DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Worst trade ever...

Pit, I didn't make that statement to justify the trading of 3 1st round picks. I made it basically out of disgust about all our bad drafting. The way I look at it. the 1st in "22 was DW. The picks that we would have made in "23 and "24 in the 1st round would most likely, given our draft history since "99, turn out to be marginal players at best no matter who is making the picks. So why not take a shot at what everyone seems to agree is a top 5-10 QB. At least DW is established. WE just have to hope he gets back to his previous form or close to it.

It doesn't matter if I think you are wrong or not. You presented your case w/out all the usual insults and attacks that so many posts contain. You were not offensive and you articulated your points very well. It's okay if we disagree on the particulars. It was a good conversation.

I don’t like the framework around this trade but in fairness it’s almost impossible to properly judge the level of success/fiasco until his time with us are over.

The circumstances around this trade is complex and involve many factors that’s not football related. All the way from how Berry/Stefanski handled Baker, the drama before DSW decided to be a Brown, everything surrounding the allegations, the media coverage, the press conference in late Mars 2022 when Berry introduced him, his strange interviews and finally his suspension.

That’s a hell of a journey as a Browns supporter. Hope. Anger. Sadness. Disappointment. Happyness. Confusions. Debates. Anxiety. Moral dilemma’s. Frustration and hope again.

My heart and head has never been in sync when I debating the rights and wrongs. That’s frustrating on is own merits.

From many perspective it’s an awful trade when factoring salary, 1rd picks, my own soul-searching and moral feelings. On the other hand as a supporter, sports fanatic and a man old enough to be the young man’s father it’s thrilling and full of hopes.

It’s not an easy ride to be a Cleveland Browns supporter, but frankly I wouldn’t want to have it in any other way.

I understand where you are coming from - and the only way to know how the trade plays out is to wait and see what happens and how good Watson plays for the Browns over the next 4-5 years.

And while I also understand the baggage that came with DW - and he's been found guilty of being a sexual predator (exhibiting behavior of a sexual predator is the same as being one in my book) - the one comment you wrote that I don't agree with was how they 'handled' Baker. The NFL is a business - players get moved and cut all the time. Baker's immaturity caused him to react badly - that's on him. And if Berry or KS or anyone else told Baker "Your our guy" right up to the moment DW signed or was courted .... that's just how this business works. Finally - whether the Browns were right to move on from Baker has no bearing on whether the trade for Watson was right or wrong. Judge the Watson trade based on what we gave up for him and how good he plays for the Browns. If Watson balls out and we sart going to the playoffs consistently - it'll probably be a good trade. If he doesn't - or he quits on the team or gets another suspension for any other transgressions - it'll be a bad trade. If Watson is merely "good" and the Browns continue to be out of the playoff picture - some might try to make an argument that it was a good trade I don't know, but I expect more.

Deshaun Watson has not been found guilty of anything in a court of law. He has not even been to trial. I get that this will lead to yet another slew of posts from a certain group of posters, but our country's legal system has not not convicted Watson of any crime. Period.

No-one said he was found guilty in a court of law - where do you even come up with this crap?

Deshaun Watson was found guilty by the NFL and by the independent arbitrator, a former federal judge Sue Robinson. Before Sue Robinson heard the case - you were telling this board how impartial Sue Robinson was and what a fantastic track record she had - you preached that you and everybody else should accept her findings. To this point she is the only person to have heard "all" the evidence.

No, I disagree b\c we can take info from the very first play he plays.
It didn't take Baker 4 years when in his very first action for the Browns he led the team back from a deficit to beat the Jets coming into the game for Tyrod Taylor.

It hit me,,, 3 min ago, ... so far D. Watson is a lot like the Trent Richardson ac@uisition was going to change the Browns fortunes in the running game, just ya know, back then, don't judge him for the then next 4+ years.

No, I disagree, got to stop and examine right there,
marginal at best. ?

Look at the Jets before and after Sauce Gardner ?? Big , WhOA big difference in the entire fortune of the team, and that is one pick.

And, not only.. are you not getting a pick but the other thirty one teams will still get their allotted yearly improvements

.. Like it or not, David Njoku, was a top 28 pick, the top 28, ))old time first rounders) or actually about top 23, top I8 to 23, Njoku was seventeenth in draft pick se@uence iirc.
.. Like it or not and popular or not, the Browns fortunes in team success hinged on David Njoku making plays, whether folks want to admit it or not,
even in 2020. ... and another thing,

CAN WE JUST gloss over that Berry and Haslam and whomever got rid of Rashard Higgins
... .... ARRGH , after years and years when you FINALLY FIND A Rashard Higgins YOU KEEP HIM,
This franhise:
is like a loved one:
that keeps relapsing:
into the same wrong decision.

Will they learn?
... ... arrgh, don't remind me , Njoku? they passed on TJ watt,
.. OH, doh, we had Myles, can't possibly take the best player if you already have one at the position.

You passed on TJ Watt, that is numbskull insult worthy.

