DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns DC Candidates

Who suggested that coaching was not important? I said I think the NFL is more about players than coaches.

If players were not more important than coaches, explain how Belichick went 16 and 0 one year and 5 and 11 in another?

How did McVay win the Super Bowl last year and go 5 and 12 the following year?

Coaches are important. Players are more important. Period.

We don't want a Baker thread. We don't need to talk about the same record as an injured QB with a roster that was decimated by injury much worse than they were in 2022 and with a team without Amari Cooper.

I mean you are probably right that we *might* have a higher upside on QB performance if DW plays better than he did while knocking the rust off. Right? And no-one has ever claimed Watson isn't supposed to be a much better QB than Baker.

I guess me mentioning that posters were upset that we flushed 2022 down the toilet is ripe for you or someone else to make this about Baker... But that wasn't my intent.

I agree, and calling Belichicks plays and actually designing a defensive scheme and coaching it are 2 different things.

j/c…

Ian Rapoport
@RapSheet
The #AZCardinals have requested permission to interview #Steelers senior defensive assistant and LBs coach Brian Flores for their vacant HC position, sources say.

https://twitter.com/RapSheet/status/1613897370759987200

Edit:

Same info as Milk's last post.

I could be wrong, but I think it is more important for Flores and Berry reach a mutual understanding about personnel that anything. Stefanski can allow Flores to run the defense and not have to worry as much about that side of the ball......just like guys like Andy Reed, Shanny, and McVay do.

Me three.

And he seems like consensus-builder-nice-guy. That's the last thing we need. That's not his fault, just too much of that going around. I like Flores, and yes, these cats need a wake up call in the worst way.

I don't buy that. After a slow start last year, the defense played great. After a sluggish start to the season this year, the defense performed well in many games. If the scheme was the issue we would not have seen as many great performances from our D in so many games and poor performances in others. It seems more than obvious to me when the players knew there responsibilities going into a game they performed well. When they didn't, they performed poorly.

Both sides of the ball do not play the same way against every team. The plays and schemes they run are not the same in every game. The objective is to find your opponents weaknesses and exploit those weaknesses. So players assignments change from week to week. Some of the players themselves spoke about the confusion. When communication gets so bad that the players get frustrated enough to make such comments, I'm going to take them at their word on that.

LOL

Never overlook the Haslem 'trump card' if he falls in love with a popular option. Going for the flashy name instead of a thoughtful, thorough vetting process.

🤮🤢🤮
I think everyone will throw up in their mouth just a little.

Thanks for that. I'm gonna repost the entire article. It not only illustrates how different Flores' approach is, it provides some depth as to the necessary roster changes. As I and others have said before, when talking about scheme change and it's impact, we need to overhaul the front anyway.

I am of the opinion, 100%, that the most important thing you need to do as a defense is make the opposing QB uncomfortable. That has to be more than a mere concern that once in a while Garrett or Clwoney may beat his man.

Flores has historically taken this to an extreme... that doesn't mean it would have to be that way out of gate, but no one wants to hear the words "transition process". I get it.

We've shown to be constantly confused on defense. Jfan mentioned the wide-angle camera shots after an opponent's big play... with no defender on the screen. Then the camera pans to players throwing their hands in the air like "what the heck happened?". A player (maybe more) commented on Woods defense being confusing. They argue about things like "green dot communication" while we wonder how we can have so much talent consistently underperform on the field.

Maybe I'm wrong, and someone with more Xs and Os knowledge can pipe up if I am... Wouldn't a defense like this put more onus on "know your job, do your job" and actual execution? Rather than wondering if players are capable of interpreting what changes they should make, on the fly, and "play instinctually" (another catch-phrase, when players and coaches have tried to explain our shortcomings)?

After digging into this the past few days I'm:

Fine with a Schwartz hiring
Excited about a Flores hiring
Happy that we're moving forward, and no longer have a defense that seems to be designed around some strange algorithm that none of the players can seem to understand.




Brian Flores Fits 'Swing For The Fences' Hire for Browns Defensive Coordinator
ByJAKE BURNS 20 hours ago


The Browns started their interview cycle for defensive coordinator yesterday with Jim Schwartz who I consider to be the most seamless hire they can conjure up for the current defensive personnel and concepts that personnel is accustomed to using.

Today, the Browns interview a coach I consider to be on the complete opposite end of the spectrum in terms of philosophy and approach. This is not to say Brian Flores is incapable of adjusting scheme to personnel, but the shift from Joe Woods's approach to defense--and in a sense Schwartz's--to what Flores prefers brings about a total shift of thought.

Flores lives on the edge of the blade, so to speak. He is about as blitz-happy a coach as you will find and he thrives on making opposing quarterbacks feel uncomfortable. “You always want to be aggressive and you always want to have a physical front and always want to pressure the quarterback,” he told Steelers.com upon his hiring last season in Pittsburgh as a defensive assistant and co-linebackers coach. Remember, before the Dolphins' journey, Flores cut his coaching teeth in the Bill Belichick tree. Aggression is what they know.

