DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Better w/Brissett or Baker

As I don't talk much about Baker, Just football talk about any QB on A Sunday.

I mentioned he had batted balls a lot and he looked like he had an injury yesterday

Eve said he was in a boot ! Hope it's not serious.

Seeing that Matt Rhule got fired today, made me think about something Hue Jackson said.

Sorry to bring up that name friends ! This is not a dislike post of anyone. Just old thoughts.

Again not bashing, just figuring.

Here's a tid bit of Hue talking about Baker.

Hue Jackson believes the Cleveland Browns fired him as head coach due to the on-field struggles of Baker Mayfield.

Appearing on ESPN's First Take, Jackson discussed why he was let go from the team after they started 2-5-1 this season:

"I think when you stop and look at it, it's truly, really about Baker Mayfield. I think they want to do everything they can to put him in the situation ... I mean, you got the first pick in the draft—who I think is going to be a franchise quarterback; who's going to be a sensational player—and he's not playing as well. So again, here is the perfect storm to move forward and move on."
https://bleacherreport.com/articles...firing-truly-really-about-baker-mayfield



Under Freddie Kitchens

“We set the bar high for ourselves,’’ said Mayfield, who’s now made it clear in two straight interviews that the Browns didn’t have their offensive act together enough for OTAs. “Our expectations were extremely high, and we didn’t meet that so that’s the most disappointing thing. https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...t-its-many-more-things-than-freddie.html


Under Matt Rhule


The Carolina Panthers fired Matt Rhule just five games into his third season as the organization’s head coach. After another dismal start to the year, owner David Tepper had decided he’d seen enough, pulling the plug on the Rhule experiment. While it’s a decision that made sense, it’s also a very troubling sign for Baker Mayfield. Rhule’s firing is just the latest in the coaching carousel experienced by Mayfield throughout his first five seasons as a pro. In fact, as pointed out by Jake Trotter, Mayfield is in line to play for his sixth head coach in five years following the Panthers’ decision to fire Rhule.https://clutchpoints.com/panthers-news-unfortunate-baker-mayfield-trend-continues-amid-firing-of-matt-rhule/


Been reading lots of old and new articles involving baker and his past 5 coaches, Didn't even bother looking at Greg Williams.

There have been lots of bad QB's. I can't ever remember one who has played badly and yet the coach gets fired.

Baker has dealt with five fired coaches.

Has any other QB in the league dealt with this ?

This is not a support or bash Baker post, Baker had awful coaches in Cleveland and Rhule was on a very hot seat and the fire under it was growing.

Yet I feel if a QB is brought in to help a team win due to a bad situation already existing in an Organization, Isn't that QB expected to help the situation without the HC getting fired ?

Josh Rosen has been on five teams because he is a bad QB. Has any of the HC's he played for been fired due to his play ?

Honest question guys.

Please don't make this post about me trying to take a side on a QB, just after seeing Rhule fired, It just made me think a bit. nothing more

And Honestly I'm trying to just talk not intending on making fights among you guys.

looking for answers plain and simple

I meant to put this in the Matt Rhule got fired thread

Refs could you move this for me please


unless your okay with it here, although I'm not comparing the two QB's


Thank you

I don't know enough about Rhule to offer an opinion on him.

Hue and Haley had success w/other QBs before they coached Baker. That seems to be forgotten. In fact, Hue was looked upon as a QB guru.

Freddie did not have experience, but it was Baker who lobbied Dorsey to hire Freddie.

I thought Stefanski worked miracles w/Baker. He hid his weaknesses and worked towards his strengths. He never asked too much from Baker. It's weird that Baker's fan base blame Stefanski for Baker's issues. LOL.....the dude was the best thing Baker ever had. And now, Stefanski has Jacoby playing very well. Better than he ever played before.

There were always a multitude of excuses for Baker. Yet, the Browns didn't give him a new contract after his "good" year. They decided to upgrade. Was it really the fault of everyone else and were the Browns stupid? If so, why didn't even one other team go after Baker hard when he was made available? We had to pay Carolina to get him out of the building.

At some point, rational folks might look at the one person who is most responsible for Baker's issues. And that issue is one his manic fan base refuse to do. Instead, they insult anyone who doesn't agree w/them.

