The Browns could also lean on him to HC the team should Stefanski get fired mid-season next year.

Flores, Meyo, Schwartz would all be nice IMO

J/C

If a team is hiring an assistant to be on staff in case the head coach gets fired the following year, then fire the damn head coach immediately. He's clearly not your guy.

It's tongue in cheek!

An added bonus, no-less though.

Stefanski won't be fired at any point during the 2023-2024 season, imo.

As far as the DC replacement, I don't think we will necessarily go with a "big" name - definitely not someone that Berry and Depo envision being capable of taking over as HC should things go awry next season.

Maybe someone that hasn't been discussed too much among fans yet.

To add: JOK could prosper under the correct choice.

Updated list...

The two latest additions to the DC list include Sean Desai who was DC in Chicago in 2021 and is now with Seattle runs the 3-4 base too just like Flores and Mayo. Jim Swartz is working with a 3-4 base now in Tennessee but out of the four candidates - the only one with a lot of experience running the 4-3 base.

Just clicking here,, but what about Lovie Smith?

As previously discussed on the other thread, Mayo and Flores are 3-4 guys.

Schwartz runs a 4-3 and uses the Wide-9 for his DEs.

Desai's defensive scheme seems similar to Woods in that he deploys 2 LBers and 3 Safeties quite often, but I think he ran a base 3-4. That seems contradictory. I do think his intelligence and personality is more aligned w/our FO and HC.

I'm with whoever it was that said hold the Mayo. I'm tired of experiments where the Browns elevate someone to a job they have never come close to having before. The whole "let's see if they can do it" for the first time has gotten old. And I know some will say that's the way to find good coaches. And that's fine and all. But let's face it, with the group of talent this team has now and with watson under contract for the next four years, the time for experiments and "developing" a DC isn't what this FO should be doing right now. This team has invested 230 million dollars in a QB. That's not the time for an unproven commodity to be put in charge of the O or the D. The Browns under the current situation have a four year window of opportunity. They have to make that count before this whole thing gets blown up again. And with the deal they gave watson, they put their entire career here and moving forward on the line.

Check out the list of names and time served of our DCs since our return. Each one was regarded as a large upgrade over his predecessor. LOL


Cleveland Browns defensive coordinator history

Joe Woods
Woods is the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns since the 2020 season, a total of three years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2020) and had a 1-1 record under Coach Woods in playoff games.

Steve Wilks
Wilks was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2019 season.

Gregg Williams
Williams was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2017-2018 seasons, a total of two years.

Louie Cioffi
Cioffi was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2016 season. Cioffi's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 1-15-0, making him the least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.

Jim O'Neil
O'Neil was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2014-2015 seasons, a total of two years.

Ray Horton
Horton was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2013 season.

Dick Jauron
Jauron was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2011-2012 seasons, a total of two years.

Rob Ryan
Ryan was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2009-2010 seasons, a total of two years.

Mel Tucker
Tucker was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2008 season.

Todd Grantham
Grantham was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2005-2007 seasons, a total of three years.

Dave Campo
Campo was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2003-2004 seasons, a total of two years.

Foge Fazio
Fazio was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2001-2002 seasons, a total of two years. The team made it to the playoffs one time (2002) and had a 0-1 record under Coach Fazio in playoff games.

Romeo Crennel
Crennel was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 2000 season. Crennel's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 3-13-0, making him the third-least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.

Bob Slowik
Slowik was the defensive coordinator for the Cleveland Browns in the 1999 season. Slowik's record as the team's defensive coordinator was 2-14-0, making him the second-least successful defensive coordinator in Cleveland Browns history.


https://pro-football-history.com/franchpos/32/8/cleveland-browns-defensive-coordinator-history

Yes Siree Bob, changing coaches always works.

As is often the case, when a HC is fired so is the rest of his coaching staff. So I'll ask again, name one Browns HC since the teams return who was fired here that went on to be a successful HC for any other NFL team? Thanks in advance.

j/c:

I think it just Browns fans hope more than anything. Selling hope is about the only thing the Browns have been good at since '99. Come the new season it'll be time to belly up to the bar for another round of hope.

Averaging a new DC every 1.5 years is pretty impressive! The Pumpkin and Woods get feathers in their cap for lasting the longest.

LOL......exactly.

I really like Schwartz. I think we have the pieces to make his defense go. Just need to add some monsters on the Dline

Flores or Schwartz would be the two at the top of my list, easily. I don't know much about too many of the candidates - but I like what Flores did in Miami and I don't care that he called out the owner who paid him to tank.... I like Schwartz. And I like DC's (and OC's) who have had stints at HC roles.

Agreed. Either one would be a good choice. That's one thing we have as Browns fans; plenty to talk about even if it's mostly negative....

Right now, I am hoping Flores is the choice. He's a tough guy. Very military oriented in his approach. No nonsense. I think he will shut up the defenders who point fingers rather than thumbs. I think Stefanski can turn the D over to him. Yes, they will consult, but the D will be Flores'. Just like guys like Andy Reed, Shanny, McVay, Payton, etc.

Of course, they never pick who I want, so I probably put the kiss of death on him.

It's time to bring Wink back to Ohio

I agree. We need someone tough running the D for the reasons you mentioned. Then KS won't have to worry about the D and can concentrate on bringing DW up to speed with whatever O we plan to run. Speaking of that we should be able to have a more wide-open O with DW. Maybe some new longer pass plays (as long as we can get another WR or 2 with speed)

Have the same thoughts... I like Flores and Schwartz out of that list...

Hold the Mayo and throw the sandwich on the Flores.

In keeping theme... May the Schwartz be with us.

Good article that illustartes Schwartz's fingerprints on the Titans defense.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/11/16/23461620/tennessee-titans-playoff-push-afc-south-defense

Not sure how the defense as a whole would do, but I think Garrett would thrive in a the wide 9 that Schwartz seems to like to run.

I think it would be a good fit for Delpit as well.

Yeah guys, nice stealing my ‘hold the mayo’ line, which I stole from Airplane. 😃
We don’t have a lot of 3-4 fits, we need to spend some up-level money on a stud DT, perhaps two. I’d throw money at Schwartz.

Wasn’t Schwartz known for the wide 9 in Philly? Is that what he typically does?

Only person I want in the list that we are considering is Schwartz.. the rest haven't done anything on their own

It would not surprise me if Jim Leonhard is hired to be the Special Teams Coordinator.

Personally I like Flores, but our personnel on defense seems a better fit for Schwartz.

I have always liked Schwartz. Probably because he was with the Titans for a number of years so I am more familiar with him. His D would be an easier transition than that of the 3-4 guys....assuming the 3-4 guys continue to be 3-4 guys. Nothing says they can't or wouldn't adjust their scheme to the players on this team.

Just because they haven't run 4-3 type D's doesn't mean they can't.

I like Leonard. I wouldn't rule him out for DC. I don't buy in to him not being an NFL coach before. That said, ST coordinator is an interesting thought.

That's an interesting thought. He's an extremely intelligent coach that would help us and we would provide him the valuable experience of coaching in the NFL so he could get a DC gig later on.

The candidates for the DC position have been announced.

The guy I want is Brian Flores.

I have a lot of respect for Aditi Kinkhabwala. She is a cool lady who really understands the NFL. I listened to her on the Cleveland show.

She made mention of how Flores is perceived in Pittsburgh. Well thought of by the players and respected. I can not say I know a lot about the guy.

When he filed the law suit. I thought he was truthful and brave. The fact that Tomlin hired him impressed me. I think he got royally screwed in Miami.

I am not that concerned about the scheme he would run. I am more interested in him as defensive coach, teacher and a guy who can lead a defense.

I don't think from what I have seen of Flores that his players will be looking at each other wondering who covers who or where.

I want to see the defense be unpredictable and aggressive. IMO blitzing is a tactical tool. Not be overused but to be used strategically.

I have no basis or knowledge other than impression. But I think he will bring a needed attitude.

I am sure the others being considered all are qualified. Someone else may do fine. But my vote is for Flores.

Flores or Schwartz. Either or and I will be very happy

Just a question. Does a new DC ever adapt his preferred scheme (3-4 to a 4-3 or vice versa) when he’s hired? Surely a good D coach can play it either way.

There's a lot to unpack with the first suitor in the Deshaun Watson sweepstakes. That team was the Miami Dolphins and their coach happened to be Brian Flores...

The cliff notes go like this:

Flores wanted to draft Justin Herbert, they drafted Tua instead.

Flores didn't really like Tua. I don't know if they were simply oil and water or which one had the bigger attitude problem.

Flores actually benched Tua in favor of Brissett. When Brissett got injured, he had no choice but to play him.

Flores really wanted Watson and even told Tua they were looking to trade for him.

Watson really wanted to play for Flores, and was one of the main reasons he was waiving his "no trade" to try to work out a deal.


=========================


Was Miami Dolphins Brian Flores pitching a fit over Deshaun Watson?
by Brian Miller12 months ago Follow @Txmedic5

The Miami Dolphins surprisingly fired Brian Flores on Monday and the trickle effect is still coming to light four days later. So what’s the latest?

As the Dolphins begin searching for a head coach that even they may not have believed was going to happen this year, rumors have continued to percolate around the NFL with more and more information coming out.

We have heard the whole, “communication and relationship” versions of the Dolphins side of things and have yet to hear much from the Flores side of things, in fact, we have heard nothing but one thing, based on a new report, has me wondering if this entire mess wasn’t the culmination of Miami’s failed attempt to get Deshaun Watson?

We will dive into that in a quick second but to rehash, numerous reports have indicated that Flores didn’t like Tua Tagovailoa. Here are a few of the comments that have been reported.

✨ Tua and Flores had words and “eff” bombs at halftime of the Titans game.
✨ A report said that Flores told the young QB that he should have drafted Mac Jones this year to replace him.
✨ A report said that Flores would bench Tua and run a Brissett play if Tua didn’t do exactly what he told him to.
✨ Flores refused to endorse Tua during the Watson trade talks and then left the entire saga on the shoulders of Grier never commenting on the situation after.

Now, another report from an ESPN radio segment may shed even more light on all of this. According to this, you can watch below, Flores’ communication with the team wasn’t just with Grier but also with his assistants. Per the report, Flores stopped daily meetings and it makes you question what the game plans were like, especially on offense. According to this report, it started around November.


This brings us back to the topic at hand. Was his attitude change a result of being saddled with Tua and the Dolphins passing on Watson?

The trade deadline was early November and if this began to fester around Thanksgiving, it would tie into the entire situation with Watson.

After Flores was fired it has been widely reported that Flores was all in on Justin Herbert over Tua Tagovailoa and when that didn’t happen we saw a lot of changes in Miami. If we go back to last year, Flores was very quick to pull Tagovailoa in favor of Ryan Fitzpatrick. There has not been a time that Flores hasn’t pulled Tua to run a Jacoby Brisett short yardage play despite the fact that Tua is much faster.

Back to the 2021 season, the timeline suggests that Flores’ attitude change around Thanksgiving. That would align with the reports that Flores benched an otherwise healthy Tagovailoa against the Ravens. After Brisett went down with injury, he had no choice but to play Tua.

With the internal drama of Deshaun Watson in the rearview mirror the Dolphins went on a seven game winning streak and climbed back into the playoff race. That ended in Tennessee but the writing may have been on the wall long before that.

One of the biggest questions asked after that loss to the Titans that eliminated Miami was made to Mike Gesicki. Gesicki was asked if the Dolphins had a game plan for bad weather. Miami was coming off a short week after a Monday night win over the Saints. Gesicki simply said, “no”.

That raised a lot of eyebrows in social media and some mainstream media circles. Tua had one of his worst games as a pro and the Dolphins were heading home for good. This is the game that Tua and Flores exchanged words, Tua dropped the “eff” bomb and told Flores “you can’t talk to people that way”.

It may seem that wheels fell off after that loss but now, it seems as though the wheels were coming off long before and started shortly after the Dolphins failed to get Watson in Miami.

Was Flores so enamored with being right about his quarterback that he would basically sabotage his own football team by not talking with his assistants? Degrading his QB in front of others so much so that a player on the team, during a game whispered to Tua that it wasn’t him, “it’s the coaches”?

We will never know what might have changed or remained the same had Watson joined the Dolphins. The relationship strain between Flores and Grier may have started to boil over after the trade deadline as a result but it likely began to fester when Tagovailoa was drafted, something many believe was a request by Stephen Ross that Grier adhered to.

