in order to keep others safe.
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
That's messed up !
Right? Yet the gun establishment makes a fool of itself by acting like any change is some kind of threat to democracy!
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
That's messed up !
Approximately half the homicides in the US are done with a handgun. Long rifles of all types are a much smaller percentage.
I want to be clear that I am not arguing. I'll let most of what you said simply stand on their own merits. I'm good w/that. I will just address two points. The first point we discussed and the third. To be clear, I am not trying to argue either nor did I think you were arguing. I think we are having a fairly decent discussion.
In regards to the first interaction, I will just say that I will not reduce myself to ignorant behavior and/or beliefs just because others do. I do feel that we need to acknowledge that there are a lot of ignorant behaviors out there. I am sure I am guilty of a few myself. We also need to realize that many of these ignorant behaviors and beliefs present significant barriers to addressing a problem - I used the phrasing "a problem" because I think it is a barrier to addressing most problems not just this one.
The third point is controversial. I don't think our society is prepared to deal with it. Understand that we do indeed identify troubled youths at a fairly young age. They do receive intervention and Lord knows they receive a ton of accommodations that often adversely affect the lives of their peers. The controversial part is about re-thinking how we treat those individuals. My thoughts on this seem in conflict w/one another because on one front, I would want more compassion and efforts dedicated to treating the tormented individuals. On the other hand, a majority of health professionals and do-gooders would be appalled at some of the consequences I would consider putting in place in order to keep others safe.
We do identify many but we miss many as well. Parents play a role too. They refuse to admit little johnny has a problem and needs help. As for how we currently address those issues, it might be interesting to know how many children get identified, and what percent of those receive intervention, and what percent of those receiving intervention had a successful intervention? Though the last question will be difficult to answer because I don't think we would get a consensus on what would be considered a successful outcome.
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
That's messed up !
Approximately half the homicides in the US are done with a handgun. Long rifles of all types are a much smaller percentage.
But it's the drug of choice for every snotty-nosed child killer who wants his 15 minutes. Houston, we have a problem.
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
That's messed up !
Approximately half the homicides in the US are done with a handgun. Long rifles of all types are a much smaller percentage.
Just in case you missed it, this thread happens to be about Mass Murders, not handguns.
Uvalde: AR-15 Buffalo: AR-15 Boulder: AR-15 Orlando: AR-15 Parkland: AR-15 Las Vegas: AR-15 Aurora, CO: AR-15 Sandy Hook: AR-15 Waffle House: AR-15 San Bernardino: AR-15 Midland/Odessa: AR-15 Poway synagogue: AR-15 Sutherland Springs: AR-15 Tree of Life Synagogue: AR-15
Like it or not, this is going to become a huge POLITICAL issue and it needs to be that way just get State Governments to respond to the wishes of the overwhelming majority of Americans who want sensible gun laws passed.
We are talking about 80 to 90% of the citizens who are Republicans, Democrats and Independent who are given lip service to their demands as those politicians who control the State Governments simply ignore the wishes of their citizens and place the wishes of special interest groups such as the NRA ahead of the wishes of the citizens.
Looks like the only way anything is going to change is if the citizens take their government back by forcing the politicians to place a higher priority on the wants and needs of citizens over the special interest "BRIBES"...the special interest money that politicians favor over the wishes of their own citizens and voters.
Anyone talking about curtailing guns, the NRA, firearm manufacturers, or changing the 2nd amendment isn't going to get anywhere because none of those things is the right solution.
Mental health is the right solution. Why isn't anyone talking about that? Why isn't anyone talking about the suicide rate among men? The right question to be asking is, "what's wrong with these people?"
A better question would be who isn't talking about that? I actually agree with you on many points, but it seems one side claims it's the exclusive reason and not a part of a larger puzzle here. It has been discussed how poor our mental health system is. And that's true. I'm not for banning any firearms or taking away anyone's right to buy firearms much like yourself. I do propose raising the age to purchase such firearms to 21. In many of these cases these mass shooters are between the ages of 18-20 and legally purchase these assault rifles. Simply raising the age to purchase them up to 21 seems as though it may have prevented many of these shootings. Now I'm sure some will say that's infringing on the rights of those 18-20 but hell, they're not even old enough to buy a beer and yet some people think it's fine to allow them to buy a weapon that has the ability to kill mass amounts of people so quickly? That just doesn't make sense to me.
But once again let's look at the mental health aspect of this. Are those who are blaming it on mental health proposing we increase funding and spending on mental health? You do realize that even if someone is mentally ill, the best mental healthcare system in the world doesn't do any good if they don't seek help. There is no record of their issues if they never received any help. Let's use this case as an example. There is no record he has ever received treatment for mental health issues. Every report I've seen indicate this kid was bullied from an early age. Someone being bullied wouldn't appear to have an aggressive nature because he is the one being picked on. So how would you predict something like this would happen?
You see, it's easy to just blame everything on mental health issues. The problem is what can you actually do about it? What are your solutions to address it? Because as with everything, knowing there's a problem and finding a solution to that problem are two different things.
As of now the obvious way to address trying to decrease these school shootings is to raise the age of purchasing any semi-automatic weapon to age 21 and mandating a metal detector at every entrance to our schools. Because nobody can predict when a person may snap and there is no record of someone having a mental illness if they haven't been diagnosed with one.
8-year-old girl on Nationals game shooting: 'I was kind of prepared'
How sad is that?
i have daughters in elementary and middle school. the last 2 years they have practiced school shooter drills more than other drills like fire and such.
it's....the word 'sad' just doesn't hit hard enough.
Approximately half the homicides in the US are done with a handgun. Long rifles of all types are a much smaller percentage.
So since we can't try to address every gun issue in America, let's ignore what we can do to protect and try to stop guns most innocent victims, our children? I've known many people who claim since they can't fix an entire problem they will do nothing to address any part of the problem. One thing for sure is when it comes to people who think that way, nothing ever gets better. The topic is school shootings. And facts do exist in regards to school shootings. Many of them are committed by people between the ages of 18-20. In moat every case it's an AR-15 style rifle being used. Trying to distract from those facts do nothing to do with our children being gunned down in schools.
