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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Watson was sacked 49 times, he was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks (9th highest), and was hit 50 times (13th most). Of course, part of this is the result of how Watson plays the game.


Vers, what's the matter with you? The whole point of my post was that Watson performed a hundred times better in 2020 with the Texans than he did in his 6 games here. He had better weapons than what the Browns have currently, and the stats prove that - even so, he was only able to generate a 4-12 record. You can point to the defense all you want but the defense didn't have anything to do with the Texans poor red zone pct.

You also want to blame the sacks on his Texans line and maybe that has some validity but then explain why his sack per game average is higher in Cleveland with the supposed best OL in the NFL? FACT: Watson had the highest sack per game average of any Browns QB since 2016. Go ahead and whip out that QB excuse jug now that has only been reserved for Watson.

While you dig through that excuse jar, see if you can find one for the Browns red zone pct in 2022 that was the lowest it's been since 2017 with that then elite QB Kiser - lol.

Look, I understand you're a rah rah guy that wants to excuse every weak point the Browns have (like what's been going on for decades), but after sporting 2 losing seasons in a row - every player, coach and FO person should be heavily critiqued. This team, that has never even won the AFC North, is never going to get to that level with continually failing to address the same issues that are glaring reasons for their continued failure. On offense, the WR room is still weak, LT is a serious issue, center is a big question mark, questions of Chubb's fit in a passing offense, play calling continues to be suspect and the red zone offense is putrid after recording its worse percentage in 5-years. That's all before we even get to Watson's unexpected slow start and continued sack issues.

Defensively, except for Garrett, Emerson and Newsome, every other defensive player should be on notice because they completely failed to live up to expectations. Firing Woods might have been needed but unless the Browns do some serious upgrades on defense the results won't be much different. You can continue your rants and lashing out at other Browns fans, but the same team issues talked about in this forum in 2021 that you wanted to ignore are again being talked about in 2022. “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”

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I will point out that many on this very board said he would come back rusty and as his starts went on he would improve and begin to look like his old self.


For the record, I was one who thought that we'd see rust for the remainder of the season, and that it would be next season that we'd see the old pre-break Watson. Now, it remains to be seen if next year DW will return to form, but his performance this year didn't surprise me at all. 2 years is a very long time to be away.


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"every other defensive player should be on notice because they completely failed to live up to expectations."


Before bashing players and lumping them into categories perhaps it would be important to know

what they were asked to do in the schemes.

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Here is some rah rah:

"Despite back-to-back losing seasons, NFL executives around the league are still high on the Cleveland Browns and their chances in 2023. ESPN surveyed NFL executives around the league on a wide variety of questions, one of which was which teams would break through in 2023. The Browns, along with the Detroit Lions, received the most votes among those surveyed:

Regular season record in the first 3 seasons as head coach:

Kyle Shanahan 23-26
Sean McDermott 25-23
Pete Carroll 25-23
Kevin Stefanski 26-24

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I did not dig through anything. I quoted the stats and comments that appeared in a linked article.

If anyone has any doubts about Watson's performance in 2020 and who is right between steve and I, just let me know I will post more articles.......many of which I have already posted.

One more thing for you common sense folks. Why in God's name were so many teams so interested in acquiring Watson if he wasn't all that, especially considering his legal issues?


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Because he’s a top 5 QB, a potential franchise-changer. And that’s just how it is.


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2022: The Watson era begins.
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Exactly.


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Here is an article that I posted before. Let's just stop this nonsense that Watson wasn't all that in 2020 and his WRs made him. It's a better read if you click on the link.


Galina: Why Deshaun Watson was the NFL's best quarterback in 2020

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA; Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson (4) warms up before playing the Pittsburgh Steelers at Heinz Field. Mandatory Credit: Charles LeClaire-USA TODAY Sports

By Seth Galina
Feb 15, 2021
As much as we all try to separate the performances of different positions from their teammates in order to isolate production, players with stronger surroundings will always fare better than those without.

We’ve spent the past month praising Aaron Rodgers for his MVP 2020 season and bowing down to Tom Brady for his playoff run to a seventh Lombardi Trophy. And why shouldn’t we? Those two were the highest-graded quarterbacks of the entire 2020 season. They deserve praise. One could even argue that Rodgers’ season was one of the great quarterback campaigns of the PFF era (since 2006).


Of course, both signal-callers played on teams that allowed them to showcase their talents. Brady’s Buccaneers happened to boast a top-five defense to continually keep him ahead of the game in terms of field position and game state. Plus, he had the best receiving corps in the league.

Rodgers was given opportunities to find open receivers via Matt LaFleur’s wide-zone and play-action scheme, and he had arguably the best receiver in the league in Davante Adams. It’s hard to go back and look through the list of the great quarterback seasons of the past 15 years and find examples where quarterbacks did not have other elite factors going in their favor.

