Don't you find it a bit funny that someone is going around trying to equate unwanted sexual advances, rubbing one's genitals on someone else and traumatizing women to "having sex with a lot of women"? Minimizing the acts of a perpetrator does seems to be the go to for some.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.
The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.
This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.
I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.
The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.
This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.
I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.
So, oober was butt hurt because you presented him with facts? Do you think all the people that are annoyed with your continuous snotty, antagonistic posts are butt hurt?
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul. - John Muir
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.
The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.
This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.
I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.
So, oober was butt hurt because you presented him with facts? Do you think all the people that are annoyed with your continuous snotty, antagonistic posts are butt hurt?
The 24 Deshaun Watson trials present a key evidence question: Can evidence of other allegations be introduced?
Posted by Mike Florio on June 4, 2022, 1:24 PM EDT link
The 24 cases pending against Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson will be resolved via 24 trials. In each of those trials, a key question of evidence will need to be addressed. And the answer will dramatically impact the length of each trial.
How much, if any, evidence of the other claims made against Watson will be admissible in each trial?
During Friday’s interview with Sports Radio 610 in Houston, attorney Rusty Hardin addressed that complication, within the context of whether they believed that the trial of the claims made by Ashley Solis could happen between mid-July and the start of training camp. (The parties have agreed that there will be no trials between August 1 and March 1.)
“We’ll do Solis if you will agree that you’re not going to try to introduce the evidence of the other 21 in this trial and let the allegations and the evidence stand alone on this one case,” Hardin said regarding his communications with attorney Tony Buzbee. “Because if you’re going to try to get all these other cases in to poison the water and the judge rules that you can, there’s no way these cases will not take several months to try. . . . You would have like 21 mini-trials.”
Hardin said Buzbee wouldn’t agree to that. Which means that a ruling from the trial judge in each case will be necessary as to whether evidence of other allegations can be introduced in any, some, or all of the cases.
It’s an issue arising squarely under what’s widely known as Rule 404(b) of the various rules of evidence, federal or state. Rule 404(b) generally prohibits evidence “of any other crime, wrong, or act . . . to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.” In other words, evidence of other allegations against Watson can’t be used for the purposes of arguing to the jury, “If he’s accused of doing it in all these other cases, he must have done it here.”
Rule 404(b) contains a key exception: “This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.”
That’s where Buzbee may have an opening. He’ll argue not that he’s using the other claims in an effort to get the jury to think that, for example, 24 people can’t all be wrong or lying or conspiring (although it’s a key collateral benefit) but that the claims go to the question of Watson’s motive, intent, preparation, plan, the absence of mistake, and/or the lack of accident.
For example, to the extent that Buzbee will try to prove that Watson arranged massages with so many different women with the intention that those massages would become sexual and the plan to try to make that happen through his words and actions during the massages, that evidence would go directly Watson’s motive and intent in arranging each of the sessions.
Hardin’s best practical argument against 404(b) evidence is the threat/promise of the 21 mini-trials! No judge wants to preside over a case that spirals out of control, with multiple other plaintiffs testifying and being cross-examined and a one-week trial literally requiring, as Hardin said, several months. Each trial could potentially become as convoluted as the Seinfeld finale.
That said, there’s surely a more economical way to do it. The answer could be driven by the specific defense that Watson, through Hardin, employs. If Watson ultimately admits (as Hardin seemed to do on Friday) that he arranged massages with the hope that they would become sexual and that he tried to steer things that way, the fact that he allegedly crossed the line with others becomes less relevant. If, however, Watson tries to say that he had no desire or plan or motive or intent to secure any sexual activity under the guise of a legitimate massage and that any conduct suggestion otherwise was a mere mistake or accident, the door flies open to Buzbee’s ability to show out often Watson engaged in that supposedly accidental behavior.
For example, if an alleged shoplifter claims that a candy bar fell into his pocket when he accidentally brushed against the display, the fact that he had been accused by 23 other stores of shoplifting and used that same defense in every single instance makes the other claims relevant to proving that there was no accident.
