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Posted By: Dave Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 02:14 PM
"Deshaun Watson Again" thread locked up in Pure Football ... continue here.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 03:16 PM
In case anyone missed it, the following article, posted by Mac, was the last topic of conversation on the locked Watson thread:

********************

Deshaun Watson’s alleged $5,000 payment to spa owner under scrutiny in massage cases

Brent Schrotenboer, USA TODAY
Wed, June 1, 2022, 5:02 PM·5 min read


A Houston spa owner recently testified that Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson gave her $5,000, and the reason for it was simply because “he’s a nice person,” according to a deposition transcript obtained by USA TODAY Sports.

The spa owner, Dionne Louis, facilitated massages for Watson and helped provide him with women, according to a new lawsuit filed Tuesday against Watson. And now that payment – and why he gave it to her – have come under new scrutiny as Watson faces lawsuits from 23 women who accuse him of sexual misconduct during massage sessions from early 2020 to March 2021.

At least three of the 23 plaintiffs worked for Louis or were otherwise associated with her, according to court records. Louis, who owns “A New U Salon Spa” in Houston, described one of those three plaintiffs as her cousin, a woman who accused Watson of trying to force her to perform oral sex in 2020. Watson, 26, has denied wrongdoing but could be suspended by the NFL if he is found to have violated the league’s personal conduct policy.

Louis “has been identified by several Plaintiffs as someone who was instrumental in setting up the massages between them and Deshaun Watson at her place of business – A New U Spa – knowing full well that she was sending them into danger and knowing that Deshaun Watson was looking for sexual activity rather than a professional massage,” according to court records filed in December by plaintiffs attorney Tony Buzbee.

Louis’ role in Watson’s massages also was cited in a new lawsuit filed Tuesday by the 23rd plaintiff, who worked for Louis at her spa until she said she decided to quit after her third encounter with Watson.

“A New U Salon Spa provided women for Watson,” the woman's lawsuit states. “Dionne Louis, the owner of the spa, facilitated massages for Watson and knew Watson was attempting to have sex with them. Plaintiff expressed her concerns about Watson to Ms. Louis. Louis brushed the concerns off. It was later learned that Watson paid Dionne Louis at least five thousand dollars for Louis’s 'work.’”

Reached by phone Tuesday, Louis told USA TODAY Sports, “All of that is ludicrous.”

Louis also said the newest plaintiff “has a pattern of doing this type of stuff.” She referred questions about the $5,000 to her attorney, who said he doesn’t comment on pending litigation.

Earlier this year, Watson admitted in written questions that the office of his attorney, Rusty Hardin, helped Louis find a lawyer but denied that her lawyer's fees were being paid by him or Hardin.

Louis has been described by the plaintiffs’ attorneys as an uncooperative witness, and the new lawsuit describes her as “very proud to have Watson as a client.” A footnote in the new lawsuit also stated that Louis pleaded the protections of the Fifth Amendment when asked for text messages between her and Watson.

“Louis had emphasized to Plaintiff that she needed to keep Watson happy,” the newest lawsuit states.

Louis testified in a pretrial deposition in May, when she was asked about the $5,000 payment.

“Did you do something for that?” Buzbee asked, according to the partial transcript obtained by USA TODAY Sports.

“What you mean did I do something for it?” Louis replied. “He's a nice person. Like I was in the struggle with COVID, so ...”

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She said Watson gave her money only once, according to the transcript.

“And he just gave you that because he was a nice guy?” Buzbee asked.

“Yes,” she replied.

“OK. Because you asked for it?” Buzbee asked.

“Well, it was COVID and it was – he was blessing everybody,” Louis replied. “He had told me a story he blessed some cafeteria workers. He was a nice guy, really, really nice guy.”

She said she needed equipment for her spa: a “butt vacuum machine” that helps with cellulite and a “cryo machine.” But she testified she was having a hard time because of the COVID-19 pandemic and that Watson agreed to help her with $5,000. Her mention of cafeteria workers is an apparent reference to 2017, when Watson donated his first game check to cafeteria employees affected by the devastation of Hurricane Harvey.

An exhibit attached to the 23rd lawsuit filed Tuesday shows an apparent screen shot of a Cash App receipt for $5,000 from Watson to Louis, with the description “for machine.” It's dated Nov. 14 and came in 2020, Buzbee said.

Underneath the receipt, Louis apparently writes to a third party that she wanted $20,000 from Watson but got $5,000. The third party was a woman who became a plaintiff in these cases, according to the transcript. The first lawsuits were filed against Watson in March 2021.

“I told you I’ll show you how to get money from men that’s my specialty,” Louis wrote, according to the exhibit filed in court.

In her deposition in May, Louis said she didn’t remember writing that.

Hardin, Watson’s attorney, said the women are lying and out for money. When asked for comment about Louis and the $5,000, Hardin didn't answer those questions and instead ripped the new plaintiff's credibility, saying she has a vendetta against Watson and has "been acting crazy about Deshaun since November of 2020."

Two grand juries considered 10 combined complaints filed against Watson but declined to indict him on criminal charges. In a previous statement, Hardin noted that only three of the lawsuits “involve any allegation of force.” The others generally describe encounters in which they say Watson exposed himself and caused his genitals to touch them.

“As we’ve said, as Deshaun has insisted under oath, each of those three occasions were consensual and instituted by the women,” Hardin’s statement said last week.

The women say it wasn’t consensual, and one of the three plaintiffs who accuses Watson of sexual assault or coercion is described as the cousin of Louis.

The newest plaintiff said in her lawsuit “she could not refuse Watson as a client because of her boss Dionne Louis.”

Watson recently was traded from the Houston Texans to the Browns, which gave him a record guaranteed contract of $230 million over five years.

Follow reporter Brent Schrotenboer @Schrotenboer. E-mail: bschrotenb@usatoday.com
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 03:35 PM
Without getting into all the specifics with this particular accuser, there have been numerous indications that "therapists" in the Houston area work under a system of referrals. Many have stated that it's the easiest way to do business as a simple text or call from a person like Dionne Louis can immediately confirm availability and schedule an appointment. One of the first accusers (the very first IIRC) stated that she met Watson under the same circumstances, later called the referring party and complained, and also learned that she wasn't the first to do so. I'm pretty sure all of that was presented to the GJ in the criminal proceedings.

So what makes this different? The $5000 check would be the only thing. How would anyone prove that check was in an effort to solicit prostitutes? If so, what then? I don't think Watson would shoulder the blame for a system with questionable design and intentions way before he came along.

I don't think anyone is blind to the fact that Deshaun used this "system" to his advantage. Or that he was a creepy sex addict pushing the envelope way too far. But we have yet to see that he tried to "force" anyone to do something. Even those that were offended and told him to GTFO have stated that he got dressed, apologized, and went on his way. I think the chances of this being some "smoking gun" that would initiate more criminal charges are slim to none.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 03:40 PM
The Watson thread is closed.

OTA's, camps coming.

It is my hope that the NFL makes a ruling on DW. I want to know one way or the other. There has been plenty of time to investigate.

Make a ruling so we can move on. I am ok with what is decided no matter what. I just want to know so we can prepare for the season.

Hopefully a decision is imminent.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 05:32 PM
The Watson thread in Pure Football is closed, but it remains a topic of discussion as long as there are new developments. I chose to continue it in the Tailgate, because that's the forum where it belongs, in my opinion. The NFL has had time to investigate the 22 ongoing civil suits, but perhaps not this new one (#23), or the 24th that is reportedly coming down the pike in the next few days.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 05:39 PM
The owner and moderators of this board have determined where this belongs. I'm sure there's nothing wrong with posting here in Tailgate either but with several watson threads having been posted in Pure football and having run their course, it's obvious that the powers that bet also decided it belongs in Pure football. And this will do nothing to stop it from being discussed there. Individuals will not be given free reign to impose their will over others.

You would think that with this board being provided to us for free that posters would respect the decisions of the owners and the people who run it rather than continually second guess them and question their decisions. But no.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 05:48 PM
If the mods want to move this to PF or merge it with Mac's new thread or delete it altogether, its fine with me. I put it here because, traditionally, this is the forum for player's legal issues.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 05:58 PM
As I said, the owner and every moderator on this board never moved a single watson thread from pure football. As such I'm sure someone will just end up starting another watson thread in pure football. Legal issues are one thing. The fact that the Browns may be directly impacted on the field of play by this makes it directly pure football related.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 06:48 PM
The powers that be haven't determined anything. Just because mods haven't said anything doesn't mean it's correct.

If the PF threads only stuck to the subject of Watson's availability come Week 1, then you'd have a point. You and I both know that won't happen.

For someone that just got done criticizing another poster for trying to restrict who could talk about what in which thread, you seem awfully comfortable lecturing someone for starting a thread in the correct forum (correct per precedent and the description of this forum).
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 07:09 PM
So the people who own and run the board are wrong and those who claim they know the rules and how things should be done here are right? So you're suggesting that after several watson thread over a period of time the powers that be haven't made a decision based on them not moving any of those threads? Really?

I don't care where someone posts these threads. What I questioned was the reasoning for it. If you can show otherwise please do so. I even posted this....

Quote
I'm sure there's nothing wrong with posting here in Tailgate either but with several watson threads having been posted in Pure football and having run their course, it's obvious that the powers that bet also decided it belongs in Pure football.

But please, do go on.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 07:27 PM
Well, there IS this thread near the bottom of page 1 in the Tailgate ...

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1936154/watson-trade-off-the-field-iii#Post1936154

Watson trade off the field III
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 07:32 PM
Yes there is. And as you noted it's at the bottom of the page. It died a peaceful death. Meanwhile since that time watson threads have flourished in Pure football. As I said, I'm sure there's nothing wrong with you posting this in the Tailgate forum. The issue is that people are trying to pretend that a looming suspension does not have a direct impact on the Pure football side of the discussion aren't making a valid point.

When and if you pay a QB 230 mil and they can't be on the field, that impacts your football team and their success or failure directly.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by oobernoober
If the PF threads only stuck to the subject of Watson's availability come Week 1, then you'd have a point. You and I both know that won't happen.

So many threads in PF don't belong there with this criteria though
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 08:17 PM
Thanks Dave for posting this in the correct forum. I know you are a big Baker fan, but you have class, unlike others. When I made my post about Baker, the Person......I had the decency to put it in the Tailgate forum and not the PFF, because it wasn't Pure Football. However, we have posters like Pit, 888, and mac that want to force this topic down our throats because they are butt-hurt about poor, poor Baker.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 08:22 PM
Yes, the decider has made his ruling on which forum is correct to post this content in. And so it is written.

rofl
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So the people who own and run the board are wrong and those who claim they know the rules and how things should be done here are right?

Nope, try again. Same ol' shtick and it's tiresome.

Originally Posted by LLL
So you're suggesting that after several watson thread over a period of time the powers that be haven't made a decision based on them not moving any of those threads? Really?
Nope. Strike 2.
I'm stating that the mods have shown that they don't rule with an iron fist. Threads can and do go off topic all the time. This topic, in particular, has like 3 topics that each belong in 3 different forums. Some want to talk about the football aspect without diving back into the others. When myself and someone else opened up the off-field thread over here the first time an accusation flew that we were trying to bury that part of the conversation because.... reasons. If someone can read the description of this forum and still conjure enough fake outrage to question why DW legal convo was started up here... I'll just bow out now because I'm not going to read stuff to you.

Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I don't care where someone posts these threads. What I questioned was the reasoning for it.

Lol... thank you for clarifying. That changes everything.... rolleyes
You have stated previously that you'd stop rooting for the Browns over the DW issue, but would continue to post here about DW. I think it's pretty clear to me why you don't like the idea of separating the different parts of the Watson conversation.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/02/22 08:36 PM
Nice post, oober. I want to say that I was a little snarky on my first post because I am pretty tired of a few people who want to dominate the conversation and resort to insults and lies to degrade anyone who has a different opinion.

Moving beyond that........I think the legal, social, and political topics be kept out of Pure Football. That doesn't mean I am correct. However, I have the right to voice that opinion w/out being attacked. I think these types of threads don't belong in Pure Football because actual football talk is overwhelmed by the legal issues and labeling. I have posted numerous articles, videos, and and opinions on Watson's football skills, but we can't talk about them because we have to read the same story posted by multiple journalists over and over again as if it is new news. Then, we gotta hear about the number of women over and over again. Thus, football conversation is eliminated while a few try to convince everyone to see it their way. Then, they have the nerve to say others try to control the conversation. GMAFB!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
However, we have posters like Pit, 888, and mac that want to force this topic down our throats because they are butt-hurt about poor, poor Baker.

Not only can you not keep my name out of your post you are also consistent with not being adult enough to address me directly. Anyone paying attention might think it's deliberate and baiting the number of times you have written "888" recently - all the while misrepresenting comments and posts, claiming I have miss-quoted you when I cut and paste your actual words. At least you have stopped calling other posters who you don't agree with "Evil" repeatedly, I guess that's progress.

Butt hurt about poor poor Baker? Again - a complete misrepresentation on anything I have said since the DW trade went down.... and the 'Butt hurt' comment is also very akin to your cheap smack about posters must be angry? Quality debate right there bro.

Here's a clue Vers - the board lost 90% of it's animosity outside of Palus Politicus for a few months. Then it came back with a vengeance with the overboard spamming of Baker "analysis" and re-writting of OBJ history etc. Do you know what the common denominator that was missing when the football boards were more civil - and what it was now that they are more full of snark? I think you do.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 06:28 AM
Do any sensible supporter really expect this upcoming spectacle to end in a positive way for the Cleveland Browns?

A suspension is waiting around the corner, the media coverage who follows, the social media, not to mention the trial itself who’s probably going to go on for nearly a year, if not longer.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 11:43 AM
Who?

Just messing my man. We will just have to see how it all pans out.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 01:54 PM
I'm putting myself on a self-imposed DT hiatus. But before I do (for the sake of balance) it's posters that whine and complain about things other posters do, and then in the next breath do the exact same thing. It's irritating, and we have a couple that have been doing it non-stop, especially over the last few weeks.

Bringing up topics from other threads where it got heated, and then getting on people's cases for not staying on topic is annoying.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 02:43 PM
Yo. Enjoy the fam and summer shenanigans! Don't disappear though, this place always needs as much "fair and balanced" as possible. wink
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 03:35 PM
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.

The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 05:15 PM
Presented without comment.

Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 05:37 PM
A couple of quick thoughts:

- A while ago there was some angst expressed by some about how Buzbee is getting an unfair advantage with the airing of the HBO special. But, while I am not paying close attention other than here on DT, I've seen at minimum reference to 4 interviews Hardin has done since. Sorry - I am not buying that Buzbee is out there tainting public opinion any more or less than Hardin.

- A shift from 100% consensual to "Happy Endings aren't illegal" seems significant.

- Aren't necessarily illegal and definitely not illegal - miles and miles apart.

And that's sticking only to this tweet/post ....
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 05:50 PM
Yeah, that's the "not necessarily" part. Saying something when you aren't really saying anything.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.

The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.

This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 07:21 PM
Seriously.... how does a lawyer for the defense make THAT comment in a case like this??

Are the wheels falling off??
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 07:25 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Presented without comment.


Odd phrasing, I wonder if he will broach the topic if they are necessarily consensual.

Edit: If he states that the one lady was crying tears of joy because it had a happy ending this story is ending up on E! Entertainment.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 08:23 PM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Seriously.... how does a lawyer for the defense make THAT comment in a case like this??

Are the wheels falling off??

Clearly they would never want to willingly go there. I don't know if the wheels are falling off - I think the tire might have a puncture and this smacks of damage control with a hint of desperation. jmo
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Presented without comment.


Odd phrasing, I wonder if he will broach the topic if they are necessarily consensual.

Edit: If he states that the one lady was crying tears of joy because it had a happy ending this story is ending up on E! Entertainment.

Especially after Watson's happy ending landed on her arm. Disgusting.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 09:48 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Presented without comment.



Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 10:39 PM
So Hardin realized he gaffed and is trying to put the cat back in the bag.
Posted By: Swish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 11:14 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
So Hardin realized he gaffed and is trying to put the cat back in the bag.


well, if Watson isn't suspended at least half the season, i'd be shockingly surprised. i guess that was expected, but good lord this lawyer made everything worse. ive been on record saying DW is at minimum a creep, but damn.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 11:32 PM
I asked this on another thread, Swish. I'm an old guy, but back in my day most of us tried to have as much sex as we could. The clubs were always packed and a large portion of the population had sex w/multiple partners on a consistent basis. You are younger than me and maybe you are not in the loop because you have been married so long, but are you telling me that having sex w/multiple other people of the other sex is now looked upon as "creepy?"
Posted By: Swish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/03/22 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I asked this on another thread, Swish. I'm an old guy, but back in my day most of us tried to have as much sex as we could. The clubs were always packed and a large portion of the population had sex w/multiple partners on a consistent basis. You are younger than me and maybe you are not in the loop because you have been married so long, but are you telling me that having sex w/multiple other people of the other sex is now looked upon as "creepy?"

remember, some of these cases was him hitting up women on IG and flying them in. the fact that he went through that many "massage therapist" leads me to believe that he has some sort of massage room sexual fetish. again, creepy isn't illegal, but it is creepy.

Hell, if he would've just got happy endings the good old fashion way like the Patriots owner did, i dont even know if we'd be having this convo right now.

chasing women isn't creepy. how you go about it determines that.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 12:02 AM
Okay, thanks. I just didn't know if having sex w/multiple partners was now taboo.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 03:43 AM
If it becomes proven that someone paid a madam to set the encounters up for money for sex, then that's prostitution and that is still taboo.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 10:48 AM
This is our new QB, the face of the franchise... wth was the FO thinking. This will be a long season, and if he's not suspended this year, next year will be long too. He damn well better take us deep into the playoffs. AFC Championship or a Super Bowl is about all that would make it worth all the media bashing. And if it turns out he did more than be creepy, I want nothing to do with either. That Super Bowl would be a disappointment because he tainted it.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 12:18 PM
Maybe to you. Not to me, and I'd bet most others. My liking Watson or not wouldn't taint anything.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Maybe to you. Not to me, and I'd bet most others. My liking Watson or not wouldn't taint anything.

Yep, it isn't like anyone ever gave the Steelers grief over Rapsistburger for years. Of course he only won two.

https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/nfl-fans-roethlisberger-retirement-sexual-assault-allegations
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 03:10 PM
Don't you find it a bit funny that someone is going around trying to equate unwanted sexual advances, rubbing one's genitals on someone else and traumatizing women to "having sex with a lot of women"? Minimizing the acts of a perpetrator does seems to be the go to for some.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 03:12 PM
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.

The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.

This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.

I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.

The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.

This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.

I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.

So, oober was butt hurt because you presented him with facts? Do you think all the people that are annoyed with your continuous snotty, antagonistic posts are butt hurt?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 03:55 PM
Sure sounds like it. Take a number.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 06:08 PM
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Speaking of falling flat. You must miss that the mods often go through these threads and remove posts. Just like the low blow attack vers made just yesterday while he was claiming he knew what class was. They have made it painfully obvious to anyone willing to take an honest look that all of these watson posts belong in either form. They seem to comprehend that the outcome of this has a direct impact of what will happen on the field. They seem to understand how this impacts the team and the FO after making the decision to acquire watson.

The fact you keep trying to dance around that is a you problem.

This is the type of annoying post he was referring to.

I don't care. It's not my fault some are in denial and seem to get butt hurt when presented with the facts.

So, oober was butt hurt because you presented him with facts? Do you think all the people that are annoyed with your continuous snotty, antagonistic posts are butt hurt?

Its a popuilar feeling on this board.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 06:10 PM
And there are plenty of numbers for you to choose from.
Posted By: mac Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 07:09 PM
jc...

The 24 Deshaun Watson trials present a key evidence question: Can evidence of other allegations be introduced?

Posted by Mike Florio on June 4, 2022, 1:24 PM EDT
link


The 24 cases pending against Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson will be resolved via 24 trials. In each of those trials, a key question of evidence will need to be addressed. And the answer will dramatically impact the length of each trial.

How much, if any, evidence of the other claims made against Watson will be admissible in each trial?

During Friday’s interview with Sports Radio 610 in Houston, attorney Rusty Hardin addressed that complication, within the context of whether they believed that the trial of the claims made by Ashley Solis could happen between mid-July and the start of training camp. (The parties have agreed that there will be no trials between August 1 and March 1.)

“We’ll do Solis if you will agree that you’re not going to try to introduce the evidence of the other 21 in this trial and let the allegations and the evidence stand alone on this one case,” Hardin said regarding his communications with attorney Tony Buzbee. “Because if you’re going to try to get all these other cases in to poison the water and the judge rules that you can, there’s no way these cases will not take several months to try. . . . You would have like 21 mini-trials.”

Hardin said Buzbee wouldn’t agree to that. Which means that a ruling from the trial judge in each case will be necessary as to whether evidence of other allegations can be introduced in any, some, or all of the cases.

It’s an issue arising squarely under what’s widely known as Rule 404(b) of the various rules of evidence, federal or state. Rule 404(b) generally prohibits evidence “of any other crime, wrong, or act . . . to prove a person’s character in order to show that on a particular occasion the person acted in accordance with the character.” In other words, evidence of other allegations against Watson can’t be used for the purposes of arguing to the jury, “If he’s accused of doing it in all these other cases, he must have done it here.”

Rule 404(b) contains a key exception: “This evidence may be admissible for another purpose, such as proving motive, opportunity, intent, preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, absence of mistake, or lack of accident.”

That’s where Buzbee may have an opening. He’ll argue not that he’s using the other claims in an effort to get the jury to think that, for example, 24 people can’t all be wrong or lying or conspiring (although it’s a key collateral benefit) but that the claims go to the question of Watson’s motive, intent, preparation, plan, the absence of mistake, and/or the lack of accident.

For example, to the extent that Buzbee will try to prove that Watson arranged massages with so many different women with the intention that those massages would become sexual and the plan to try to make that happen through his words and actions during the massages, that evidence would go directly Watson’s motive and intent in arranging each of the sessions.

Hardin’s best practical argument against 404(b) evidence is the threat/promise of the 21 mini-trials! No judge wants to preside over a case that spirals out of control, with multiple other plaintiffs testifying and being cross-examined and a one-week trial literally requiring, as Hardin said, several months. Each trial could potentially become as convoluted as the Seinfeld finale.

That said, there’s surely a more economical way to do it. The answer could be driven by the specific defense that Watson, through Hardin, employs. If Watson ultimately admits (as Hardin seemed to do on Friday) that he arranged massages with the hope that they would become sexual and that he tried to steer things that way, the fact that he allegedly crossed the line with others becomes less relevant. If, however, Watson tries to say that he had no desire or plan or motive or intent to secure any sexual activity under the guise of a legitimate massage and that any conduct suggestion otherwise was a mere mistake or accident, the door flies open to Buzbee’s ability to show out often Watson engaged in that supposedly accidental behavior.

For example, if an alleged shoplifter claims that a candy bar fell into his pocket when he accidentally brushed against the display, the fact that he had been accused by 23 other stores of shoplifting and used that same defense in every single instance makes the other claims relevant to proving that there was no accident.

That’s why Hardin’s comments from Friday are so important. Even though he won’t be testifying at trial, he’ll be the architect of the defense. At some point, he’ll need to put his cards on the table. Will Watson admit he was hoping the massages would become sexual and that he actively tried to make that happen? Or will Watson insist that he did nothing of the sort, ever? Those and other specific strategies will shape the question of whether Rule 404(b) evidence eventually is allowed at one or more or all of the trials.

There’s another important wrinkle here. The ruling made in the first of the 24 cases quite possibly will be appealed through the Texas court system. The judges presiding over the other 23 cases may decide to press pause on all of them until the appellate process is resolved and a conclusive answer is obtained. This would delay the entire litigation by months, if not years.

So, yes, Watson should have settled these cases last April. Or last October. Or in March, when he was traded to Cleveland. Or right now.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/04/22 08:31 PM
That will be the first big battle. The pre-trial motions made before the judge set the parameters of what can be brought in to evidence, testimony, etc. and what will be suppressed during the trial.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 01:14 PM
j/c...

Interesting conversation with Peter King and Mike Florio, especially since Florio was an attorney in civil cases for twenty years. I think his comments from the 9:00 mark tell a pretty accurate story of what we'll see. Hopefully not the last part though. As he goes into the fact that this will likely play out over two seasons, his opinion is that the NFL should just suspend him now until all the cases are resolved; or in his words, "suspend him for the whole year and let him focus on these cases and just get these damned cases behind him". If I can separate my "fandom" from the best way forward... that's actually the best way for the league to respond.

Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 01:35 PM
What was mentioned earlier in the year about these cases.....that the earliest they could go to court is 2023 IF they will be tried?

So sitting out this year to handle these cases is Florio's suggestion.... but if Watson is claiming his innocence and this goes on into 2023 the same approach would apply? Nah, I don't think that makes sense. Watson's lawyers are "handling" these cases. Watson's daily/weekly/monthly involvement undoubtedly pales in comparison to what his team will do so this mindset from Florio that Watson needs to drop everything and work on these cases seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Look... If the NFL wants to suspend him now, then they'll suspend him now. If they want to wait, they will wait. But Watson will be playing football if he can....and I'm guessing won't pause is life/career to work on these cases when he is paying people to do so on his behalf.

JMO.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 01:42 PM
Florio has been riding Watson almost daily for quite some time. Personally, I don't think a man should be punished so harshly before his guilt has been legally determined.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 02:49 PM
IMO Peter King is full of it.

His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.

13 teams inquired about Watson. Four teams submitted pre-qualified bids for his service. So, please spare me about Haslam and Cleveland.

Media loves content. Something to talk about. It is interesting how the spotlight is shined. The Kraft and Snyder cases got buried quick. Kraft paid and all went dark. Maybe I missed it. Was there any public interviews with anyone? Never heard any details about old Krafty. Snyder a total scumbag is still being protected undercover by the owners. A case where rampant sexual harrassment was part of the culture.