Regardless, it is over now and while things may still come out as this process moves along, the picture being painted by many outside of the Dolphins organization isn’t a pretty one and the parting of ways was almost destined long before Black Monday.

This was embedded in the article:




https://phinphanatic.com/2022/01/14...phins-coaching-search-doesnt-make-sense/

100%

j/c:

Sorry.

Did not know there was a thread on this topic.

I'll be good with either, but I thought Woods would be a decent DC too, so there's that. I'm also glad reasonable minds in the Browns organization saw the same things I did this year. Woods needed to go; he hurt us the past two seasons.

j/c...

As far as the Browns go, this will only apply to interviewing Sean Dasai of the known current candidates.

That is a lot to unpack.

The deal in Miami was toxic from owner on down.

Who knows the truth? I mean Flores was being told to throw games??

I was impressed by what Aditi had to say about Flores in Pittsburgh.

Maybe being a DC is the right prescription for him.

I am hopeful that KS will figure out who is the right guy.

Flores sure comes across as a guy that we will not have the secondary looking at each other wondering who is suppose to cover what guy or what space.

Being in South Florida, I see a lot of Miami games, and always thought Flores would have Miami in the running seasonally. He was almost there.
That defense was really good while he was there, and if not for Tua's slow progress and injury history they probably would have been contenders earlier.

J/C

Is anyone concerned about the potential distraction of Flores' lawsuit vs. the NFL? The Browns have already had distractions with the Watson situation. I wonder if they want to deal with any potential issues arising from Flores' suit. I totally get that the circumstances are night and day, but I'm simply speaking at the level of players having to answer questions about it and whether it would take away from the mental focus needed. Just throwing it out their for opinions as the suit seems to be in limbo at this point.

From what I can tell from the outside looking in, Flores is the injured party. Not the predator. So overall, it's totally different than the Watson thing. Watson is a sleeze,, Flores isn't. So yeah, I"d be fine with him from that standpoint. I see no distraction. There didn't appear to be on with Pittsburgh either.

Man, that's a pretty crazy article about Flores. Not sure what to think right now.

rarely do they change their scheme...they interview and must believe in their scheme - I cannot see us hiring a 3-4 guy and expect them to change...then again we are the Browns...smh

I would like a 4-3 guy although I do like the 3-4, we are missing very key personnel specifically NT among others. But most important is that our best...by far our best talent on our defense is Garrett. Although I like to see him standing up and moving around he would be a liability dropping back in coverage. Berry did us a disservice as the key personnel for a 4-3 is the DL and he did not attend to that for us. He HAD GARRETT given to him and he just went and got BODIES not talent to play that DL it makes me wonder if he really understands the needs of football. Now in the 3-4 the key personnel are the LBs. 2 sideline to sideline ILB and two Pass rushing monsters on the outside. Ok say we make the change...let us then draft the KEY Personnel - Oh wait we don't have first round picks nor do we have a boat load of money to buy the talent needed in the change of concept.

jmho So I know Flores is the flavor of the month but it would be a mistake.

I asked a question about our Base defense on the Joe Woods thread and Milk supplied the following article. It's definitely worth the read.


https://www.footballoutsiders.com/s...personnel-cowboys-and-bills-abandon-base

Browns DC candidate Jerod Mayo possesses the great leadership skills this splintered defense needs
Updated: Jan. 10, 2023, 5:53 p.m.|Published: Jan. 10, 2023, 4:49 p.m.

By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Browns defensive coordinator candidate Jerod Mayo, the Patriots linebackers coach who will interview for the job here soon, is known for the great leadership skills and inner discipline that this beleaguered defense needs.

There’s no shortage of talent on the Browns’ defense, but the players didn’t mesh well in 2022, and need an overhaul. One of their star players, Jadeveon Clowney, was disgruntled most of the season, which permeated the team. Defensive backs clashed early over blown coverages, and players screamed at each in the locker room following the 23-20 loss in Baltimore.

At least five defenders were benched for all or parts of games for disciplinary reasons, and players like rookie defensive tackle Perrion Winfrey had maturity issues that were a distraction.

While the Browns retool the defense in 2023 to find the right mix of talent, leadership and fire, they could use a great leader at the coordinator position to fix the broken unit. Mayo, who’s earned the highest praise from Patriots coach Bill Belichick over the years, is known for unifying players both as an eight-year linebacker for the Patriots from 2008-15 and as a four-year linebackers coach there from 2019 to present.

“I think he’s as well-respected as any player in the locker room and I’d say one of the best overall team leaders, players and kind of a glue chemistry guy that I’ve been around,” Belichick said of Mayo in 2014. “He means a lot to our team. I’d say he’s really the guy that the team probably revolves around more than any other player.

“Not that there aren’t other players that are instrumental in that, but I think he touches pretty much everybody, not just the defensive players but all the guys — not just the older guys, but the younger guys. Even when he was captain in his second year, he had a relationship with the older guys.”

The No. 10 overall pick of the Patriots out of Tennessee in 2008, Mayo earned near-unanimous NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year honors and went on to be voted a team captain of the star-studded roster in only his second season, holding the post for seven years until he retired.

“So, I walked into this locker room, right? All right, rookie of the year, Tom Brady’s in there, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Mike Vrabel, Junior Seau,” Mayo said on the World Reimagined podcast. “These are Hall of Fame caliber players, right? And they’re older. And so, when I say older, they’re 28, 29, 30. Tedy Bruschi, Bruschi is 33, 34, or something like that.”

Mayo, 36, was willing to do the little things to help the team, and said his teammates knew he cared about them more than he cared about himself.

“Part of the grunt work is opening up the divider in the rooms or closing the divider, stupid little things like that, carrying the helmets inside of the veteran players,” he said. “But also, it’s to go knock on coach Belichick’s door and say, “Coach, hey, we’re a little tired today. Can we get out of pads?” And so, everyone was scared to go knock on that door, right? So who do they send in there? They sent me in there.”

Mayo, who possesses the same quick wit and self-deprecating humor that quickly endeared Jacoby Brissett to his new Browns teammates this season, learned at an early age from his mom that the answer is always no if you don’t ask.

“I was like, ‘Well, if I go in there and Bill wants to fight me, I think I could take him,’” Mayo said. “The guy is 65 years old at the time, so I’m like, ‘I can take him.’”

He recalled that Belichick would be in his office two-finger typing, but that “now he can type with all of his fingers. And I’ll say, ‘Coach, hey, the guys are tired.’ This is back in the day when they could do two a day, too, right? So, I said, ‘The guys are tired, can we just get out of the pads today?’ And I’ll say, seven times out of 10, he’ll be like, ‘Get out of here, just go back in there and tell them to get ready for practice.’”

But Mayo looked at the bright side.

“I was batting 300. It was those times where I would come back to the locker room and like, ‘Guys, coach said, we’re not in full pads today.’ And it was like an eruption. Literally they would pick me up, throw me on their shoulders, like, ‘Yeah, let’s go, let’s go.’”

His willingness to step into the lion’s den showed his teammates more than he could ever tell them.

“I think the guys understood, I have no pride here,” he said. “I have nothing to lose. I’m going to go in here and fight for you, guys. And that’s how it started, right? The guys knew I cared about them. And I think, first and foremost, I think, that’s what a leader has to be able to do.”

A tireless film studier from back to his Tennessee days, Mayo was like another coach on the field and in the meeting rooms, much like middle linebacker Anthony Walker Jr. has been for the Browns.

“I thought I was a smart football player,” former Patriots linebacker Dont’a Hightower, whom Mayo hopes to coax into coaching someday, said before the 2015 playoffs. “But, I mean, that dude could be a defensive coordinator right now.”

Having spent his entire career learning the Patriot Way under Belichick, he understands the importance of culture to success. But as he said on the podcast, “Changing team culture is like trying to turn the Titanic.”

He also believes that “motivation is fleeting” but that internal discipline endures.

“Motivation, that’s the initial, ‘All right, New Year’s Eve, boom, I’m motivated to get into the gym the next day,’” he said on the podcast. “Discipline is ‘All right, it’s March 1, and I’m still at the gym.’”

He’s such an old soul that former Patriots linebacker Gary Guyton joked, “(Mayo) was born with facial hair. Only guy I know that was born with facial hair.”

Mayo’s uncanny ability to lead players and his excellent coaching prowess have earned him three head coaching interviews over the past two seasons; with the Eagles in 2021, and with the Broncos and Raiders before last season. In fact, he believes he’s ready to make the leap from position coach to head coach like others have done, including fellow former Patriots assistant Brian Flores, another current Browns defensive coordinator candidate.

“That’s never changed. I think I’m ready to be a head coach in the league,” Mayo said last month. “But I have to say this too, right now my focus is being here with the Patriots. But that definitely is still the goal.”

With his impeccable resume and stellar people skills, he’ll likely have no shortage of opportunities in this hiring cycle.

But he checks off the “great leadership” box the Browns sorely need.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...ntered-defense-needs-mary-kay-cabot.html

Oh, there's more, but I'll feel like I'm spamming.

I like Flores, and I'm not going to pretend to be able to decode that show that took place down south, but I'm not sure our guys would see him as a fit. There's a good chance they would be intimidated by him. And although I'm not really sure if that's more a reflection on them than him; I'm afraid they may be worried that would threaten their cozy notion of alignment (I mean that in the nicest way lol).

On one hand, that may be exactly what they need... on the other, it could be a disaster if things don't go well out of the gate. I don't think they're willing to flip that coin.

Information is not spamming, in my opinion.

As far as the hands go, I personally think the D needs a tougher minded coach. Our guys seem entitled on that side of the ball. Too much talking and not enough results. We need more guys who are mentally and emotionally tough. Not sure if that fits in w/what our FO wants.

What I like is a defense that plays downhill. Be aggressive and attack the offense rather than sit back and react. Force the offense to make mistakes rather than hold as long as you can and hope they make their own mistakes.


I feel like we have had a passive defense for more years rhan not the past decade.


For clrity, this doesn't necessarily mean frequently blitzing. Though I do like smart blitzing and feel we have som linebackers and defensive backs that are great blitzers that we severely underutilized in that role.

Sorry Referee 3, I've been doing that too much lately -- I'll clean it up.

So you're telling me Ivy League grad, Dr. Sean Desai, is going to be the Browns new DC!

This quote is something I completely believe.

He also believes that “motivation is fleeting” but that internal discipline endures.

Amen to that. I'm with you 100%. I've said as much -- passionately. I think Flores would may be pushing the envelope too far (their opinion, not mine). If he is clear in his intentions to come here and bring out the best in our defense, yet unapologetic for his style, I sign on the dotted line. If he seems to want us to court him, is wrapped up in how much power he would have, seems to be wavering in his true intentions... don't let the door hit you.

But man, we really need someone that will throw a clipboard, raise his voice and raise some eyebrows among the player ranks.

Could you imagine the narrative in the media and amongst the fans?? lol

LOL

In for a penny in for a pound? I mean if you've already made enemies out of the other owners what difference does it make at this point?

So to sum it up, we have a bunch of wussies on that side of the ball.

Between the guys that we have been reportedly interested in only Schwartz and Desai have DC experience and Desai's experience consists of 1 year as DC with Chicago in 2021 where they were 6th in yds given up but 22nd in points given up.

That would be a plausible scenario if they didn't look like crap in some games and looked great in others. That's where I see a D that's talented enough to play great but for some reason they're not consistent.

As I've said before, it's hard for me to fathom that a defense knows how to play great some weeks then forget how to play the game other weeks. That indicates to me that it's not the talent level of those players as much as it's been an issue with them not being coached properly. Sure the Browns need help on the defensive side of the ball. The interior of the DL is insufficient and the depth of talent at LB could use upgrading. There aren't any teams that don't have some weaknesses. But when you see units like the secondary shut teams down some weeks and look lost other weeks, I don't think the problem is with the personnel.

Our problem other than the hole at DT is coaching and scheme. When your starting Safties are both SS in the box type players yet play more snaps at FS there is a problem.

That DT 'hole' seemed to get smaller once Winfrey got his head on straight and saw the field more. Hopefully, this is trend.

I'll still never be able to unhear his intro press call w/ Cleveland media. Ugh.

Questions for anyone who knows....

I realize that Flores did not have the DC title in NE, but wasn't he actually the DC? It's how he got the Dolphin gig, right? Or, am I mistaken?

Correct, he took over after Matt Patricia left, but was not given the title DC.

