DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Worst trade ever...

This is the only portion of your post I take issue with. I've seen nothing to indicate this is the way any of this went down.

And welcome back tab. It's nice to see you posting again. Hope all is going better for you as of late.

I don't discount what you're saying but by that same token it was Dorsey who drafted Mayfield. So by your logic he wasn't s guy selected by this FO either. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this portion of your post.

I can certainly see some of Stefanski's weaknesses and it did seem to me the longer Baker was here the more Stefanski tended to move away from his strengths. But I also don't think Baker is or was a complete QB. I don't think you can be dependent on having your entire playbook comprised only based on what a QB does well without expecting him to evolve into a complete QB. And there is certainly some truth that a coach needs to be able to develop talent. There's also truth that you have to draft players with the ability to be developed. It's not an all or nothing proposition. I present to you Anthony Schwartz.

There was nothing about his college career that gave any cause to draft him where he was chosen other than straight line speed and his SPARQ score.

EO, I don't like him at all as a person, but I think DW could get us there. I don't particularly think he's any better than Baker. Hell, one week, Baker plays like he's on fire, and the next, like he's a third-string backup. DW will have his ups and downs too. I hope he at least returns to form enough to get something out of him if he doesn't work out for whatever reason. As far as the trade itself, I felt it was horrible, not blockbuster, not even close. Now had DW not had the off-field issues, I would still grade it as bad just because we gave up way too much for what appears to be the same player stats-wise. And I get that DW passed the eyeball test @ the Texans, but he hasn't here yet IMO. So I feel a little nervous, but I think the rust or whatever will clear itself up during the offseason.

So this is how I feel about the trade in particular:

1) We reached and overpaid for a similar but commonly agreed better player.
2) We took a dump on Baker; not cool.
3) We trashed Pittsburg for Big Ben, then signed a sexual predator of our own. Again, not cool.
4) Who knows what all those pics will end up costing us?
5) And finally, the part that really pissed me off is that they shoved a predator up our asses and just expected us to be cool with it.

TBH, I'm good watching but disliking our QB. But I think I'm going to need results next year, like playoffs at minimum, or I might hang it up with this team. And that sucks because players have never mattered that much to me in the sense of rather I love this team or not, but now they do. And weighing the fifty years I've been a die-hard fan against the DW trade, it sucks to be in this position. DW's rapeyness does not matter to some guys; they want to win at all costs, and I understand why. But for me, it's more complicated than just wanting the shiny new toy. But at least I got a taste of watching him now, know that I can without cringing relentlessly, and can look forward with the hope that he's everything they say he is going to be for us in the future.

DW is better.

I go for the "or is it?" portion of the question.

Only time will tell. At this point it has the potential to be a bad trade. It also has the chance to be a great trade.

As for Stefanski's ability to adjust, I think we are seeing the adjustment taking place now. Maybe part of the problem was some players inability or unwillingness to adjust?

I know this won't be popular, but maybe Chubb isn't the type of lead back that best suits the game we are going to play with Watson at QB. Chubb is a negative in the passing game, and even in the running game he isn't a one cut, hit the hole runner like Hunt, or even D Johnson. If we run more RPO's, I am not sure Chubb is our guy. He isn't going to be able to string out along the line looking for his hole.

I’ll reserve judgment until this time next year or so. The rust factor has to be accounted for (and in theory Stefanski needs to get used to DW as well).

I am a little concerned that I’ve read his style doesn’t necessarily mesh well with Chubb’s, so I’ll keep an eye out for that.

It was a great trade. Why?

In 2021 they felt this team was ready to compete yearly for AFC North and then Super Bowls. What happened they saw a QB that was limited and a team in their same state pass their team because of their QB.

Bringing in Deshuan Watson gives them a QB that was considered a top 5 NFL QB that will help the team to be able to compete yearly for AFC North and then Super Bowls. Baker's limitations would have prevented the Browns from that.

While Watson's contract looks and feels bad right now. In 2 more years, it will start to look like a bargain. Watch what happens when Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, and Justin Herbert's contract are up.

Good to see you posting Eo.

The final grade on this trade will be in 3-4 years time. I agree with you the final grade has nothing to do with who they replaced - look how badly Baker has played elsewhere, that's one part of it that indicates that ultimately moving on was the right call. The question is the cost and player they moved on to.... This year was just a turd flushed down the crapper. We had a brief moment early in the season of "Daaaamn, Brissett is better than any of us thought, maybe ..... maybe". Then we lost 3 winnable games for a variety of reasons and Stefanski/Woods were chief amongst them - after that the season was always done. Maybe/Probably one of the reason's we saw so many players commenting negatively in the locker room, the realization this season was a waste.

Watson is knocking off the rust and improving each game. He's not really done anything truly remarkable or elite yet - but I think most think that level of play is coming. I think next year will tell us most of what we need to know - but truly, just like a draft pick, we got to give it 3 years.