IMO DW should settle every case no matter the cost. In the end civil cases are about compensation not guilt or innocence. He is going to pay no matter what. He should cut his loses and legal fees.

Once that is done. He should work on his reputation. He is going to play football for ten or more years. Over that time what he does as a celebrity and member of the Cleveland community will go a long way as his career moves forward.

It will be interesting over time to see how he is viewed. If suspended will that be enough? How will people react if he serves a suspension? Will it be like a criminal who served his time? OK he served his sentence justice was served. Or, is he forever guilty and no matter what he is scum?

Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 03:14 PM
j/c

It seems people just wish this would all go away and pretending this won't be an issue for years to come is their best way of hoping that's so. Well it won't.

Question, what if watson's suspension is about the cases they already know about and then more cases come afterwords? Yeah, this isn't going away and as times passes only gets worse.

Just last week another case. Just last week watson's lawyer steps in it. Just last week it was announced another lawsuit would be filed this week. And yet denial still rears its ugly head.

And the entire "Florio is picking on him" angle is new but yet so shallow. You know what they say. If you don't like the message, shoot the messenger.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 04:24 PM
j/c...





NSFW...click to read tweet....

https://twitter.com/sarahbarshop/status/1533843771640512512
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 04:39 PM
Quote
NSFW...click to read tweet....

I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder if these late additions to the lawsuit that sound far-fetched will aide or hinder the original lawsuits? I don't mean in the court of public opinion because a lot of folks have already decided on whether or not he is guilty, but rather in the actual courtroom.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 04:49 PM
I'm starting to think Watson ultimately settles out of court and puts this all behind him at some point. Fighting each case in court individually could go on and on for years to come.

Roethlisberger had a civil suit filed against him in 2009 stemming from the alleged rape at a Lake Tahoe hotel in 2008. The civil suit was not settled until January 2012 and that was just one civil suit.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 04:53 PM
Milk, do you think that Watson's chance of a longer suspension will increase if he does indeed settle out of court?
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
IMO Peter King is full of it.

His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.

I haven't seen what Peter King has said. But as a sport journalist I've always liked PK and thought he was dialled in pretty well to what was going on across the NFL. Seems like it would be uncharacteristic for him to do a hatchet job and spew hate for the sake of clicks. He's always seemed to have a soft spot for the Browns too. If I get time I will go see if I can find it... if it's posted on the thread I'll have to go back pages to find it.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 05:40 PM
Let's face it. It's not about the reporters as it pertains to their accuracy or reputations. Such comments are being based on what it is they're reporting. If they don't like the message they shoot the messenger.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 05:46 PM
I do not think a settlement would have a more harsh impact on his suspension. The NFL has never suspended a player based on the outcome of a civil suit.

However, I can envision a scenario where the longer this drags on and more and more cases surface, Watson may be suspended longer because the NFL brand is tied to this as well. My guess is the NFL would prefer to have this all resolved instead of the lead story in the NFL.

DEFCON 1 scenario: Goodell reconsiders and puts Watson on the Commissioner's NFL Exempt list and the NFL decides not to make its final suspension ruling until all the civil suits are resolved.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
IMO Peter King is full of it.

His take about Haslam making the worst decision ever in sports. Please. What a crock.

13 teams inquired about Watson. Four teams submitted pre-qualified bids for his service. So, please spare me about Haslam and Cleveland.


And none of that makes it a better decision, nor does any of it lessen it, and handing over a fully-guaranteed quarter billion dollar contract as part of it definitely doesn't help it.

Other people being willing to make a bad decision doesn't make that bad decision a good decision.

#dontdrinkthekoolaid
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 07:24 PM
Thanks for the reply, Milk.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 07:49 PM
Excerpts from the actual lawsuit...

Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 08:18 PM
He singled out Haslam which I think is not fair right or wrong.

I don't think Haslam is any different than the other owners. It does not bother me that he feels it is a bad decision. The point is any number of teams were willing to sign him as well.

I am not defending Haslam but to single him out is wrong.

There is a long game here. No matter what happens people get second chances all the time. Deshaun Watson will be playing more than likely over ten years. He is 26. Most of his life is in front of him. If he gets suspended or not his life goes on. If he settles some will never forgive. If he is suspended serves the suspension and comes back. Some may again never forgive.

Others may not give a damn either way. Some may wait and see what he does going forward. Others may only care about how he plays on Sundays.

All are legit.

Haslam looked at it and decided Baker went as far as he could go. Watson was an obvious upgrade with his prime in front of him. He knew he would never get a chance to get a guy like him. He also considered where the roster was as far as good talented players in their prime. He did his research. He made the decision to go after him. If there are those who wish to fault him for his decision. Totally fair. Haslam saw an opportunity to improve the team and contend for a championship. Some will agree others will not. I can not say what Haslam actually thinks about Watson as a person.

What I do see is that the NFL is a business and business decisions are made all the time. Many of those decisions are far from fair.

Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Excerpts from the actual lawsuit...


This is SO effed up and disgusting. Zero chance I can root for this POS. I just can't.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 08:33 PM
j/c...

A few things...

Going back and reading my post, I want to make sure it's not misinterpreted in relation to Florio's comments: As he goes into the fact that this will likely play out over two seasons, his opinion is that the NFL should just suspend him now until all the cases are resolved; or in his words, "suspend him for the whole year and let him focus on these cases and just get these damned cases behind him". If I can separate my "fandom" from the best way forward... that's actually the best way for the league to respond.

*It's not what I want (before that gets twisted).
*I'm not saying it's fair.

I'm simply saying that the league is between a rock and a hard place. Wait too long = you don't take it seriously. Do something too soon = you didn't wait for all the evidence. Meanwhile, the dirty laundry airs for months, if not years, and the league is constantly held accountable (in the eyes of many) regardless of what they do. It's the easy way out; and really, nobody can complain, it's not their fault this dude caught 24 cases.


Next: It would definitely be better in the eyes of the league AND the Browns if Watson settled. He's got 250 million, we're probably talking about 3-5. I'm sure there are many around him urging him to go back down that road. To be frank, I would guess that Buzbee will provide a constant stream of "yuk" in an effort to get him to sit back down at the table. Problem is, he's also going to be charging an @sshole tax since his time was wasted the first go-round. Loosen up whatever is wrong with the NDA, it's all getting "disclosed" in the media anyway.


Lastly, as it pertains to how "terrible and unfair" Peter King is... I don't care if the entire league wanted Watson and there was a 32 way bidding war...

The team that got him:

Gave him the largest (by a landslide) guarantee in NFL history.
To the tune of 1/4 BILLION.
With language that eliminates any financial punishment if he is suspended.
With a mortgage of the future in respect to assets traded...

With (then) twenty-two cases of sexual misconduct unresolved.

I suspect King would be saying the same exact thing regardless of which team won the sweepstakes. This isn't somebody picking on the "poor ol' Browns".
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 08:53 PM
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Excerpts from the actual lawsuit...


Beginning to look like DW isn't going to belong in Pure Football for a bit.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 09:07 PM
This whole Deshaun Watson case reminds me a lot of the "cast the first stone" part in the Bible. (looked it up, it's John 8,7)

John 8 2: And early in the morning He came into the temple, (Jesus) and all the people came unto him: and he sat down and taught them.
3. And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
They said unto him, Master this woman was taken in adultery in the very act.
5. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6. This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. as though he heard them not.
7. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last:
and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
I0. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
II. She said No man, Lord, and Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

(Let he that is without sin among you cast the first stone.)
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 09:08 PM
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Beginning to look like DW isn't going to belong in Pure Football for a bit.

Or the Browns team.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 09:53 PM
Forget about Watson until 2023, maybe even 2024. Just saying. Right now from a Browns perspective only a financial settlement can save a Happy Ending.
nanner rofl nanner From a serious perspective it’s so tragic and it has been handled so incompetent that the only thing I can do is laugh.

A more legit and serious question is who’s going to first leave the Browns. Andrew Berry or Baker Mayfield?
(unthinkable only a few hours ago but right now I wouldn’t bet against it)
Rich Eisen
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 10:35 PM
I disagree w/your take, but that's okay. I understand why you may think that way and I won't call you names over it. I just think that the NFL should hand down a minimal suspension to appease the vultures for a bit and then make a final determination after all the facts come out. I will never ever believe that punishing a person before he is legally convicted is a good idea.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 10:42 PM
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 10:43 PM
I'm confused. Did I call someone names?

Anyway. "I just think that the NFL should hand down a minimal suspension to appease the vultures for a bit and then make a final determination after all the facts come out."

That wouldn't be a terrible route to go. Four game suspension to "appease" with the caveat that another suspension may be coming after the cases are settled. Make no mistake though, he's getting suspended, and it has nothing to do with any legal conviction.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/06/22 10:48 PM
LOL.........no, sorry. You didn't call anyone names. I was referring to the gang over on the other forum where that is a common practice.

Yeah, it looks like they have no choice but to suspend him. I think 4 games will suffice for now and they can issue a statement about handing down a stiffer punishment if the facts warrant it. Btw---------I wasn't trying to change your mind. I respect your opinion. Just giving you my take. We all have opinions and disagreeing in a friendly manner is a good thing.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 10:36 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Florio has been riding Watson almost daily for quite some time. Personally, I don't think a man should be punished so harshly before his guilt has been legally determined.

I agree it a traditional sense, but the league isn't so much looking at punishment from a legal standpoint, they are looking at the conduct policy. The parameters set by that are much wider than the actual court outcome.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:07 PM
Personal conduct policy. Vague by intent.

Purp brought up a very good point. The NFL has spent years developing the brand to the female audience. At this point it would be hard to imagine that no suspension could be a result.

This lawyer for DW has been not very good. In fact I am surprised that Haslam is not involved with his legal team and a PR company.

I do not want to sound insensitive to the accusers or the seriousness of the accusations. But I saw the beginning of the Rich Eisen show where he started with how vile the lastest accusation was. My thought was it was sex. I have no idea how the accuser was so close to him masterbating? If he was naked and etc. Why remain in the room? Tell him to get dressed and walk out. I can only think if I was in that position what I would do if I were her or any women in a situation like that. "Get dressed and leave or I will call the police and have you removed. Never contact me me again."

In the end this is about sex. As soon as you are not comfortable stop it. The line in the sand is force or any type of violence to another.

The investigations into the allegations has been going on for over a year. It has been done by the grand jury prosecutors, the local police, the Haslam hired team, and the NFL. They should be able to come to some conclusion.

DW IMO has to settle these cases ASAP. Take whatever is decided and work on doing everything possible to prove to everyone that you can be a good man. Be truthful to yourself and do all you can to become a good man.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:27 PM
Hardin has previously represented Haslam... as well as Adrian Peterson, Roger Clemens and Joel Osteen.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:28 PM
Could 24th lawsuit against Deshaun Watson eventually allow Browns to void his guarantees?

Posted by Mike Florio on June 7, 2022, 6:43 AM EDT
PFT

Perhaps the most significant development from Monday in the Deshaun Watson situation was no development at all. Specifically, the lack of a response from Watson’s team to the 24th lawsuit could end up creating significant consequences for Watson with the league and/or the team.

Attorney Rusty Hardin issued a statement on Monday indicating that he’s unable to respond to the 24th lawsuit because “our legal team has not had time to investigate this new filing and had not heard her name until today.”

There’s an important distinction between not hearing her name and not being aware of her potential claims. The early stages of the civil litigation against Watson featured a delicate and convoluted guessing game as to who the plaintiffs were, because they initially sued under the Jane Doe pseudonym. The effort to identify potential plaintiffs potentially included a person whose name Watson didn’t know or remember who eventually would make the claims reduced to writing in the lawsuit filed Monday. Hardin’s statement says only that they hadn’t heard the person’s name until Monday; it’s possible they knew, via aggressive questioning of their own client, that there was a 24th interaction that could have resulted in a claim being made.

That’s important for multiple reasons. First, if this person whose name previously wasn’t known to Watson’s legal team now files a criminal complaint, the allegations could be submitted to another grand jury. And the graphic details contained in the 24th complaint, if repeated to a grand jury and accepted by the grand jury, could result in an indictment. (Although I’ve tried to avoid repeating the graphic details, the 24th plaintiff contends that, after trying to get the plaintiff to to touch his penis and asking her “where do you want me to put it?” he ejaculated — and “some of his ejaculate got on Plaintiff’s chest and face.”)

Second, if Watson eventually is suspended for the conduct alleged in the 24th lawsuit, the Browns possibly will be able to void his guarantees and move on from him, and possibly to recover a significant portion of his signing bonus.

As explained in early April, after we obtained a full copy of Watson’s contract, the contract exempts from the standard default/guarantee void language a suspension imposed by the league “solely in connection with matters disclosed to Club in writing pursuant to paragraph 42 and such suspension results in Player’s unavailability to Club solely for games during the 2022 or 2023 NFL League Years.”

In paragraph 42 of the contract, Watson “represents and warrants (except as disclosed to club in writing), as of the date hereof, that (i) Player has not been charged with, indicted for, convicted of or pled nolo contende to any felony and/or misdemeanor involving fraud or moral turpitude, (ii) Player has not engaged in conduct which would subject him to a charge, indictment or conviction of any such offense, and (iii) no circumstances exist that would prevent Player’s continuing availability to the Club for the duration of this Contract.”

The written disclosure was not attached to the contract. A source with knowledge of the document told us in April that it’s a “fair assumption” that it refers to the 22 pending civil lawsuits.

The question now becomes whether it was written broadly enough to encompass individuals who had not previously come forward, either with a lawsuit, a criminal complaint, or some other public statement. The plaintiff who sued last week, for example, was known to Watson’s camp because she did a podcast interview last August. Based on Hardin’s statement, they didn’t know the name of the person who filed the 24th lawsuit until Monday.

Beyond the question of whether the 24th plaintiff’s claims could potentially fall beyond the language of the exception to the default language in Watson’s contract is the basic reality that Watson ultimately could be suspended at some point after 2022 and 2023. Without any clear indication as to when the NFL will act against Watson and with literally two dozen lawsuits that will work their way through the legal system (with August 1 through March 1 out of bounds for any of the trials), if the league either defers all punishment until the cases are over (not likely) or imposes a preliminary suspension now and leaves the door open for another suspension based on the outcomes of the cases (a reasonable middle ground), Watson could still face a suspension in 2024 or beyond.

Then there’s the possibility that still can’t be ignored of the NFL changing its position on paid leave. Although Commissioner Roger Goodell removed paid leave from the table in late March, recent developments could put it back in play. When we asked the league that very specific question on Monday — a question the Commissioner freely answered in March — the league had no comment.

So we’ll see how it all plays out. For the first time since the flurry of lawsuits was filed in 2021, however, a case will play out involving a person whose name wasn’t previously known to Watson’s camp. That could (not will, but could) potentially create major problems for Watson, in multiple ways.


https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...lly-allow-browns-to-void-his-guarantees/
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:36 PM
The Browns would still lose the boatload of picks they traded for him.

That would be a very Browns thing to do ...... banghead
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:42 PM
This is what I'm starting to wonder.

There has to be an "out" somewhere in this contract as the poop keeps getting deeper.

Our GM talks about "the most extensive investigation he's ever seen" the coach talks about a "five month odyssey"... along those lines of "due diligence" another gets crossed:

"DeShaun, are you telling us everything... and I mean everything? We can only make these guarantees based on the information you're telling us being accurate and complete, I want you to be sure we're not leaving any stone unturned."


At this point, it seems either our due diligence sucks or DeShaun hasn't been completely honest (read: LIED). You can't just "forget" about the most egregious case of the bunch.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
This is what I'm starting to wonder.

There has to be an "out" somewhere in this contract as the poop keeps getting deeper.

Our GM talks about "the most extensive investigation he's ever seen" the coach talks about a "five month odyssey"... along those lines of "due diligence" another gets crossed:

"DeShaun, are you telling us everything... and I mean everything? We can only make these guarantees based on the information you're telling us being accurate and complete, I want you to be sure we're not leaving any stone unturned."


At this point, it seems either our due diligence sucks or DeShaun hasn't been completely honest (read: LIED). You can't just "forget" about the most egregious case of the bunch.

I'd wager it's going to be a bit of both, but a further concern is if DW didn't remember a 24th he won't have remembered a 25th, etc.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 01:02 PM
Ok. But I do not think he has handled himself very well.

Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 01:42 PM
Well, the "happy ending" comment was just plain stupid. Other than that I can't think of anything that has been that bad. It's got to be very tough position to be in... civil cases with bearing on NFL punishment, NFL punishment with bearing on clients biggest interest and an NFL team's desires. Client probably wavering between settling and continuing to profess his "innocence"... with that "wavering" having a direct impact on the other parties. Basically, "too much @ss in one room".
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 01:47 PM
I haven't followed the details of the case like some of you, so this might be a dumb question........but, where did these massages take place? Watson's home? A hotel room? A business?
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:03 PM
I don't recall hearing any took place at Watson's home. Many took place at therapists homes, as well as hotels and business locations.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:19 PM
I have never visited such businesses, so this might be a dumb question, but......do the businesses have cameras in the rooms in order to help protect their workers?
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:32 PM
Cameras are illegal.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I have never visited such businesses, so this might be a dumb question, but......do the businesses have cameras in the rooms in order to help protect their workers?

No, that would be a invasion of privacy unless it was expressly indicated.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:33 PM
Thanks. I was hoping that proof could be provided one way or the other.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:36 PM
That's one of the problems with the industry. Cameras are prohibited to protect the privacy of the clients but have an adverse effect on those providing the service. One of the ongoing statements by those in the industry was the fact that they basically have to "put up with creeps" because there is little recourse with no actual evidence.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 02:53 PM
Yeah, I agree. I wasn't sure because it seems creepy to have a camera rolling during such an intimate practice. Not sure that is the right way to phrase massages. I have never had a massage from anyone other than my wife. I don't go to massage parlors or even the spa to have one. On the other hand, it seems like the businesses would want to protect their employees.

I was just hoping that they did have cameras and end all the speculation. All the speculative comments are old.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
That's one of the problems with the industry. Cameras are prohibited to protect the privacy of the clients but have an adverse effect on those providing the service. One of the ongoing statements by those in the industry was the fact that they basically have to "put up with creeps" because there is little recourse with no actual evidence.

and what we're seeing with this case (these cases) is exactly what happens silently every day. You can't get something to a criminal case without good (or at least even mediocre) evidence, so the behavior is never checked as every case is *always* your word against theirs. This is why indictment rates are so low and conviction rates are lower. It's an uphill battle and many DA's, who need solid win records for re-elections, won't be too enthusiastic about pursuing them.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 03:33 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
LOL.........no, sorry. You didn't call anyone names. I was referring to the gang over on the other forum where that is a common practice.

Yet another lie.

#notavictim
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
I don't recall hearing any took place at Watson's home. Many took place at therapists homes, as well as hotels and business locations.

If I recall correctly the Texans had someone that was booking Watson's sessions due to some issue. The women complaining, or at least some of them, were not booked by the Texans contact but outside of the normal process for some reason.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 03:37 PM
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by FATE
I don't recall hearing any took place at Watson's home. Many took place at therapists homes, as well as hotels and business locations.

If I recall correctly the Texans had someone that was booking Watson's sessions due to some issue. The women complaining, or at least some of them, were not booked by the Texans contact but outside of the normal process for some reason.
I remember reading that and thinking "the reason" was probably Watson not getting what he wanted, and not wanting the team to know what we was asking for.

This whole "massage" industry closely resembles prostitution in a lot of respects (and NO, I'm not comparing the therapists to prostitutes, I'm talking about how business is done). Many of the clients come from referrals or "bosses" who book sessions and charge a fee of about 30%. Complain out loud about a client? You get blacklisted. The basic language is "honey, you know there is not much we can do about the creepy stuff". The person who referred Watson to Solis (first to come forward) told her "you can call the police, they won't do much; you can notify the team -- they won't do anything either". Basically, "suck it up, buttercup, this is the life you chose". Do a good job and put up with the b.s.? Plenty of referrals... complain and go hungry. Go off the grid and book by yourself through IG or other social media, you open yourself up even more danger and uncertainty.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 06:18 PM
j/c...



Albert Breer says the NFL's discovery deadline in Watson case is June 30th.

https://twitter.com/PatMcAfeeShow/status/1534233024774041600
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 07:36 PM
Things are definitely getting ugly. When I read the news of the 24th lawsuit, I immediately said something about how the courts would deal w/that particular case. I knew how some people would deal w/it. The details seemed really out there and then this came so late when someone was maybe thinking there is a good chance to make some money. I just wonder how the courts will deal w/her credibility.

Perhaps there is a reason this came as a surprise to the NFL and maybe the Browns?
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 08:10 PM
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 08:13 PM
I hate to say it but being a devoted Browns fan since 1967 I've seen a lot of bad luck and dark clouds hovering over this franchise. I can't help but think this situation with DW is going to blow up in our faces at least in the short term. By short term I mean a possible 1 year suspension. I'm not a lawyer, I don't have any inside info with these cases but what I do have is that funny sinking feeling in my gut that I've had many times over the last 50 + years dealing with my Browns. I think we all know that feeling.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 08:36 PM
I tried three times to send you a PM bro, but they all said your PM box was full.
OBJ wanted out of Cleveland so bad that he was free lancing his routes. Sure the posts his Dad made him look open.... he was open because he ran his own damn routes, not the ones that the coaching staff set up. He screwed his own team for the sake of his own personal gain. OBJ can rot in hell,. He treated the browns ten times worse than Baker ever did.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 08:54 PM
The NY Times weighs in with a long, comprehensive report. Worth reading, IMO.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/sports/football/deshaun-watson.html
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 08:56 PM
I'll see about cleaning up my message box or whatever it's called.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
I tried three times to send you a PM bro, but they all said your PM box was full.
OBJ wanted out of Cleveland so bad that he was free lancing his routes. Sure the posts his Dad made him look open.... he was open because he ran his own damn routes, not the ones that the coaching staff set up. He screwed his own team for the sake of his own personal gain. OBJ can rot in hell,. He treated the browns ten times worse than Baker ever did.

GM - I've seen this reported. Are you confirming this from a position of knowledge?
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 10:56 PM
https://twitter.com/AllbrightNFL/status/1457385921435869186?s=20&t=Jx6e8yl14W8uIxPOAnplqQ
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 11:07 PM
There's an OBJ thread in Pure Football.
Posted By: jaybird Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
The Browns would still lose the boatload of picks they traded for him.

That would be a very Browns thing to do ...... banghead

Agreed - only way we do that is if he gets suspended by the league for multiple years... which they won't do... why would we move on from him after giving up that much draft capital? dumb article...
Posted By: jaybird Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 11:52 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
That's one of the problems with the industry. Cameras are prohibited to protect the privacy of the clients but have an adverse effect on those providing the service. One of the ongoing statements by those in the industry was the fact that they basically have to "put up with creeps" because there is little recourse with no actual evidence.


Need to start making it a standard that a therapist is not alone with a client in a compromising situation... When I was a treating therapist there was no way I was going to help a female patient into the rest room in the hospital without a second person... not because I physically needed the help, but I wanted a witness in case I got accused of something inappropriate...
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/07/22 11:54 PM
I understand that, and agree.

But maybe the patient should have one of their own witnesses as well.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 10:02 AM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by FATE
That's one of the problems with the industry. Cameras are prohibited to protect the privacy of the clients but have an adverse effect on those providing the service. One of the ongoing statements by those in the industry was the fact that they basically have to "put up with creeps" because there is little recourse with no actual evidence.

and what we're seeing with this case (these cases) is exactly what happens silently every day. You can't get something to a criminal case without good (or at least even mediocre) evidence, so the behavior is never checked as every case is *always* your word against theirs. This is why indictment rates are so low and conviction rates are lower. It's an uphill battle and many DA's, who need solid win records for re-elections, won't be too enthusiastic about pursuing them.

Not to mention a low conviction rate reeks of false prosecution.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 10:37 AM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by GMdawg
I tried three times to send you a PM bro, but they all said your PM box was full.
OBJ wanted out of Cleveland so bad that he was free lancing his routes. Sure the posts his Dad made him look open.... he was open because he ran his own damn routes, not the ones that the coaching staff set up. He screwed his own team for the sake of his own personal gain. OBJ can rot in hell,. He treated the browns ten times worse than Baker ever did.

GM - I've seen this reported. Are you confirming this from a position of knowledge?

YES
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 01:22 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by GMdawg
I tried three times to send you a PM bro, but they all said your PM box was full.
OBJ wanted out of Cleveland so bad that he was free lancing his routes. Sure the posts his Dad made him look open.... he was open because he ran his own damn routes, not the ones that the coaching staff set up. He screwed his own team for the sake of his own personal gain. OBJ can rot in hell,. He treated the browns ten times worse than Baker ever did.

GM - I've seen this reported. Are you confirming this from a position of knowledge?

YES

Thanks. I always believed it to be true. But never used it to try and defend Baker because of how unsubstantiated I felt the report to be. Brings a whole new meaning to a video promoting how wide open he was and how crap Baker is... Used to bash one player and also get a release. Makes OBJ an even bigger POS. No wonder Baker wasn't looking his way. I guess he felt it didn't matter where he lined up either if he wasn't running the designed routes.

Additionally, for all the Baker is a mental midget bashing that goes on.... Baker didn't say a peep even though OBJ and OBJs dad made the guy look like a 3rd string QB with that hatchet job video.

And posters want him back, give him a free pass while saying Baker's bum shoulder and broken humerus didn't affect him much. Smh
Posted By: 3rd_and_20 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 02:07 PM
j/c:

REVEALED: Browns' Deshaun Watson 'met at least 66 women for massages over 17-month span and the Texans provided him with NDA after one therapist threatened to expose his sexual misconduct'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...men-massages-17-month-span.html#comments
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 02:11 PM
The team provided an NDA?

One has to wonder now if that is why so many others have opted to say/do nothing.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 02:21 PM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
The team provided an NDA?

One has to wonder now if that is why so many others have opted to say/do nothing.

From the NYT report...

