DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Palus Politicus Mass shootings & how politics gets in the way of solutions

lets just not train the teachers.

let's train the kids, too. that way everybody - even 8 year olds - comes to school strapped up like rambo.

Teaching kids firearms safety and how to shoot is not a bad thing.

I was on the rifle team when I was in high school and was in charge of the rifles we used, had the keys to the armory.

Where the hell did you go to school?

yea...that's terrifying. i can't believe that's a thing.

Well be careful. I mean he didn't say that the rifles were functional or that they actually fired any rifles. He'll just post innuendo and then say you're reading things into it.

The rifles were functional, hard to shoot them if they were not.

At one point I placed 32 out of 1500+ competitors in competition.

Anyone that thinks that is terrifying would have likely passed out walking the parking lot of the school. Kids routinely showed up for school after hunting in the morning. It wasn't an issue.

Sure you did. The rural school I attended looked almost empty on the first day of deer season.

It was a long long time ago, but once it was proven that Smoking causes cancer, didn't we stop allowing advertising on TV and Radio? I see that in the future for weapons such as this

You have a point?

About as much of a point as you did.

Not really in the mood for your petty little games today.

Speak plainly or take a hike.

When I was in high school a kid brought in a shotgun for demonstrating cleaning in our sports lit class. He just walked in with it and kept it in his locker. The teacher knew he was bringing it in and told him to be sure there were no shells in the case. Times have changed a little.

The title of the thread is mass shootings and how politics get in the way. Chicago is a poster child of those two things going together. It's not what you want to talk about, but it's a logical outshoot of that thread title.

I get that you are focused on the most recent event, that's natural, but it's also an example of politics getting involved in a way. The "We've got to fix this because of this particular event" approach tends to deadlock in politics. Instead an approach of we've got to fix this period and analyzing potential solutions tend to get longer lasting results. High emotions rarely lead to good decision making. It's definitely something that needs addressed, but kneejerk reactions typically have unintended consequences.

Means, motive, and opportunity are the elements that lead to crime. It seems to me that too many people are focused on the means. To me, this is problematic because the means is the easiest thing to change. I feel we should focus more on the motive part of the triad. If there is no motive, one won't go looking for means or opportunity. If one has a motive, they will find means and opportunity. What is motivating these events? How do we detect and defuse them, or prevent situations from reaching that point in the first place? How do we foster more cooperation, goodwill, and "community?"

When we were kids, we didn't produce all these mass murderers like today's society. Of course, our parents did not park us in front of video games and make tons of posts on a football site all day either. Maybe some should spend more time w/their kids instead of spreading their constant lies and hate? Just saying.

I better clarify.......I am not accusing you of that jfan. It's directed at the pathological liar on this board who has young children.

im starting to think the whole "back in my day" rhetoric is BS.

it seems to be based around nostalgia rather than fact.

example 1: when people say they miss the good days of the 50's and 60's.

good for who? certainly not the black veterans who were blocked from using their GI Bills, or segregation, or the fact that it was illegal to be in an interracial relationship. and those people never mention the fact that corporations had a government boot on their necks 24/7 by way of high taxes and regulations.

example 2: the reagan era. i'm starting to think the Boomers/Gen Xers don't actually remember much because that cocaine and hair spray was sedating yall. that's when we got trickle down economics, and our economic freedoms and purchasing power as americans have been on a downward spiral ever since.

example 3: we didn't have mass shooters.

is that true? or did the lack of connectivity through media prevent yall from hearing about it. i'm starting to believe it was because information flow back then was a lot slower than previously thought and a lot of local news stayed local, making it a lot easier to keep a lid on things.

i mean look at all these cops and politicians talking about how unfair it is to criticize law enforcement during this incident. i can't even begin to imagine what kind of crap has been covered up back in the day, and not because of some big government conspiracy, but because it was easier for some corrupt A-holes at a local level to keep their story straight and control the narrative.