Of course we all care about all murders. But you have to start somewhere. And for me creating a situation where our children feel safe at school is as good as any place to start. Actually I think it's the best place to start.
18 year old buys two ar’s, a few hundred rounds of ammo and full body armor…passes three background checks …no red flags in Texas. Saddle up. “Guns aren’t the problem?” Pffft yes they are. It’s a huge problem.
Some points that I heard being discussed since shooting...
...you want to buy a handgun in Texas..? You have to 21 years old... ...want to buy an AR-15 military style weapon in Texas..? You only have to be 18 years old to buy as many as you want.
That's messed up !
Approximately half the homicides in the US are done with a handgun. Long rifles of all types are a much smaller percentage.
Just in case you missed it, this thread happens to be about Mass Murders, not handguns.
Uvalde: AR-15 Buffalo: AR-15 Boulder: AR-15 Orlando: AR-15 Parkland: AR-15 Las Vegas: AR-15 Aurora, CO: AR-15 Sandy Hook: AR-15 Waffle House: AR-15 San Bernardino: AR-15 Midland/Odessa: AR-15 Poway synagogue: AR-15 Sutherland Springs: AR-15 Tree of Life Synagogue: AR-15
El Paso: AK-47
How many of those guns got their on their own? Do you think people could have used something else? VA Tech it was a handgun. Sandy Hook he had a shotgun as well.
BTW saying AR-15 in this case is like saying handgun. It really is a class of arm, not something specific, not any more. We have two of them, a really nice Colt and and a nice CMMG that was home built. They are as different as a SIG and Glock chambered in the same caliber.
Then let's be totally clear. Make the age of 21 the legal age to be semi automatic weapons. You see, I made the same case you did in regards to the latest pistol I bought. 9mm came with 3, 19 round magazines. That's why I don't think going to an extreme length like banning assault rifles like the fringe left does makes any sense. It only takes matter of a few seconds to change the magazine in my pistol. That's 57 rounds in short order.
Oh, "He had a shotgun as well". Yeah, a shotgun is capable of firing 60 or 90 rounds in less than a minute and can be reloaded in 3 seconds. Dear Lord.
As of now the obvious way to address trying to decrease these school shootings is to raise the age of purchasing any semi-automatic weapon to age 21 and mandating a metal detector at every entrance to our schools.
This. So obvious it's painful, literally.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Because nobody can predict when a person may snap and there is no record of someone having a mental illness if they haven't been diagnosed with one.
And this is where we better get our heads out of our a$$es as a society. Our next passive approach is ignoring the elephant in the room and waiting for someone to tell us there's something wrong, on a case by case basis. The scourge of our times is one that will require prevention, hand-in-hand with intervention and diagnosis... and it's already reached epidemic proportions.
I'll just leave this here from a post on FB. One can call it anecdotal, but if you don't think this is true of any and every group of "kids", in nearly every setting, you're blind. Trust me, I've learned the hard way with my youngest son. As a parent, I can tell you how quickly you can reach a point where you feel powerless.
Quote
FROM A TEACHER: Yesterday, I shut down class about 5 minutes early and told my students I wanted them to just sit and talk to one another. Several of them immediately opened their laptops and began navigating to their favorite computer game. I said, "No, no laptops. I want you to have face-to-face conversations right now." After a collective groan went up, I observed something both wonderful and alarming. For the next few minutes, a couple of tables came alive with conversation. They looked at each other in the eyes and talked with great enthusiasm and interest. It was beautiful to watch and listen to. However, many students were deflated. They did not know what to do without some sort of entertainment from a device. A couple of them put their heads down and avoided eye contact with anyone. I went around the room to those students and tried to engage with them. Some of them mustered a few words, but most didn't know what to do. I share this story as a wakeup call for parents, grandparents, and guardians. It's tragic to me that a large percentage of today's youth do not know how to have real conversation, but it's not their fault. It is our responsibility as adults to lead by example and hold our kids accountable. Unplug every day, talk, and listen to your children. Getting lost in a device does not help them cope with and overcome the things they're going through mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. All it causes is isolation and depression. They need relationships; they need you.
We're already behind the eight ball, the next ten years will be scary. Without some drastic changes, the decades that follow may spell our demise. Over the top? Yes. For good reason.
Then let's be totally clear. Make the age of 21 the legal age to be semi automatic weapons. You see, I made the same case you did in regards to the latest pistol I bought. 9mm came with 3, 19 round magazines. That's why I don't think going to an extreme length like banning assault rifles like the fringe left does makes any sense. It only takes matter of a few seconds to change the magazine in my pistol. That's 57 rounds in short order.
Oh, "He had a shotgun as well". Yeah, a shotgun is capable of firing 60 or 90 rounds in less than a minute and can be reloaded in 3 seconds. Dear Lord.
I've advocated that we should make 20 the age of majority across the board. The down side is too many people graduate HS 3ish years earlier than that. I do like a fixed cutoff between minor and adult though. Maybe if schools spent more time getting people ready to be adults and less time telling them they are special and can be anything they set their little minds to we'd have better citizens.
I would love to watch you shoot 90 rounds of shotgun in less than a minute. I really doubt your body would handle it. I notice you missed the part about VA Tech too, it is inconvenient to think that a mass shooting can be carried out with a handgun with 10 round magazines. Really kills the idea it is only AR-Killydeath-15s ghostguns with million round clipazines.
I really don't dismiss the point the teacher made. I too am concerned about how those "sucked into their devices"often lack basic communication skills, have more trouble communicating, dealing with people in social settings and on an individual basis. Sure there are time it makes more sense to text. But at one point humans figured out that you could tell a lot more in a persons voice, tone and demeanor by talking to them than reading what is in the written word. Now it seems a growing percentage of our society would rather avoid talking and use the written word instead.
I will point out however the teachers own words for some context as it relates to the topic of discussion we are engaged in. School shootings.
"It's tragic to me that a large percentage of today's youth do not know how to have real conversations
Yet those committing these school shootings are very small, small number of our young people. I understand what people are saying about identifying and preventing the problem before it happens. But as you can see by what the teacher is saying within its context, it's a very small fraction of our children who she describes in that FB post that the problem of extreme violence ever manifests itself in.