Help From the Texans

Days later, when Watson went to work at the Texans’ stadium, he found an N.D.A. in his locker. He later said in a deposition that Brent Naccara, a former Secret Service agent who is the Texans’ director of security, put it there after Watson told him about Smith’s Instagram posts.

Watson began taking the N.D.A. to massages that same week, giving one to the woman in Manvel, who signed it, and another to a woman who said in her lawsuit that she ended the session after he suggested a sexual act. Watson told her she had to sign in order for him to pay, so she did, according to her filing. Watson said in a deposition that he used this N.D.A. only for massage appointments because he had lawyers and agents who handled his other business.

It’s unclear whether the Texans knew how many massages Watson was getting or who was providing them. But their resources helped support his massage habit away from the team. Watson acknowledged in a deposition that the Texans arranged for him to have “a place” at The Houstonian. He used the fitness club, dined there and also set up massages in hotel rooms.

At least seven women met him at the hotel for appointments, according to interviews and records, including two who filed civil lawsuits and two who complained to police.

The Texans weren’t aware of the massage appointments at the hotel “that I know of,” Watson said. He also said that his access to the property was not under his name. One woman who gave Watson a massage at The Houstonian said she was told the room was registered to a member of the Texans’ training staff.


https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/07/sports/football/deshaun-watson.html
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 02:50 PM
Definitely not enough smoke there to hold the Texans accountable for anything. For all they know he just likes to have "relations" with different women and provided a place for his escapades. Again, as more info surfaces and a timeline is built, it may be evident there should have been signs. But it's not their job to babysit -- he's an adult. There would have to be evidence along the timeline that they team itself was getting complaints from women of sexual harassment for this to be anything more than a small part of a complex story.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 03:40 PM
Not enough for that, but probably well more than enough to absolutely destroy the defense claim of him not seeking these massages for sexual relations purposes.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The details seemed really out there and then this came so late when someone was maybe thinking there is a good chance to make some money. I just wonder how the courts will deal w/her credibility.

And people wonder why victims are slow to, and often times never come forward. #victimshaming
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 05:08 PM
Yeah, it makes it look like watson will be the one with the credibility issue here. From his deposition....

Quote
Q: Did you find her attractive?

A: That wasn’t my intention, sir.

Q: I didn’t ask you what your intentions were.

A: I can’t answer that. I have a girlfriend, so that wasn’t my intention, sir.

Q: So you can’t answer that because you have a girlfriend?

A: Because that’s not what I was looking for.

Q: What did you want from her?

A: Just a massage.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...e-leaked-from-deshaun-watson-deposition/
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 05:53 PM
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 06:10 PM
"Tip of the Iceberg"

banghead
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 08:25 PM
Sorry to tell you Fate, but Jacoby Biscuit is YOUR Cleveland Browns QB for the foreseeable future.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 08:45 PM
As long as he puts the biscuit in the basket...
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/08/22 09:31 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
As long as he puts the biscuit in the basket...

He plays basketball too?
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 12:36 AM
Originally Posted by FATE
"Tip of the Iceberg"

banghead


just the tip
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 01:25 AM
TWSS
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 05:17 AM
Originally Posted by 3rd_and_20
j/c:

REVEALED: Browns' Deshaun Watson 'met at least 66 women for massages over 17-month span and the Texans provided him with NDA after one therapist threatened to expose his sexual misconduct'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...men-massages-17-month-span.html#comments

If this is true, the dude has a sex fetish addiction type mental illness. OR he's a predator, plain and simple.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 10:21 AM
Quote
met at least 66 women for massages over 17-month span

DAMN ROOKIE
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
If this is true, the dude has a sex fetish addiction type mental illness. OR he's a predator, plain and simple.

It all depends on tax bracket and fame. If you're an average guy who can't afford a high priced lawyer and PR people you're a predator. If you are rich and famous you can use the excuse that it's "fetish/sex addiction/mental issue". But in the end it looks like that's the only options watson will be left with. And yes, those who want to believe it will.
Posted By: dawg66 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 04:54 PM
Just a thought, If the NFL suspends Watson for 2 years or more I wonder if they would void the trade with the Texans and give us back all or most of our draft picks.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 04:57 PM
No. As I heard it at the time of the deal and contract .... if things went bad for Watson, the contract might be voidable due to language in the contract. The deal to trade 3 first round picks is non-reversible. The only possible way that could happen is if the Browns could prove beyond doubt that the Texans operated in bad faith, withheld information or were dishonest with their communications with the Browns. I think the draft picks have sailed no matter what.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 05:12 PM
I was reading something yesterday that after thinking about made a lot of sense to me. To paraphrase.... "It looks as if watson's agent wrote that contract and then just told the Browns to sign it".
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 05:42 PM
Nope, those picks are gone and not coming back.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 08:35 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
The only possible way that could happen is if the Browns could prove beyond doubt that the Texans operated in bad faith, withheld information or were dishonest with their communications with the Browns. I think the draft picks have sailed no matter what.

Even if we were able to prove that (huge huge if)... is it still even possible? Keep in mind, they've already spent one of said picks.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 09:16 PM
We draft so well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds we don't even need those 1st round picks!!!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 09:45 PM
I think if you could prove in a court of law that Houston acted in bad faith and withheld information that should have been provided or simply misled the Browns ... yeah, I think we would get our picks back. 100%. It might be messy as hell and we might get them back in '24 '25 '26 ... But I do think we could/would.

However - i think, as you suggested, the chances of proving that are remote as hell.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/09/22 11:11 PM
The thing that sucks the most about this whole thing is that we are going to be mired in this story for AT LEAST the next full year.

This story, and the associated side stories and spin-offs, aren't going anywhere. They will continue to swirl until every last case is resolved. They will continue until he is suspended, and then again throughout the whole suspension. Then, the remainder of whichever season it is he finally takes the field for us, every announcer, writer and sports-personality will have unofficially renamed him from "Deshaun Watson" to "Deshaun Watson, who was suspended for ". That renaming will follow him for YEARS, and perhaps for the entire time he is under contract here. This mess that we're all going back-and-forth on... this is just the very, very beginning of it all; the beginning of a very long and tiresome slog through a bunch of needless drama THAT THIS FO CONSCIOUSLY CHOSE TO SIGN UP FOR.
This story is what they felt we needed as the Face of the Franchise.
Posted By: Squires Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 12:27 AM
If this thing goes south, part of me hopes the FO can't get out of the contract just to teach them a lesson.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 12:58 AM
IMO, if they're going there, the contract is nothing compared to the picks they lost... and those are GONE.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:20 AM
What lesson would they have been taught? Once again, there were 13-15 teams that expressed interest in trading for Watson. Do they all need to be taught a lesson or do sometimes just not work out the way one thought?
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:22 AM
Originally Posted by mgh888
No. As I heard it at the time of the deal and contract .... if things went bad for Watson, the contract might be voidable due to language in the contract. The deal to trade 3 first round picks is non-reversible. The only possible way that could happen is if the Browns could prove beyond doubt that the Texans operated in bad faith, withheld information or were dishonest with their communications with the Browns. I think the draft picks have sailed no matter what.

idk about that. If it turns out Houston knew and didn't divulge, I think it could happen. But it's very unlikely.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:26 AM
There were 4 teams. I don't know where you get 13-15.

None of the teams knew the extent of the sexual harassment, sexual deviancy of DW until the news brought it about, and it does seem almost every day brings new news to light. I know you sold your soul on DW. Might be time to try to buy it back.
Posted By: 3rd_and_20 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:40 AM
j/c:

The 24th Deshaun Watson accuser could give Cleveland Browns the right to void his contract

https://factoryofsadness.co/2022/06...ve-cleveland-browns-right-void-contract/
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:51 AM
Quote
There were 4 teams. I don't know where you get 13-15.

Of course you don't.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 01:58 AM
List the 13-15 teams that were interested, and mad offers. I'll wait.

List them, by name. Thanks in advance.


And further......eh, never mind. I won't ask what that got the Browns, or any other of the 3 that were really interested.

List the 13-15 teams that were REALLY interested in your hero.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:15 AM
I made the remark based on what Shefty said. He is more in-tune w/NFL proceedings than anyone.

Here are the teams off the top of my head:

NO
Carolina
Atlanta
Browns
Indy
Philly
Miami
SF
Denver
NY Giants
Washington
Tampa Bay
Minnesota
New Orleans
Seattle
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:26 AM
I can't believe arch really made me look this up because it was common knowledge, but......here you go:


https://www.profootballnetwork.com/...ssive-suitors-for-franchise-quarterback/
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:27 AM
This will be ignored, but soon to be followed by: "You hate Baker."
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 04:10 AM
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
We draft so well in the 2nd and 3rd rounds we don't even need those 1st round picks!!!

I might not say that, but missing the picks isn't as killer a deal as some might think. At least in the short term. It might hurt us in 5-6 years, but lot's can happen between now and then.

What it might impact is being able to get great players at skill positions. If we draft with that in mind, we can still bring in solid players at nuts and bolts positions. We are also young at many of the top positions like corner. If Watson never plays for us, sure, I'd want the next 2 picks back, but it doesn't have to be a killer.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 11:13 AM
Originally Posted by oobernoober
Originally Posted by mgh888
The only possible way that could happen is if the Browns could prove beyond doubt that the Texans operated in bad faith, withheld information or were dishonest with their communications with the Browns. I think the draft picks have sailed no matter what.

Even if we were able to prove that (huge huge if)... is it still even possible? Keep in mind, they've already spent one of said picks.

If getting picks back is some sort of possibility, which I don't think it is, it would mean Houston dealt in bad faith. We would just get one of their picks along with the remaining picks we sent to them. That wouldn't be hard to fix.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

True. The point remains that we weren't the only team to go after the guy. Many teams wanted to, and some met the qualifying criteria.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

True. The point remains that we weren't the only team to go after the guy. Many teams wanted to, and some met the qualifying criteria.

Not quite true, but I get the sentiment. Indy was the team that was dismissed. Carolina is in the NFC. Houston and Indy are both in the same division in the AFC. I understand the situation just fine about only four met Houston's trade demands, but arch was suggesting I was lying about how many team were interested in trading for Watson. I proved that I was not lying. Period. The number of teams who were interested in trading for Watson has been repeated on the airwaves numerous times. I didn't even think it was a question. arch was just being arch.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 12:07 PM
I was just commenting on the trade deal.

I like both you and Arch, so I just leave all of that alone.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 12:14 PM
I understand, but I am sick of him and others calling me a liar and/or ignorant.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 12:32 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I understand, but I am sick of him and others calling me a liar and/or ignorant.

I understand that as well.

In the end it doesn't matter who you are, we are all going to find various personalities we don't get along with or maybe even dislike.

I do agree there are a few posters who lurk around looking to troll various people. I try to agree with them when I can and if they are honest in their discussion, I will carry a convo. If not, I just write them off, say what i need and just ignore them. At that point they are just typing to be able to read their own words or for any of the fanboys who follow on their words. I am sure some feel the same way about me.

life on a message board.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

True. The point remains that we weren't the only team to go after the guy. Many teams wanted to, and some met the qualifying criteria.

Supposedly, there was also at least one other team that expressed disappointment/anger that they weren't given the opportunity to match Cleveland's offer. I'd be willing to be they're thinking their lucky stars at this point, but that's 100% hindsight.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.

This became an issue for me because where we are now was by no means a surprise. When he was signed *this* was the the issue I raised as a concern. If this was the Dolphins or Falcons my care level would be as small as Watson's massage towel. But we chose to throw idiot money around after he refused us and then faun all over him like 22 accusations were of no reasonable concern whatsoever. I'd wager he has better odds of criminal charges sticking at some point than he does for leading us to the Playoffs. Does Vegas do those type of bets?
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.

As I explained earlier, due diligence can go only so far unless you are the CIA or Jim Rockford.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.

I agree completely.
Though I got the team wrong (which is sad, because I even tried to look for it... don't do stuff when you're distracted by other stuff), I was only pointing out that while there were a large number of teams interested, only 4 were actually interested enough to actually try. The rest were almost certainly of the level where they made the call to find out how low of an offer they could make and then hung up on Houston.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
(which is sad, because I even tried to look for it... don't do stuff when you're distracted by other stuff),

I never do - my kids are locked in the basement playing violent video games. They aren't due to be allowed out for another 12 hours.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
What lesson would they have been taught? Once again, there were 13-15 teams that expressed interest in trading for Watson. Do they all need to be taught a lesson or do sometimes just not work out the way one thought?

Only four of them made any serious desire or offer to acquire him. I guess if you wish to paint the picture that all "13-15" weren't just kicking the tires you would have a point.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.

As I explained earlier, due diligence can go only so far unless you are the CIA or Jim Rockford.

Or the New York Times it would appear.
Posted By: AZBrown Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 05:00 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Due diligence can go only so far unless you are the CIA or Jim Rockford.

I've never considered having a signature during my time on this board, but I'm seriously considering this.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yup.
But, of those, only 4 actually made qualifying offers, and if I remember correctly, one was dismissed immediately (Carolina) due to being in their Division.

To be honest - if 4- 8 - 12 - or 30 other teams had such bankrupt morals and such a poor investigation into what potential future drama might ensue from a trade for DW ... it doesn't make any difference. Just because others were as bad as CLE doesn't help improve our situation or give the organization a pass on not doing their due diligence properly.

As I explained earlier, due diligence can go only so far unless you are the CIA or Jim Rockford.

Or the New York Times it would appear.

The New York Times doesn't have $253M and three 1st round picks invested in Watson ... how they managed to find stuff that the Browns didn't I have no idea .... oh, actually yes I do --- they were actually LOOKING for dirt.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 06:42 PM
While I didn't spell it out the way you did, I agree. Anyone doing a serious, in depth investigation could have uncovered these things. It didn't take the FBI. And for those posters who are young, Rockford was great, but it was a TV show.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
While I didn't spell it out the way you did, I agree. Anyone doing a serious, in depth investigation could have uncovered these things. It didn't take the FBI. And for those posters who are young, Rockford was great, but it was a TV show.


and Columbo was way better, anyway.


Aside from that, you'd think a billionaire with the capacity to have the likes of a former Director of the U.S. Secret Service at his disposal might be able to muster a little bit of actual "in-depth" digging.... at least as much as Jim Rockford, anyway.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 09:02 PM
Rockford had the better opening song though.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 09:14 PM
Rockford was way cooler. He had a trailer home on the beach, a kickass Trans Am, women loved him, and Angel Martin, the most hilarious sidekick ever until Kramer came along.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/10/22 10:45 PM
Finally, some levity.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 12:21 PM
https://www.reddit.com/r/Browns/com...share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3


At least there can be a path forward!
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 02:02 PM
The actor who played Rockford was ugly, and had a terrible voice, so it was a burden to watch.
And shows that involved Private Investigators were stupid in the first place, until Knight Ryder came along.
(actually... The Dukes' of Hazard) --- if you got down to it, < that was a private investigator show, with some slapstick comedy (kind of like Scooby Doo, and Threes' Company) thrown in. And all were better than that boring Rockford Files.
( that's right actually it wasn't Jim Rockford, Rockford was the name of the town, Rockford Illinois, a back-town, like Reno is to Vegas.)
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by THROW LONG
The actor who played Rockford was ugly, and had a terrible voice, so it was a burden to watch.
And shows that involved Private Investigators were stupid in the first place, until Knight Ryder came along.

So a show about a talking car is when you think PI shows improved?… gotcha. That’s pretty much all I need to know. It’s also not surprising coming from you. Lol
Posted By: 3rd_and_20 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 02:36 PM
j/c:

Browns remain all in on Deshaun Watson, not looking to void $230 million contract or trade with Texans, sources say

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...he-230-million-contract-sources-say.html
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 02:43 PM
Glad to hear that the Browns are not considering voiding Watson's contract. I am also happy to hear of the support from the organization and Watson's teammates. This year will most likely be rough, but we could have a great QB on the team for up to a decade. Long-term thinking is smart. I support the Browns and am happy that they have recognized that we needed an upgrade at QB.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 03:56 PM
Good from Andrew Berry to show all these lying women what kind a man the Browns want as their poster boy.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by Dave
a kickass Trans Am

Rockford did not have a Trans Am. He had a basic Firebird. It did however have a 400 motor in it.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 04:55 PM
They have 230 million reasons and six draft picks as to why they really have no choice at the present time. But they have a history of changing their minds on a dime when it comes to public statements and what is allowed to get out by this organization. And one didn't happen very log ago. It too was about a QB. That's why we know they could do a 180 on a dime. The fans believed them then and were lied too. Some seem quite open to buying their BS and believing them again.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by 3rd_and_20
j/c:

Browns remain all in on Deshaun Watson, not looking to void $230 million contract or trade with Texans, sources say

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...he-230-million-contract-sources-say.html

They have no option at this time other than this.
Unless/until enough comes down that allows them to present a solid case to attempt either of those, they'd just be making an even bigger mess of things if they said they were considering it. Their one and ONLY play at this moment is to remain 100% all-in. There isn't another viable option.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 05:27 PM
P.R. 101.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Glad to hear that the Browns are not considering voiding Watson's contract. I am also happy to hear of the support from the organization and Watson's teammates. This year will most likely be rough, but we could have a great QB on the team for up to a decade. Long-term thinking is smart. I support the Browns and am happy that they have recognized that we needed an upgrade at QB.

They weren't going to ditch Baker either... SO don't count on anything until it happens. Goodell might suspend him indefinitely.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Dave
a kickass Trans Am

Rockford did not have a Trans Am. He had a basic Firebird. It did however have a 400 motor in it.

At least a few of your remember. I was afraid by bringing him up many wouldn't know what I was talking about.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/11/22 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Dave
a kickass Trans Am

Rockford did not have a Trans Am. He had a basic Firebird. It did however have a 400 motor in it.

Hat tip ... 45 years dims the details.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 12:17 AM
Man, there were a lot of detective shows from that time period. In addition to Rockford Files and Columbo, we had The Fugitive, Ironsides, Kojak, The Mod Squad, Mannix, Baretta, The Avengers, Hawaii Five-O, Dragnet, The FBI, Mission Impossible, Adam 12, etc.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 12:48 AM
Plus 'Kolchak: The Nightstalker', Starsky & Hutch, Perry Mason (detective-ish), and probably a good deal more.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 12:55 AM
Yeah, I couldn't think of all of them and I probably botched a lot of the spellings. LOL...........I used to love a lot of those shows. Not all of them, but quite a few.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 12:57 AM
Murder, She Wrote. My mom loved that show.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:04 AM
Don't forget Jed Clampett turns detective.....Barnaby Jones! and the fat man's hero, Frank Cannon.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:08 AM
Good ones. Watched both of those shows.

How about McMillan and Wife or something like that?

Would Get Smart be included in this group? LMAO....but still, I loved that show when I was a little kid. It was so dumb, it was hilarious.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:09 AM
How about one of my favorites, The Wild Wild West. Government agents investigating high end criminals in the old west.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:10 AM
The Man From Uncle or something like that. I thought that was pretty good.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:12 AM
There are times that this place can be a lot of fun. I enjoy these types of conversations.
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 01:27 PM
Hunter, Magnum PI, Hill Street Blues, Spencer for Hire, Riptide…
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 02:16 PM
Maybe someone can start a TV detectives thread?
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 02:19 PM
I also remember watching The Untouchables, Highway Patrol, 77 Sunset Strip although some are not "pure" detective shows like Dragnet. But I am also trying to place one I barely remember (which means it wasn't often on — after all, we had just gotten a TV, and it only got three channels). I think its name was Hawaiian Eye; that certainly might have been the model for a later show set in the islands, perhaps. The limited competition was fierce between police/detective shows and the Eternal Western, one cowboys episode trailing after another, rather like the NFL televised schedule we enjoy today. LOLetc.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/12/22 02:48 PM
If you ever find yourself up all night, Me TV has Perry Mason, Mannix, Cannon, Barnaby Jones, Highway Patrol and Dragnet every weeknight. When we're hosting at the campground, we use the over the air digital antenna and that's one of the channels we get.
Posted By: lampdogg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/13/22 12:43 AM
Let’s not forget Charlie’s Angels. Every episode looked great. I mean, WAS great.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/13/22 12:45 AM
LOL Lamp.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/13/22 10:19 PM
BEREA, OHIO - MAY 25: Deshaun Watson #4 of the Cleveland Browns looks on during Browns OTAs at CrossCountry Mortgage Campus on May 25, 2022 in Berea, Ohio. (Photo by Nick Cammett/Getty Images)

Nick Cammett/Getty Images

Deshaun Watson now faces 24 civil lawsuits for alleged sexual assault and misconduct committed during massage sessions. The NFL continues to investigate the Cleveland Browns quarterback to determine whether to punish him for violating the league's personal conduct policy.

On The Pat McAfee Show, NFL Network's Ian Rapoport said the league is expected to make a ruling sometime before training camp commences in late July.

While he believes Watson will likely face a suspension, the length remains uncertain. Rapoport speculated anywhere from four to 10 games, which he acknowledged is a huge gap for a 17-game season.

Cleveland might want to prepare to not have Watson for the longer side of that guess, which could certainly impact the team's contention status.


Quite frankly, Watson's eligibility to play football isn't the important story here.

Two more women filed suits against Watson following an HBO's Real Sports piece that detailed the cases against him and interviewed two accusers, Ashley Solis and Kyla Hayes.

Last week, Jenny Vrentas of the New York Times published a report in which multiple women accused him of initiating sexual contact. Not all women who spoke to Vrentas -- he made massage appointments with at least 66 different women during a 17-month period with the Houston Texans -- have filed a lawsuit.

At this point, some suspension looks like a near certainty.

NFL WOrld Reacts to Deshuan Watson Suspension Prediction
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:29 AM
‘Defcon 1′: Two more lawsuits to be filed against former Texans QB Deshaun Watson, bringing total to 26, sources say

Legal woes continue for former Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson as attorney Tony Buzbee is in the process of filing two more lawsuits against the embattled NFL star, bringing the total number to 26, KPRC 2 has learned.

The amount of accusers is rising after more women come forward, claiming that Watson had inappropriate contact with them during massage therapy sessions.

KPRC2 legal analyst Brian Wice says Watson faces a tough outlook.

“With each additional lawsuit, this litigation continues to reach Defcon 1,” Wice said. “Deshaun Watson is caught in a West Texas hailstorm. He can’t run. He can’t hide and he can’t make it stop.”

The case has captivated headlines across the nation, as one sordid story after another unfolds from the alleged victims. Watson has been cleared of any criminal charges, but the matter has become a civil issue. Still, he and his attorney, Rusty Hardin, maintain Watson’s innocence.

From the beginning, Buzbee has been representing each accuser, saying his number one goal is to get justice.

After the 24th lawsuit was filed last week, Buzbee said the “courageous women who, despite ridicule, legal shenanigans, and intense media scrutiny, continue to stand firm for what is right.”

The first 22 lawsuits were filed in March and April of 2021. Afterward, more women came forward, with some even conducting interviews on HBO’s “Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel.”

Watson has been accused by massage therapists of harassing, assaulting or touching them during appointments when he was with the Houston Texans. Documents show he found most of the women through the social media platform Instagram. In most instances, the women were paid amounts as low as $100 for their services.

In many of the complaints on record, women claim that Watson exposed himself and masturbated in front of them, rarely offering any apologies for his alleged conduct.

Hardin admits that Watson had consensual sexual activity with three of the women, but stressed that the NFL superstar did not force anyone to do anything against their will. The famed attorney came under some scrutiny recently after he said, during a radio interview, that “happy endings” were not against the law.

Watson, a three-time Pro Bowl QB, has recently inked a fully guaranteed five-year, $230 million contract with the Cleveland Browns despite his legal entanglements and pending cases.

In addition to the legal woes, Watson is also facing a possible suspension from the NFL, which is independently investigating his behavior to see if he violated the league’s personal conduct policies.Two More Lawsuites to be filed
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:34 AM
Due diligence my ass Jimmy. You deserve this, I hope it breaks you.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:34 AM
I get that a lot of you want Watson to be suspended and think he's guilty. I find it odd, but I can accept it. I do have a question for you guys. Do you really think that the late additions to the civil suits are a bad thing for Watson or perhaps does it throw more shade on those who are making the allegations due to it taking them so long to speak up and are now doing so because it looks like Watson is almost guaranteed to have to pay them off?
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:40 AM
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud. Look what happens in politics to accusers. After the news report broke about 66 women, and the browns deal going through, I think those two things triggered women to come forward. I was hoping he could clear his name, I don't see that happening now. I think he's guilty as hell. And that sucks for fans like me. Because now I have to decide rather I will even watch while he's under center. Guys in EO's situation have to hate Haslam for this, what other choice do they have? I feel bad for them for sure, hell I feel bad for all of us at this point. I want a Browns Super Bowl as bad as anyone, but not this way.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:42 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Due diligence my ass Jimmy. You deserve this, I hope it breaks you.

The sad thing is that was the concern on Day 1. The pride before the fall. Now it may be that we have to see how bad this ends up being...
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:48 AM
Quote
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud.

Come on, man. I am not ignorant. Don't pretend I am to win an argument. In fact, I brought that up in my very first post on the situation w/Watson and his accusers. I am talking about the timing and 24s claims that didn't match the claims of others.

Again, I get that some of you desperately want him to be guilty and he very well may be guilty. On the other hand, I can see how stories got embellished when both parties knew this was about sex from the get-go.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 12:50 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud. Look what happens in politics to accusers. After the news report broke about 66 women, and the browns deal going through, I think those two things triggered women to come forward. I was hoping he could clear his name, I don't see that happening now. I think he's guilty as hell. And that sucks for fans like me. Because now I have to decide rather I will even watch while he's under center. Guys in EO's situation have to hate Haslam for this, what other choice do they have? I feel bad for them for sure, hell I feel bad for all of us at this point. I want a Browns Super Bowl as bad as anyone, but not this way.