IIRC, Patricia is the only one to ever be given the title DC in the Belichick era.

If he was a DC it would have only been in 2018 when he was listed as the LB coach because before that they had Matt Patricia as the DC.

In 2018 the NE defense finished 21st in yds given up but 7th in points given up.

Mostly fluff, but a nice "getting to know" Jerod Mayo...


Browns DC candidate Jerod Mayo possesses the great leadership skills this splintered defense needs: Mary Kay Cabot

Updated: Jan. 10, 2023, 5:53 p.m.


By Mary Kay Cabot, cleveland.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio — Browns defensive coordinator candidate Jerod Mayo, the Patriots linebackers coach who will interview for the job here soon, is known for the great leadership skills and inner discipline that this beleaguered defense needs.

There’s no shortage of talent on the Browns’ defense, but the players didn’t mesh well in 2022, and need an overhaul. One of their star players, Jadeveon Clowney, was disgruntled most of the season, which permeated the team. Defensive backs clashed early over blown coverages, and players screamed at each in the locker room following the 23-20 loss in Baltimore.

At least five defenders were benched for all or parts of games for disciplinary reasons, and players like rookie defensive tackle Perrion Winfrey had maturity issues that were a distraction.

While the Browns retool the defense in 2023 to find the right mix of talent, leadership and fire, they could use a great leader at the coordinator position to fix the broken unit. Mayo, who’s earned the highest praise from Patriots coach Bill Belichick over the years, is known for unifying players both as an eight-year linebacker for the Patriots from 2008-15 and as a four-year linebackers coach there from 2019 to present.

“I think he’s as well-respected as any player in the locker room and I’d say one of the best overall team leaders, players and kind of a glue chemistry guy that I’ve been around,” Belichick said of Mayo in 2014. “He means a lot to our team. I’d say he’s really the guy that the team probably revolves around more than any other player.

“Not that there aren’t other players that are instrumental in that, but I think he touches pretty much everybody, not just the defensive players but all the guys — not just the older guys, but the younger guys. Even when he was captain in his second year, he had a relationship with the older guys.”

The No. 10 overall pick of the Patriots out of Tennessee in 2008, Mayo earned near-unanimous NFL Defensive Rookie of the Year honors and went on to be voted a team captain of the star-studded roster in only his second season, holding the post for seven years until he retired.

“So, I walked into this locker room, right? All right, rookie of the year, Tom Brady’s in there, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Mike Vrabel, Junior Seau,” Mayo said on the World Reimagined podcast. “These are Hall of Fame caliber players, right? And they’re older. And so, when I say older, they’re 28, 29, 30. Tedy Bruschi, Bruschi is 33, 34, or something like that.”

Mayo, 36, was willing to do the little things to help the team, and said his teammates knew he cared about them more than he cared about himself.

“Part of the grunt work is opening up the divider in the rooms or closing the divider, stupid little things like that, carrying the helmets inside of the veteran players,” he said. “But also, it’s to go knock on coach Belichick’s door and say, “Coach, hey, we’re a little tired today. Can we get out of pads?” And so, everyone was scared to go knock on that door, right? So who do they send in there? They sent me in there.”

Mayo, who possesses the same quick wit and self-deprecating humor that quickly endeared Jacoby Brissett to his new Browns teammates this season, learned at an early age from his mom that the answer is always no if you don’t ask.

“I was like, ‘Well, if I go in there and Bill wants to fight me, I think I could take him,’” Mayo said. “The guy is 65 years old at the time, so I’m like, ‘I can take him.’”

He recalled that Belichick would be in his office two-finger typing, but that “now he can type with all of his fingers. And I’ll say, ‘Coach, hey, the guys are tired.’ This is back in the day when they could do two a day, too, right? So, I said, ‘The guys are tired, can we just get out of the pads today?’ And I’ll say, seven times out of 10, he’ll be like, ‘Get out of here, just go back in there and tell them to get ready for practice.’”

But Mayo looked at the bright side.

“I was batting 300. It was those times where I would come back to the locker room and like, ‘Guys, coach said, we’re not in full pads today.’ And it was like an eruption. Literally they would pick me up, throw me on their shoulders, like, ‘Yeah, let’s go, let’s go.’”

His willingness to step into the lion’s den showed his teammates more than he could ever tell them.

“I think the guys understood, I have no pride here,” he said. “I have nothing to lose. I’m going to go in here and fight for you, guys. And that’s how it started, right? The guys knew I cared about them. And I think, first and foremost, I think, that’s what a leader has to be able to do.”

A tireless film studier from back to his Tennessee days, Mayo was like another coach on the field and in the meeting rooms, much like middle linebacker Anthony Walker Jr. has been for the Browns.

“I thought I was a smart football player,” former Patriots linebacker Dont’a Hightower, whom Mayo hopes to coax into coaching someday, said before the 2015 playoffs. “But, I mean, that dude could be a defensive coordinator right now.”

Having spent his entire career learning the Patriot Way under Belichick, he understands the importance of culture to success. But as he said on the podcast, “Changing team culture is like trying to turn the Titanic.”


He also believes that “motivation is fleeting” but that internal discipline endures.

“Motivation, that’s the initial, ‘All right, New Year’s Eve, boom, I’m motivated to get into the gym the next day,’” he said on the podcast. “Discipline is ‘All right, it’s March 1, and I’m still at the gym.’”

He’s such an old soul that former Patriots linebacker Gary Guyton joked, “(Mayo) was born with facial hair. Only guy I know that was born with facial hair.”

Mayo’s uncanny ability to lead players and his excellent coaching prowess have earned him three head coaching interviews over the past two seasons; with the Eagles in 2021, and with the Broncos and Raiders before last season. In fact, he believes he’s ready to make the leap from position coach to head coach like others have done, including fellow former Patriots assistant Brian Flores, another current Browns defensive coordinator candidate.

“That’s never changed. I think I’m ready to be a head coach in the league,” Mayo said last month. “But I have to say this too, right now my focus is being here with the Patriots. But that definitely is still the goal.”

With his impeccable resume and stellar people skills, he’ll likely have no shortage of opportunities in this hiring cycle.

But he checks off the “great leadership” box the Browns sorely need.


https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...ntered-defense-needs-mary-kay-cabot.html

I think mentally they are wimps. Some not so much from a physical standpoint.

So sometimes they look like mental wimps and sometimes they don't?

That's my guy - Jerrod Mayonnaise, please.

That is full time. Sometimes they play hard, others not.

Agree largely with both posts - I heard a great interview with Jim Donovan on Tuesday (850 AM) - he must have talked for nearly 40 minutes and was surprisingly candid. One of the things he talked about was how Depo and Berry have said in the past about wanting to do things differently and buck trends - and he talked specifically about the defense and the DECISION to go with smaller lighter DL and LB to gain speed and athleticism. He said that clearly when Taki and Ragland cvame in and played the MLB position and the D was much stouter against the run, it's no big surprise because those two guys are bigger and more traditional MLB size.... So whether it was scheme or personnel or a little bit of both - Donovan painted a picture that it was clearly a decision by the front office to go smaller/faster and that they need to reflect that they got that decision wrong.

Hopefully whoever the new DC is - they are strong enough to demand the player type that makes their D scheme work efficiently AND that they help make the defense meaner and nastier (while still disciplined). I honestly think Flores or Schwartz would turn Garrett into the real beast he has the physical tools to be... Donovan alluded to that as well talking about how TJ Watt impacts every play with his attitude and the way he plays, the implication that we don't get that same impact our of MG.

jc..

Wonder who is interviewing the candidates for the Browns..?

I'm sure that DC candidates will have their own questions for those doing the interviewing for the Browns.

j/c...

FWIW, this is from Albert Breer in the MMQB...

From Tyler Johnson (@T_johnson_TJ): Who do you believe the #Browns will hire as defensive coordinator?

Tyler, I really like their candidates, and I do think it’s indicative, to some degree, of ex-Lions GM Bob Quinn’s growing influence in the organization—three of the four guys interviewing were raised in the business by Bill Belichick, just like Quinn. The one who doesn’t have such ties is Seattle assistant Sean Desai, who is friendly with Kevin Stefanski, is a favorite of the Browns analytics team, and competed against the Browns coach for years in the NFC North.

If I had to peg a favorite right now, I’d probably go with Pittsburgh senior defensive assistant-linebackers coach Brian Flores, and I have heard owner Jimmy Haslam is a fan of his. Patriots linebackers coach Jerod Mayo has merit, too, in that there have been a lot of coordinator-type functions to his job with the Patriots—he runs meetings and helps design the defense and gameplans—and he could be a culture-changer for a unit that, in an honest moment, Browns people would tell you they need on defense.

Conversely, going with Jim Schwartz (whose connection to Belichick is actually from Cleveland) would represent two different things. The first would be scheme familiarity—what he would presumably bring is a lot closer to the Pete Carroll style of defense that Joe Woods ran the past three years in Cleveland. The second is a connection to GM Andrew Berry, from the time the two were together in Philadelphia.

So, again, I’d say Flores is probably the one, with the added benefit of such a hire kicking the legs out from underneath a division rival. We’ll see what happens.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2023/01/11/albert-breer-mailbag-coaching-carousel-sean-payton-patriots

*Note: Bob Quinn is the Browns Senior Personnel/Coaching Executive

Mayo's biggest negative is his lack of experience coaching...being the NE LBer coach since 2019.

He might make a good Assistant DC, gaining experience under a veteran coach like Schwartz for example.

are you sure about that? Wasn't Romeo Crennal given the title DC? I could be totally wrong of course!

IMO, the above comments boil down to the Browns hiring the candidate who is the best connected to someone on the inside the Browns organization.

That is likely the worst way to hire a DC, imo..!

A little background information related to the political connections that might influence the DC selection..

When referencing size at any position.

When it is your turn to draft. Or, you are looking at an impact player in FA or in trade.

Aaron Donald is 6'1" 285. Ray Lewis 6'1" 240 at best.

You don't often get the ideal size choice.

You have to select the "player."

Brees was no physical specimen. He was not big, not fast, and did not have a great arm.

He was just a great quarterback.

Production is all.

Never seen as a good thing.

bone...how do some teams manage to scoop up these "hidden gems" in the draft..?

I can tell folks how some franchises often FAIL to find these players who don't quite fit the ideal specification...you don't find these special players by sitting on your butt in your office researching on a computer.

Those teams that are willing to hire and use qualified, experienced scouts who know they must travel and meet and watch these players practice and play.

Teams can be lazy and research from their offices...or they can attempt to get out and find out what makes a player perform.

You can't attempt to judge DESIRE AND DETERMINATION ... no way to measure what is inside a player that makes him outperform others who might be more gifted physically.

Good scouts do the work..trying to find out what is inside a player's skull and the size of his heart..!

Definitely don't disagree - Donovan's point that he believed that Berry and the FO had made a conscious decision to buck a trend and target and draft/acquire smaller and faster DT's and LBs than traditionally thought of as optimum for those roles. It was a comment and opinion on what the FO had decided to do - and how Ragland and Taki had stepped in thru injury and sort of exposed an error with the way they were thinking. I'm paraphrasing but anyone with a land on demand account can listen to the interview here:

https://thelandondemand.com/podcasts/Interviews/2023/jan/10/11023-rbs-jim-donovan/

Completely understand your point.

It was clear in the scheme. They wanted length and speed. 4-2-5 was based upon coverage and plenty of zone.

IMO the defense was very predictable and plain.

Another way too is talking to the kids College coach. I don't know anyone more important and knowledgeable to give important and pertinent info on a player.

DISCIPLINE, it is what is needed.

j/c:

I agree that the Browns went to a lighter, faster, more agile players on defense. I don't think they really were bucking a trend, though. I think that was--and still is--the trend. I suppose it bucked a ton if Donovan meant from years gone by when LBers were big and strong.

This is an article all the way back from 2016 about how lighter linebackers were becoming the norm and they talk quite a bit about our new LBer, Deion Jones. As I researched the 4-2-5, I learned that the teams that run that defense do have one space-eating NT type to play offset of the center. Here is the article about lighter LBers.


https://www.nola.com/sports/saints/article_d1f7c701-fbcb-5b2d-bde6-4337e16063c5.html

Just like the Browns Head Coach list from the same timeframe...which one of those DCs went onto greatness after the Browns? Garbage in. Garbage out.

If Schwartz can run the 4-3, I want him.

I don't think it says that. I think it simply states connections between the candidates and the Browns.