I can see why you think it is BS. I actually agree w/some of the points you made--for example I despised Regan-- but bro, we didn't have near the number of mass shootings that we do today. I graduated in 1975. I don't ever remember a single time where any of us were worried about another student shooting the school up. We used to fight w/our fists and that was pretty much a daily activity.

I know you have two young daughters and I feel so bad for people like you who have to deal w/this. I taught and I know the fear my 5th grade students had when we practice for school invasions. It's horrific.

But, I'm not BSing you, bro. There were issues back then and race was certainly a thing. So was sexist behavior. Bullying was bad, but there wasn't social media. Thus, if you said something about someone, you might get your eye dotted. Clicks were a real thing. Jocks vs Freaks. I was both.. And I never used hair spray, bro. I had perfect hair. LOL

Let's stay good. I won't question your takes even if I disagree. I respect them. Respect mine, please. I don't wanna fight w/you.

There are so many things we could be doing better... there is no one solution to this problem.....

1. There needs to be armed guards at every school with proper training
2. All doors need to be locked and stay shut... and have bullet proof glass
3. We need common sense gun control.... an 18 year old should not be able to buy two AR-15s on his 18th birthday.... we need better background checks for all gun sales....
4. We need to hold parents accountable who do not secure their weapons and they get used in a mass shooting by their child...
5. We need better mental health services
6. We need to do a better job fighting the drug war (like securing our boarder)
7. We need to decrease access to violent video games to minors... there are IPad games where users can create a school shoot scenario...
8. The media needs to stop naming the shooters and sensationalizing them...
9. Social media needs to stop worry about canceling users whose beliefs they disagree with and start canceling users who truly promote violence

Just a few off the top of my head... won't get done because politicians on both sides of the aisle will keep spewing the same crap...

I agree w/much of what you say. Mostly, I agree w/that it is a multi-dimensional issue that will not be solved by changing one or two things.

Maybe noit if you are teaching them to hunt and feed themselves. Teaching them to gun tote and play gravy militia is grooming.

Like Call of Duty? Or Grand Theft Auto?

I don't think those games make kids violent. Hell, I played violent games, and watched violent cartoons on saturday mornings... Never felt the desire to get a gun and kill people, not even in the slightest. You might say a big part of it was access. I got a 410 single shot for my 15th birthday. I was trained in a gun safety course at the local hunting club before ever getting to touch it. Then, it was locked up unless I was shooting at the club or out with a responsible adult hunting. When I left for the military, a week out of high school, it was passed on to my little brother, who had the same basic experience. At no time did I ever consider anything like shooting up a school. Hell we used to have people bring their guns and bows for show and tell in high school. Friend of mine had shotguns mounted on a rack in his truck all through his last two years.

But nobody was teaching us, "F-Biden, he's not getting my guns" type crap like you see today. We would have kept a close eye on somebody like that back then. There had never been anything like columbine that I knew of. We saw a few assassinations and I think there was a Texas sniper once, that's about it. Did have a guy murdered on the same street I lived on. but he was at least two or three blocks away, and only the cops got the details. So no, no crap like that.


Also, we grew up with BB and Pellet guns. We knew at an early age what it was to kill. We hunted and fished, but senseless killing of birds and such, for target practice or thrills was not something you seen much of. We all carried knives, made nunchucks, quarterstaffs, and bolas. We could all set a snare trap and a steel trap. But again, we never killed or thought about killing anyone. It was unimaginable for us.

On the other hand, guns have been around for a long time. The Republicans have been around for a long time. At no point have I ever wanted to kill another person. In fact, most people who are on the right, or fascists as you label them, don't want to kill people. Most gun owners do not want to kill people.

I do think that these violent video games that reward kids for killing people are probably not a good thing. And again, I think a lot of lazy ass parents or parent in many cases shove their all-too-willing kids in front of a video game so they can pursue their own activities is a huge problem w/in our society.

I really don't see how that any rational person can believe that glorifying death, dismissing the importance of life, and reducing the amount of human interaction and compassion is a good thing for society. But, y'all just keep trying to simplify things along party lines and political ideals and this will all magically disappear.

Right!

