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I don't think you can assume poor defensive play.

The play of Wills has not stopped the Browns from running in either direction.

The teams that once looked to be bad match-ups are no longer looking that way.

See NE, Chargers, Bengals, Ravens. They are good teams but do not look invincible at all.

Teams are always viewed by the media and others by their starters. The season is an equalizer because backups become starters. If a team does not have good roster depth it will get exposed.

PFF is not the end all. Watch the breakdowns on some of the successful runs. Wills is doing his job.

Is he as good as Teller or Bitonio? No he is not. He gets beat sometimes. But he also wins sometimes.

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Originally Posted by steve0255
It should go without question that Brissett is playing lights out these last 2-games. I would think that it would be difficult to place any blame on Brissett at this point. I also believe that we should see a similar type of production next week. However, let's not forget that these first 4-games were the part of the schedule the Browns were supposed to exceed expectations. Facing Mayfield, Flacco, Trubisky, and Mariota the first 4-games is not the same as facing Herbert, Jones, Jackson and Burrow. At this stage of the game, our defense will not be competitive against those teams which will mean Brissett and the offense will have to open up to be competitive. The question has been and always will be can Brissett be efficient enough against the top tier teams. That day is approaching fast and at this point, I'm not sure yet. Defensively, it's looking like it'll be very ugly.

My biggest offensive concern and has been the poor play of Wills at LT. Through 3-games now, he's graded out offensively at 56.7 and allowed the only sack of Brissett this week on an isolation play where he got beat badly. Watts wasn't playing either so my concern for Brissett's safety is warranted as our level of competition that will step up dramatically after next week. His run blocking is even worse than his overall score being at 51.3 through 3-games. That tells me the Browns can't run left without help for Wells. If I can see it, so can these better teams coming up on the schedule. With Mack and Bosa coming up in 2-weeks, Brissett better order an extra set of chicken pads with Wills at LT.

Last year started the same. Strong O, weak D. As the season progressed, they flipped strengths. I would be a bit surprised to see this D play strong this week and moving forward. I think the willpower of the O woke them up in the second half. I also think letting them play man helped a lot. Unlike others, I don't think Woods is gone during the season, but I do think he's the glaring weak link in the coaching staff.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
I don't think you can assume poor defensive play.

The play of Wills has not stopped the Browns from running in either direction.

The teams that once looked to be bad match-ups are no longer looking that way.

See NE, Chargers, Bengals, Ravens. They are good teams but do not look invincible at all.

Teams are always viewed by the media and others by their starters. The season is an equalizer because backups become starters. If a team does not have good roster depth it will get exposed.

PFF is not the end all. Watch the breakdowns on some of the successful runs. Wills is doing his job.

Is he as good as Teller or Bitonio? No he is not. He gets beat sometimes. But he also wins sometimes.

I'm not assuming anything. What I am doing is evaluating what they are doing on the field. If you think the defense will get better, you're the one assuming. I'll take what they have done through 3-games and go with that until they prove different. Ward being highest paid but dead last in rating is not a good sign. Losing Walker is going to hurt. Having the lowest rated DT's in the entire NFL doesn't scream success either. As it's taken 2-3 games for the offense to look respectable, the other teams get that same waiver. Like I said, let's see what they do when the level of competition steps up.

Finally, if you think Wills is doing his job, you are watching him through rose-colored glasses. He's the weak link on the OL - and has been the weak link. It's like it's been said before in this forum, if you're going to rant and rave about the players with outstanding PFF Grades (and rightfully so), those players with equally poor grades are being evaluated just as fair. When the most important position on your OL (the LT protecting your QB's blind side) is performing at a level (53rd currently out of 66 OT's rated) you have a serious problem that is going to show issues that is going to hurt this team. Add to that fact that his 51.3 run blocking grade is nothing less than horrible and I totally disagree - he is not doing his job. Plus, he's in his option year determination. Would you really exercise his 5th year option for what he's been graded at LT since coming to the Browns?

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So a three game sample determines the year. I think not.