Throw I see your point and it's relevant. However, when since we've come back in "99 have we made one pick that's had such a positive effect on our team? Maybe Joe Thomas? We haven't drafted a guy like Sauce Gardner that has influenced our team like he has and how many drafts have we had 2 picks in the 1st round 3? and we still didn't hit on any of them. Ward is good but he only plays half the year and when he does there are times, he plays like a 4th rounder. Look, I respect your opinion as I do others on this board and I'm happy to post back and forth with you on the subject matter but if anyone else feels I'm wrong about this please let me know. There are many examples on OTHER teams drafting one guy and him making a big difference in their fortunes but I haven't seen that here at least since "99. There were years I could have put all the names of the 1st round talent in a hat pulled out a name and had a better pick than the one we chose. It's pathetic!!!

I don't agree, which is fine - my points would be: Baker's success wasn't consistent and pro-longed. It was patchy and intermittent and while his final season he played hurt for 15 games and people can debate the impact you can't debate how bad he looked in CLT. Suggesting you can pass a final grade on Watson after 1/3 of one season, after a 2 year absence, doesn't seem realistic me - let judging him on even less time/games.

And there in lies the 3 1st round picks, 230 million dollar guarantee gamble. I understand that you point out the gamble in making the 3 first round picks. But at the same time you pointed out how that gamble works in both directions.

Exactly, it is a gamble. Like putting up your house because you think you have a great hand. If you lose it will set you back for a long time!!

On one hand you would have three shots at finding a superstar player. On the other hand you only have one.

I think a lot will depend on if Stefanski (analytics dept. ??) can design an offense that fits Watson, or tries to fit him to an offense.

Watson is a proven superstar. Multiple teams were willing to give up the 3 first round picks plus more in order to trade for Watson. The Browns haters don't want anyone else to consider that fact. It's just more of the "we Browned it...."

Personally speaking, I would rather give up that draft capital for a proven elite qb than give up similar draft capital for guys like Wentz, Goff, Trubisky, RGIII, Trey Lance, Justi, etc.

Baker got some publications' rookie of the year, let's not forget. He didn't get rookie of the year but a second publication iirc. gave him rookie of the year, and didn't he break the TD pass total for a rookie his Ist year, just to define
"not consistent and prolonged, patchy and intermittent" and, even if he benefited? Is the current winningest @b in the Browns stadium, he took from Roethlisburger spit. again, just to define "not consistent and patchy and intermittent" for Bakers success.

Moving on.
=============

Back to the draft picks being a part of the trade again.. ... again... sigh

The Career of, Julio freaking Jones aaaghhhhh.

The Browns are doing the same things for 30 years ?
look at the trophe case?
look at the div. they didn't win, the playoffs they didn't make, the trophes?
exact same thing and
will they learn, will the ownership learn? Will they make and sustain a brand and an identity and an ONFIELD identity?

He has proven he was a superstar. He has proven he was a proven elite QB. You act as if multiple teams haven't been wrong before. And multiple didn't and wouldn't go as far as the Browns did or he would be there instead of here.

I'm not saying he won't get back to what he once was. But those claiming they know he will don't know if that will happen either.

IIRc, to correct myself, they didn't pass on TJ Watt when they picked Njoku, it was the selection of Jabril Peppers at about I2th overall
if my memory ... that was where TJ Watt was still available, and all after they took TJ Ward at about 4th overall.

They passed on TJ watt for Jabril Peppers and later got Njoku, now? is that the year Kelce went to the chiefs at TE?
I think it was Kelce, if you saw Kelce's receiving production in college from the TE pos, and had paid attention to TE receiving for any course of a few year period in college prospects then Kelces numbers stood out like a Billboard, like a Billboard on steroids, as in that doesn't come around even every decade.
one of those TE's, I may have the player wrong, it was one of those TE's from back then.

In 2017 we took Jabril at # 25. The Steelers took Watt at #30. What a draft that would have been for us if we took Watt. We had already taken Myles at #1.

I don't think you have any idea what other teams were willing to give up to get Watson and you have no idea what kind of $$$ other teams were willing to throw at him. And IF you did, that would mean absolutely nothing because all that matters now is what he does as a Brown.

Watson is very likely to be better than Baker or Brissett in 2023 and beyond. Even in 2023 and beyond, the question will always linger....are the Browns better off with Watson? Or some other QB plus (3) 1st Rd picks, a 3rd and (2) 4ths and 230MM of guaranteed money?

He doesn't have to just be better...as that bar wasn't very high to begin with...but he has to be MUCH, MUCH better.


Who in the hell are these "Browns haters" and how do you have any clue what they want...about anything?

There aren't any Browns haters. It's just the kind of BS he tosses around in a lame attempt to further his agenda and show his disapproval of anyone with a differing opinion than his own.

There are numerous reports that talked about that there were multiple teams who agreed to the compensation the Texans were asking. I never once mentioned the money angle, but yet again, a Fabulous Baker Boy is trying to deceive others.

