Tyler, I really like their candidates, and I do think it’s indicative, to some degree, of ex-Lions GM Bob Quinn’s growing influence in the organization—three of the four guys interviewing were raised in the business by Bill Belichick, just like Quinn. The one who doesn’t have such ties is Seattle assistant Sean Desai, who is friendly with Kevin Stefanski, is a favorite of the Browns analytics team, and competed against the Browns coach for years in the NFC North.
IMO, the above comments boil down to the Browns hiring the candidate who is the best connected to someone on the inside the Browns organization.
From Tyler Johnson (@T_johnson_TJ): Who do you believe the #Browns will hire as defensive coordinator?
Tyler, I really like their candidates, and I do think it’s indicative, to some degree, of ex-Lions GM Bob Quinn’s growing influence in the organization—three of the four guys interviewing were raised in the business by Bill Belichick, just like Quinn. The one who doesn’t have such ties is Seattle assistant Sean Desai, who is friendly with Kevin Stefanski, is a favorite of the Browns analytics team, and competed against the Browns coach for years in the NFC North.
If I had to peg a favorite right now, I’d probably go with Pittsburgh senior defensive assistant-linebackers coach Brian Flores, and I have heard owner Jimmy Haslam is a fan of his. Patriots linebackers coach Jerod Mayo has merit, too, in that there have been a lot of coordinator-type functions to his job with the Patriots—he runs meetings and helps design the defense and gameplans—and he could be a culture-changer for a unit that, in an honest moment, Browns people would tell you they need on defense.
Conversely, going with Jim Schwartz (whose connection to Belichick is actually from Cleveland) would represent two different things. The first would be scheme familiarity—what he would presumably bring is a lot closer to the Pete Carroll style of defense that Joe Woods ran the past three years in Cleveland. The second is a connection to GM Andrew Berry, from the time the two were together in Philadelphia.
So, again, I’d say Flores is probably the one, with the added benefit of such a hire kicking the legs out from underneath a division rival. We’ll see what happens.
Aaron Donald is 6'1" 285. Ray Lewis 6'1" 240 at best.
...Production is all.
bone...how do some teams manage to scoop up these "hidden gems" in the draft..?
I can tell folks how some franchises often FAIL to find these players who don't quite fit the ideal specification...you don't find these special players by sitting on your butt in your office researching on a computer.
Those teams that are willing to hire and use qualified, experienced scouts who know they must travel and meet and watch these players practice and play.
Teams can be lazy and research from their offices...or they can attempt to get out and find out what makes a player perform.
You can't attempt to judge DESIRE AND DETERMINATION ... no way to measure what is inside a player that makes him outperform others who might be more gifted physically.
Good scouts do the work..trying to find out what is inside a player's skull and the size of his heart..!
When it is your turn to draft. Or, you are looking at an impact player in FA or in trade.
Aaron Donald is 6'1" 285. Ray Lewis 6'1" 240 at best.
You don't often get the ideal size choice.
You have to select the "player."
Brees was no physical specimen. He was not big, not fast, and did not have a great arm.
He was just a great quarterback.
Production is all.
Definitely don't disagree - Donovan's point that he believed that Berry and the FO had made a conscious decision to buck a trend and target and draft/acquire smaller and faster DT's and LBs than traditionally thought of as optimum for those roles. It was a comment and opinion on what the FO had decided to do - and how Ragland and Taki had stepped in thru injury and sort of exposed an error with the way they were thinking. I'm paraphrasing but anyone with a land on demand account can listen to the interview here:
Another way too is talking to the kids College coach. I don't know anyone more important and knowledgeable to give important and pertinent info on a player.
As far as the hands go, I personally think the D needs a tougher minded coach. Our guys seem entitled on that side of the ball. Too much talking and not enough results. We need more guys who are mentally and emotionally tough. Not sure if that fits in w/what our FO wants.
So to sum it up, we have a bunch of wussies on that side of the ball.
I agree that the Browns went to a lighter, faster, more agile players on defense. I don't think they really were bucking a trend, though. I think that was--and still is--the trend. I suppose it bucked a ton if Donovan meant from years gone by when LBers were big and strong.
This is an article all the way back from 2016 about how lighter linebackers were becoming the norm and they talk quite a bit about our new LBer, Deion Jones. As I researched the 4-2-5, I learned that the teams that run that defense do have one space-eating NT type to play offset of the center. Here is the article about lighter LBers.