So do we really want to try to pigeonhole every student who is introverted as having a mental issue? Because as the teacher points out, there's a large percentage who are, and a very small percentage of those who are introverted that ever become monsters. There's a very real possibility that we could go overboard in the other direction and label a lot f children who aren't really a danger to anyone.
I think it is a very complicated issue and one not easily dealt with.
I actually didn't ignore it at all. You're the one who brought up the fact that the Sandy Hook shooter " had a shotgun as well". I'm surprised that my sarcasm escaped you. It was actually intended to point out that there's no way to fire off that many rounds in such a short period of time with a shotgun. So your point that "he had a shotgun as well" was a moot point in the discussion.
I also pointed out that I could just as easily use my 9mm which came with 3, 19 round magazines could just as easily fire 57 rounds in about the same amount of time someone could do so with an AK.
So we agree on almost all of that. The part I admit that you seem to ignore is the FACT that in the vast majority of these school shootings, an AR style rifle is the gun of choice. I'm not sure why you keep trying to minimize that.
I don't minimize it. If you remove AR-15s from the pool (an impossible task) something would fill the void. Gangsters used to go to Ace and get their Tommy guns. When that became difficult they picked something else, the deaths didn't go down. The violence didn't go down. Something else will always fill the void, unless of course you advocate a complete gun ban, which is not going to happen.
Now I think I want to go shopping for an AR-10. Might be a fun addition to the collection.
Which is exactly the same thing I was saying and have said before on such threads. That's why the idea that banning what they call assault rifles is a stupid idea. they will just use a different semi automatic weapon with similar firepower. That in no way changes the fact that as of now an AR style rifle is the gun of choice among school shooters. You act as if though each statement can not be independently true of the other. They can.
To shoot 90 rounds out of a shotgun, or ANY gun, in a minute or less, it would have to be a full automatic.
Not just any bloke can get the FFL to purchase a full auto, and anyone that alters a semi to be full is a felon withouth that FFL. The background checks are much, MUCH deeper and in depth. Most people that have the ability (license) to own a full auto are gun collectors.
FROM A TEACHER: Yesterday, I shut down class about 5 minutes early and told my students I wanted them to just sit and talk to one another. Several of them immediately opened their laptops and began navigating to their favorite computer game. I said, "No, no laptops. I want you to have face-to-face conversations right now." After a collective groan went up, I observed something both wonderful and alarming. For the next few minutes, a couple of tables came alive with conversation. They looked at each other in the eyes and talked with great enthusiasm and interest. It was beautiful to watch and listen to. However, many students were deflated. They did not know what to do without some sort of entertainment from a device. A couple of them put their heads down and avoided eye contact with anyone. I went around the room to those students and tried to engage with them. Some of them mustered a few words, but most didn't know what to do. I share this story as a wakeup call for parents, grandparents, and guardians. It's tragic to me that a large percentage of today's youth do not know how to have real conversation, but it's not their fault. It is our responsibility as adults to lead by example and hold our kids accountable. Unplug every day, talk, and listen to your children. Getting lost in a device does not help them cope with and overcome the things they're going through mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. All it causes is isolation and depression. They need relationships; they need you.
I actually enjoyed my conversations earlier w/Luke and Jester. No bickering. Just some honest dialogue and exchanging of ideas. There is no need to be in agreement, but respectful conversation is productive. I feel that you are reasonable, as well. Tired of guys hammering their own particular bias down other's throats.
I mentioned a holistic approach when talking to Luke. This takes time and money. That is something that folks don't want to hear, but we must think of our future as a society. That is why we need to do a deep dive into research. I think we need to put more effort into "profiling," just like the FBI has done w/serial killers. I think Luke was dead-on about European countries and their lack of mass murders and their gun laws. We must consider that. Just don't stop there. I do not know the answers to these questions, but we should look into political and social discord w/in those countries. Do they argue like we do about one party or another? Do their children spend as much time playing video games, on social media, watching TV, etc as our children do? What about home life? More single parent homes or not? How do our countries view education? Are class problems as wide spread as ours? What about sense of community? Stronger there or not? Do these countries have more or less separation than we do on social and political issues? What about religious beliefs. Hell, we have posters on this board who constantly paint religious people in a negative light. Do they do that in Europe? I could go on and on and on, but the point is that we need to explore as much information as we possibly can. We need to look at all the factors that we can. There is no simple answer that will solve the problem. Hell, even w/that..........will we ever solve the problem? I know that the things I am hoping for will cost untold dollars. Do we want to commit to that? Or, do we want to offer prayers and point fingers as more and more of our children are slaughtered?
This is not about mental health. It is not about guns. There are 120 guns in this country for every 100 people.
Guns are not going anywhere.
This is not partisan. Every person who has voted and every president elected and those who serve or have served in Congress. We are all guilty.
We have a $773 billion dollar defense budget. We just spent $40 billion on Ukraine aid. We developed a Covid vaccine in record time.
This is about priorities.
We the people have allowed elected officials to not be accountable. We elected them to represent "Us."
Kids in elementary school slaughtered in their classrooms. Everyone mourns. People look for answers. The gunman. Guns. Laws, police.
What is wrong with us? What are we doing?
Secure the schools. Hire the best people in security. Develop failproof systems to protect the lives of our children.
Write to your Senators, Congressmen, Governors tell them to resign if they do not act. Vote them out if they fail to act. Make sure they know that.
We can not stand for this. We can not just go back to "normal." Kids should not need "drills to protect themselves."
WE NEED TO PROTECT THEM.
I doubt there is a fail proof system, but I agree. That is why I would want 2-4 officers in schools depending on size and parents, volunteers watching doors and hallways. More eyes watching creates valuable time.
This guy apparently wrecked his car a good distance away. If you saw some guy running towards the school with a rifle and could notify the on site officers, who knows what could be prevented in total, or go a long way towards cutting casualties.
The doors were unlocked. Why? All entries should be locked except for the main entrance, and there you would have eyes on the door. The only way to prevent entry is to deny entry.