And the fabulous Baker hater carries on.

All this talk about if the trade was worth it or not is just dumb, even if Watson never regains his 2020 form. Watson is an elite athlete, with an elite arm, exceptional accuracy, and is a proven leader that guys want to play with and for...basically the caliber of QB the Browns have never had. You make that trade every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The only thing that will hold Watson back is the coaching staff, and they will unless they get kicked to the curb.

So...you have no proof of what you repeatedly claim to be true...you left out nearly a quarter billion $$$ contract (kind of relevant, ya thnk)...and catching you in your lies = someone ELSE deceiving others.

The best part of all that agenda BS is that no one on this board is disputing - or has disputed - that Watson over Baker is an upgrade at QB.

Agreed. It's the Baker fans who can't admit they are wrong and are trying to find ways to trash Watson and the Browns. Take WSU's post for example. Dude lies and then calls me a liar. LOL........they are unreal.

Even better - we moved up from the 2nd round to first round to draft the Joke at #29 before Watt at #30.

It boggled my mind at the time and still does to this day. Could have had bookend game wreckers at DE for the past 5 years.

Exactly, yet when you question these types of consistent blunders you get accused of having an anti-Browns agenda. Nice post.

A lot of people love Sashi, but his roster decisions were the worst I have ever seen since I started following the Browns.

You make up so much BS I had to invest in a coal shovel.

What BS? It's been confirmed that multiple teams agreed to the Texans' trade demands. That's not BS. It is not a lie. It's a fact.

So another Adult is needed because Vers is spamming the boards again with agenda, BS and nonsense once more. And apparently when posters point this out we get branded as children.

But in an attempt to sift through the current back and forth and deflection - here is the post that Vers is calling others names over - and falsely claiming that WSU is lying.

1. No one knows what other teams offered HOU - that's a straight up fact.
2. Knowing that HOU ACCEPTED other offers (I think there were 4 teams in the mix) - in no way shape or form means that anyone KNOWS WHAT WAS OFFERED. We only know what Cleveland finally did trade. And we know what HOU was reported to have wanted.
3. Last point - we absolutely have no clue what-so-ever what teams offered Watson in terms of contract and $$$. Another straight up fact.

So WSU made a post that was 100% legit.

Vers is spamming the baord multiple times calling him a liar. And apparently because some posters care enough to respond to this BS and pattern of behavior that is endless from one specific poster - we get lumped in with the cancerous poster.

If all it took, or would take is for multiple teams to want him at the time to =NFL greatness then
RGIII would have had a much longer and better career than both
Ryan Tannehill and Kirk Cousins who are both still in the league, and RGIII? I dunno, ,I think he's been gone a couple of years.

BAKER IS NOT ON THIS TEAM ANY LONGER!!!!!

Geesh, you guys much have Doctorates in dead horse beating.

And what does that have to do with watson?

Have you ever seen Andrew Berry's? ... of course you have.

Sheldon Richardson, Malik Jackson and Larry Ogunjobi are all, and were better at DL than Jordan Elliott, but? Andre Berry is ...

What play did Jerome Ford ever make to earn a roster spot on the Browns?

Somebody? has been trying for 4 years to pass off Drew Forbes and Nic Harris as real NFL players, but?
Berry drafted Anthony Schwartz off the track and field court,
Tony Fields II who probably today couldn't have started in those College two matchups yesterday.

That OL from Cincinnati Hudson who just can't take an injured Jed Wills spot last year when Wills was noticeably injured,
the Berry who brought in Jacoby Brisset in 2022, the Brisset whose dropbacks in the red zone lost, I think lost a couple of those games in the first seven weeks of the year
2 and 5 record. Berry is a gem.
Yep, DPJ and Harrison Bryant are the next Kelce and ?? receiver who left the chiefs for the dolphins. blah.

Did your friend in Houston give you that information.

It is factual that multiple teams agreed to the Texans trade demands. This has been reported by the most reputable insiders, including Shefty and Rappaport. Spin away w/your crap, but facts are facts.

Now, we will wait for one of your epic psychotic rants like the recent one where you went off on Memphis for not attacking another board member.

Maybe Paul DePodesta is making our draft picks too

Baker was the Browns #I overall pick After>>>> and may I repeat after fans patiently, pfff. put up with
I and fifteen, then 0 and I6, and bringing back the coach that ended up one, thirty one and one.

Let them beat the dead horse for one, thirty one, and one weeks.

Because
Browns ownership couldn't get a 2nd contract with their guy, their brand. The guy they chose when they had the number one overall pick.

Besides what is the worry? Baker putting up 51 points and Deshaun never putting up 40+.

So WSU made a post that was factually accurate. I made a post that was factually accurate and even states that multiple (four I believe) teams had offers accepted.

And you continue with the nonsense and deflection. Once again you have been proven to be talking out of your read end (that was your expression from the other day when Pit nailed you with more facts right?) .... can't make this stuff up.