Old school republicans didn't act like or do the things you see today. Sure, people expected their guns, but as a kid I don't ever remember anyone being worried they would lose them. I label fascist - fascist, get that straight. I have nothing against conservatives. I have nothing against republicans that don't act like Trumpians or the Q zoo. I have nothing against gun ownership for hunting or home defense. I do not think ARs should be legal. But sell those 18 year olds all the black powder or single shot weapons you want, no issues by me. But when we get into rapid fire capacity, I think there should be reasonable limitations. Insurance companies
charge young men more for car insurance because they know the average boy at 16 is an idiot. They don't drop the higher rate until they turn 25, if they were forced to issue liability insurance for gun owners (like when driving), I bet not many under 25 would get that gun. The insurance would be higher and they would consider all the data they had on you to decide the risk you represent, maybe we should go to single payer healthcare and let those insurance companies losing out, regulate guns by imposing insured registration.

Oh, and from your tone, I can tell you been at it in here today. I don't have time nor desire to go there, so if you don't want to just talk, then... bye felicia.

More than a couple of truths in that soliloquy. I will leave it at that other than to say that glorifying death is a problem.

I agree that video games don't make kids violent... but 1st graders shouldn't have access to video games that promote shooting or even school shootings..... a popular game with my 7 year old and all his friends is Roblox which allows users to create their own games... there are several first person shooting games on there including school shooting games...

Also, in this day and age I don't think any prepubescent boy should be playing a first person shooting game where there are shooting other people...

When did I glorify death? Are you drinking?

What? I was talking about the video games.

Look, if you just want to fight.......I'm out. Don't go 888 on me.

Wasn't trying to fight, trying to understand what the hell you meant by that. I have just got in here for the first time today and still have 50+ posts to scan.

Fair warning.........you are not going to like my reply to you on the Memorial Day thread. LOL. But dude......seriously? All that hate is not good for the heart.

I'm so sick of seeing this same ole same ole every damn day, you don't even know. And those small children being killed and the callous right acting flippant about it because they are scared to death the left wants to take their guns... it grinds hard on my psyche. If we can't protect our kids, what the hell is the point of anything? Civilization? Really?

Most of the left that I know, has zero intention of EVER going aver all the guns or even most the guns... I don't want to make any guns unavailable for purchase, but I absolutely want some common sense gun regulations. And I would like to see rapid fire capacity require something extra to thin the idiots having access. Maybe a special permit, like if you own a wild beast? or Special proof of insurance. I honestly think liability insurance is a reasonable ask. And that insurance won't bring kids back to life, but if the financial pain is bad enough after a mass shooting incident, they will find ways to lower those risks. It's who they are and what they do. So maybe we should put it into their hands? just a thought.

I agree w/your sentiment. I do not agree w/your assignment of blame. To think that stricter gun laws alone will diminish the amount of mass murders is delusional. Bad guys get guns. Just like folks get illegal drugs. The supply has been established.

And once again before Pit or 888 misquote me..........I am NOT against stricter gun laws. Raise the age. More comprehensive background checks. Cool. But, it goes way beyond that. We are raising and nurturing social misfits. We bring more hate to the table than any nation I know of. It's the perfect storm.

None of us have the answers, but we never will if we can't agree across the board that we must protect school kids. We must protect people in churches, at work, and on the streets too. But I thin a good first step is trying to get everybody to agree that we must protect the kids, period. I've already had one poster tell me, his guns were more important than the lives of those kids... of course that sent me full tilt.

Guess you did come at me in that thread, lol. I was driving home a point. It's going to happen. And I really don't spend much time in here on a daily basis. I click into the site a few times a day, some days not at all, somedays I do spend a good bit of time in here, but they are farther and fewer apart these days. If something big happens I like to come in for the fireworks and see what is being said by both sides, and those not attached to either. But honestly, I'd say I average about an hour a day, less than two usually.