This is genius. I can definitely see this and agree wholeheartedly that some of these individuals spend increasingly more and more time on the internet without real human interaction. As much as I love YouTube and this board myself, this isn't the real world. It's perfectly fine and normal to have fun online but most of the individuals have a life offline, a family, friends, connections. When all you have is yourself and the Internet world for an extended period of time you can often have trouble relating to people and God forbid, talking about your own personal issues and vulnerabilities. The more you associate and talk with others, the more it makes someone else comfortable to share feelings they may be experiencing.
The more one shares their personal feelings over time, the more they get used to it. I can see this being an issue, particularly for men, as talking about one's feelings is often considered a faux pas in society thanks to gender roles and culture. I've also noticed that women in general seem to have more friends, talk about their interpersonal issues whereas men may have friends as well, feelings sharing is seen as a taboo subject.
I think there should be age requirements and license classifications for certain types of guns that are more dangerous than others with restrictions.
rifle/shotguns/handguns of certain types are not the same as the AR-15, and I just don't get the reasoning that they will use something else, something else may not be as lethal.
The .223/5.7 mm round that is used in AR-15 may be small, but it is pretty destructive to anything that it hits because of its velocity.
I think there should be age requirements and license classifications for certain types of guns that are more dangerous than others with restrictions.
rifle/shotguns/handguns of certain types are not the same as the AR-15, and I just don't get the reasoning that they will use something else, something else may not be as lethal.
The .223/5.7 mm round that is used in AR-15 may be small, but it is pretty destructive to anything that it hits because of its velocity.
Magazine size is also important. Time to change, is enough time to stop someone.
For the life of me, I don't understand the selling of ballistic armor to individuals.
More people are killed by .22 than other calibers.
There is nothing magical about the AR-15. Stoner designed a good tool, but it isn't some highly destructive gun. It barely meets the standards for hunting deer in some states, there's lots of guns (handguns and long guns) that are far more powerful.
Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering As police detail new timeline of mass shooting at elementary school, community members express anger and frustration
I do not know the answers to these questions, but we should look into political and social discord w/in those countries. Do they argue like we do about one party or another? Do their children spend as much time playing video games, on social media, watching TV, etc as our children do? What about home life? More single parent homes or not? How do our countries view education? Are class problems as wide spread as ours? What about sense of community? Stronger there or not? Do these countries have more or less separation than we do on social and political issues? What about religious beliefs. Hell, we have posters on this board who constantly paint religious people in a negative light. Do they do that in Europe? I could go on and on and on, but the point is that we need to explore as much information as we possibly can.
I think that information is probably out there already, but it has just never been aggregated in any meaningful way. It sounds like a worthy pursuit for a credible think tank to explore. No doubt, it would be a huge project, stacked with layers of data and tons of intersectionality, but it would be worth the effort.
Mental health issues are often times tied to illicit drug use....I have personally seen it in friends and family. Modern drug use is not the same as what people fondly remember in the 60s and 70s....yet a huge swath of society wants to push for legal pot that rots the brain and conscience....common sense gun reform? You dont get to lie on your 4473 when it comes to your drug use...piss in a cup to get your gun....pop hot for federally restricted drugs and you get denied......i can hear the 420 crowd now....pot use is huge but only a few have issues.
I’m not going to read through eight pages of the same old [censored] from the gun enthusiasts or anyone else and I likely won’t read this thread again - it’s too demoralizing. So if you have a problem with me, send me a PM.
Then again, don’t bother.
No offence to anyone here, but STFU and take a good look at the landscape.
And screw the Constitution, which never said any old asshat has the right to carry a gun, anyway, and besides, that piece of paper is centuries old. Feel free to change it when warranted.
Here’s my perspective: as I said in another thread, stop letting any old crazy get a gun without background checks. Any kind of gun. That little jerk down in Texas bought an AR-15 three days after his 18th birthday. Two weeks ago.
Stop listening to gutless politicians like Trump and Cruz and all the other ones who are afraid of hurting their election chances.
Illegalize handguns. Yeah they’ll be available on the black market, but over time, that will be less of a factor, and it’ll be harder and harder to get them. At least you’ll lessen the chances of things like this happening.
Stop letting the NRA and the gun lobby dictate control.
I don’t care about “our right to bear arms”. I’d rather arm bears.
I’m okay with it to a point, but not every American cowboy has a right to bear arms, any more than they have the right to drive a car.
This is just a perspective from a Canadian, and if you don’t like it I don’t care.
Sandy Hook, Parkland, now Texas, among many others. Y’all good with this?
Uvalde Shooter Fired Outside School for 12 Minutes Before Entering
As police detail new timeline of mass shooting at elementary school, community members express anger and frustrationBy Elizabeth Findell , Rob Copeland and Douglas BelkinUpdated May 26, 2022 4:06 pm ET link
UVALDE, Texas—The gunman behind the mass shooting at an elementary school here lingered outside the building for 12 minutes firing shots before walking into the school and barricading in a classroom where he killed 19 children and two teachers, authorities said in a news conference Thursday laying out a new timeline of events.
Victor Escalon, a regional director for the Texas Department of Public Safety, said he couldn’t say why no one stopped the now deceased gunman, 18 year-old Salvador Ramos, from entering the school during that time Tuesday. Most of the shots Ramos fired came during the first several minutes when he entered the school, Mr. Escalon said.
DPS officials previously said an armed school officer confronted Ramos as he arrived at the school. Mr. Escalon said Thursday that information was incorrect and no one encountered Ramos as he arrived at the school. “There was not an officer readily available and armed,” Mr. Escalon said.Ramos shot his grandmother Tuesday morning and then used her truck to drive to Robb Elementary School, crashing the truck into a nearby ditch at 11:28 a.m., according to the timeline laid out by Mr. Escalon. The gunman then began shooting at people at a funeral home across the street, prompting a 911 call reporting a gunman at the school at 11:30. Ramos then climbed a fence onto school grounds and began firing before walking inside, unimpeded, at 11:40. The first police arrived on the scene at 11:44 and exchanged gunfire with Ramos, who barricaded himself in a fourth-grade classroom. There, he killed the students and teachers.
A Border Patrol tactical team went into the school an hour later, around 12:40, was able to get into the classroom and kill Ramos, Mr. Escalon said.
Thursday’s updates came as Uvalde residents were asking questions and expressing anger over the time it took for law enforcement to end the school shooting. Videos circulated on social media showing parents confronting police outside the building while Ramos was barricaded in the classroom.