Check out the list of names and time served of our DCs since our return. Each one was regarded as a large upgrade over his predecessor. LOL
Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator history
Joe Woods Woods is the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns since the 2020 season, a total of three years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2020) and had a 1-1 record under Coach Woods in playoff games.
Steve Wilks Wilks was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2019 season.
Gregg Williams Williams was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2017-2018 seasons, a total of two years.
Louie Cioffi Cioffi was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2016 season. Cioffi's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 1-15-0, making him the least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.
Jim O'Neil O'Neil was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2014-2015 seasons, a total of two years.
Ray Horton Horton was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2013 season.
Dick Jauron Jauron was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2011-2012 seasons, a total of two years.
Rob Ryan Ryan was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2009-2010 seasons, a total of two years.
Mel Tucker Tucker was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2008 season.
Todd Grantham Grantham was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2005-2007 seasons, a total of three years.
Dave Campo Campo was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2003-2004 seasons, a total of two years.
Foge Fazio Fazio was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2001-2002 seasons, a total of two years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2002) and had a 0-1 record under Coach Fazio in playoff games.
Romeo Crennel Crennel was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2000 season. Crennel's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 3-13-0, making him the third-least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.
Bob Slowik Slowik was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 1999 season. Slowik's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 2-14-0, making him the second-least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.
Tyler, I really like their candidates, and I do think it’s indicative, to some degree, of ex-Lions GM Bob Quinn’s growing influence in the organization—three of the four guys interviewing were raised in the business by Bill Belichick, just like Quinn. The one who doesn’t have such ties is Seattle assistant Sean Desai, who is friendly with Kevin Stefanski, is a favorite of the Browns analytics team, and competed against the Browns coach for years in the NFC North.
IMO, the above comments boil down to the Browns hiring the candidate who is the best connected to someone on the inside the Browns organization.
That is likely the worst way to hire a DC, imo..!
I don't think it says that. I think it simply states connections between the candidates and the Browns.
You are always talking about NFL experience. You mentioned Mayo's lack of experience. In a job where coaches usually bounce around 3-4-5-6 times in their career, not to mention interactions with other players, scouts, coaches, and FO types it hard not to have connections. The NFL is all about connections. Life for that matter is about connections.
It makes perfect sense to point out the various connections. I am sure that even you haven't lived in a vacuum and are void of friendships and connections.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Another way too is talking to the kids College coach. I don't know anyone more important and knowledgeable to give important and pertinent info on a player.
I think all college coaches are sought out. That said, it depends on the coach and the relationship with the guy. He wants his players drafted as much as the player wants to be drafted. All coaches want to be able to point out to recruits that his school can also lead to the NFL.
Except for the top level players, it's hard to take a deep dive in to the kid. It's not like you can have private detectives digging in to maybe 200 draftable players. Teams just don't have the resources or time to do that. Especially considering that teams don't even have an idea on which 2-3 players they might be able to draft until maybe 20 minutes before they are on the clock.
The gap between who you think you might be able to draft and who you actually can grows wider the further in to the draft a team gets.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
I agree that the Browns went to a lighter, faster, more agile players on defense. I don't think they really were bucking a trend, though. I think that was--and still is--the trend. I suppose it bucked a ton if Donovan meant from years gone by when LBers were big and strong.
This is an article all the way back from 2016 about how lighter linebackers were becoming the norm and they talk quite a bit about our new LBer, Deion Jones. As I researched the 4-2-5, I learned that the teams that run that defense do have one space-eating NT type to play offset of the center. Here is the article about lighter LBers.
You first saw this in the college game where team speed was evident. The pro's went that direction as the college game went that direction. They really had no choice. College is where innovation happens.
More than a few years back I talked about how the QB position was changing and O was going to change. Well, here we are. A more wide open, spread O with QB's who run. College D's had to adjust to that, now pro D's are trying to adjust. Teams need speed, and 250 backers don't provide that. You see more and more 220 lb backers. The pros are even having a hard time finding those type of backer because they are fewer and fewer to be found. Colleges don't have then anymore.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
It makes perfect sense to point out the various connections. I am sure that even you haven't lived in a vacuum and are void of friendships and connections.
It might come down to whom ever Jimmy likes best...better hope Haslam gets this right.
Smaller, faster more agile LBers...look at what that scheme did for the Browns defense...