Do you know of any other QB who had five HC's ?

And as you and I talk about this subject

Please respect my feelings and not throw in stuff like your last sentence, I read and know about all of you who like to argue with each other

It's annoying, but I respect your beef with each other

I only posted because of the situation for Baker.

This week's PFF grades are out.

Jacoby is 7th overall w/an overall grade of 78.

Baker is 36th out of 36 graded QBs w/an overall grade of 51.

I think the stats that I posted earlier combined w/the PFF grades are important because the FO and HC took a lot of heat this off-season for how they handled the QB position. They have a top-tier qb in the wings in Watson. He is a difference maker who can elevate others and make great plays even when disaster strikes. I am NOT saying he won't make mistakes or fail at times, but he is in that rarified air that includes guys like Mahomes, Allen, Rodgers, Herbert, and Brady.

While we are waiting for Watson we have a qb who isn't a game changer and does not elevate others, but he is playing solid football and the drama in the locker room is gone. He's had some costly interceptions, but he has played well enough for us to be 5 and 0. I think most people can see it's the defense that has been the problem. Thus, I am here to say that decision makers for the Browns did a really great job of improving our QB room.

Football talk? BS. You keep doing you. The longer you continue to do it the more people see who you really are.

I do not believe there is much separation between Baker & JB.
I believe Baker is the only Browns QB to win a playoff game since Belichek was coach of the franchise. That matters to me.
Was Baker perfect? Hell no! was he good? when not injured, I would say yes. I think we can all agree Baker was injured last season.

The major issue is that AB traded 3 first rounders and guaranteed a huge contract for his replacement who is not eligible to play for 5 more weeks. AND HAS NOT PLAYED A MEANINGFUL SNAP IN ALMOST 2 YEARS.
It is not about Baker or Brissett. But, DW and the price that was paid to bring him here. PERIOD.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors. VERS can hate, others can stick up for, but it is insignificant.

Maybe just maybe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
Baker was a serviceable QB for the Browns. Brissett has shown he is a serviceable QB for the Browns.

What this fan base needs/ craves for is a superstar at the QB position. Maybe Watson is it, but it sure is frustrating having no clue at this point in the season after giving up all that draft equity and $ for other players.

Hindsight is 20/20 and in three years we will have a better understanding of what we actually got.
If DW can not get us to a Super Bowl, The trade was a falure.

KS was as bad as Baker last season in my opinion. KS left a lot of points on the board throughout the year that cost us games. He is still doing the same thing a year later. That is worse than the QB play of botH Baker and Brissett.

This was written for another thread that got locked while I was typing a response to Memphis.

I don't like the Watson hire. I think the impact on that trade on this years team was worthy of "football talk". I didn't like the title of that thread - I didn't agree with some of the vitriol expressed - but at the end of the day a lot of the discussion was team related. Like many threads that hang around for a long time, it went off the rails with some posters spamming arguments back and forth - but there for a long time there was a lot of issues that impacted the team being discussed. The post by Vers (this post) is not about the team - it's a way to hate on a player no longer on the team and to antagonize posters. I wrote a football take in response - the summary of which was JB is better than injured Baker - Injured Baker is better than 2022 Baker on the Panthers. JB is not batter than Rookie Baker or the last half of 2021 Baker. None of that matters because neither are the future of the franchise - that guy is Watson and by any metric he is in a different ball park to either JB or any version (good, bad or awful) of BM

DSW hasn’t participated in one single competitive game in nearly 2 seasons so right now we have absolutely no idea what to expect from him when he comes back. Until we hear from him again there’s question marks about his mental stability. His last public appearance left us with more questions then answers so I think it’s justified with some worries about what we can expect in his comeback to the public arena. His physical status should be easier to judge but until we see him play again we should be careful before we make bold claims about his ability.

The total cost including lost 1rd draft picks for getting rid of Baker and getting DSW and JB was astronomical. If that’s good business or not we can’t evaluate properly until we have finished a couple seasons above expectations. If we only end up with a few play off wins but no SB appearance then it’s debatable how much of a success this trade was. Not to mention of he goes out on strike or similar and want to be traded again.