I guess the upside is we are down to only a possible 40 more future lawsuits, maybe?
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I get that a lot of you want Watson to be suspended and think he's guilty. I find it odd, but I can accept it. I do have a question for you guys. Do you really think that the late additions to the civil suits are a bad thing for Watson or perhaps does it throw more shade on those who are making the allegations due to it taking them so long to speak up and are now doing so because it looks like Watson is almost guaranteed to have to pay them off?
Did you ever forget to send that birthday text... then days later you're like "pfftt... if I sent it now I'd would feel like an idiot"? On the surface, this isn't much different.

Beneath the surface, women who experience everything running the "sex gamut", from harassment to actual rape, feel guilty. Guilty like they did something to cause it, guilty for smiling or harmless flirting, etc, etc... but once they don't come forward immediately, it usually takes something drastic to change their mind. So whether they are a victim or a "gold-digger", an event such as the HBO special becomes impetus and an acceptable reason for either woman.

I think there are a decent amount of people with your point of view, although most won't say it out loud. I think it's a fair response, but it's basically DOA because there are so many accusations. Just as it is "unfair" to assume guilt, it would be outright ludicrous to think Watson is 100% "innocent". Assuming some of the women are lying is fine... trying to affix dishonesty on any single woman, strictly because of the timetable would be unfair, imo.

You also have to remember, we're living in a time where everyone is a "victim" and even second-guessing anyone's victimhood is vilified to the highest degree.

So yes, these are a very bad thing for Watson.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:11 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud.

Come on, man. I am not ignorant. Don't pretend I am to win an argument. In fact, I brought that up in my very first post on the situation w/Watson and his accusers. I am talking about the timing and 24s claims that didn't match the claims of others.

Again, I get that some of you desperately want him to be guilty and he very well may be guilty. On the other hand, I can see how stories got embellished when both parties knew this was about sex from the get-go.

I didn't read that post and was just answering with my POV, chill. And I don't desperately want him to be guilty, but the picture sure as hell is looking like he is. I'm sold that he is as matter of fact, and that doesn't have a damn thing to due with me liking baker or whatever the hell you post. It's kind of out in the open for all to judge, and the last few weeks have swayed me to feel he's guilty.

And one last thing, I get your stance, you get mine. Why does it have to be more than that? Are you really that freaking fragile that everyone has to be 100% in the agreement or somehow you feel attacked? Bro, you come across like that rather you mean to or not, and I know you're not like that. Just relax, it's going to play out however it plays out.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:16 AM
I am far from fragile and I don't feel attacked in the slightest. Not sure where that is coming from? I could care less if others agree w/me. I just want to speak my piece. It's not like I am insulting anyone. Just giving my take.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by FATE
Beneath the surface, women who experience everything running the "sex gamut", from harassment to actual rape, feel guilty. Guilty like they did something to cause it, guilty for smiling or harmless flirting, etc, etc... but once they don't come forward immediately, it usually takes something drastic to change their mind. So whether they are a victim or a "gold-digger", an event such as the HBO special becomes impetus and an acceptable reason for either woman.

I think there are a decent amount of people with your point of view, although most won't say it out loud. I think it's a fair response, but it's basically DOA because there are so many accusations. Just as it is "unfair" to assume guilt, it would be outright ludicrous to think Watson is 100% "innocent". Assuming some of the women are lying is fine... trying to affix dishonesty on any single woman, strictly because of the timetable would be unfair, imo.

You also have to remember, we're living in a time where everyone is a "victim" and even second-guessing anyone's victimhood is vilified to the highest degree.

So yes, these are a very bad thing for Watson.

Concerning this is coming out of Atlanta. Problematic if a criminal complaint gets filed in a new jurisdiction.



Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:14 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
Did you ever forget to send that birthday text... then days later you're like "pfftt... if I sent it now I'd would feel like an idiot"? On the surface, this isn't much different.

Beneath the surface, women who experience everything running the "sex gamut", from harassment to actual rape, feel guilty. Guilty like they did something to cause it, guilty for smiling or harmless flirting, etc, etc... but once they don't come forward immediately, it usually takes something drastic to change their mind. So whether they are a victim or a "gold-digger", an event such as the HBO special becomes impetus and an acceptable reason for either woman.

I think there are a decent amount of people with your point of view, although most won't say it out loud. I think it's a fair response, but it's basically DOA because there are so many accusations. Just as it is "unfair" to assume guilt, it would be outright ludicrous to think Watson is 100% "innocent". Assuming some of the women are lying is fine... trying to affix dishonesty on any single woman, strictly because of the timetable would be unfair, imo.

You also have to remember, we're living in a time where everyone is a "victim" and even second-guessing anyone's victimhood is vilified to the highest degree.

So yes, these are a very bad thing for Watson.

One of the best and most straight forward posts on the issue.

On this issue of the delay in reporting any misconduct - I do understand how on the one hand it might be bad optics but to focus on that is really to miss the overwhelming data that supports that most sexual assaults go completely unreported. I have seen various very high numbers from 70-80% of instances go totally unreported. Here's an article that suggests 80% .... with that in mind, I won't be casting any shade on these new cases coming forward.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-w...sault-remains-dramatically-underreported
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 01:18 PM
And while we're here - I keep seeing posts claiming posters WANT Watson to be guilty.

I don't believe that - perhaps posters can clarify: Do you WANT him to be guilty ? Or do you WANT him to be held accountable if he is Guilty.

I know I am in the second category - and it doesn't matter if he did it just once or 20 times, any sexual abuse through manipulation, power, influence, coercion - it would mean he is a sexual predator/abuser.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 02:18 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud. Look what happens in politics to accusers. After the news report broke about 66 women, and the browns deal going through, I think those two things triggered women to come forward. I was hoping he could clear his name, I don't see that happening now. I think he's guilty as hell. And that sucks for fans like me. Because now I have to decide rather I will even watch while he's under center. Guys in EO's situation have to hate Haslam for this, what other choice do they have? I feel bad for them for sure, hell I feel bad for all of us at this point. I want a Browns Super Bowl as bad as anyone, but not this way.


I have a ton of thoughts on Watson, many disjointed and even conflicting. I'll throw 2 out there right now.

1. Buzbee stated that he started getting a bunch of calls from additional women due to the HBO special. I'm really conflicted on this piece of info.
2. I think that when all is said and done, the decision to name the Texans org as defendants will go down as a major strategic mistake on Buzbee's part. I think he's taking a huge risk in poking a sleeping bear. Despite all the sordid details coming out right now, the nature of htese allegations are still in the 'he said-she said' bucket (legally speaking), and putting an org like the NFL (one that has a pretty strong history of doing anything and everything to maintain its (fake) squeaky clean image) on the opposite side of the table is going to start making it feel like he's pushing a boulder up a sand dune. I would expect that the NFL is just going to Dan Snyder this thing if their fate is now tied to Watson's.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 02:40 PM
Apparently one of the new lawsuits will be out of Atlanta, which is a whole new jurisdiction to worry about now.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 03:04 PM
Interesting points - especially point 2. Point 1 - as I mentioned above, 80% of sexual assaults go unreported. I have no problem if someone gains courage and comes forward learning that there are others - look at what happened with the Me Too movement. Decades of abuse came to light on the back of women finding strength to come forward. Is there potential for gravy train riders? Yes - Is it likely all 28 (is that the number?) are all lying conniving, scheming sex workers who are trying to get rich after a mutual exchange? No, in fact it's a fantastically tiny chance that's the case.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 04:00 PM
Certainly not all 20'some, but maybe moreso these latest ones. Like I said, I'm conflicted.... you obviously can't dismiss any without them getting their time in court... unless this is part of the strategy in getting Watson to settle (while upping the price for every day that ticks by).

And then skipping to the end... what does the "right" endpoint look like (with the caveat that we don't have all the info)? As more info comes out, with the understanding that maybe none of these allegations are going to be proven in court, it seems like Watson has signed himself up for (therefore deserves) every single bit of the headache he's going through right now... and by extension, the Browns do as well. So if the accusers, the lawyers, the league, the media, etc are all entitled to their pound of flesh, then what does that leave for the Browns team and fanbase?
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 04:06 PM
Personally I think it looks like a Poop Sandwich for the Browns fan base. While the talent of DW is undeniable - at some point in the chaos and disruption and unpleasant/vileness of what he is accused of - the cost is too high. Some seem to have already seem to have reached a point where they have decided it was a bad trade, no matter what winning football the Browns eventually play with DW as the starting QB (assuming he does) ... others seem to applaud the decision to win at all costs (trade/contract/morals) - many like you and me don't know what it means, how it will end, when DW will play and maybe all we can try to get our heads around is we probably will have to deal with rooting for a team with (at best) an unsavory, flawed character at QB.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by oobernoober
So if the accusers, the lawyers, the league, the media, etc are all entitled to their pound of flesh, then what does that leave for the Browns team and fanbase?

Apparently we got notoriety.
[Linked Image from i.redd.it]
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 05:20 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
Not coming forward is the norm in many cases similar to this. Women get drug through the mud.

Come on, man. I am not ignorant. Don't pretend I am to win an argument. In fact, I brought that up in my very first post on the situation w/Watson and his accusers. I am talking about the timing and 24s claims that didn't match the claims of others.

If you knew this, why did you bring it up? 24's claims are much like some of the others.

Quote
Again, I get that some of you desperately want him to be guilty and he very well may be guilty.

You keep perpetuating this lie. Nobody wanted the Browns to put themselves in this position. Nobody wanted this to be true. Nobody wants their team to put a pervert at the position of QB. What some of us do is not believe that all 24 and counting, women are lying. We are not willing to twist in our brains that all of these women are making this up. We are not willing to label all of these women and their attorney as scum to try and justify watson. But you just keep doing you.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 05:35 PM
j/c:



Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 06:22 PM
I will say he talks a good game.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 07:40 PM
j/c:

Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I will say he talks a good game.


If he is innocent then 95 percent of America needs to get down on their knees and forgive him. I Think the truth lies in the middle between his claims and the womans.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:07 PM
What does that look like? Somewhere in the middle? I'm not sure I can understand what that means in terms of what happened. Not being funny, genuinely unsure.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:17 PM
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:41 PM
We went from Cinderella Sweethearts as people called US America's team for a couple of years, to untouchables all due to one player being added. This is what the fanbase gets out of it. And maybe, we will get to see DW win a bunch of games. Meanwhile, each of us gets to internalize what that means to us as diehard Browns fans. A crap sandwich is exactly how it feels right now.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:47 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.

This is pretty much how I feel, but I hope he's guilty of much less than he's charged with.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I will say he talks a good game.


If he is innocent then 95 percent of America needs to get down on their knees and forgive him. I Think the truth lies in the middle between his claims and the womans.

You're probably right. But what does in the middle mean, and can we be proud of our team with him leading it? If in the middle means he only forced himself on a few of them, not so good. If it means he never crossed a line and only had consensual sex with a handful of them while cheating on his wife (or girlfriend, not sure), is that acceptable? I could live with the latter and still root for him. His wife/girl can leave if she wants or stay and forgive him; that's between them. But if he's a predator? Nope. No amount of forgiveness will change that perception or polish that turd. I don't care if he's the second coming of Johnny Unitas and his 4 championships.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.

This is pretty much I feel, as well. Not sure I'm right, but that is my opinion. And like jfan, I hope he is innocent rather than hoping he is guilty. It's kinda like when there is a wreck on the interstate. So many slow down to get a look at the carnage. I never look and instead say a quick, silent prayer that all will be good.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
We went from Cinderella Sweethearts as people called US America's team for a couple of years, to untouchables all due to one player being added. This is what the fanbase gets out of it. And maybe, we will get to see DW win a bunch of games. Meanwhile, each of us gets to internalize what that means to us as diehard Browns fans. A crap sandwich is exactly how it feels right now.

We get to lose bandwagon fans? Oh the horror.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/14/22 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.

Thanks. I guess I am right there with you. I don't think there was physical force used. I think a whole bunch of unsavory went on, that was not consensual or expected by the women. Where you and I might differ is the impact of that pressure, authority, manipulation, coercion. To me that's a huge issue. DW might be completely ignorant of why or how it's such a big deal ... but being a horny dude and putting (up to) 66 women in a situation and then having an escalating "routine" that manipulates the situation to a sexual scenario is serious. Most especially because consensual options would be available if he wanted.

And while I can say I hope he is innocent on all levels - logic dictates that's not the case.
Posted By: Bull_Dawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
j/c:


I feel like Buzbee is trying to bait Watson. If he went to therapy, Buzbee's argument would be "why are you seeking help if you don't have a problem?" At this point, Watson might as well stick with his strategy, especially if it's the truth.
Posted By: Bull_Dawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:16 AM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.

Thanks. I guess I am right there with you. I don't think there was physical force used. I think a whole bunch of unsavory went on, that was not consensual or expected by the women. Where you and I might differ is the impact of that pressure, authority, manipulation, coercion. To me that's a huge issue. DW might be completely ignorant of why or how it's such a big deal ... but being a horny dude and putting (up to) 66 women in a situation and then having an escalating "routine" that manipulates the situation to a sexual scenario is serious. Most especially because consensual options would be available if he wanted.

And while I can say I hope he is innocent on all levels - logic dictates that's not the case.

Who is to say that the women weren't the ones applying pressure? What if it wasn't consensual or expected on DeShaun's end? They're "medical professionals" and had Watson in a "vulnerable" position. If a dude cries rape, he's a laughingstock. If a woman implies it, she's a cultural icon. The assumptions and double standards are just interesting in modern society.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:17 AM
I was trying hard to feel that way until his attorney said what he said in court, another 4 women joined the conversation (not that the first 22 weren't enough), and then the article about 66 women over 17 months. NOPE, where there is that much smoke, there is fire. He might not be an out-and-out rapist or predator, but this guy is sick and disgusting from my POV. Now if he proves his innocence I'll eat my words and do a 180 on him, but right now, I don't believe a word out of his mouth OR any feel-good crap put out in his favor. Vers is right about one thing, I don't want him to take the field for us until this is cleared up one way or the other. I think the last 30 years have been shame enough for us fans, we don't need another MEGA lesson in that crap.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Who is to say that the women weren't the ones applying pressure? What if it wasn't consensual or expected on DeShaun's end? They're "medical professionals" and had Watson in a "vulnerable" position. If a dude cries rape, he's a laughingstock. If a woman implies it, she's a cultural icon. The assumptions and double standards are just interesting in modern society.

If that's what you want to believe - go ahead. I'm not stopping you. I think you'd have to be really be trying even more hard than usual to be the contrived contrarian to think 28 women accused DW of something when he was the victim. I think you'd have to be trying even harder than that to think DW put himself in that situation and was abused by these women and he did went back 66 times in 17 months.

But that's your right.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:38 AM
Quote
At this point, Watson might as well stick with his strategy, especially if it's the truth.

To him, it is the truth. To the women, or at least some, it is the truth.
Posted By: Bull_Dawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Who is to say that the women weren't the ones applying pressure? What if it wasn't consensual or expected on DeShaun's end? They're "medical professionals" and had Watson in a "vulnerable" position. If a dude cries rape, he's a laughingstock. If a woman implies it, she's a cultural icon. The assumptions and double standards are just interesting in modern society.

If that's what you want to believe - go ahead. I'm not stopping you. I think you'd have to be really be trying even more hard than usual to be the contrived contrarian to think 28 women accused DW of something when he was the victim. I think you'd have to be trying even harder than that to think DW put himself in that situation and was abused by these women and he did went back 66 times in 17 months.

But that's your right.

I don't believe anything particular in this case, other than our society's tendency to rush to judgement and the strangeness of "our" one sided approach to "equality."

His going to the next masseuse because the previous one made him uncomfortable isn't that crazy an idea. His job requires bodywork. It's not like he can just sit at home alone on his couch and have his body miraculously perform at peak capability. Maybe he's "shy" in one on one encounters with women. We know about his public persona, but we only assume his private one is the same (or for some, a much worse one.) Maybe something about that unknown private persona makes him a likely mark. There's a lot we don't know.

We frequently talk about how few sex crimes are reported and/or lead to convictions. How few men report them? I imagine the percentage is even smaller than for women. What would be the backlash if a professional athlete (especially a football player) reported them? It's not something many men would admit.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 12:05 PM
While I will not say that Watson is guilty, I also won't say that there is any chance of him being a victim of sexual misconduct. Not trying to convince you otherwise, but I can't see that at all.

I am still willing to allow the legal system to determine the outcome of these cases, but it seems to me that having sex was probably the motive and that both parties understood that. Some seem to think that having sex is a bad thing. I don't know....maybe things have changed a lot since I was in my teens and 20s, but almost all of us were trying to have sex w/multiple partners. Also, while a poster or two tries to act like the idea of famous people paying for sex is a new idea, it is indeed a reality because it was supposed to reduce the amount of attempts made by money-grabbers. I don't get the sense that Watson forced himself on these women by physically grabbing them and making them do things against their will. I could be wrong about that, though. Lastly, I look at the handful of posters who have already determined Watson's guilt and are desperately trying to get others to agree w/them and have noticed something. They talk about morals and how they can't root for the man, but other than Flo, all of them are among the very most morally corrupt individuals on this board. They lie. They misquote people to win arguments. They gang up on those they disagree with. They viciously attack others daily. Then, they turn around and talk about morals. Fake outrage.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 12:47 PM
Really at this point - if you want to come up with "plausible" constructs that are closer to impossible than they are to possible - there's little point in engaging.

There's absolutely a ton we don't know. And to use a famous phrase - there are unknown unknowns. There's also a ton we do know. There's stuff we know that lacks context. There's stuff we know that amounts to overwhelming abnormality for a pro athlete. So it's absolutely fair to discuss and ask questions about that.

Coming up with scenarios that DW is a victim. That he might be an alien (something we can't disprove). Or whatever other far flung "what if" - doesn't make a case for DW more or less guilty or innocent. It just deflects. Just how I see it. Contrived contrary arguments are just that - contrived.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
While I will not say that Watson is guilty, I also won't say that there is any chance of him being a victim of sexual misconduct. Not trying to convince you otherwise, but I can't see that at all.

I am still willing to allow the legal system to determine the outcome of these cases, but it seems to me that having sex was probably the motive and that both parties understood that. Some seem to think that having sex is a bad thing. I don't know....maybe things have changed a lot since I was in my teens and 20s, but almost all of us were trying to have sex w/multiple partners. Also, while a poster or two tries to act like the idea of famous people paying for sex is a new idea, it is indeed a reality because it was supposed to reduce the amount of attempts made by money-grabbers. I don't get the sense that Watson forced himself on these women by physically grabbing them and making them do things against their will. I could be wrong about that, though. Lastly, I look at the handful of posters who have already determined Watson's guilt and are desperately trying to get others to agree w/them and have noticed something. They talk about morals and how they can't root for the man, but other than Flo, all of them are among the very most morally corrupt individuals on this board. They lie. They misquote people to win arguments. They gang up on those they disagree with. They viciously attack others daily. Then, they turn around and talk about morals. Fake outrage.

Funny that you talk about not name calling.
You talk about misquoting posters.
You talk about lying.

Yet here you are - name calling. You are misrepresenting what posters are doing - no-one is trying to convince others, just expressing opinions. As for lying - I personally think you hold that crown. But you do you Vers. I'll repeat - 90% of the snark and angst were gone from this board when you weren't posting. I guess that's coincidence.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:41 PM
Nope. If it were to come out that Deshaun arranged to have sex with these women before they showed up, instead of the women thinking they were just there to give him a massage, then he would be innocent in my eyes. But at this point, I don't believe that is remotely likely. What is likely, in my opinion, is that Deshaun wanted easy sex. So he arranged the massages as just massages, then turned the tables on these girls once they were in a controlled environment; then, he used his celebrity and financial status to either get his desired ends or silence those who might speak out against him. If this is the case, he's a predator. And that's the way I think this unfolded currently. I haven't slammed the door shut on him being innocent, but the more I hear, the more it looks like there is little chance of that.

BUT, and this is where you probably think I'm condemning him unfairly, after learning what we have learned and processing it, then trying to remain neutral in not judging... there has just been too much put out for me to support him playing while this is unresolved. NOPE. He should be benched until we know what he is guilty or not guilty of, IMO. And I think this is where the Browns' "due diligence" went wrong. I can't imagine they knew about 66 women and the possibility of numerous more allegations coming down the pike before inking $230 Million fully guaranteed. From a business standpoint, it looks idiotic.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope. BUt that is my opinion only and I have no proof. I hope he is guilty of nothing more than he is charged with, but he may be guilty of a whole lot more. I don't pretend to know, but I also am not going to hang him out to dry when I don't know.

Thanks. I guess I am right there with you. I don't think there was physical force used. I think a whole bunch of unsavory went on, that was not consensual or expected by the women. Where you and I might differ is the impact of that pressure, authority, manipulation, coercion. To me that's a huge issue. DW might be completely ignorant of why or how it's such a big deal ... but being a horny dude and putting (up to) 66 women in a situation and then having an escalating "routine" that manipulates the situation to a sexual scenario is serious. Most especially because consensual options would be available if he wanted.

And while I can say I hope he is innocent on all levels - logic dictates that's not the case.

Pretty much this. I wish he were innocent because it would be nice to be able to feel good about rooting for this team, but given everything that has been coming out on this, I see little chance of that actually being reality.
Given his testimony, his actual words, regarding the one woman who left in tears and ended up quitting her job over it, I believe that HE believes he is innocent, but only because he doesn't see anything wrong with what he did. I think he simply doesn't recognize that the things he did, the things he is accused of, are wrong and that those things make him the monster.

From the bits of his testimony we've gotten, to what we've gotten from the women, to the payment made to the massage place owner, etc.... there is just far too much there for it to not be what everyone wishes it wasn't and for all of this to be simply misunderstandings and coincidences.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 02:08 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Nope. If it were to come out that Deshaun arranged to have sex with these women before they showed up, instead of the women thinking they were just there to give him a massage, then he would be innocent in my eyes. But at this point, I don't believe that is remotely likely. What is likely, in my opinion, is that Deshaun wanted easy sex. So he arranged the massages as just massages, then turned the tables on these girls once they were in a controlled environment; then, he used his celebrity and financial status to either get his desired ends or silence those who might speak out against him. If this is the case, he's a predator. And that's the way I think this unfolded currently. I haven't slammed the door shut on him being innocent, but the more I hear, the more it looks like there is little chance of that.

BUT, and this is where you probably think I'm condemning him unfairly, after learning what we have learned and processing it, then trying to remain neutral in not judging... there has just been too much put out for me to support him playing while this is unresolved. NOPE. He should be benched until we know what he is guilty or not guilty of, IMO. And I think this is where the Browns' "due diligence" went wrong. I can't imagine they knew about 66 women and the possibility of numerous more allegations coming down the pike before inking $230 Million fully guaranteed. From a business standpoint, it looks idiotic.

I somewhat closely parallel your thoughts. In your first scenario I would worry they agreed to sex and then the women backed out being a possibility as well.

My concerns started with the Browns putting the team in this position. This whole thing screamed 'Explosive' from the start. The idea that we did 'Our due diligence' is scary as that means either this is an acceptable outcome or our due diligence sucks arse.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 02:35 PM
They said they did their due diligence, five months worth, and they had constructed a plan to repair his public image as part of this. I think they simply grossly underestimated the enormity of it.

When the issue was in another city and he wasn't playing for the team that had him under contract, the story was quiet, so it didn't seem like much. A sleeping giant. Afterall, if he is essentially out of football, the story isn't nearly as big. However, as soon as you make a record-shattering trade and guarantee a quarter Billion dollars to the individual and he's no longer poised to continue to sit out, the sleeping giant that is the story awakens. I don't think they fully anticipated the magnitude of that, and the continued addition of more suits has further amplified it and continued to erode the number of people that wanted/tried/pretended to believe his innocence.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 03:55 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Who is to say that the women weren't the ones applying pressure? What if it wasn't consensual or expected on DeShaun's end? They're "medical professionals" and had Watson in a "vulnerable" position. If a dude cries rape, he's a laughingstock. If a woman implies it, she's a cultural icon. The assumptions and double standards are just interesting in modern society.

If that's what you want to believe - go ahead. I'm not stopping you. I think you'd have to be really be trying even more hard than usual to be the contrived contrarian to think 28 women accused DW of something when he was the victim. I think you'd have to be trying even harder than that to think DW put himself in that situation and was abused by these women and he did went back 66 times in 17 months.

But that's your right.

He doesn't really believe that. It's just another far fetched what if scenario to throw shade on all of these women by throwing out a virtually impossible scenario.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
IMO and only IMO he looks like a creep. I don't believe he is guilty of everything he is acussed of. However I believe he is guilty of being a creep but not guilty of attacking any women. Pressering... yep, exposing himself.... yep. Raping anybody... nope, forcing anybody... nope.

So is ejaculating on an unsuspecting woman, "just being a creep"? Is purposefully exposing yourself to unsuspecting women, "just being a creep"?

I ask this because if you "think he's guilty of some of it" where do you draw the line of "just being a creep"? Do you believe someone has to actually rape someone or physically force themselves on a woman to be anything more than "just a creep"?

I have a feeling that if he did this to a woman you know well as a close personal friend you would find it to be a lot more than that.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
We went from Cinderella Sweethearts as people called US America's team for a couple of years, to untouchables all due to one player being added. This is what the fanbase gets out of it. And maybe, we will get to see DW win a bunch of games. Meanwhile, each of us gets to internalize what that means to us as diehard Browns fans. A crap sandwich is exactly how it feels right now.

We get to lose bandwagon fans? Oh the horror.

Sure, if that's what you call people that put the abuse of women over a sports team. There's names for people who don't too.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 04:06 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
While I will not say that Watson is guilty, I also won't say that there is any chance of him being a victim of sexual misconduct. Not trying to convince you otherwise, but I can't see that at all.