How about the last half of the Steeler game. You could use that. Since it is the most current. The reality is the same people on defense played well together last season.
The Browns finished fifth in the league in pass defense in 2021.

So there is that.

Since you love PFF as the football evaluation bible.

Try this. Watch the games really closely. Then take the PFF grading system and then apply with your grade. Instead of regurgitating stats.

Did I not say Wills was not Teller or Bitonio? Did I not say he gets beat at times?

Jacoby has had time for the most part to throw.

Maybe I am all wet. But it sure seems that everything you post comes from looking at the dark side.

Ward (an All Pro) is ranked "dead last." There is not a team in the NFL who would not want Ward. "Let's see what happens when the competition gets tough." Well we will wait and see.
"it's taken 2-3 games for the offense to look respectable." Like that is not expected with a backup quarterback and receivers he has not played with.

Njoku is a bust. He looked Ok against the Steelers. Wills is ranked 53 rd he plays the blind side. How many sacks have been given up? Four.

Lighten up Francis. Maybe we are better than you think. Or, continue as is and maybe we will fulfill your prophecy of doom and then you can say "see I told we suck."

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Quote
Kevin Stefanski says Jacoby Brissett's leadership has been a boon for Browns through three weeks


John Dillon
September 24, 2022 10:20 am ET

In recent years, the Cleveland Browns have sometimes seemed to be a rudderless ship. Whether because of coaching, leadership in the locker room, or discord in the front office, the team has struggled mightily to get themselves on any sustained course for success, and seasons have been wasted.

This 2022 campaign has a different feeling, though, and the Browns’ win over the Pittsburgh Steelers was an example of their seismic shift toward legitimate contention. Coming off a disappointing loss in Week 2, the team regrouped and put together a winning game plan to beat their divisional rivals handily in primetime.



Head coach Kevin Stefanski has certainly done his part to architect a new culture within the organization, but his comments to the media on Friday tell a story of an unlikely hero who has been integral to the team’s early success. He told reporters that his bridge quarterback, Jacoby Brissett, has been the steady hand at the helm of the Browns that they have needed, and that players and coaches alike are starting to take notice.

“I think you guys know Jacoby,” Stefanski explained, “Know how he operates, how he carries himself and those types of things. I think that does have an impact on your football team when your quarterback is like that. I would also tell you we have a bunch of leaders on this team. We met. We talked like we always do every single week. I think those guys understand the role they play with our team and setting the direction.”

Leadership was one of the deciding factors in Cleveland’s decision to cut Baker Mayfield loose earlier this year, and the team is clearly looking for their quarterback to have certain qualities moving forward. Brissett has been an unlikely hero for the team so far this season, and with his help, the Browns will continue to develop and reach their full potential by the time their permanent starting quarterback takes over later in the season.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/202...medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

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Expectations for Jacoby.
Anything more than I75 yards
A 75 passer rating
One touchdown,
and 20 positive yards running

Anything more than that, anything over that is Jacoby exceeding expectations on a given week.
I95 yards maybe.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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I am going to make a suggestion to you. Take it or leave it.

Jake Burns has a podcast weekly after the games on OBR. It would be worth your time to listen. He is a knowledgeable guy who provides valuable insight.

He incorporates PFF but he also explains things beyond that.

Things like the importance of having Njoku as a three down TE and what that means.

How teams defense Myles. Percentages used in different defensive coverages. Personnel groupings. Importance of certain plays.

Helpful to understand what are behind just numbers.

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Right now, he’s worth $230 mill. When Deshaun gets off his suspension, and JB keeps playing well in the interim, what would you do? Just throwing that out there.

Edit: Jacoby is easy to root for. His pocket presence, on-time delivery has surprised me. He’s tough, has a quick delivery, been mostly accurate. JB may falter and come back to earth, but he might not.

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You start DW.
That’s why he’s here and now you're confident Jacoby can run the offense if called upon if an injury occurs.