Finally when saying our decision makers did a great job improving our QB room you deliberately exclude the circumstances what actually happened. If reports are correct Cleveland Browns was one of the teams that DSW first rejected. So in the the beginning we wasn’t even his first or second best choice. Hmm. Let that sink in before you go overboard with your praise. Secondly the first reaction from our owners and FO after they were rejected was to go back to Baker, but he rejected us. Thirdly the cost of getting rid of Baker, trade DSW and get JB wasn’t exactly cheap, many pundits label it as a economical fiasco. Then we have all the bad PR. The infamous press conference in the end of Mars. All the drama in the summer and finally Watson’s latest interview when he made himself, his team and the NFL look like dumbfounded idiots. Do you label that as a success also? Upgrading our QB room comes with a cost. If it’s worth it or not the future will tell.

Don’t get me wrong I’m not totally against everything. Unlike you I can move on and let go of former Browns players. Who after five games that has the better stats between two players from different teams and different circumstances doesn’t bother me and I don’t care about Bakers future as a member of the Panther. I wish him best but apart from that he’s history.

I think it’s good to have reasonable expectations when DSW comes back. I will not hold anything against him when he’s on the field but if he continues with his weird and uncomfortable interviews he deserves what he gets.

It's why the watson thread is in the Tailgate Lot where it belongs and not used to trash up Pure Football.

This is interesting. A couple of weeks ago, I made an observation that I wouldn't roll JB out to the left much because he struggles w/that. I also said he throws the ball much better to the right and over the middle than he does throwing to his left. Check out this chart and see his numbers compared to the league average. This is not a tell-all, but it's something to monitor.

3-2 after 5 games under Baker.
2-3 after 5 games under Brisset.

Both of them had the offense scoring well enough to beat a Week 5 Chargers team and both were let down by horrific defense repeatedly in the early going.

At the absolute worst, it's a push... and that is with Brisset playing worlds better than he ever has for anyone, anywhere, and Baker beginning the stretch of his worst play, ever.

Couldn't have said it better myself - great observation!

I truly think KS has to fight his own instincts to be more pass happy and creative. I think at heart he wants to open it up even more (and I bet we do with Watson, which was the allure to having him).

I think that Stefanski has done wonders w/Baker and Jacoby. He hides weaknesses and emphasizes their strengths. Of course, that only last so long in this league. Eventually, other teams figure things out and take away certain things. There is only so much you can do w/a limited qb.

Another thing to consider is something the announcer said on Sunday. The Browns face more 8-men boxes than any team in the NFL. That was true last year, too. We still rank 2nd or 3rd in rushing attempts, but it's hard running against those fronts. You gotta open things up some.

I don't expect a ton w/Watson this year. It's going to be tricky getting him ready while games are being played. However, I am super excited to see what this offense looks like next year when Stefanski finally has a superior qb to work with. Watson is good enough to bail Stefanski out even when makes a bad call.

I would say that the 5/3 stat is nothing to brag about.

Obviously the D is a major issue, but.........

Again as with last season. I do not believe KS is doing our QB any favors.
On key offensive plays especially late in the game, his personnel as well as the formation and play calls are questionable at best.

Seriously, Why are there more formations without either Chubb or Hunt in the game?
How bout put them both in the backfield and have an audible ready dependent upon the look.

We have seen more looks this year with both 24 & 27 in the backfields but nowhere near as many as there should be.

We disagree on Stefanski. I respect that you did not resort to insults or personal attacks. I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/my takes. Different opinions are a good thing.

That's it in a nut shell - as well as the fact one player isn't on the team anymore and neither are the future of the Browns QB position.

But you know - we need some drama and stats and tweets from random people ripping on BM - it's nearly recess and the kids want something to troll about - I mean talk about - in the schoolyard.

Indeed, it is the defense that is holding us back. JB has played well enough that inserting DW isn't going to improve us all that much....

Except maybe for those 4th quarter int's. When the game is on the line is where the problem seems to be. You know, crunch time. We heard a lot about that in the past. One has to question who it is that's making excuses now? As has been shown, the Browns D has given up a lot of points in the 4th quarter for years now. Nothing about that has really changed. And nothing seems to have changed about QB play in the 4th quarter either. Let the excuse train begin.....