That’s why Hardin’s comments from Friday are so important. Even though he won’t be testifying at trial, he’ll be the architect of the defense. At some point, he’ll need to put his cards on the table. Will Watson admit he was hoping the massages would become sexual and that he actively tried to make that happen? Or will Watson insist that he did nothing of the sort, ever? Those and other specific strategies will shape the question of whether Rule 404(b) evidence eventually is allowed at one or more or all of the trials.
There’s another important wrinkle here. The ruling made in the first of the 24 cases quite possibly will be appealed through the Texas court system. The judges presiding over the other 23 cases may decide to press pause on all of them until the appellate process is resolved and a conclusive answer is obtained. This would delay the entire litigation by months, if not years.
So, yes, Watson should have settled these cases last April. Or last October. Or in March, when he was traded to Cleveland. Or right now.
That will be the first big battle. The pre-trial motions made before the judge set the parameters of what can be brought in to evidence, testimony, etc. and what will be suppressed during the trial.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Interesting conversation with Peter King and Mike Florio, especially since Florio was an attorney in civil cases for twenty years. I think his comments from the 9:00 mark tell a pretty accurate story of what we'll see. Hopefully not the last part though. As he goes into the fact that this will likely play out over two seasons, his opinion is that the NFL should just suspend him now until all the cases are resolved; or in his words, "suspend him for the whole year and let him focus on these cases and just get these damned cases behind him". If I can separate my "fandom" from the best way forward... that's actually the best way for the league to respond.
What was mentioned earlier in the year about these cases.....that the earliest they could go to court is 2023 IF they will be tried?
So sitting out this year to handle these cases is Florio's suggestion.... but if Watson is claiming his innocence and this goes on into 2023 the same approach would apply? Nah, I don't think that makes sense. Watson's lawyers are "handling" these cases. Watson's daily/weekly/monthly involvement undoubtedly pales in comparison to what his team will do so this mindset from Florio that Watson needs to drop everything and work on these cases seems a bit ridiculous to me.
Look... If the NFL wants to suspend him now, then they'll suspend him now. If they want to wait, they will wait. But Watson will be playing football if he can....and I'm guessing won't pause is life/career to work on these cases when he is paying people to do so on his behalf.
JMO.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
Florio has been riding Watson almost daily for quite some time. Personally, I don't think a man should be punished so harshly before his guilt has been legally determined.
His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.
13 teams inquired about Watson. Four teams submitted pre-qualified bids for his service. So, please spare me about Haslam and Cleveland.
Media loves content. Something to talk about. It is interesting how the spotlight is shined. The Kraft and Snyder cases got buried quick. Kraft paid and all went dark. Maybe I missed it. Was there any public interviews with anyone? Never heard any details about old Krafty. Snyder a total scumbag is still being protected undercover by the owners. A case where rampant sexual harrassment was part of the culture.
IMO DW should settle every case no matter the cost. In the end civil cases are about compensation not guilt or innocence. He is going to pay no matter what. He should cut his loses and legal fees.
Once that is done. He should work on his reputation. He is going to play football for ten or more years. Over that time what he does as a celebrity and member of the Cleveland community will go a long way as his career moves forward.
It will be interesting over time to see how he is viewed. If suspended will that be enough? How will people react if he serves a suspension? Will it be like a criminal who served his time? OK he served his sentence justice was served. Or, is he forever guilty and no matter what he is scum?
It seems people just wish this would all go away and pretending this won't be an issue for years to come is their best way of hoping that's so. Well it won't.
Question, what if watson's suspension is about the cases they already know about and then more cases come afterwords? Yeah, this isn't going away and as times passes only gets worse.
Just last week another case. Just last week watson's lawyer steps in it. Just last week it was announced another lawsuit would be filed this week. And yet denial still rears its ugly head.
And the entire "Florio is picking on him" angle is new but yet so shallow. You know what they say. If you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder if these late additions to the lawsuit that sound far-fetched will aide or hinder the original lawsuits? I don't mean in the court of public opinion because a lot of folks have already decided on whether or not he is guilty, but rather in the actual courtroom.
I'm starting to think Watson ultimately settles out of court and puts this all behind him at some point. Fighting each case in court individually could go on and on for years to come.