That’s why I’m ready to make the argument that Deshaun Watson was not only the best quarterback of 2020, but also that he had the best season of the past 15 years — and maybe ever.



Absolutely nothing went the Texans' way last year, and Watson still routinely played at an elite level. Former Houston head coach and general manager Bill O’Brien traded his team's best receiver, yet Watson played better than ever before. O’Brien was fired midseason, but it didn’t phase the quarterback. He played with a terrible defense, a terrible running game and no star receivers and put up the 19th-best regular-season passing grade of the PFF era (91.2). He’s one of 29 quarterbacks to finish a regular season with a 90.0-plus passing grade.

Those 29 quarterback seasons are generally regarded as the greatest individual campaigns of the past 15 years. Tom Brady’s 2007, Peyton Manning’s 2013 and Patrick Mahomes’ 2018 are all included in this group alongside Watson’s 2020.

Better surrounding factors allow a quarterback to stay away from negative plays. Being down in games forces the quarterback to attempt more difficult passes. Not having a running game puts the quarterback in more ominous down and distances. Not having receivers who can separate forces the quarterback to hold on to the ball.

And yet, Watson torched the league despite having nothing going in his favor.

We can start with the overall records for each of those 29 quarterbacks. If a signal-caller is having an elite year, chances are his team is doing well. Twenty-six of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams won at least 10 games that season. The quarterback is the most important factor, but you can assume that other factors were involved to get to that plateau of wins.

Twenty-eight of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams finished the season at .500 or above. The only team to finish below that threshold is the 2020 Houston Texans and their four wins. Better quarterback play has resulted in wins more often than not. Watson, even while being a part of this elite club, did not have any team support.

For starters, he didn’t have much of a defense. The Texans finished 31st in defensive expected points added per play in 2020. Only the 2006 Indianapolis Colts defense was worse from a league ranking perspective, as they finished 32nd the year that Manning carried them to a Super Bowl win.

Worst defense EPA ranks among 29 QBs with 90+ season grade in PFF era
QB Defense EPA Rank
25. Tom Brady, 2011 28th
26. Patrick Mahomes, 2018 28th
27. Andrew Luck, 2016 29th
28. Deshaun Watson, 2020 31st
29. Peyton Manning, 2006 32nd
Watson is also part of a group of 10 players who notched 90.0-plus passing grades despite their defenses finishing below 20th in the league in EPA. Philip Rivers’ 2010 season in San Diego topped the list, as the Chargers' defense finished second in the league that season.

The Texans also couldn’t run the ball. They finished 31st in 2020 in EPA per rushing play. The next worst unit was the 2019 Seattle Seahawks, who finished 28th in the league while Russell Wilson still produced a 90.0-plus grade. In fact, in 17 of the 29 seasons, the rushing EPA per play of the elite quarterback's team was in the top half of the league. At the top is Manning's 2007 Colts rushing attack, which finished first that year.

When it comes to surrounding talent in the passing game, Watson doesn’t fare as poorly but does find himself in the bottom-third in a couple of categories. The Texans' team pass-blocking grade ranked 19th among the 29 seasons. Aaron Rodgers’ 2014 season was at the top with a 92.1 team pass-blocking grade. And unsurprisingly, Rivers’ 2018 season was at the bottom with a 59.7 cumulative grade.

The 2020 Texans team receiving grade was 20th in this group. Andrew Luck’s 2016 season saw the Colts finish with a 75.5 receiving grade, the lowest in the sample, while the 2016 Falcons and Matt Ryan’s great season finished at the top.

From a macro scheme perspective, we can look at play-action rate and screen rate to see how protected these quarterbacks were. Play-action passes, whether they be RPOs or otherwise, tend to define the reads for a quarterback and create distractions for defenders that a regular dropback does not.

PFF has play-action data going back to the 2012 season, and Watson again comes in pretty low. For this, I used league rank in terms of percentage of throws that were off play action because of how play-action rates have risen throughout the NFL over time. The 2020 Texans sat at 28th in the league this season in play-action rate. Only Brady’s 2020 season and Ben Roethlisberger’s 2015 season were lower relative to the league at the time. The 2016 Falcons finished first in the NFL in play-action rate that year.

PFF's screen data goes back to 2011, and it provides similar results. Watson’s Texans placed 21st in the league in screen rate — 17th-lowest of the 23 players in this selection. Rodgers' 2020 season had him throw the second-highest rate of screens in the league, while Rivers’ 2018 was last at a league rank of 29th that year.

Watson’s 2020 season is at or near the bottom in almost all team categories. River’s 2018 campaign is rough from a scheme and offensive line perspective, but he played with a top-10 running game and defense. Luck’s 2016 season and Wilson’s 2019 campaign are almost as rough as Watson’s 2020.

