DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why can't this franchise ever win the North?

Its really amazing to consider this franchise has never won
The AFC NORTH. The only other sports franchise I can
Equate this to is the Pittsburgh Pirates. But the Pirates
Ownership refuses to spend money.
But the NFL is structured in a way teams can go
From lovers to division title winners in 1 season.
Yet the Browns keep on inventing ineptness.
Is this franchise really cursed or does the Blame lay
With the ownership and a front office that is clueless?

It's because we have a HC that has never finished higher than 3rd in the division capped with a last place finish this year. You can't continue to stay on the same path when your division mates are whooping on you with less talent. The difference is clearly leadership, and the Browns have yet to find a coach since their return that's been a leader and the results speak volumes.

The Browns have a lot of talent. It's hard to believe they didn't do much better this season.

Kinda sad that the worst team in football that had the #1 draft pick each of the last 2 seasons has made the playoffs this year while our Super Bowl contending Browns finished last in the AFC North. But hey, let's give the guy whose teams have gotten worse every year since he's been here another shot at turning it around. Is it any wonder why the Browns are the second losingest team in the NFL the last 50-years?

The lack of a good HC over the years is one big reason. The other is our lousy drafting since we've returned as I have spoken about recently. We have a 3rd round pick right now, Martin Emerson, that is playing better than most of the #1's we've drafted since our return. Think about that...

2nd??? who the heck is worse?
The saints? Falcons? Bucs? Cards right cards? < they were all pretty bad for a while .
who was it.

Who?

Maybe we don't have as much talent as you think OR it's not being used correctly!!!!!

Mostly because the other teams have better cultures

I don't think this team has as much talent as what is perceived
But talent is a small part of the equation when trying to win
Is the team mentally strong ?
Does it have high IQ football players ?
The Browns are last in the North every year for a reason

Between January 8, 1973 and January 8, 2023, the worst record by a team the last 50-years

Detroit Lions________783______311-468-4_____.400
Cleveland Browns____736______295-437-4_____.404
TB Buccaneers______ 742______299-442-1_____.404
Jacksonville Jaguars__450______189-261-0_____ .420
Houston Texans_____ 338______142-195-1_____ .422
Arizona Cardinals____783______ 333-445-5_____ .428
New York Jets_______784______ 335-447-2_____ .429
Atlanta Falcons______784______ 353-429-2_____ .452
Cincinnati Bengals___ 783______ 358-421-4_____ .460
Carolina Panthers____450______ 212-237-1_____ .472

Losing culture. Lack of leadership from the top on down. No identity and no clear vision from ownership. The Browns have tried the Football Guy, The Nerds, The Patriot Tree, The College Coach, The Up and Comer, etc..., it's throwing darts at dartboard. This leads to constant change because ownership, from Lerner to Haslam, had/have no defined plan or clue on how to build a winner or what that looks like. They're guessing.

The rest is just a by-product of the above.

And now even the Lions are on the way up

It is what it is;50 years of futility with only a couple of good seasons mixed in.

Probably because no team fires coaches and FO personnel more than the Browns do. Other teams stick w/their guys for the most part. They allow them to develop. The Browns think firing guys is the answer. We blame everything on the HC or the GM. Thus, schemes are dropped and new ones are implemented. The fan base and media are so excited about how the old guys were so dumb and the new guys are really smart. They disregard questions about the new guys and proclaim that "we have to give these guys time" to turn things around. They also blame everything on the previous regime while forecasting sunny days in our very near future. Rosters are overhauled because the new guys need their kind of players to make the new, exciting, and fundamentally sound systems to work. Meanwhile, implementing new schemes and overhauling the roster takes time, which sets us back even more.

Flash forward 2-3 years and the entire process begins yet again and fans are leff to ask why can't this franchise ever be successful?

It's the Merry Go Round of Misery.

And we have fans on this forum wanting to keep going on the same path that secured us last place in the AFC North with a Super Bowl contending team.

I agree, they should have stuck with the plan from the beginning of 202I.
That being to re up their franchise #I overall draft pick @b, and let him get healthy for this year and beyond.

Chubb, Peoples-Jones, Garrett, Amari Cooper,

With Cooper, Watson, and Chubb we should be legit contenders with even an average OL (and ours is supposed to be above that)

With the assets we’ve spent on defense (garrett, Ward, Newsome, JOK, Delpit) we shouldn’t be this bad either

Yet we were 7-10 with those exact same players on the team. So, either the other teams have to get worse, or the Browns have to get a whole lot better with a HC that has never finished higher than 3rd place in the division. The Lions have finished better than us as has the Jaguars, New England, NYGiants, Washington, Seattle and we had the same record as the lowly Carolina Panthers. Legit contender is a stretch with this FO and HC in charge. The proof is in the record. Every team is based on wins and losses and the Browns were last in the AFC North with those players listed on the roster. Most of them the last 2 years which resulted in losing records both years.