Roethlisberger had a civil suit filed against him in 2009 stemming from the alleged rape at a Lake Tahoe hotel in 2008. The civil suit was not settled until January 2012 and that was just one civil suit.
His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.
I haven't seen what Peter King has said. But as a sport journalist I've always liked PK and thought he was dialled in pretty well to what was going on across the NFL. Seems like it would be uncharacteristic for him to do a hatchet job and spew hate for the sake of clicks. He's always seemed to have a soft spot for the Browns too. If I get time I will go see if I can find it... if it's posted on the thread I'll have to go back pages to find it.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
Let's face it. It's not about the reporters as it pertains to their accuracy or reputations. Such comments are being based on what it is they're reporting. If they don't like the message they shoot the messenger.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
I do not think a settlement would have a more harsh impact on his suspension. The NFL has never suspended a player based on the outcome of a civil suit.
However, I can envision a scenario where the longer this drags on and more and more cases surface, Watson may be suspended longer because the NFL brand is tied to this as well. My guess is the NFL would prefer to have this all resolved instead of the lead story in the NFL.
DEFCON 1 scenario: Goodell reconsiders and puts Watson on the Commissioner's NFL Exempt list and the NFL decides not to make its final suspension ruling until all the civil suits are resolved.
His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.
13 teams inquired about Watson. Four teams submitted pre-qualified bids for his service. So, please spare me about Haslam and Cleveland.
And none of that makes it a better decision, nor does any of it lessen it, and handing over a fully-guaranteed quarter billion dollar contract as part of it definitely doesn't help it.
Other people being willing to make a bad decision doesn't make that bad decision a good decision.
#dontdrinkthekoolaid
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
He singled out Haslam which I think is not fair right or wrong.
I don't think Haslam is any different than the other owners. It does not bother me that he feels it is a bad decision. The point is any number of teams were willing to sign him as well.
I am not defending Haslam but to single him out is wrong.
There is a long game here. No matter what happens people get second chances all the time. Deshaun Watson will be playing more than likely over ten years. He is 26. Most of his life is in front of him. If he gets suspended or not his life goes on. If he settles some will never forgive. If he is suspended serves the suspension and comes back. Some may again never forgive.
Others may not give a damn either way. Some may wait and see what he does going forward. Others may only care about how he plays on Sundays.
All are legit.
Haslam looked at it and decided Baker went as far as he could go. Watson was an obvious upgrade with his prime in front of him. He knew he would never get a chance to get a guy like him. He also considered where the roster was as far as good talented players in their prime. He did his research. He made the decision to go after him. If there are those who wish to fault him for his decision. Totally fair. Haslam saw an opportunity to improve the team and contend for a championship. Some will agree others will not. I can not say what Haslam actually thinks about Watson as a person.
What I do see is that the NFL is a business and business decisions are made all the time. Many of those decisions are far from fair.
Going back and reading my post, I want to make sure it's not misinterpreted in relation to Florio's comments: As he goes into the fact that this will likely play out over two seasons, his opinion is that the NFL should just suspend him now until all the cases are resolved; or in his words, "suspend him for the whole year and let him focus on these cases and just get these damned cases behind him". If I can separate my "fandom" from the best way forward... that's actually the best way for the league to respond.
*It's not what I want (before that gets twisted). *I'm not saying it's fair.
I'm simply saying that the league is between a rock and a hard place. Wait too long = you don't take it seriously. Do something too soon = you didn't wait for all the evidence. Meanwhile, the dirty laundry airs for months, if not years, and the league is constantly held accountable (in the eyes of many) regardless of what they do. It's the easy way out; and really, nobody can complain, it's not their fault this dude caught 24 cases.
Next: It would definitely be better in the eyes of the league AND the Browns if Watson settled. He's got 250 million, we're probably talking about 3-5. I'm sure there are many around him urging him to go back down that road. To be frank, I would guess that Buzbee will provide a constant stream of "yuk" in an effort to get him to sit back down at the table. Problem is, he's also going to be charging an @sshole tax since his time was wasted the first go-round. Loosen up whatever is wrong with the NDA, it's all getting "disclosed" in the media anyway.