“The police were doing nothing,” said Angeli Rose Gomez, who after learning about the shooting drove 40 miles to Robb Elementary School, where her children are in second and third grade. “They were just standing outside the fence. They weren’t going in there or running anywhere.”
State officials have said that local police were at the school within a few minutes of the gunman entering the building and exchanged gunfire with him, but they were unable to gain access to a classroom where he barricaded himself, firing on officers.
Ms. Gomez, a farm supervisor, said that she was one of numerous parents who began encouraging—first politely, and then with more urgency—police and other law enforcement to enter the school. After a few minutes, she said, federal marshals approached her and put her in handcuffs, telling her she was being arrested for intervening in an active investigation.
Ms. Gomez convinced local Uvalde police officers whom she knew to persuade the marshals to set her free. Around her, the scene was frantic. She said she saw a father tackled and thrown to the ground by police and a third pepper-sprayed. Once freed from her cuffs, Ms. Gomez made her distance from the crowd, jumped the school fence, and ran inside to grab her two children. She sprinted out of the school with them.
Videos circulated on social media Wednesday and Thursday of frantic family members trying to get access to Robb Elementary as the attack was unfolding, some of them yelling at police who blocked them from entering.
“Shoot him or something!” a woman’s voice can be heard yelling on a video, before a man is heard saying about the officers, “They’re all just [expletive] parked outside, dude. They need to go in there.
”Parents can be heard yelling to each other that their kids were inside the school and that they needed to get in. A woman can be heard yelling at a police officer, “He’s one person! Take him out!
”The videos were collected by Storyful, a social-media research company owned byNews Corp, parent company of The Wall Street Journal.
The Uvalde Police Department couldn’t be reached for comment. A representative for the U.S. Marshals didn’t respond to a request for comment.
Asked at the press conference why law enforcement weren’t able to respond in the initial 12 minutes Ramos was outside the school, Mr. Escalon said that was part of the investigation. “Our job is to report the facts and have answers. We’re not there yet,” he said.
Texas state trooper Juan Maldonado said he went to the school with a friend whose wife was one of the teachers slain in the shooting.
He said police were already on the scene, indicating a fast response time, and that it appeared they had set up a perimeter around the building.
Mr. Maldonado said he and the friend were able to enter the building to get students out and showed cuts on his forearms that he said were from breaking windows to assist in that effort.“I don’t want to critique anything; we’re here to be supportive of the community,” he said.
After the confrontation ended with Ramos dead, school buses began to arrive to transport students from the school, according to Ms. Gomez. She said she saw police use a Taser on a local father who approached the bus to collect his child.
“They didn’t do that to the shooter, but they did that to us. That’s how it felt,” Ms. Gomez said.
Danny Ruiz, whose great-niece died in the attack, said he arrived at the school after hearing gunfire and felt grateful for the police response.
“The Border Patrol agent who took him out, to me, that guy is a hero,” said Mr. Ruiz, 51.
Thursday’s rising anger came after more than 1,000 people from this grieving city gathered Wednesday night for a prayer vigil.
“God is here with us tonight,” Pastor Tony Gruben, of Baptist Temple Church, told the people gathered at the Uvalde County Fairplex. “God still loves you and God still loves those little children.
”Community members packed the stands, spilled into the aisles and stood on the dirt rodeo floor where the ministers preached from a stage under flags of Texas and the U.S. White cowboy hats dotted the audience along with scores of maroon T-shirts that said “Uvalde Coyotes,” the high school mascot. A phalanx of police officers stood stone-faced watching the crowd, and scores of journalists from around the world aimed their cameras and beamed the scene around the globe.
President Biden and first lady Jill Biden will travel to Uvalde on Sunday to grieve with the community, the White House said.
The massacre represented the deadliest school shooting since the slayings at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., nearly 10 years ago.
—Alicia A. Caldwell and Sadie Gurman contributed to this article.
Write to Elizabeth Findell at Elizabeth.Findell@wsj.com, Rob Copeland at rob.copeland@wsj.com and Douglas Belkin at doug.belkin@wsj.com
The more one shares their personal feelings over time, the more they get used to it. I can see this being an issue, particularly for men, as talking about one's feelings is often considered a faux pas in society thanks to gender roles and culture. I've also noticed that women in general seem to have more friends, talk about their interpersonal issues whereas men may have friends as well, feelings sharing is seen as a taboo subject.
Men have buds, pals, runnin' mates, wingmen and bros: other fellows who share hobbies and interests, but very little of themselves. It's also one of the main reasons why we die on average 8-10 years earlier than our wives. #mensmentalhealth
Q: Why does the high-dollar Wall St. stock trader pay 1k/hr to see a shrink? A: Because he doesn't actually have a Real Friend to talk to who actually knows, hears, and cares about him.
It's the same reason he pays 1k/hr for 'Misty' to feign for him a version of the human intimacy he lacks in his life. They go to dinner, a show, and back to the loft for a (hollow, shallow, predictable) 'happy ending.' 5k later, he still can't get what he needs, because he can't give what is necessary in order to receive. No money in the world can fill that hole, and the hole was built into him from Day One. His only real hope for happiness or fulfilment is to do the one thing he's never been raised or trained to do.
That was just one example of the gender role issue, which I'm glad you pointed out. In every strata of society, from Wall St. to Main St. Smalltown, USA, this an issue. Guys are raised with a tool kit that is only half-full. It limits us as a society.
SOME people were raised with morals, and knowing the fact money doesn't buy happiness, it just buys stuff, and with more stuff, more money is needed.
I see it daily: The couple with a fashion mag. home, 2 new cars in the drive, a boat or r.v., or a place at the lake. (and if you have a place at "the lake" you need a boat, and a sea doo,,,,, but then 2 sea doos)
I have a friend that sold his house - $359,000, so he could (and his wife) move to "the lake". Then he found out how much it cost to live at "the lake". So he bought a different house. And he works his butt off, often times 7 days a week, 12 hours a day, so he can have his "place at the lake". he wants to come across as wealthy. As it is, he has a decent house, and a trailer at a campground near a lake.