The other thing we don't do is develop talent.

How many players have we drafted over the past 5 years are significantly better than they were when we drafted them? I would say Chubb. Maybe Peoples-Jones. Many are not as good as they were perceived when we drafted them.

As I typed that I started to question, how many free agents have we signed that are as good or better after joining us than they were before? At the moment I cannot think of any.

How about players we have traded for? Teller for sure. Cooper is about the same but we have only had him for 1 season to try to ruin him.

The last time the Browns had a franchise QB they won the division 4 out of 5 years. We just had 6 games with our new franchise QB. Those 6 games were very important for our team in the fall of 2023. I think it was a very tough situation Deshaun put himself in and to his credit he did not make excuses. In the last 6 games he QB'ed this team in a new system than he has ever ran before, with players he has never played with before, players that have not played with him before either. This all coming after he missed all of 2021. Am I saying that now that he has a full off season, camps, voluntary workouts with teammates that the Browns are going to win the North next year. No! But I do expect them to challenge for it next year simply because next year he will easily be the best QB under center for the Browns since Bernie.

Now the other reason I think the Browns have not been winning division titles. Plain and simple run defense. For 20+ years trying to run against the Ravens and Steelers have always been like running against a wall. In the few games the Browns found ways to run against those teams they have beaten them. The run defense is the most fundamental part of defense. Shut down the run and put the offense in predictable plays where the defense can pin their ears back, send exotic blitzes, and most importantly keep both safeties in the secondary playing center field. This year teams rushed 488 times for 4.7 yards per carry. If the defense can at least hold opponents to 3 yards per carry they would have to throw the ball another 100 times and mostly in situations behind the sticks. How many more sacks would Garrett have had.

The Steelers (Big Ben), The Ravens (McNair, Lamar), The Bengals (Palmer, Burrow) have had better QB's than the Browns. They have also especially the Steelers and Ravens have had better defenses and specifically run defenses.

DeShaun will give us a franchise QB that matches up we just b=need to fix the run D and this Defense will improve.

It is interesting some of the points you make. I think stability is crucial and have pointed out teams, including the Browns who changes coaches and FO people frequently rarely succeed. GM's draft players and obviously 1st and 2nd rounders are critical, but I think nearly as important are teams' 3rd to 5th round picks. They usually take longer to develop and if you are constantly changing coaches/FO people, the new guys don't want their jobs reliant on the previous regime's players. So, many times, just when the later picks are starting to develop, the new guys get rid of them for their picks/acquisitions.

Mike Brown is ridiculed in Cincinnati, but the man is patient and loyal. Their fans complained about him keeping Marvin Lewis who was making the playoffs and winning division titles. Brown and Lewis finally parted ways and hired their current coach. I read their message boards and halfway through last year they wanted Taylor fired. Heck, even after them going to the SB last year, a good number of their posters wanted him gone when they started 0-2 this year. Now he has them poised to possibly go again.

I have no idea if KS is a good coach or AB is a good GM, but I have been waiting since 1969 to see the Browns just play in a SB, let alone win one. I am willing to wait a bit longer to see what can be done with this team and a few additions for next season.

Many of you guys are young enough to know the less stable franchises of the recent past so I will go back about 50 years. The Eagles in the late 60s to mid 70s prior to Dick Vermeil were horrible, changing coaches like undershirts. The Oilers from late 60s until Bum Phillips were also constantly changing coaches. The Steelers were just as big a joke as today's Browns until they hired Noll, who went 1-13, 5-9 & 6-8 first 3 seasons. That record wouldn't be tolerated today. The Saints from their first year (1966 I think) until about 1978 when they 8-8 went through a lot of coaches. Many times, the press, along with fan pressure is the final straw for an owner who "has to do something".

Again, I don't know if KS or AB or the answer, but fans always seem to be smarter than professional football coaches and FO people. The Browns certainly don't care what I think, and many here will disagree, but I am willing to go at least one more season. Many have said we just need a franchise QB, so maybe a full season to find out if Watson can be again will tell us all we need t know after next year.

Anyway, not trying to be confrontational, just my 2 cents.

Nice post and you make a lot of valid points I concur with. There is much to be said about stability. Pittsburgh hasn't had a losing season in 19 years - stability - but they also have an excellent coach and FO. You made a valid point about Chuck Noll's first 3 years where that might not be tolerated today. The part I noticed though is even though the record was dismal, the team and their record improved each year of those first 3 years. As an owner, you might be inclined to stay with the HC if improvement is occurring each year. The Browns, however, have not been doing that under the leadership of Berry and Stefanski. They have never finished higher than 3rd place in the AFC North and finished all alone in last place this year after finishing tied for last in 2021. The real kicker though is they went from 11 wins to 8 wins to 7 wins the last 3 years. That is not a team that is improving under the guidance of Berry and Stefanski - it's a team that is failing and getting worse each year even with the heavy investment in skill players.