Lastly, as it pertains to how "terrible and unfair" Peter King is... I don't care if the entire league wanted Watson and there was a 32 way bidding war...
The team that got him:
Gave him the largest (by a landslide) guarantee in NFL history. To the tune of 1/4 BILLION. With language that eliminates any financial punishment if he is suspended. With a mortgage of the future in respect to assets traded...
With (then) twenty-two cases of sexual misconduct unresolved.
I suspect King would be saying the same exact thing regardless of which team won the sweepstakes. This isn't somebody picking on the "poor ol' Browns".
This whole Deshaun Watson case reminds me a lot of the "cast the first stone" part in the Bible. (looked it up, it's John 8,7)
John 8 2: And early in the morning He came into the temple, (Jesus) and all the people came unto him: and he sat down and taught them. 3. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They said unto him, Master this woman was taken in adultery in the very act. 5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? 6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. as though he heard them not. 7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. 9. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. I0. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? II. She said No man, Lord, and Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
(Let he that is without sin among you cast the first stone.)
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
Forget about Watson until 2023, maybe even 2024. Just saying. Right now from a Browns perspective only a financial settlement can save a Happy Ending. From a serious perspective it’s so tragic and it has been handled so incompetent that the only thing I can do is laugh.
A more legit and serious question is who’s going to first leave the Browns. Andrew Berry or Baker Mayfield? (unthinkable only a few hours ago but right now I wouldn’t bet against it) Rich Eisen
I disagree w/your take, but that's okay. I understand why you may think that way and I won't call you names over it. I just think that the NFL should hand down a minimal suspension to appease the vultures for a bit and then make a final determination after all the facts come out. I will never ever believe that punishing a person before he is legally convicted is a good idea.
Anyway. "I just think that the NFL should hand down a minimal suspension to appease the vultures for a bit and then make a final determination after all the facts come out."
That wouldn't be a terrible route to go. Four game suspension to "appease" with the caveat that another suspension may be coming after the cases are settled. Make no mistake though, he's getting suspended, and it has nothing to do with any legal conviction.
LOL.........no, sorry. You didn't call anyone names. I was referring to the gang over on the other forum where that is a common practice.
Yeah, it looks like they have no choice but to suspend him. I think 4 games will suffice for now and they can issue a statement about handing down a stiffer punishment if the facts warrant it. Btw---------I wasn't trying to change your mind. I respect your opinion. Just giving you my take. We all have opinions and disagreeing in a friendly manner is a good thing.
Florio has been riding Watson almost daily for quite some time. Personally, I don't think a man should be punished so harshly before his guilt has been legally determined.
I agree it a traditional sense, but the league isn't so much looking at punishment from a legal standpoint, they are looking at the conduct policy. The parameters set by that are much wider than the actual court outcome.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Purp brought up a very good point. The NFL has spent years developing the brand to the female audience. At this point it would be hard to imagine that no suspension could be a result.
This lawyer for DW has been not very good. In fact I am surprised that Haslam is not involved with his legal team and a PR company.
I do not want to sound insensitive to the accusers or the seriousness of the accusations. But I saw the beginning of the Rich Eisen show where he started with how vile the lastest accusation was. My thought was it was sex. I have no idea how the accuser was so close to him masterbating? If he was naked and etc. Why remain in the room? Tell him to get dressed and walk out. I can only think if I was in that position what I would do if I were her or any women in a situation like that. "Get dressed and leave or I will call the police and have you removed. Never contact me me again."
In the end this is about sex. As soon as you are not comfortable stop it. The line in the sand is force or any type of violence to another.
The investigations into the allegations has been going on for over a year. It has been done by the grand jury prosecutors, the local police, the Haslam hired team, and the NFL. They should be able to come to some conclusion.
DW IMO has to settle these cases ASAP. Take whatever is decided and work on doing everything possible to prove to everyone that you can be a good man. Be truthful to yourself and do all you can to become a good man.
Could 24th lawsuit against Deshaun Watson eventually allow Browns to void his guarantees?