Money, or the want of it, or the desire to look like you have it, is a bad thing.
yeah, some people have ego problems. They want to be what the aren't, but put on a huge front. Airs are just that - airs. I can spot a fake a mile away. Like the guy that brags about how many guns he has........
I'm glad I was raised how I was. Simple. I grew up thinking my parents were lower middle class, and by their lifestyle, you'd have never guessed any different.
Wife and I are low middle class, if even that high. By our lifestyle, you would guess that. And that's fine. I'm happy. Wife wants more. More what? Money ain't gonna make you happy.
What the heck was going on there? Sounds like that school and the local police force were ill prepared to handle an active shooter. I know for a fact that all of our local schools have active shooter plans, drill regularly and that all school entrances are locked and monitored at the first sign of trouble. All but the main entrances are locked for the entire school day here.
They had:
- The gunman outside the school for 12min shooting his gun - Then he was able to walk right into the school through an unlocked entrance - No police response for 14min after the 911 call - Parents were able to get into the school and remove children before the police entered the building - The Border patrol officers who took care of the situation didn't enter the building until 40min after the shooting started
It is easy to second guess what happened, we probably won’t know for a while, and some truths may be buried.
But I will ask… are we expecting to see a textbook response from a small police department who’s officers were going into a situation where they be overmatched, their pistol feels like a cap gun? And there is also also a high likelihood that they know some of the children in the school or that the children are there own.
There may have been hesitancy, “business decisions” may have been made. Doors intended to secure the children may have aided the gunman… the worse may have been over and the smart move was to wait for reinforcements.
This tragedy will haunt many for the rest of their lives.
The only way to prevent being shot is to deny gun availability....
I wish people would not say things like that. I respect your opinion, but do you really think that is the right approach when trying to convince gun owners to re-think their position? I support changing the gun laws. Things like raising the age of gun ownership and background checks. On the other hand, I understand those who are avid in protecting their rights as gun owners are afraid to concede anything because it will just lead to stricter and stricter gun laws. Denying gun availability to innocent people is not going to eliminate guns and the "bad guys" will be the ones who are able to find them, just like w/drugs. Hard line stances either way are bad ideas. Compromise is a much more effective tool when wanting to invoke change.
Yeah, I hope that all of those things from mac's article are not true. Sounds really, really bad and I won't be surprised if "race" becomes a topic of conversation moving forward.
The more one shares their personal feelings over time, the more they get used to it. I can see this being an issue, particularly for men, as talking about one's feelings is often considered a faux pas in society thanks to gender roles and culture. I've also noticed that women in general seem to have more friends, talk about their interpersonal issues whereas men may have friends as well, feelings sharing is seen as a taboo subject.
Men have buds, pals, runnin' mates, wingmen and bros: other fellows who share hobbies and interests, but very little of themselves. It's also one of the main reasons why we die on average 8-10 years earlier than our wives. #mensmentalhealth
Q: Why does the high-dollar Wall St. stock trader pay 1k/hr to see a shrink? A: Because he doesn't actually have a Real Friend to talk to who actually knows, hears, and cares about him.
It's the same reason he pays 1k/hr for 'Misty' to feign for him a version of the human intimacy he lacks in his life. They go to dinner, a show, and back to the loft for a (hollow, shallow, predictable) 'happy ending.' 5k later, he still can't get what he needs, because he can't give what is necessary in order to receive. No money in the world can fill that hole, and the hole was built into him from Day One. His only real hope for happiness or fulfilment is to do the one thing he's never been raised or trained to do.
That was just one example of the gender role issue, which I'm glad you pointed out. In every strata of society, from Wall St. to Main St. Smalltown, USA, this an issue. Guys are raised with a tool kit that is only half-full. It limits us as a society.
.02
Very astute points by both of you. I realize that your two posts and tasty's post were in response to something I said earlier, so allow me to expand just a bit. We can argue until the cows come home over guns and political affiliations. In fact, we have been arguing over those things for as long as I can remember, but the problem never goes away. Clem, you mentioned in a previous post that perhaps there are studies being done as we speak about things like profiling. If true, I would love to see more emphasis placed on trying to determine Why and how is our society producing more and more social misfits that ultimately think that mass murder is appropriate?
In the meantime, here is some friendly advice for those of you who are parents or care providers of young children. Limit the amount of time they spend on things like the computer, watching TV, playing video games, etc. Get them involved in outside activities, whether it be various sports, music, dance, etc. Spend meaningful time w/them on a daily basis. Talk to them. Provide guidance while showing that you respect their individuality. Provide a nurturing environment while teaching them the importance of responsibility and accountability. Do not make excuses for their poor behavior and do not leave them isolated for extended periods of time. My children are older, but my wife and I were very diligent about such things. I remember our kids complaining about how their friends got to play video games and watch TV a lot more than they did. We were so mean. LOL It's a big job and it requires a ton of time where you put your own desires on the back burner. However, it's worth all the time in the world. We brought these children into the world and it is our duty to raise them properly in homes that are nurturing, respectful, and loving.
go buy another gun. It really is that simple to simpletons. Buy another gun. You’ll be safe with more guns.pffft. The Simpleton’s with guns. Hurry up now simpleton’s get your guns before they take them from you. Lol
I saw someone talking about the school shooting and existing security measures the school had in effect on tik tok last night and I couldn't believe it so I looked it up on the school website.
Uvalde school district had its own police force consisting of 4 officers. This includes a Chief, a detective, and two officers. It also had (4) licensed counselors for support for the kids. Also had case managers
The school district also already had a social media monitoring service, Raptor Technologies to monitor visitors who might be sex predators, threat assessment teams, canine services to detect drugs, ammo, gunpowder and firearms.
The buildings had burglar and alarms systems, security vestibules and outdoor buzz in systems, metal detectors and the kids were supposed to be hand wand inspected when they entered the school.
They also had a locked at all times classroom policy They also list 124 security cameras, but don't say specifically if any were installed at Robb.
But it does say that Robb Elementary had a perimeter security fence and encircled the building.
Also, on a side note-this 18 yr old was arrested with the gun about 2 miles from my house.
supposedly the kid had some sort of beef in the school and went to a pawn shop in Youngstown and passed the background check and picked up his AR-15 type weapon and ammo. In talking to the kid, I believe a worker in the pawn shop found out where the kid went to school. The worker in the pawn shop knew somebody in the school and gave them a call and was told that this kid was in some [censored] at the school and was making threats-so they called the authorities and arrested the kid and are holding him without bail pending a mental eval.