Jacoby has been an upgrade to Baker no doubt. Just see what is happening in Carolina! Baker is not a great QB. He could be a good game manager if he would allow himself to be that. His problem is he sees himself as a gun slinger and he does not have the physical tools and mental capacity in football to be a gun slinger. He forces too many balls. His best stretch with the Browns he spread the ball around to 7-8 receivers with short to intermediate throws. Leaned on the run game and the offense looked much like it has this year. Then came him pushing the ball down field and the drive killing, scratch your head over thrown int's. I do not miss Baker and his antics at all. I have enjoyed Brissett leading the offense and look forward to what the offense will look like when a real franchise QB is under center.

This is clear to anyone that watches the games.

Baker has a higher ceiling than Jacoby. But he is way more inconsistent.

I agree w/that, Eve. Baker definitely has a better arm and can make more plus throws. Jacoby seems to process better and often puts the ball away from the defender while protecting the receiver from a big hit. I think he is more solid as a leader. I would say that overall he doesn't take as many needless sacks and protects the ball better, although he has thrown three late-game interceptions. The first one was understandable. This last one was inexcusable. Really, really bad decision. We could have still won the game had York made the kick, but that was a horrific interception. His face told the entire story. I like Jacoby and hope we keep him around to be Watson's back-up. He's a solid dude.

These are interesting to look at and show another look at the chart I posted earlier. Here are the Next Gen charts from the last 3 weeks.

Here is Baker's chart for comparison purposes.

Wow! That Pittsburgh game chart. We hated the left side of the field.

I wonder if that was Fitzpatrick’s coverage side of the field? I would expect he plays both sides, but honestly I wasn’t paying attention.

Mayfield at least he can beat the Jets.
Also Brissett will lead us to fewer wins then 2019.
Mayfield until Brissett puts 50 on Pittsburgh with Watt on the
Field.
Mayfield undefeated against Cincinnati.
Mayfield won 6 games with Freddie while Brissett will only win 5 games with the coach of the year.

This thread should not only be banned but sent to the nether regions of hell.

How dare you - what the heck would Vers have to post about then..................

I've said before that Jacoby is not as good throwing to his left. I noticed it a few weeks ago. It gets worse if he is rolling left. Fitz is a FS now, so it's not really one side or another unless they in an even coverage like Cover 2, 4, or 6. Even then, the safeties don't get too wide. I will say that Fitz did not have his usual impact us. We probably schemed to throw away from him????

While we are waiting, While y'all are waiting

This is what it boils down to ain't it.

The Team
and
The League

has had you waiting since I994

Waiting since I994,

waiting for what? a championship???? no Heck no, That ain't even in the @uestion, waiting for what then??

To Field a whole team.

since I994 to field a whole team of real parts 28 years analyze that.

Wake up, neither the League or the Team will ever allow you to see a winner in any of yours lifetimes

it is ...

I2-0 0-I2 same difference the Browns aren't doing anything this year or next year either.

" While we are waiting" so sad we/ya'll will be waiting till the end of civilization.

He still gets off on being the ultimate troll AND the refs let him/her do what it wants. Him/Her must have photos.

Are/were the Browns better OFF with Baker or McRapey as the Franchise guy? Better in wins only, maybe DW, but that is left to be seen. Baker is a much higher character guy, with no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

JB playing at this level would be preferred over DW by a large part of the fanbase. We all want to win, but only some so bad that they can justify signing a sexual predator to be the face of the franchise. JB seems like a true high-character guy IMO. Too bad We didn't know how well JB would play before we sold the farm for captain rapey.

Sometimes we goad others into doing these things OP.

Yea, i read you saying about rolling to his left. Yea, that was my thought process about Fitz (about one side or the other). I would expect we were scheming throwing away from him (I had that as one of my main points in the Steelers thread) but damn, that is blatant that we didn't throw to the left. Especially when looking at the other games throw charts.

Aside from football, the saddest part of this whole thing is for all he's done, nothing has happened to Watson. Yes, I know he lost some money and missed a few football games but is he really paying for what he did? In a few short weeks, Watson will put on that uniform and become the face of the franchise. The women will have to relive what he did to them for an eternity. Guys like Watson who go unpunished look at this a a free pass to continue their predatory activities and it'll only be a matter of time before he strays again, JMHO.

Good grief! Watson is living rent free in your mind.

Like Baker is in some other posters minds?