Stability is important but so is improvement and winning. Keeping a stable FO and HC while losing more and not improving is a recipe for disaster. Welcome to your Cleveland Browns.

I think one thing not mentioned is the Browns instability
At QB over the years. Every QB that has taken a snap
Since 1999, his end result is failure.
Even with DeShawn Watson as the QB for the next several
Seasons it's not a given that he lead this franchise
To a division title. He doesn't look like the same QB
That he was In Houston. I don't see the swag or
Confidence. And here's the kicker. Is Watson
Really motivated to win? He's gotten paid. He is
Set for life.

I've seen in this league teams that replace the HC and
Staff after a losing season and go to the playoffs
The next year. The Dolphins and Jags did it.
The Vikings replaced HC and the GM and won
The division this year.the Giants replaced HC and GM
And boom playoffs.

Some teams make the playoffs in year 3 under their HC
Brandon Staley and Zac Taylor.

Stefanski will be retained for this year but it's on
A very short leash. Any kind of slow start will
Doom him. And Berry needs to be put on notice.
His drafting is very porous and now he has to
Find immediate playmakers in the middle rds
Not developmental picks.
He has to find football players that put team above anything
Else.

Last but not least. This team will have a hard
Time attracting free agents that are in the great to
Elite level. It will have to overpay for average free agents

I’d think njoku is one of the few players who we hav successfully developed. Maybe DPJ too

I know everyone wants to blame Haslam and rightfully so, but the Browns have the second worst record in the NFL the last 50-years - not just the last 10 with Haslam. This poor showing isn't just during Haslam's ownership - it's been going on for 50-years. Finding the right combination of FO and HC is the key - it's just taking the Browns longer than anyone else except for the Lions. Of course, even the Lions had a better record than the Browns this year. If it isn't right, then you have to change it until you do get it right. It's only been 50-years - right?

The 50 years doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is this year.

I don't think if we had won a few superbowls 25 years ago that everything would be OK. Even you mitigate the Lions by saying they had a better record this year.
No doubt things need to change but to hold 50 years of history against the current people isn't a point at all.

I guess it was missed that Milk posted that the Browns have the second worst record in the NFL for the 10-years of Haslam ownership. Maybe I missed you pointing out to him that we only care about this year's team too. My point was simple, Haslam might be an awful team owner, but the Browns record over the last 50-years is the exact same as Haslam's. Now that might not be the point you want stressed today, but it does show that mediocrity didn't start with Haslam's ownership and keeping Stefanski on after his dismal performance the last 2-years isn't going to change that trend. Hah, I see they've already claimed their scapegoat for this season. It'll be interesting to find out what quality of a DC they can find knowing they have to review their game plans every week with the analytics dept.

You were making a point about 50 years

I didn't say anything about 10 years, but even that gets to be out of focus. The last 2-3, I agree, things need to start showing up. We have been through the rebuild, the players seem to be here, we are told the window is open, it's time to prove there actually is a window of opportunity.

If i was haslam, i would keep fanski one more season. I would also tie Berry to his hip and tell them upfront that unless something totally from out of left field happens, it's playoffs or out the door for them.

It wouldn't be understood. It wouldn't be insinuated. It would flat out be told in a face to face meeting with the two of them. It's sink or swim for both.

Defense wins Championships. And a great defense trumps a great offense most every time.

A high powered offense is great, but a great defense is more important, I'd rather win 6-3 than lose 30-27

Because we've never had a franchise QB since the return.

/Thread

This is pretty accurate as well. Watson is supposedly that guy, so let’s hope it’s the case

I'm here also - with the exception of trying to get Sean Payton. If I could get S.P. - Stefanski would be Goneski. Barring the ability to get Sean Payton - I give KS one more year and it's exactly as you spelled out. And frankly backing into the playoffs on the last game of the season and losing in the Wild Card game would be also be a goneski event for both.

The issue with Sean Payton - which I didn't realize till recently - he is essentially owned by New Orleans. Any team that wants to have him as their HC will need to compensate New Orleans - and what I read the other day inferred it would be a minimum of a 1st round pick to land him. So he isn't going to be a Brown.

Yesterday's repeat performance that mirrored the worst of Stefanki's issues throughout his tenure here really has me leaning slightly more to letting him go than keeping him --- but you have to replace him with someone better and I don't know who that would be. ESPN had a really interesting / fun piece (link below) highlighting some of the top HC candidates this offseason. It's been updated since to reflect some changes - but has a short coach bio on a few guys and I am not really interested in any of them. So keep KS and give him 1 more year.