The complaint says the threats caused an evacuation of the PIA School for Aviation Maintenance near the Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport on Youngstown Kingsville Road.
According to dispatchers, a call came in shortly before 4 p.m. Wednesday that a student was on his way to the school after buying a gun and two boxes of ammunition from a Youngstown pawnshop to shoot the school up.
Texas cop says officers didn't rush to find gunman because 'they could have been shot' then claims they DELIBERATELY locked inside classroom to save other students: Experts slam 'disgusting' decision that doctors say sealed the fate of injured kids
Reports I saw said while all entry doors to the school were supposed to be locked to prevent entry, the shooter found one that was not. Here is a snippet from a much longer article questioning the police response and their conflicting reports.
Quote
After crashing his truck, Ramos fired on two people coming out of a nearby funeral home, Escalon said. He then entered the school ”unobstructed” through an apparently unlocked door at about 11:40 a.m.
Texas Rep. Tony Gonzales WALKS BACK unfounded claim Uvalde gunman was arrested four years ago for plotting to shoot up school after slamming cops for letting him 'slip through the cracks'
Tony Gonzales said on Friday that Salvador Ramos was arrested four years ago when he was a juvenile
He claimed the then 14-year-old told people: 'When I'm a senior in 2022, I am going to shoot up a school'
'This wasn't hearsay. This is what I got late last night. The shooter was arrested four years ago,' he said
It was during an appearance on FOX on Friday morning at around 7.33am
DailyMail.com can confirm that two 'Columbine-infatuated' boys were arrested in 2018 over a shooting plot
However their identities are not known because they were juveniles at the time
Uvalde Police quickly denied Gonzales' claim on Friday, prompting him to walk it back an hour later
Ramos legally purchased the two AR-15s he used in the attack last week hours his 18th birthday
Yeah, like you have a permit to buy a fully automatic weapon.
Fill out the form, pay yer money... wait.. and wait.. and wait...
Transfer it to a FFL that can accept and it sits and waits for you...
If I was gonna go down that route I'd likely do a trust for it. I have friends that and all attorney type that deal with that if I need it.
Not really sure what is so funny.
I see you're no longer claiming you have a permit to buy fully automatic weapons. At least that's a step in the right direction.
When did I claim to have a permit to buy one? Quit reading what I write then making up your own story. That is why I say you are here for the fight, because that is you trying to make one.
This is what I said:
Quote
I've peeked at getting something nice in full auto, but the prices are insane for anything I would actually want to own.
The article says that we don't know the names of the 2 juveniles because their records are sealed. So we don't know that the shooter was one of them, but we don't know that he wasn't either. It is possible Gonzales got access to those records then made his statement, then realized that he shouldn't have had access to it. I don't know if accessing those inappropriately is a crime. Also, if the records were sealed, then I don't think it would come up on a background check either. Not sure
I've peeked at getting something nice in full auto, but the prices are insane for anything I would actually want to own.
Well which is it then? Were you trying to indicate you had a full auto permit or that you were considering committing a federal gun crime?
I'll let you decide.
Well duh you got me... I never thought of it that way.
I have looked at pricing. It isn't hard to find full auto for sale. Once you find what you want to fill out the forms and give em yer money. You need to list the gun you are interested in on the forms, so you have to know which one it is. If they approve your forms you get your gun. All done through a FFL with a class 3 license.
With apologies to Reagan, you seem to know a lot that isn't.
Yeah, like you have a permit to buy a fully automatic weapon.
Fill out the form, pay yer money... wait.. and wait.. and wait...
Transfer it to a FFL that can accept and it sits and waits for you...
If I was gonna go down that route I'd likely do a trust for it. I have friends that and all attorney type that deal with that if I need it.
Not really sure what is so funny.
I see you're no longer claiming you have a permit to buy fully automatic weapons. At least that's a step in the right direction.
When did I claim to have a permit to buy one? Quit reading what I write then making up your own story. That is why I say you are here for the fight, because that is you trying to make one.
This is what I said:
Quote
I've peeked at getting something nice in full auto, but the prices are insane for anything I would actually want to own.
It's what he does. He makes things up or twists your words around. When you try and point out what you actually did or did not say, he moves the goal posts. Toxic.
Still you. I never said anything about a permit. You did.
I said you have to fill out the form (Form 4 BTW) give them the money for the tax stamp ($200) and wait. And wait. And wait. My understanding is clearance is taking 12-18 months.
To fill out Form 4 you have to know what you are getting. You need the serial number, it goes on the form. You don't just ask list something you would like to have.
You still know a lot that isn't. You are still here for the fight.
Pit, Port, OCD, PS, MGH, DC, Jester, and a bunch of others...
im really struggling right now. dead ass serious. seeing so many people around the country get angry and voice more support over guns than the people that were murdered in buffalo and ulvade is really getting to me.
seeing so many people fight for a tool harder than an individual makes me want to just isolate further than i already have from society.
He's not changing anything. He "peeked", as in, 'looked into' getting a full auto whatever. He wasn't comfortable with the prices of the guns, as well as probably, the fees involved to get a FFL. So he quit looking.
I have not read all the posts .. I dont know if this was mentioned. The gun salesmen has blood on his hands. How do you sell an 18 year old two assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo in a couple days. I hope he enjoys the money he made. Sure he didnt break the law. But common sense says he should have known this wasnt right.
The guns and ammo were sold 100% legally according to the existing laws that are on the books. If it "isn't right" it should not be legal. The only thing I would hold the person who sold him the guns liable for would be IF the kid made statements that he intended to carry out such an action or made statements that he intended to commit since a violent act with those weapons and that ammunition. At that point I would consider it the gun salesman's duty to report it at the time of purchase. I have seen zero evidence that anything remotely like that happened.
I have not read all the posts .. I dont know if this was mentioned. The gun salesmen has blood on his hands. How do you sell an 18 year old two assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo in a couple days. I hope he enjoys the money he made. Sure he didnt break the law. But common sense says he should have known this wasnt right.