Posted by Mike Florio on June 7, 2022, 6:43 AM EDT PFT
Perhaps the most significant development from Monday in the Deshaun Watson situation was no development at all. Specifically, the lack of a response from Watson’s team to the 24th lawsuit could end up creating significant consequences for Watson with the league and/or the team.
Attorney Rusty Hardin issued a statement on Monday indicating that he’s unable to respond to the 24th lawsuit because “our legal team has not had time to investigate this new filing and had not heard her name until today.”
There’s an important distinction between not hearing her name and not being aware of her potential claims. The early stages of the civil litigation against Watson featured a delicate and convoluted guessing game as to who the plaintiffs were, because they initially sued under the Jane Doe pseudonym. The effort to identify potential plaintiffs potentially included a person whose name Watson didn’t know or remember who eventually would make the claims reduced to writing in the lawsuit filed Monday. Hardin’s statement says only that they hadn’t heard the person’s name until Monday; it’s possible they knew, via aggressive questioning of their own client, that there was a 24th interaction that could have resulted in a claim being made.
That’s important for multiple reasons. First, if this person whose name previously wasn’t known to Watson’s legal team now files a criminal complaint, the allegations could be submitted to another grand jury. And the graphic details contained in the 24th complaint, if repeated to a grand jury and accepted by the grand jury, could result in an indictment. (Although I’ve tried to avoid repeating the graphic details, the 24th plaintiff contends that, after trying to get the plaintiff to to touch his penis and asking her “where do you want me to put it?” he ejaculated — and “some of his ejaculate got on Plaintiff’s chest and face.”)
Second, if Watson eventually is suspended for the conduct alleged in the 24th lawsuit, the Browns possibly will be able to void his guarantees and move on from him, and possibly to recover a significant portion of his signing bonus.
As explained in early April, after we obtained a full copy of Watson’s contract, the contract exempts from the standard default/guarantee void language a suspension imposed by the league “solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to paragraph 42 and such suspension results in Player’s unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years.”
In paragraph 42 of the contract, Watson “represents and warrants (except as disclosed to club in writing), as of the date hereof, that (i) Player has not been charged with, indicted for, convicted of or pled nolo contende to any felony and/or misdemeanor involving fraud or moral turpitude, (ii) Player has not engaged in conduct which would subject him to a charge, indictment or conviction of any such offense, and (iii) no circumstances exist that would prevent Player’s continuing availability to the Club for the duration of this Contract.”
The written disclosure was not attached to the contract. A source with knowledge of the document told us in April that it’s a “fair assumption” that it refers to the 22 pending civil lawsuits.
The question now becomes whether it was written broadly enough to encompass individuals who had not previously come forward, either with a lawsuit, a criminal complaint, or some other public statement. The plaintiff who sued last week, for example, was known to Watson’s camp because she did a podcast interview last August. Based on Hardin’s statement, they didn’t know the name of the person who filed the 24th lawsuit until Monday.
Beyond the question of whether the 24th plaintiff’s claims could potentially fall beyond the language of the exception to the default language in Watson’s contract is the basic reality that Watson ultimately could be suspended at some point after 2022 and 2023. Without any clear indication as to when the NFL will act against Watson and with literally two dozen lawsuits that will work their way through the legal system (with August 1 through March 1 out of bounds for any of the trials), if the league either defers all punishment until the cases are over (not likely) or imposes a preliminary suspension now and leaves the door open for another suspension based on the outcomes of the cases (a reasonable middle ground), Watson could still face a suspension in 2024 or beyond.
Then there’s the possibility that still can’t be ignored of the NFL changing its position on paid leave. Although Commissioner Roger Goodell removed paid leave from the table in late March, recent developments could put it back in play. When we asked the league that very specific question on Monday — a question the Commissioner freely answered in March — the league had no comment.
So we’ll see how it all plays out. For the first time since the flurry of lawsuits was filed in 2021, however, a case will play out involving a person whose name wasn’t previously known to Watson’s camp. That could (not will, but could) potentially create major problems for Watson, in multiple ways.
The Browns would still lose the boatload of picks they traded for him.
That would be a very Browns thing to do ......
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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