This is the same thing as when Lamar Jackson went down last year. If Tyler Huntley would’ve played well the rest of the season, you still start Lamar the following season. He’s your franchise guy.

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Originally Posted by lampdogg
Right now, he’s worth $230 mill. When Deshaun gets off his suspension, and JB keeps playing well in the interim, what would you do? Just throwing that out there.

Play Watson.

You don't go out and spend a quarter of a $billion, take PR hit after PT hit and then decide to play Brissett.


If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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I would hope that the performance of the team figures in the equation somewhere...

If Brissett is playing well and the Browns are in contention for a playoff spot, Stefanski would be foolish to pull Brissett in favor of DW, imo.

Team goals should take precedent over the owners personal goals, imo.




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This is the topic of the great "what if."

It was not long ago everyone felt Jacoby stunk. The season was over.

Jacoby is a backup. He is doing his job. He was brought here to do what he is doing. Berry, the coaching staff, and the players believe in Jacoby.

It is a great that he is improving and getting comfortable in the system.

However, when Watson returns. He is the starter. He is a better quarterback than Jacoby. He gives the team the best chance to win because he can do more things than Jacoby. The money was mentioned. It is in important but only for the reason that he is payed that amount because he has played at that level.

This will not be a controversy. Watson is the starter and Jacoby is the backup.

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Brissett has played awesome, but it’ll come back to earth a little bit … at least to his “norm” especially once teams have more tape of us.

I still think we’ll be something like 5-6 or 4-7 when Watson is back, but hopefully I’m wrong.

Atlanta is a tougher game than originally thought. That offense is good.

NE/LAC are not as tough as originally thought. Both have injury concerns right now.

Baltimore, Cincinnati, Buffalo, Miami, and Tampa will be big time uphill battles.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Every game is tough.

All those teams that before the season began that looked invincible. Don't look all that great now.

People looked at the schedule and freaked out before a game was played. Chargers, Bengals, Patriots, Bucs, Bills, Ravens.

Those are still tough games but not impossible. The Fins beat the Bills and the Ravens.

So going to Atlanta to play is no cupcake. They have offensive talent and are at home coming off a win.

I have never paid attention to the schedule because last teams are not this years teams. Backups become starters because of injury.

You can only play the schedule one game at a time.

Falcons next and we have to be ready to play them. They have a mobile quarterback and weapons on offense.

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I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!





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Also, looking at the lack of playing time that DW has over the last two seasons, missing 17 games two seasons ago and 11 starts this season...don't expect DW to play lights out, if he does get to play this season.

You don't sacrifice the effort and work of "the entire football team" just to get the high dollar guy some snaps.

Now, on the flip side, if Brissett doesn't continue to improve and deliver Ws...and the Browns are not in contention for a playoff spot...play DW.




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Originally Posted by mac
I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!


Your bias clouds your thinking. Playing Watson is putting the team first.

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in terms of Atlanta, their three weapons will rival any three weapons we’ll face: London, Patterson, and Pitts. I’m most worried about Pitts, especially if JOK isn’t healthy.

Their defense is not good, however. I’m expecting a higher scoring game than I’ve predicted the first 3 weeks.


"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by mac
I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!


Your bias clouds your thinking. Playing Watson is putting the team first.


Damn straight I'm bias, placing team goals over individual goals. If Brissett is playing well and the Browns are in contention for a playoff birth, putting the team goals ahead individual goals = a winning formula.





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I trust Stefanski.

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During this thread, there was a lot of talk about Baker and Jacoby. I had at least one poster call me a liar because I gave the opinion that Jacoby might take fewer needless sacks and throw fewer picks than Baker. I also gave the opinion that the team might benefit from a qb who is more steady and less divisive. Got a ton of nasty replies for giving my opinion. So, I'll be keeping track of how things proceed.

Through three games:

QBR: Jacoby at 62.6, which is 9th overall. Baker at 19.5, which is 32nd out of 32.

Sacks: JB @ 4. BM @ 9

Interceptions: Jacoby and Baker w/one each.

Rating: JB at 94.3, which is 11th. BM at 80.8, which is 25th.