A big part of PFF grades is the opportunity to have negative plays. If you are 2007 Tom Brady throwing to Randy Moss, your opportunity for negative plays is small. If you are 2016 Matt Ryan, who is not being asked to perform straight dropbacks often, your opportunity for negative plays is smaller. Rodgers playing behind David Bakhtiari, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Bryan Bulaga and Corey Linsley in 2014 limited the pressure he faced, and therefore, there was less of a chance to have a negative play.

It’s not to say those seasons aren't great — they are, undoubtedly — but Watson’s season, without any semblance of team help and still grading at that incredible level, might be the most impressive.

I’m less concerned with the supposed scheme issues than the talent surrounding Watson. The complaints about lack of play-action chances are definitely founded in reality. With Bill O’Brien coming from coaching Tom Brady, that’s the scheme he brought with him to Houston. No one complains when Brady’s coaches don’t call play action enough for him, because he can drop back and complete passes without it at an elite level.

That’s what happened with Watson this year. He didn’t need play action. Watson was the third-highest graded passer without play action, screens and RPOs this season, behind only Rodgers and barely behind Mahomes. Could the Texans have gone away from the “all-stick route” offense? Maybe, but Watson was playing at such an elite level that he was getting completions on any concept drawn up for him. These macro scheme complaints don’t really hold up when talking about the elite players in the game. Does Jared Goff need play action? Yes. Did Watson require it? No.

Did this stop me from making the same complaint? Also no.



Watson has always had this level of play in him, but like so many other quarterbacks, performing at such a level for an entire season proved difficult over his first three years in the league. Specifically, Watson's floor games of past seasons completely vanished in 2020. Over the first three years of his career, Watson had 12 games where his passing grade dipped under 60.0. He had no such games in 2020. And getting his turnover-worthy play percentage down to 2% from 3.6% in 2019 was part of that.

In the Texans' Week 3 matchup against the Steelers, Watson engineered a superb two-minute drill that showed everything he’s about right now. The Steelers would end the season ranked second in defensive EPA per play, and Watson tore them up. Getting the ball back with 1:14 left in the first half at their own 25, the Texans took five plays to get into the endzone, with Watson going a perfect 5-for-5.



We start with a quick hitch route to Brandin Cooks. Watson really could throw to either tight end Darren Fells or Cooks. On this concept, with the cornerback off, you are reading the first low defender. He immediately buzzes outside, which opens the throw to Fells, but Watson never believes he can get out fast enough to get under Cooks' route, either. He throws as soon as he finishes the end of his drop and puts the ball on Cooks' outside shoulder, where it should go.

On throws that we chart and bucket as “stick” throws, Watson’s adjusted completion percentage jumped from 76% over the previous two seasons to 92% this past year. His grade on those attempts was good enough for second-best in the league. He took what was given to him and kept the chains moving.



The Texans try to start picking up chunk yardage, so they call their sail concept hoping to find Randall Cobb in some space. The Steelers end up in Cover 3, but with the flat defender getting wide immediately off the snap, Cobb settles into the void instead of staying on the run to the sideline. The read for Watson is to quickly check if the outside receiver can win on his deep route and then to read that same flat defender for a high/low with Cobb and the running back.

Again, with the flat guy so wide, it creates space for Cobb to sit into. Watson reads it the same way and delivers into the void. He hammered Cover 3 this season to the tune of a 93.0 grade, which ranked second-best in the league during the regular season.



The Steelers are starting to get nervous and show like they are going to pressure Watson and play man coverage behind it. They end up rushing only four while playing man with a low-hole defender. Watson is looking to his right early in the drop and sees the player covering Fells run and open a window for Cooks on the in-breaking route.

The problem is that the Texans' offensive line has trouble picking up a stunt along the line of scrimmage, forcing Watson to come off his spot. When he’s ready to throw again, it looks like that low-hole defender spooks from throwing to Cooks, so he takes off into an opening and gets outside the pocket before finding Fells on the sideline for another first down.

Plays like this are where Watson really took his game to another level. We’ve always known he can move around outside the pocket, but he was throwing dimes when on the run in 2020. His grade improved from 67.6 on “scramble drill” plays in 2018 and 2019 to 94.5 this season, which led the league.



Again, the Steelers decide to blitz and play man coverage. Watson opens his dropback by looking to his right, but the man coverage on his wide receiver and the outside leverage on Fells by Cameron Sutton eliminates those two routes.

Watson moves his eyes to the left and finds Cobb again, this time on an in-breaking route, for another first down. Watson has always been good at these throws we chart as “horizontal leads.” He produced the third-highest grade in the league on these types of throws beyond 10 yards. He also led the league in the regular season on throws that we chart as “next read” — where his eyes had to work back across the field.



The touchdown throw is a beautiful drop in the bucket to Will Fuller V. The Steelers are showing man to man with one-high safety before the snap, and as long as that safety doesn’t fly over to the sideline, Watson is going to take his shot to Fuller. In rhythm. Beautiful throw. Six points.