Total Rush yds (2295) .....25th Yards per/carry (4.7) ......25th Rushing TDs (22)............29th 1st downs by rush (129)..26th
When we look at the areas of weakness for the Browns run defense...the middle, where run stopping LBers operate and the flat area, from the end to the sidelines where a 2 LB set has trouble defending.
Not only did the Browns smaller, faster scheme fail to stop the run, but the rest of the AFC North uses 240 to 250 pound LBers and a nose tackle and all of those teams Ravens, Bengals and Steelers..rank near the top in the NFL at stopping the run.
If that doesn't illustrate A FAILED DEFENSIVE CONCEPT..I don't know what does.
In the AFC/North, the winning teams do not play college size LBers..!
You are well w/in your rights to trash every single move the Browns make. However, it is NOT just a Browns thing. The entire league is doing the same thing. I don't think it is too hard to figure out why teams have turned toward smaller, faster, more agile LBers. The league has become a passing league. You need those types of LBers in today's game. To not follow the league trend would have been ignorant.
The league is cyclical and there were a few signs that teams are going to go more to a power game on offense to exploit the league-wide tendency to have lighter LBers, so things may change once again. Some people adapt and evolve w/the times. Others get stuck in the past and are left behind.
Every position has ideal physical profiles of height, weight and speed.
Physical dimensions are useful and can be important. Every NFL team places a premium on speed especially for certain positions.
The Combine is about physicals, dimensions, and athletic abilities. Analytics can be useful as tool to look at how all these physical attributes can translate to playing.
However, you can not replace eyes, and boots on the ground. In the end football is a game. Some guys are just good football players.
Take receivers for example. Everybody wants to know how fast is he. Sure it is important. You can not be a snail.
But some guys just know to get open and catch the ball. Jerry Rice and Larry Fitzgerald were not blazzers.
Martin Emerson did not test fast. But that young man is a player. His head is the game. He competes on every play.
Good scouts are super valuable. Analytics and study is a tool. But there are intangibles that determine attitude, instincts, and effort.
vers..lets not make this into some make believe contest...I put the figures in front of you and the rest and I ask...do the Browns expect to win the AFC North playing a failed defensive concept that relies on "little, quick, tweeners"..?
Or do the Browns look at what wins in the NFL and especially what wins in the AFC North and realize that the Browns first hurdle is winning or qualifying for a WC position. The rest of the teams in the AFC North GET IT DEFENSIVELY, and I invite you to look at their LB personnel and compare them to the Browns LB personnel.
This trend you speak of..small, quick, fast LBers might work at the college level...but the AFC North is not like playing college ball. Also, this so called 'trend'...it does not translate into a winning scheme in the AFC North.
Face reality..the Browns win nothing if they can't win the AFC North or qualify for a WC birth.
Seems like it would be a good time to re-post (can no longer quote) your post from a couple months ago... and this gem...
Re: Browns News & Notes cont. Versatile Dog#198661011/16/22 11:22 AM
I could not find anywhere else to put this, so I put here because we run the ball a lot. A lot of football shows are filled w/fluff, but this was actually an educational and enlightening discussion on the continued evolution of NFL offenses and defenses. No hot takes. No controversy. Just football talk w/good data to back up their claims.
Some stats (from mid-November, not sure how much they've changed)
League wide average per reception ~ 11.0 Lowest since 1933
League wide average per rushing attempt ~ 4.5 Highest in NFL history
League wide scoring average 21.6 points ~ Lowest since 2008
Marcus Spears and Mina Kimes (pigskin genius) do a great job explaining it all. The short of it all is this: in a race to find more speed and athletic players at every level of the defense, most of these players have become more long and rangy; less girth, size and brawn. Space-eaters are gone, defensive linemen are 30-50lbs lighter. These dudes are not built to be punched in the face thirty times per game.
Every position has ideal physical profiles of height, weight and speed.
bone...that is why I want smart, instinctive LBers in the range of 240 to 250 lbs to stop the run, kind of like the Ravens, Steelers and Bengals have.
If this trend smaller, faster more agile LBers is a winning formula...why aren't the other AFC North teams using the same defense..?
I want a LB who fast enough, strong enough and tough enough to play the LBer position in the middle of the Browns defense. Someone who can take on blockers and plug holes.