TDs: JB w/4. BM w/3.

Comp. %: Jacoby @ 66.3, which is 10th overall. Baker @ 51.9, which is 31st.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by mac
I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!


Your bias clouds your thinking. Playing Watson is putting the team first.

What makes you think Watson is the same player he was 2 years ago? We dont know how he is going to play until he does.
Bird in the hand....



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Originally Posted by lampdogg
Right now, he’s worth $230 mill. When Deshaun gets off his suspension, and JB keeps playing well in the interim, what would you do? Just throwing that out there.

Edit: Jacoby is easy to root for. His pocket presence, on-time delivery has surprised me. He’s tough, has a quick delivery, been mostly accurate. JB may falter and come back to earth, but he might not.

The team will obviously play Watson as soon as he can go. But JB playing like this offers some degree of relief if Watson fails to be reinstated for whatever reason. None of us know if DW is going to meet the league's expectations in counseling or if he will do something stupid during the course of the year. I've thought all along that he has a sex addiction of some sort. It's the only thing I can think of that explains the number of women over 17 months IMO. And if JB is getting it done, has us on the doorstep of the playoffs, fans will lose their minds if Watson loses a game or two coming back.

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Originally Posted by BADdog
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by mac
I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!


Your bias clouds your thinking. Playing Watson is putting the team first.

What makes you think Watson is the same player he was 2 years ago? We dont know how he is going to play until he does.
Bird in the hand....

I did not say that. I'm saying I will trust the coaches to make the correct decision. JB is doing a very good job. He's playing better than I thought and I give him and Stefanski credit for that. However, Watson is a guy who can put the team on his back and elevate others. I'll trust the coaches on whatever decision they make when the time comes. I think they know more about each guy than any of us do.

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Honestly, and no offense. You are getting ahead of yourself.

Eight games need to be played. Your opinion could change after Sunday.

Team goals. The coaches will play the players that give "the team" the best chance to win.

Watson is the player who will give the team the best chance to win. Jacoby is not making $45m a year for reasons.

Watson is making that jack for reasons.

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Originally Posted by steve0255
Originally Posted by eotab
From what I read about JB and confirmed by the limited view from ONE PRESEASON Game point blank he just is not accurate. Even his completions are passes that the WRs have to make a play on them.

One thing about this claim on holding onto the ball and showing his average time from snap to release. You have to remember our passing game is predicated on play action pass. This was told to us from the beginning and it was exactly how our O operated. Go time the average Play action pass from snap to release. Especially when there is a boot leg involved. Put things in perspective thats all.

Our defense will define our outcome for this game and probably the season. We will have to tire out our opponents defense with first downs via runs or West Coast passing game.
jmho

Hopefully JB will be good at executing screens.

Accuracy is a huge issue and has been before the Browns even signed him. There's no question he has a strong arm but getting the pass to the receiver where it's catchable is an issue. I fully expect the Panthers will go all out to stop the run. Their game plan will surely be to make Brissett beat them through the air. Stopping the run will eliminate the play action and force Brissett into a standard passing game. Offensively, that will put the game on the shoulders of the WR's and TE's to not only get open but to make the difficult catch if Brissett's passes are inaccurate per his history. If Brissett becomes uncomfortable, sacks will come into play with his moments of indecision. If the mid-range passing becomes successful, Chubb and Hunt will become huge factors in the Browns success because the Panthers will have to adjust to play honest.

Brissett needs to be better than 60% completion rate with over 225 yds for the Browns to be successful today. Scoring less than 20 points today spells trouble for the Browns. Falling behind early spells even bigger problems. If Brissett can come out hot and force the Panthers to change their defense, then I like our chances. If he's inaccurate early, it will be a very long day. Of course, all this hinges on Stefanski adjusting his game plan if needed and I'm really not comfortable with him changing his stripes but I hope he proves me wrong.