This was Watson the whole season, even if the wins and traditional box score stats didn’t come with it. He took his game to the next level, and it’s why whenever you see potential trade packages for him, the return is astronomical.

If this is who Deshaun Watson is going forward — not a one-hit wonder — there are maybe four teams in the NFL that don’t need to take a look at him. Watson was the best quarterback in the league in 2020, and he arguably had the best season from a signal-caller in the past 15 years.


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-deshaun-watson-best-quarterback-2020-houston-texans


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If DW can come close to what he was 2 years ago and we can make the right moves to shore up our weak areas, we can seriously contend for a playoff spot in 2023. We really weren't that far off this year.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.


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However, you still didn't answer the question about his elite status only delivering a 4-12 record.

Check the defense from that year.... they were horrible... Watson was not the problem....


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Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.

Agree with you... I know he was a franchise QB in 2020... right now I'm not so sure... hoping he can get back to that form with a full off-season training and time in the system... but we'll see... he showed some flashes this year and got better each game, but he's not there yet....


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Here is an article that I posted before. Let's just stop this nonsense that Watson wasn't all that in 2020 and his WRs made him.


Show me where in my post that I said anything about Watson's receivers making him in Houston. Come on now, quote me the part where I said that. I get so tired of your lies. My post was pointing out in rebuttal to this post:
Originally Posted by Jaybird
Texans had no offensive weapons in the 4-12 season other than DW and Cooks... they made a horrible trade for Hopkins.... Fuller I think they cut or was hurt all year, and they had no running back...


The stats I posted proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1) Watson did have serious weapons on his 2020 team where he ended up the NFL's top-rated passer that year and 2) those weapons in 2020 had a better year scoring than the skill players that are on the Browns right now produced in 2022. Show me where I said that Watson wasn't all that!

It's also a fact that Watson had a higher sack rate per game 3.33 with the best offensive line in the NFL with Cleveland compared to his rate with such a poor line in Houston which was 3.06 sacks per game. It's also a fact that Watson's sack rate per game (5 game minimum) of 3.33 was the highest sack rate per game for a Browns QB since 2016. You cannot dispute those facts and only a simpleton wouldn't be concerned that Watson takes too many sacks and continues to show a trend of taking a lot of sacks.

Finally, the Browns 2022 offense had its poorest showing in red zone offense percentage since 2017 @ 53.6%. It's also a fact that even though he was loaded with weapons and was the top NFL rated passer in 2020, the Texans only had a 54.0% red zone offense in 2020. Considering the Browns red zone offense was 62.9% in 2021 and 73.6% in 2020 in Stefanski's two previous years, you're lying to yourself if this isn't a concern this off season.

If you want to post a rebuttal opinion to what I post that's fine but out and out lies are so childish it's comical.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.
Doesn't a @b only play as well as his 3rd WR and his offensive coaches' gameplan.


Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have?
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Originally Posted by Clemdawg
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I will point out that many on this very board said he would come back rusty and as his starts went on he would improve and begin to look like his old self.


For the record, I was one who thought that we'd see rust for the remainder of the season, and that it would be next season that we'd see the old pre-break Watson. Now, it remains to be seen if next year DW will return to form, but his performance this year didn't surprise me at all. 2 years is a very long time to be away.

I don't disagree with your opinion, quite the contrary. Some rust was expected but if you're truthful, except for one half, Watson's performance was disappointing. That's not to say or imply that he can't return to form but he's not close to where we thought he'd be and now he'll sit through another off season of 7 months before he's exposed to live action again. That doesn't even take into consideration the two (I believe there's still 2) civil cases to be litigated this off season which probably won't do him any favors if they make it to court. How all this plays out in his progression to his elite status for next season is anyone's guess at this time.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
If DW can come close to what he was 2 years ago and we can make the right moves to shore up our weak areas, we can seriously contend for a playoff spot in 2023. We really weren't that far off this year.

Man...I hope you are right about that. While I thought DW's play this year was worse than I was hoping/expecting...I'm a lot more concerned about the bolded part there ^ than I am with the prospect of DW getting back to top 10 QB form.

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I posted stats that showed the WRs were not all that w/out Watson. I also posted information from one article and an entire article that detailed Watson and Houston's season. Just ignore that and keep slinging your usual BS.


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I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I doubt that you would love for that to happen. You have done nothing but diss him since we traded for him while continuing to proclaim your belief in Baker Mayfield.

Tell me, QB Whisperer............why would multiple NFL teams be willing to trade 3 first round picks and more while paying him huge money if he was just "another guy on the shelf?"


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I posted stats that showed the WRs were not all that w/out Watson. I also posted information from one article and an entire article that detailed Watson and Houston's season. Just ignore that and keep slinging your usual BS.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I doubt that you would love for that to happen. You have done nothing but diss him since we traded for him while continuing to proclaim your belief in Baker Mayfield.