And if Stefanski wastes Watson's talent, if the $1/4 Billion is a bigger impact on the cap than some keep saying, if some of our favorite players (Chubb and Garrett) don't get resigned when their contracts are up - some of that should be a factor, but the real litmus test is how good Watson is. Elite QB's are hard to land in the NFL. 23 years since the return has proven that, looking around the NFL at other teams shows us that. Give it time and eventually we'll probably mostly all agree one way or another.

Welcome back Tabber.. No evidence that Baker wasn't never a Stefanski guy. The year before, when Baker wasn't injured, he lit up the league.. so IMHO, Baker could execute the offense that Stefanski brought to bare. NOBODY does well injured the way he was. Not a QB anyway.

Having said that, and knowing the partnership that Berry and Stefanski have formed, I have no doubt that Stefanski agreed that an Upgrade was in order..

What I will never care for is the baggage that comes with Watson being worth what they gave up.,,, 3 first rounders and $230 million seems a bit much for a guy with that baggage. I'll also say that the way they handled Baker was Trashy.

I find it funny that Baker is still being paid, at least partly by the Browns. (Panthers also)

I doubt that Stefanski started this. I bet it was backroom conversation between Berry and Houston that brought it to light,, I'll be real happy if we win big with Watson, but no way will I ever be happy with how this came down and what he costs..

Nice to see you posted EO. Sorry to hear you're not doing well but hang in there I'll keep you in my prayers. I don't really want to debate whether we should have signed DW or not I've already given my opinion on the subject. One thing I will say again about the 3 1st round draft picks. We don't draft well in the 1st round anyway. Since we came back in "99 the only guys I can think of that were worth that pick were Myles and Joe Thomas. Some others were OK but didn't live up to being taken in round 1. It doesn't mean we wouldn't have hit on those 3 we traded away but our track record is lousy no matter who was doing the drafting. JMO Oh and Alex Mack too.

It is impossible to refute your take their. It feels illogical to "expect" that different FO guys in Cleveland can repeat the same failures over a 30 year period...yet we continue to do so. I believe Clem is on to something about the water/air/building in Berea.

There are exceptions to a rule, and your original post attempts to list 5 times where defense won a super bowl, but in 2022 the league is not on super bowl 6, they are on like 50 something years. Offense wins championships.
and defense
but Investing > in offense.

The trade may have been a waste. The Defense has cost this team the last 3 years. The offense didn't need much of an upgrade. jmho

Prayers up EO .. merry christmas

It's too early to tell if it was a great trade, but the rest of this post is spot on, especially that last sentence. You could almost see the panic when Harbaugh and some others spoke out against this trade. When it comes time for tight pockets Mike Brown to pay up, history indicates he won't.

The issue of 3 first round picks will probably hurt us. There are people saying that it won't because we've picked so many busts with the first rounders, but in the last 5 years we've had 7 first rounders and 5 of them are currently starting for the Browns.....Garrett, Njoku, Ward, Newsome and Wills. The other 2 were Jabril Peppers and BM.

Funny, I thought the same thing at the time. But I actually think it helped them make the decision... chew Jackson up and spit him out. There will be no contract unless he takes them to the promised land within the first two franchise tags.

Agree with the 1st rounders -- and even Peppers would have meant much more to this defense than OBJ ever did on the other side of the ball.

We need to flip the script next season and become a destination for FAs looking for a ring. If not, we'll fall firmly into the "puncher's chance" category for the next few years.

You're probably right. They don't want to get Flacco'd a second time.

Put the trade for DW side by side with the Ernest Byner for Micheal Oliphant trade,

I still think Byner/Oliphant was worse,
also, I think if you look back from this far along, that what the Browns got, for what ended up being that WR who went to the Falcons and ended up having/forcing Tom Brady's Patriots to overcome such a deficit in the Super Bowl.

At least in those two Byner and the WR won 2 playoff games in their career, Watson hasn't won 2 playoff games yet.

The Browns trade up for Trent Richardson Rb, in the year RG3 was drafted and later Kurt Cousins, the fact that the Browns didn't make that trade up for a pick be a pick of Ryan Tannehill, @b of the Titans, Who was right there for the taking... also comes to mind.

I'd guess that one of the Haslams, demanded they move on from all >>>>all all of the players who liked to dance and showboat from the 2020 team.
hmm. J. Landry, and R. Higgins and B. Mayfield are no longer on the Browns, and OBJ. Who else?
...
I don't like analytics, and I don't think the personalities of those from Harvard, )many politicians)
and many NFL greats, Terry Bradshaw, Mike Ditka, John Madden, Mean Joe Greene, Randy Moss, Mike Golic, Michael strayhan, Ray Lewis
Rob Gronkowski Jon Gruden, others.. there is somewhat of different personality traits on display from most Harvard individuals
and most NFL all time greats
and enthusiasm and a certain willingness to throw caution to the wind, in spite of analytics doesn't lead to one indiv. having the ultimate success on both the NFL Field,
and Harvard, in fact, I think it's almost mutually exclusive.
But, if Bo Jackson could play football and baseball in the same day, then never say never.

But the NFL and Harvard haven't mixed since Nineteen sixty five. = I don't like analytics.