I am still willing to allow the legal system to determine the outcome of these cases, but it seems to me that having sex was probably the motive and that both parties understood that. Some seem to think that having sex is a bad thing. I don't know....maybe things have changed a lot since I was in my teens and 20s, but almost all of us were trying to have sex w/multiple partners. Also, while a poster or two tries to act like the idea of famous people paying for sex is a new idea, it is indeed a reality because it was supposed to reduce the amount of attempts made by money-grabbers. I don't get the sense that Watson forced himself on these women by physically grabbing them and making them do things against their will. I could be wrong about that, though. Lastly, I look at the handful of posters who have already determined Watson's guilt and are desperately trying to get others to agree w/them and have noticed something. They talk about morals and how they can't root for the man, but other than Flo, all of them are among the very most morally corrupt individuals on this board. They lie. They misquote people to win arguments. They gang up on those they disagree with. They viciously attack others daily. Then, they turn around and talk about morals. Fake outrage.

Funny that you talk about not name calling.
You talk about misquoting posters.
You talk about lying.

Yet here you are - name calling. You are misrepresenting what posters are doing - no-one is trying to convince others, just expressing opinions. As for lying - I personally think you hold that crown. But you do you Vers. I'll repeat - 90% of the snark and angst were gone from this board when you weren't posting. I guess that's coincidence.

That's his MO. Do what he accuses others of, play the victim and act like he doesn't do the exact same thing.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 04:52 PM
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.
Posted By: Frenchy Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 04:58 PM
So the cop Baker said a woman just gave Watson a bj, because he was DW. She said he didn’t ask for it, didn’t ask for anything, he just took it. Very long read, but that is at the bottom.

https://sports.yahoo.com/tense-depo...cence-coercion-vs-consent-010619990.html

I will also wait to get all the evidence but I think this happened alot to DW. And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month.

So a new person every 10 days. And you used 'only' before that?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 05:12 PM
So, you ignored the rest of the post to poke fun at Frenchy?
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:09 PM
As always you miss a point trying to show how clever you are.
Posted By: Frenchy Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by Frenchy
And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month.

So a new person every 10 days. And you used 'only' before that?

1 every 10 days is nowhere near excessive imo.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
As always you miss a point trying to show how clever you are.

If that's the only BS you have to spread I suggest you park your manure spreader.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by Frenchy
And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month.

So a new person every 10 days. And you used 'only' before that?

1 every 10 days is nowhere near excessive imo.

Thanks for the on-topic response! I'd imagine finding and arranging a new masseuse every 10 days would have to be quite laborious, almost a job in itself.


Edit: Of course if you kept a spreadsheet of women that have used and have no further interest that would help.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:24 PM
Especially when the team you played for has them on staff.
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 and 2023 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

FIFY
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:42 PM
On topic? This was the actual topic of Frenchy's post.


Quote
So the cop Baker said a woman just gave Watson a bj, because he was DW. She said he didn’t ask for it, didn’t ask for anything, he just took it. Very long read, but that is at the bottom.

https://sports.yahoo.com/tense-depo...cence-coercion-vs-consent-010619990.html

You ignored all of that, which has a lot more to do w/the topic of Watson's Legal Issues than this: "And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month."

Let's just ignore that evidence because it doesn't fit your agenda. At least you didn't say Frenchy was mentally ill.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:51 PM
Yeah, one story out of 66 holds a TON of weight! Sometimes I don't actually believe you hear yourself. And I'm sure that has nothing to do with why she felt watson committed a crime. Would you like to see why she said that? Nah, you don't care about that part.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Yeah, one story out of 66 holds a TON of weight! Sometimes I don't actually believe you hear yourself. And I'm sure that has nothing to do with why she felt watson committed a crime. Would you like to see why she said that? Nah, you don't care about that part.

It's much easier to just ignore him, unless you are doing it for the post count. He is not well.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:19 PM
Quote
He is not well.

Another mental health putdown? As I said before, look at the character of those who are so morally offended by Watson being on the Browns.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

The worst would be that he never plays a down as a Brown and the browns still have to pay him and lose all the picks. I'd say that's an actual possibility at this point.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
So, you ignored the rest of the post to poke fun at Frenchy?

[Linked Image from lexicallab.com]
Posted By: dawg66 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

The worst would be that he never plays a down as a Brown and the browns still have to pay him and lose all the picks. I'd say that's an actual possibility at this point.


That's why I had asked the question about the NFL stepping in and maybe giving us our picks back if he's not going to be able to play.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
He is not well.

Another mental health putdown? As I said before, look at the character of those who are so morally offended by Watson being on the Browns.

I'd say the opposite. Look at the character of those who aren't morally offended. Since you want to go there. Shall we discuss that?
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by dawg66
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

The worst would be that he never plays a down as a Brown and the browns still have to pay him and lose all the picks. I'd say that's an actual possibility at this point.


That's why I had asked the question about the NFL stepping in and maybe giving us our picks back if he's not going to be able to play.

The best thing is to hope they don't let it get to that point. But any settlement at this point will look like a stain on the Browns and DW for a long ass time IMO.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by dawg66
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

The worst would be that he never plays a down as a Brown and the browns still have to pay him and lose all the picks. I'd say that's an actual possibility at this point.


That's why I had asked the question about the NFL stepping in and maybe giving us our picks back if he's not going to be able to play.

Under different circumstances I could see something similar happen. But we went whole hog on a player in a precarious position and set records doing it. I have a feeling the NFL will be more inclined to let the lesson be learned the hard way in that scenario.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 09:53 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
He is not well.

Another mental health putdown? As I said before, look at the character of those who are so morally offended by Watson being on the Browns.

So how many times have you called Baker a Mental Midget? How many times have you called him an emotional midget? Dozens? Hundreds?

You realize both those are double whammy's because not only are you doing a mental put down you are compounding it by using the insulting term "midget" ... But we know, one rule for you and a different set of rules for everyone else.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Originally Posted by LexDawg
Originally Posted by Frenchy
And 66 in 17 months is only 3 a month.

So a new person every 10 days. And you used 'only' before that?

1 every 10 days is nowhere near excessive imo.

One massage every 10 days is not excessive.
Finding a new masseuse every 10 days is BEYOND EXCESSIVE.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/15/22 11:37 PM
j/c: I have never once called Baker a mental midget. It is yet another lie being told over and over and over again by 888. I have let it go because I try really hard not to respond to him and Pit, not because I am afraid to argue w/them, but the bickering ruins threads. But, enough is enough. He does this repeatedly w/so many things. Just makes them up and says them over and over.

I have called Baker an emotional midget many times. I truly believe he is emotionally underdeveloped and his actions back up that claim, just as the "adult" comment from someone in the organization suggests. Maybe he should grow the hell up and man up? And no, I will not respond to 888's next post or Pit's when he clocks in tomorrow.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by dawg66
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
I don't know what the outcome of all this will be. I'm just preparing myself for the worse, possibly not having DW for the entire 2022 season. IN the meantime, I'll hope for the best.

The worst would be that he never plays a down as a Brown and the browns still have to pay him and lose all the picks. I'd say that's an actual possibility at this point.


That's why I had asked the question about the NFL stepping in and maybe giving us our picks back if he's not going to be able to play.


Not for a civil matter. If it was criminal, I might agree.

Just a general question. Does anyone at this point think Watson can get a fair trial if it comes to that?

Remember, fair means fair on both sides of the matter.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 11:01 AM
Quote
So is ejaculating on an unsuspecting woman, "just being a creep"? Is purposefully exposing yourself to unsuspecting women, "just being a creep"?

How many women did he ejaculate on Pit? How many women did he expose himself to? Why would any woman in her right mind keep massaging him while he was exposing himself? Why would they keep massaging him while he played with himself? Why wouldn't they leave?

Quote
I ask this because if you "think he's guilty of some of it" where do you draw the line of "just being a creep"? Do you believe someone has to actually rape someone or physically force themselves on a woman to be anything more than "just a creep"?

Could DW be a sex addict instead of just a creep.... yep... is he???
Does exposing yourself make you a rapist, or sexual preditor???
Does wishing for a happy ending a crime???


Quote
I have a feeling that if he did this to a woman you know well as a close personal friend you would find it to be a lot more than that.

I have a feeling that if this happened to a woman I know, that she would have left the room and not returned as soon as he started letting his junk hang free, and have run from the room if he started playing with it.


Like I said I think he is a creep. I get that sick disgusted feeling in the Pit of my stomach when I think about him being our QB. But I'm a Browns fan and I root for the Browns. there have been many Browns players over the years who were creeps, as well as lots of other NFL players current and past who were/are creeps.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 12:52 PM
Not if there are any females on the jury.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not if there are any females on the jury.

Not just them. Read the board. I don't see many females posting all day about the guy.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not if there are any females on the jury.

Not just them. Read the board. I don't see many females posting all day about the guy.

Other than Eve and Sk8termom, I'm not aware of any current female posters. (There may be some that I didn't know were females.) The board used to have a small but vocal group of females, but since Watson I haven't seen them. I'd be interested to hear from Jules, or especially Dawg Michelle, who I believe is a massage therapist. Others like Iambrown, Dawgylama, Nursedawg, Couchgirl, ONB, and a few more, all dropped out a while ago. I wish they were still here, I liked reading them.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 03:06 PM
You know what - if it wasn't you calling Baker a Mental Midget, but you have been using the term Emotional Midget - I will apologize. Someone for damn sure has used that phrase a LOT and since you are one of the most frequent posters to chastise and belittle Baker any chance you get, it was pretty natural for me to think it was probably you. But go and spin that any way you like.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
[quote]How many women did he ejaculate on Pit? How many women did he expose himself to? Why would any woman in her right mind keep massaging him while he was exposing himself? Why would they keep massaging him while he played with himself? Why wouldn't they leave?

Some of the women have mentioned being a single parent and being afraid he would impact their livelihood because they did not do as he wanted. There is a term for it that escapes me right now, but it has to do with coercing someone into sex due to being in a position of power over them. This was one of my concerns as Watson maintains his innocence, he could possibly have no clue how his behaviors impacted these women.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 03:56 PM
j/c:

NFLPA’s defense of Deshaun Watson will take aim at NFL’s treatment of multiple owners

Eventually and inevitably, the NFL will take action in the Deshaun Watson case. If that action includes an unpaid suspension imposed under the Personal Conduct Policy, the NFL Players Association will mobilize with an aggressive defense on Watson’s behalf.

Per a source with knowledge of the intended strategy, the NFLPA currently is bracing for a recommendation by the league of “unprecedented” punishment of Watson. Whatever the specific penalty, the union will mobilize to defend Watson, as it is required to do by the federal duty of fair representation.

The source explains that the NFLPA would defend Watson in part by making an aggressive argument premised on the consequences, or lack thereof, imposed on a trio of owners who recently have found themselves embroiled in off-field controversy. The argument will be that the punishment of Watson is not proportional to the punishment of those owners, especially in light of this key line from the Personal Conduct Policy: “Ownership and club or league management have traditionally been held to a higher standard and will be subject to more significant discipline when violations of the Personal Conduct Policy occur.”

According to the source, the union’s defense of Deshaun Watson will take specific aim at the league’s handling of Commanders owner Daniel Snyder, Patriots owner Robert Kraft, and Cowboys owner Jerry Jones.

As to Snyder, the union will argue that his punishment in light of the findings and potential recommendations of attorney Beth Wilkinson was weak and not fully enforced. As to Kraft, the union will argue that Kraft received no punishment despite allegedly receiving a massage became a sexual encounter. (Although Kraft was charged with solicitation, the case was dismissed based on the fact that the video surveillance utilized by law enforcement violated the rights of the various persons who were secretly recorded.) As to Jones, the union will argue that the league failed to investigate the voyeurism scandal involving former Cowboys P.R. chief Rich Dalrymple, including but not limited to the key questions of what Jones knew, when he knew it, and whether he knew that Dalrymple was secretly recording multiple cheerleaders while they changed their clothes.

The union believes that these arguments will be more likely to find traction than in the past, given the adoption in 2020 of a new, independent process for assessing potential Personal Conduct Policy violations committed by players. With Commissioner Roger Goodell or his designee no longer presiding over the effort to evaluate the evidence and reach a decision, the Disciplinary Officer ( retired federal judge Sue L. Robinson) could decide to allow the union to fully explore the manner in which the league handled Snyder, Kraft, and Jones.

The union, for example, could get access to evidence from Wilkinson’s investigation, the league’s handling of the information, and the key question of what Wilkinson would have recommended, if the league had bothered to ask her for a recommendation. (As previously reported, she would have recommended that Snyder be forced to sell.) The union also could get access to internal communications regarding whether Kraft should be disciplined, and whether Jones and the Cowboys should be investigated.

This approach would be separate from defending Watson against any claim of wrongdoing. It would be based on whether, even if he violated the policy with a habit of arranging private massages and trying to make those massages become sexual encounters, any punishment of Watson must be justified by the punishment imposed on Snyder, the non-punishment imposed on Kraft, and the lack of even an investigation of Jones.

Whether and to what extent this defense will hold any real water — and will gather any real evidence — will depend on Judge Robinson, who was jointly hired by the league and the union. But if the league means what it says when it says that owners are held to a higher standard and will be subject to more significant discipline for violations of the Personal Conduct Policy, the manner in which Snyder, Kraft, and Jones were handled by the league becomes directly relevant to the manner in which Watson is handled, too.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...im-at-nfls-treatment-of-multiple-owners/
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I don't see many females posting all day about the guy.

You must have different definition of "all day" than most of us do.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not if there are any females on the jury.

Not just them. Read the board. I don't see many females posting all day about the guy.

Absolutely he can. Most, if not all, of the people that would get called won't be Browns fans that are ingesting this story day in and day out.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:15 PM
Originally Posted by LexDawg
[quote=GMdawg]
Quote
How many women did he ejaculate on Pit? How many women did he expose himself to? Why would any woman in her right mind keep massaging him while he was exposing himself? Why would they keep massaging him while he played with himself? Why wouldn't they leave?

Some of the women have mentioned being a single parent and being afraid he would impact their livelihood because they did not do as he wanted. There is a term for it that escapes me right now, but it has to do with coercing someone into sex due to being in a position of power over them. This was one of my concerns as Watson maintains his innocence, he could possibly have no clue how his behaviors impacted these women.

And some of the stories include leaving at the moment the incidents happened. But sometimes things get ignored because people do not wish to see things as they are. It makes them feel better about their decisions.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:18 PM
Now all the union has to do is show when it comes to the owners that it was not consensual. That there were multiple cases over a long period of time. That's where they'll fall short. Does it make the incidents with the owners right? No, it doesn't. But trying to make a comparison isn't going to fly. I'm not sure what part of consensual people are missing.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by Dave
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Not if there are any females on the jury.

Not just them. Read the board. I don't see many females posting all day about the guy.

Other than Eve and Sk8termom, I'm not aware of any current female posters. (There may be some that I didn't know were females.) The board used to have a small but vocal group of females, but since Watson I haven't seen them. I'd be interested to hear from Jules, or especially Dawg Michelle, who I believe is a massage therapist. Others like Iambrown, Dawgylama, Nursedawg, Couchgirl, ONB, and a few more, all dropped out a while ago. I wish they were still here, I liked reading them.

I know. I have met every one of them several times....not sure of ONB...not even sure who you are mentioning...none of them have posted much in years. Jules several times a year she shows up a few times a year. I saw Michelle post maybe a year or two ago. The others, maybe not much since the board switched over.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
So the cop Baker said a woman just gave Watson a bj, because he was DW. She said he didn’t ask for it, didn’t ask for anything, he just took it. Very long read, but that is at the bottom.

https://sports.yahoo.com/tense-depo...cence-coercion-vs-consent-010619990.html

It's this exact reason why I have the remaining skepticism that I do related to the Watson saga. Presenting a much larger portion of the deposition of that investigator paints a MUCH different picture than what the earlier Buzbee leaks do.

If I'm convinced of anything, it's that Buzbee is a master in working the court of public opinion, and Hardin doesn't hold a candle to him there.


add: I just finished reading the part about the investigator's take on coercion and consent. I cannot wrap my brain around someone articulating that a women can't legally give Watson sexual consent because of who he is... and that person having such an influential position in the legal proceedings (both as an investigator and as an influential witness in pending civil cases). She said women can't give consent to someone who is famous and a big strong dude, and that during the investigation, the burden of proof is on Watson to prove his innocence.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 05:18 PM
Glad Watson's defense is implementing this as one of their strategies to their arsenal. The NFL has a long and poor history when they have played judge, jury, and sometimes executioner. This needs to be highlighted and used as a weapon by Watson's defense team. In fact, I have been calling for that in multiple threads. Although, I did leave out Jones and put some others in there. I would not limit it to just the owners, though. The NFL clearly screwed Ezekiel Elliot. The NFL's sorry history of how they treat the rich, white owners vs the black paid help is terrible and needs to be exposed.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 05:33 PM
consensual

relating to or involving consent or consensus.

"consensual sexual activity"
Posted By: Floquinho Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Glad Watson's defense is implementing this as one of their strategies to their arsenal. The NFL has a long and poor history when they have played judge, jury, and sometimes executioner. This needs to be highlighted and used as a weapon by Watson's defense team. In fact, I have been calling for that in multiple threads. Although, I did leave out Jones and put some others in there. I would not limit it to just the owners, though. The NFL clearly screwed Ezekiel Elliot. The NFL's sorry history of how they treat the rich, white owners vs the black paid help is terrible and needs to be exposed.


While agree with you about the overall perspective that rich people (read white NFL owners) is treated differently then people with less power and wealth I don’t think it’s purely based on what color you have on your skin. I can see Michael Jordan and several other rich and famous celebrities who’s not white having similar protection as Kraft and Jones. Money and having influential powerful friends is always a good insurance against stupid mistakes.

Having a half hearted union as NFLPA, Cleveland Browns and their supporters as your allies isn’t enough protection when Roger Goodell represent all owners and has to defend whatever decision he makes to the national media. Most members of the NFLPA is also in many way financially depending on these NFL owners so there is a limitation how much they are willing to fight. Remember that 26 female witnesses telling the same thing is a high mountain to climb even for a union.

Regarding Deshaun Watson I just hope he starts to understand what “consensual sexual activities” means. Just because he pays a women for a “service” doesn’t mean he can do whatever he want. This is what these civil law cases is all about and if he don’t have any intentions to make a economical settlement with all the plaintiffs then it will probably cost him (and the Browns) several years of wasted time.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 07:47 PM
Yeah watson is poor not rich. I mean if you consider a quarter of a billion dollars as being poor. I mean that makes you "the paid help" like maids from the late 1800's though, right? Standing up for women now seems to be a tool to use in claiming the NFL is anti black.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 08:03 PM
The tape was destroyed. How do you know what happened?

Part of the original charge was sex trafficking.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-disturbing-saga-of-robert-kraft
Posted By: Swish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 10:47 PM
just my opinion, but the NFLPA argument is sound when you think about how they're going about this.

the NFL isn't a government entity, so the union have huge credibility to bring up the lack of punishment against the owners as it relates to the players, which speaks toward the wild inconsistency in which they handle punishments within the league.

we have to remember that Zeke got 6 games, even though the NFL investigator lied and was fired, and other investigators didn't deem the accusations credible. so Zeke got 6 games for nothing.

so that isn't a defense of DW's behavior, but from the union's perspective, you have 2 grand juries who didn't even bother to indict, and a bunch of lawsuits that will lead to no criminal charges regardless of outcome. so if the owners won't be held responsible for reprehensible behavior, then the NFL has no business holding some imaginary standard on the players that are paid by said owners.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 10:55 PM
You are absolutely correct, but that won't stop it from happening. The NFLPA will put up a fight, and the league - Goodell - will have a prepared excuse as to why this is different.

It comes down to the fact that Goodell works for the league owners, so Goodell will do what the collective owners tell him to do, and they aren't going to eat their own unless they're ready to destroy their own or run them out. The players are the employees, and the ownership and employees always play to a different set of rules... and, literally, this is the difference here. The CBA. Under the CBA, the league can and should suspend and punish for personal conduct. There is no such agreement between the league and the owners, or none that I know of... thus, ANY action against the owners is PURELY discretionary.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 11:03 PM
Except that this is now in the court of public opinion.

In the end when it comes to the NFL that is what this is about - the NFL Brand.

Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/16/22 11:06 PM
Agreed, and I have been saying that for awhile. I have even taken it a step further. If the NFL wants to come down hard on Watson, his defense team should launch a full-go onslaught against them. I'm talking about another major lawsuit levied against the NFL and their inconsistent and unfair decisions in regards to players [especially black players] and the white owners. I'd be bringing in all the info from the Flores lawsuit, the Snyder case, the Zeke case, etc, etc.

While the NFL can render their own decisions right now as we have been reminded about many times, that doesn't mean it's right that they get to play judge and jury and unfair labor practices could be a real issue here.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 01:12 AM
Originally Posted by bonefish
Except that this is now in the court of public opinion.

In the end when it comes to the NFL that is what this is about - the NFL Brand.


This and a lot of the owners are pissed about the contract. I could see them handing down a brutal suspension just to teach Jimmy a lesson. Between this whole thing making the NFL look bad, Jimmy handing out that contract, and the fact that the Browns get treated like the league's unwanted relative at the cookout... It could be damn near anything coming. Fair or not. I expect paid leave until the cases are resolved. The NFLPA can argue that all day, but the league will site protecting the brand, and DW will be getting paid. The browns will get punished by that, so the owners will back it. It's all speculation until it happens, but they are under pressure to do something. Then when it's all resolved, the suspension will happen, and probably a fine. Also, because of the number of women, if DW starts losing these cases, I think they'll make an example out of him to silence the anti-women vibes of this case and the past cases that they were too light on. But he may not get anything at all... rolleyes
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 01:17 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by bonefish
Except that this is now in the court of public opinion.

In the end when it comes to the NFL that is what this is about - the NFL Brand.


This and a lot of the owners are pissed about the contract. I could see them handing down a brutal suspension just to teach Jimmy a lesson. Between this whole thing making the NFL look bad, Jimmy handing out that contract, and the fact that the Browns get treated like the league's unwanted relative at the cookout... It could be damn near anything coming. Fair or not. I expect paid leave until the cases are resolved. The NFLPA can argue that all day, but the league will site protecting the brand, and DW will be getting paid. The browns will get punished by that, so the owners will back it. It's all speculation until it happens, but they are under pressure to do something. Then when it's all resolved, the suspension will happen, and probably a fine. Also, because of the number of women, if DW starts losing these cases, I think they'll make an example out of him to silence the anti-women vibes of this case and the past cases that they were too light on. But he may not get anything at all... rolleyes

Agreed, as much as their is Watson backlash for the situation the Browns tossed fuel on the fire and will be paying for it too.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 02:36 PM
j/c:

Let's be real just for a minute. The owner who is really upset is Baltimore's owner because he was in the process of having to negotiate Lamar's new contract and now everyone who knows the situation is talking about how Baltimore is going to have to pay Lamar more than we did Watson or risk him sitting out. That is actually a good thing. Not a bad thing for the Browns.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 02:53 PM
Owners can be upset all they want but someone was going to get the first fully guaranteed contract sooner or later. I think it was inevitable. And it was inevitable to be a QB. Next will likely be some EDGE if I had to guess.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:00 PM
You and FrankZ could be 100% right about the owners, but all I know is the talking heads made a very big deal out of it like it was egg on the Brown's face. All I'm saying is be prepared for anything, we're the Browns.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
You and FrankZ could be 100% right about the owners, but all I know is the talking heads made a very big deal out of it like it was egg on the Brown's face. All I'm saying is be prepared for anything, we're the Browns.




Report: Browns Owners Unpopular at League Meetings MAR 29, 2022

Cleveland Browns owners Jimmy and Dee Haslam recently attended the NFL owner’s meetings last Sunday. The meetings actually interfered with their biggest acquisition, maybe ever. That exact transaction was a reason that other owners were not fond of the Cleveland owners at the meeting.

Peter King described Jimmy and Dee Haslam as “not the most popular people at the league meetings on Sunday” in King’s most recent Football Morning in America piece. King said he heard “lots of grumbling” from people around the league.

Browns gave Deshaun Watson a fully guaranteed contract over the length of five years. The contract was worth a total of $230 million dollars. With Cleveland signing Watson to such deal, other quarterbacks in the league will want something similar.

Essentially the deal reset the market in a way, with how deals actually work. Players will now want a fully guaranteed contract just like Watson got. It is going to the the new standard likely.

This means there will be less money going into the owners pockets. Owners can’t cut players and owe them no money anymore. Players will have contracts that are fully guaranteed across, when it gets to that point.

At the end of the day the Haslams were willing to risk that with the acquisition of Watson. The team believes this is the best path for them to get to where they want to go. Andrew Berry has said they believe you must have top-10 quarterback play. Cleveland believes they have that.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:34 PM
Yeah, but it's not just him; he's just the first big one coming up. Haslam reset the bar for ALL QB DEALS going forward with this.... and, like Frank pointed out, this will soon cascade to other premier position groups like Edge and Cornerback. It's the whole "the Genie is out of the bottle" aspect, not the myopic short-term view.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Owners can be upset all they want but someone was going to get the first fully guaranteed contract sooner or later. I think it was inevitable. And it was inevitable to be a QB. Next will likely be some EDGE if I had to guess.

I get what you are saying - and maybe you are right. Maybe this was inevitable.

But - just like the flack the Browns are facing over Watson ... it does no good to say "Someone was going to get him" - or "Someone was going to pay a guaranteed contract" .... In both cases it was the Browns. The Browns will bear the brunt of the scrutiny - not the other's that 'nearly' signed him, not the next team to offer a fully guaranteed contract .... those arguments to me seem more about deflection than dealing with what the Browns chose to do and the scrutiny they are now receiving.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:41 PM
And I firmly believe it was inevitable.

Owners can be mad, but someone was going to be the first. We'll see how bad it is for them the next time the CBA is renegotiated.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:43 PM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Yeah, but it's not just him; he's just the first big one coming up. Haslam reset the bar for ALL QB DEALS going forward with this.... and, like Frank pointed out, this will soon cascade to other premier position groups like Edge and Cornerback. It's the whole "the Genie is out of the bottle" aspect, not the myopic short-term view.

It's not Watson at all, it is purely on the shoulders of the Browns to be the ones to push this envelope.