Tell me, QB Whisperer............why would multiple NFL teams be willing to trade 3 first round picks and more while paying him huge money if he was just "another guy on the shelf?"

Only person dishing BS on this forum is you. Even when people praise Watson you have to move the goalposts so you can spew some unrelated BS. Be critical and you revert back to the past that all posters have moved on from - but not you! Never mind ever answering or for heaven's sake admitting you are wrong, as long as you can continue to monopolize the forum with your hatred posts you are tickled. I can't express it enough how much fun this forum was while you were on your self-imposed hatred hiatus. Oh, how we long for those days again.

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Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.


First, above is "an accurate quote" of Daman's post..without quotation marks added or complete sentences left out just so "someone" could start an argument.

Daman, Homewood...DW is what he is, a QB who has a lot of work to do if he is ever going to return to the level of play he exhibited in 2020.

I think most fans are hoping he can return to the 2020 level quickly, but realistically, I expect his progress be a slow climb back. How quickly he returns to the 2020
level will depend on Watson's ability to absorb the playbook and the coaching staff's ability to teach the playbook...all unknowns.

Chances are the progress will be slower than some expect but hopefully by the end of 2023, Watson's play will be good enough to take the Browns to the playoffs.




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Did you read the article? Any comments or just more personal BS?


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It's best to use the link due to all the tweets, but here is another article about the 2020 season w/Watson and Houston.


WAS DESHAUN WATSON'S 2020 SEASON THE BEST BY A QUARTERBACK IN MORE THAN A DECADE?

FEBRUARY 16, 2021



No wonder Houston's holding on.

There has been no shortage of drama coming from the Houston Texans' camp over the past year, and the saga continues, with superstar quarterback Deshaun Watson still at odds with the franchise.

Despite Watson's trade request, the club has no intention of giving up its brightest star, and you can't blame it for that, as Watson had a phenomenal 2020 season, despite his team's struggles on and off the field.


According to Pro Football Focus, Watson took his game to the next level in 2020. His regular-season passing grade of 92.5 was the 19th-best regular-season grade recorded since 2006, when PFF began keeping complete statistical data for the league.


To put that in perspective, anything above a grade of 90.0 is considered historically great.

Watson is one of just 29 quarterbacks to finish a regular season with at least a 90.0 passing grade, and the other 28 all started under center for franchises that ended the season .500 or above. That makes Watson's feat for the 4-12 Texans even more impressive.

With a lack of support from the defense and run game and few offensive weapons, PFF argues that Watson was the league's best QB in 2020, finishing with the best single-season performance by a QB in the past 15 years.


But is PFF correct? Was Watson's campaign really the greatest by a QB in more than a decade?

On Tuesday's "Undisputed," Skip Bayless said yes.

"[Watson] did it in spite of the DeAndre Hopkins trade. It was a terrible move, and it was hard on him psychologically. ... He just dropped back and made it happen."


Watson was without All-Pro receiver DeAndre Hopkins – whom Houston shipped to Arizona in March for running back David Johnson, a 2020 second-round pick and a 2021 fourth-round pick – for the first time in his career.


Even without Hopkins, Watson led the NFL in total passing yards (4,823), ranked second in passer rating (112.4) and yards per game (301.4), and tied for seventh in touchdowns (33).

Both his passing yards and passing touchdowns set single-season franchise records, and Watson was one of four QBs in 2020 with at least 30 passing touchdowns and fewer than 10 interceptions.

He became the first player on a team with at least 12 losses to lead the NFL in passing yards since Jeff George did so with the 1997 Oakland Raiders. Watson did it all behind a porous offensive line, taking the second-most sacks in the league (49).


Not to mention that Johnson, the running back the Texans acquired in the Hopkins deal, didn't help the run game, as Houston averaged the second-fewest yards on the ground in the NFL (91.6).

Meanwhile, the team's 30th-ranked defense (416.8) was abysmal, allowing the most rushing yards per game of any team in the NFL (160.3) and the sixth-most points per game (29.0).

Despite everything Watson managed to achieve under those dire conditions, Shannon Sharpe doesn't think his latest achievements equate to the best season by a quarterback in nearly two decades.


Shannon compared Watson to the Green Bay Packers' Aaron Rodgers, who finished 2020 with one of the greatest quarterback campaigns of the PFF era.

Rodgers posted a 94.5 grade and league-best numbers in passer rating (121.5), completion percentage (70.7) and passing touchdowns (48).

Of course, he had one heck of a target in Davante Adams, who led the league in receiving touchdowns (18) and yards per game (98.1).


As Sharpe pointed out, Watson wasn't without weapons. Brandin Cooks managed to tally 1,150 receiving yards despite missing one game, and although Will Fuller played only 10 games, when he was on the field, Fuller ranked among the top 10 receivers in yards per game (79.9).

With help from Cooks and Fuller, Watson was able to rack up 10 games with at least 300 passing yards, more than any other QB in the regular season.