You are always talking about NFL experience. You mentioned Mayo's lack of experience. In a job where coaches usually bounce around 3-4-5-6 times in their career, not to mention interactions with other players, scouts, coaches, and FO types it hard not to have connections. The NFL is all about connections. Life for that matter is about connections.

It makes perfect sense to point out the various connections. I am sure that even you haven't lived in a vacuum and are void of friendships and connections.

I think all college coaches are sought out. That said, it depends on the coach and the relationship with the guy. He wants his players drafted as much as the player wants to be drafted. All coaches want to be able to point out to recruits that his school can also lead to the NFL.

Except for the top level players, it's hard to take a deep dive in to the kid. It's not like you can have private detectives digging in to maybe 200 draftable players. Teams just don't have the resources or time to do that. Especially considering that teams don't even have an idea on which 2-3 players they might be able to draft until maybe 20 minutes before they are on the clock.

The gap between who you think you might be able to draft and who you actually can grows wider the further in to the draft a team gets.

You first saw this in the college game where team speed was evident. The pro's went that direction as the college game went that direction. They really had no choice. College is where innovation happens.

More than a few years back I talked about how the QB position was changing and O was going to change. Well, here we are. A more wide open, spread O with QB's who run. College D's had to adjust to that, now pro D's are trying to adjust. Teams need speed, and 250 backers don't provide that. You see more and more 220 lb backers. The pros are even having a hard time finding those type of backer because they are fewer and fewer to be found. Colleges don't have then anymore.

It might come down to whom ever Jimmy likes best...better hope Haslam gets this right.

I agree it has been a trend.

They want coverage ability. LB's that can play three downs.

IMO Wood's scheme was not the issue. It was his inability to coach the scheme.

My preference is a different defense.

Agreed. Why hire a person who doesn't believe in your mission statement?

Smaller, faster more agile LBers...look at what that scheme did for the Browns defense...

Total Rush yds (2295) .....25th
Yards per/carry (4.7) ......25th
Rushing TDs (22)............29th
1st downs by rush (129)..26th

When we look at the areas of weakness for the Browns run defense...the middle, where run stopping LBers operate and the flat area, from the end to the sidelines where a 2 LB set has trouble defending.

Not only did the Browns smaller, faster scheme fail to stop the run, but the rest of the AFC North uses 240 to 250 pound LBers and a nose tackle and all of those teams Ravens, Bengals and Steelers..rank near the top in the NFL at stopping the run.

If that doesn't illustrate A FAILED DEFENSIVE CONCEPT..I don't know what does.

In the AFC/North, the winning teams do not play college size LBers..!

You are well w/in your rights to trash every single move the Browns make. However, it is NOT just a Browns thing. The entire league is doing the same thing. I don't think it is too hard to figure out why teams have turned toward smaller, faster, more agile LBers. The league has become a passing league. You need those types of LBers in today's game. To not follow the league trend would have been ignorant.

The league is cyclical and there were a few signs that teams are going to go more to a power game on offense to exploit the league-wide tendency to have lighter LBers, so things may change once again. Some people adapt and evolve w/the times. Others get stuck in the past and are left behind.

Every position has ideal physical profiles of height, weight and speed.

Physical dimensions are useful and can be important. Every NFL team places a premium on speed especially for certain positions.

The Combine is about physicals, dimensions, and athletic abilities. Analytics can be useful as tool to look at how all these physical attributes can translate to playing.

However, you can not replace eyes, and boots on the ground. In the end football is a game. Some guys are just good football players.

Take receivers for example. Everybody wants to know how fast is he. Sure it is important. You can not be a snail.

But some guys just know to get open and catch the ball. Jerry Rice and Larry Fitzgerald were not blazzers.

Martin Emerson did not test fast. But that young man is a player. His head is the game. He competes on every play.

Good scouts are super valuable. Analytics and study is a tool. But there are intangibles that determine attitude, instincts, and effort.

vers..lets not make this into some make believe contest...I put the figures in front of you and the rest and I ask...do the Browns expect to win the AFC North playing a failed defensive concept that relies on "little, quick, tweeners"..?

Or do the Browns look at what wins in the NFL and especially what wins in the AFC North and realize that the Browns first hurdle is winning or qualifying for a WC position. The rest of the teams in the AFC North GET IT DEFENSIVELY, and I invite you to look at their LB personnel and compare them to the Browns LB personnel.

This trend you speak of..small, quick, fast LBers might work at the college level...but the AFC North is not like playing college ball. Also, this so called 'trend'...it does not translate into a winning scheme in the AFC North.

Face reality..the Browns win nothing if they can't win the AFC North or qualify for a WC birth.

Seems like it would be a good time to re-post (can no longer quote) your post from a couple months ago... and this gem...


Re: Browns News & Notes cont.
Versatile Dog#198661011/16/22 11:22 AM


I could not find anywhere else to put this, so I put here because we run the ball a lot. A lot of football shows are filled w/fluff, but this was actually an educational and enlightening discussion on the continued evolution of NFL offenses and defenses. No hot takes. No controversy. Just football talk w/good data to back up their claims.





Some stats (from mid-November, not sure how much they've changed)

League wide average per reception ~ 11.0 Lowest since 1933

League wide average per rushing attempt ~ 4.5 Highest in NFL history

League wide scoring average 21.6 points ~ Lowest since 2008


Marcus Spears and Mina Kimes (pigskin genius) do a great job explaining it all. The short of it all is this: in a race to find more speed and athletic players at every level of the defense, most of these players have become more long and rangy; less girth, size and brawn. Space-eaters are gone, defensive linemen are 30-50lbs lighter. These dudes are not built to be punched in the face thirty times per game.

bone...that is why I want smart, instinctive LBers in the range of 240 to 250 lbs to stop the run, kind of like the Ravens, Steelers and Bengals have.

If this trend smaller, faster more agile LBers is a winning formula...why aren't the other AFC North teams using the same defense..?

I want a LB who fast enough, strong enough and tough enough to play the LBer position in the middle of the Browns defense. Someone who can take on blockers and plug holes.

Agreed, that is why I respectfully pointed out that the league has done the same thing the Browns have.

Thanks. I was thinking about that when I posted the comments about the league being cyclical.

I have no idea what Donovan's inside knowledge of the Browns FO is. . . but just as a point of clarification, his comments about bucking trends and doing things differently was not in relation to smaller LB's that are faster and sideline to sideline / every down players. It was in relation to their entire approach to team building - and regards the Defense this year, the inference was both DL and LB being small and athletic - and this board seems to be focusing entirely on the LB position and justifying that. It was talked about a lot this year - for a 4-2-5 it was suggested you NEED big DT's to make it work - Donovan's comments implied smaller athletic DT's was a decision the FO took .... and the implication was this was coaches and Berry acting together on the same page. . . . and to add one more layer - Donovan's comments were definitely and unequivocally insinuating or stating the FO got it WRONG and needed to own/accept that maybe bucking every trend isn't the best thing to do and maybe things done 'traditionally' in the NFL are done so because they work.

I understand your point for both DT and LB's.

IMO it is way more than size though. An old cliche is:

"A good big man will always beat a good little man."

Maybe for some things and as a general rule. However, football is a game.

I buy into doing your job. Knowing your opponent and ways you can beat him. Playing as a unit.

If a large linebacker plays the run well but struggles in coverage. He can not play three downs in the NFL.

If a DT is undersized the question is can he do his job in your defensive scheme. Aaron Donald is under 300 lbs.

Scheme fit is important. Perrion Winfrey is not NT. He is 3 tech guy.

The defensive failure in the 2022 season was stopping run. The emphasis of the Browns DL was penetration and pass rush. The failure of Berry, Woods, and KS was first the DT rotation itself. Elliott, Bryan, Togiai, Winfrey inexperienced and not good to begin with. There size was below average but so was there skill level. In fact they stunk.

Myself I hated the scheme as well. Not that it was a 4-2-5 base defense but the way they played it. I believe many players were missed used.

First the DT rotation lacked talent. You can not expect results when you are trying to develop four young players with questionable skills to begin with.

That is a failure on Berry's part. One stud or two vets at least. Not four beginners with poor skill.

I agree with this opinion and IMHO further confirms that Stefanski had a serious hand in the decision-making process of the players used to man this defense. Just like many posters on this forum though, taking accountability and owning up to the gross mistake that has occurred now over 2 consecutive seasons has produced crickets coming out of Berea and the blame game continues with Woods being the fall guy this time. Remember, the Browns had the worst DT's in the entire NFL in 2021 and they one upped it in 2022 by bringing in guys who were worse than the previous year. Leadership is so lacking that it's comical.

So, now the question becomes "what now?" Fans, analysts, and broadcasters have all seen the weakness of the interior defense, but has the Browns hierarchy seen it? We just saw the DC fired for the failure to perform with inferior players. Now they are looking for a new DC but have they seen the problem with the type of player selected? Is a new DC going to be expected to come in and run the same type of defensive scheme with just a new mix of players? IMHO, the real concern is that the Browns had the worst interior defense in the entire league in 2021. The Browns made zero attempt to change the type of player (small and athletic) in the 2021 off season, they just doubled down with their team building approach with different even less effective players. Now a year later, the Browns again have the worse defensive interior in the NFL, fired the DC, accepted no accountability, and are in the process of hiring a new DC. The question nobody has an answer for: are the Browns going to alter their defense to a more traditional concept of player/team building or is Berry and Stefanski ready to triple down their approach to building the defense? I'm leaning toward triple down and that's a huge problem!

This doesn't prove anything, it's just off-season jibber-jabber. Berry said the same BS last year. Actions speak louder than just words.

But, no one has an answer for that question. LOL

Well, it's obvious you certainly don't so just keep spreading your hatred.

That's not an answer! That's just jibber-jabber!!

This may be on here somewhere, but back to real news rather than fake news about Berry and Stefanski...

Talking about player personnel decisions and how the team performed - areas directly under control of Berry and Stefanski, who most would want to be held accountable - not allowed.

What do you mean...this couldn't possibly become an awkward dynamic in Berea where nothing unusual ever happens!






On that note, sign me up for Flores or Schwartz.

Yes - at this point if its not one of these two I will be very disappointed.

While on the surface this sounds great I have ever rarely heard a college coach not pimp his players no matter what.

Interesting...

Mayo has made it pretty clear that he feels that he can make the jump... and that is his wish.

I think a lot of it has to do with scheme. But this isn't as complicated as you're making it sound. Most of the best teams in the NFL have very good passing QB's. Those who don't have one want one. Their offenses are predicated on using the passing game to open up the run game. They use multiple WR sets. As such as the game has changed so has the abilities you are looking for in your LB'ers. The teams you will have to beat if you ever want to advance in the playoffs win a SB will require you to have LB'ers who are fast and agile enough to compete in coverage. Now I do understand that you need some physical LB'ers to use in obvious running downs.

But are running downs as obvious as they used to be? I don't think so. Some people consider it foolish to pass on third and 3 or 4. But I believe that people who say that underestimate the power of surprise in play calling. Yes, with the evolution of the game so comes the evolution in what you need the most at the LB'er position.

Wouldn't surprise me to see Mayo stay with Pats until an HC gig opens up.

While at the same time this situation may force the Pats to give him the title of DC in order to keep him. Being a named NFL DC would only further the likelihood he would get HC'ing offers moving forward.

Once again a thread turns to ****.

Try and have a decent discussion and wham a bunch of BS starts.

Maybe... and BTW, I agree with Milk, and tend to think he's staying in New England.

I don't think the Pats want to risk any friction with Steve Belichick, and I think Bill likes the ambiguity of having no coordinators named.

I'd expect a new title like "associate head coach". It would serve to show that the Patriots have real respect for his role, and probably start rumblings that he's being groomed to take Bill's job. That would create more of a likelihood he would be interviewed for HC gig next year, if it doesn't happen this year.

I don't really disagree with your premise here. But if what your doing is to avoid friction with Steve Belichick, wouldn't advancing Mayo to the associate HC position which elevates Mayo to an even higher position than the DC accomplish the same thing?

Keep reading. It turned around.

This article provides an in depth look at what to expect from Flores:

Looking at Flores' coverage preferences

The Browns ran a great deal of two-high looks in Cover-4 coverage, mixing in single-high Cover-3 and Cover-1 looks. If the Browns look to bring in Brian Flores, they will still have their Cover-1 looks in man, but the uptick in man coverage overall will skyrocket. Flores is not afraid to rotate down, give Cover-0 pre-snap looks, and risk his backend support for front-end pressure.