The Browns' current group was taught through Woods to play a 'bend but don't break' defense that focused on limiting explosive plays and funneling the football into certain areas for rallying efforts. Flores's approach differs in about every conceivable way. Instead of banking on the offense to make mistakes over time, they want to put that pressure on you throughout a game to get that mistake on their own time.

This logically makes you think many things will have to change in Cleveland. From the baseline frame of mind to the schemes used, all the way to the personnel within them. The question is just how much will need to change and how quickly can it be pulled off. Well, the answer might surprise you.


AS AGGRESSIVE AS IT GETS
Again, Flores wants to make you as uncomfortable as possible on a down-to-down basis. This means pressure, the league-leading variety, comes through aggression and blitzing. Over the course of Flores's final two seasons in Miami, 2020 and 2021, his defenses led the NFL in pressure percentage at 37.5%. This was largely due to bringing five or more rushers after the quarterback on 497 dropbacks over that time frame--2nd in the NFL. Those rushing statistics are in line with Baltimore and Tampa Bay as both of the teams surrounding them in blitz rate over the two-year time period.

They used a variety of sim pressures with mudded linebackers and safeties near the line of scrimmage. All of it meant to confuse opposing quarterbacks and those trying to protect them. Here are some examples--a reminder, we will only get deep into the film once the Browns actually hire their new coordinator.



According to Pro Football Focus, Flores found plenty of success on a play-to-play basis with his aggressive approach.

Here's a snapshot of his 2020 and 2021 seasons according to their data.

Overall:
EPA/play allowed: -0.071 (6th best)
Success rate allowed: 43.2% (6th)

vs Pass:
EPA/play allowed: -0.062 (3rd)
Success rate allowed: 45.9% (6th)

vs Run:
EPA/play allowed: -0.087 (19th)
Success rate allowed: 38.7% (13th)

Flores' defenses:
-blitzed at the highest rate in the NFL (42.6%)
-ran man defense at the highest rate in the NFL (50%)
-11th best team D grade (72.4)
-7th best run D grade

The results were there on the defensive side, but plug-and-play can sometimes be confusing for a new hire. As we know, they have to make sure the puzzle pieces are there to fill out the bigger picture.


PERSONNEL CHANGES
Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry were asked about the personnel changes that can come with a new hire on defense with a preference for a different style of play. ”We are going to look very hard at all these candidates, and schematically, they look at our roster and they look at our tape and we can start talking ball and what we could do differently. Those are all conversations to make sure that then our personnel matches up in the vision of what we want to do.”

If the route is Flores, or Mayo (we will get to this later), then there needs to be some tweaking to get the right bodies in place to make the most of what makes Flores comfortable and effective in his coaching. The Dolphins played the league's highest volume of DIME personnel (six defensive backs) in 2020. They were top-3 in 2019 as well. This is what the Belichick tree loves--athleticism and playmakers (the Patriots led the NFL in DIME this past year).

The Browns system under Joe Woods was meant to build from the front four back, but it has felt for years with Andrew Berry, as they built the back seven, that they worked in an opposite fashion from each other. The Browns have invested heavily in defensive backs, safeties, and athletic linebackers during Berry's tenure and perhaps this is the mesh in philosophy they prefer to now work with.

Sure, they need to consider a post safety (single high safety) in free agency or the draft, could use a stand-up EDGE type (think Melvin Ingram among others), and likely need another nickel corner, but the pieces are in place in a way that doesn't mean overhaul. They can move Myles Garrett all over the front from two-point EDGE rusher to 4i mismatch, to A-gap assassin. It's all in play. Perhaps Flores can get Grant Delpit to turn into his version of Jevon Holland who thrived as a rookie in 2020 aligning all over the field.

Does Alex Wright take an Emmanuel Ogbah jump with a new role all over the defensive line? Can Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah become the version of Kyle Dugger that has dominated in Belichick's overhang role these past two years? You can see how the pieces mesh better than we think. There is work to be done on the roster, but the Denzel Ward, Greg Newsome, and Martin Emerson trio form a group of corners that Flores was used to with Byron Jones and Xavien Howard. Players who can operate on an island in man coverage while you get aggressive up front.

This hire might be the right type of shift the Browns' defense needs. The total change in mental processing about that side of the ball that has been missing in recent years. If the Browns hire Flores it will tell us exactly what they feel the unit needs: aggression and a lot of it.

It might be the swing-for-the-fences hire that yields big returns in 2023.

Where do you think Flores came from?

Not sure I agree with this except for the fact that the secondary is an investment that is important to the Browns' FO. The comment about investing in athletic LBs seems odd as they only drafted one in the second round (JOK). Not sure if Anthony Walker is considered a fast/athletic LB but I could be wrong. Even if he is, the financial investment in the LB group pales in comparison to the secondary and, believe it or not, the front four considering the long-term contract with Myles and the two one-year contracts with Clowney. The LB unit hasn't come close to sniffing that amount of investment.

I think the more appropriate analysis (and I'm biased because it's mine, but not mine alone) is that the Browns want to invest resources where the passing game can be disrupted more so than making a significant investment in stopping the run, which I believe is where the assumption of the secondary comes into place over the front four due to minimal resources for the interior line.