However you rank Watson's 2020 campaign, all eyes will be on him in 2021 – especially if he's suiting up in new colors.


https://www.foxsports.com/stories/n...nfls-best-quarterback-in-2020-pff-argues


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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Did you read the article? Any comments or just more personal BS?

Again, what the hell are you trying to prove with your unwarranted attacks? I didn't say anything about Watson having a poor year - I did say was even with his league leading passer rating they were still only 4-12, that he took a huge number of sacks which he has continued since becoming a Brown, and his red zone offense was very questionable for an elite QB and that trend has continued in Cleveland. Those are all facts you cannot dispute!

Do you read your own articles you post?
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
As Sharpe pointed out, Watson wasn't without weapons. Brandin Cooks managed to tally 1,150 receiving yards despite missing one game, and although Will Fuller played only 10 games, when he was on the field, Fuller ranked among the top 10 receivers in yards per game (79.9).
With help from Cooks and Fuller, Watson was able to rack up 10 games with at least 300 passing yards, more than any other QB in the regular season.


Quit trying to create an argument by posting lies. I said Watson had weapons in Houston. You are saying he didn't yet the article itself says he had weapons. Nobody gives a [censored] about what those receivers did after Watson quit on his teammates - they were bonafide NFL weapons on that 2020 team that did their part in helping Watson achieve his lofty elite status.

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I never said he didn't have weapons. I challenged you on just how good those weapons are. You are ignoring all kinds of things because you can't admit you were wrong. Again.


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Your article in itself describes how good his receivers were. Maybe you should read it. In fact, those receivers and including the TE's outperformed this year's Browns receivers in scoring.

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I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.


We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Here's a portion of an article talking about Watson's 2020 season. We can all post articles.

Is Deshaun Watson Currently Playing At A Top Five Level?
The numbers say he is. My heart says he isn’t.

By Matt Weston@Matt__Weston 2020

Football Outsiders’ efficiency and value numbers have Watson 5th in DVOA at 19.7% and 6th in DYAR at 661. Houston’s entire passing offense DVOA is 25.3%, which is 11th. Watson is the only player this year to not have a Pro Football Focus passing grade below 60, whatever the hell that means.

I get DVOA and DYAR. I understand what they mean and how they work. Pro Football Focus is unamerican; as an ethnocentrist, I hate them. Everything they seep out into the internet makes zero sense to me, but grades are grades.

My problem is that despite what the numbers say, that Watson has been a top five quarterback in the NFL this year, I’m just not completely sold on it.

I still feel a lot of this offense has been empty, with production coming from playing behind. Watson has had problems on third down. He’s missed crossing routes by throwing behind his receivers. The deep passing game has never gelled. There’s constant tumbling around the backfield because of the blitz, and again, the team has struggled to score points or do enough to make up for its atrocious defense.

This isn’t entirely Watson’s fault. It’s mainly because of the other things that form the offense: the talent, design, play calling, the structure of the offense itself. From a talent and ability perspective, Watson is a top five NFL quarterback. I just don’t think the numbers showing Watson has performed like a top five quarterback match what my eyes and heart are telling me.

I’ve asked this question to friends, family, podcast guests, and whoever else will talk to me. So, I ask you loyal reader, has Watson played at a top five level like the numbers say he has?

Poll
Is Deshaun Watson playing at a top five level?
This poll is closed

22% = Yes
(136 votes)

78% = No
(470 votes)
606 votes total

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j/c:

The Texans TEs that year consisted of multiple guys who had been released by the Browns.

Last edited by Versatile Dog; 01/25/23 12:33 PM.

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Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

Do you think his arm weakened while he was gone? Does one just lose the ability to process information? Has his athleticism suddenly vanished? Will he no longer study film? Will he not put in the work? Has his touch suddenly vanished and will never return? We watched those films where he is breaking down film w/the guys on NFL Network and how he displayed high level intelligence when it comes to reading defenses and coverages. Those abilities are lost in space somewhere? Other than some Baker fans saying that we don't know if he will be good or not next season, what other evidence do we have?

I will give my opinion in advance. While there are never any guarantees, I think the odds of him not regaining his greatness are miniscule. He struggled this year, but we might want to consider the circumstances before we just say that he somehow lost all of the many gifts he has.


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Mac you could be right about DW's slow climb back. We're the Browns. Does anyone think it will be easy for DW to return to form? Not with us and I hope I'm wrong. SF put in the last guy to be taken in the draft and he's playing great. We draft a QB first overall (TWICE) and other QB's in the first round and they all bust out. WE always seem to have to overcome more than everyone else.The Bengals have become a perfect example of what I'm saying. We haven't been able to turn it around for more than a year since we've come back in "99. Others do it in a couple of years and stay competitive. Sad and frustrating.