The Browns have the cornerbacks to man up with anyone, and even Grant Delpit can hand with running backs and the occasional tight end. However, if the Browns are going to start gunning downhill with little support over the top, a true free safety who can get depth and cover range will be a massive, massive priority.

Over the span of his last two years with the Dolphins, they gave up a passer rating of under 40 when they dropped into Cover-0 and Cover-1.


Flores is not afraid to bring the heat

Flores is among the most aggressive defensive coordinators in the league when it comes to bringing the heat. In his last seasons in Miami, Flores ranked second in both blitz totals and blitz rates as he has no fear in reconciling the risks that accompany sending extra bodies at the quarterback.

He loves sending defensive backs out zero and one looks, routinely confusing quarterbacks pre-snap before dropping pressure off or sending more. Going from Joe Woods, who was quite gunshy at bringing pressure, to Flores would be a night-and-day difference for the Browns should they hire Flores.

What Brian Flores prefers to show up front

The Browns would make a shift from a 4-3 defense to a 3-4 defense, but this is the smallest change. For the most part, the NFL is dominated by sub-packages, so base defense philosophy is microscopic despite the larger outcry and deal it is made out to be on the local media level.

The bigger shift, however, is in the fronts Flores decides to use as the Browns would shift to a tite look upfront rather than deploying a one-tech and three-tech. Perrion Winfrey and maybe an occasional look at Taven Bryan (should they re-sign him) fit this mold, however, that is where the list ends for defensive tackles currently on the roster. A true run-stuffing nose tackle will be needed.

Myles Garrett and Alex Wright would give the Browns a massive set of edge setters against the run, however, in base looks. Both have the ability to kick in and stick their hand in the ground as well as Flores could look to get exotic upfront and bring on pass rush specific guys off the edge.

What changes need made to defensive personnel for the Browns?

A shift to an aggressive Cover-0 and Cover-1 preference that Flores loves will not make a big difference to the cornerback room as Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome II are twitchy and sticky enough to hang in the hip pocket of any wide receiver in the NFL.

The biggest question mark in this defensive scheme shift, however, would be rookie cornerback Martin Emerson Jr. While he had a great deal of success in his first season, he is best suited in a Cover-3 or in backside poach looks where he has a bracket over the top. He does not move as well as the other two given his longer, less fluid frame.

Watching how Flores deployed Jevon Holland in Miami, there is an excellent blueprint for the success that an emerging Grant Delpit could have in Cleveland in this scheme. A true centerfielder at free safety that the Browns currently lack is a massive need from this group, however.

Upfront, using a 3-4 base would give the Browns a great deal of flexibility up front. The Browns need a big run stuffer in their defensive trenches one way or the other, so a shift to a tite front does not impact that need. If anything, allowing Myles Garrett the luxury to put his hand in the ground in three-technique, 4i, or five-technique looks in addition to standing up off the edge gives the Browns a great deal of versatility.

This plays into the usage of the massive Alex Wright as well, who kicked inside with a great deal of frequency as well. If the Browns kick Garrett or Wright in on sub-packages as well, they can also add speed rushers off the edge to bring onto the field to really get pressure up front.

Adding a true free safety, some sub-package speed off the edge, and an overhaul at defensive tackle will be needed in 2023 if the Browns hire Flores (or Jerod Mayo for that matter)

Final thoughts on Brian Flores and his fit with the Browns

Flores will bring a small shift to base packages, from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and shift to a title front upfront. These changes, however, are the most minimal of them all. The bigger shift will come in coverage and blitz philosophy where the Browns would get much more aggressive in Cover-0 looks and exotic blitzes and pre-snap disguises.

The hiring of Flores would signify a massive shift in defensive identity for the Browns. The hire at defensive coordinator will say a ton about who the Browns want to be defensively. If they hire a guy like Schwartz or Sean Desai, it signifies they are fine with the overall scheme but are seeking more creativity in how it is executed.

Hiring Flores, however, means the leadership in Cleveland wants a culture shock to the system. It signifies they no longer want to operate their defense from the back end first, but will prioritize what happens up front to force adjustments to the quarterbacks they face.

.

It did seem the team drafted CB's who were highly touted for man coverage. It would seem like a positive to use man coverage more. While the old saying is true, "You live by the blitz and you die by the blitz", using it more than we have I too think would be a positive. It seems to me the biggest issue has been the communication and getting the D all on the same page. We actually heard it from the players this season. I'm certainly not against having a DC that implements more discipline but I think that communication was the biggest issue.

I am fine with either - and as the article mentions teams are in their base defense maybe 30-33% of the time. But I do not embrace the idea of Myles Garrett being part of "massive set of edge setters against the run" - but I do think Flores would find ways to utilize MG. And maybe the 3-4 actually plays to the strength of JOK and Delphit? The flip side is finding a starting, impactful starting NT to play in that 3-4 might be hard, and then to add depth?

When I read articles about Schwartz - they talk about how creative and brilliant he was in coming up with schemes and variations. Disguising pressure and mixing up where an extra man may be launched from. Either is fine but maybe I have a slight preference for Schwartz ...

Other positives and negatives for Flores - to my mind - he probably brings more of the hard nose attitude and culture change/shock that the entire team and coaching staff might need. The flip side is that if Watson/Stefanski don't hit the ground running early in the season, you could see calls for Flores to replace KS by mid-season which I think would be detrimental no matter what.

For myself I had major issues with the defense.

I believe that blitzing is an effective tactical tool when used strategically. IMO Woods misused the talent on the team.

Ward, Newsome, Greedy and to degree Emerson can all play man.

JJ3 missed tackles at alarming rate and was poor in use as a FS.

I agree with the article about the serious need for a FS.

Conceptually, I like what I read about Flores. Sounds quite a bit like what Tomlin runs. It still requires using the players skills within the scheme.

Schwartz no doubt has a resume of great experience. If he is chosen. I will have no problem.

However, I like defenses that are hard to read. Hard to figure who is coming from where. I believe quarterbacks need to be uncomfortable. Make them have questions in pre-snap. During a game it makes them speed up their reads and helps to make them commit errors. I like taking the ball away.

If a defense takes no risks and consistently depends upon four to bring pressure. They are easier to prepare for. Miami tooks us apart and made it look easy.

Hmm, I guess that could be possible. But that would only be true if Steve has a problem with that, right? Steve calls the plays on defense. He's confident and comfortable in that role. I don't know what his ambitions are, but he may actually be the heir-apparent? Maybe everyone knows that. If Mayo isn't interested in DC as a stepping stone -- maybe this scenario works best for everyone. I think DC is Steve's natural progression, while Mayo doesn't need to take that role to elevate himself to HC material. I also think it would be strange to make Mayo the DC and still have Steve calling the plays.

I get excited when I read articles like that with Flores. I think he would be a great pick up at DC. The problem is we just spent a year basically waiting on the franchise QB then a dramatic defensive switch would not garner overnight success and could be something that year two in will be better than year 1. I don't know how much patience the team has left. If he is the best candidate, then I think we must hire Flores. But if winning now matters and making smaller changes and getting the most out of the players and scheme we run now is Schwartz then I think hiring him is best. I don't have a problem with Flores. I think he is a very good coach and I like his aggressiveness and think that is something the Browns have needed on defense for a while now. I just think if they were going to make that dramatic change on defense it should have happened this year while they were having a dramatic change on offense and the cultures could have grown together.

You make a good point about Schwartz.

He could make for a smoother transfer.

I prefer what Flores runs but that is just me and what I like in defensive scheme.

If you have a great front four in a base 4-3 you do a lot. But that is hard to assemble. It is like all top ten first round picks unless you can find that talent in later rounds. The 85 Bears had that kind of front four. 15-1. And it was a miracle they lost a game.

I would kill for a team like that. I don't care if it were for only one season. I would love to dominate like that team did for a year.

I like Schwartz as well.

One thing about Schwrtz is he is very sound with his defensive front. He has a proven history of getting the most out of that unit.

That's a good article about Flores. Thanks.

Like others, I'm good w/either Flores or Schwartz although I think this is way more about players than schemes.

Pit...the Wood's scheme was part of the problem with the Browns defense and with a new DC we should see that problem corrected.

That scheme left the Browns defense vulnerable in the flat and the short middle because our LBers would quickly read pass and drop too deep, leaving the underneath open. Losing MLB Walker in the 3rd game really hurt, even though Woods' scheme had him out of position to defend the underneath zone.

Walker was the ideal size at 6-1/240, smart, fast, with quick reaction time...how he recovers from the surgery on his torn quad will determine his future with the Browns...he will be a free agent if the Browns do not extend his contract. Jacob Phillips replaced Walker at MLB for 4 games then was lost for the season with a torn peck. Deion Jones filled in the rest of the season..so, no doubt that injuries played a part in the play of the Browns MLB.

Healthy players, new scheme...that should help the Defensive performance in 2023.

mac, we have had this discussion before about Woods scheme. I provided proof of all the teams that run the same/similar scheme.

Perhaps Woods was not a good communicator? I don't know the answer to that. However, the scheme was not the issue. All schemes can be exploited.

They should have kept Joe Woods.
I'm disappointed that nobody seemed to go to bat for Joe Woods, whether it would have mattered, that of the faces of analytics and ownership, Who stood up for Their guy, Who stood up for what was working and not broken, who stood up for Joe Woods?

They Can, could, and probably will do a lot worse than Joe Woods.
The defense was not broken.
The Defense against the pass, was the best its been since I994, and back then there were different rules.

Want to know why they can't win the division?
They can't even fix the correct of the 3 coordinators
The defense worked out the best
The offense needed fixed and re schemed,
and the special teams was Penalty City.

so, Only in Cleveland? They fired the guy who ran the best ran group of the 3.

Don't cry when they are 4 and I2 next year with one game to play.

I hate reading about schemes, coverages, alignments etc. Then I watch the game and you see a confused mess of players getting run on thru huge holes and receivers so wide open that the wide angle lens can't even fit a defender into the frame.

Does anyone have an example of a DC that was hired that provided an instant turnaround to that teams defense. I can think of OC examples, but nothing dramatic on the D side.

When Buddy Ryan became the HC of the Arizona Cardinals he installed his D. The year before they were near the bottom in total D. The next year with Ryan they were in the top 15. Quite a turnaround. After that they didn't do so well.

Dan Quinn turned the Cowboys defense around in one year. He was also excellent in Seattle. Not sure about any timelines, though.

How about Belichick w/the Giants? I don't know the answer, but it seems logical to think he improved them a lot.

Belichick had a great 6-year run as DC with the Giants including 2 Super Bowl wins. However, he didn't turn the defense around in one year. In fact, Belichick was the Giants Linebacker and/or special teams coach the previous 6-years before being promoted to the DC position. The previous year the Giants were 9-7 and went to the playoffs and went 1-1. In Belichick's first year, the Giants were 10-6 and went to the playoffs again and finished 1-1. Not exactly a one year turn around but future years produced 2 Super Bowls.

Only when the D was really bad to begin with. If it begins really really bad, then the fix can feel dramatic, but if it were reasonably good to begin with, then a new guy coming in to make some special magic unbelievably good defense in one year is hard to remember.

Browns DC candidate has head coaching interview request in Carolina as well
It will be interesting if any of the others also get a HC interview
By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Jan 12, 2023, 5:35pm EST 0 Comments / 0 New


The Cleveland Browns were expected to have competition for some of their targets for their open defensive coordinator position but that competition may be more interesting than expected. Jim Schwartz, Brian Flores, Jerod Mayo and Sean Desai are all respected in the NFL and should be in positions to call defenses next year unless they decide otherwise.

One way that they may not be calling defenses is if they get a chance to be a head coach somewhere. We know that the Browns have placed an emphasis on past head coaching experience in looking for their new coordinator. We also know there is a chance that Schwartz or Flores could be targetted for head coaching positions, although neither has been linked to an interview yet.

Somewhat surprisingly, it is actually Mayo that has the first chance, of the four, to interview for the top job. The Carolina Panthers have requested to interview him for their position according to a report:

The Panthers are in an interesting position. Interim coach Steve Wilks almost got the team to the playoffs after a putrid start under Matt Rhule but seems to have an uphill climb to get the position.

Mayo, a former first-round pick and quality starting linebacker for the New England Patriots, has never held the title of defensive coordinator but has called plays for the Pats for a few years. His only coaching and playing experience is with New England which could be a selling point given Bill Belichick’s resume but no coach off of Belichick’s tree has had much success in the NFL.