The fact that they did it with a guy that had 22 unresolved lawsuits for SA and it's an unknown when he will see the game field is just the cherry on the turd sundae.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 04:53 PM
j/c:

Quote
There is a narrative going around that the other 31 NFL owners are mad at the Browns for giving Watson the contract they did, and in turn, that’s the reason a team hasn’t traded for Mayfield. According to Mary Kay Cabot of Cleveland.com, that narrative simply isn’t true and is “off base.”

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2022/05/08/deshaun-watson-contract/

Now, let's see who is really upset w/the Browns and why.

Quote
RAVENS OWNER BLASTS BROWNS FOR DESHAUN WATSON CONTRACT

by ANTHONY FARRIS
3 months ago
6Comments
Videos by OutKick
There’s no love lost between AFC North rivals Baltimore and Cleveland. And that feeling apparently extends beyond the field and up to the luxury suites. On Tuesday, Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti blasted divisional foe Cleveland for handing Deshaun Watson a “groundbreaking” contract.

Watson, of course, received the most fully guaranteed money in NFL history – $230 million – from the Browns in a trade.

“It’s like, ‘Damn, I wish they hadn’t guaranteed the whole contract.’ I don’t know that he should’ve been the first guy to get a fully guaranteed contract,” Bisciotti said Tuesday while speaking at the NFL’s annual league meetings.

Jeez, Steve. Don’t hold back, tell us how you really feel.


Bisciotti’s comments are likely tied to the fact that his franchise QB, Lamar Jackson, a former league MVP, is slated to play the 2022 season on an expiring contract. Baltimore would undoubtedly love to extend Jackson’s deal for the foreseeable future, but his price tag has now gone up since Cleveland decided to give Watson a vault full of money.


“To me, (Watson’s contract is) something that is groundbreaking, and it’ll make negotiations harder with others,” said Bisciotti, no doubt alluding to Jackson.

The Baltimore owner must not be paying very close attention to the NFL’s current financials. League contracts, especially for quarterbacks, have reached a “next man up” level. Any starting quarterback with a pulse and some promise, who’s nearing the end of his contract, generally scores the latest and greatest deal. Unfortunately for the Ravens, Jackson’s next in line.

“But (Watson’s deal) doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to play that game, you know? We shall see,” Bisciotti added.

Cleveland and Baltimore play one another twice a year, and based on all these contract talks, those games should be rich.

https://www.outkick.com/ravens-owner-blasts-browns-for-deshaun-watson-contract/

Folks can look at all of this how they want, but personally, I am happy that the Rats owner is mad and it's hurting his negotiations w/Lamar.

Btw----I have not personally seen quotes from other owners saying they are mad at the Browns and want to make things difficult for them. I may have missed it.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 05:17 PM
So are you suggesting the Ravens are the only team now or in the future that will have a QB or other Star on their team that will demand a fully guaranteed contract? And if so, then that's why the rest of the NFL doesn't care - it's only the Ravens? And that's a good thing?

You probably aren't saying that ... and because that's not what you are saying the idea the other teams int he NFL aren't pissed at the Haslam's doesn't seem to hold water. Any team with a franchise / difference maker is going to face this same issue at some point.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 05:27 PM
j/c:


Quote
NFL teams have no right to be mad at the Browns regarding Deshaun Watson's contract


Steven Kubitza

The Cleveland Browns made a controversial decision to not only trade for Deshaun Watson, but to also immediately sign him to a fully-guaranteed $230 million deal. It is no secret that the 22 pending civil lawsuits against him now hang over the franchise as well.

This stirred up plenty of controversy among fans over the decision to add someone like Watson, given the allegations against him. It also created controversy among NFL owners, but for very different reasons.








00:01
02:00
Baltimore Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti had a quote, shared by ESPN's Jamison Hensley, that summed up how the owners are feeling.

"I don't know that he should've been the first guy to get a fully guaranteed contract. To me, that's something that is groundbreaking, and it'll make negotiations harder with others."
Jamison Hensley
Jamison Hensley
@jamisonhensley

Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti on Deshaun Watson's $230 million guaranteed contract: "I don't know that he should've been the first guy to get a fully guaranteed contract. To me, that's something that is groundbreaking, and it'll make negotiations harder with others."
2001
182
Bisciotti is blatantly saying that this Watson deal is going to make negotiations harder with others. The quarterback was given a record amount of guaranteed money. This has changed the way top stars will view appropriate deals. But are the Browns in the wrong here?





NFL owners have no logical right to get mad at the Browns over Deshaun Watson

The NFL owners have always given off the sense of being a tight-knit group. Yet it's not like large contracts are rare. Just a few years ago, Patrick Mahomes was given a decade-long deal worth nearly half-a-billion dollars. Sure, it was not fully guaranteed, but it set a new standard.


Just recently, Aaron Rodgers got $150 million guaranteed from the Green Bay Packers and set the market at $50 million annually. Were other owners mad at these two teams?

The beauty of the NFL for the owners is the salary cap. So there eventually becomes a cap to how high they can go, at least, on a yearly basis. Yet as the cap rises, so do the salaries.





The cap also means each team can act however it wants. If the Browns want to fully guarantee a deal, they have the right to do that.


For example, let's say Lamar Jackson wants the exact same deal as Watson got in Cleveland but Baltimore will not give it to him. If another team will do such a thing, then that is just the nature of the business. The only way to stop this process is for every single owner to refuse to offer such a deal.



This is just the way professional sports work. If one team doesn't want to pay a star, there is usually another out there ready to do just that. The salary cap, at least, ensures a system where one team can't spend significantly more than others to buy up all the stars.

So even if the quarterback market rises, it is an even playing field for every single NFL owner out there. Blaming the Browns here is just recency bias after years and years of innovation when it comes to contracts.



https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/nfl...browns-regarding-deshaun-watson-contract
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 05:39 PM
j/c...

I'm not sure how big the impact of Haslam's deal will be, it's easy to see that it can't possibly be a positive though. Anyone else notice our only trades in the first five rounds were with Houston and Minny? Not a real indicator, but I bet there were a few teams simply not answering the phone, or answering to laugh in our face. Bottom line, all that cash has to go in an escrow account, and there a more than a few owners who are way too cash poor to even entertain the idea. That "un-levels" the playing field... and rich men don't like that.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
The tape was destroyed. How do you know what happened?

Part of the original charge was sex trafficking.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-disturbing-saga-of-robert-kraft

Let me ask you two questions. Now in the first place don't think what I'm asking you means that I think it's right. I don't. But the facts don't always line up with what's right.

Here is a fact people seem to be avoiding....

The NFL owners have no conduct policy nor are they under a contractual obligation to answer to a conduct policy. The players on the other do and are.

So the players union can say anything they like. They can claim, and it is a double standard. The problem comes when you get to the legal issue here.

They voted, signed and voluntarily agreed to a contract that holds them responsible for their conduct. It is a part of the collective agreement contract.

The owners did not.

So first are the players obligated to the standards they agreed to in their contracts? Are the owners to be held to a standard that they did not contractually agree to and sign? As much as it's a terrible fact, it is a fact none the less.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:09 PM
I saw some info and decided I wanted to verify by checking out the Draft Report on Watson.

Some of his Strengths:
Big, strong hands to pump fake and manipulate
Keeps ball tucked near his chest when scanning
Has traits to operate out of boot-action attack


Seriously though, here is the full version:
Overview
Teams will have to weigh the inconsistent field vision and decision-making against his size, athleticism, leadership and production. While not perfect, teams can add checks to both arm and accuracy boxes for Watson. However, discussions about whether or not his areas of improvement can be corrected will likely determine whether a team will view him as a high-upside prospect or a franchise quarterback. Watson's transition from Clemson's offense to a pro-style attack will obviously take time, but his combination of intangibles and athletic ability make him worth a first-round selection.

Strengths
Tremendous leader and winner
Good pocket posture with quiet upper body
Good pocket mobility and doesn't show much panic when pocket gets noisy
Sacked just 32 times over his last 1,181 drop-backs
Willing to stand in and deliver the ball against rib-wreckers on a clear path for him
Has history of clutch play in big games and big moments
Averaged 472 yards of total offense with eight total touchdowns and one interception in his two championship appearances against Alabama
Throws with anticipation and touch
Fires hips through throws for improved drive velocity into tight windows
Arm strength currently limited by mechanical issues that are correctable
Big, strong hands to pump fake and manipulate
Keeps ball tucked near his chest when scanning
Has compact, over-the-top release that uncorks a tight, pretty spiral
Throws with adequate accuracy on the move
Has traits to operate out of boot-action attack
Tremendous athlete who has ability to pick up chunks of yardage on ground
Has called running plays could ignite a stagnant offense
Has instant juice out of pocket to make defense pay if rush lanes are vacated
Does a good job of sliding or eluding square collisions in space as a runner
Dual-threat weapon near end zone who will create additional preparation time for coaching staffs looking to limit his effectiveness in the red area
Every meaningful passing stat improved in close-and-late situations in 2016.

Weaknesses
Frame is a little more slender than teams typically like
Accuracy runs hot and cold
Tends to over-stride on drive throws, causing release point to drop and balls to sail
Ball placement on crossing routes and slants needs to improve
Will leave throws behind intended targets
Deep-ball accuracy has been scatter-shot over his last two seasons at Clemson, with throws sailing well beyond his target
Design of offense limited his need to make full-field reads
Has to become adept at working through progressions and playing chess against safeties
Needs to let routes develop rather than rushing anticipatory throws
Too many interceptions due to lack of vision, placement or decision-making
Threw interception vs
Troy against bracketed coverage he didn't see
Baited into bad-decision interceptions twice by Florida State cornerbacks
Has issues improvising away from initial, pre-snap plan even when pathway to target becomes muddy
Shotgun quarterback who, like Jared Goff, could take time getting used to huddling, pace of play-calling and drop-backs from under center

Prospect Info
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:09 PM
https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...subject-to-nfls-personal-conduct-policy/


add: I should highlight that this article was from back when Kraft was in the news with the happy ending massages. IIRC, the latest CBA was signed after this. I'd be surprised if they struck something like this out of the latest agreement, but I supposed that's a possibility.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:11 PM

Good read, thanks alot!
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:15 PM
I edited that post to make sure you notice the date on that article.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 06:15 PM
Thanks for the info.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 08:44 PM


Per a source in Watson's defense team, the NFL will push for a full season suspension, with additional suspension possible pending any new information.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 09:32 PM
"Everyone"

Again none of it is good.

So, in the language Kraft or Jerry Jones is no different than DW.

"Personal Conduct Policy"
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 09:45 PM
JMO, but I fail to see the equivalence between what Robert Kraft did, and the charges alleged by Watson's 26 (and counting) accusers. The issue is consent.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 10:36 PM
When you have cases like this getting to the truth is difficult.

This is an article:

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-disturbing-saga-of-robert-kraft

I don't know what Kraft did? The tape was destroyed. However, sex trafficking is about as low as it can go.

It is slavery.

Proof. That went away.

There is no proof or evidence. There was proof in the Kraft case. Ridley got caught. There was proof.

Josh Gordon there was proof. He failed the drug test.

So without proof the NFL can suspend and deny DW his right to work. The NFL "personal conduct policy" applies to everyone employed in the NFL owners included.

Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 10:51 PM
The number of alleged defenses (26) by Watson bury the equivalence claim, IMO. The number of women raise the bar enough for me, vis a' vis proof.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 11:42 PM
Illegal sex trafficking is now considered "consent?" Are you freaking kidding me? Maybe you are simply just unaware of the circumstances and how horrific sex trafficking is, but my God............that is far, far worse than exposing your penis [if true.]
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 11:44 PM
Dave obviously didn't know about the trafficking, hell I thought it was just for being busted at a rub and tug. So just stop. You are being ridiculous.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 11:50 PM
Make me stop!
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/17/22 11:57 PM
Do any of you guys truly believe that Kraft only went there one time? Seriously? So each time he went, he was indeed supporting illegal sex trafficking. Let's not forget that illegal sex trafficking often includes minors. But, that's okay. The NFL and public opinion can overlook that because it is a rich, white owner. Pftttt......
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 12:00 AM
Thanks, OCD. I was not aware of any sex trafficking charges against Kraft. If human trafficking was involved, would that onus be on the consumer who had no knowledge of the circumstances of how the sex worker got there? Would it rise to the level of 26 separate charges by different women?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 12:08 AM
I said you might have been unaware. But now, you are trying to make excuses. Who the hell doesn't know what is going on in such places once they visited them? Please! Most of us don't go to those places for that very reason.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 12:18 AM
j/c:

Some info:


Quote
Hidden in Plain Sight



How Corporate Secrecy Facilitates
Human Trafficking in Illicit Massage Parlors�
2
Illicit Massage Parlors and Corporate Secrecy
What is unique about this form of trafficking is that massage parlor traffickers actually go through
the process of registering their businesses as if they were legitimate.
Conceivably then, it should be relatively simple to determine the basics about these businesses —
such as what products or services they provide and who ultimately controls and makes money from
the business. The actual or “beneficial” owner would then in most cases be the trafficker and could
be prosecuted as such.

In reality, the laws governing business registration are almost tailor-made for massage parlor
traffickers to hide behind. Neither states nor the federal government require people setting up
companies to include the name of the actual owner of the business in the registration paperwork.
What is actually required depends on the jurisdiction. Sometimes the owner’s name is left blank.
Sometimes it is filled in with the name of a registered agent or someone else paid to be the front
person or point of contact. Sometimes the business is registered under the name of an anonymous
shell company — another business that exists in name only but has no actual assets.3

All of this obfuscation is perfectly legal.
The figure of 9,000 illicit massage businesses operating across the country, first reported in Polaris’s
recently released report, “Human Trafficking in Illicit Massage Businesses,” was difficult to come
by because of these lax or nonexistent corporate transparency laws. It took extensive research,
including cross-referencing publicly available datasets with websites on which commercial sex
purchasers leave reviews of their sexual experiences at these illicit businesses, to arrive at this
minimum figure.

It is hard to escape the irony here: Someone looking to purchase commercial sex from an illicit
massage parlor can log in to any number of review boards and, sometimes for a small fee, get
graphic descriptions of individual women’s bodies and specific sexual experiences with those
women. Meanwhile, while the businesses themselves are easy to find, the privacy of the actual
owners of the businesses where these sexual acts take place is scrupulously protected by U.S. law.
Irony aside, the fact that the United States is among the easiest country in the world in which to
hide who actually owns and benefits from a business4 is part of the reason why massage parlor
trafficking is so difficult to prosecute criminally. There are legitimate reasons why some businesses
use anonymous shell companies and there is no reason why they cannot continue to do so. But if
we are to end human trafficking in massage parlors, we must begin by lifting the veil of secrecy that
protects the criminals who profit from it.


Who Actually Owns Massage Parlors

Polaris analysts used open-source data5
to examine over 9,000 illicit massage parlors and their
networks across the country to find ownership information.

• Of the more than 6,000 illicit massage businesses for which Polaris found business
records, only 28 percent of these illicit massage businesses have an actual person
listed on the business registration records at all.

• Only 21 percent of all the business records found for illicit massage parlors actually
specifically name the owner — although even in those cases, there is no way to know
for sure if that information is legitimate.

Why corporate transparency matters in massage parlor trafficking
Most illicit massage parlors are part of an organized crime network. Generally, these networks
include at least one other illicit massage parlor as well as non-massage venues such as nail salons,
restaurants, grocery stores, and cleaners.

Criminal networks are necessary in large part for laundering money from the illicit massage parlors.
These businesses generally operate out in the open, paying taxes and otherwise taking steps
to avoid drawing attention to the true nature of the operation. A hallmark of an illicit massage
business is that it advertises services at significantly lower rates than is the standard. For example,
an illicit massage parlor will charge $40 for a one hour massage in a jurisdiction where a therapeutic
massage performed by a licensed massage practitioner averages between $80 and $100 an hour.
Of course, the $40 advertised price is just a baseline price. The real price is negotiated and paid
based on the specific sexual act requested and performed.

A tax auditor would notice the discrepancy between what the business charges and the far higher
amount the business actually brings in. To avoid detection, the business owner spreads the
suspicious profits out to other businesses in the network.

If the businesses were all registered under the name of the person who actually owned them
— for example, “John Q. Smith,” the connections would be clear and the money laundering
operations obvious. Because many of the businesses are registered anonymously, as shell
companies (“Massage LLC” for example), or in the name of someone other than the actual owner,
these connections are often missed, along with the opportunity to prosecute and shut down these
human trafficking venues.

Historically, victims of massage parlor trafficking have been the main target of law enforcement
activity, while the owners of the businesses — the traffickers — fly under the radar. Typical law
enforcement activity around illicit massage parlors has involved raids in which officers sweep into
the facility and arrest everyone on the premises. These raids are highly unlikely to net the actual
owners of the businesses, as they are rarely on site or even necessarily involved in the day-to-day
operations of the massage venues. That is left to managers (often referred to as “mamasan”), and
sometimes a manager-in-training (someone who is still primarily selling sex, but who has begun
assisting management in controlling victims).

Raids focusing on employees are antithetical to efforts to shut down human trafficking. First of
all, vice raids don’t do much to slow profits from these businesses. If a single venue in a criminal
network is shut down, the trafficker is still pulling in profits from the other venues, and can simply
5 For a full list of open-source data used, please see methodologies section of full report at https://polarisproject.org/
massage-parlor-trafficking transfer the victims to another massage parlor. Rotating
victims between businesses in the network, or within other networks in sharing agreements, is routine in
massage parlor trafficking. This rotation process keeps the victims disoriented and makes them therefore easier
to control while also ensuring buyers at a particular location have a steady supply of new women to choose
from. On average, traffickers rotate victims between the businesses every 2-6 weeks.6
The frequent arrests of victims — not owners — strengthens the traffickers hold on the women,
demonstrating their power while underlining the vulnerability of the victims they control and rotate at
will. The traffickers routinely tell the women under their control that they have no options for seeking assistance
once they become involved in the massage parlor
world. They are told that police see them as prostitutes, not as victims, that they are considered trash, and that
no one will help them out of their situations. When the women are then swept up in police raids, the traffickers
are proven right.

To effectively and sustainably target massage parlor
trafficking, law enforcement must undertake organized
crime investigations, which focus on ownership by
looking into money laundering or tax evasion. This
would shut down entire networks, meaning that the
women could not simply be moved around until the
police interest had calmed down. Such prosecutions
would not only punish perpetrators, but also send a
strong signal that human trafficking in massage parlors
is no longer a low-risk, high-profit venture, as it is widely
seen today. Flipping the perception of the risk versus
the reward of human trafficking in these and other
venues is key to ending the proliferation of the crime.
Unfortunately, the ability of businesses to obscure
ownership and therefore network ties, makes it
incredibly time-consuming and resource-intensive,
and sometimes impossible, for law enforcement to
undertake such investigations.
6 Rotation can vary by geographic region. This figure is based on conversations between Polaris and partner city law
enforcement and prosecutors between January 2015 and April 2016. (See Methodology, p. 87 of this report).
San Francisco Spa
Obscures Ownership7
Shell companies are intended to make
it difficult to discover true business
ownership. One spa in San Francisco,
CA, provides a good example of
how confusing a purposely obscured
business organization can be. The
phone number and address for the
spa, listed on the massage parlor
review site RubMaps, also belong
to a business bearing an individual’s
name. That business is classified under
the Standard Industrial Classification:
Religious Organizations (pretty
unusual for a religious organization
to be linked to a spa!). And it isn’t the
only linked business. The spa’s phone
number is also connected to another
business in Los Angeles with a name
advertising sexual products (classified
under Miscellaneous Retail Stores), as
well as a residential address in LA.
While there is no listed point of
contact for the shell company, the
address and phone number are that of
the original advertised illicit massage
business. The business name is also
an alias for the name of the owner of
the illicit massage business listed on
RubMaps. Having a shell company
registered at the same address as an
illicit massage business facilitates the
movement of illicitly gained funds, and
allows the spa to keep its reported
annual income under a figure that
would raise red flags. Additionally, any
income the shell company earns that
exceeds the reported annual income
can be passed off as donations, and
because the spa is registered under
Religious Organizations, the business
owners can qualify for different tax
breaks that normal small businesses
do not receive.
7 Keyhan, Rochelle et al, “Trafficking
in Illicit Massage Businesses.” Polaris,
(January 17, 2018)
CASE STUDY�
5
Along with organized crime investigations and prosecutions, the most powerful tools for
shutting down massage parlor trafficking are strong state and local civil laws that regulate how
the businesses operate. For example, laws that require massage businesses to have front-door
entrances can deter customers, who are often accustomed to frequenting illicit massage parlors
with rear entrances, if they think they might be seen or noticed entering such an establishment by
others in their community.
Enacting and enforcing such laws is among the most effective ways to shut down massage parlor
trafficking and incorporation transparency is a necessary element. It is difficult to enforce civil code
if the enforcing agency cannot identify the person who is actually responsible for paying a fine, or
remediating a building issue.
Also worth nothing is that effective enforcement requires that businesses actually register that they
are, in fact, massage businesses. Today, massage parlors can — and do — register as nail salons,
modeling studios — whatever they want. This dishonest self-classification allows them to avoid
regulations that would make it difficult for them to conduct illicit business.
For example, in Houston, many illicit massage parlors registered as modeling studios until the city
rewrote its local ordinance to close this loophole.8
In particularly egregious cases, traffickers register
under unrelated industries such as religious organizations or educational institutions, making them
eligible for tax breaks.
Again, it is hard to enforce rules requiring honest and accuracy in business registration if there is not
a human being responsible for the business that anyone can find and hold accountable.
Unfortunately, even after a city or county closes the loopholes in its ordinance, traffickers have
options. They can — and do — simply move to the next town over, where the regulations are still lax.
Preventing regulation shopping will take a concerted, nationwide effort at the state and local level.
8 Massage Establishment Ordinance « Human Trafficking Houston. (n.d.). Retrieved November 12, 2017,
from http://humantraffickinghouston.org/toolkits/massage-establishment-ordinance-toolkit/
Code Enforcement and Human Trafficking in Massage Parlors �
6
Recommendations
Requiring transparency around business ownership for law enforcement purposes is key to ending
traffickers’ ability to hide their networks and cash flow.
Both state and federal laws should:
• Require businesses to register official operators and primary owners (aka as
the beneficial owner, partner, etc.), all of whom should be required to provide a valid
phone number and address and a unique identifying number from a non-expired U.S.
passport, a non-expired U.S. state identification card or driver’s license, or a nonexpired passport issued by a foreign government.
• Require that covered entities file annual reports of beneficial owners and
provide updates to the government within 60 days of any change in the name or other
information previously disclosed about a beneficial owner or in the list of people who
are beneficial owners.
• Provide state, local and federal law enforcement with direct access to this information
• Impose criminal and civil liability for failure to report beneficial ownership information.
• Hold the official operator listed on all registration records legally liable for
the business, unless it can be confirmed that the listed operator is a victim who was
compelled to list herself as an operator.
The U.S. Congress is currently considering several bipartisan pieces of legislation that meet these
standards.9
Pending proposals differ on how information on beneficial ownership would be collected and stored.
Options include having states collect the information or putting the responsibility on FinCen, the
Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, a bureau of the U.S. Department of the Treasury. There are
pros and cons to each approach. States already have forms for corporate registration so the transition
would be somewhat smoother. The FinCEN approach would house all the information in a single
place, which could potentially make it easier for law enforcement to access in a timely manner.
With comprehensive federal legislation setting the standards for incorporation by which federal laws
and tax liability are applied, state and local law enforcement investigating massage parlor trafficking
networks will have the ability to more easily follow the money and build strong organized crime
cases. And most importantly, traffickers will no longer have the strong incentive of a system that
allows them to obscure their illicit activities.


https://polarisproject.org/wp-conte...afficking-in-Illicit-Massage-Parlors.pdf

Sorry about the formatting, but I got tired of trying to make it presentable. Just click on the link for easier reading.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 12:52 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Dave obviously didn't know about the trafficking, hell I thought it was just for being busted at a rub and tug. So just stop. You are being ridiculous.


Kraft got busted going to a rub and tug.... I knew that. There was news about the sting operation being in place because of the illegal trafficking... I heard that. I didn't hear Kraft was being accused of more than using their services..

Funny, I'm no expert in any of this but I saw a poster spam the boards suggesting pro athletes are encouraged to pay for sex to protect themselves or something. What happens when they pay for sex and it turns out that person is trafficked? Yeah, that claim didn't seem to make a lot of sense before. Makes even less sense considering this angle.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:09 AM
Originally Posted by Dave
JMO, but I fail to see the equivalence between what Robert Kraft did, and the charges alleged by Watson's 26 (and counting) accusers. The issue is consent.
I agree with you, but the detective investigating Watson might not.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:19 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Make me stop!

Let's not go there because, well you know I will take it wherever you want to go, and then some. I meant, just stop bashing or deriding others for expressing their feelings or concerns. Hell, you complained that this talk belonged in tailgate, then come here to complain people are talking about it. Make up your damn mind already. As you said, it is what it is.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Dave
Thanks, OCD. I was not aware of any sex trafficking charges against Kraft. If human trafficking was involved, would that onus be on the consumer who had no knowledge of the circumstances of how the sex worker got there? Would it rise to the level of 26 separate charges by different women?

In my opinion, they are both bad, but if Kraft was clueless about the trafficking, the 26-66 or MORE (I'm hearing now) would be worse. If Kraft knew, they are both slimy as hell and have no business being in the positions to be role models for kids, or leaders of a professional sports franchise. Vers, that's my opinion. I hope you can find it in yourself to respect that. rolleyes
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I said you might have been unaware. But now, you are trying to make excuses. Who the hell doesn't know what is going on in such places once they visited them? Please! Most of us don't go to those places for that very reason.