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Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Mac you could be right about DW's slow climb back. We're the Browns. Does anyone think it will be easy for DW to return to form? Not with us and I hope I'm wrong. SF put in the last guy to be taken in the draft and he's playing great. We draft a QB first overall (TWICE) and other QB's in the first round and they all bust out. WE always seem to have to overcome more than everyone else.The Bengals have become a perfect example of what I'm saying. We haven't been able to turn it around for more than a year since we've come back in "99. Others do it in a couple of years and stay competitive. Sad and frustrating.

In Burrow's rookie year the Bengals struggled, and Burrow got hurt. Their coach just finished dead last in the AFC North 2 straight years. There were calls to fire the coach. If they would have done that would the Bengals be where they are now? I don't think so. I would argue the Browns are further ahead of where the Bengal's were after Burrow's rookie year. Their defense was horrible, their offensive line was terrible, they're only hope was a rookie QB that showed promise who was coming off an injury. The Bengals were even laughed at and mocked for drafting Chase instead of an Olineman. They're QB got healthy, they had a good draft, picked up some key free agents and did so without breaking the bank and went to the super bowl.


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So what,,,,,,,,,,,,

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PFN low on Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson after 2022 Showing
Jacob Roach
Tue, January 24, 2023 at 10:30 AM EST

Quarterback Deshaun Watson struggled in his six games in 2022 after a prolonged absence from the Cleveland Browns. One of the biggest questions heading into 2023 surrounds his ability to return to form. This has caused some to be worried he won’t return to the elite player he was in 2020. Pro Football Network released their 2022 quarterback power rankings for the postseason and 2023 season and they have Watson near the bottom.

PFN’s rankings have Watson in their Tier 5 “concerning” tier with an overall ranking of 29th. It is understandable why he struggled and also why people are concerned he might not be able to bounce back.

There were flashes of the elite player the Browns traded for but also no consistent improvements over the six games. Now Watson gets a full offseason without splitting reps and a looming hiatus from the team. With that being said he absolutely should look better in 2023 and if he doesn’t it will set the franchise back for several more years.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

He didn't say there was an equal probability. Where did you pull that out of? Oh never mind, I know where. And as per usual anyone who even hints at questioning if watson will return to form must be a butt hurt baker fan. Do you have any idea how old and ridiculous that sounds? There is no guarantee watson will return to his 2020 form and production. None. I would certainly say the odds are greater that he will than that he won't. But you see, some people, such as yourself keeping proclaiming there's zero chance that he won't. That's just not true.

I forgot, you didn't guarantee it. You said there was a 0.005% chance that he wouldn't. Do you know what the astronomical odds that equals? I mean that's far longer odds than they gave Buster Douglas of beating Mike Tyson. That's where you see someone taking things to the extreme. Not everyone else.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by steve0255
PFN low on Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson after 2022 Showing
Jacob Roach
Tue, January 24, 2023 at 10:30 AM EST

Quarterback Deshaun Watson struggled in his six games in 2022 after a prolonged absence from the Cleveland Browns. One of the biggest questions heading into 2023 surrounds his ability to return to form. This has caused some to be worried he won’t return to the elite player he was in 2020. Pro Football Network released their 2022 quarterback power rankings for the postseason and 2023 season and they have Watson near the bottom.

PFN’s rankings have Watson in their Tier 5 “concerning” tier with an overall ranking of 29th. It is understandable why he struggled and also why people are concerned he might not be able to bounce back.

There were flashes of the elite player the Browns traded for but also no consistent improvements over the six games. Now Watson gets a full offseason without splitting reps and a looming hiatus from the team. With that being said he absolutely should look better in 2023 and if he doesn’t it will set the franchise back for several more years.

They have Sam Darnold and Andy Dalton ranked higher. Hahaha.

This is clearly a biased rankings and I get why, they need to crap on Deshaun because of the massage story. No one, literally no one is giving Watson any props.

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j/c

I would love to remove the personalities out of the discussion but we all know that will never happen at this point. But let's recap a few things I believe almost everyone can agree with.

Stefanski has been the HC of the Browns for three seasons now. In his first season he helped lead the Browns to a playoff game. I don't think hardly anyone would disagree that he accomplished that with a far inferior QB than what watson has shown his abilities were before deciding to sit out and demanding he be traded. Now I hope that doesn't evolve into people debating they why's of that decision because as I posted it, there's no doubt it was his decision to sit out and demand a trade despite the reason why. And the why's of it are irrelevant to this conversation.

And I don't even care about the reasons why Stefanski had had a worse record each of the following two seasons after the first. I think most of us know it goes far beyond Stefanski's ability to coach. Because even though some make it sound like the unforgivable sin to question Stefanski, I have always maintained he holds far more positives than negatives. But he certainly is by no means perfect or almost perfect. But he is certainly a good HC. Once again it would be nice if people didn't take things to the extreme to claim he's trash or a coaching God.

I believe anyone who knows the game at all or has watched multiple Texans games in the past knows watson at his peak is a far better QB than anything we've had here since the Browns return in 1999.