Fortunately, while a liquor store can lose their license for selling alcohol to a person who is too drunk - or a convenience store can lose their license for selling cigarettes to a 17yo with a fake ID -- we've been able to implement strong laws to make sure that a gun store can never have their license questioned for selling two assault rifles and a thousand rounds of ammo to a mass shooter.
I have not read all the posts .. I dont know if this was mentioned. The gun salesmen has blood on his hands. How do you sell an 18 year old two assault rifles and thousands of rounds of ammo in a couple days. I hope he enjoys the money he made. Sure he didnt break the law. But common sense says he should have known this wasnt right.
Fortunately, while a liquor store can lose their license for selling alcohol to a person who is too drunk - or a convenience store can lose their license for selling cigarettes to a 17yo with a fake ID -- we've been able to implement strong laws to make sure that a gun store can never have their license questioned for selling two assault rifles and a thousand rounds of ammo to a mass shooter.
This is not accurate. A FFL is supposed to pay attention and if there is something that indicates seling to someone that is dangerous they are obliged to report to BAFTE. FFLs have lost licenses over thing like that. And there may be state level laws that also require such, in MD there's all sorts of extra stuff.
I think there should be age requirements and license classifications for certain types of guns that are more dangerous than others with restrictions.
rifle/shotguns/handguns of certain types are not the same as the AR-15, and I just don't get the reasoning that they will use something else, something else may not be as lethal.
The .223/5.7 mm round that is used in AR-15 may be small, but it is pretty destructive to anything that it hits because of its velocity.
Magazine size is also important. Time to change, is enough time to stop someone.
For the life of me, I don't understand the selling of ballistic armor to individuals.
More people are killed by .22 than other calibers.
There is nothing magical about the AR-15. Stoner designed a good tool, but it isn't some highly destructive gun. It barely meets the standards for hunting deer in some states, there's lots of guns (handguns and long guns) that are far more powerful.
I don't believe that your .22 statement is at all accurate.
More articles on the AR-15 lethalness. It is pretty well established that it cavitates through the body.
Swish, it's sad that so many people care more about their stuff than other people. They want what they want and couldn't care less about anybody else. If it doesn't effect them personally then it just isn't a big deal. Has it always been like this? Are we just recognizing this about people because of the internet? Or is this a new phenomenon?
Regardless Swish, don't give up on the world. There will always be a-holes. But there will also always be good people too. Find the good and stick with them as you can. Ignore or laugh to yourself at the others but don't isolate yourself. It isn't healthy and you deserve better. Don't let people have that much influence over you. The only power they have over you is the power you give them.
It does look like the idea of .22LR is dated. It used to be at the top. It surprises people more because they don't realize how many are out there and that they actually kill people.
All rounds going through you have a wound channel. It can be interesting watching different rounds in ballistic gel. Again, nothing magical about an AR15. Ruger Mini-14 with nice wood furniture will deliver the same round as a typical AR-15. It performs the same when it goes though you.
It does look like the idea of .22LR is dated. It used to be at the top. It surprises people more because they don't realize how many are out there and that they actually kill people.
All rounds going through you have a wound channel. It can be interesting watching different rounds in ballistic gel. Again, nothing magical about an AR15. Ruger Mini-14 with nice wood furniture will deliver the same round as a typical AR-15. It performs the same when it goes though you.
Bloomberg's site is a biased site. It's like the Browns' telling us they have the best fans in all of football.
I wonder if their data is peer reviewed.
The data is all right there for you to download (slightly to the right just under the main banner), it is based on 274 mass shootings -- do you think they didn't happen?
No, I don't trust Bloomberg to have done proper data collection, or statistical analysis/presentation.
For instance his bought and paid for "gun policy" expert Daniel Webster admitted under oath to cherry picking statistics that showed what Everytown and Demanding Moms wanted the statistics to say while testifying in front of the MD General Assembly. Once you know the source is tainted it can't be untainted.
Just what is an assault rifle? The biggest reason assault rifle bans aren't passed is that our beloved politicians can't even define what an assault rifle is. When this was tried before, some would say any semi-automatic weapon, including shotguns and hunting rifles would qualify. Others would say a rifle with a pistol grip would be enough to qualify. Others did not know the difference between semi auto and full auto.....calling semi autos "automatic" weapons. One congressman actually said something like, "I can't define it but I know one if I see it".
If I had to define it, I would say a semi-automatic rifle with a pistol grip and easily replaceable magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds each.
Just what is an assault rifle? The biggest reason assault rifle bans aren't passed is that our beloved politicians can't even define what an assault rifle is. When this was tried before, some would say any semi-automatic weapon, including shotguns and hunting rifles would qualify. Others would say a rifle with a pistol grip would be enough to qualify. Others did not know the difference between semi auto and full auto.....calling semi autos "automatic" weapons. One congressman actually said something like, "I can't define it but I know one if I see it".
If I had to define it, I would say a semi-automatic rifle with a pistol grip and easily replaceable magazines capable of holding more than 10 rounds each.
The definition usually involves a bunch of cosmetic features. I believe here in MD they even say a bayonet lug, cause using bayonets has been the problem.
Your definition basically makes all semi-automatics with detachable magazine "assault" rifles. The best definition I have heard is "a select fire weapon used to assault a position".
It really doesn't matter though, it is a scary made up idea used by gun control groups to try and find a way to make something illegal.
![[Linked Image from 66.media.tumblr.com]](https://66.media.tumblr.com/452f4c9975d2c3174a81385fa0c031c4/tumblr_mxggf2zWn01s8hnhko1_250.gif)
...in my judgment, this story would become a major issue for discussion in our country as well as a topic of interest to most members on the DT message board.
![[Linked Image from 1.bp.blogspot.com]](https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-NbWTjZpMzM0/W_qng2RXQ_I/AAAAAAAGV3c/8tmbVDyniJQbX78WZdqyCN45xg5DMK2FQCLcBGAs/s800/395834.jpg)
What I had to say in this thread was HARDLY an example toxic masculinity. And if she is in anyway saying my comments were an attack on her, that's BS. I'm guilty of it at other times in other moments, but not in this thread. And unlike some, I acknowledge I'm a work in progress, always have.