Schwartz and Flores interviewed with Cleveland on Wednesday and Thursday. There is no timetable currently set for either Mayo or Desai. With Seattle in the playoffs, Desai’s interview will depend on if the Seahawks advance.

It is likely that Mayo will prioritize the Carolina interview first before scheduling with the Browns.


https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/...Qx5xhpSrvph3sYyDvP7-RpBnbqM0BofRtERU6YRA

Schwartz is the guy I want.

I'd seen that mayo was interviewing the the panthers HC position. If Tepper doesn't give it to Wilks I think he's bonkers. But then look what he gave Matt Rhule, anything is possible

I want whoever gives us the best chance to get to a super bowl.

That is the bottom line for me too and I believe 'prior experience' should be one of the major factors the search team needs to consider.

j/c:

This is a general comment about coaching hires, and perhaps even anecdotal, but I feel like the flashy, popular name everyone wants rarely hits the mark and it is the unknown, under the radar hire that really pays dividends in the end. I suppose this thought is more geared towards HC hires, but just something I've noticed over the years in the NFL.

Jake Burns is one of a select few who I pay close attention too.

Here he spells out not in deep detail but the philosophical approach that Flores would bring as opposed to what we have had under Woods.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland...nsive-coordinator-202763541/#202763541_2

Thanks for the article. I respect Jake Burns more than any other guy who talks about the Browns.

I don't know if hiring Flores or Schwartz would be the best move. While a shift to a more aggressive philosophy is enticing, I think it might take a couple of years to get the right personnel. I think our window is now. Pushing things back a year is not ideal.

In the end, I don't know who we should hire. Again, I think the NFL is more about players than coaches. I will just trust Berry and Stefanski to hire the right guy.

Good. I don't trust the Belichick tree and never will. Don't want this guy, especially because he doesn't have enough experience. I hope we get Flores. I want someone to wake these guys up from the non chalant attitudes they have.

The window is now - it was 2022 too, which is why flushing it down the toilet upset a few posters.

I think there are plenty of examples - Williams when he took over from Hue, Pederson taking over the Jaguars, Belichick getting back up QB's to play at high levels - heck even Stefanski getting the most out of Baker - to suggest that coaching is a very significant part of how a team or an offense/defense performs. While you can't make chicken salad out of chicken poop - the right coach can make a Michelin Star rated meal when other coaches make meatloaf with the same ingredients.

And staying with Baker would have essentially meant flushing the season down the toilet too. At least now, there is higher upside of QB performance.

Who suggested that coaching was not important? I said I think the NFL is more about players than coaches.

If players were not more important than coaches, explain how Belichick went 16 and 0 one year and 5 and 11 in another?

How did McVay win the Super Bowl last year and go 5 and 12 the following year?

Coaches are important. Players are more important. Period.

We don't want a Baker thread. We don't need to talk about the same record as an injured QB with a roster that was decimated by injury much worse than they were in 2022 and with a team without Amari Cooper.

I mean you are probably right that we *might* have a higher upside on QB performance if DW plays better than he did while knocking the rust off. Right? And no-one has ever claimed Watson isn't supposed to be a much better QB than Baker.

I guess me mentioning that posters were upset that we flushed 2022 down the toilet is ripe for you or someone else to make this about Baker... But that wasn't my intent.

I agree, and calling Belichicks plays and actually designing a defensive scheme and coaching it are 2 different things.

j/c…

Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
The #AZCardinals have requested permission to interview #Steelers senior defensive assistant and LBs coach Brian Flores for their vacant HC position, sources say.

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1613897370759987200

Edit:

Same info as Milk's last post.

KS is the guy who will and should be the guy to decide.

So, he has to see eye to eye with the guy. His neck is on the line.

Head coaches work the side they came from. So, the other side has to take charge and make it happen.

I could be wrong but I believe there are enough core players on defense that could change to Flores's preference on defense.

In the end the hire has to be in sync with KS.

I could be wrong, but I think it is more important for Flores and Berry reach a mutual understanding about personnel that anything. Stefanski can allow Flores to run the defense and not have to worry as much about that side of the ball......just like guys like Andy Reed, Shanny, and McVay do.

Me three.

And he seems like consensus-builder-nice-guy. That's the last thing we need. That's not his fault, just too much of that going around. I like Flores, and yes, these cats need a wake up call in the worst way.

I don't buy that. After a slow start last year, the defense played great. After a sluggish start to the season this year, the defense performed well in many games. If the scheme was the issue we would not have seen as many great performances from our D in so many games and poor performances in others. It seems more than obvious to me when the players knew there responsibilities going into a game they performed well. When they didn't, they performed poorly.

Both sides of the ball do not play the same way against every team. The plays and schemes they run are not the same in every game. The objective is to find your opponents weaknesses and exploit those weaknesses. So players assignments change from week to week. Some of the players themselves spoke about the confusion. When communication gets so bad that the players get frustrated enough to make such comments, I'm going to take them at their word on that.

LOL

Never overlook the Haslem 'trump card' if he falls in love with a popular option. Going for the flashy name instead of a thoughtful, thorough vetting process.

Pit...I'm glad we agree...the Wood's scheme was part of the problem with the Browns defense and with a new DC we should see that problem corrected.

It only took Woods over half the season to listen to his players about simplifying the defense..after the Miami game...by then the Browns were 3-6 heading into the Bills game.

If Woods was so good at making defensive changes..why was he fired..?

🤮🤢🤮
I think everyone will throw up in their mouth just a little.

On personnel to play his scheme absolutely. Berry handles the roster.

But KS has a big stake in the performance of the defense. He still needs to communicate with his DC.

It is KS's decision. I agree most coaches work their side but after firing Woods.

I think KS will want to at least be informed and in the loop.

Whoever, it is. I just want it to work.

On a side bar. I just met some young LB from Appalachian State. He was rehabbing a ACL in the pool. I was there doing laps.
He is buddies with Perrion Winfrey. Nice young man. Rocked out. I knew when I saw him he was a player. There are some physical trainers who work with people at the pool. It is a big aquatic center. Had some chuckles with him about Winfrey.

Thanks for that. I'm gonna repost the entire article. It not only illustrates how different Flores' approach is, it provides some depth as to the necessary roster changes. As I and others have said before, when talking about scheme change and it's impact, we need to overhaul the front anyway.

I am of the opinion, 100%, that the most important thing you need to do as a defense is make the opposing QB uncomfortable. That has to be more than a mere concern that once in a while Garrett or Clwoney may beat his man.

Flores has historically taken this to an extreme... that doesn't mean it would have to be that way out of gate, but no one wants to hear the words "transition process". I get it.

We've shown to be constantly confused on defense. Jfan mentioned the wide-angle camera shots after an opponent's big play... with no defender on the screen. Then the camera pans to players throwing their hands in the air like "what the heck happened?". A player (maybe more) commented on Woods defense being confusing. They argue about things like "green dot communication" while we wonder how we can have so much talent consistently underperform on the field.

Maybe I'm wrong, and someone with more Xs and Os knowledge can pipe up if I am... Wouldn't a defense like this put more onus on "know your job, do your job" and actual execution? Rather than wondering if players are capable of interpreting what changes they should make, on the fly, and "play instinctually" (another catch-phrase, when players and coaches have tried to explain our shortcomings)?

After digging into this the past few days I'm:

Fine with a Schwartz hiring
Excited about a Flores hiring
Happy that we're moving forward, and no longer have a defense that seems to be designed around some strange algorithm that none of the players can seem to understand.




Brian Flores Fits 'Swing For The Fences' Hire for Browns Defensive Coordinator
ByJAKE BURNS 20 hours ago


The Browns started their interview cycle for defensive coordinator yesterday with Jim Schwartz who I consider to be the most seamless hire they can conjure up for the current defensive personnel and concepts that personnel is accustomed to using.

Today, the Browns interview a coach I consider to be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum in terms of philosophy and approach. This is not to say Brian Flores is incapable of adjusting scheme to personnel, but the shift from Joe Woods's approach to defense--and in a sense Schwartz's--to what Flores prefers brings about a total shift of thought.

Flores lives on the edge of the blade, so to speak. He is about as blitz-happy a coach as you will find and he thrives on making opposing quarterbacks feel uncomfortable. “You always want to be aggressive and you always want to have a physical front and always want to pressure the quarterback,” he told Steelers.com upon his hiring last season in Pittsburgh as a defensive assistant and co-linebackers coach. Remember, before the Dolphins' journey, Flores cut his coaching teeth in the Bill Belichick tree. Aggression is what they know.

The Browns' current group was taught through Woods to play a 'bend but don't break' defense that focused on limiting explosive plays and funneling the football into certain areas for rallying efforts. Flores's approach differs in about every conceivable way. Instead of banking on the offense to make mistakes over time, they want to put that pressure on you throughout a game to get that mistake on their own time.

This logically makes you think many things will have to change in Cleveland. From the baseline frame of mind to the schemes used, all the way to the personnel within them. The question is just how much will need to change and how quickly can it be pulled off. Well, the answer might surprise you.


AS AGGRESSIVE AS IT GETS
Again, Flores wants to make you as uncomfortable as possible on a down-to-down basis. This means pressure, the league-leading variety, comes through aggression and blitzing. Over the course of Flores's final two seasons in Miami, 2020 and 2021, his defenses led the NFL in pressure percentage at 37.5%. This was largely due to bringing five or more rushers after the quarterback on 497 dropbacks over that time frame--2nd in the NFL. Those rushing statistics are in line with Baltimore and Tampa Bay as both of the teams surrounding them in blitz rate over the two-year time period.

They used a variety of sim pressures with mudded linebackers and safeties near the line of scrimmage. All of it meant to confuse opposing quarterbacks and those trying to protect them. Here are some examples--a reminder, we will only get deep into the film once the Browns actually hire their new coordinator.



According to Pro Football Focus, Flores found plenty of success on a play-to-play basis with his aggressive approach.

Here's a snapshot of his 2020 and 2021 seasons according to their data.

Overall:
EPA/play allowed: -0.071 (6th best)
Success rate allowed: 43.2% (6th)

vs Pass:
EPA/play allowed: -0.062 (3rd)
Success rate allowed: 45.9% (6th)

vs Run:
EPA/play allowed: -0.087 (19th)
Success rate allowed: 38.7% (13th)

Flores' defenses:
-blitzed at the highest rate in the NFL (42.6%)
-ran man defense at the highest rate in the NFL (50%)
-11th best team D grade (72.4)
-7th best run D grade

The results were there on the defensive side, but plug-and-play can sometimes be confusing for a new hire. As we know, they have to make sure the puzzle pieces are there to fill out the bigger picture.


PERSONNEL CHANGES
Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry were asked about the personnel changes that can come with a new hire on defense with a preference for a different style of play. ”We are going to look very hard at all these candidates, and schematically, they look at our roster and they look at our tape and we can start talking ball and what we could do differently. Those are all conversations to make sure that then our personnel matches up in the vision of what we want to do.”

If the route is Flores, or Mayo (we will get to this later), then there needs to be some tweaking to get the right bodies in place to make the most of what makes Flores comfortable and effective in his coaching. The Dolphins played the league's highest volume of DIME personnel (six defensive backs) in 2020. They were top-3 in 2019 as well. This is what the Belichick tree loves--athleticism and playmakers (the Patriots led the NFL in DIME this past year).

The Browns system under Joe Woods was meant to build from the front four back, but it has felt for years with Andrew Berry, as they built the back seven, that they worked in an opposite fashion from each other. The Browns have invested heavily in defensive backs, safeties, and athletic linebackers during Berry's tenure and perhaps this is the mesh in philosophy they prefer to now work with.

Sure, they need to consider a post safety (single high safety) in free agency or the draft, could use a stand-up EDGE type (think Melvin Ingram among others), and likely need another nickel corner, but the pieces are in place in a way that doesn't mean overhaul. They can move Myles Garrett all over the front from two-point EDGE rusher to 4i mismatch, to A-gap assassin. It's all in play. Perhaps Flores can get Grant Delpit to turn into his version of Jevon Holland who thrived as a rookie in 2020 aligning all over the field.