I have no idea what Donovan's inside knowledge of the Browns FO is. . . but just as a point of clarification, his comments about bucking trends and doing things differently was not in relation to smaller LB's that are faster and sideline to sideline / every down players. It was in relation to their entire approach to team building - and regards the Defense this year, the inference was both DL and LB being small and athletic - and this board seems to be focusing entirely on the LB position and justifying that. It was talked about a lot this year - for a 4-2-5 it was suggested you NEED big DT's to make it work - Donovan's comments implied smaller athletic DT's was a decision the FO took .... and the implication was this was coaches and Berry acting together on the same page. . . . and to add one more layer - Donovan's comments were definitely and unequivocally insinuating or stating the FO got it WRONG and needed to own/accept that maybe bucking every trend isn't the best thing to do and maybe things done 'traditionally' in the NFL are done so because they work.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
IMO it is way more than size though. An old cliche is:
"A good big man will always beat a good little man."
Maybe for some things and as a general rule. However, football is a game.
I buy into doing your job. Knowing your opponent and ways you can beat him. Playing as a unit.
If a large linebacker plays the run well but struggles in coverage. He can not play three downs in the NFL.
If a DT is undersized the question is can he do his job in your defensive scheme. Aaron Donald is under 300 lbs.
Scheme fit is important. Perrion Winfrey is not NT. He is 3 tech guy.
The defensive failure in the 2022 season was stopping run. The emphasis of the Browns DL was penetration and pass rush. The failure of Berry, Woods, and KS was first the DT rotation itself. Elliott, Bryan, Togiai, Winfrey inexperienced and not good to begin with. There size was below average but so was there skill level. In fact they stunk.
Myself I hated the scheme as well. Not that it was a 4-2-5 base defense but the way they played it. I believe many players were missed used.
First the DT rotation lacked talent. You can not expect results when you are trying to develop four young players with questionable skills to begin with.
That is a failure on Berry's part. One stud or two vets at least. Not four beginners with poor skill.
I have no idea what Donovan's inside knowledge of the Browns FO is. . . but just as a point of clarification, his comments about bucking trends and doing things differently was not in relation to smaller LB's that are faster and sideline to sideline / every down players. It was in relation to their entire approach to team building - and regards the Defense this year, the inference was both DL and LB being small and athletic - and this board seems to be focusing entirely on the LB position and justifying that. It was talked about a lot this year - for a 4-2-5 it was suggested you NEED big DT's to make it work - Donovan's comments implied smaller athletic DT's was a decision the FO took .... and the implication was this was coaches and Berry acting together on the same page. . . . and to add one more layer - Donovan's comments were definitely and unequivocally insinuating or stating the FO got it WRONG and needed to own/accept that maybe bucking every trend isn't the best thing to do and maybe things done 'traditionally' in the NFL are done so because they work.
I agree with this opinion and IMHO further confirms that Stefanski had a serious hand in the decision-making process of the players used to man this defense. Just like many posters on this forum though, taking accountability and owning up to the gross mistake that has occurred now over 2 consecutive seasons has produced crickets coming out of Berea and the blame game continues with Woods being the fall guy this time. Remember, the Browns had the worst DT's in the entire NFL in 2021 and they one upped it in 2022 by bringing in guys who were worse than the previous year. Leadership is so lacking that it's comical.
So, now the question becomes "what now?" Fans, analysts, and broadcasters have all seen the weakness of the interior defense, but has the Browns hierarchy seen it? We just saw the DC fired for the failure to perform with inferior players. Now they are looking for a new DC but have they seen the problem with the type of player selected? Is a new DC going to be expected to come in and run the same type of defensive scheme with just a new mix of players? IMHO, the real concern is that the Browns had the worst interior defense in the entire league in 2021. The Browns made zero attempt to change the type of player (small and athletic) in the 2021 off season, they just doubled down with their team building approach with different even less effective players. Now a year later, the Browns again have the worse defensive interior in the NFL, fired the DC, accepted no accountability, and are in the process of hiring a new DC. The question nobody has an answer for: are the Browns going to alter their defense to a more traditional concept of player/team building or is Berry and Stefanski ready to triple down their approach to building the defense? I'm leaning toward triple down and that's a huge problem!
..... The question nobody has an answer for: are the Browns going to alter their defense to a more traditional concept of player/team building or is Berry and Stefanski ready to triple down their approach to building the defense? I'm leaning toward triple down and that's a huge problem!
This may be on here somewhere, but back to real news rather than fake news about Berry and Stefanski...
Talking about player personnel decisions and how the team performed - areas directly under control of Berry and Stefanski, who most would want to be held accountable - not allowed.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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