The Browns paid watson the largest guaranteed contract in the NFL. That's because they expect watson to return to the greatness he had once shown. You don't pay that kind of money to a QB if you don't believe you are getting a top 5 player at the QB position. Unless of course you think the people that agreed to pay him that money are morons. And I don't think those in this FO are morons. As with Stefanski, they will make mistakes and they will do good things. It's just part of the human condition. But it's only common sense that if they didn't think he was in the elite category in the NFL QB ranks, they wouldn't have given him that contract.

Up to that point I think we can for the most part agree. Other than the extremists in either direction that is. Now we get to the part where I think opinions will wildly vary and the divide will become large.

Now let's try and look at what they expected form that investment and what would be an honest expectation based on what they paid him. It's a five year contract. Every dollar of it is guaranteed. So each season represents one fifth of that contract. Now what fans think of this past season differs in regards to watson. On this very board we had a variety of expectations. For the most part fans felt he would be rusty to start. That we would see progress as he continued to play. And to some degree we did. The word rusty however is a word that varies from person to person. So did you think rusty would mean that the team would only be able to put up 10 points against the Bengals when we had beaten them 5 times in a row had put up 32 points against them only five games earlier? Or 10 points against the Saints? Or 14 points against the Steelers after scoring 29 against them in week 3? Or in your mind were you thinking that looked like a little more than rust? And while there were hints that watson was slowly improving, he threw 2 ugly int's in that last game against the Steelers. Now you can call that anything you like but I feel like those are legitimate questions and factual events.

So what should next year actually look like with watson at QB? I think we must consider Stefanski's first season here. He had a far inferior QB to work with and took this team to an 11-5 record. So would backing into the playoffs with say a 9-8 record be success? It would certainly fall short of what he did with a much lesser talent behind center.

And if you were the one's paying that contract to watson, would you think you paid to have a second season where you would still be dealing with being hampered by a QB trying to shake off the rust? That you really weren't going to compete in getting the success you were paying big money for until year three of that five year contract?

And before the usual suspects go off the rails, I'm not making any predictions here. But there's no way anyone can say what they saw was watson as a finished product compared to what was expected. So he will certainly be going into season two needing to progress. Nobody, no matter what they say can predict how long that process will take at this point. So while I know this will hurt the tender sensibilities of some, these are certainly questions moving forward and not everyone is going to sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya with you. That's not even how any of this is supposed to work.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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That may be right, I just posted it because it seemed so over the top. As far as getting props, Watson made his bed and that won't go away easily. I suspect it will ramp up as the case(s) get closer to going to court. It could be another ugly off season for Watson.

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Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
This is clearly a biased rankings and I get why, they need to crap on Deshaun because of the massage story. No one, literally no one is giving Watson any props.

I think it's a crap ranking too. Unless of course it was based on his play in 2022 and not basing it on any predicted progress made moving forward. But your reasoning that it is "because of the massage story" is totally made up and quite a reach. I mean had you ever heard of this site before? Because let me tell you what happens all the time and is far more likely than what you posted.

These unknowns, and even knowns like Bayless, say stupid and outrageous things all the time to get ratings, hits on their websites and blogs. That's how they gain notoriety.


Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.

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Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

Do you think his arm weakened while he was gone? Does one just lose the ability to process information? Has his athleticism suddenly vanished? Will he no longer study film? Will he not put in the work? Has his touch suddenly vanished and will never return? We watched those films where he is breaking down film w/the guys on NFL Network and how he displayed high level intelligence when it comes to reading defenses and coverages. Those abilities are lost in space somewhere? Other than some Baker fans saying that we don't know if he will be good or not next season, what other evidence do we have?

I will give my opinion in advance. While there are never any guarantees, I think the odds of him not regaining his greatness are miniscule. He struggled this year, but we might want to consider the circumstances before we just say that he somehow lost all of the many gifts he has.


Mainly because it is fact, we don't know if he will return to form. We hope he will, indication are that he should, but there are no guarantees.

I have found through my years that many peoples perceptions of things in the past are slightly better or worse than the what they truly were, which leads to expectations that may not fit the reality.

For the sake of the team, I hope and expect he will return to form or at least close to it but a couple years older. But in football, there are a lot of factor that affect outcomes, from teammates, coaches, training, age, and circumstances. As we look at the league today versus 3 years ago, the landscape has changed, let's hope DW can adapt and excel within it.


We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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Originally Posted by FloridaFan
Mainly because it is fact, we don't know if he will return to form. We hope he will, indication are that he should, but there are no guarantees.

Facts are not something that he accepts as a valid argument to any dispute. I am in 100% agreement with your opinion though. As you said, in football, there are a lot of factors that affect outcomes, from teammates, coaches, training, age, and circumstances. Not to worry though, he's already preparing that "Watson Only" excuse jar.

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