Just for the record Steve I retracted my assessment of Jacoby 2 games ago on the What I saw thread. Jacoby is playing great and is surprising me with his accuracy ( still Off so YAC is limited) but good enough to get the job done and quite frankly has made me forget the lack of Watson on our team. The only thing I am upset about is the waste of 3 first round picks to build our team with talent for our Defense. You win championships with Defense and we cannot build them with 3rd rounder or later You might get an impact player in the 2nd round.

Watson is still a scumbag Even if he is getting away with it legally. He was wrong in what he did and has not shown any remorse.
jmho


Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Originally Posted by bonefish
Honestly, and no offense. You are getting ahead of yourself.

Eight games need to be played. Your opinion could change after Sunday.

Team goals. The coaches will play the players that give "the team" the best chance to win.

Watson is the player who will give the team the best chance to win. Jacoby is not making $45m a year for reasons.

Watson is making that jack for reasons.



B-fish...read what I said again...

Quote
"I'll say it again...if Brissett is playing well and the team is in contention for a playoff birth...TEAM GOALS COME FIRST..!"


bonefish, see that word..."IF"..? I thought it was obvious that I qualified my answer based on a couple of actions that had to occur.




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pulled it from the other games thread

Originally Posted by Milk Man

damn son


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I got the "if" it will not matter.

If we went 10-1 Jacoby will go to the bench.

No if's and's or but's.

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benched with a 10-1 record? NOPE. If he does that, he gets the year. Unless that record comes with QB struggles, that is.

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No sense in argument with a 2-1 record.

Because the future in untold.

When Watson returns. He will play. IMO.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
No sense in argument with a 2-1 record.

Because the future in untold.

When Watson returns. He will play. IMO.

I expect that too, but if JB has a 10-1 record heading into the playoffs, no way he gets benched. Now after that playoff spot is secured, I could see it if they think DW gives us the better chance. We have no idea how good or bad he will play, or if he even will. He has to get reinstated yet, and that all depends on him doing everything they ask of him while showing he actually gets it. If he's still refusing to personally accept any fault, he's not coming back IMHO.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
I got the "if" it will not matter.

If we went 10-1 Jacoby will go to the bench.

No if's and's or but's.

Not in a MILLION YEARS. Watson would be the official backup at that point.

8-3 or better would make this a very difficult decision, regardless of Brissett's numbers... and not just because of their talent and ability.


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Well I will put it this way.

I hope we have that problem and decision to make.

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Me too! That would be awesome!


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Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by bonefish
No sense in argument with a 2-1 record.

Because the future in untold.

When Watson returns. He will play. IMO.

I expect that too, but if JB has a 10-1 record heading into the playoffs, no way he gets benched. Now after that playoff spot is secured, I could see it if they think DW gives us the better chance. We have no idea how good or bad he will play, or if he even will. He has to get reinstated yet, and that all depends on him doing everything they ask of him while showing he actually gets it. If he's still refusing to personally accept any fault, he's not coming back IMHO.


Brissett would 100% get benched.
10-1 would all but guarantee us a playoff spot and give Watson the time to knock the rust off.
Watson's contract is 100% guaranteed
Brissett's contract is for 1 year.
Watson is a significant upgrade over Brissett


Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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There's a looooong way to go. All you can say is that Brissett has probably exceeded any expectations any of us could have. Long may it continue no matter what it means for week 12.


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Not to be negative, but I don't think we will be 10 and 1. We've had an easy schedule thus far. I read where we might only win 2 games all year. Or, three or four. Quite a few said 6. I am just enjoying how the team is playing [for the most part.] The offense is playing beyond expectations. I think guys like bone, Scott, and myself that our OL, RBs, and scheme could make us a solid team and our expectations were higher than most. Then again, I think we all thought the defense would be playing better. It's early, but overall, I'm very pleased w/the team.

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They will be looking to extend Bissett if he keeps this up, no doubt.

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In addition to all the numbers I compared between Jacoby and Baker, there is this from PFF.

Jacoby is ranked 3rd overall at 78.7

Baker is ranked 32nd out of 33 at 43.3

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DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Expectations for Jacoby

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