I'm not making excuses, and I was not aware of the sex trafficking angle regarding Kraft. You believing that matters not at all to me.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:59 AM
Don't pay any attention to him, Dave. His opinions are as important as a pimple on your ass. He's just lashing out because he wants to bully you into thinking like him. Just tell him what he can do with that if he can get it past the stick.
Posted By: jfanent Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 02:28 AM
Is Lamar's mom still negotiating his contracts? Maybe the rats have some hope.
Posted By: FATE Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:36 AM
Originally Posted by jfanent
Is Lamar's mom still negotiating his contracts? Maybe the rats have some hope.

Can you imagine the phone call the day after Watson was signed?!
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 10:57 AM
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by FATE
Originally Posted by jfanent
Is Lamar's mom still negotiating his contracts? Maybe the rats have some hope.

Can you imagine the phone call the day after Watson was signed?!

Yeah, I was watching several shows on ESPN and the talk was all about how Lamar should say that the starting point begins w/the number of Watson's contract. I don't know if Lamar deserves more than Watson, but his MVP and no off-field issues were discussed. The bottom line is that these QB contracts continue to escalate and Baltimore's owner is butt hurt over Watson's contract. I'm glad.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 11:54 AM
Back to the unknown and speculation.

In the Kraft case we don't know. Evidence destroyed.

Here is the thing. He went there knowing what he wanted. What he wanted could be left to imagination.

However, inside the place you get clues about sex trafficking. Age of the women. How they were acting. The way they were dressed. Not speaking any english. If they were acting as prostitutes.

I do not see much difference in the allegations of DW. Both were seeking sex. "Consensual?"

In both cases criminal charges are not there. In both cases the NFL can apply their "Conduct Policy."

Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

Please provide ANY source for the claim Kraft was accused of sex trafficking. I googled and came up blank.

If you can't - I think you should STFU trying to invent a crime Kraft was never accused or charged with.

** To follow your lead and how YOU like to post - I should say: You need to stop lying about what Kraft was ever accused of.
Posted By: Dave Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:01 PM
Even if I concede that there is some equivalence in the offense - and I don't, due to allegations about coercion on Watson's part - the sheer number of alleged offenses (26) has to point towards Watson's being much worse.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:05 PM
I think the assault / coercion factor is huge. It means instead of creepy - there is a much more serious problem. Using a position of power to manipulate people is a big issue in the work place and all walks of life - it should be no different in a setting where someone is being paid to provide a massage.


I don't think the numbers factor into the comparison between what each did - who know how many times Kraft did or didn't go to that Spa or any other. But the goal was a consensual happy ending. Myself and others have commented that if DW had entered into a pre-determined, mutually consensual happy ending there would be zero problem. (66 is excessive, that number might mean something over 17 months - but not illegal)

There is zero evidence to even suggest Kraft had any knowledge of sex trafficking - that's just an agenda driven lie.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 01:14 PM
Like Watson, Kraft was not prosecuted in his case. Of course, folks are on record as saying that failure to be indicted on a crime is not an indication of innocence. I will leave this article and then stop because I already knew that 888 and a few others would turn this into another personality war. Not interested in participating, but I'll be damned if I won't point out hypocritical stances when I see them.



Quote
YOU WON’T BELIEVE WHAT HAPPENED”: THE WILD, DISTURBING SAGA OF ROBERT KRAFT’S VISIT TO A STRIP MALL SEX SPA

After the Patriots owner made two trips to Orchids of Asia Day Spa, where a half-hour “massage” costs $59, he was charged with soliciting a prostitute. What happened next was not what anyone expected.
BY MAY JEONG

OCTOBER 4, 2019
Robert Kraft waving at 2019 super bowl
ILLEGAL CONTACT
Robert Kraft at this year’s Super Bowl in Atlanta. “You won’t believe what happened,” he told a friend after getting a massage at a strip mall.PHOTOGRAPH BY DOUG MILLS/THE NEW YORK TIMES/REDUX.

I. THE RAID
On July 6, 2018, a health inspector named Karen Herzog visited a massage parlor in South Florida for a routine inspection. She noticed that the spa worker, a young Asian woman, was “dressed provocatively,” spoke “little English,” and appeared “nervous.” Herzog also noted suitcases, clothes, a fridge full of food, and condoms, all of which, according to the training she had received, could be signs of human trafficking. She reported her findings to the Martin County sheriff’s office.

Over the next eight months, Detective Mike Fenton launched an investigation into what he believed was a large-scale prostitution ring engaged in human trafficking. Because one of the massage parlors, Orchids of Asia Day Spa, fell on the other side of the county line, in Palm Beach County, Fenton’s office notified Detective Andrew Sharp of the Jupiter police, who began his own investigation in October 2018.


Orchids is located off U.S. 1, in a strip mall anchored by a Publix supermarket. Jupiter is a three-bar town that is home to what one local calls “old and quiet money.” Like most spas in the area, Orchids charged $59 for a half hour massage and $79 for a full hour. Like many spas in the United States, it’s staffed by women of Asian descent.

For seven days in early November 2018, Sharp and his team staked out the spa. Almost everyone they saw enter was a man. One day, a group of eight men who arrived in a golf cart made touchdown gestures before entering, their arms flung up to indicate that they were about to score. “At that point I understood this was not just a regular massage parlor but one that was an illicit massage business,” Sharp later testified.

Sharp asked Herzog if she could survey the parlor, and on November 14, she complied.

Herzog later testified that the spa workers appeared agitated by her visit and failed to make eye contact. “As the inspection progressed, I began to feel more and more uneasy,” she recalled. Herzog noted an “excessive amount of food in the refrigerator.” She also noted bedding, clothing, and a flatiron. Herzog’s report gave Sharp sufficient cause to search the spa’s trash, and on November 14 and 19, his team found semen among the refuse. Last January, he requested what is colloquially known as a sneak-and-peek search warrant.

The warrant is a holdover from 9/11. Issued under the Patriot Act, it was initially designed to temporarily expand surveillance and investigative powers of law enforcement agencies in domestic terrorism cases. Since then, however, both the act and the warrant have been routinely used in cases that stray far from their original intent.

Sharp received the warrant on January 15, and two days later his team returned to Orchids, where they evacuated the premises, telling workers that a bomb threat had been called in. While the women waited outside, officers placed hidden cameras in the ceilings of the massage rooms.

Over the next five days, Sharp and his team watched, via a live feed, as more than 20 men received manual sex, oral sex, and anal play. When the johns left the spa, an officer would follow them and initiate a traffic stop as a pretext for identifying the men.

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Among the patrons who turned up on the surveillance video at Orchids was Robert Kraft, the 78-year-old owner of the New England Patriots. Kraft, who visited the spa on the afternoon of January 19, spends part of the year in a double oceanfront apartment he owns on Breakers Row, among the most coveted addresses in Palm Beach. Earlier that day, according to a man I spoke with who asked to be identified only as Kraft’s “best guy friend,” Kraft had gone to the hotel spa for a massage. When he was unable to get an appointment, he conferred with his old friend Peter Bernon, the dairy and plastics tycoon who also lives in Palm Beach. Bernon offered to drive Kraft in his 2014 white Bentley to a place he knew in Jupiter, 20 miles up the Treasure Coast.

At Orchids, according to the Jupiter police, Kraft paid cash to the spa’s co-owner, Lei [censored], who goes by Lulu, and received a hand job from her and another worker, later identified as Shen Mingbi. After Kraft ejaculated, Mingbi wiped his penis with a white towel. Then she and Lulu helped him get dressed.

As Kraft left the spa in the white Bentley, Officer Scott Kimbark, nicknamed Bark, stopped the car for a minor traffic violation. Kraft asked the officer if he was a Miami Dolphins fan and showed him his Super Bowl ring, explaining that he was the owner of the Patriots. Kimbark, having accomplished his mission, let Kraft and Bernon go with a warning.

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Later that day, Kraft called his friend. “You won’t believe what happened to me,” his friend recalls him bragging. Kraft explained how he had gone for what he thought was a regular massage, but that the masseuse had given him a hand job instead.

The friend excoriated Kraft for getting a “rub and tug.” Kraft, seemingly hurt, insisted that it “wasn’t like that.” He said he had felt a real connection with Lulu and Mingbi.

Later that evening, Kraft received a call from Orchids, asking him to visit again. (At the time, Kraft’s number in Palm Beach was publicly listed.) Kraft, according to his friend, was thrilled. He did not seem to understand that the spa was merely soliciting repeat business.

The next day, Kraft returned to Orchids, this time with a driver in a 2015 blue Bentley. He arrived before 11 a.m., qualifying for the early bird special: $15 off. He received a hand job and a blow job from Lulu, and left after 14 minutes. That afternoon he flew to Kansas City, to watch his team play the Chiefs in the NFL playoffs. The Patriots won.

II. THE SEX RING
On February 19, after staging dramatic raids on nearly a dozen massage parlors in South Florida, Sheriff William Snyder held a press conference. Local officers, he announced, working alongside Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Department of Homeland Security, had busted a $20 million sex trafficking ring with tentacular reach to New York and China. Many of the women, he said, had been tricked into coming to the United States and had been working to pay off debts to traffickers before being rescued. “I don’t believe they were told they were going to work in massage parlors seven days a week, having unprotected sex with up to 1,000 men a year,” Snyder said.

Sex trafficking, under law, involves recruiting and transporting women by force or fraud, and coercing them to work as prostitutes. The traffickers, Snyder continued, had covered their tracks by moving the women every 10 to 20 days to different spas, where they were forced to sleep on massage tables and cook on hot plates. Some were unable to leave, the sheriff said, because the traffickers confiscated their money and passports.

Snyder announced that as many as 300 men who went to the spas for sex would be charged with soliciting prostitution. “Many of the men are married,” the sheriff said, adopting the moralizing tone common to faith-based groups that consider the sex industry an affront to Christian values. “Many of those men are in ongoing relationships.”

Three days later, on February 22, Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Aronberg announced that Kraft would be charged with two misdemeanor counts of soliciting prostitution. “Human trafficking is evil in our midst,” Aronberg told reporters. “Modern-day slavery” can “happen anywhere, including in the peaceful community of Jupiter, Florida.”

Owner and worker from Orchids of Asia Day Spa where Robert Kraft visited
STRIP-MALL SERVICE
After Florida police raided Orchids of Asia Day Spa (above), co-owner Hua Zhang (right) was charged with procuring prostitution. Zhang started as an esthetician in China (below). FROM TOP, BY BARRY CHIN/THE BOSTON GLOBE/GETTY IMAGES, FROM PBSO/MEGA, COURTESY OF ZHANG HUA.
III. THE ISLAND
When I arrived in Palm Beach last spring, the weather report was threatening rain. The sky hung low and the air was loamy. If you are the 1 percent, you can opt out of most things in this world, including the weather. Many of the island’s residents were packing up prior to hurricane season; covered trailers lined driveways, waiting to transport art back to Aspen or Connecticut or Long Island.

Hearings on the sex charges were ongoing; Kraft, who had pleaded not guilty, was vigorously fighting them in court. The question that the wealthy residents of Palm Beach were asking themselves was, plainly, why? Why would a man worth $6.6 billion risk getting a $59 hand job at a strip mall massage parlor?

Many year-round residents of Palm Beach attempted to distance themselves from the “nasty Krafty” scandal by dismissing the Patriots owner as nothing but a seasonal resident—one of the 20,000 or so who come to the island from Thanksgiving to Easter—and therefore not an actual member in good standing of the Palm Beach community. Others proffered the heat defense, typically reserved for explaining away acts of insanity, such as first-degree murder or third marriages. The reasoning is deterministic: the feeling that Florida itself—especially South Florida—propels men to strange deeds.

Florida has always played an outsize role in the national psyche, a shorthand for a specific aspect of the American dream. Florida is where you go when you don’t want to be found, or when you have something to hide, or to escape bad debt and scandal, as did Charles Ponzi, the original defrauder. Palm Beach is the place where William Kennedy Smith was acquitted, in 1991, of raping a woman he met at a bar alongside his uncle, Senator Ted Kennedy. Where financier Jeffrey Epstein was given a “sweetheart deal,” in 2008, for soliciting minors for prostitution. Where Bernie Madoff preyed on wealthy investors before pleading guilty, in 2009, to bilking his clients of nearly $65 billion.

South Florida as we know it began in 1886, when Standard Oil cofounder Henry Flagler started building railroads over recently drained swampland. It was Flagler who built the Breakers resort, to accommodate passengers on his railways, at a time when land was going for $1.25 per acre. (Now land goes by the square foot.) Flagler was also known for convincing the state legislature to allow him to divorce his second wife, whom he had committed to an insane asylum, so he could remarry.


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The island of Palm Beach, 16 miles long and less than a mile wide, remains among the most economically and socially segregated towns in America. Apart from the occasional titled European, many Palm Beach residents have been heirs to various fortunes: the Singer sewing machine, the Watson computer, Jell-O, Listerine. Ninety-seven percent of residents are white, and the median age is 67. Houses come with living rooms that can hold parties of 175, and two pools—one to catch the sun in the morning, the other to catch it in the late afternoon. Rembrandts hang in guest bathrooms.

Breakers Row—home to mostly Jewish residents, including Robert Kraft—is referred to by the island’s WASPs as the Gaza Strip. The clubs are so exclusive, local legend has it, that Burt Reynolds was once turned away at the door on account of his dark skin color. Even Joseph Kennedy Sr. was reportedly spurned on account of his Catholic faith. Besides, his money was deemed too new. “It’s new if it was made in the past century,” explained Debi Murray, chief curator of the Historical Society of Palm Beach County.

Some residents, when I asked them about Kraft, appeared puzzled that a man of such immense wealth would feel the need to leave his valeted residence for a massage, let alone sexual services. What horrified these residents most was that Kraft had gone “over the bridge.” Over the bridge is West Palm Beach, a service town on the mainland, where the support staffs live: maids, gardeners, doctors, judges—anyone who has to work for a living. It is where you go when you can’t send someone else, when you have to show up in person at the hospital, or the courthouse, or the charity photo opportunity. The Publix supermarket on Palm Beach island sells Marcona almonds; the Publix in West Palm Beach only stocks the standard California variety.

Men like Kraft, after all, can have the help come to them. J’Anine, who used to work on the island as a high-end escort, told me about the many famous johns she had worked for, a list that includes best-selling authors and rock stars and titans of industry. As a professional, J’Anine charged $1,000 an hour—about 13 times more than Orchids. But the high price did not always ensure discretion. There had been one incident, J’Anine shared, when she took too much cocaine on the job and ended up locking herself and her crack pipe in the bathroom. The client’s daughter, desperate to get rid of her, had called the police for help. Two officers managed to restrain J’Anine, but not before using a Taser and a choke hold.

Jeff Greene, a Palm Beach resident who ranks 232nd on the Forbes list of richest Americans, told me that he could not understand why any man would want to pay for sex, but that he did understand why Kraft had chosen to go across the bridge. Everyone in Palm Beach attends the same parties, Greene explained, and wakes up the next morning to read about the selfsame parties in the town newspaper, printed on glossy paper so as not to smudge the gloved hands of its readers. “Palm Beach is a small town,” Greene said. “I imagine if you want to do something you shouldn’t be doing, you go out of town.”


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Luxury items—champagne, caviar, truffles—have no inherent value. They are made desirable through scarcity. But for the tiny stratum of society for whom nothing is unattainable, the commonplace, paradoxically, can attain a luster of its own. If calling up an escort like J’Anine is akin to ordering Wagyu beef from room service, then visiting Orchids is like swinging by the McDonald’s drive-through.

Sometimes you just want a burger.

IV. THE MEN
Whenever I encountered men of Palm Beach in their natural habitat, in hotel lobbies, inlet tiki bars, and private clubs, they were exceedingly eager to share stories of their visits to spas like Orchids.

In midtown Manhattan, at a smoke-filled club frequented by seasonal residents like Rudy Giuliani, I fell into conversation about Kraft with a man at its mahogany bar. I explained that after many months of working on this story for VANITY FAIR, I still could not figure out why Kraft had acted with such abandon. The man, who identified himself as the son of a famous politician, explained that men go to massage parlors for many reasons. In fact, he told me, he was heading to one himself in a few days. If I liked, I would be welcome to accompany him as his guest. (The trip did not take place.)

At a bar in Jupiter, a Patriots fan named Billy told me that he is a regular at Orchids, and had visited the spa only two weeks before the raid. His father and uncle had served in World War II, he explained, at a time when the U.S. military tacitly endorsed prostitution as good for morale. Over the years, many soldiers returned from Japan and Korea and Vietnam with a highly sexualized view of the women they met.

“Marry an Asian woman,” Billy recalled being told. “You’ll be happy for the rest of your life. Asian women know how to take care of a man. You come home and she cooks dinner, takes your shoes off, never complains.”

Billy was 42 when he was first taken to a “jack shack” on his way to a Patriots game in New England. After moving to South Florida, friends he made at a local bar told him about Orchids.

“A lot of my friends think Asian women are very attractive,” Billy said. “That’s what I think myself. The girls are beautiful. They are thin, in shape. That’s why American guys like that.”

Indeed, on one of my first nights on the island, I was sitting at a hotel bar, working up the courage to crash a reception for alumni of the Harvard Business School, Kraft’s alma mater, that had already begun out on the deck. An older gentleman approached me and asked where the function was. I pointed to the deck. He told me he couldn’t hear what I was saying. I suggested he try the deck. He became upset and walked away.

Later, the man approached me again, this time to apologize for having behaved rudely. By way of explanation, he told me that he had thought I was a member of the hotel’s service staff. I introduced myself as a reporter in town on a story, and we began chatting about Kraft and Jupiter. Suddenly, he leaned toward me—this older man who only moments earlier had treated me with disdain—and began making sexually explicit comments. “I had all these fantasies about you,” he confessed.

On the island, there were only two preordained roles for a young woman of Asian descent. Being a reporter was not one of them.

V. THE MADAM
Lulu, the co-owner of Orchids who allegedly attended to Kraft, lives a world away from her clients. From Palm Beach, you drive through West Palm Beach, past the South Dixie Highway, past laundromats advertising weekday deals and pawn shops after your gold. If you hang a right and drive north until the turnpike narrows, past billboards advertising plastic surgery and personal injury lawyers, past state prisoners performing hot, humid labor, you enter Martin and Port St. Lucie and Indian River counties, where the rest of Florida lives.

There, upstream from the source, the story of Kraft and the massage parlor raids has grown muddied. Flora Vera and Sean Williams, who live next door to Lulu, told me they had heard the sex workers had been kept naked so they wouldn’t run away. Another neighbor chimed in, telling me it was all part of a complex global conspiracy involving President Trump, full of byzantine connections that I found impossible to follow.

Flora laughed. “Next thing you know, we are saying I saw a UFO,” she said.

“Well, I did see a UFO,” her husband said.

He told me that it had appeared above a Kmart parking lot at dusk, “hovering above the pines,” on his way to church. He had been 12 years old. Later, Flora told me that she has precognitive dreams.

Lulu, who had been arrested at home and released after posting a cash bail of $75,000, declined my request for an interview. She has pleaded not guilty to all charges, including soliciting others to commit prostitution. But her business partner, Hua Zhang, who owns the other half of Orchids, agreed to speak to me.


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Zhang was born into a “not rich but respected” family in Guangzhou, China, in 1960. After marrying and giving birth to a son, Zhang applied for a U.S. visa in 2001. Five years later, the visa came through. Zhang hesitated. She was making a good living in China as an esthetician. She knew every bend of every road in Guangzhou. The new country would be full of unfamiliar roads, and strangers who wouldn’t know how to pronounce her name.

But Zhang was a mother before she was anything else, and she decided to emigrate for her son. After the family moved to Los Angeles, Zhang learned there weren’t many opportunities for a middle-aged woman with no professional expertise. A friend Zhang made from her English as a second language class suggested she go to work at a massage school run by Jet Li’s personal masseuse.

ONE NEIGHBOR SAID THE RAIDS WERE PART OF A COMPLEX GLOBAL CONSPIRACY INVOLVING TRUMP, THE DETAILS OF WHICH WERE IMPOSSIBLE TO FOLLOW.

At the school, Zhang made another friend who later moved to Florida to work at a massage parlor there. The friend soon began calling Zhang, pleading with her to join her. Zhang was reluctant, but by that time her son was grown, and she and her husband were filing for divorce. Florida is the land of second acts, and in 2010, Zhang moved to Jupiter to begin her life anew as Mandy.

Mandy packed light; she knew every­thing would be provided. Businesses owned by Chinese Americans—laundro­mats, restaurants, massage parlors—frequently provide room, board, and transportation for newly arrived workers, who often lack the means and connections to buy or rent a place on their own.

After a few years of hard work, Mandy raised enough money to buy Orchids in 2013. She hired workers from Chinese immigrant communities across the country, placing ads in Chinese-language newspapers. Mandy also provided day care for children while their mothers were at work. By then, her son had moved to Florida, and word got out that a Chinese woman and her English-speaking son would take in your kids for a reasonable fee. Soon, Mandy was looking after as many as 11 children.

In 2017, Mandy signed over half of the spa to Lulu, one of her steadiest workers. She began devoting most of her time to her grandson, Michael—named after local resident Michael Jordan, who owns a 28,000-square-foot mansion on three acres in Jupiter.

On the morning of February 19, Mandy was making coffee at a condominium near the spa that she had rented to house her workers. Suddenly, there was banging at the door. Six police officers swarmed in, handcuffed Mandy, and booked her into the Palm Beach jail.

“At the time I thought: They must have made a mistake,” she says. “It’s so funny—they treat me as a treacherous criminal. I can’t believe what kind of system it is. Why do you make such a big move against a family woman?”

As the co-owner of Orchids, Mandy was charged with a second-degree misdemeanor for “maintaining a house of prostitution.” She was also charged with 26 counts of soliciting others to commit prostitution, as well as a second-degree felony for deriving support from prostitution, a crime punishable by up to 15 years in prison. She has pleaded not guilty to the charges. A police affidavit lists the “victim” of her crime as the state of Florida. “Because it’s our society as a whole that has been victimized by this prurient behavior,” explains Robert Norvell, a West Palm Beach attorney who represents one of the defendants in the case. “I [censored] you not.”


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After a few weeks, Mandy was released on bail. Unable to return to the condo, where two of her employees were being detained, she was placed under house arrest in a home that a cousin of hers had put on the market. The house, on a quiet street in a gated subdivision, had not been lived in for some time, and was infested with vermin. Mandy spent six weeks scrubbing its floors. Her ankle monitor prevented her from taking out the trash or picking the ripe mangoes in the backyard, so she stared at the falling fruit from the window.

VI. THE MOGUL
The men who were arrested for availing themselves of Mandy’s services faced no such restrictions. After his arrest, Kraft was free to live his best life. He reportedly donated $100,000 at a charity dinner at the Breakers in Palm Beach, attended the annual pre-Oscar brunch at the Beverly Hills home of Barry Diller and Diane von Furstenberg, and watched Rafael Nadal defeat Dominic Thiem in Paris to win the French Open.

Kraft was born in 1941, in the affluent Boston suburb of Brookline. In 1963, he married Myra Hiatt, an heiress to a paper box fortune whom he met at a Boston deli. They had four children. In 1994, he purchased the New England Patriots, growing the team into one of the most valuable franchises in the National Football League.

In 2010, Myra, referred to by some as the “smartest Kraft,” fell ill with ovarian cancer. During the NFL lockout in 2011, Kraft spent his days negotiating with union representatives, then came home each evening to rub Myra’s feet. She died later that year, and Kraft’s life became a boat you forgot to tie up.

The following year, at a party in Los Angeles at the home of New York Giants co-owner Steve Tisch, Kraft met Ricki Noel Lander, an aspiring actress 38 years his junior. The two began seeing each other: on, then off, then on again.

Kraft reveled in his newfound status as a single rich guy. Owning a winning football team in America gave him access to a world that money alone can’t buy. He was seen at the Met Gala and the Grammys and the VANITY FAIR Oscar party, and sometimes appeared at events alongside young women who remained uncredited in photos.

Kraft hadn’t gone to Orchids on that January day because the Florida heat had driven him mad, or because he was in search of anonymity, or because he had served his country in the Far East. Born the year of Pearl Harbor, he was 13 when the Vietnam War began. He went to Orchids, in his relatively new status as a single rich guy, to get a massage. And it was in his part as a single rich guy that he came to believe he had done nothing wrong. According to his best friend, he thought there had been something between him and Lulu. He thought she liked him. He thought that what had transpired between them had no business being discussed in a courtroom.

“If you are affluent, rules loosely apply to you,” says Norvell, the lawyer representing one of the defendants. “You wear it like a loose garment.”

As the owner of a six-time Super Bowl championship team, Kraft understood that sometimes the best defense is a good offense. To represent him in court, he hired William Burck, who withheld sensitive documents from Congress during Brett Kavanaugh’s confirmation hearing; Alex Spiro, who defended former Patriots tight end Aaron Hernandez after he was charged with murder; and Jack ­Goldberger, the Palm Beach attorney who helped broker a plea deal for Jeffrey Epstein.

Epstein himself, in his twisted worldview, saw Kraft as a kindred spirit. A few months after Kraft was charged, a Fox Business reporter asked Palm Beach’s most notorious sex offender if he knew that the girls he had lured to his mansion for massages and sex were underage. Epstein insisted that his own crimes weren’t “that much different than what happened to Bob Kraft. Only he went somewhere, and they came to me.”

Kraft’s legal team bombarded the court with motions, pushing to bar the public release of the surveillance video from Orchids as an invasion of their client’s privacy. “It’s basically pornography,” Burck told the court.


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On March 28, the state attorney’s office in Palm Beach offered Kraft a plea bargain. If he admitted his guilt, the charges would be dropped and his record expunged. Prosecutors extended the same offer to the other defendants in Palm Beach, a county that, despite being the home of Mar-a-Lago, votes blue. Next door, in the Trump-supporting Martin County, no plea deals were forthcoming.

Kraft rejected the plea deal.

America’s criminal justice system relies on defendants taking plea deals: More than 90 percent do so. The system was not built to indict rich men, and so it was not prepared for a rich man to reject an offer of leniency. The case would have gone away quickly had Kraft not decided to devote his tremendous resources to destroying the state’s case.