I'd be fine with investing in the defense interior where pass rushing is still weighted more than run stopping, but we'll see what they do. I'm more concerned with teams' increased scoring as a result of the passing game than I am the running game. I forget the scouting report on Winfrey, but I thought he was known for his pass rush upside than run blocking- might be wrong. Maybe they'll look for a 1-tech or NT-type this offseason to mitigate the poor 2022 rushing numbers??

Flores was a DC?

Technically no, but he coached in the Patriots system for 15 years before getting the Miami HC gig with the last 3 being the linebacker's coach. Since New England doesn't always name a defensive coordinator, who was actually in charge those off years is not known.

Flores was with New England from 2004-2018

Recent New England DC History
2012-2017 Matt Patricia
2006-2009 Dean Pees
2005 Eric Mangini
2001-2004 Romeo Crennel

I wasn't putting the guy down.

A do find it ironic some like Flores but don't like Mayo because he is a part of the BB tree.

Not a big deal, but in addition to JOK the Browns have also drafted Jacob Phillips [3rd] and Tony Fields [5th] while Berry has been here.

Here is a bit on Anthony Walker. Probably from college.

Schwartz is too, that "Slappy"

I could be wrong, but if we hire Flores, I think JOK will play in our nickel and dime packages, but not so much in our base defense. TakiTaki and Ragland [who might not return] would be the type of guys for our base defense.

j/c...

Good listen


https://www.audacy.com/923thefan/sp...owns-dc-prefer-jim-schwartz-as-safe-pick

PPSSTTT Flores is also from the Belichick tree.

Flores has 15 straight years as a part of the Belichick tree - you could say he's one of the roots of the tree. Nothing negative about Flores but you'd have to admit that he most certainly has Belichick blood flowing through his veins. There's no way Belichick doesn't have a heavy influence on his style of coaching. Like I said, nothing negative about Flores but if you have a grudge against people mentored by Belichick, then Flores would have to be dead last on any selection list presented to you.

I think for many posters/fans who are wary of the Belichick tree - or even of some Patriots players who have had short term exposure/success ... the issue isn't being Belichick tree/influence itself, it's the relatively high number of highly regarded coaches who have gone on to not be anything special when given opportunities away from Belichick. I could be wrong - but that's my understanding. With a coach like Flores who has had success away from Belichick - both in Miami and a positive influence/role in Pittsburgh - I think the aversion is reduced because they have proven ability outside of the Patriots team. Mayo might be the next best thing in the entire league - but whoever promotes him to DC or HC (if he gets offered a that position) would be taking quite the giant leap of faith.

I'm not sure if you have comprehension issues but we certainly do not agree and I made that simple to understand. Poor communications has nothing to do with scheme.

No man, you and Mac argee.



I laughed when Ii read that early this morning. I was going to say something but decided to just move on past...lol

I certainly think a coaches resume' means something. Some seem to not think that as much.

So you're saying that not having the ability to properly communicate your scheme to your players means your scheme is bad? I see that as two totally different things.

It is two different things. however if your scheme is so complicated that your players spend more time thinking instead of reacting it's not going to work.

Sorry man...I was agreeing with you.

I would agree with you if not for the fact that many DC's use pretty complicated defensive schemes. Some feature many differing ways to disguise their defenses and have many variations to them. Yet their players seem to execute those defenses quite well. That's why I think it was more Woods ability to communicate with his players that was the biggest issue.

I'll give you an example of what I'm talking about. A DC is a teacher of the defense. I think we can all remember in school how some teachers made things so complicated in their teaching methods that many of their students had a very hard time learning the subject and material being taught. While still other teachers had no problem communicating the subject material in a manner that could be easily digested and understood by the vast majority of their students.

It isn't that all of the teachers didn't have the knowledge to teach their courses. It isn't that those who made learning much easier were smarter. It's that some people make efficient teachers and some don't.

My bad.

Properly communicate? No, see they are 2 totally different things. see, the scheme;
Part of the scheme is the players understanding of the scheme, But That's not the scheme.

" harry, I'm not arguing that with you, I'm not, I'm not arguing that with you, ... I know he can get the job,, but can he do the job, ... I know, I know he can get the job, HARRY,, I'm not arguing that with you, .. I know, I know he can get the job, but can he Do the job? I'm not arguing that with you. . HARRY. " < a line from the movie, "Joe vs. the volcano"

It's not the dictionary definition of the "scheme" of course not.
It' not the DICTIONARY definition...
If they can't understand the scheme, it's not.. well how is it a good scheme? It's ...
They are 2 totally different things No

I don't think they are paying attention, NO, that's not what I said, I .. meant, I said I mean
if they can understand the scheme, then how is it the schemes fault?
can they, can they run the scheme right next time..
If they players can run the scheme then why didn't they just learn it. why didn't they just run it, if they learned it, or ..
Can somebody help me out here.
they are 2 totally different things. Who says? that they didn't have the ability to properly communicate the scheme to the players?
They didn't give it enough time?
I think they get it now. Just a little more time was all they needed.