Does Alex Wright take an Emmanuel Ogbah jump with a new role all over the defensive line? Can Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah become the version of Kyle Dugger that has dominated in Belichick's overhang role these past two years? You can see how the pieces mesh better than we think. There is work to be done on the roster, but the Denzel Ward, Greg Newsome, and Martin Emerson trio form a group of corners that Flores was used to with Byron Jones and Xavien Howard. Players who can operate on an island in man coverage while you get aggressive up front.

This hire might be the right type of shift the Browns' defense needs. The total change in mental processing about that side of the ball that has been missing in recent years. If the Browns hire Flores it will tell us exactly what they feel the unit needs: aggression and a lot of it.

It might be the swing-for-the-fences hire that yields big returns in 2023.

Where do you think Flores came from?

Not sure I agree with this except for the fact that the secondary is an investment that is important to the Browns' FO. The comment about investing in athletic LBs seems odd as they only drafted one in the second round (JOK). Not sure if Anthony Walker is considered a fast/athletic LB but I could be wrong. Even if he is, the financial investment in the LB group pales in comparison to the secondary and, believe it or not, the front four considering the long-term contract with Myles and the two one-year contracts with Clowney. The LB unit hasn't come close to sniffing that amount of investment.

I think the more appropriate analysis (and I'm biased because it's mine, but not mine alone) is that the Browns want to invest resources where the passing game can be disrupted more so than making a significant investment in stopping the run, which I believe is where the assumption of the secondary comes into place over the front four due to minimal resources for the interior line.

I'd be fine with investing in the defense interior where pass rushing is still weighted more than run stopping, but we'll see what they do. I'm more concerned with teams' increased scoring as a result of the passing game than I am the running game. I forget the scouting report on Winfrey, but I thought he was known for his pass rush upside than run blocking- might be wrong. Maybe they'll look for a 1-tech or NT-type this offseason to mitigate the poor 2022 rushing numbers??

Flores was a DC?

Technically no, but he coached in the Patriots system for 15 years before getting the Miami HC gig with the last 3 being the linebacker's coach. Since New England doesn't always name a defensive coordinator, who was actually in charge those off years is not known.

Flores was with New England from 2004-2018

Recent New England DC History
2012-2017 Matt Patricia
2006-2009 Dean Pees
2005 Eric Mangini
2001-2004 Romeo Crennel

I wasn't putting the guy down.

A do find it ironic some like Flores but don't like Mayo because he is a part of the BB tree.

Not a big deal, but in addition to JOK the Browns have also drafted Jacob Phillips [3rd] and Tony Fields [5th] while Berry has been here.

Here is a bit on Anthony Walker. Probably from college.

Schwartz is too, that "Slappy"

I could be wrong, but if we hire Flores, I think JOK will play in our nickel and dime packages, but not so much in our base defense. TakiTaki and Ragland [who might not return] would be the type of guys for our base defense.

j/c...

Good listen


https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/sp...owns-dc-prefer-jim-schwartz-as-safe-pick

PPSSTTT Flores is also from the Belichick tree.

Flores has 15 straight years as a part of the Belichick tree - you could say he's one of the roots of the tree. Nothing negative about Flores but you'd have to admit that he most certainly has Belichick blood flowing through his veins. There's no way Belichick doesn't have a heavy influence on his style of coaching. Like I said, nothing negative about Flores but if you have a grudge against people mentored by Belichick, then Flores would have to be dead last on any selection list presented to you.

I think for many posters/fans who are wary of the Belichick tree - or even of some Patriots players who have had short term exposure/success ... the issue isn't being Belichick tree/influence itself, it's the relatively high number of highly regarded coaches who have gone on to not be anything special when given opportunities away from Belichick. I could be wrong - but that's my understanding. With a coach like Flores who has had success away from Belichick - both in Miami and a positive influence/role in Pittsburgh - I think the aversion is reduced because they have proven ability outside of the Patriots team. Mayo might be the next best thing in the entire league - but whoever promotes him to DC or HC (if he gets offered a that position) would be taking quite the giant leap of faith.

I'm not sure if you have comprehension issues but we certainly do not agree and I made that simple to understand. Poor communications has nothing to do with scheme.

No man, you and Mac argee.



I laughed when Ii read that early this morning. I was going to say something but decided to just move on past...lol

I certainly think a coaches resume' means something. Some seem to not think that as much.

So you're saying that not having the ability to properly communicate your scheme to your players means your scheme is bad? I see that as two totally different things.

It is two different things. however if your scheme is so complicated that your players spend more time thinking instead of reacting it's not going to work.

Sorry man...I was agreeing with you.

I would agree with you if not for the fact that many DC's use pretty complicated defensive schemes. Some feature many differing ways to disguise their defenses and have many variations to them. Yet their players seem to execute those defenses quite well. That's why I think it was more Woods ability to communicate with his players that was the biggest issue.

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. A DC is a teacher of the defense. I think we can all remember in school how some teachers made things so complicated in their teaching methods that many of their students had a very hard time learning the subject and material being taught. While still other teachers had no problem communicating the subject material in a manner that could be easily digested and understood by the vast majority of their students.

It isn't that all of the teachers didn't have the knowledge to teach their courses. It isn't that those who made learning much easier were smarter. It's that some people make efficient teachers and some don't.

My bad.

Properly communicate? No, see they are 2 totally different things. see, the scheme;
Part of the scheme is the players understanding of the scheme, But That's not the scheme.

" harry, I'm not arguing that with you, I'm not, I'm not arguing that with you, ... I know he can get the job,, but can he do the job, ... I know, I know he can get the job, HARRY,, I'm not arguing that with you, .. I know, I know he can get the job, but can he Do the job? I'm not arguing that with you. . HARRY. " < a line from the movie, "Joe vs. the volcano"

It's not the dictionary definition of the "scheme" of course not.
It' not the DICTIONARY definition...
If they can't understand the scheme, it's not.. well how is it a good scheme? It's ...
They are 2 totally different things No

I don't think they are paying attention, NO, that's not what I said, I .. meant, I said I mean
if they can understand the scheme, then how is it the schemes fault?
can they, can they run the scheme right next time..
If they players can run the scheme then why didn't they just learn it. why didn't they just run it, if they learned it, or ..
Can somebody help me out here.
they are 2 totally different things. Who says? that they didn't have the ability to properly communicate the scheme to the players?
They didn't give it enough time?
I think they get it now. Just a little more time was all they needed.

Or the students were just dumb. That's the message I got.

I didn't expect you to understand it. Same as most times. Students that did poorly in other classes still did good in math classes one of my teachers taught. Because he knew how to communicate the lessons being taught. Hopefully that helps simplify things for you.

Yea, I'm the one with comprehension issues..lol..

I'm glad you understand that.

At least I admitted my gaffe. You? Not so much.

jc:

Pit...sometimes I'm just not in the mood to argue and nit-pick...especially when there is not a disagreement.

Another fail.

I think Staley is the worst HC in the entire league, but he did have success as a DC for the one year he held the job. That is what made him [and being part of the McVay tree] a HC candidate in the first place. On the other hand, I didn't like how he was blaming his players after the game last night and took no accountability at all.

Did we not see an example of Staley's defensive coaching yesterday..when the Charger defense collapsed in the second half vs the Jags..?

No thanks..the Chargers defense was worse than the Browns in many areas..such as being last against the run giving up 5.4 yds per carry.

You absolutely crack me up. First, to call Staley "the worst HC coach in the NFL, by far" when his record the last 2-years puts Stefanski's record those same 2 years to shame is out and out comical. Secondly, with Staley, you always refer to him being responsible because he's the HC but with Stefanski it is the defense's fault, and they have to get rid of Woods. Though I will agree that the Chargers defense for the year was like watching the Browns defense - they did make the playoffs while our Browns are sitting their azzes at home for the 19th time in 20 years. I don't know if the Chargers ownership will move on from Staley or not (their decision) but IMHO, it's quite hypocritical to be throwing stones at another team after the two years our Browns have just had - it's a very thin glass house at best.

Finally, the opinion, "but he did have success as a DC for the one year he held the job. That is what made him [and being part of the McVay tree] a HC candidate in the first place." How many years did you say Stefanski had experience in as an OC? Who has the better team record the two years they have both been HC's? I'm just wondering, if Staley is the worst HC in the NFL, by far yet he's posted a better record than Stefanski with a playoff appearance over the last 2 years as HC, what is the adjective you have for Stefanski?

Staley would make sense for our FO. Not sure he has the personality we need IMO. We need a more hard nosed guy to be a complement to KS

Teflon.

I thought this was a Defensive Coordinator Candidate thread?

I don't know. After listening to his milquetoast comments he might fit right in.

By now since nearly every post you author; I think we know you hate KS.

You have made it your assassination mission.

Got anything else?

Put it all together and repeat "I hate Kevin Stefanski."

OK now?

Who is the head coach of the Cleveland Browns?

In name? I haven't seen anything that indicates he has much if any input to the defensive side. So in a practical sense he is the OC but his title is HC. I don't hate him and haven't ask that he be fired or anything. But the situation is what it is. But hey, he does have the title of HC and gets paid to be that so he is the HC. I mean they have him listed as the HC on the Cleveland Browns web site, right?

Just my 2 cents - I'm not reading hate for Stefanski, I am seeing a poster question how one HC (Staley) is castigated in comparison to one HC (KS) who is venerated. Yet if you compare records, accomplishments and how each team has performed under each coach the facts don't support those completely contrary opinions of each HC.

And they hijack yet another thread. More and more people are on to you guys. Trust me on that one.

Are you and your cronies having group PM's now? How would you know what "more and more people are onto "otherwise? What's next, are you guys going to start a bridge club, have a quilting bee?

If you have read steve.

Outside of cap comments damn near every post is about KS and how he sucks.

Ok. I get it. Great he is entitled to his opinion.

Belichick' s came to the Browns as a first time HC.

His record:

6-10
7-9
7-9
-----------
11-5
5-11

KS going to the same losing team as a first time head coach:

11-5 ((1-1 playoffs)
8-9
7-10

===========================================================================

I don't give a damn who likes him or not. But it gets old when every post repeats itself.

In addition to attacking his record with the Vikings.

The season is over. He did not get fired. He is the head coach.

Everybody knows this year KS has to get to the playoffs.

This thread is suppose to about the DC hire.

Are you actually trying to make a comparison between Stefanski and Belichick? As I've pointed out before, that's reaching back almost 30 years to try and make a comparison. With 32 team in the NFL and almost 30 seasons between the two, that's a pretty easy thing to do. In your comparison you must have forgotten to mention one large difference. Bellichick's season record didn't get worse every year he coached in his first three years.

Let's be candid here. MemphisBrownie posted a tweet stating an opinion that if LA fires Staley, he should leapfrog to the top of the DC list for the Browns. That post is perfectly in line with the thread "Browns DC Candidates." You then HIJACKED the thread by stating the opinion that Staley is the "worst HC in the NFL, by far." I responded to your off the cuff opinion that had nothing to do with the thread by pointing out the facts that clearly show that your opinion is lacking validity. You now in turn are attacking multiple forum posters for engaging in a topic you created "all by yourself" and now showing how hypocritical you are by claiming other people hijacked a post when the guilty party has been you - as it is on almost every thread.

Just because you don't like him doesn't make him unqualified to be the Browns DC if released by LA. I mean after all; the fact is he's been a better HC than the one we have in Cleveland over the last two years. The NFL is still about wins and losses - that hasn't changed in 102 years.

When he doesn't like the comments he makes it personal. Then he blames everyone else for being a bully. It's his M.O.

BB - 20-28 (no playoffs) record for his first three years.

KS - 26- 24 (1-1 in the playoffs) record for his first three years.

Who cares about when? You? That is the record with the same team.

My point is simple. Give him credit for what he has done. Look at the record before he came. I don't need to point the history out. You know it.
You know how many coaches we have had.

He is the head coach of the team now. I back the team and KS.

You don't like him fine. Get in line with riz and steve.

The thread is about DC's . Start a thread about how KS sucks.

I mean if your point is that mediocrity is better than misery I would agree. Once again, I've never said I don't like him or want him fired. It's just that some look at things from a more realistic standpoint and some have more of a blind loyalty always searching for any positive needle in the haystack they can find and dismissing everything else.

Not that there's anything wrong with either. That doesn't mean those two points of view have to be enemies or either side loves or hates the Browns any more or less. That's just something we, or others try to convince ourselves of.