Palm beach resort and Kraft meeting with Trump
COUNTRY-CLUB LIFE
The Breakers (above), the Palm Beach resort where Kraft has an apartment. In 2017, Kraft joined President Trump and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe at Mar-a-Lago (below). TOP, THE PALM BEACH POST/ZUMAPRESS.COM; BOTTOM, BY AL DRAGO/THE NEW YORK TIMES/REDUX.
VII. THE RESCUE INDUSTRY
Florida, perhaps more than any other state, has been a leader of the Christian right’s campaign to “rescue” those they consider victims of a globally syndicated criminal human trafficking ring. The first comprehensive human trafficking act passed in 2000, but it wasn’t until three years later, when President George W. Bush pledged $50 million to support anti-trafficking organizations, that the campaign became a full-fledged industry.

Human trafficking is a serious problem: The Department of Health and Human Services calls it the world’s “fastest-growing criminal industry.” But some anti-trafficking groups, in search of funding, routinely overstate the scale of the commercial sex trade. They frequently claim that 300,000 minors are “at risk” for being sold into sexual slavery in America each year—a number that has been debunked by researchers as wildly overinflated. (The Washington Post dismisses it as a “nonsense statistic.”) In 2018, the FBI confirmed a total of 649 trafficking cases in America, adults included.

Even more alarming, the exaggerated numbers about sex trafficking have come to inform public policy. On May 3, driven in part by spurious statistics, the Florida legislature passed a sweeping new law to combat prostitution. The measure creates a statewide “anti-prostitution registry” that is intended to list men like Robert Kraft, should he be convicted, as a john. But critics worry that the registry, which is vaguely defined, will also wind up including sex workers like Lulu and Shen Mingbi. In doing so, the anti-prostitution law could effectively end up functioning as an anti-immigration law, targeting poor women of color, many of them from Asia.

Florida’s new sex registry is the latest in a long line of similar laws. One of America’s first laws against prostitution, in fact, was the 1870 Act to Prevent the Kidnapping and Importing of Mongolian, Chinese, and Japanese Females for Criminal or Demoralizing Purposes, intended to protect the public from “scandal and injury.” The law was a precursor to the Page Act of 1875, which aimed to “end the danger of cheap Chinese labor and immoral Chinese women,” which in turn was a precursor to the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882—the first law to bar all members of a specific ethnicity or nationality from immigrating.


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The raids on Orchids and other massage parlors in South Florida were conducted in the name of rescuing women from sex trafficking. But the only people put in jail were the women themselves. A few, like Lulu and Mandy, managed to post bail and were placed under house arrest. But others were transferred to the custody of ICE. Women who migrated to America in search of work—who chose the least bad option available to them—were being punished for what one of their lawyers calls “the crime of poverty.”

The New York Times and other news outlets, quoting investigators, initially presented the raids as a clear-cut case of sex trafficking. Women at the spas, the media reported, were working “14 hour days” and “sleeping on massage tables.” After “surrendering” their passports to spa owners, they were not allowed to leave the premises without an escort. The “wretched” women in “strip-mall brothels” were not sex workers, but rather “trafficking victims trapped among South Florida’s rich and famous.”

But as police subjected the women to hours-long interrogations, those claims began to unravel. The only woman alleged to have been locked up and forced to live on the premises was Yong [censored], who went by the spa name Nancy. In fact, like many other employees, Nancy had been hired from out of state, so her boss drove her back and forth from the job. When the owner fell ill, Nancy was asked if she wouldn’t mind sleeping at the spa.

The one woman whose passport had allegedly been taken away was Lixia Zhu, or Yoyo. During questioning, the police repeatedly grilled Yoyo, looking for evidence of human trafficking. Did anyone else set up her bank account for her? Did anyone else have access to her account? “Did you feel like you had a choice to come down and work, or did you feel like you were forced to?”

“No one forced me,” Yoyo insisted. It was the terrible winter of 2018 back in Pennsylvania, where she was living at the time, that inspired her to move to Florida.

The interrogator pressed harder. “Did you feel like you had to do this?”

Yoyo shook her head.

“Then why did you do it?”

The inquiry continued along these lines for several more hours. It was somehow easier for law enforcement officers in South Florida to believe that the women had been sold into sex slavery by a global crime syndicate than to acknowledge that immigrant women of precarious status, hemmed in by circumstance, might choose sex work.

In the end, Yoyo told police that her boyfriend had confiscated her passport, locked it in a safe, and threatened her with a gun. He was the one, she intimated, who had forced her into sexual slavery.

Later, during a hearing conducted after she had managed to retain a lawyer, Yoyo recanted the story about her boyfriend. She told the court that she had said what she felt the police wanted to hear, in the hopes of getting a lighter sentence.


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Within weeks of the raids, the state’s case had evaporated. There was no $20 million trafficking ring, no women tricked into sex slavery. The things the state had mistaken as markers for human trafficking—long working hours, shared eating and living arrangements, suspicion of outside authorities, ties to New York and China—were, in fact, common organizing principles of many Chinese immigrant communities. As an assistant state attorney in Palm Beach told the court on April 12: “There is no human trafficking that arises out of this investigation.”

VIII. THE MIX-UP
Democrats have tried, so far without success, to tie the Orchids scandal to Donald Trump. Kraft, after all, was a close friend of the president. He had attended Trump’s wedding to Melania in 2005, and gave $1 million to his inaugural fund. (Trump once reportedly tried to set up Ivanka with Tom Brady, hoping to make the Patriots quarterback his son-in-law.) Li “Cindy” Yang, the former owner of the Orchids spa, also donated to Trump’s campaign, and ran a consulting firm that promised Chinese business executives access to Trump and Mar-a-Lago.

On March 15, congressional Democrats on the intelligence and judiciary committees asked the FBI, the director of national intelligence, and the Secret Service to open an investigation into Yang and her alleged ties to Trump. I emailed Nancy Pelosi’s office to ask why she wanted Yang to be investigated by a top intelligence agency. The speaker’s press officer, Ashley Etienne, pointed me to news reports about Yang “bypassing security” at Mar-a-Lago. “This was before it broke that she’s a likely spy,” Etienne added.

Etienne appeared to have misidentified Yang. I asked her if she was referring to a separate probe involving a Chinese woman named Yujing Zhang, who had allegedly breached Mar-a-Lago security. “I am not sure what you mean,” Etienne wrote back, referring me to the FBI for “more details.”

I also emailed Senator Dianne Feinstein, who had signed the letter requesting an investigation. Her press person also responded by citing the case against Zhang.

“This is political prosecution with no evidence,” Cliff Yi, executive director of the National Committee of Asian American Republicans, told me. “It reminds us of our experience in China. It reminds us of how we were scared, how we were oppressed.”

On September 11, Zhang was convicted of trespassing and lying to federal agents. The FBI has also opened a public corruption investigation into Yang, focusing on whether she illegally funneled money from China into Trump’s reelection campaign. Federal prosecutors sent subpoenas to Mar-a-Lago, demanding that it turn over all records relating to Yang.

IX. THE DOUBLE STANDARD
Kraft, aided by the best defense team money can buy, seems likely to beat the charges against him. Last May, a judge threw out the video evidence that had been gathered at Orchids, ruling that the warrant had been “seriously flawed.” The judge also threw out evidence from Kraft’s traffic stop, calling it “the fruit of an unlawful search.” The state is appealing the ruling.

Even if he is found guilty, however, Kraft has little to fear in the way of punishment. In Florida, as in most other states, the purchasing of sex is a misdemeanor. The few first-time johns who wind up being convicted typically pay a fine and perform no more than 100 hours of community service. The selling of sex, however, is policed far more severely. Sex workers are more likely than johns to face repeated arrest, increasing the odds that they will be charged with a felony and sentenced to prison, and have fewer resources to defend themselves in court. And “madams” who profit from the prostitution of others—the charge leveled against Mandy and Lulu—can be convicted of money laundering if the proceeds are deposited in a bank, or used to pay rent, or buy milk.

While Kraft’s legal team fights to have the charges against him dismissed, one of the alleged sex workers arrested in the raids, Lei Chen, remains in ICE custody. Under civil forfeiture proceedings, the state seized her J.P. Morgan Chase account, which held $2,900. Until August 21, when she was transferred to another immigration facility, Chen was held at the detention center in West Palm Beach, a half mile from a strip club where Stormy Daniels performed, and across from the Trump International Golf Club.

Another alleged sex worker, Yaping Ren, was also held for five months, waiting to be handed over to ICE, before being released in July. Her status remains uncertain: Her attorney told me that he has been unable to determine whether she is going to be deported. The county has only two court-certified Mandarin interpreters, who charge $400 an hour—a prohibitively high fee for his clients.

Under Florida law, it would appear, happy endings are the exclusive property of men.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2019/10/the-disturbing-saga-of-robert-kraft
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 02:00 PM
I do want to clarify something because the goal posts have been moved. I do not pretend to know the guilt or innocence of either man. My opinion is that both men were willing to pay for happy endings. I do find it hard to believe that a man w/Kraft's experience would not know about illegal sex trafficking when he walks into a place more than once and Asian women are scantily clad and can't speak English.

My real point in all of this is how can the NFL say that what Watson did tarnishes the NFL brand while completely excusing what Kraft did? Neither man has been convicted of an illegal crime. I also wonder what Mike Florio had to say about Kraft when all that went down? Did he write daily articles calling for severe punishment? Did him working for NBC and appearing on Sunday Night Football have anything to do w/his silence? Something stinks here. So, I will say it again..........Watson's defense team should create a crap-storm should the NFL decide to come down hard on Watson.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 02:15 PM
No-where does the article indicate Kraft was ever considered to be accused of, tried for or guilty of sex trafficking. That's just a LIE by you to drive your agenda. Kraft was nearly charged with soliciting prostitution.

What Watson is accused of is Sexual Assault and using his power and influence to coerce others who were not consenting.

There is no comparison between the two cases.

If Kraft was guilty - as was likely - I believe he should have been prosecuted. But his offense and occurrence that we know about was once. Watson has 26 accusers and a minimum of 66 different 'therapists' over 17 months. Again - a totally false equivalence.

And you wonder why posters think you are shilling for Watson?

** Edit - following your second post - to highlight what you are willfully ignoring.

** Second Edit - I said before and I repeated above - if DW had gone to find and entered into a CONSENSUAL happy ending with a consenting willing provider - I would have no problems. THAT IS NOT WHAT HE IS ACCUSED
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

Hypocrisy? lmao, you don't know anything about me. You just run your mouth at anybody because you're a bully. You will never bully me because I see you, and you are insignificant in every way.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 03:00 PM
I thought that people were aware that women who are victims of the illegal sex trafficking trade are not consenting to sex.



Quote
Why was Robert Kraft only charged with solicitation of prostitution in a sex trafficking case?


The case of the Patriots' owner highlights how many people don't see the trafficking victims before their own eyes.


By Andrea Powell, founder and executive director, Karana Rising


Robert Kraft, owner of the New England Patriots, was charged this week with soliciting prostitution in a case that law enforcement referred to as a human trafficking investigation. The disconnect between a solicitation charge and his patronization of a massage parlor said to be engaging in the trafficking of women seems to have many people confused as to the difference between prostitution and sex trafficking. Did he buy sex from a sex worker? Or did he pay for sex from a sex trafficking victim?

Sadly, there's no way to know if Kraft and the other men charged with solicitation by law enforcement cared enough to ask; news reports indicate that, even if they did, many of the women did not did not speak English. But the distinction between sex work and sex trafficking, and relationship between the two, matters. And failing to appreciate as much often leads to victims being arrested, and the most dangerous traffickers walking free.

The shame associated with buying and selling sex coupled with the clandestine nature of sex trafficking makes questions about who buys sex, who sells it and whether there is (or can be) respect and autonomy in the transaction very hard to answer. But if we want to end sex trafficking, we must tackle them, and we must understand that sex trafficking, as opposed to sex work, is about serial rape for profit.




Robert Kraft's arrest is a chance for Roger Goodell to show the NFL is serious about its morality policies
To legally define an adult as a victim of sex trafficking, two primary elements must exist: First, there must be a trafficker (often referred to as a pimp) profiting off the sale of someone else for commercial sex. Second, there must be elements of force, fraud or coercion between the pimp and the person being sold for sex; these can be threats of beatings, threats against someone the victim loves, threats of deportation or other kinds of emotional manipulation. Traffickers are masters of deception who generally leave their victims too terrified to try to escape, even if someone on the outside might think the victim had a choice.

Child sex trafficking involves a trafficker, a sex buyer and a child under the age of 18; unlike with adult victims, law enforcement does not need to prove force, fraud or coercion because the power dynamic between adults and children is presumed under the law to replace that requirement. Buying sex from a child is always a crime but, in some states such as Maryland, children can still be arrested for prostitution and other commercial sexual activity even if they are simultaneously considered trafficked.

At Karana Rising, the survivor-led nonprofit I co-founded, the average age we see for those victimized by sex trafficking is 14-16 years, though many of those trafficked as minors are exploited until they 18 and beyond. Their underage exploitation often leaves them with no education, few job options and trauma; reaching the age of majority is no shield against being trafficked.



To end sex trafficking, stop arresting sex workers
And, due to the criminalization of sex work in most of the United States, many sex workers and sex trafficking victims — such as those to whom Kraft allegedly bought access — are simply arrested, which pushes them even further to the margins of society. The threat of arrest is often held over the heads of sex trafficking victims by their traffickers, and makes them less likely to trust the police. They thus often stay in “the life” for years, going from child victim to adult victim.

Kraft is alleged to have bought sex from illicit massage businesses where adult women from Asian countries were being trafficked. Inside these establishments, police have alleged that the women were often forced to engage in sexual acts with up to 8 to 15 men a day and were frequently moved from establishment to establishment while never being able to leave the premises on their own.

This set-up is common among the few larger trafficking rings, which often hold women captive and even tell them that they must pay back a debt of thousands of dollars before they will be “free.” But their traffickers, who may even charge them even for the lubricants or condoms used during their rapes (if they're allowed to use condoms at all), know that those debts will almost surely never be satisfied.




Coming out in a small conservative town made my father a trailblazer

Most buyers, meanwhile, do not see the full scope of the harm that they (and their demand) causes these victims. Many seek to find — or convince themselves they have found — the “pure” sex worker who has, in the buyer’s mind, simply “chosen” that profession as one of many options available to them.

Maybe they have, but it is likely they have not. For example, consenting adults engaging in commercial sexual activity with no elements of force, fraud or coercion do not exist in locked establishments where the women inside cannot leave of their own free will.

Yet, at the real core of trafficking is poverty, misogyny and racism. At Karana Rising, we know that most sex trafficking survivors first experienced homelessness, domestic violence and sexual abuse prior to being trafficked, or they were fleeing political or economic instability in their home country — often instability driven by massive destitution.


Cyntoia Brown's clemency must begin a #MeToo movement for unacknowledged sex trafficking survivors

For those sex trafficking survivors who do get out of their situations and find support services, they often struggle to find employment and stable housing because of a lack of family support, unjust arrests and stigma. Their previous trauma, exposure to the sex trade and economic instability lead them back into the world that they know, even if being there is not truly what they want in life, and often back into being trafficked.

Our society also demands a “perfect” victim when it comes to women we recognized as trafficked, even though many victims are not kidnapped or naïve foreign women or girls. Many of the trafficking victims with whom we work are desperately poor and marginalized women who were (and continue to be) boxed out of the opportunities that would enable them to thrive before, during and after they were forced, defrauded or coerced by a trafficker.

This brings us back to Kraft, the NFL and others in a position to effect change. Professional sports leagues, owners and players have the agency to educate their staff and players, adopt no-tolerance policies around sex work and sex trafficking and commit substantial resources to survivor services. Society has afforded them the privilege and power that victims of sex trafficking do not have; men like Robert Kraft have the resources and systemic advantage to make a difference in the lives of women that are too often exploited.

The question now is whether he will.

https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opini...-prostitution-sex-trafficking-ncna976361

Again, if neither man has been convicted of a crime..........how can the NFL ignore the bad look from one man who is an owner and severely punish a paid employee? One more thing. I have not once said that the two situations were "equivalent." I have, and will continue, to state that neither man has been convicted of a crime, but both men have participated in alleged activities that tarnish the reputation of the league. Double standards are far too common.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 03:36 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

So when you said some will overlook sex trafficking in a conversation about Kraft - that wasn't an implication that Kraft was somehow accused of sex trafficking.

Your lying and hypocrisy get worse by the day.

Posting articles doesn't substantiate your false equivalence of being charged with soliciting prostitution and being accused of sexual assault.

I wouldn't normally call it lying - but you spam the board and attack and call names any chance you get. So we'll stick with how you like to post: You are lying and continue to lie. It's nauseating.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

Kraft did not commit sex trafficking. Your con game won't work. The fact is you claimed that watson was encouraged to pay for sex to lessen the odds of getting in trouble. It has been proven that at least some of these girls worked for massage agencies who booked their appointments and sent them out. So if your going to throw out wild accusations of possible sex trafficking, it appears you forget to include that watson too may be just as guilty of what you are blaming Kraft of. Which is not actually sex trafficking.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:09 PM
It's the old #strawman deal. I bet even he taught his kids that two wrongs don't make a right. Now he's using the "Yeah but Robert did it" defense even though he knows Robert didn't do it.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:38 PM
Just like Watson I think we should err on the side of not determining guilt until the facts are there and courts have rendered decisions. That said Kraft might not have been involved in the trafficking of people directly, he may have known about it, which would make him culpable in it nonetheless. Comparably between what Watson is accused of and this sort of accusation against Kraft, to me, Watson would be, by far, the lesser of two evils.

Anyone engaging in human trafficking needs to be put into the ground.

I am not saying either of them did, or didn't do, what they are accused of, nor an I implying in any way that anyone "is lying" or anything else.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:46 PM
Let me get this straight.

You don't want to judge Watson who is accused by 26 women of sexual assault. Correct?

No one has accused Kraft of sexual trafficking. There is no evidence to suggest that action. There is no known affiliation or otherwise with the parlor he went to. But even given all this you are happy to write: "That said Kraft might not have been involved in the trafficking of people directly, he may have known about it, which would make him culpable in it nonetheless."

It seems you don't want to speculate on Watson but would be willing to speculate on Kraft even though Kraft apparently made two trips (reported that we know of) to the one location?

Everyone can and will agree Human Trafficking is heinous. But what is being promoted by a poster on this board, is that Kraft should be judged as a Sex Trafficker so that they can throw shade on anyone who wants to judge Watson in a harsh light. . . . That's absurd. There is substantial information to form an opinion on Watson - we have two visits to a Spa by Kraft and someone wants to create an equivalency to Watson.

That is not right no matter how you try to frame it.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
It seems you don't want to speculate on Watson but would be willing to speculate on Kraft even though Kraft apparently made two trips (reported that we know of) to the one location?

I apologize.

Next time, before I make a comment on anything, I will ensure to privately message you and ask you what you think I should say, which points I should cover, and what angle that coverage should be from, so you can have everything you think you need from me. I'd hate for you to miss out on my deep thoughts.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 05:58 PM
You can post whatever you like.

Re-read my post. No-where did I suggest you couldn't have those opinions. In fact some of the post was verifying I understood your perspective. If you think otherwise - quote where I said not to.

Don't become a mini-Vers. Hopefully you are better than that.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
You can post whatever you like.

Re-read my post. No-where did I suggest you couldn't have those opinions. In fact much of the post was verifying I understood your perspective. If you think otherwise - quote where I said not to.

Don't become a mini-Vers. Hopefully you are better than that.

Using another use as an insult?


"It seems you don't want to speculate"...

Not in that post, it was directed specifically at the disparity in accusations. Don't read more into than that.

I have commented on Watson's situation elsewhere.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Originally Posted by mgh888
You can post whatever you like.

Re-read my post. No-where did I suggest you couldn't have those opinions. In fact much of the post was verifying I understood your perspective. If you think otherwise - quote where I said not to.

Don't become a mini-Vers. Hopefully you are better than that.

Using another use as an insult?


"It seems you don't want to speculate"...

Not in that post, it was directed specifically at the disparity in accusations. Don't read more into than that.

I have commented on Watson's situation elsewhere.


To my knowledge - regarding Watson - you consider him innocent until proven guilty? If that's not correct then let me know.

I have no idea what "Using another use as insult" means.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:09 PM
I'm not sure if "not determining guilt until the facts are there and courts have rendered decisions" will work. Now if that's what you're suggesting strictly as it pertains to people, that's an opinion many share. As for myself I simply can't believe that all 26 of these women are liars and there is some conspiracy on the part of their lawyer. That doesn't by any means suggest I believe all of these women are telling the truth. Within any group of people you will find both good and bad. I just find it impossible to believe that all 26 are bad. I however do not fault anyone for believing otherwise. I can see why they might.

The problem I see with the powers that be "not determining guilt until the facts are there and courts have rendered decisions" is a matter of time. Watson has already gotten the complainants to agree to put these court cases off until the off season next year. Then the question becomes will all 24 be able to be scheduled, processed and decided in one off season? While I have no idea as to the answer myself, I would use the Amber Heard/Johnny Depp trial as an example. That trial alone took 6 weeks. Even if you cut the length of these trials in half, 26 cases at 3 weeks each would take 72 weeks to decide the 24 current cases pending.

That would certainly take two off seasons to go through the entire process at best. At that point the 2024 season would be upon us. So that's the situation the NFL is facing. I don't think they'll be waiting that long. In a perfect world your scenario sounds fine in principal. As it pertains to practicality I just don't think we can expect it to turn out that way.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:51 PM
That should have been :usin another user as an insult"
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:51 PM
Like a moth to a flame.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:52 PM
Sorry you got dragged into this Frank. However, I never once said that Kraft was guilty of illegal trafficking. 888 fabricated that and Pit was on board. I reported them to the refs and explained that I never once said that or tried to imply it. The posts still stand. That's the way it goes.

What I did say is that Kraft frequented a business that allegedly has participated in the drug trafficking trade. Scantily clad Asians who could not speak English might be an indicator to most of us that something is amiss. I posted articles that told the same story. There are many more of them. I think that using a place that shows signs of illegal sex trafficking is terrible. There would be no need to have sex slaves if there were not men who wanted to partake in such endeavors. Again, I did NOT say that he was part of the sex trafficking trade. That's ludicrous and I was hoping that some folks would point that out to 888 and Pit, but everyone but you just let it go.

Once again, I do not know if Kraft or Watson are guilty or innocent. I am not saying that the two cases are the same. I am simply saying that both have been accused of tarnishing the NFL's name. One has not been punished at all by the NFL. We'll see what happens to the other one. I will provide one opinion here........I do think that visiting a business w/suspected sex trafficking slaves is much more slimy. But again, I don't know if it is true or not.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
That should have been :usin another user as an insult"

Well you accused me of trying to prevent you from expressing an opinion. I did no such thing. That's something someone else dies a lot. I thought you were better. Sorry.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:55 PM
This is what you said. It absolutely implies Kraft was involved in sex trafficking. There is no other way to interpret this statement that you wrote. You continue to deny and lie.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 06:57 PM
How does one "report" someone to the ref's?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Sorry you got dragged into this Frank. However, I never once said that Kraft was guilty of illegal trafficking. 888 fabricated that and Pit was on board. I reported them to the refs and explained that I never once said that or tried to imply it. The posts still stand. That's the way it goes.

They must have comprehension skills. And Frank wasn't "dragged into it". He made a post with which I replied to in a civil manner. He came back with a single sentence snarky reply. But unlike you I don't care, didn't whine to the refs about nothing like you did and could care less if others agree with me. You're hilarious with your incessant whining. Don't forget to report that too.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Like a moth to a flame.

Thanks for the discussion.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:03 PM
Had I wanted to say that Kraft was in sex trafficking, I would have freaking said it! I am not shy about stating my opinions and some board bullies can't stop me from voicing my opinions!!! I explained that he frequented a place that was alleged of being involved in the illegal sex trade. Visiting such a place, if done knowingly, is sick. That is what I was implying and saying.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I am not shy about stating my opinions and some board bullies can't stop me from voicing my opinions!!!

Which literally nobody has done. I guess I'll have to report that lie to the refs. lmao
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:09 PM
Again, there was a reason I posted the articles I did. Read this part carefully:

Quote
For those sex trafficking survivors who do get out of their situations and find support services, they often struggle to find employment and stable housing because of a lack of family support, unjust arrests and stigma. Their previous trauma, exposure to the sex trade and economic instability lead them back into the world that they know, even if being there is not truly what they want in life, and often back into being trafficked.

Our society also demands a “perfect” victim when it comes to women we recognized as trafficked, even though many victims are not kidnapped or naïve foreign women or girls. Many of the trafficking victims with whom we work are desperately poor and marginalized women who were (and continue to be) boxed out of the opportunities that would enable them to thrive before, during and after they were forced, defrauded or coerced by a trafficker.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Well you accused me of trying to prevent you from expressing an opinion. I did no such thing. That's something someone else dies a lot. I thought you were better. Sorry.


Not prevent me from expressing an opinion, you indicated I had not covered topics in my post you thought I should.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by FrankZ
Like a moth to a flame.

Thanks for the discussion.

Dude, you beat the drum every chance you get, it is tiring and I was specifically trying to not have you beat it more.

But of course, any excuse to beat the drum is enough for you.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:13 PM
Little flag icon in the post header.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 07:21 PM
Whatever you say.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

You were trying construct and imply Kraft was involved with sex trafficking and that posters were overlooking that while trying to "crucify" Watson.

You can't lie your way around this.
Posted By: LexDawg Re: Deshaun Watson Legal Issues - 06/18/22 10:33 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not surprised that some will overlook sex trafficking in one case and crucify a man in another case. And OCD, get bent w/your hypocrisy.

You were trying construct and imply Kraft was involved with sex trafficking and that posters were overlooking that while trying to "crucify" Watson.

You can't lie your way around this.

Oh how you underestimate!
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