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/s...make-your-pick-texans-lions-falcons-jobs

* Interesting they didn't have all those teams listed the other day - they also had different head coach candidates like Jim Harbaugh was listed. Not sure what's changed.

I would do exactly what we’re doing as well (and maybe I’d find a new ST coordinator .. I’m on the fence with that one).

My assumption is that we had better see an uptick in execution, discipline, and W’s obviously. If we are under .500 next year we’ll be looking for a new coach

Um, the Browns ended in 1995. It doesn’t matter what their records were before Cleveland was awarded an expansion team. Yes, the Browns have sucked since the expansion team was created.

First off, the term “franchise quarterback” is meaningless. Every team looks for players, especially QBs, that can lead the offense. The problem lies in judging talent in that QB and the players assembled around them. How many people clamored for Josh Rosen or Sam Darnold before Baker was drafted? If an organization is not correctly assembled the end result will be the same.

Second, no one gets to know what would have happened. Baker’s issues can be seen from his overall performance this year. Which is also irrelevant to the way the Browns played.

The only rebuttal I have to not having a FQB is this: say we drafted Mahomes or Allen, I bet they’d stink here anyways lol. It’s a two way street

Here's a list of current candidates for NFL HC positions

Dan Quinn - Dallas Cowboys defensive coordinator - Pitching up in Dallas could not have gone much better for Dan Quinn and the task of repairing a reputation partially dented when he was fired as Atlanta Falcons head coach in 2022.

Jim Harbaugh: Head coach, Michigan - As head coach of the 49ers, Harbaugh went 44-19-1, made the playoffs three of his four seasons and made it to the Super Bowl in 2012.

DeMeco Ryans - San Francisco 49ers defensive coordinator - His defense ranks first in points per game, yards per game, yards per rush, rushing yards per game, first downs per game and touchdown-interception ratio.

Sean Payton - Former New Orleans Saints head coach - The Super Bowl champion who steered Drew Brees to NFL quarterbacking royalty will accompany Quinn at the top of most wishlists having led the Saints to winning records in 10 of his 15 seasons in charge, secured a playoff berth in nine and transformed the New Orleans offense into one of the most potent and consistent in the league.

Ejiro Evero - Denver Broncos defensive coordinator - The Broncos may have a star on their hands, floating amid the woes of Hackett's wreckage. A British-born star on course for a top job, or top job contention at the very least. Evero has tempered a hobbling offense on the brink of total shutdown with success as one of the most productive defenses in the league to propel him among head coaching murmurs.

Shane Steichen - Philadelphia Eagles offensive coordinator - The ascent of Jalen Hurts from unconvincing rookie to sophomore superstar has reflected glowingly on Eagles offensive coordinator Shane Steichen, who had earned his role in Philly by way of overseeing the 2020 Chargers offense in which Herbert played his way to Offensive Rookie of the Year.

Jonathan Gannon - Philadelphia Eagles defensive coordinator - Jonathan Gannon's defense leads the NFL in sacks, interceptions, while ranking second in total yards allowed per game - a nifty return for a coach that has been called out for lacking aggression.

Jerod Mayo - New England Patriots inside linebackers coach - The Patriots' Jerod Mayo secret is out. If it ever was a secret. Those inside the building will have long vouched for the head coach credentials of the 36-year-old, who has been integral to restoring a stifling Bill Belichick defense of previous years.

Leslie Frazier - Buffalo Bills defensive coordinator - Leslie Frazier is likely to prove the most experienced option among this coming cycle's candidates with 24 years of NFL coaching behind him at the age of 63. A decade on since being fired as Minnesota Vikings head coach he directs a Buffalo Bills defense that has the second most interceptions in the league since his appointment in 2017.

Ben Johnson - Detroit Lions offensive coordinator - Ben Johnson's offense is partly to thank for that, his 'make yourself at home' message to Jared Goff with a perfectly-tailored system offering similarities to that which he led in college having reinvigorated a written-off quarterback while elevating Detroit's attack among the most entertaining in the league.

Frank Smith - Miami Dolphins offense coordinator - Frank Smith is a wildcard shout here, whose time is more likely to come a year from now, a few years from now, but you might be naive to ignore the potential.

Chiefs offensive coordinator Eric Bieniemy and Cowboys offensive coordinator Kellen Moore have become recurring names on the coaching cycle in recent years as they work towards top jobs, former Colts head coach Reich is likely to come into consideration after his midseason firing, Giants defensive coordinator 'Wink' Martindale has boosted his stock through his blitz-heavy scheme in New York, Seattle Seahawks offensive coordinator Shane Waldron has played a part in one of the stories of the season with Geno Smith and Los Angeles Rams defensive coordinator Raheem Morris remains highly-regarded despite the team's post-Super Bowl slump.