I certainly don't begrudge you looking at everything in a positive light. Backing the team and or the coach doesn't mean I have to like or agree with everything they do. It doesn't mean you're somehow a better fan of the team than those who question them. I would hope that you consider that not everyone is going to blindly back every move, player or coach on this team. That even those who don't want a HC fired, such as myself, aren't going to blindly sit here and yell "Rah, rah, rah!" about everything. And that doesn't make anyone here enemies, or at least it shouldn't. There's nothing wrong with a little critical thinking.

Also, if we had a more capable DC our record for the last 2 years would have been better. Probably winning seasons instead of losing ones. I know some will blame KS for that but it is the truth. We have been that close. JMO

Who hires and is responsible for the coaching staff which serves under the HC? The reason I'm asking is because it appears people seem to think that the hirings or firings of the coaching staff, overseeing the coaching staff and being the boss of the coaching staff isn't the responsibility of the HC. At least that is the impression I get from some posts on here including the one you just made.

Pit, I'm sure KS had a lot to do with Joe Woods hiring. However, he's not the one who called the D plays or didn't make the needed in game adjustments. That's on Woods and those factors along with the slow starts by the D in the last 2 years probably cost us a playoff spot and winning records.

You do realize that Stefanski could have fired him after last season, right? I guess my point is if you have a foreman at work that keeps screwing everything up, isn't it the job of his boss to correct that? Or do you absolve his boss of keeping that foreman on the job and blaming that foreman for continuing to screw up?

Yes of course. Maybe KS didn't fire him at the end of last season because the D straightened out and was playing better by then. KS gave him this season based on that but when the exact same thing happened again it was felt a change had to be made and was.

I mean if your point is that mediocrity is better than misery I would agree.??

How do you get that? Not the point at all.

Three years is the point. Three years with the Browns as your first head coaching job. Going to a losing team

I don't think I can make myself more clear.

Be the kind of fan you wish. Have at it.

So you don't feel that 8-9 and 7-10 is the very definition of mediocrity? And you don't think the losing ways before Stefanski got here was misery? I'm not sure that going from a playoff team his first year and working his way down to a 7-10 record in his third year is making the point you think it is. But to each their own.

Can we stop with the idea that K S could have hired or fired anybody, or that anybody could have hired or fired anybody last season that wasn't the Haslams
It seems nobody has been hired or fired, on that level, except by the Haslams, since they bought the team, and that was way back, way way back when ...

=========================
Google, and the Browns defensive coordinator news makes me ask
Heck half these guys are already D. Coordinators or better, how are they going to make a lateral move, or do we expect they'll get fired and then come to Cleveland,
or Are they going to get a big money contract to come to Cleveland, but, ... found these 4 names.

Dennard Wilson
Sean Desai, <<<<>>>> hey, hire both of those << the Browns need all the help they can get, one can coach special teams.
Schwartz
and Flores

and the latter 2, It doesn't read like they'd go to the Browns except as a demotion or not getting what they were trying for.
Joe Woods... wasn't broken.

j/c...

Lots of people seem to like this guy....

Only posting the non-fluff from this article. Click the link if you's like to see the whole thing


As I have throughout the process, here is what I am hearing about the Browns search:

Nothing surprised Cleveland in their interviews so far:

The team was aware that Brian Flores could have head coaching interviews that could delay him being available if they chose him

Jim Schwartz is not currently being pursued by other teams, gives the team some time with that candidate

The newest addition to the process, Dennard Wilson, is someone they would like to add to the staff with a new DC, if able to, but is a real candidate for the top spot as well

They, like other teams, thought it would be tough to get Jerod Mayo out of New England but were excited about getting the chance to meet with him

As Allbright mentioned, Staley would be high on their candidate list but waiting for the Chargers to make a decision might be difficult

If Cleveland adds another candidate (outside of Staley), it may be in part to extend the process while Flores’ head coaching interview(s) take place

We do not have any information on when Arizona will be interviewing Flores but a former player of his, Adrian Wilson, is in a position of authority there so he’s a real candidate

All of the pieces are now in place with a new one (Staley) possibly becoming available very soon. Hopefully, the Browns and their fans will know who will be running the defensive side of the ball very soon.




https://www.dawgsbynature.com/2023/...s-jim-schwartz-brandon-staley-sean-desai

He has already said he isn't a fan of the team any longer and is here to troll the board.

Thanks for the information.

I wonder if Arizona is serious about hiring Flores or if it's more for PR?

It's a bit concerning that apparently other teams are not interested in Schwartz.

I kinda expect for Staley to get the axe early this week. Not sure how I feel about him as a DC.

The Wilson situation is interesting. During the season, I checked out the resumes of our defensive coaching staff. Not very impressive. I'm assuming we will make other changes once the DC is hired.

I can't imagine a new DC coming in and not getting his own guys under him. I'm sure they'll keep 'some' holdovers, but between scheme, base, and the type of players the DC prefers there will certainly be more changes.

The players we have on defense IMO are capable of playing better.

I think there were a number of players who were not reaching their capability.

The following players IMO are key guys who the new DC should have a huge impact on:

Ward is a talented player. I have seen plays where I question his effort. However, he is a classic boundary corner.
Greg Newsome has talent. I believe he can play both corner and slot. It will be interesting to see where he will play.
Emerson competes. I love his aggressive play. Another guy who has talent and may play a different role. It may sound odd but I could see him at times playing a cover safety role.

Delpit has improved. He has talent. JJ3 I would trade him.

Taki has gotten better and I see a role for him.
JOK IMO was totally misused by Woods. I would love to see him in designed blitzes. Where he could come out of many positions on the field to rush the passer. He has excellent cover skills as well. He can play zone or in some cases press man or off man.
Walker is well thought of and I hope he fully recovers. I don't believe linebacker is as much as a problem that some believe.

Obviously Myles is our best player. Myles is such an athlete that I think he could play any defense. However, to get the most from him. I would love to see a guy like Daron Payne next to him. It would really be a challenge for a OL to handle that combo.
Winfrey has potential as a 3 tech. The others on the DL. They can all walk. We don't need All Pros but we do need at least starter quality.

There is plenty on the defensive roster to excite a new DC. As in most organizations the head coach delegates one side and takes the other.

That should be appealing to any candidate.

3-4 or 4-3 has kind of blurred because of the use of nickle and dime packages. I think the message that the DC brings is more important than what they call his scheme. Prepare the defense to get the most from their skills.

No doubt. It's seems to be rare that a coach keeps many, it any of the former coaches. I guess I wouldn't be shocked if we keep 1-2, I wouldn't be shocked if we released all of them.

The senior bowl is on Feb. 4th. I would hope we have this wrapped up at least a week before that to allow the new guy to review film on current players and at the senior bowl for scouting purposes.

I like this insight, 'Peen. There must be some sense of urgency doing these candidates, or at least an eye on the clock. I want thorough, but it can be dragged out too long. Our first candidates are interviewing with multiple teams; nothing to make them wait while we beat the bushes a few more times. The premium we assign to getting group feedback and talking to many folks as we engineer consensus is admirable, but hasn't proven overly effective here. It is swell to throw out there in pressers at points like this to rationalize decisions which pan no gold after the fact. Boom or blame?
I seem to recall searches that dragged on as candidates got hired out from under us because we dawdled and were late to the trough. I freely admit that some hasty decisions fill positions here, but often emplace a weak candidate in a poor fit. But we need to be ready to move on the man we want. I suspect that Cowher is still unavailable. But getting our man sooner lets him scout and build his units, because we don't have the stuff on the roster we need yet. Some are keepers, but some need to be excused, replaced, or downgraded if they can't be coached up. On top of all this, a big part of my sense of The Game holds that it isn't the scheme chats that we have had and shall have again, it's how you play it, how you game, compete, and adjust. I am left with the impression for the whole off-season that we didn't compete intensely and consistently enough. Like "The Replacements" movie, our new DC needs players who bring "heart, miles and miles of heart." Good hunting!

Of course that bolded part is a lie. It's true I'm no longer a fanatic. And I ask you, what part of my post was a lie? In order to be troll you have to make things up. I certainly did not. Your post shows that it's you who is the actual troll in this case.

Has Stefanski's record gotten worse in the two seasons after his first season or not? Yes it has. What is an 8-8 and 7-10 record other than mediocrity?

I know you don't like facts that are not all sunshine and roses. Facts that don't blow sunshine up your panties. So you try to attack the character of those who post them.

And while I do still support the Browns I can no longer call my level of support that of a fanatic. That stopped when they paid a kings ransom to make a sexual predator the face of this franchise. At least tell the truth and stop lying about the people you disagree with.

No doubt the search needs to be through and not rushed. If it takes longer, it takes longer. I want us to hire our #1 selection, or the #1 selection available to us if some people take other jobs.

Counseling may help.

Then you should certainly seek some counseling.

Gonna be a long off season...but board humor should help..!

I cannot believe that BF could turn down a legit offer from us to see what else is out there. I would think anyone looking for a coaching job or just better their lives, would jump at the chance to come to Cleveland!!

Wholeheartedly agree with signing our best choice or best available. I just want us to know that candidate and not miss out in the interest of further inputting. And, I believe that choice should get a fair chance to strive for what he will want and he will require.

Flores has an interview w/Arizona to be the HC. I'm sure he would prefer that title over DC.

j/c...

I'd say you and several others should seek help then. Maybe figure out why it's so easy for you to support DW... EVERYBODY else I talked to at least had some struggle with it. You are the only one I know that immediately turned on his victims and started defending him. And that is also why so many have relentlessly gone at you since. And I'm not saying this to get in your face or ball you out in any way; I just want to clear up some misinformation certain posters have been spreading daily around here. Watson, the man, and Watson, the player, are actually one and the same. And we each have to decide how we feel about that. I'm fine with how you feel about Watson now; early on, I wasn't, truth be told. And you must admit, you don't like how we felt about him. I hope you get past it soon.

Desai just seems too happy and carefree in that video.

I can read it now when the Browns next DC is hired
Here are the quotes to expect from him at the podium

1.we are going to be a attacking defense
2. We are going to punch you in the mouth
3. We are going to play smart
4. We are going to play fast and physical
5.11 bodies on the ball carrier
6. We are going to be unpredictable at times
7. We are going make QBs uncomfortable
8. It's my job to put players in positions to succeed
9. Iam honored to be here. The tradition is rich
Nlah blah blah
10. You have to play physical in the AFC NORTH
11. We will be the best tackling team ever
12. We will be accountable
13. I emphasize turnovers

Did I miss anything what might be said?

Sounds like a decision will be announced today

I did not turn on the victims. Another lie by one of the board's trouble makers. I said I would wait for all the information to come out and allow the legal system to do its job. I did not once say that Watson was innocent or guilty.

The reports about Desai and Flores seem somewhat contradictory. I can't see how Flores is the favorite and a hire could take place today before he even interviews w/Arizona. Or, am misreading things?

He can be the favorite to be the Browns DC on the basis that someone believes he is unlikely to get a HC gig at Arizona or anywhere else he interviews. It'd be like the KC Chiefs being the favorites to win the Super Bowl even though they haven't made it to the Championship game yet.

I heard a long stint on local Charlotte radio this morning about their search for a HC - Ben Johnson appears to be a front runner - but also how the Panthers have interviewed to replace the DC position already. Steve Wilks if he does get the HC gig, needs a DC. If Wilks doesn't get the HC gig he will be gone. The radio hosts talked significantly about Vic Fangio -- I don't know if the Browns have thought about interviewing him, but I guess I had not realized [1] How much experience as a DC he has - something like 19 years [2] Out of those 19 years the radio hosts said he had a top 10 or top 5 defense in something like 12 or 15 years out of 19. It certainly sounded like he is a very viable candidate and I wondered if anyone knows why he wouldn't be on our radar?

I started a thread on Fangio during the season when there was discussion of firing Woods. The thread only drew a couple of replies, but there is information on Fangio in the initial post if you--or anyone--wants to read it.

I haven't heard anything about the Browns being interested in Fangio. I think he is kind of crusty, but I'm not sure if that has anything to do w/the lack of interest or not.

Here is the link to the article: https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1978724/vic-fangio#Post1978724

I can only speak for myself - but the decision to move on from Woods during the season was one thing, but we would have replaced him with someone in house until the end of the season, then begun the search. I wasn't ready to speculate on replacements at that time.

I understand. I didn't want Woods fired during the season, either. I was just providing some information on Fangio in case you were interested.

Talking to yourself again? I told you counseling may hekp


You said you would accept Sue Robinson's decision. Instead you accept the punishment but refuse to accept the very findings that punishment was based on. Revisionist history won't change that.