BTW - you are right, I can be a hateful grumpy SOB on the political and social media fronts. But that is far from who I am in day to day life. I can get pretty damn amped up on some topics, and the teeth and claws come out... sometimes a straight up shank. But many of my post are seen as mean because I'm laughing at or making fun other's views. As far as I'm concerned, that's part of the game. If you skin is thin, PP ain't for you. But there are only a few on here that I really have trouble tolerating or getting along with, and that's usually because we are polar opposites and the have somehow irked me more than a little.

For instance, a good while back I went off on arch. It was too far, and I genuinely felt bad for it. I did try to make amends, to no avail. But after going back a forth with him a few times, and many weirdly coincidental mini bans... I decided that he and I will never get along well enough to have a decent conversation. He's on ignore, once in a while I read what he has to say, but I have stopped responding. He's far from being a bad guy, but his thing is to pull loose threads, poke, and prod to manipulate the conversation and attack you with whatever he twists your words into. I don't think much of those tactics. I'd rather a guy just say whatever is on his mind, get it out there, and move on. So, I just don't engage. He has a lot of nice things to say about me in almost every thread. I don't know why it bothers him that I ignore his posts, but it sure seems to for some reason.

Just like what you said to me, that you warned me about... I couldn't care less about that kind of post. You said what was on your mind. You criticized me, but I'm ok with that. Nobody is perfect. And I've always been oldcolddawg, never mincing words, saying whats on my mind and moving on. I don't hold a single grudge toward anybody in here, because I say whatever I have to say, get it off my chest in the moment, and move on. A few guys can't stand me, and I'm perfectly fine with that. But there are also a few who like me and we get along fine. Hell, me and pit go at each other from time to time and he's my boy. Others too. Just because we vote blue, doesn't mean we see eye to eye even half the time.

When we were kids AR-15’s and AK-47’s were not able to be purchased.

Let me expand on one thought; bad guys do get guns, yes. But the average mass shooter, especially school shooters are very young. They are usually NOT hardened criminals, but kids who have either been radicalized over ideas they can't even really grasp or they have some sort of mental issue. I think some are bullied, treated bad in the school, have crap home lives or nobody gives a damn about them... They are not inherently evil, but the resulting actions of whatever triggers them to do these things are. I can't help but think we could do better at identifying these people. If facebook were a school, the data collected would damn sure help you pinpoint most at danger of doing something like this, and appropriate mental help could get things under control. I use facebook as an example of what could be done with data, not a moral example for sure.

And that could easily look like a Big Brother state, so not going there... But at all points these kids are interacting with adults who are responsible for them, are opportunities missed if they are not paying the right kind of attention. Maybe more student advocacy for the at risk kids. Of course, this will never stop them all, all the time, but avoiding the next one at any cost should always be the goal IMO.

You Are a violent person. And you've bragged about how tough you were when put in prison in Mexico. You've made threats, challenged people.

Sorry bud, you are exactly what you claim you aren't.

oh broskie i wasn't calling you out or anything like that. i was just making a general point that sometimes when we think "back in my day" when it comes to issues, those times were based in the moment from a individual perspective.

i'll use a more personal example as well:

when i joined the army, all the older NCO's would go "oh this new army is different. this must be the new army blah blah blah".

8 years later when i'm getting out, the same guys i came in with are now looking at all the new soldiers and how they act going "oh this must be the new army, blah blah blah".

it's no different than the guys who are always like "i dont recognize my country anymore!!" well, did they actually ever recognize america for what it is in the first place? if we buy into that nostalgia, then guess what happens?

this country has apparently been going to sh... since 1776.

i have no doubt that mass shootings have gotten EXTREMELY worse since after the columbine shooting. i was simply pushing back on the idea that it wasn't a thing prior to the more recent events. the reason why is because the overall violence in this country has been trending down for years. so we get more clumps of violent incidents in modern times. but that ALSO means that because of those trends, violence was more common back in the day, but it was spread out throughout the country.

That's fair. We're good.

Now the idiot is saying 9mm handguns are high Calibur weapons that need to be banned.

I honestly think the people are trying to legislate people in to felons so they can't vote. This county is on the brink.

Or is it already over the hill and now picking up speed?