If you look back at what the Browns got in trade for the pick that ended up being Julio Jones I don't even remember it but
here is a part from
Wikipedia on Julio Jones, ... if he had done this for the Browns he would have rivaled Myles Garretts greatness over the last few years.

Quintorris Lopez "Julio" Jones Jr. (/ˈhuːlioʊ/; born February 8, 1989)[1] is an American football wide receiver for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers of the National Football League (NFL). He played college football at Alabama, and was drafted by the Atlanta Falcons in the first round (6th overall) of the 2011 NFL Draft. He is regarded as one of the best receivers of the 2010s.[2]

After a productive rookie season, Jones recorded 1,198 receiving yards and ten touchdowns in 2012 and was named to his first Pro Bowl. After an injury-plagued 2013 season where he only played five games, Jones led the Falcons in receiving yards in 2014, and made his second Pro Bowl, beginning to develop a deep chemistry with team quarterback Matt Ryan.[3][4] Jones broke out the next season, leading the league in receiving yards and co-leading in receptions, both of his statistics ranking top five all-time in a season. After this season, he was named to his first All-Pro selection. In 2016, Jones again had a productive year, garnering another All-Pro selection, and helped to lead the Falcons to Super Bowl LI. Over the next three seasons, Jones amassed 4,515 yards, the most by any player during that span, including leading the league again in yards in 2018.

With the Falcons, Jones amassed 12,896 receiving yards, most by a receiver since entering the league,[5] and more than any receiver in the 2010s, with 12,125 yards during that span.[6] In doing so, Jones was invited to seven Pro Bowls, including six consecutive from 2014 to 2019, was a first-team All-Pro selection twice and was named second-team All-Pro three times.

Jones has been noted for having a rare combination of size (6 ft 3 in and 220 lbs), speed (40-yard dash in 4.39 seconds), catching ability, strength, leaping ability, and body control, which has drawn frequent comparisons to Calvin Johnson.[7][8] On November 11, 2018, Jones became the fastest player in NFL history to reach 10,000 career receiving yards.[9] On September 15, 2019, Jones became the all-time career receiving yards leader for the Falcons.[10] On October 5, 2020, Jones became the all-time career receptions leader for the Falcons. His career average of 91.9 receiving yards per game is the highest in NFL history, and as of 2021 he is tied for third all-time in career games with 100-yards receiving with 59 career games. [11][12] In 2021 after another injury-plagued 2020 season, Jones was traded to the Titans after reported disgruntlement with Atlanta's new front office.[13] After being released by the Titans in 2022, Jones signed with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

I just disagree. The trade of Paul Warfield to the Miami Dolphins was the worst trade in franchise history. Hands down.

I remember reading that during the 2017 draft after we took Myles, and that was the right thing to do, Hue Jackson called DW and said we were going to take him at #12. I don't know what happened after that, I think we traded down to get more picks, but obviously we never drafted him. What a colossal mistake that was looking back.

It's good to see ya around these parts, again, Eo.

It's a very risky trade
The Browns gave up 3 1st RD picks in exchange for potential.
Has a NFL team ever gave up 3 1st RD picks for a QB who's
Career record is around .500?

I agree - it's why he has good success on the initial drive of a game, and doesn't have much success the rest of the game. I know I am speaking in generalities, but....

As of now, at least to me, it seems like Watson is a circle trying to be forced into square hole. We have no offensive identity. Hopefully that will change because we have invested the Franchise's future into this trade.

Then you are foolish. EVERY business uses analytics. Every sport uses analytics. Being from an Ivy League school is irrelevant. Your broad brushing is pointless. The problem is not analytics. That buzzword is grabbed by everyone who roots for a team that has problems as being the cause of the problems. My issues with the Watson deal are that too much was given up, the ownership and FO either didn’t have a clue what his punishment would be or worse, didn’t care and, finally, that his numbers with the exception of his last season were actually not phenomenal. They were very good but so were Baker’s 1st and 3rd years. I am not saying that Baker is as good as Deshaun. I am saying that there was an element of hype to Watson really keyed into his last year. I am also saying that the Browns have issues with coaching and talent evaluation. Analytics isn’t the problem because analytics is only one tool that organizations use.

That is a tie. I'd put Paul Brown trading Doug Atkins in the same boat.

It was a great trade! A quarterback who might turn out okay for three first-round picks we would’ve most definitely blown.

Atm I'd rather have Baker and the picks. We will know if it's a good trade next year.

Absolutely a great post eotab, I think I agree with everything said ... especially "3 years of First round picks...a death sentence to any team"

It was the WORST TRADE IN NFL HISTORY the day it was made.

Last place
Leshaun money grab.
The worst point he has played so bad he you could not trade him for a bucket
Of bolts.

Hey Vers, are all these guys "Baker Boys" too? Normally, anyone who disagrees with your constant hatred posts is a "Baker Boy."

If we traded Watson today... what would teams give for him?

I'd bet a 3rd round pick and he'd have to restructure his contract or we may have to eat 50% of the cap hit.

I really hope he gets back to DW of old asap.

LMAO..........you have to be kidding?